Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S15 Ep 23: Keir Starmer

Episode Date: July 26, 2023

It’s our final episode of this series, and we’ve decided to finish it off by inviting the leader of the opposition, Sir Keir Starmer, to mum's for dinner. The leader of the Labour Party told us all about his love of experimental cooking, his mum's jam sandwiches, eating fish & chips on the road, the controversy over his Desert Island Discs song choices and the tradition of Friday night shabbat with his family. Thank you Sir Keir Starmer and thank you listeners for joining us this series! Have a lovely summer and we’ll see you back here soon for more food, more Lennie and more guests. We love making the podcast, but it is time for Lennie to go to Greece for a month x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and this is the season finale and we shall go out with a big red bang. Yes, I'm very, very, very excited. Why are you so excited, Mum? Well, there have been two people on my list, my target list to have on our podcast. One is Marcus Rashford, obviously. Yeah, which is still waiting. And this special person. Christmas has come early for you, Mum.

Come very early. End of July. You're cooking for Keir Starmer. Sir Keir Starmer tonight. Sir Keir Starmer. The leader of the opposition. Yeah. Potentially our next Prime Minister.

Yeah. What are you cooking? Well, he doesn't eat meat. How do you feel about that, Mum? Not happy. Will it change your vote? No. Okay.

I would have done a little steak on the barbecue for him, but he's also coming a bit early, so it's kind of a bit high tea-ish. How do you feel about that? Well, it's high tea for me. It's kind of late dinner for you, because it's five o'clock, darling. You just got my vote,

because he likes eating dinner at five yeah that's it so so we're going for it it's been a breezy few days but the sun is shining and you've kind of gone for a bit of an alfresco yeah provencal kind of frenchy high tea situation yeah so i've made a tomato tart a la Alison Robben. Yeah. I've made my puy lentil salad that you love. So good. I've made courgette salad with mint. Well, in fact, you helped do that.

Yeah. Easy. Shaved courgette, pecorino, mint, olive oil and lemon. And then I've made also an aubergine and tomato and cucumber salad. So I've roasted the aubergine with olive oil. It's got lemon juice, olive oil. So it's a bit like guacamole, but no avocado. It's guacamole. I think nobody calls it guacamole. Oh, guacamole. Which is actually interesting because the only request that we had that we did not do anything with was avocado.

Yeah. He clearly got the memo about Meghan being blamed for avocado shortages all over the world. Didn't want right wing media going on that subject. No right wing media going on the avocado front. Do you want to know what I've been up to today? Yes. I did sports day. Had a massage?

No. That is very cruel. That was very, very cruel. Okay. I did sports day Had a massage No That is very cruel Oh darling That is very very cruel Okay I did sports day For two hours I heard you darling You sent me

Little video clips Of you yelling At your daughter To go faster That's what I could hear That was words Of encouragement And I learnt

From the best mum No helicopter parenting there I believe That sports day Should be taken seriously not the taking part that counts all that crap it's the winning yeah so she was the Alcaraz of she was not the Alcaraz however she gave it a go and she was adamant that I did the parent race bear in mind I was about a litre of water in because we'd been there for one hour

and I did the run and I wet myself oh my god Jessie we don't need to hear this because three children in and a litre of water and not going for a wee yeah I wet myself and I did not win did anybody see that you'd wet yourself

no the teacher didn't have to take you aside and say, find a new clean pair of knickers in the cupboard. Me on the ski slopes, yeah? Yeah. No. Okay. Anyway, so that's what I was doing.

I'm very interested to know whether Sakir Snarma has partaken in the parents' race and whether he's competitive. I have very important questions. Also, I went clubbing at the weekend and I wonder, last time that Sakir stepped inside a club. These are the vital questions I shall be asking.

I think everyone wants to know. We shall be asking food questions, family questions. Because that's what this is all about. Exactly. We're not Laura Kunzberg and Robert Paston here. Mum, take it away. What, darling? Say who we've got.

Sakhir Stormer. Coming up on Table Manners. Sakhir Starmer, you're in Clapham. You're about to get fed by Lenny Ware. And we've got so many questions to ask. Mostly food related. Very good. Thank you for being here.

No, not at all. Thanks for having me. You know, we've had some many questions to ask. Mostly food related. Very good. Thank you for being here. No, not at all. Thanks for having me. You know, we've had some other MPs on. Yeah, some of your front bench. Who have you had on? Jess Phillips. Oh, yeah, I did know that. And Ed Miliband.

Ed came on. Yeah. Fantastic. And can I just tell you, very flirty. Was he? Yeah. Surprisingly, asked me if I'd like to go naked swimming at Hampstead Ponds. Oh, he's obsessed with wild swimming. I didn't realise it was that wild. Well, I think, yeah. Yeah. Surprisingly. Asked me if I'd like to go naked swimming at Hampstead Ponds.

Oh, he's obsessed with wild swimming. I didn't realise it was that wild. Well, I think... LAUGHTER Well, I didn't either. He's tried to sell it to me as just sort of good for the soul. I was going to go naked with him too. Mum, you don't feel so special. He's become so into wild swimming.

Oh, no. But, well, wait till I have a word with him. Yeah. And he had Sadiq. Had Sadiq. Yeah, we've well, wait till I have a word with him. Yeah. And he had Sadiq? Had Sadiq. Yeah, he had Sadiq. For years. He gave us the scoops.

I'm waiting for your scoop for us, please. Thank you. He said that he was announcing that he was running for mayor again. So I'm just, we'll wait. We'll give you a few glasses,

Keir, and we'll see what you've got. Oh, did he? Yeah. Okay. That's really nice. But Keir, we kind of,

let's start at the beginning. Dinner, around the dinner table. Who was around the dinner table? Are you a Londoner? Yes, Kentish Town. Oh, right. Proper Londoner. So who was cooking your meals when you were a child

and who was eating them or not eating them? So when I was growing up, I lived out in Surrey, on the Surrey-Kent border, in a semi-detachedached pebble-dashed house with my mum and dad and four kids, three bedrooms. So I shared with my brother and my sister shared with each other. So I had the bunk bedroom with my brother. Did you like that? It was very cramped.

