Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S12 Ep 9: Elizabeth Day

Episode Date: December 8, 2021

She’s a huge fan of our podcast and after several failed attempts (😜) we finally got the elegant, divine Elizabeth Day round to mums. Author, journalist, presenter & host of the hugely successful HOW TO FAIL podcast, Elizabeth talks to us about growing up in Northern Ireland, her love of potato cakes, eating Buddha bowls on repeat, being a cheese fanatic & falling in love. Elizabeth’s latest novel ‘Magpie’ is heading for the big screen and we can’t wait! The literary thriller became an instant Sunday Times bestseller and is well worth a read.Elizabeth, you’re always welcome back for more wine, we loved having you! It really was a gorgeous evening. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Matters. I'm Jessie Ware and I have not made an effort tonight and it doesn't mean that I don't love this guest tonight but I'm busy being a pop star by day and podcaster by night and I am feeling pretty stretched. It's a good job you've got a lot of support from your mother then, to be perfectly frank. I mean I did love you in my house this morning, but you are the queen of giving the children iPads. Darling, the first thing your daughter does is come and say, Grandma, can I look at your iPad? Yeah, and you give it to her.

Why not? Because... It's not chocolate. Can I just, on the subject of my daughter, so... I love what she wants from Father Christmas. You've got to listen to this. I said, have you written a letter to Father Christmas? So she said, not yet, Grandma.

I said, what are you going to ask for? A foot spa. She's five. I said, she said, I want one of those things where you put your feet in and it's got water and it relaxes you. She's my daughter. But I, yeah, Sam's just, I've just done a check in, check how he's doing with the three children. And apparently he's doing very, very well because he's much better at looking after children than me.

He's very good. Anyway, I said, you know, did you have the chicken korma with the microwavable rice so it makes your life easier? Yeah. Number two, loved it delicious number one wouldn't eat a piece of chicken what is nothing it's just a stage i've got some tortellini in the fridge i'll give you to take home oh god tortellini i don't know how they can be so excited by tortellini every day but But you know, lots of children love salmon. That I come across love salmon.

Oh, well, whoopee for them. Well, actually, it does look like... Maybe tonight they'll eat that. What have you made tonight, Mum? Well, I've made roasted salmon with salsa verde. So I've got too much salmon, to be honest. It's two sides of salmon. And you put it on a bed of tomatoes garlic capers and

thyme and then you put salsa verde in between the two sides and you roast it in the oven hang on hasn't this been next door in their freezer for a long time one has been next door in the freezer salmon who was this going to be for her okay so i only use one side so this might be a bit the bottom side might be a bit dry but given that we've got so much you cannot eat that bit so there's a reason that this this salmon dish has been saved for this particular guest I don't know why I just thought it would be nice it would be it's kind of not heavy I thought it is roasted on a bed of tomato. A friend made it for me and I thought it was delicious. But it was in the freezer because we've tried to, we've rescheduled this episode. Twice.

Yeah, it feels like more than that, Mum. I think once we had to reschedule and the last time she had COVID. Poor Elizabeth Day, who we are so excited to have, had COVID last time we were going to record. And it was around the time that Magpie, her Sunday Times bestseller. Which I've read. It came out and she was celebrating it. I must ask her because it says that Magpie, the film rights, have gone to James Norton Productions. So I wonder if it's the actor.

And he's going to be in it. Oh my God, this is so exciting. I wonder if he's going to be in it. Oh my God, this is so exciting. I wonder if he's going to be in it. So we now have Elizabeth Day, who we all know and love from the most successful How to Fail podcast, which is now going to be a TV series, which makes total sense.

She has one of the best interviews. Mum, you thought we were doing well with our old cookbook and my little foudoir. Well, forget about it. Elizabeth Day has a huge... Oh, she's at the door. She's got a huge... doing well with our old cookbook for my little food war well forget about it elizabeth day has a huge she's at the door she's got a huge well i'll talk to her about champagne darling ready for a drop Hi I hope you are

Oh my god this is going to be like a podcast I can't wait How much can we Psychoanalyse each other We just get people drunk That's a great tactic and I'm so up for it And also thank you for being so patient With all the like

We have tried doing this. So last time I was meant to come, I had what I thought was a bad cold. And I did lash of foot and it was bloody COVID. I know. So I was very glad I didn't come and like. When was it? Was it September the something?

It was around your book. Yeah. It was like. Well, did I get the book early? Because it was my holiday read. If it wasn't hardback, then you got it early. Wasn't hardback. Yes, then you got it early. Yeah. No, did I get the book early? Because it was my holiday read. If it wasn't hardback, then you got it early. It wasn't hardback. Yes, then you got it early.

Yeah. No, I loved it. Thank you so much. Now, I've got to ask you. Thank you. It's been, the TV rights have been sold. Yes. To James Norton.

Is that James Norton? James Norton? Yes. The fit actor. Yeah, I insisted. Is he going to be the bloke? Well, hopefully. He's got...

Psycho killer. He's so good. No, but he's Happy Valley. Yeah, he's like the fit psycho killer. Oh, that's psycho killer. Happy Valley, but also Prince Andre in One Piece. Like, he's the perfect combination of he could be good, but he could be...

