Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S13 Ep 2: Elvis Costello

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

We have a living legend on the podcast this week, Mr Elvis Costello OBE!Jessie was in charge of cooking this time so Lennie was relaxed and raring to go. We talk about his musical family background, meeting his wife Diana Krall for the first time in front of an audience of millions, eating his mum’s Goulash as a child & paying for his first guitar from his wages as a fruit and veg boy. This man has so many fascinating stories, we could have chatted forever. It was an absolute pleasure having you over Elvis, can’t wait for a Pomodoro pasta next time we're in Manhattan! His new album ‘The Boy Named If’ is out now, go and have a listen. X Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners, I'm Jessie Ware and I am here at my mum's house and we're very excited to have Elvis Costello on the podcast today, coming in to eat some salmon, to try mum's semi-fredo and chat about his new record, The Boy Named It. This is a musical god. It's a big deal. This is a musical god. It's a big deal. This is a mega deal. You look at what he's done. In the superhero terms, as I've got used to with my granddad,

he is the Thor. Really? He is the Thor. He's the Hulk, the Iron Man. He's all of the superheroes of music. It's been a long weekend with my number two. Yeah, number two. Elvis Costello.

He's a superhero. Elvis Costello's biop. Darling, it took me half an hour to read. I mean, it's expensive. The guys worked with Burt Bacharach, got married in Sir Elton John's garden, worked with Sir Paul McCartney. Collabs with Sir Paul, yeah.

And does things in French. Does operas, I think. Does classical shit. Like, does everything. And then, like, also featured, and I know this is going to sound terrible, but featured on a great, great film that I loved the soundtrack of,

The Wedding Singer. And every day I write a book was on it and I liked it very much. And that was how I discovered Elvis Costello because I am a Philistine and I apologize. Anyway, we have Elvis Costello here. This is really exciting. I've seen some of his interviews in The Guardian recently.

He's like, I think he's got the chat. Yeah. So I feel like, you know, you and him are going to get along. Very cool. So yeah. Do you think he's known as Elvis or his proper name? Declan. I don't know.

We'll have to find out. But I've cooked today. So even though we're not in my kitchen today, because we thought maybe bath time and bedtime with my three would not collide so well with a massive international, brilliant pop rock and roll star. I'm here and I've done the food because you've been at a funeral today. Yeah.

Darling John Cameron. Darling John Cameron, who we love and miss. So yeah, I've done the food because you've been at a funeral today. Yeah. Darling John Cameron. Darling John Cameron who we love and miss. So yeah, I've been doing the cooking and I've done something that producer Alice told me about. That is one of those roasting tin dishes and tray bakes doesn't sound very sexy. Like doesn't sound sexy. But is really delicious. It's, I've done tender stem instead of broccoli florets because I just think it looks nicer and more colourful and I don't know.

Bit posher. Bit posher. It's with salmon and then you do this really beautiful dressing, which is coriander, peanuts, fish sauce, fish sauce ginger chili what else is in there lime loads of lime lime and limes I tell you one thing you've missed out darling but the whole house garlic garlic yeah there's a lot of garlic I'm worrying about my meeting anyone tomorrow yeah I'm really worried because actually garlic's worse the next day, isn't it? When it kind of like lingers. Yeah, it goes through your skin, darling.

Yeah, so that's going to be me at my business meeting tomorrow. Yeah. Perfect. So that's what we're having and then we're going to have it with sticky rice. Yeah.

I've stuck two rices together. Oh. I've got sticky white and I've got sticky brown. Thought there might not be enough so I've done both. So we'll see how we'll go. Ebony and ivory goes together like harmony.

We'll see. Otherwise, the brown rice is going to be horrendous. Let's hope it works. Okay, so we're having that. And then we're having smacked cucumber, which I didn't realise. Which Jessie smacked with one other cucumber. Yeah, I didn't realise. Didn't know what was going on.

She was smacking a bloody big cucumber with another cucumber. I know. Speaking about phallic things, I was doing a bat mitzvah. I was doing my lesson with Dr. Aviva Deutsch and we were talking about Adam and Eve. Why, darling?

Mum, I don't know shit. I think you do. I didn't even know about Genesis. Darling, you've got three children. I think you know about Adam and Eve. Anyway, Adam and Eve and the serpent. I never thought about it. It's so phallic.

Of course it is. I guess I've never really thought about it. You know, forbidden fruit and the creation of, you know, the world. And anyway. Yeah. Yeah. That fucking serpent. Anyway, back to my cucumbers.

Smacked cucumbers. You smack the cucumber. Darling, yeah, we should have used a rolling pin, which your husband has for making mixed fries. Anyway, I couldn't do that. So first you give me fish sauce with the bloody lid off, so it goes everywhere. And then you give, and then we made it work. So they are smacked.

So you actually bash them until they kind of break. And they are salting in the fridge as we speak. And there's another garlic dressing to go with that so honestly poor Elvis because he is going to stink in his promo tomorrow so that's what we're having and you've done the pudding what have you done coffee semi so what for so it's coffee ice cream it's yeah coffee ice cream but you don't churn it. It's got eggs in it, so it's egg yolks, cream. Whose recipe is this? I don't know, I found it on the internet. It was one of those things that came up on Instagram,

and then I looked it up, and it's got Toblerone in. Oh, yeah, I've had a bit of that in the fridge, actually, so I hope you didn't need any more. Because I've had a few. That's what we're having. Elvis Costello coming up. I hear he's a fruit and veg boy. That's what they've said to us.

I don't know whether that means that he loves his fruit and veg or he was a greengrocer. I love a fruit and veg myself. I don't know what you're talking about now, but anyway, you need to fix up because we've got Elvis Costello coming. I guess I was here yesterday.