Where did you, are you the eldest? So I've got an older sister right I'm then next and then I've got a brother and sister who are 18 months younger who are twins oh and so that's where we lived and cooking wise it was this was a what I would call a sort of classic working class family so my dad worked in a factory. He was a toolmaker. My mom was a nurse, but she, I don't know whether you know this, she had Stills disease when she was young, when she was 11, which is basically a very aggressive juvenile arthritis and it can destroy your sort of system. And luckily for her, they found something that could treat her,

at least mitigating. And so, because the diagnosis, prognosis at 11 was that she wouldn't walk after the age of 20 and she wouldn't be able to have kids. So even the fact that I'm here is a sort of miracle down to Guy's Hospital and what they're able to do with her. But that meant that in the end, it was just my dad working. And so it was a very traditional setup. Mum did all the cooking um all the cooking good cook yeah really good um but my dad i can't i was thinking about this when i was coming down i can't remember my dad ever cooking anything it was just such a traditional working class setup

he just didn't cook anything my mum did everything and what was a memorable dish that your mum made? well in when I was growing up it was British food yeah British food always really? so my dad was really sort of

rigid frameworked about this so he wasn't going to be eating pasta or anything like that are you kidding? so it was British food there was there came a point must have been when I was

a teenager I I think, when my mum sort of branched out and tried a chicken curry. It was one of these sort of chicken and a bit of curry sauce and some sultanas and a bit of rice. Sounds delicious. This was really exotic for us because otherwise it was, as you'd expect, sort of sausages, mash, meat, veg. It was that, chicken and potatoes or vegetables.

It was always that sort of menu. And you don't eat meat now? I don't eat meat now. But then it was classic, potato, two veg or something like that. So how did the curry go down in the household? I thought it was great. Did your dad like it? Eventually, yeah.

But he wouldn't he wouldn't be adventurous on anything else so you know we we didn't try anything else at all when I was growing up. So with your mum's illness did that make it quite hard for you mean having four kids in the house were there times when it was quite debilitating for her that it was obvious for you and you were aware of it? Yeah, it was all of the time, really. She was in incredible pain and struggling all the time. What's interesting, looking back at it, I don't think I noticed as much then,

because she contracted this illness before I was born, obviously. So she was always the same. I never knew. This was always how mum was. And there was always, at mealtimes, along with the food, there would always be a sort of mum's tablets that she'd have at every meal because she had to have painkillers and strong tablets and then other tablets to take away the side effects of the first set of tablets

and that sort of thing. So that was part of the routine, if you like, at the table, which was the food. And then, you know, all of the tablets and medicines that had to go alongside it and were you all talking about politics at dinner time no not particularly was your were your parents political not actively so my dad was a labor supporter it's a labor household yeah um and you know very strongly believed in the labor party and labor movement and in terms of activity so he I remember distinctly he would go to work at 8 o'clock in the morning, come home at 5 o'clock for his tea, and then go back to work at 6 till 10 o'clock at night.

You're kidding. Every five days a week. Why? This was his routine. Because we didn't have a lot of money. And you had to get the job done. And so he would come in eat and go and therefore there was no space in his life for you know activities so did he play

with you so he was too busy to even get involved yeah i can't remember him being particularly involved with us it was always mum particularly when we were younger so if we sort of came home from school particularly primary school it'd be mum that was there to greet us when we came in at whatever time from primary school half past three four and uh and at that stage I've got this distinct memory of sort of jam sandwiches at about four o'clock in the afternoon. And my mum always, in my head at least, always playing Jim Reeves. Jim Reeves? Yeah, she loved Jim Reeves.

Who's Jim Reeves? Oh, it's like a country singer. An old country singer from years ago. Who's Jim Reeves? That's so great. Sorry. It just shows where this is from. Obviously your mum was incredibly busy bringing up four from obviously your mum was incredibly busy bringing up four children

and your dad was incredibly busy bringing home the bacon do you think if your mum had worked what do you think she would have been interested in doing she did she would have carried on being a nurse so she works whilst being she was exhausted too

she worked in her late teens when she first went to work. Okay. And then she stopped. And then she just go back? No, no. She wasn't strong enough to go back. And also having four children just didn't allow her to go back.

But she loved the NHS. She was so proud of being a nurse. It was like, goes through like a sort of a rock. It was incredible. So she'd definitely have carried on being a nurse if she could have done how old was she when she had her first child she was 21 i think maybe just 22 so basically once you've been told um you're because of your illness you may not have children she kept going going. Well, she said, I'm not having that. And obviously took these drugs, which were a sort of form of steroids,

which helped mitigate the illness. And then she got on with it because she got married at 21 and had children straight away. Because I think she must have... I've never discussed this with her. And obviously I can't now because she's passed away but I assume it's because she felt at any moment I might

not be well enough to have children so I'm not going to hang about I'm going to get on with it so she was determined and had four children Was it a happy childhood? Yeah It was happy It was I did a lot of of sports i was playing football the

whole time um out the house doing that sort of thing but yeah it was there wasn't a lot of discussion we didn't sort of discuss politics or current affairs around the kitchen table it wasn't that kind of household yeah when did you get interested in politics i joined the labour party when i was 16 so there was something there, obviously, that got me into politics. Was it a particular figure in the Labour Party? No, it was just this burning sense that we needed to change things and that if you're going to change things, it had to be the Labour Party. So it just made absolute sense to me to join the Labour Party as soon as I could.

It was just sort of hardwired in me. But it didn't come out of discussions around the kitchen table I think it came out of um observing what I mean we didn't have a lot of money so I knew you know there were times when things were really tough and we couldn't afford to pay all the bills so we'd have to choose you know what wouldn't we pay and the one we always chose was the telephone because that was a landline it was I think a monthly payment or whatever it was and if you had your phone cut off you didn't have to pay that bill so it was quite tough in that sense I mean not pleading poverty or anything but it was you know we knew what it was like not to have a lot of money and and this

goes to sort of food as well because my mum and dad almost never had anyone around because my dad felt that people disrespected him because he worked in a factory he felt this really strongly that people looked down on him and when you know when people come around for dinner or whatever it is and you don't know every you know you're meeting people for the first time you inevitably have that discussion well what do you do for a living and he hated that discussion because he felt that as soon as he said he worked in a factory people sort of went quiet and didn't quite know what to say did you feel like that when you were at school if kids asked you what your dad did i didn't feel like that but it's given me something i've held on to all my life which is a real sense that respect and dignity are for me

probably the two most valuable and important values in life and I and that that I think was deep in me and I think it's what drove me to say I want to be in the Labour Party and to change things and you know and that then took me on a different course to my dad because my dad did his skills education his technical skills at night school. Whereas I got the chance to go off to university. So this was the sort of the opportunity that I was now getting that others hadn't had and my dad hadn't had. Was he clever, your dad? He was.