Anyway. So I heard that his production company was interested and he runs it with this amazing woman called kitty and i was and they asked for a meeting they're like it can be over zoom i was like no no no i insist it has to be in person and i need to sit across from james norton and just gaze at him is he gorgeous yes but he's also just so nice and so insightful he he had a reading of is he bright yeah but he had this reading of jake the character in magpie beyond what i even had it was just amazing he just gave

this incredible like moving analysis and you were like signs it's yours baby you need to pay i'll just give it to you cheers to that congratulations muzzle talk oh shit well done yeah and cheers to you being here and it is yeah long overdue this but so much has gone on in this last year for you but i mean we'll gas and chat whilst we're chewing some salmon in a moment but you are on table manners you've always been a really big supporter of table fan i think fan is the correct word yeah so now's your time it is now your time to tell us about the start of your food journey with family let's let's paint the picture who was around the dinner table who were you eating with because i love this podcast so much and genuinely came to it as an ardent listener I was like these

are the things that I know Jessie and Lenny are going to ask me so I was like what's my first food memory yeah come on I remember I've forgotten about that one thank you so much thank you thank you Elizabeth actually my first memory ever was being in a pram and my bigger sister so she's four years older than me leaning into the pram offering me a bite of her apple which I obviously couldn't bite because I didn't have any teeth but I just remember that being and I loved food as a toddler I was a real podgy toddler where did you grow up grew up in Epsom was born in Epsom spent the first four years of my life there I'm half Swiss so my mother's originally fromitzerland so there's a lot of swiss food so we have a swiss birthday cake every year called a linzer torta which is oh my

gosh it's so delicious there's like an uh an almond a crushed almond crust and like raspberry jam center oh yeah of course that works of course it does so peanut butter and jam you know it tastes delicious i love that combination it tastes like that well it tastes like peanut butter and jam tastes delicious. I love that combination. It tastes like that. It tastes like almond butter and jam. Delicious. Yeah, it's very nice. I've just had one because it's just been my birthday. It's called a Linzer Tort.

Yes. And where did you get yours from? My mother. And then she made it for me. Where did you get it? Did she make it this year for you? Yes. She still makes me it.

What's your mum called? Christine. And was Christine a good cook then? Or a good baker well she won't mind my saying this she had very little interest in cooking because it was just one of those additional things that you had to do at the end of the day like cook for your kids and your husband it was like very much that era and i think she found it just one domestic duty too many so she never really enjoyed cooking although she did it yeah mum's nodding her head and mouthing quite yeah she never enjoyed it

but when she was good at it she was really good and also my granny my Swiss granny was an amazing cook and I sometimes think that must be quite hard to live up to as a daughter do you find that done yes mother yes absolutely and my mother was really health conscious in a in a kind of congruent way it didn't feel like oh now you're not allowed to eat chocolate or anything but I grew up eating a lot of salads and fresh vegetables and she never cooked with salt so so until I was 18 I never added any salt to my food I just got really used to it and then when I was 18 I discovered salt like when other people discover drugs I was 18, I never added any salt to my food. I just got really used to it. And then when I was 18, I discovered salt. Like when other people discover drugs, I was like, salt is amazing. And now I'm a salt fanatic.

She's amazing, isn't her? Yes. I'm making up for lost time. But she had some classics, which I still really like. Like a spinach flan. It's not a flanage and tortage, isn't it? Spinach flan was delicious. She still makes this ratatouille, which is really yummy.

What's so good about her ratatouille? Does she pre-bake the vegetables? Because, no offence, Mum, I love you to death, but your ratatouille was never my favourite because it was slightly sloppy. Those courgettes looked very sad. Oh, Lenny. I don't even know what to say it's a stew darling it's a kind of vegetable stew i mean you can do it roasted and it does taste

better less wet i don't mind it was your mother's wet yes it probably was quite wet but i suppose i've never really had it another way. And she cooked it with oregano, which I know your American listeners will refer to as oregano. Yeah, I love that you think we are. We are international, of course we are. It sounds quite healthy then. Were you fussy or not? Not at all.

I would eat anything and still do, apart from things I'm actively allergic to. Well, you're allergic to caviar and oysters. I'm sad for you. You sound like the worst and most elite person ever. But I do love that you thought we were going to do caviar or oysters. I mean, your expectations were quite high, babe. You got salmon, baked salmon.

You did get champagne. Yeah, I got champagne. Thank you so much. Well, you do like champagne. And you like going out. Me too. One of our favourites, Dolly Alderton and you at the River Cafe, sure. I know, at the weekend.

That's quite fabulous. I suddenly discovered how much I love a lunch where there's nothing else to do in the rest of the day. Yeah. With one of your best friends. I don't even remember those days, but yes. It was just, so Dolly took me out for my birthday. We went to the River Cafe, exquisite food.

And we were there from noon until like 5.30. At which stage I went home to bed. I went home and just like watched married at first sight and rolled around the sofa dolly went to her 50th birthday dinner because that's who she is and that's who i am you're both equally fabulous and i just love it that's the biggest compliment thank you has it been kind of amazing for you to both pat yourselves on the back and pat each other on the back for the success of your you know the fact that you've got film rights for magpie you know she's doing everything i know about love you you've kind you came from journalistic worlds it's kind of amazing

you're leading not similar lives but you're on the same trajectory i mean i take that as a huge compliment because dolly is 10 years younger than me, but Blaze is a trail for me, actually. And as you know, because I know she's been on this podcast, she's so wise beyond her years and extremely generous to other women. And so I feel like I'm really playing catch up and nowhere at her level at all. But it has been really wonderful to have someone who understands

the particular nuances and complexities of balancing journalism with podcasts and then potential TV stuff. And she had such a deserved but rapid rise to the public eye. And I learned a lot from her and how she dealt with that with such kind of grace under pressure because she works incredibly hard and that and as do you Jessie like that's the thing that I think sometimes gets overlooked particularly with successful women you often get called like a lucky girl and I'm like yes so much luck has gone into any person's success, but also you make the circumstances for that to happen. And Dolly's a classic example of that, of working hard.

But, you know, we talked about this when I was on your podcast, How to Fail, which needs no introduction, but we talked about the fact that there was like this moment where you got recognised in the sense of How to Fail was doing really really well then memoir work you know it's okay it starts working you're like hang on I've been doing novels before this but then now magpie is hit right yes how many novels have you did you do before four four so magpie is my fifth novel and my seventh book do you feel like everything has

just kind of the stars have aligned? Yeah. I totally do. And I don't think it's any coincidence. But that is hard work though. It is hard work. And perseverance and tenacity and all of that. Yes. And I'm glad it's happened this way round.