So I got in... What day is it today? Is it Wednesday? I don't know. I got in Monday night. So I'm on the third day. So I should be good tonight. Okay, great. Yeah.

You haven't got soup, have you? No. Good, because I would fall into it. You could probably find some in the freezer if you needed some. The only thing I will say is I'm a little bit allergic to those. To the dillies? Yeah. Do you know my nieces?

And they're terribly strong there. I know. I arrived at the hotel the other night, and I'd never stayed at it before, the Browns Hotel. And it's such a nice hotel the rooms are really nice but the flowers are like eye-watering, like you come in the lobby

and it's like, hello give me my key and I can go upstairs Are you allergic to cats? No, no, no. Are you sure? No, no, no. Have you got any clarity? Do you need I've got everything done No, if they're just there, then we'll voice them.

I know, they were quite strong. They were strong. Yeah, those in particular. Yeah, I don't... As does finest. As does finest. What are they? Are they lilies?

They were just white lilies. Yeah, lilies I don't... They were cheap as chips. So what is it? Is it you just... You get bad hay fever? Is it just you're allergic to certain... I just...

I sort of get a little catch in my throat or in my nose and I'm singing them all so I don't think they would need that. No, of course. Anyway, cheers. Here's to you. Cheers. Thank you for being here. in my throat or in my nose and I'm singing tomorrow so I don't think they will need that of course cheers thank you for being here cheers I'm going to put some in

do you have like things you have to do for your voice like Jesse does are you scarf around your neck you know I drink that throat coat you know throat coat tea it's really so I'm a singer and I don't do this. Oh, I know, yeah.

Oh, that's fine. But, so I, and I'm always intrigued by everyone's tricks. So we've had John Legend on and he, and I'd heard this kind of, kind of this, I don't know, I had to ask him, I said, I hear that you eat chicken wings before you go on stage. It's what? Chicken wings. And he said, well, it's not chicken wings, it's rotisserie chicken,

and I do it to kind of coat my... So it's like his version of throat coat. And I'd never heard that one. What is... Have you had throat coat? Yeah, but it doesn't really work. Actually, I have the tea, the throat coat tea. That's what I mean, yeah. Yeah.

But then Tom Jones always has those vocal zones, and I've always been told that Eucalyptus is terrible. So that kind of, that opening up thing. But then he sounds pretty great. But it used to say on the inside of the tin, when they were in a tin, it used to say printed on the inside of the tin as used by the great Caruso.

Oh, really? So, you know. Do you know who the great Caruso is? No. He was a sort of... He was a crooner. Did he have a good voice? Opera singer but popular.

He was kind of like the Bocelli of his day. Yeah. He wasn't really a... I don't think he was really a... An opera singer but he sang operatic songs. He sang operatic songs. I think he was... You know, he became very famous

and they made movies based around him. And I'm not sure how much of an actual operatic career he had but he was but a lot of people's idea of opera was caruso so people still say you sing like caruso it was became a thing as they say not in my time he liked a vocal well it says on the inside of the tin it said on the inside of the tin as used by the great caruso well just see if it's good enough for him yeah my favorite one that a very renowned throat doctor told me many years ago he's passed away now he wrote books about the voice and he told me one drop of fairy liquid in a kind of you know the kind of spray he is to spray your flowers with yeah to keep the green fly away that kind of whatever you call those sprays one drop of dish soap and it's diluted of course and

he said that stops the cords from sticking now you put it down your throat you spray it into your mouth oh my god you can't taste it because it's so diluted but it's the same but it's the same i don't know did you try it oh Yeah. I had a sort of famous country singer, sort of like a man singer, kind of tell me that his brother, who was the high voice, used to drink Worcester sauce. And I thought the only way that works

is your vocal cords go to hell with this and get out. Because there's absolutely no way drinking Worcester sauce is medically a good thing. I i do love i love it too i don't think i work i don't think i was in medicinal property do you like hot sauce hot sauce depends red chili yes green chili no well we've got a bit of red chili tonight so i'm hoping they said you were a pescatarian yeah i eat fish yeah yeah people think i'm a vegetarian yes, they said you were a pescatarian. Yeah, I eat fish, yeah. Most people think I'm a vegetarian, but I do eat fish. Yeah, we thought you were, and then I was panicking. It just sort of, I don't know, I don't eat meat.

I haven't eaten meat for 40 years or more. Haven't you? Do you miss it? No. Hamburger? No. Bacon? Occasionally a bacon sandwich I would eat,

because I think it's the brown sauce I like. Yeah, but you know, there's a really good, have you tried this? This is not bacon. Well, it's just called this, and it's such good kind of... Pretend. Substitute. yeah but you know there's a really good have you tried this this is not bacon well it's just called this and it's such good kind of pretend

substitute it's really great oh well I'll have to I don't know whether I don't know do you live in the states I live in New York so yeah I don't know

if this is over there but it's very good but I'm sure I mean they don't have real bacon there in America anyway they have that funny

crispy stuff that they use as a condiment. But they don't have bacon like... Where do you live in New York? In Manhattan. How fabulous. All the restaurants. Well, not right now. Is it still COVID-y?

Well, there are a lot... You know, I like it. When I got back, we moved back in the summer. And I really liked all the restaurants they're serving on the pavement. You know, that gives it more... That's kind of opened things up in New York. More like European looking. Because it never was like that before.