Yeah. Yeah, he was. Did he read a lot? He read a lot. He listened to music a lot. He listened to classical music. But there was no chance of him going to university when he was. Did he read a lot? He read a lot. He listened to music a lot. He listened to classical music. But there was no chance of him going to university when he was growing up. It was, you're going out to get a job and you need the technical skills to do it.

So that's what he did. But he wanted it. I don't know, this sense that he wasn't valued because of what he did. And that really burnt away at him. And in the end, stopped them having people around. And then we wouldn't go out to eat. I don't remember ever going to a restaurant as a child, ever. We did go, you know, if we're on holiday.

Did you have fish and chips? On holiday, we'd have takeaway fish and chips on the birthday of any of us. Okay. And that would be takeaway, bring it home. And then when we're on holiday we went to the lake district every year because my mum loved the lake district and so um we always went there and we would then occasionally eat at pubs sort of pub food in the evening but beyond that

never i mean i honestly can't remember going to a restaurant with you still like fish and chips i do still like fish vinegar on vinegar vinegar definitely yeah yeah yeah very important but then so i then got the chance to go you know on a journey that took me away from that sort of small town working class base to leeds university which was an incredible journey and one of the speeches i gave the other day was about um smashing the class ceiling and breaking the link between where children young people start in life and where they can get to and too many children young people are still that their future is determined by the earnings and income of their parents rather than their own ability this is incredible I mean you

know this is a moral mission like none other. But for me, I was now starting a different journey, which was off to university, which was fantastic. And so, I mean, it was eye-opening because you go from a small town to a city. I'd never really been to a big city like this before. Leeds is fun, isn't it? I'd gone as far as Croydon in South London. Poor thing.

But I hadn't got to, you know, a city like Leeds. And so suddenly you're, you know, this is a big city. It's diverse. There's lots of things going on. And suddenly my horizon for food just expanded massively. Where were the restaurants or the places that you were going out and eating? Indian restaurants. I'd never been to an Indian restaurant.

This was fantastic. Yeah. You know, Chinese restaurants. Curried chips. You know, Curried Chips Leeds. Indian restaurant this was fantastic yeah you know um Chinese restaurants um you know curry chips you know curry chips leaves I remember the first time curry sauce on your curry sauce on your chip but that's kind of northern thing isn't it yeah yeah it's not southern but it was such a you know that sort of journey opportunity social mobility call it what you like but it was suddenly my world was opening up and that included food because of the fact that we'd always eaten pretty traditional did you live in the hall of reticence i did yeah to start with and did you um and then you shared a flat then i

shared a flat for the second year yes i love cooking do you what was one of your university delights that you would offer up to your friends i I don't think delights would be the word. We had six of us in the house and we had a rota where each of us kicked one night in a week for everybody else. Oh, you had a rota. Was it all blokes? No, no, no. It was very democratic.

Three blokes, three girls in the house. All studying the same thing? No, different things. So I had one of my very best friends who was studying law with me. And then there was one person I'd been at school with, and then various others that we sort of connected with as we went on the journey. But, you know, as for the... It was...

The food was cheap as chips food, because the most important thing was the ingredients had to be cheap, because you're a student, you didn't have much money. And it was, you know, chili con carne or coronation chicken. Oh, that sounds quite fair. Chili con carne, yeah. When did you give up meat then? I gave up meat probably about 25 years ago.

So after university, I gave up meat. Why? As a matter of principle. Okay. And that's why i struggle with it because i love meat oh do you oh god i love it um god you really are principal i wouldn't be that principal but it's um and to start with i gave up fish as well but then um i went back to fish because i found it too much to lose but then i got together with v Vic my wife she's been proper vegetarian in the sense she doesn't eat meat or fish and she did that when she was eight or nine years old so no chicken soup

on a Friday night no chicken mock chicken soup it's very good yeah yeah tell me about it try it one day it's nice it's good so how do you make it well she does it with just a sort of mixed thing yeah um but and then the balls we've got yeah yeah okay then we've got two children so our boy is 15 and our girl is 12 do you cook meat for that so our girl has never in her life tasted meat or fish because until she gets to university well this is the thing having that chili con carne so so as soon as, what we said to the kids was, by the time they're about 10, it's up to you. Yeah. You know, we don't have meat or fish in the house.

We don't cook it. Until they're about 10, obviously they're just eating with us. Oh, I've got veggie friends who've always cooked meat for their children. Yeah, so we never did. And then at the age of 10, I said, you can do what you like. And our boy said, great. So he orders, the moment we go out, there's a delivery for Kentucky Fried Chicken or McDonald's.

So he's taken full sort of liberty with the license to do what he wants. But when you go out, he orders it? No, he will order meat. In front of you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we're not bothered by that. And you just smell it and think, oh, wow. This goes by.

So if you give up meat or fish on a matter of principle, you still sort of hanker after it and so when he brings it in house it's like do you do any of the kind of substitute like we do the this bacon or something like that and you'll do the seitan or you know kind of linda mccartney yeah we do all of that the corn sausages um, the Beyond Meat burgers, which are really good. Really good. I mean, quite a lot of the time if we're cooking, we don't bother with that because if you're doing pasta or something like that, you don't need to.

What's the veggie food like in the House of Commons? Oh, the food in the House of Commons is pretty, you know, it's nothing special. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought it was quite... Somebody needs to set up a really nice sort of restaurant or takeaway in the house. Maybe this is where... Seriously.

Mum, you're about to go into retirement. Maybe you should do that. Yes. A really nice salad bar, a fresh salad bar or something. You don't even have a fresh salad bar? No. No. Oh, wow. You've got to come in... You've got to come in as my guest to Parliament and have a look around and see what you make of the food and then, you know, to get in there and do something.