Even though it was an awful lot of hard work because I'm so grateful because I know what it's like to write a novel and not have any attention. And to like believe in the book that you put out there but not get as as many people buying it or reading it and so I'm so grateful to the podcast for giving me the platform that I never anticipated at all and I think podcasting is quite a democratic form isn't it you can just do your thing and put it out there

and hopefully people listen yeah and I know that people who listen to the podcast have have put their faith in me and therefore decided to buy magpie and that's been amazing and and like wonderful and it also comes with a degree of added pressure so there are more demands on my time and I just have to get better at boundaries and saying no which I'm terrible at because I'm so grateful so it's this kind of so I've had I've got to get better at boundaries and saying no, which I'm terrible at because I'm so grateful. So I've got to have a real talking to myself. And next year will be my year of saying polite no's and enforcing my boundaries. I'm really hungry.

Oh, what are we having? I cannot wait. So what are we having, Mum? Because right so what are we having mum because i've done nothing we're having roasted salmon delicious salsa verde and it's on a bed of tomatoes it's a rick stein recipe so let's hope it works and then what are you serving i'm serving it just with charlotte potatoes and some beans. Delicious. Just simple. Delicious. That is so my kind of meal. And then I've made plum clafoutis.

Yum! Well, I haven't made it yet. That's so good. What did you eat at River Cafe? I ate scallops and pumpkin to start, which was nice. Oh, I've never put that together. No, I've had scallops with like sweet mashed potato and chorizo this was like a similar sort of vibe

but actually the pumpkin came with this kind of I don't know nutty subtleness which was really nice and then we both had ricotta ravioli with walnut sauce oh nice and I didn't add any salt at all thank you

and normally I just find all food needs a little bit, pinch of salt. And not at the River Cafe. But not at the River Cafe. Did you get the pizzetti as well? We had to begin with the farinara. It's like a chickpea pancake. Oh, yum. That was really nice.

And what was the pud? I went for, now by this stage, I'd had quite a bit to drink, so I can't fully remember. We were drinking, okay, this will make everyone just well this hopefully will restore people's faith in hinge because I met my husband on hinge yeah he sent us a bottle of champagne to our table oh my god I love him I love him too I love him so okay let's talk about Justin for a sec first day talk about internet dating oh yeah yeah I mean how how many dates did you go on like using hinge or had you done lots of internet dating before no uh no so well yes and no so basically my situation how to fail was born out of a failed

relationship and actually a lot of failures in my 30s so I have been married before and I got married to the wrong person and then got divorced when I realized that and that was in my mid-30s so I was 36 when I got divorced and then um I had a bit of time being single you're about 32 now I love you so much you've got to go on I don't even know how old you are i've just turned 43 fuck off yeah don't look it oh my god that makes me feel very happy 43 yeah so when did you meet justin so i met justin when i was 39 so i was single for a bit and then i met classic cliche i'd be married to an older man i met a younger man i had a relationship which was delightfully responsibility free and with someone really nice after you'd broken up with the this was after I got divorced okay got it yeah okay and we went out for about two years and he ended that relationship

three weeks before my 39th birthday and it was so shocking and so out of the blue and one of the worst periods of my life because it felt like I'd made all of these decisions, and I'd ended up back kind of alone, without children, without the family that I really wanted, and I was like, oh my god, it's going to take me ages to find anyone again, and I was a bit kind of lost. That's how How to Fail started, because I just wanted to ask other people about how they cope with failure. And it's also when my internet dating started. So that's when I downloaded the apps because I was very much like, I need to be strategic about this. You know, the dating pool is much smaller when you're 39.

And I just need to get out there and meet as many people as possible. I can't imagine it's small when you're a gorgeous, accomplished woman. Was it hard dating? It was probably easy for them. It was really hard, and it taught me a lot about myself. And I started off doing Bumble, which actually I ended up not liking, because that's where the women make the first move. And you think that sounds really empowering,

but actually it makes you feel... Rejected. Really rejected, constantly. And I went on a lot of dates and it was that thing of I'm pretty good at text because I'm a writer I really enjoy that kind of text banter and then the anticipation would matter that the anticipation is always better than the reality 100% then you'd walk in and instantly I would feel oh there's no chemistry there at all and it would be so soul-crushing or there'd be those those rare moments where you're like actually there is something there and they wouldn't be interested and they wouldn't reply

it's like a hundred blind that's why I could never do in tech dating because it's like a hundred blind dates I hate that you could go on a blind date not fancy the person but they don't fancy you and you feel rejected I think that's what I think is so tricky it's so difficult and in the end when I say it taught me a lot about myself I suppose it taught me that very often when someone rejects you it's not to do with you it's to do with their own personal baggage and history and what they've been through and whether they find it easy to trust people or whether they're going to constantly keep going for the wrong type and what I now realize is that I was going for the wrong type so I was attracted to the wrong kind of person for me and I lost a lot of

faith in my judgment and internet dating although it was soul-crushing made me a better judge of what I wanted so okay who made the first move with Justin and you so with Justin I got to the I was like I'm done with the apps deleted them all i started doing like real life hookups that makes it sound like it was sexual good for you no okay fine and then there was one morning and it was march and it was snowing and i'd been invited to my friend's 40th and i was like i don't want to go because they all they'll all have their kids there and they're all married and stuff and i was like i'm really sorry I'm not gonna be able to make it because the train's delayed because of the snow and I remembered a friend of mine in LA had mentioned

Hinge this app which at the time was still relatively unknown I downloaded Hinge I was like I'll just while away a couple of hours like this Justin was the first person I connected with the first person to message me the only person I went on a date with and he was so persistent and consistent in his communication so we had two weeks of him texting me like every day and it tells you a lot about the emotional fuckwits that I was seeing that I found sorry Lenny for swearing um I that I had been so warped by those experiences that I thought it was weird that this guy was texting me every day