Never really had that there before. But I don't know how well it's going to function when it's 27 below. You know, I mean, it's going to be a bit more tricky. They'll have heaters on, won't they? Yeah. So, you know, they already had heaters and stuff. But it was the my initial reaction was this is actually something that people could could get used to you know

do people call you elvis mostly people call me ec because the elvis name is a bit weird for some people and then and then my family called me my my christian name you know so i tend to keep that for them as a few people a few of my old friends and that call me deck but no i sort of kept it that's the line you know because people sometimes come up to you and try to kind of be familiar by using that name and i go no you don't know me well enough yet okay let's get to know you first you know so i like my family and my friends the rest of the people well i'm not so sure about. Can't call me that, yeah. So where were you moving back from when you went to New York?

Vancouver. Vancouver. We've been in Vancouver for four or five years. Is your wife Canadian? She was born on Vancouver Island. Yeah, she's, yeah, she was. She has got a fabulous voice. She's from Nanaimo, yeah.

She has a beautiful voice. Yeah, she's fabulous. She's a pretty great piano player as well. I know. So, you know, you would say that in more regular times, like in the past, we kept an apartment in New York because it was always at the centre of our work in world, being as most of our work is in America and in Europe.

For her, probably more in Europe than me. Really? Oh, yeah. Because jazz, you know, jazz kind of travels further east. Does it? Yeah. Whereas I've only ever played like once in Prague and once in Bucharest. She'll play all the way into, you know, like all the way to Russia.

Because people, you know, jazz has had a... Apart from the fact that she's a singer, jazz as a form has always had a meaning, you know, for people. I guess in the times when people couldn't say things out loud, music itself had a meaning because the language of the music is communicative. Where did you meet? We actually...

Well, we met, weirdly enough, on stage in front of a billion people yeah we met actually giving an award and was it instant it was for me certainly yeah but but but i didn't know how i would ever uh approach the subject i mean we became friends and you know thankfully we saw our future the same way but I look at it now I look at the picture and I think it's very extraordinary that it's it's not actually the very the first time we'd ever met we'd been introduced once before at some other sort of thing because you know but it makes it sound as if it was put together by by the gods of show business it was just a coincidence we I sound as if it was put together by the gods of show business. It was just a coincidence.

I think really what it was is we were presenting an award. There were three of us presenting the award, and the other was Gwen Stefani. Gwen was the gooseberry. No, but Gwen is very outgoing. She's very confident. And I think we were both equal. I wasn't a regular on those kind of shows by any means this

was it was 2002 or something which award show was that the Grammys okay yeah so when I say a billion it's it had a huge global audience um then it did anyway I don't know about now but um the so we had met a couple of years before at another event where we were briefly introduced. And then we were suddenly put together. And I just, you know, I sensed in her that ill ease. I'd only ever been like twice to such things. You know, which is, bear in mind, is 20 years into my career. But before I kind of got even remotely at ease with anything, with a gathering of people.

I didn't used to go to parties or anything. I was very... And really, the speed of your work. You know, if you're enrolled in this business, you're obviously doing the thing you do. Between recording and particularly touring, I toured so much that there wasn't really the time to develop that other sort of dimension and then

later on those sort of things that people remark upon but they're not really your career like being a guest on a on a comedy show or something you know that's something you get like when you've been around for a while and a little bit of space uh you know, they're aware and it says something probably curious about to have you be a guest on something where you're not the expected face. That's the way I see it. You've got twins, right? Yeah.

How old are you? It's greater. A daughter? No, it's greater. How old are they? Oh, it's great. A daughter? No, it's great. How old are they? They're 15. Oh, okay. And I have an elder son who's in his 40s.

Have you? Yeah. So you've got, okay, 15. Oh, so they're teenagers. They turn 15 in December. Have you got one of each? No, two boys. And they're proper New Yorker children?

Well, they were born in New York, but they've spent the back end of lower school and middle school, and now they're in high school. So they just started high school, grade nine. So we thought that

we actually planned to go back to New York last year and things were too uncertain. Where were you last year? In Vancouver. Do you like Canada? I do, yeah. What's food like there? Well, I mean, in the West, I can't swear to this,

but certainly things like salmon are better there than probably anywhere else in the world, I would say. Really? Yeah. You don't have a home here now anymore? No.

No, I haven't lived in England for full time since 1988, 89. What about the football? Well, we get more football on the TV over there than we do here. So do you still love Liverpool? Yeah. Yeah. I bet you bloody do. You're having a lovely time.

I know. We're Man U supporters and it's tragic I watched them, when did they play? Monday, it was terrible But we won but we didn't deserve to We didn't

Elvis, EC, I wanted to know the way that you talk about football, you're so knowledgeable music, you're virtuoso, you do that you talk about football, you're so knowledgeable. Music, you're virtuoso. You do everything. You are amazing. Oh, no, no, no. Food.

Yeah. Foodie? Not bothered? Oh, no. Take as much kind of pride and do you have all the knowledge? And I, like... Well, I think it's travel. Hmm.