Can I ask, when you're having dinner or lunch in the House of Parliament, do you only sit with people from the same party or have you got mates in the Tory party or the Liberals? Or is it like quite cliquey? No, there is almost never a slot put in my diary for lunch and therefore there isn't such a thing as a lunch break therefore you know i'll be eating on the move or between meetings etc but the second part of your question is really interesting which is you know what's the is it all tribal yeah um for some people it is like that not for me because i think i came into politics later in life. I'd done other jobs. I'd been a lawyer.

So you'd sit next to Nadine and have... Well, I'm not sure about that. But there are Tories and other MPs that I get on perfectly well with. Well, that lovely lady who spoke about Harriet Harman last week. Yeah, she was really good. Wow, wasn't she fabulous? Yeah. about Harriet Harman last week.

Yeah, she was really good. Wow, wasn't she fabulous? Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, when in the middle of the really fierce Brexit debates, I was leading for our party on it. So in the middle of the debates and my dad was dying

and it was awful. And so I'd have to sort of be in the middle of this debate and then leave that at the end of the debate and then get a train down to the hospital it was in and it was a really it was the first time i had that very intense public person private grief going on and two or three of the tory mps reached out to me

particularly when he died and that sort of thing you can't really you can't ever say there's such tribal politics that we can't get on and do things together or talk or have coffee or eat if we had time. So, you know, I'm not a great believer in that, you know, divisive politics. Well, we were thinking, Jesse's been thinking about how divided our country is at the minute. Well, it's more about the culture wars and just kind of how it feels so polarising and particularly for my generation

it just feels like I mean, yeah, everyone's got an opinion and I feel like the right really use marginalised groups such as immigrants or queer people, trans people to really use them as pawns to kind of... And how do you feel, do you feel

exhausted by it? I feel... You feel responsible. I feel responsible, particularly for... I have a huge queer following and I feel incredibly responsible when I'm speaking to you, the leader of opposition, to kind of...

How do I phrase one question to you when this is about food and family and there's so many questions that so many people have? I think you're the first person when we've mentioned you were coming on and everybody had a question for you oh that's great every single person that's really good i mean not all that friendly you can imagine yeah no no you know that's completely understood and you know and and so it should be you know there's always going to be that combination of people who support what you're doing, want to challenge what you're doing.

But how do you unite everybody when it feels so polarising? You talk about respect and dignity being so important for you. How do you please everybody? You can't please everybody, right? No, you can't please everybody. But you can. Joe Cox, who was a fantastic, fantastic friend and MP, came into Parliament on the same day as me,

and just a tragic story. But obviously she did her maiden speech when she said we've got more in common than that which divides us. That is so powerful and so meaningful. And I think that amongst the reasons the Conservatives have gone into this toxic space of divide, culture wars, is because they haven't got a record that they can stand on.

They haven't got any leadership that they can really believe in. And therefore they've gone to this divisive place. And that relies on a politics that says, let's find the points of difference. So if you and I are going to have a conversation, let's find where we don't agree, rather than trying to find what we do agree on. So it becomes an echo chamber and then nothing comes out. Yeah, we have to break out of that because it's exhausting. It puts people into camps they don't really want to be in. They entrench in those camps.

And it means that there's a sort of collective lack of sort of belief in politics as a force for good because everybody just goes further and further to one side or other in the debate and just shouts at each other or shouts past each other so nobody is listening in this it's very corrosive for the idea that i really believe in which is that politics ought to be a force for good so we have to find a way to get through that and there are i mean this is going back to the thing about different MPs. After Joe Cox died, Theresa May joined the sort of campaign around loneliness, which was one of Joe's sort of themes, on a cross-party basis. So there is the ability to do that. And we desperately need to get back to that. I mean, Kit, it's such a task that you have on your hands.

And I just don't know where you start like when when if you get into power where do you start like what do you start with immigration uh i i like it feels it does it not feel rather i mean you can't yeah don't and why do you want to do it because i want to change the country for the better i absolutely passionately do you think think about the impact on your kids? Yeah. That they're going to be followed by horrible right-wing press trying to bring you down or trip you up? Yeah, it's a journey, as all these things are.

I didn't come into Parliament to be leader of the Labour Party or to become the Prime Minister. I came into Parliament in the hope that Ed Miliband would win the 2015 election, and I might just about become the Prime Minister. I came into Parliament in the hope that Ed Miliband would win the 2015 election, and I might just about become the Attorney General or something in his cabinet. So this wasn't something... And the election, getting Labour into government,

is not about me. It's not about me going through the door of number 10. It's not about my shadow cabinet becoming the cabinet. It's not even about the Labour Party. It's about the country. It's about taking the country forward. So that's where i sort of come from on it and that drives me forward and i know there's tough things and we'll have to do tough things and make difficult decisions but you know and i try not to get ahead of myself but what you touched on there one of the

things that i'm most worried about is the impact on our children now we've been as protective as i hope we can be so we never name them in public we never have promotional photos done with them and you continue to not do that when your prime if you're going to be hard yeah it's going to be hard i mean obviously we're out and about with them and so people know who they are and they see them but by and large that's been respected and protected so that they can get on with their lives. I do worry, though, because our boy was 15 the other week. So he will, I'm assuming the election is next year, you know, either May or October, that he will be 16.

And our daughter is 12, going on 16 or 17 already. She will be 13. These are really important ages. And it will have an impact on their lives. Have you spoken... I mean, who's had... If you make it to number 10, who's had similar age groups in there? Because Tony Blair's were younger. Tony's were a bit younger

and then Ed's were a little bit younger as well. And Boris has got so many that we don't... I mean, he's got a few in every decade. So I don't know. I can't remember now the age of David Cameron's children. They were quite young. And then he sadly lost a child as well while he was in...

But, like, today, Jesse's been in the sports day with the mums race. Are you participating in sports days and things like that? Not anymore, but that's... Why not? Football injury? No, because... How old are your children now? participating in sports days and things like that not anymore but why not football injury no because um how old are your children now six four and two so what happened to us and i think this happens to every parent is you lovingly walk the kids to school and pick them up and i used to make a real habit however busy i was to try and make sure that several days a week i was there at the school gates

because you know i do not want to be that man, and it is usually men, who say in years to come, I wish I'd spent more time with your kids. If you want to spend more time with your kids, spend more time with your kids. But there does come a point, and it's going to come, I'm afraid, probably the last year at primary school, where certainly our kids said,

can you just drop me at the corner, Dad? Because they're growing up, and the idea of me pitching up to now secondary school for them would be something that would, you know, that's just a no-go. They do not want me there on sports day. This is coming, I'm afraid. It's coming. No, Jesse. I want to know, you've got teenagers.