I was like why does he text me every day did it put you off for a moment slightly, I was like this is a bit weird, it's a bit stalky isn't it he's telling me what he did with his day but he was keen and a proper person he was just being a grown up and in the end he was like Elizabeth a grown up yeah and in the end

he was like Elizabeth I'd like to meet you and I was like I like this masterful tone and he's like I'd like to meet you

I'm travelling a lot for work over the next few weeks these are your options we could either meet for coffee which is very low risk because you might

hate me but it'll be quite quick how sweet he's got the kindest face I don't know him but he's got those eyes he's so kind he really is because i see him i follow them on instagram oh my god i don't follow you justin i'll show you

yeah i'll show you a lovely kind um and then he's like we could go for lunch and we'd get a free meal but it would be slightly longer in my company or we could meet for a cocktail i was like i like option c me too where did too. Where did you go? Where did you go? We went to, it no longer exists. It was called the Dandelion Bar. It's been renamed

in the Mondrian Hotel in C Containers, London, which just has changed. Which changes all the time though. Changes all the time. It's such a quick turnover. Yeah. And I thought,

I'll just go on this date because he seems quite nice. He suggested this then. He suggested it. And what's your cocktail? Margarita. And what was his? his oh my cocktail at the time yeah I think was possibly a vodka martini and his is a gin martini okay so there was a little like there was a little martini mimes yeah um and he his photos oninge did him absolutely no justice. So I had quite low expectations for the date

to the extent that the day before... You didn't dress up. You looked like Jessie Lutz tonight. Jessie Lutz is beautiful. No makeup. If I looked like Jessie Lutz with no makeup, I would have worn no makeup. I had booked tickets to move to LA full-time. I was like, I'll just get this date out of the way and then it will be my new life when tickets to move to LA full-time I was like I'll just get this date out

the way and then that's it will be my new life and I'm off to LA and then I walked into the bar and was assailed visually assailed by this incredibly handsome man I was like oh my gosh and I just there was an immediate connection and and he was so great But it took me a really long time to trust that. And I think, you know, we'd both been kind of burned before. And he is also divorced. So it's a second marriage for both of us. And we'd just like been through it a bit. So we were much clearer about what we wanted.

But we were also, it took us a long time to kind of open up and be vulnerable with each other. So there was quite a bit of sort of skirting around things for the first six months. And then when we said that we loved each other, that was it. And that was the commitment. And he's amazing. And he'll hate that I'm talking about him

because he's incredibly private. But he really is just like the most amazing man I've ever met. And I feel extraordinarily lucky. So How to Fail is going to be a TV show. Well very early stages so How to Fail the podcast spawned a sort of memoir sort of manifesto also called how to fail and uh that came out in 2019 and it was it has sort of thematic chapters so there's like how to fail at anger how to fail at dating how to fail at babies how to fail at friendships all that sort of stuff and um i was approached by a production company who wanted to fictionalize those experiences in a sort of drama with tinges of comedy and I've never been interested in adapting my own work because I think it's a

totally different skill set and I'm wildly intimidated by it but for some reason because it was non-fiction and because I'd drawn from my own life it felt less wild to contemplate doing it yeah so that's a very long-winded way of saying i'm writing a pilot script at the moment for sky who've commissioned this pilot and i'm sort of learning as i go but it will be a fictionalized version yes so okay kind of like the everything i know about love is a fictionalized version of Dolly's book yes it's a kind of similar world we're thinking about no not well but like exactly I'm just trying to copy Dolly no no no that's really exactly so there's a character in it called Liza and she has a job on a Sunday

newspaper and she has some of my experiences but she's a completely different character from me. Yeah. And she's got two best friends and it's like, and it's, yeah, it's about, there's a whole sort of fertility storyline in there which is stuff that I went through

that I really, It's really important to see on TV. I totally agree. And to see in a way that's real and I feel like written by someone who's actually been through it is important. So are you writing it? Are you doing it,

writing with somebody else that, I mean'm writing it you're writing it yeah but the production company have been amazing because um three of them sat in a room with me over a week and we basically storyboarded the whole first season and where it would go and it was my first experience of like writing really collaboratively did you like it i loved it because normally writing is really solitary as you know yeah i did not enjoy writing on my own shall i just serve you yes thank you so much um delicious yeah i just live here can i just i feel like we're semi-related because i'm now 18.2 ashkenazi jewish i messaged you about that well you know what and I did a DNA I got it for my husband after you got it for Justin your kid no Justin got it for me

Justin got it for you the same thing so I got it for my husband for our anniversary that's a great present because I was like you've just done your did you do ancestry no i did 23 and me okay i did ancestry i don't know why i did that one but yeah it was very um how do you feel now that you know that you're a bit jewish thank you so much that looks delicious um help yourself i feel thrilled because i've always felt quite jewish and i remember i once interviewed rachel vice lovely rachel vice and she said halfway through the interview she's, you feel really familiar. Like, have we met before? And I was like, and I was like, you feel really familiar to me too, but I don't think we have

met before. And then I've read that she's Askenager Jewish, so we're probably cousins. I was thrilled. I'm absolutely thrilled. Thank you. Did they say what region you were from? Yes, like basically outside Hamburg. Oh so so i knew that i had german ancestry i'll have one more thank you that looks so nice um i knew i had german ancestry but i

hadn't realized that they were all ashkenazi jewish and they were all marrying each other yeah that looks amazing thank you so much you've got like you have a steak of salmon. I think by the time you take off the skin. So mum, you've done the salsa verde inside. Yum. It looks so pretty. Does it? Yes. Gorgeous.

You're going to help yourself to wine. I will help myself, okay. Thank you. How can it not taste salty when I put loads of salt on? That's delicious. It's very nice, mum. That is perfectly cooked. Cooked to perfection, mother.