You know, I think that, I think of the,'m i'm the age i am is that it's like several things that are in everybody's life like uh food football music other forms of entertainment change shape inside your lifetime and you and you realize there's no good to say oh it was better in my day yeah there's certain things about about football that i would say there was a kind of straightforward nature to it compared with now but then there's those players were being shot in the 70s full of cortisone all the time that wrecked their knees you know they were propping people up to kind of they had injuries that they had to play through now you watch them they're supported by sports scientists and they they are i guess some of the older players would say they're kind of coddled but it's not really it's working out how to get

the best out of them now i've never approached my own job in the same way same scientific way certainly if i if i'm um if there's anything scientific about it it's like you're your own chemistry set and at some age in the past you're experimenting with how many hours you can stay up and which drinks you take and which hearts you break and your own usually uh or as well but you know those things are all like part of the fuel to to write and play and travel so part of traveling is you can't it's like being a english tourist sort of demanding english food in a foreign country i mean you can't do that you you you're going to get very uh bored for one thing with demanding certain things that are

just familiar to you have to learn so where was the biggest learning curve for you well there's a kid i went to spain with my parents when i was really little yeah and i remembered liking it even though i was a little child and i didn't get to kind of make my own way we drove through france which i found frightening i don't know why I just found it sinister maybe it was just the hotels we stayed at I used to drive very fast through France which my parents time was more expensive than Spain in those days we talked about early 60s and then get to Spain which I only found as a child very welcoming and we were there midsummer my dad had the same two weeks

off every year which was also not in school holidays so that was great for me because i it was the only two weeks and you were allowed so i was allowed this concession to go with my folks and i don't really remember eating anything so unexpected but i my father was very fond of all things spanish and i inherited from him a certain curiosity about Spanish food. As I got to be an adult, I enjoyed the small dishes. I didn't really know what they were, but I liked the idea of these little dishes. I suppose as a kid I'd seen them.

And then I became curious when I first went to places, you know. I have to admit that a lot of the early dining abroad with band was a pretext for more drinking, you know, so I mean if it's like, oh, get some shrimps in Sweden, let's get some vodka, you know, let's, you know, whatever went with it really, that's not the best. You haven't drunk for a long time. Right. You don't drink? No, in 1996 I stopped drinking.

But I was a fairly enthusiastic drinker before then, shall we say. So I think out of courtesy, really, and self-defense, you have to. I speak fluent menu. I don't speak any other languages. I mean, if you don't eat meat, once I decided not to eat meat, you'd better know the German word for ham, because you're going to find it in a lot of things that seem to be vegetable dishes. And once you recognize those words,

then you can order with confidence. And, you know, even if it's very simple sort of things that you're looking for, you know. Can you cook? I can cook, yeah. What's your best dish? What do your sons like you to make? Well, I don't cook very, well, they like,

I cook breakfast for them quite on the menu when you're cooking if i'm cooking to send them off to a big day of school i'll make them french toast but most of the time it goes down so well yeah for them and if maple syrup of course is good in in canada what's the bread that you use uh well whatever's to hand but white bread's better yeah yeah have you ever tried challah bread of Of course, yeah, I've had that. You get that from the diners in New York, but I would just use regular kind of, you know. And I don't cook that often.

I sort of start to do it, and then suddenly Diana's done it, and she's a very good, you know. And also because we all eat different things, and four members of the family all eat different things. Oh, my gosh. We've got two carnivores. Well, three, two and a half. Like, my son Frankie will have a hamburger,

and he's like more straight lines, and his brother's a little bit more adventure. What's the brother called? Dexter, yeah. Dexter. He's the elder twin, and he's a little bit more. But we'll all eat salmon together we'll all eat but if it's pasta then it's two different kinds because i don't eat meat they'll eat a meat pasta and diana will eat uh you know meat so uh what whatever is the good ingredient you know you're trying to sort of

bring in them some appreciation that it doesn't magically come there they're learning to cook as well and little things you know do they cook for you uh they prepare things they prepare things like dexter got on the thing of he decided he wanted to make vegetarian kind of kebabs at one point and made those you know that was kind of well that's good you've got to learn how to do stuff you know were they delicious they were they went down very well with the family. They were a Christmas party, I think, you made them. So, yeah, they're good, you know. I mean, I think at 15, it's pretty good if they do the washing up, really.

I mean, at that... If they're awake. No, they're definitely awake. I wanted to talk about your childhood and what was around the dinner table when you were growing up. I know that you were born near London, weren't you? In London. Born in London.

Paddington. I was born in St Mary's, like all the Royal family. But your mum's a Scouser. My mum is from Liverpool and my dad is from Broken Head. So the family is really... Oh, you're proper Liverpool. We're really Merseyside family, yeah. So, you know, I was actually born in London

and then transported north on a donkey to be baptised in the Church of the Holy Cross in Birkenau. That's why I've got this kind of Messiah feeling, because I was born north. Of course you were. With camels and everything. Of course you were. No, of course, that's going to put it in your mind.

And the light was shining down. Yeah, that's when I went weird. Now, I was i was i was taken north my grandfather was not in good health so i think my dad really wanted wanted to make sure that i you know he saw me and uh he he he actually lived until i was four so i do have some memory of him but uh i i then spent a lot of holidays up and on you know with my grandmother i would visit her and stay with her sometimes on my, you know. And what were you eating? Did you eat scouts? As little as possible.

My grandmother's house, really. No, she really wasn't a good cook. Oh, my goodness. I learned that pretty early on. My mum, my mum worked. So she, you know, she made dishes that could be... My parents... I don't really remember when my parents separated,

but I think I was quite young, maybe seven. But my dad came and had meals with us quite frequently, so I have memory of him being there, maybe on Sundays and things like that. And he was working in the evening anyway, so he wouldn't have been having something yeah he played was at the Hamsworth Palace those nights with the Joe Loss Orchestra so we would sit down and my mum would make the same dishes every every the same dish on the same day yeah it would be like a menu and I can sort of almost memorize by the day and we inherited certain things that my dad had

sort of obviously regarded as traditional like fish on Friday you know we had fish on Friday being Catholics and and we had roast on a Sunday chicken and then did you have cold meat on so we always had roast on a Sunday and then cold meat with chips on a Monday I can't remember cold cold meat with chips but I think we I think I can Colby with chips, but I think we, I think I can remember like things that seemed quite, to me, to be quite adventurous then because they were

like goulash. My mum made goulash. Goulash. Yeah. I think they had some sort of friend that took, you know, my folks were kind of,

Did you like it? Yeah, I did actually because it was just a stew. Like cosmopolitan. Well, my folks were kind of like bohemian, kind of, a little bit bohemian in the 50s.