They must be politically minded, or are they completely kind of just don't want to know about it do you have debates with them around the dinner table is it a very different situation than what it was say they wanted to join the conservatives could you imagine that we do talk politics we talk you know broadly i try not to impose it on them obviously what are they most interested about talking to you about? Oh, work, the job, what goes on. I mean, genuine. So our boy came into Parliament last week.

Yeah. And was fascinated. Came into some of the debates, sat in the debates. He knew more of our frontbenchers than I thought. I mean, he recognised them. So he would say, I'm not interested in politics. And he says in very strong terms, I'm not going into politics. He's decided, having watched me, that he's not going to become a lawyer.

He's not going to become a politician. But it's quite interesting that deep down, he's beginning to sort of explore those ideas. Our girl, slightly less, she's only 12. So she's just developing those ideas. And I wouldn't thrust it on them i mean we've only got two rules for our kids which is happy and confident so i'm not when we wouldn't say they've got to go off to university they've got to become this that or the other we genuinely just want them to be happy and confident yeah i mean that's all you want right it's yeah and kind

maybe i think i'm doing all right with you then, darling. Yeah, very good. You're quite confident and you're happy. Yeah, doing great things. I'm doing okay. I'm now terrified about my children and being happy, confident. No, but congratulations on everything you've achieved. I mean, it's incredible. Thank you. All the music stuff.

Thank you. It's through the roof. You know, trying. Let's talk about music, actually. I went clubbing the other weekend. I want to know last time you went clubbing, Keir. Gosh, I can't remember. You're into me.

I've really enjoyed your Desert Island Discs. Oh, yeah. Well, I'll tell you a very funny story about that. Because, obviously, what I tried to do was pick songs that meant something to me on the journey. So Jim Reeves was the first one because it reminded me of my mum. I went through classical music, you know, Northern Soul, I love, Orange Juice, Edwin Collins, that sort of thing.

But I ended with Stormzy with Bridge Over Troubled Water, which I think is a fantastic, a beautiful song. It was actually a Grenfell tribute song as well, and it's beautiful. And our kids are quite into Stormzy, particularly our boy. And so it was something that ended it. No, I haven't. Although I went to his um record um company when and they

played me his um latest album which is really good really really good um and he was sort of texting them at the time saying what does he think of it what does he think of it so i haven't but so i so i chose that as my final song and that's fine and um and then was at a pub. This was about six months ago. And just with Vic and a couple of friends of ours, so just, you know, very social. And some guy comes up to me at the bar and says, you're a fraud. And I said, well, you're a, you know,

no wonder we don't vote for you. You're a fraud. I said, you know, I'm on my, I'm with my wife. What are you talking about? He said, Desert Island Discs. And I thought, of all, I'm with my wife. What are you talking about? He said, Desert Island Discs. And I thought, of all the challenges I've had on our politics of policy, this guy's actually challenging me. He didn't like your music.

No, he said, you don't listen to Stormzy. You're not being honest. And I said, did you listen to it? Because I wasn't saying I listened to Stormzy. I was using records which told a story or reminded me of bits in my life but it was so interesting to be challenged on is that then when you made the call to the label to be like can I go in and listen to Stormzy's new record please no but uh I should have been like quick quick you must go listen that's so interesting are people

often rude to you do they come up when you're out and say, oh? By and large, people are really positive. Good. And that is great. But, you know, it can go either way, but by and large. And I'm still in the relatively lucky position. I can walk down the high street, I mean, you know, without too much aggravation. Those things change. How do taxi drivers treat you if you get in a black cab yeah because

they've always got something to say they're not big fans of sadiq i have to say no well i i now have to have a oh you can't a police team with me um every time i'm out so that thank god for that please report back yeah no but you know what black cab drivers are like. Should we eat? Yeah. Oh, God. I mean, you must just be exhausted. It's busy. It's busy.

Do you think it will be even more full on if you get into number 10? Yes, it's really hard. And, you know, again, that's just the way it is. But then it's a question of trying to ensure that we find time. So I'm really, really clear. I will not do, unless it's absolutely urgent or a special reason, I won't do a Friday night event. So at six o'clock we'll go home and we will be as a family

home on a Friday night together. Vic's dad comes over sometimes. He's 94 and so he comes to us at the weekend quite a lot. For people that don't know, your wife is Jewish. Yes, she is. Yes. So her family are from Poland,

originally. And so Friday nights is Shabbat. Yeah. So we do, particularly when her dad's there, we do prayers, et cetera. And,

but we're all in and we want, you know, and I want that to last, you that to last for as long as it can because the kids are in and that sort of thing. I got bat mitzvahed at the end of last year. Oh, did you? Yeah, and when I remember, we do Friday nights, and there's something incredibly meditative about that feeling

of being able to kind of say goodbye to the week and actually pause for a moment and look each other in the eye and have a conversation over the dinner table and say the broccas. And I don't know, there's something I find incredibly reassuring about it when I'm not working on a Friday night. I think that's probably right. And for me knowing, for the kids knowing, Vic knowing, that we, you know, barring exceptional weeks,

we will all be there on a Friday night together, is it's a sort of rock in the week, if you like. You know, now, a lot of it is spent arguing about if we're going to get a takeaway, what we're going to get, or all the rest of it. But it is really nice and special. Oh, look at this. Mum. That is, so that's pilpul prawns.

Okay. Right. So, speak, Mum. You tell Kieran what you've got. That's a tomato tart. Lovely. That's pilpul prawns, like just garlicy prawns. That's, it's like guacamole, but no avoc tart. Lovely. That's pil-pil prawns, like just garlic prawns. That's, it's like guacamole, but no avocados.

Yeah. You don't like avocados? What's that about? Just the taste of the taste. It's guacamole and avocados and bananas. Okay, well, we're all right. I can't eat or even smell bananas. There's something about bananas.

This is from when I was very, very young. This is aubergine. No, that's absolutely lovely. So that's tomato, that's pea lentils, and that's courgette salad. Fantastic. And that's enough for about 100 people. And I love salad.