How long do you leave it in for? It was was half an hour but it was two sides of salmon um i think this is a really nice this is so good it's a nice recipe mom yeah are you a good cook i am a good cook are you just gonna claim it but justin is much better than i am oh god he's so much better and he and he actively enjoys cooking so during lockdown I got quite lazy and he would just produce these really nice meals and he likes following a complicated recipe whereas I'm the kind of I'm a more instinctive cook where I'll just like do whatever I have lying around I'll sort of put together and I'm also a terrible one for like discovering something I like and then eating that every single night for six months if I can if before I was married and when I was single that's what I would do so what was the dish that springs to mind I would do um one of the you know

you get those kind of buddha bowls yes the worst name but I do a kind of melange of like quinoa and spiralized courgette and a bit of salmon and some pesto. And pesto mixed in with yoghurt or creme fraiche. It's delicious. It's all you want with some seeds. You feel really virtuous afterwards. Eat, pray, love. Exactly.

So I liked a bit of that. You can't taste chilli in this, can you? No, is there chilli? Yeah. I do like it though, Mum. It's very nice. It's really good. Well done, Rick Stein.

You're quite good. So, what's Justin's dish? I mean, he seems to do everything. He's quite... What's the cookbook that you're going to at the moment? He likes oselengi, like everyone else. Of course, complicated dish. Yeah.

So, he does a great kind of aubergine parmigiana. It's so delicious. And he also does an amazing slow roast lamb with kind of butternut squash and really delicious Lebanese rice with pomegranate seeds. Lovely. Lebanese is my favourite cuisine, I think. And he's also just half Italian,

so he makes his own pasta and all of that. He's an absolute keeper. It's like I've made him up yeah it is actually hello Table Manners listeners I just wanted to let you know about my new podcast Is It Normal? The Pregnancy Podcast which follows my pregnancy journey and with the help of some brilliant experts will reassure and inform you about all

aspects of pregnancy and giving birth. Throughout my pregnancy, I spoke to consultants, midwives, obstetricians, sonographers, mental health experts, doulas, home birth midwives, reflexologists, the list goes on. And with the help of questions from other pregnant people, the podcast covers as many aspects of pregnancy and giving birth as possible. I'd love you to have a listen and please let your pregnant friends know about it. You can subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, Acast or wherever you get your podcasts.

So Lenny, what are you watching on TV at the moment? Mostly medical dramas. She loves medical dramas. I love medical dramas. What's the Chicago... Oh, no, Amsterdam. New Amsterdam. Grey's Anatomy, of course.

The Resident. ER. Have you re-watched all of ER? No, I loved Dr. Green so much that I could never watch him again. Dramatic. Who else was there? Did you used to watch Casualty?

Chicago Med. Is it still on? Of course it is. No, I'm not. It's the most watched programme on TV. Why do you think it's still going? Why do you think it's still going? Because it's so popular.

They forgot to turn off after i also watch i watch ambulance i watch 24 hours in ame i watch i mean that's why maybe you should retrain as a doctor you know my dad's a doctor and he the only thing he watched was casualty and he said it was very representative absolutely accurate what kind of doctor was he he was a general surgeon he's retired now so which is basically in the midsection oh yeah i didn't know that so not like what's a gastro yeah he'd do a lot of kind of bowels just a nice topic but he also latterly got into war zone surgery so i grew up in northern ireland and he did a lot of kind of post bomb

surgery on victims what was it what was it like growing up in northern ireland um it was a weird combination of being so i obviously speak with an english accent my parents are english and i never picked up the northern irish accent and it wasn't modern or patterned. My father was Northern Irish. Are you joking? No, he was born in Belfast. How long were you there for? My parents were there for 22 years. We moved out when I was four, so my dad got a job at the General. Oh, so it didn't touch the accent. It didn't touch me. And I went to school there until I was 13 and I didn't have a very good time at secondary school partly because I spoke with an English accent and um I ended up getting a scholarship to a boarding school in England and so then when I did that I would come

home every holiday but I wasn't like living there day to day and I think it's only as an adult I realize and I've spoken to other people about this, including Jamie Dornan, who is younger than me, but he went to the same school as me in Belfast. And we were chatting about it, and actually, it was quite traumatic for an entire generation of children, because we were essentially growing up in a war zone.

There were bombs going off, left, right and centre, and it was quite scary. And I didn't realise that at the time because I just accepted it as my reality but now looking back I think it definitely affected me and I think it probably made me into a writer because I became quite used to being quiet and not speaking because I didn't want people to judge me on my voice and so I think I became quite observational and it's one of those cultures where so much of

the most important stuff is left unsaid and that's what fascinates me as a writer as well what's a memory from Northern Ireland with food what is something that really bring you back there the thing that I loved most two things I loved a potato cake a potato farm that you could just oh my gosh it's almost like it looks almost like a flatbread but it's thicker

but it's made out of potato they call them potato files it's not like a rosti or anything no it's the one that Gaga used to get did she get one? Yeah, and you put a little bit of melted butter on the top. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A load of melted butter. And they're quite sweet, but like a bit... Claggy. Yeah, a bit claggy. A bit claggy kind of flour on the top. Yes. I would put one in a toaster, and it would come out, and I'd put loads of butter on it,

and then a few slices of cheese. Just cheese and potatoes. You can't go wrong. Do you still get potato cakes? Yes, you can get potato at Fars. potato cakes yes you can get potato i feel like they're too posh now i like the really i know paul rankin makes them but they don't taste the same as the ones of my youth the other thing that i loved was the local supermarket stewart's had a pizza bar and this was at a time when pizza i feel like it was really cutting it it was really cutting edge and so you got to choose whatever you put on and i was like i'll have peppers and

chorizo and i remember that being so exciting as a child to be in control of your dinner i want to ask you what your last supper would be now do you want to go to a desert island or do you want to be on death row? Oh, God. Well, I mean... No, please don't. Who wants to be on death row? No one wants to be on death row.