They came from Liverpool and they didn't live together. This is amazing. They lived in separate dwellings. They came at the same time but lived in separate dwellings until they got married. And that's not stuff they made up for me. That is really true because I've got the addresses and everything. And it seems strange now to think of it,

but they were kind of quite decorous in that way. But they did, their friends were artists and musicians. So people had, as much as people did in the 1950s, they had people that were different nationalities and people that introduced them. My folks lived in, before I was born, they lived in Leeds, but they lived in chapel town which was your mum a musician or anything no she was a record she was what they call a

gramophone record assistant i actually she passed earlier uh well she passed last year almost a year ago and uh well she was 93 and doesn't matter no it doesn't matter no no it is and that's and that's always the response when people say oh you know they're uh you no no it is and that's and that's always the response when people say oh you know they're you know that's a good that's a good age you know no it's not not when it's your mom you know no but she was great she she really had a strong will and made it through a lot of things my dad and being a woman in the field that she was in later she was in a personnel officer which i think in the in the 70s was kind of like a cross between a you know a careers officer a store detective and a and a and a counselor she spent a lot of time counseling people because

they didn't have hr and things like that kind of social work she was a lot She was a lot of it. Like if somebody was going through a breakup of a marriage or they had an abusive husband or they had a drug problem or a drink problem that came into work, she talked about this when I was a teenager and I knew that she was a very good listener. She was good listeners to me. So she had obviously a talent for getting people,

and even when she was older and would end up in hospital with some you know crisis i'd go to visit her and i'd find the nurse in tears sitting on her bed and i go what's going on i was going well the nurse came in and she starts to talk about her boyfriend and the next thing she's telling her all about it you know and it's just some people are like that so um i i was fortunate in that you know in she raised me. My dad was gone. But of course he was a presence because he was on the radio. And then at the end of the 60s, he became a traveling musician in the sense that he decided to leave a relatively secure job in being with a dance band that was playing every night and on the radio and sometimes on the television. And he decided he wanted to choose his own songs.

And he started doing the clubs. And were you in touch with him then oh yeah i see him all the time but i mean he was in the clubs mostly in the north of england uh played a lot in you know there was a very strong working men's club circuit then is that what he did the workmen he was did the working men club circuit yeah i presume you know you saw your dad doing that job and you were like well i saw my dad i went the first time i saw my dad perform was on television and i thought it was do you remember i don't remember it i remember being told that i had to be pulled away from the back of the tv because i was trying to get into the back of the tv because i was young enough to not understand that dad was on the TV and

You know, I could have gone up in smoke Touched the wrong thing then he was on the radio and I remember, you know, I remember my mother being excited He was on the Royal Variety Show In 63 with the Beatles and that was exciting to me Well, he didn't play with him. He was on the beat Yeah, and Marlin Dietrich whose piano player was put back right so and who you know so it's up my dad was on the bill and I've got pictures of the you know the press call and they're all

there and it's Charlie Drake and stepped Owen son all these people off the BBC and then the middle of it is another American singer called Buddy Greco and Marlon Dietrich and Harry Seacombe and Joe Loss who was a pretty famous family. He was huge Jesse. So he was on every Sunday night. It's hard to appreciate what it was like before there was like pop radio most of the day and now 24 hours because when I was a kid, they only had a limited amount of recorded music played every week.

And there was a mandate, you know, from an agreement between the BBC and the Musicians' Union to protect people's jobs. So a lot of the popular songs of the day were played by bands that weren't really suited to play them. Right. So as if you had like a song by song by the Beatles, even, you know, played by a dance band with 16 pieces

that was really designed to play Glenn Miller music, which is what, you know, But they also used to play live music at Workers' Playtime. Do you remember? Well, all of those shows, they were, you know, honestly, the BBC in 1963,

when I really started to pay attention to what my dad was singing, before that he must have been singing something in the house, but I remember him learning The Beatles' Please Please Me and it registering me with, oh, that's a song I know, and my dad is learning it, this is strange. And he had the record and the sheet music. And he used to, you know, I must have seen him do this before that moment,

but something made me ask for that record. So when did you start playing? Not until I was 13. What do you play, actually? I play guitar. What do you play? Really only guitar, and I can write at the piano, but I could never accompany anybody else at the piano.

And were you taught music? No, definitely not. So how do you write all these things no i i i don't think you well when i started out i don't really think that when you're accompanying yourself you write within the limits of your own dexterity and your own imagining yeah and then as i've found because i wasn't formally trained, my curiosity led me to learn more in the way. And as I learned more just physical shapes on the guitar fretboard, I started to understand more about how they were connected and that my sense of harmony developed from that. And then when I started to play the piano, of course, the diagram of the piano is

much, it's much more evident what is happening with the music because you've got to think the guitar is facing away from you actually can't see what your hands are doing so you learn never got along with it well you you you learn these as i think of it shapes these guitar chord shapes and i never really played scales and i still don't know how to play scales on the guitar i never i never needed to do that i i really was looking for a rhythm and a little sense of a harmony that would pop into my head and that's where the songs came from usually kind of dragged out of me by some lyrical idea that i had so the rhythm of the words would dictate the melody now that's a might sound like crazy talk but to somebody who's trained formally, they are very, very, sometimes paralyzingly aware of what the relationship between any two notes in a melody are. They can tell you which note in the scale that is, which interval it is.