Salad is fantastic. Good. So this is really good. Let's hope this works. So what did you have for lunch today he doesn't stop today somebody fed in today i had a tuna sandwich i've had lorry loads of tuna sandwiches since i've been in this job it's just you know this was on during the middle of a meeting um tuna sandwich homemade or no no just brought in from uh prep today but we're gonna love what the

baguette or the sandwich yeah but it's um you know the routine for the week is sort of monday tuesday wednesday in parliament or headquarters in london then out on the road for the rest of the time so lunch is just i can't remember the last time I stopped and had lunch as a meal, as it were, rather than just a sandwich on the road or a sandwich whilst we're working. This is really fantastic. Do you like it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, really good. The tomato, it's really good. It's delicious. Really nice. It's really good. I like it. A chef called Alison Roman, who's amazing, came on, and this is from her new recipe book

is it from her new mum? I love cooking I find it so relaxing I know this sounds really weird and I'm not going to pretend I do it every night because I don't and Vic does most of the cooking during the week for the kids

quite often I'm not home in time but on a Saturday I love it. So I've got a sort of routine of... There's Craig Charles to Radio 6. Six Music. Funk and Soul. But it's six o'clock.

So good. I love it. And it's just this... So that's the point at which I'll sort of go into the kitchen. So you're not listening to Dad Ringers? No. Craig Charles. So Six Music is your choice?

Yep. And then I've got it on, six o'clock, and I start chopping away and preparing and just poppling around the kitchen. I love it. What was your last meal that you cooked that you can remember? Well, so I cook nearly every week. So the latest one, I love tandoori salmon.

And I've had fantastic we were up in Glasgow with the team Mr. Singh's in Glasgow that's a really fantastic curry restaurant the best tandoori salmon I've ever had really really brilliant so I thought right I've got to cook this

so then I've had several goes at it. And so that's probably the last thing. But I had, because Vic and the kids don't eat fish. Oh, gosh. So we got these corn pieces, which I also did, you know, tandoori. Like paneer, is it almost? It's almost like, no, it's chicken. It's intended to be sort of imitation chicken. And is it nice? it almost it's it's almost like you know it's chicken it's intended to be

sort of imitation chicken so and is it nice yes it's good yeah so but i mean and there are other dishes that i love doing on a saturday i mean the problem i run into is i want it to be as different and as elaborate and as experimental as possible because that's part of the enjoyment is seeing what it's like different ingredients etc but then for the kids it's like we want pasta and smart sauce we don't want to try anything else so i get into this battle so i have to do sort of um pasta bakes that are as elaborate as i can get away with until until it gets to the point where they won't um enjoy or eat it. Okay, well this leads us into Last Supper. You're going to... This is the last supper, so you're...

Well, you don't have to be dying. death row thing because it makes me feel horrible. So you're going on a desert island for about six months. No, I'd say, let's go a year. So,

one of the things I did when I was a lawyer was work with the death penalty project, which is a project based here in London to minimise and get rid of the death penalty across the world, particularly in the English-speaking former colonies. So I did extensive cases in the Caribbean, probably went to the Caribbean about 50 times, to represent people and to fight for people not to be hung so i've got as close to something or closer than i wanted to be to that feeling wow is there still the death penalty there now yeah there is i mean because of the work of the death penalty project it's been much reduced um but it's and they're

hung there it's death by hanging yeah so i mean and that's very you know when you're in a the prisons in you know jamaica trinidad they're not nice places as you can imagine sitting in a dark cell with someone who is um destined to be hanged it's really it's incredible moment and obviously we're fighting to save normally his life there were some women that we represented in Uganda but knowing that in this legal case if you get it right this person will live and if you don't and you don't succeed then they will in all likelihood be hung how many did you say oh i mean i'd say we because we worked the team the whole time um hundreds we went when we went to uganda um there were over 400 people in one test case that we did at the same time and

we met them there in the in kampala which which is obviously the center of Uganda the prison is up high up on a hill and you go in the prison it's high security all of the prisoners are in white shorts and a white vest and we sat there with all 400 of them talking through the case we're going to be running on their behalf it's like a film set and some of them had been there 20 years some of them were under 18 when they'd been convicted and in the end in that case we won on behalf of all 400 of them which didn't mean they were released from prison but it meant they weren't going to get hung and they could be they could have the the appropriate sentence for whatever they'd done it was incredible thing to do. So, you know, it was really... That was as close to the last supper as I wanted to get.

Did you ever see them eating their last supper? Did you ever stay with them for that part? No, we were never there. And most of the time, I'm really happy to say, the people we represented, we managed to get off death row. And so we didn't very often go through that horror of um someone you're representing okay so you're not going okay so this is a last step i'm gonna go i don't know i'm gonna go to a nice island or something you're

gonna go to a nice island but limited food are we limited yeah okay so so so you've got to choose a starter a main a pudding and a drink of choice. Starter, I'm going to go for a salad. Really? Yeah. Jesus, Keir, come on. You're going to lose a few votes for that. I love salad.

I love salad. And I'm going to go for a seaweed salad with chilli. Oh my goodness, I've never heard of this. This is fantastic. Curdball. So this goes, this isn't intended to link, but now it does. When we were doing all these cases in the Caribbean, we used to have to go via, from the top end of the Caribbean,

you go in via Miami and then fly across. And so we would be several hours in Miami. And there were two dishes in Miami that, there was blackened fish. Yeah. Which, fantastic. Yeah. And seaweed salad with chilli.

A big bowl of it. So is it like sunfire? Yeah. It's a bit sort of thinner and crispier. Sunfire seaweed. No, I know, but like it's a different kind. It's not a salt. It is fantastic.

Is it salty? It's salty with chilli in. It is really. Have you ever tried to make it? No. Okay. I will try one day. I've not even ever really found it anywhere else.

I've never. It must be on. It's worth going to miami for that but it was really incredible okay i like that you kind of won me back okay although i nearly lost you with starting with salad hopefully that's and then i'm going to go for my tandoori salmon because i love it from mr sings i probably have to go take away from mr sings fine no problem i don't know where this can make it? Have you just put your tandoori paste? Yeah, so that's... He's been trying to perfect it. That's the one I've done most recently,

which is, and I've done it now three or four times to try and get it right. With all the, you know, get all the ingredients, make the paste, marinate it. Oh, don't do that. Really? That's too short. You're a perfectionist.