If you're going away for six months and this is your last supper... The thing I like about the death row scenario is that you don't have to care what impact that meal will have on you because I want to eat everything. Okay, fine. But I'd rather, just for the sake of optimism, be on the desert island. like what impact that meal will have on you because I want to eat everything okay fine but I'd rather just for the sake of optimism yeah fine okay but can it not be too hot when I'm

eating my last meal because oh yeah okay you can choose the temperature you can tell that I've thought about this a lot yeah because I'm like I've just always dreamed of being on this podcast yeah okay yeah I'm excited about this answer so I would start with a perfect avocado vinaigrette. Ooh. Preferably from the Wolsey because I don't know how they do it, but they always get a perfectly right avocado

and I love their vinaigrette. I just love the Wolsey. So do I. Do you? Is it basic to love the Wolsey? I don't care. Because I love it so much. I put it in Magpie.

I know. The food is incredible. No, it is good. The atmosphere, it depends what you order and the atmosphere is always amazing. They do,

we went for the funny first night. I vomited it all off because the eggs bend in. I'd rather go to the, I'd rather have the Bellinger. They're both the same people. Yeah, it is the same people but I think the food's a bit,

the Delorne I like. I think the food's slightly better at Bellinger. I don't, I'm with you on the Woolsey. I just like it. It's so special. I feel like I'm in the blitz.

Has your cocktail taste changed? Over the years? Yeah. Definitely. Are you still on margaritas and martinis? I got massive beans and margaritas during lockdown. I never had them before, but I love tequila and mezcal. Because I feel like it's really...

Shall I go and get you a drop, Elizabeth? Do you have some? No, I've got some tequila and mezcal because I feel like Shall I go and get you a drop Elizabeth? Do you have some? No I've got some tequila that I made something It's got a sombrero on it Yeah no that's really I bought it for cooking I bought it for cooking I'll bring you mezcal next time

I'm loving this wine Yeah it's really nice I've got loads of bottles of that So avocado vinaigrette stop I'll bring you mezcal next time. No, I'm loving this wine. Good. Yeah, it's really nice. Good, darling. I've got loads of bottles of that. So, okay. So, avocado vinaigrette, stop. Actually, do you know what? I'd start with a vodka martini, dry, with an olive.

You like dry things. You're not... I love dry. I'm very savoury and not sweet. Oh, would you rather not have the claffer tea? Because I've got a bit of cheese in the fridge. No, because claffer tea is quite a savoury pudding. Is it?

I think so. It's a batter, isn't it? Yeah. It's not sweet sweet. So anyway, I'd start with an avocado vinaigrette and then for mine, I'm going to have a pasta course and then a main. A preemie. Someone's been to the River Cafe recently. Come on. And I'm just going to be really unoriginal

and have that pasta dish that I had at the River Cafe which was ricotta ravioli with a walnut sauce because it really was that good. I wonder how you make a walnut sauce. I know, it's intriguing, isn't it? Did it have a tang? You see, I don't like eating raw walnuts on their own. What they do is toast it and then just liquidise it with something.

The other thing that was amazing about that dish is that it came with the parmesan already grated on it. And because I am a huge cheese fanatic came with the parmesan already grated on it and because i am a huge i love parmesan i normally want a whole shed load i want a bowl of my own can i ask you a really big question yes do you have parmesan on seafood always me too and i hate they look at you when you say and you have to say look i know it's not right, but please can I have parmesan on my seafood pasta? Why is it not right? Because seafood comes... You shouldn't mix cheese with fish.

Who says? That's what they say. That's absolute bullshit. No. Who says that, though? Just Italians? Yeah, Italians. They say no cheese with fish.

Okay, well... Okay, so I'm going to have that pasta. Give me that plate because it looks revolting for you. Do you want... You didn't want any more? No. She had literally, like... literally it was huge it was so yummy um then i would have a lobster um like a specific dish that i had actually it was rick stein i went to not rick stein's restaurant in pasto but his kind of franchise pub there's a pub pub that Rick Stein owns in Padstow where I had the best lobster and in like with clarified butter

and it came with this delicious broccoli side with like anchovies and capers on it. And it was exquisite. So I would like lobster, but instead of French fries, I would like, I think, potato dauphinoise. Oh my God.

Quite rich. I know, but it's my last meal. I know, I my god I know but it's my last meal I know I wouldn't normally but it's my last meal so I just want all my favourite things and then the continental way of doing this and I know this because I because of my Swiss heritage is to have cheese before pudding I know

but I like to carry on with the cheese exactly so I have the pudding then I have the grapes out. And we just go all night. And celery sticks. It's nice, yes. And I think that's what I'm going to do. And because I prefer cheese to most puddings, but not clafoutis,

it would be nice to end with the cheese. So for pudding, I would like my Mother's Eve's pudding, which is... Oh. Oh, my God, it was so good. Mashed apple. Yeah. And then just a sponge on top.

But like sometimes the sponge was like left slightly uncooked at the bottom. And so it was going to go into the apple and it was so delicious. And she always, that was, that's my favorite of her puddings. What do you call it? An Eve's pudding. No one's ever talked about it.

Is it quite seventies? It's possibly quite seventies. That's why. And then after an eve's pudding no one's ever talked about is it quite 70s it's possibly quite 70s that's why and then after the east pudding i would have a massive cheese board yeah i don't want blue cheese see i love a blue cheese that's it i mean maybe i've got a blue stick in the fridge that i love it's lester with blue in it yeah what was your wedding cake a cheesecake one of those cheese things. Did we have one? I don't think we, well,

no, I think we didn't have one. We had apple crumble. We didn't cut a cake. I think, oh, I like that you had an apple crumble. Yeah.