And I think sometimes highly trained musicians have to struggle to get beyond the knowledge that they have to actually imagine just something taking flight i my grandfather was somebody who was trained by the army and couldn't play music at all if he took it away from him he could only play by sight he couldn't improvise at all he just he could play scales but he couldn't play he couldn't just play a tune he had to have music i can't sight read it but i can write it down god jesse no stop no no no no i i i learned to do it when i was 39 40 i i'm really interested to know whether frank or dexter are keen musicians or whether they've completely been like you know what because both their parents you know well that would be the worst thing to put on them that they either had to do it or they couldn't do it i was almost um i think because the sisters grabbed hold of the idea that i could sing when

i was quite young i think both my parents kind of reacted to that by and they would drag me out of class to sing to to anybody that came to the school yeah and it was it was cute when i was six and seven but i didn't think so much about it when i was like 10 11 i was mortified but frankly but i did i was very fond of the sisters you know they were they were benevolent people i know a lot of people have very bad experiences with catholic school but i actually had very you're talking about the sisters you know they were they were benevolent people i know a lot of people have very bad experiences with catholic school but i actually had very you're talking about the sisters not your sisters no i don't have any sisters no okay no the sisters i mean the sister mary cecilia was the headmistress of my school you know she was i'm sure if i met her now i would think different maybe i would think differently or maybe I think exactly the same.

Seemed like a slightly eccentric, quite benevolent Irish woman. And most of the nuns were Irish. And they had particular, you know, things that they taught us that I know are not strictly true now, you know. In what sense? What? Well, they had a particularly Irish perception of English history. And, you know,

you've got a guardian angel. I don't think that's true. But I mean, we were taught that that was true when I was little, you know. So, I know I don't, I know I look kind of addled and sinful now,

but I was actually quite, I was actually looked, I looked like a, I don't know, Winston Churchill when I was like nine years old. I had this very serious expression. You were funny then. No, I just had a sort of, you know,

and they thought I was going to be a priest and they wanted me to be a priest. And I was named for a priest even better than that. I was named for a priest. Father Declan, my grandfather's best friend. Oh, my goodness. So I was actually named for a priest. I was marked down

to be like some kind of uh holy jehovah's story about your first confession it's true it's so funny but it's I'm not the only catholic that's ever done that by the way I remember being very mortified because they told us we you know we had to summon up our transgressions and I didn't even know what that was you know and I and I looked down the commandments and you know we were told to recite those things like the like that we'd say our rosary it's a catechism so all these things are really driven into you by repetition just like learning your times table and I looked down and I went well I don't you know i haven't i haven't taken i haven't killed anybody i haven't stolen i haven't taken the lord's name in vain i don't

know anybody with an oxen that i can cover and i i went and i was like frightened to not have a sin because i thought that will seem suspicious in my seven-year-old logic so i confessed to adultery and i think i think a few of us did, not really knowing. What it was. I think we maybe thought, it's maybe trying to be a bit older than you are, I think is what I arrived at, thinking what it was. You didn't know what it was.

I didn't know what it was, no. So I said, I think that's taken a few years off purgatory for me. Because I can't say I'd never committed that sin, ever. But at that time, it was obviously like just that's it you're very young for being asked to consider your immortal soul and all these concepts which of course having some sort of compass towards good and bad it's not an entirely bad thing it's only bad if you talk to hate other people because they you know believe or are something other than than you are. Then I have a big problem with it. That's why I say if I were to talk to my teachers now that were priests, were nuns,

and the priests who we thought very fondly of, I know they believe things that I don't believe. hello table manners listeners i just wanted to let you know about my new podcast is it normal the pregnancy podcast which follows my pregnancy journey and with the help of some brilliant experts will reassure and inform you about all aspects of pregnancy and giving birth throughout my pregnancy i spoke to consultants, midwives, obstetricians, sonographers, mental health experts, doulas, home birth midwives, reflexologists, the list goes on. And with the help of questions from other pregnant people, the podcast covers as many aspects of pregnancy and giving birth as possible.

I'd love you to have a listen and please let your pregnant friends know about it. Is It Normal? The Pregnancy Podcast is a reassuring, helping hand, not an instruction manual. It's a space for frank, open and positive dialogue. The full 40 weeks are available now wherever you get your podcasts. This looks lovely.

And then this is just smacked cucumber. Smacked. Actually smacked. Did you know that smacked cucumber. Smacked. Actually smacked. Did you know that smacked cucumber, you actually smack it? No. So you usually do it with a rolling pin. Did you have enough rice? I did, yeah.

I've got some there. Here, darling. Thanks, Mum. So Elvis, we ask everybody what their last supper would be. Now, it doesn't have to be a morbid last supper in the sense that you're about to pass away. It could be that you're going to a desert island you're not going to have these delicious meals you've got a starter a main a pud and a drink of choice oh my goodness i do i i don't drink alcohol so water is always good if you can't have a desert island you better have some water right um i lived on tomatoes when i

was a kid when i was really little i i my mom said one time i wouldn't eat anything but the tomatoes so i don't know what that was about i just got a taste from i like i like vinegar a lot so anything involving vinegar you know i think it was my last it was it was my last supper in a in a in a in a morbid way like if i was going to be executed at dawn or something like that. I think I'd send for fish and chips and the marigold in West Curley because it'd take a really long time for them to get back. The marigold and the marigold.

That was the chippy near my mum's. And it's very good. It's very good. A food I do really like, and I think it's also, it's slow in the sense that you can't, you haven't got a knife and fork, is Ethiopian food. Mmm. With the sour.

With the enjuva. I don't like the pancake. I love the pancake. It's so sour, though. Mmm. It's the grain. It's tiff. That's nice, that.