Yeah, but I also, I tend to follow the recipe rather than just sort of doing it without I'll give you Alison Rembrandt's book so that's the sort of most recent thing I've learned I'm also trying to perfect

the perfect arrabbiata from scratch which again just getting the right blend and that the kids will eat so they like spicy yes okay um you like spicy i like spicy yeah okay so my tandoori salmon is well maybe i missed a thing i'm not going to make this meal any sides um yeah probably some um we always get sort of dals and that sort of thing which non naan do you go for? Plain naan. Plain naan. Really?

Yeah. Why? Which one do you go for? Peshawari. Peshawari? Show off. No, the reason is because the kids wouldn't really eat anything other than a plain naan. So there's a bit of accommodation there.

Okay. And pilau rice. Yeah. Which they would prefer white rice, so we have a little battle about that. Okay. So I'm going to have this tandoori salmon. And then pud? I think lemon cheesecake.

Oh, do you like a cheesecake? A baked cheesecake or a non-baked cheesecake? Baked. Baked. So like Jewish cheesecake. Yeah, very light. Yeah, a proper New York cheesecake.

Yeah. Yeah, I like that too. So that's where I'd go, I think. And what are you drinking? I drink Pinot Grigio because this is Vic's wine of choice. Oh, really? Yeah. You're very accommodating.

She's very easy to please. Is she allowed to have this meal with me, by the way? Yeah. We might not have the Tandoori salmon then. I might have to think about something else for the middle course. But your team before you came said that you drink beer and wine. And I realised that I have no clue about beer, so do you drink an IPA or a lager?

Oh which one? IPA usually things like Doombar but our local pub is called Pineapple fantastic local pub. The Pineapple, that's like a rowdy one. No it's not rowdy The Pineapple, like the one that's in Camden or? Kentristown. Yeah it's like a rowdy one. No, it's not rowdy. The pineapple, like the one that's in Camden. Kentish Town.

Yeah, it's like a fun, not rowdy, but like, I've been to parties there. I bet you you've been on a night when there's something going on at the O2. Because it's a sort of stop off point on the way. No, I've been like, the pineapple's like a fun one. It is. I'm not saying it's not fun, but it's more a sort of local. Like when I was in Man Like Me Me they were a Camden based band they'd always have

like afters at the Pineapple yeah interesting okay so what do you drink there they've got an IPA called Pineapple

which is really good which is and who makes it which brewery I don't know actually okay see I know nothing about beer

so the only the only time I drink a beer from IPA is if I play football and it's a hot day. You've kind of got to have a cold lager. Because it's just, I don't know, it's just one of those things that just goes with it. But wine is, white wine. I drink red as well, but Vic doesn't drink red.

How easy is it to switch off from trying to become the leader of this country really hard and sometimes if I've got something going on I find it almost impossible and then that's really hard for Vic and the kids because it's obviously I'm distracted and I'm only half listening I'm not engaged and it's a really bad thing but it is very difficult so if I'm doing media in the morning, for example, I did Laura Kunzberg this week. Was that fun for you? Is it ever fun? Well, you know, the interview was 25 minutes or something, but the amount of time...

So intense. So that means that the Saturday evening before is just completely distracted because I'm thinking about it. And then that is really frustrating for Vic and the kids because it's obvious that I'm sort of half detached from it. And even if I'm in the same room as them, I'm, you know... And the kids joke and say to each other, he can't do two things at once when they're trying to have a conversation.

I'm trying to sort of look at something for the morning. We wondered how you manage, because we've got a majority quite right wing press in this country i mean there's only two papers that i think that are supportive of the labour party how do you manage that well the first thing is i read all the papers every day we get them delivered so i go through how do you how long does that take well i say read i look at each one to see what's the lead story, what's the editorial, what are the sort of interesting bits and pieces of today,

what are they saying about us, what are they saying about me. Do your kids get fed up when they're mean about you? Or do you think they're quite protected to not know about that? They're a mixture, a really good mixture, of being protective, but also bringing me back down to earth the whole time. And I'll give you just two examples of that.

So last year I won the Spectator Politician of the Year Award. So that's Spectator. That's all time. And they gave me a framed certificate, which I then took home about 10 o'clock at night. And our boy is sitting on the settee with his feet up watching telly. And I came in and i looked i gave it to him i said what do you think of this and he looked at it and then without really

taking his eyes off the telly or his feet off the settee he passed it back to me and said how did you blag that then it was just fantastic and the other one was our daughter this was a few years ago now when she said what time you're going to be home? And I said, oh, I'm going to be late tonight. I'm afraid. Why? What are you doing? I'm doing a fundraising dinner. She said, what's that? I said, well, it's a dinner where people pay money to hear somebody speak.

And she said, who's speaking? And I said, me. And she said, why would anyone pay to hear you speak? And it was like a slow motion sort of car crash you could almost sense where she was going and now she'd do it to be cheeky um but then that was just this incredulity um it's a it's a really fantastic leveler so they the moment i walk through the door i've got to be dad i've got to be dad and I love that that's great and that's as it should be how

do they ever go dad so and so says you're being a dick on this or like so and so says that you really

are being mean about this you know have they ever brought home politics because in the playground people talk parents talk

like they no they don't they don't I mean now and this is nice lots of people come up and want a selfie and that sort of thing and they get really fed up about that particularly our boy because if i walk down the high street with him he wants me to be with him not constantly you know being stopped and having to talk to other people and that that's trying to

find that space with them is quite hard sometimes. And there's no end of people who say, I can see you're with your family, so I won't interfere and then sit down and have a sort of 20-minute conversation. You're public property, aren't you, really? Yeah, but that does, they get a bit fed up with that. Do you go to parties at Downing Street? Have you been invited? I've never been invited to one of the Downing Street parties, no. Are you kidding? Thankfully, particularly the ones during Covid.

Otherwise, I might not be sitting here. No. I think all Prime Ministers make a habit of keeping leaders of the opposition well away from Downing Street. It's a bit mean. Have you been inside? And what's it like?

It's a working... I mean, it's a fantastic building, iconic. What do you think of the recent decor? I haven't seen that decor. You haven't been close, yeah. Rishi might have changed it. Oh, Rishi probably has. Maybe he likes their style.