We didn't cut anything. It just seemed. What was your first dance? I didn't have a first dance. Oh, for fuck's sake. I'm so sorry. I can talk about my first wedding

where I did do all of those things. I did do all of those things. What was your first... The first dance for your first wedding? The first dance for the first wedding was Love Cats by The Cure. That was quite good, even though the marriage didn't work out. It was a good choice.

The cake was made by my sister for the first wedding. It was just like a conventional fruitcake. So... I just feel like this time around, we just didn't want to do the wedding-y things. We just wanted to just be together, in a way. What your song with justin though have you talked about this we have and we don't i feel like we don't yet have one we don't yet have uh oh no sorry that's a complete lie well they did that we do have one so i walked that walked into the foolly at the Pig to Etta James at last.

Oh, gorgeous. And then we walked out to my favourite song, which I think has become our favourite song, which is House of Pain Jump Around. Which is quite a gear change. But it just makes me so happy. How did you learn that about each other? Because at my 40th birthday,

which I had quite soon after meeting Justin, I had a party and I insisted the DJ, who was absolutely amazing. It was just like a local bar in Kentish Town and it had this underground room that they rented out. And he was a part-time barman and a part-time DJ. And I said to him, the only thing that you're allowed to play

is like 90s hip hop. Like that's the only genre and you're not allowed to take any requests and he was as good as his word yeah it was absolutely amazing to the extent that my friend julie went up and asked for donna summer he was like i'm afraid i'm not at liberty to play that and they and he played house of pain jump around and i was like up on the bonkette like doing the rap in a really embarrassing white woman way but Justin has known since then that I love that particular track. I love that.

I love that. I've never made this before. It smells so good. I'm enjoying this. It's slightly like a bread and butter pudding. That's what it is. It's batter darling. It's so good. Coming from someone who doesn't love puddings this is delicious.

It's got that slight egginess that I really like. It's a bit eggy. I love the eggy. It's a bit flammy, Mum. I like that, though. I like it. I like that. Listen, you know how much I love a flam. Jessica.

I'm enjoying it. Jessica, for someone who's not cooked for two f***ing years, f*** off. Look, please don't give me the middle finger. People can't see this. Look, the things that people don't see is mum swearing at me. You know, you talk about me not swearing. You're sticking the old finger up for me. Jessie, because I've actually slaved over a hot stove and you...

That was not for me. That was for this wonderful woman. But you waltz in and then you're critical. I didn't waltz in. You do waltz in and critical. I didn't waltz in. I ran in and said, I'm really sorry. Jessie's critique is always yours.

Jessie goes like this. Oh, what do you think? You think you've done not too badly? And Liz was saying great. And she said, a bit eggy. Of course it's eggy. It's got four eggs in it. Do you value her honesty?

No. Shut up. So, you know, we've got an idea that, know you you eat out river cafe you're quite glamorous you are fantastic where are some of the other like local spots you're a south london girl yes where do you love to go in south london yes and yeah but i've been all over the place like a massive slut i've just lived in it i've given myself to every area no but i love you you are quite enough i've actually never lived in notting hill but thank you why did you i don't know does the demeanor look like i'm in a richard curtis movie yeah is

that what it is that must be it's a justin story so do you live in the place where they have the swimming pool that you can see through oh no but that's really nearby and they've redeveloped that whole area nine elms by the american embassy and unwittingly i was there because one of my favorite cafe is there called district give them a shout out they're an australian cafe oh good coffee then great coffee although i don't drink coffee anymore oh is that in that like new build bit right by the embassy yes i have had a good coffee by them it's yeah and they do really nice like brunch style food i love the sweet corn fritters come with avocado and creme fraiche delicious and there's the sky pool there and i was unwittingly there on the day i didn't realize but it was the day that the sky pool was unveiled

and i like posted about it on instagram stories because it's quite weird seeing a naked Roman Kemp swim across above your head. Was Roman Kemp in there? Yeah. The day that I then later discovered. Because then it went viral. Not my post, but suddenly it was just everywhere. It was in the Evening Standard, it was in Forbes, it was the New York Times.

And I was like, oh, I was there the day that it opened. Didn't really realise. Anyway, my local spots. There's a nice place there called Dar that it opened didn't really realise anyway my local spots there's a nice place there called Darby's which is where I had my birthday dinner I don't know Darby's

it's quite new so it's Nine Elms and they do great margaritas and they also do Christmas lunch darling it's a really it's a very nice

like sense of occasion place it feels quite New York-y it's got nice tile work yeah they do these like tile work I like that's an important factor to the high ceilings some uh they do these kind of um beef dripping roast potatoes that are kind of very thinly sliced and it's sort of amazing they're in kind of cubes but

they're thinly sliced within yeah i know what you mean yeah Yeah. So I like Derby's. I love Brunswick House. Jackson Boxer. Fab. Love Jackson Boxer. Love him. He's fab. So you're nearer there. Very close to Brunswick House. You're near the Southland...

Yes. Where's your Portuguese spot then? Which Portuguese? Do you know... Okay. The coffee there is sensational. Okay, so I've never been to Estrella because we moved in just before lockdown.

And so then lockdown happened and we were discovering our area. We were in the process of going to all these local restaurants and then lockdown happened. And we still haven't been, but I've heard so many amazing things about Estrella. It's the best coffee I've ever eaten drunk. It is fantastic, Jess. Have you been to the Canton Arms? Yes. Really like that.

Incredible. They do an incredible breakfast martini, which is a martini with like marmalade in it. It's amazing. Oh my God. It's amazing. Stockwell Continental on that road is really nice for pizza. Where's that?