What is that? Is that broccoli? Is it broccoli? It's tender stem, yeah. Yeah, that's nice. Some of it's a bit wiry, though. Sorry, you don't know what you're getting, really. But yeah, it's tender stem.

Oh, I think you do. Actually, hold on. Somebody told me you were a fruit and veg. Somebody said, oh, yeah, he's a fruit and veg boy. I was, yeah. That's how I paid for my first guitar. I worked as a Saturday boy as a fruit and veg boy. Where?

East Twickenham. I learned a lot. You know, I had a very good family. There was a family business and they were very, you know, they taught you to look at things and how to handle stuff. And I can still look at, you know, I can go into the supermarkets and say, that orange will be nice. I can tell from the skin and I can, tomatoes particularly,

because I really love them. I can tell you what they taste like by looking at them I have made dessert that's nice are you a sweet kind of I'll eat a dessert with you yeah no I'm not it's an it's a coffee it's a coffee well that's that's fine I'm sure it's delicious we've got Ethiopian food yeah that's only if it's only if i'm if i want to really string it out both yeah no let's string it out but no i would say and we really if i were just asking simple like if i would just pass what's your favorite meal i would as soon have like

a salad yeah you know like i I really like chicory. Yeah. Or what they call in America, endive. Endive, yeah. I had a lovely Waldorf salad. Like, you know, you can make such a simple salad with a little bit of cheese, a little blue cheese, tangy something, and a few nuts. So a bit of a Waldorf salad you like? Well, I guess it is. No, that's not a...

I had one at the weekend at the pig and it was chicory yeah walnuts yeah rock for some kind of some kind of like tangy yellow sultanas that were delicious with it oh i don't know it was very good okay i'll tell you what it was i'll take your word for that one yeah really good and you know when you're doing stuff at home i mean if i were cooking, I'd get like a, not a frying pan and not a saucepan, but a sort of rounded pan. I suppose it would look a little bit like a wok, but not as wide as a wok. And I just put a whole, I try to get the best tomatoes, the kind of little ones, cherry

tomatoes that are sharp and garlic, a little bit of garlic olive oil and put the tomatoes in there so they soften blister crush them and maybe some chili flakes red chili flakes not not fresh chili chili flakes not fresh chilli, chilli flakes are you having that with pasta? and then penne if I'm on the healthy side it would be the whole grain pasta because it's supposed to be better for you but it's no fun is it?

well it depends on the quality of the thing I used to play a show a TV show in Italy where the TV station was next to the Barilla Factory and they would come in at the end of this TV show in Italy where they were the TV station was next to the Barilla factory and They would come in at the end of this two-hour three-hour kind of live show and you play a couple of songs on it and then they would just come in with these giant vats of of Spaghetti and just dole amount of the entire audience was fantastic and that was sort of like well

That's that's that's what I would like to do for my friends. I'd like to just cook that simple dish for them. Because most everybody likes a plate, you know, and then you've satisfied everybody. If they like a little bit, you leave the spice out to the last minute or something. But I don't really, and then if you want to make it more complex,

you could put some mozzarella in it or something, or put some parmesan on it so that it would have a little tang or tang to it but i i would cook like that that's that's really what i would make the other things are things i i've discovered over the traveling you know like you learn if you go to japan are you going to ask for kind of like spaghetti there no why would you do that you want to discover what what japanese food is so if you go to like when i went to ethiopia i was only happy to hit to taste it i've been to ethiopian restaurants and really eaten beautiful

food and they were mostly family there's no such thing as a chain of ethiopian restaurants they're all family run restaurants and and it would be like being at somebody's house and the cookie of the meal you know that's i think there's something and all the places we go there's there's something like the once a tour obviously less easy to do right now but you know once or twice a tour i said okay guys you want to go out tonight and i'll we'll go all go out together because there'll be some sort of adventure well of course in days gone by it was like let's stay in this place till it closes and drink grappa and then regress it the next day. But now it's like, and nobody is more than one glass of wine kind of people, you know. Because we've got to get through and do the show. And you've got to be like, be tip top the next day.

Yeah. But I think it's good. You know, it's only courteous when you're visiting these places. Like, there's particular dishes in all the countries in europe that i would say well when i go there i'd like that little toast in in sweden which is little row and they serve it with a little bit of onion and then denmark it would i would think oh well i'll have a open face prawn sandwich there that's always great you know if you're in Belgium, well, boule frite. You know, why not with some... You know, these are things you sort of like.

Indonesian food is like... In Holland, you get really good Indonesian food because it's an Indonesian population. They're just like English people know or have experience of eating different forms of Indian food. Mum, this is delicious. Do you like it? Yes.

What do you think? It's good. It's like kind of, it's like Viennetta, but like a really, like... It's coffee ice cream with Viennetta, but I'm into it. It's coffee and semifreddo, so it's basically eggs, sugar and Toblerone. Toblerone, that's what it is. That's what it's coffee, that's the thing. Toblerone.

I'm into it, Mum. If I was ever trapped in a hotel room with just some eggs and sugar and a mini bar, I'd be able to make this. You would. You would. Actually, very little cream. Oh, really? Yes. I could just get those little things that they put with the coffee maker.