Yeah, I thought there was some story about it. It had been changed, but I don't know. What a waste of money. But anyway, I haven't been there. I would like to know where... You've talked about the pineapple. You've talked about Mr Singh's. Are there any go-to spots that Sir Keir Starmer couldn't live without? Any local restaurants that you absolutely adore?

Yeah, there's an Italian called Rosella up the road, which is run by a friend of ours, and it's fantastic. And if we're not eating at home, we'll sometimes go there on a Friday. And again, that's where Vic and her dad can get together and where her sister will come with her daughter. So that's just a really locally-based, straightforward Italian restaurant that is probably our go-to if we're going to go out. There's also a really good curry house up in Highgate.

Where do you get your fish and chips? The nearest place now is just in Highgate. But fish and chips, if I'm getting fish and chips, I wouldn't normally go as a takeaway because Vic's not going to eat it. Our daughter's not going to eat it. So that would be more when I'm on the road with the team. Oh, yeah.

If we're staying over in a hotel or something like that. But it's good. Good fish and chips. Hard to beat. Would you like a bit, Kim? I will do. Yeah, please. That looks fantastic.

I hope so. Really fantastic. Just a small bit for me, please. Okay. Like that? Yeah. I mean, I almost never eat desserts. It's just...

Why? I don't know. I'm not particularly sweet almost never eat desserts. Why? I don't know. I'm not particularly sweet-toothed, so I just don't. Just pavlova, made with nectarines. I'll have that one, and then you have a more beautiful one. No, I don't mind. I'm fine. So I very rarely make dessert, because it's not really my thing.

At some stage, I do want to try and get into baking. Everybody says baking is a really good thing to get into. I guess if you like cooking and it's kind of you can switch off when you're doing it. I just find baking quite tedious. I'm really bad at it. But why not? You're a perfectionist so you

could master, you know, I feel like it requires attention to detail. I'll give it a go at some stage. Oh, I honestly don't mind. I feel like it requires attention to detail. I'll give it a go at some stage. It's better that one. Oh, I honestly don't mind. I do. Before we let you go,

is there one smell or scent that can take you back somewhere, happy or sad, or taste? I think the smell of cut grass takes me back to beginning to play grass football and you know going onto a pitch that's been cut so when I was probably first time I went on a decent pitch

was probably when I was about 10 playing in an under 11 league where they cut the grass and it's that smell of fresh grass that's just been cut you do still get it at football grounds not so much because now the grass is sort of integrated a bit with other stuff. You don't get the same

cut smell. But that takes me back to sort of cycling around Surrey and Kent. I played for Kent Boys League for a team there and just walking on the pitch. And I love, I can't tell you how

joyful walking onto a pitch is for me. It's just stepping onto the grass with a football. You could be the Arsenal mascot. I'm not sure about that. We want to wish them luck. Are the conversations, you know,

you have that person talking to you in the pub about your Stormzy selection. In the stands, are people asking you very different, do you feel like in different spaces you are asked repeatedly a similar question? No, there's different things people

ask. Can you enjoy the game or do you just get hounded with questions? No, I can enjoy the game because round us the people we're with there, I've known for two or three rows in front, one of the guys in front that we've got to know through sitting there his wife sends

pecoras on the last game in a top you know there's just things so that it's a bit like the people I play football with they wouldn't bombard me

with things about work because they know I've been in those seats for I don't know how many years now so they knew me before I was even a politician and so they wouldn't do that but you do I mean you you do get it at football you know people come up to you people have ideas people have challenges people tell

you what they're passionate about so you do and people do notice what you've been doing so occasionally they'll say I saw you did this that week or that you know so it does cut through but um i mean in the in the crowd in the stand-up football it's all about the football it's just you get well you know what this is like you just get totally drawn in you're all there sort of enduring and enjoying you know to shut obscenities out not anymore not anymore since you've been in not anymore because somebody will take a picture of that and record me. But there's... I mean, the moment, if you're in the crowd, a goal is scored.

It's so funny. And there's just this... All these people, you know, tens of thousands of people have been doing something else all week, live in different places, don't all know each other, and at that moment, they come together and everybody gets up. It's like the choreography that is natural in that is absolutely incredible. And it's an amazing moment in football.

OK, Keir, when's the general election come to be? I don't know. Do you think it'll be November? Next year. This year? I don't know. I mean, from my point of view, the sooner the better. And I say that because people are really suffering now.

They can't pay their bills. Their mortgage is going through the roof. Every day this government's here, it just gets worse. So for the country's sake, we need it soon. My hunch is that it'll go at least into the early part of next year. Could go all the way through to the end of next year. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's up to the government when they go.

They'll go at whatever point they think is best for them. And there's nothing we can do about that. That's just one of the prices of, if you lose an election, you lose the right to say when the next election is. So, but we'll be ready whenever it is. Sukiya Starmer, thank you for joining us on Table Manners. It's been lovely to get to know you a little bit better.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for the food. It was delicious, but company's been great. Thank you, and best of luck with all those tuna sandwiches that you're about to enjoy. Thank you. Well, I thought he was absolutely charming, but such a strong sense of public service. And responsibility.

And responsibility. I mean, I felt when he talked about the Stormzy song, he should be heavy as the head that wears the crown I'm telling you but he might have do you feel like you learned anything new about Sikiris Dharma I do he didn't come from a political background it was fascinating listening to him talking about his family yeah and his admiration for his mother and father and they weren't a wealthy family that you know they they were striving to make the best of their lives thank you sir Keir Starmer for coming over and

doing the podcast thank you so much to everyone that has listened to this series of table manners we will be back after well a little hiatus um Lenny's going on holiday for a month and then I'm going to be um joining her for some of it whilst we may not be having any new guests around over the summer we've decided to do to remind people of some of the fabulous people we've had

so whilst you may not hear some new episodes some of you may have joined us three years in and we have plenty of wonderful material that came before so we will be offering up on the table some wonderful episodes from previous years. But yeah, we'll see you soon. Lenny will have a fabulous tan.

She'll have some new Greek recipes. She'll be talking about how beautiful Skopelos is. I shall be talking about touring again and we'll be getting some brilliant, brilliant guests. Thank you so much for listening to us. We love doing it. Thank you for supporting us, listening to us we love doing it yes yeah we absolutely love doing it we love hearing from you please email us at hello at table manners podcast um and take care of yourselves and we'll speak have a good summer have a lovely summer Thank you.