It's just a few doors down from the Canton Arms. Okay. And then the other place I love is called 24 The Oval, which is on the other side. And that's a lovely local restaurant. It's quite small with a limited number of tables and they do incredible meat and it's just a great atmosphere

it's a great atmosphere thank you, pleasure we've got your last supper now you need to ask me my karaoke song Jessie hates Jessie hates that but I love karaoke so do I

I'm a terrible singer so therefore i rap so my karaoke track is skilos i wish oh wow but you're very tall i know well i don't i don't inhabit the world no it's fine but i love that you said that because i don't first work out I wish I was a little bit taller I wish I was a baller I wish I was like 5 foot 9 I had a girl I would call her I'm better at it when I do karaoke

I think I can maybe we should incorporate this into this mag part I don't know maybe we need to have like a I don't know a kind of how to fail table manners Christmas party yes yes yes

the problem is Elizabeth you say how to fail table manners Christmas party. Yes, yes, yes. The problem is, Elizabeth, you say how to fail, but you're a huge success. That's very lovely of you. You are. But I think I wasn't. That was such a good book. It was my favourite book for the summer. It was great.

You are kind of the Adele now. It's like, but do you feel... I love that conversation. You know, you've, you know you've you know heartache yeah but you're there so can you like do you still feel like you're failing in departments yeah I mean my whole thing around failure because I've I've become a lot more educated about what failure is and a lot more thoughtful around it because I get to speak to such amazing people about how they think of it. And so now I feel like

you can only truly be authentically yourself, which for me is actual success, if you have failed and if failure has stripped back all of those pretenses and those masks that we wear day by day and it's taught you something about yourself and you've had to look at yourself honestly in the face and be like okay I failed at that and how am I going to respond to it that's

the test of character so for me it's kind of congruent because I've learned a lot about failure and I feel more myself and that for me is the definition of success. But the failure was only in terms of relationship you haven't failed at other things. No, but I think what I failed at was being myself and feeling like myself was enough for a really long time. And that definitely had an impact on my career, even though on paper I was doing absolutely fine and I was like a feature writer for a Sunday newspaper. But I never felt comfortable with myself.

I always felt like I had to try to be more. Why? Do you think there's someone over your shoulder? Often people who feel they've not achieved much feel that their parents expected more of them. Do you think it was that? God, that's such a good question. was that oh god that's such a good question um I think my parents are amazing and they expected good things of me and therefore because they were anticipating I do well and by their own admission they wouldn't necessarily say you've done well and we read your report and well done they just expect it and so I'm someone who needs affirmation yeah and who needs a kind of sense of someone else saying I've done well

because ultimately it's all about connection like living life is all about our connections with other people we can't exist in a solitary space and so I always needed to know how other people were perceiving me and that can get very dangerous when you don't have enough of your own identity as this kind of solid foundation and in my 20s I think I ended up in a series of romantic relationships where I was just outsourcing my sense of self to what they wanted and I didn't really know what I wanted and that led me into sort of tricky territory personally and professionally where I wasn't pursuing stuff that I really desired because I'd lost touch with what I did really want. So what next now you you Magpie

might be made into a TV series we're hoping. How to Fail is developing. Do you carry on writing? Yes, I think writing is my first true love. As a journalist or as a novelist? No, I always want to write books. And journalism has been amazing for me. But I feel like I've got too many jobs at the moment. And so I have a weekly column I've

actually just given that up I'm doing a few more and then by next year I won't have that anymore and I feel like I'm taking a pause on journalism for a while so I can concentrate on other things writing books doing the podcast and also I have a yearning still to be a mother and so I'm going to focus on that and I need to create space for that because I am of a certain age and it's not going to be easy for me and I do have a certain fertility history and so that's going to be part of something I focus on rather than wanting it to happen just no you're going to have to work at it exactly exactly and um i want to create space for that so i've been quite intentional about that and i talk about it because i want to put

it into the universe in a way like i want to talk about it in the knowledge that it will happen and so that's what my next focus is oh oh wow the lights no sorry i don't know i just managed the lights work is that on a timer it was on a timer but it's not supposed to go up that early comment and then i feel like it's the universe sorry elizabeth day this has been greater than we could have possibly imagined what it just makes me so happy and thankful that we get to do this and call it work. I say it in a way, it is so fantastic. I'd love to meet Justin.

Oh my gosh, he would love to. Yeah, thank you for being here, just being such a supporter of Table Manners, but also just such good fun. And honestly, we learn a lot from you with your amazing podcast. I love Elizabeth Day. I knew I loved her before, but, like, I love her.

I think I could have her as another child. I also think she should be how to succeed, not how to fail, because she's so successful. That was very good, Mother. Did you think? I liked it a lot. I feel like she could be the new Parkinson as well. She's so interested.

I mean, look, she likes the podcast, which also helps. She knew what was going on she'd come and prepared the old questions and she didn't want to leave very interesting person sign of a good meal hopefully a good episode i think anyone who can decide how to where to sell their book to for film rights on the basis of it being jamesorton, has got a very good eye. Oh, my God. I just, yeah. What amazing.

A national treasure. Absolutely. I'm putting it out there. Elizabeth Day, we all love you. I love the dress. I mean, she's so glamorous. Very elegant. She's got, like, what they call VEHA trainers, the VEJA's.

Oh, I love VEJA's. But then got this Bella Freud dress on, just like... And then got the Cheat Bones. Did you know? Fantastic Cheat Bones. We're not objectifying, Elizabeth say. She is more than just a Cheat Bone in a red dress. Absolutely.

And we are just... I feel very proud of her. Super fun and very interesting. You know. Yeah. We chewed the fat. We drank the wine. Yeah.

We ate the clafoutis. Did you like that? did good it's better slightly cooler than it is hot hot i think they said to serve it straight away for me it's better when it's just set a bit um right sorry to keep you up sorry i'm very tired i mean even elizabeth was like i'm really sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry i was just having such a nice time. And I've got to catch up with Shep and say, can you fuck off? You're such a cat. Yeah, please. Thanks for listening. See you next week, if I'm bloody allowed to come back.

Yes, you are, darling. Thank you for listening. The music you've heard on Table Manners is by Peter Duffy and Pete Fraser. Table Manners is produced by Alice Williams.