I love those. Tip those in. Stick them in the microwave. Yeah, absolutely. It's only a small thing of cream it's good very tasty we still haven't got your pudding i think i would have to go are you a pudding person i i try not to be but but i think that there are places where i go i mean if i go to spain yeah flam you know caramel flam i have yeah yeah i have to have that yeah it's different i don't

know whether it's the milk they use or something or the type of toffee sauce it is i don't know the caramel that would be it um i mean when we go on the road we have sometimes when when it was possible to do it sometimes you know if the budget allows for it we'll take people that cook because you've got to feed all the crew you know and they got and some places they don't have the facilities so these people do this amazing job preparing food mainly because the people that do the physical the really physical job putting the gear in putting all that they need they really need you need to otherwise it's ending up having domino's pizzas They really need Otherwise it's ending up having Domino's pizzas

Yeah it's not good So Peter Adorama loves his School dinners type of desserts So we get all of those And I'm fortunate that I don't like any of them I just can't Accept bread and butter pudding

That's my weakness I love that with panettone Oh I don't know about that That's posh You're all panettone I that the panettone oh I don't know about that that's posh oh no your old panettone from I know what panettone is

I love panettone you always get them at Christmas don't you you get about five well I seem to get a lot of panettone so it's always quite good as a bread and butter

I always have them yeah that would be what's your drink of choice then water it's going to be my last supper I'd have one more espresso would you like vimto would you like vimto What's your drink of choice? Then water. It's going to be my last supper.

I'd have one more espresso. Would you like Vimto? Would you like Vimto? Vimto. I literally, I don't know whether I would know what it tasted like now. I haven't had Vimto for years. You see, I thought I'd excite you with a hot Vimto. A hot Vimto? Yeah.

That's a new thing. That's what mum used to give me when I was poorly. When you were poorly and when we used to go to football matches we used to have a hot vinto I've never had that yeah I'll have a hot vinto just so I can say

I've had it there you go it's like being in you know when you're in Spain having you know the creme catalane you know

now you're in Lenny's you're having a hot vinto there you go I know we really appreciate you coming over and eating with us and chatting. It was a real pleasure. It's a really unusual thing to do, but I must say, I see why

people really want to come and have fun with you. Will you tell your wife that we're all right and we'll give her a good meal? Yes, she can come. I know, yeah. You know, she's having a good time. You're going to have a go at your vimto. Oh, that's good. No, you see? It tastes like cough medicine. No, vimto's the best thing on earth.

Isn't it delicious? It's kind of like when I used to drink Hot Port on stage. Hot Port. We'll send you some of this. Which was, that was a mistake. Maybe you should have this on your ride. After the first first second bottle you're not feeling any pain

Elvis Costello thank you so much for being here chatting with us, eating our food and it's been a real pleasure music royalty definitely thank you enjoyed it very much Well

Elvis Costello's just a very lovely man What an encyclopedia of music With a really nice gap in his tooth Oh I didn't notice that Very nice teeth, I like him Really sweet I didn't notice that. Very nice teeth. I like him. Really sweet. I felt he was more Scouse than London.

Yeah, I could hear the... Could you hear it? Are you allowed to say Scouse if you're not from Liverpool? Yeah, I think so. I really liked him. What I found really interesting about Elvis Costello is our expectation of him, our presumption of him was

that he was going to be quite extrovert and not loud but extrovert and actually he's really not that he's incredibly thoughtful studious very considered considered um um really thinks I mean some of the words that sentences that he was putting together, you were like, that is a song. And it was just him speaking. But his songs are like that, aren't they? And so there's something really special about doing this podcast where you meet a stranger, a complete stranger, but quite a famous stranger who you have expectations of. It is like Blind Date, isn't it? Yeah.

And it's a laura laura laughs god poor poor albus to be finished on that when he's so little she's a scouser oh we know we love silla but um anyway no it was very interesting and a real pleasure to have him over and the food can we talk about the food mum i mean i've got so much darling i just thought it was absolutely delicious well thank you to alice for recommending it thank you alice and it's in one of those roasting tin you can get it online i i followed it online it's a happy foodie it's on happy foodie it was just it's really lovely but just don't use the broccoli use tender stem can we talk a little bit about my semi mum that was really good and, I dipped my finger in it, the melted stuff, and it was light as a feather, Mother.

It's not very... It's like a mousse. Yeah, it's not very creamy. Mum, you know what? I went to the pig with Sam. Thank you. That was your birthday present to me. Pleasure, darling.

And we had a really good pudding, which I would like to try and recreate. Okay, I'll recreate it, darling. It was a roasted chestnut mousse. Yeah. So essentially, that was like doing a darling. It was a roasted chestnut mousse. Yeah. So essentially that was like doing a chocolate mousse, but with like chestnut puree. Then with this... Got chestnuts in the fridge.

Amazing. Chocolate crisp. Now I was like, how do you do this? I don't know how they do that. I found out because I asked them. Okay, go on. So you make a meringue. Yeah.

You melt chocolate. Yeah. And you make a meringue yeah you melt chocolate yeah and you make a meringue yeah but then you add the egg yolks as well and so it becomes almost like a so you you make whip it up the egg whites so it's like a meringue and then you add the egg yolk and the chocolate melted chocolate and then you make a kind of paste and then spread it out onto one of the baking things. Oh, one of those sheet things. Yeah. And then you cook it on like 60 for 12 hours. It's like a twill. But it didn't kind of, it was just really.

No, a twill isn't a twill, darling. What they do is they do it like that and then twill it. But it was just flat. Okay. It was so delicious. Okay. It was so delicious and the chef was really, but it's all about leaving it, it kind of dehydrates it.

So you have it in there for 12 hours and I thought maybe we could try it. Because actually it sounded quite straightforward. It's just. No, it sounds complicated to me. No, it isn't. It's like doing a meringue and then anyway,

I'm maybe going to try it. Anyway, thank you for listening and we'll see you next week The music you've heard on Table Manners is by Peter Duffy and Pete Fraser. Table Manners is produced by Alice Williams.