Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S15 Ep 4: Alastair Campbell

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

Mum hasn’t been this excited since Ed Miliband came over to Clapham, this week we have the formidable Alastair Campbell over for dinner! Alastair talks to us about his new book 'But What Can I Do?', a book that encourages us to keep fighting the good fight even when everything feels bleak and hopeless. We talk about Gary Lineker and the BBC, his fantastic podcast 'The Rest is Politics', having dinner with Princess Diana, his ketchup phobia, a deep love of Fish Soup and Chocolate Mousse, a hatred of fine dining and amuse bouches. It’s all in there! An inspiring, fascinating conversation. Thank you Alastair Campbell. Pre-order the book now x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

hello and welcome to table manners i don't think lenny has been more excited about a guest why are you so excited because it's just my cup of tea it really is isn't it he's exactly what i like in a man you haven't been this tickled since miller band i haven't what is it about labor spin doctors that really excites me toot your horn not that it's the politicians that i'm excited about darling and talking about what we can do to try and change things he's full of ideas we have alistair campbell on the podcast so excited we had his daughter grace Grace, a brilliant comedian. We had her at Edinburgh, the live shows. Fabulous.

And I hope he's going to talk politics, darling. Well, I think that's all he can do. He's got a new book called But What Can I Do? Why Politics Has Gone So Wrong and How You Can Help Fix It. I started reading it. He warns you, the first half is pretty depressing because it's all about what went wrong. And then he has in the first half is pretty depressing because it's all about what went wrong and then

he has in the second half solutions of how to not feel like we're all doomed and about how to engage if you're feeling a little disengaged it's a really good book it's part handbook part kind of motivational speaking and he writes so accessibly and if you listen to his podcast I love his podcast the rest is politics the rest is politics which he presents with ex-tory mp rory stewart a tory mp with a heart i'd say um let's see what alistair thinks yeah um got lots to ask him got lots to ask him also who who's production company well it's gazza isn't it Has he been on the phone advising Gary Lineker this weekend? Well, whatever he did or didn't do, the outcome has been very positive, I would say.

We need to know. Alice Campbell, I met him recently at a fundraiser for Tessa Jowell, who was a very well-loved MP, Labour MP, who also was my friend's mum, Jess and she asked me to sing at a fundraiser because Tessa died of brain cancer and I sat opposite Alistair and he told me a lot about his love for ABBA he was ready to give me a

playlist of what to do so we've got lots to talk about. I wonder what his favourite song is He'll tell you, I think he'd been to see ABBA Voyage like three times He got his bagpipes out, oh my god we should have asked him to bring the to talk about. I wonder what his favourite song is. Well, he'll tell you. I think he'd been to the Abba Voyage like three times. He got his bagpipes out. Oh my God, we should have asked him to bring the bagpipes. He does like to play a bagpipe. He's a big football fan.

Burnley. Burnley. He is really interesting. And this new book is for everybody who just feels like everything is ruined. There's no point in protesting. there's no point in protesting, there's no point in thinking that anything's going to improve.

He tries to tell you that all is not lost and we're going to hear more about the book later. I think he's here right now. Alistair Campbell, coming up on Taming Arms. Alistair Campbell, you are here. You've been schlepping around Clapham South. You're a very impressive man, but you can't use Google Maps. Every time the arrow... I hate that bloody compass.

I go in the wrong direction. Me too. So I ended up going the wrong side of the common. That's so annoying. Shit, you've been mild. So it went up from 12 minutes to 15 minutes. I thought, fuck, I'm going the wrong side of the common that's so annoying shit you've been miles and then it sort of so it went up from 12 minutes

to 15 minutes I thought fuck I'm going the wrong way so then I did the thing I asked somebody I might you know and these anybody under 50

basically takes your phone off you and shows you how you do it yeah so I've probably took me about 40 minutes to get here from the tube

oh my god it's like a kind of 11-minute walk. Yeah, it is. I'm sorry. No, it's not your fault. You're here. I'm here and it's lovely.

Do you like walking? I love walking. Do you? I like walking in the dark. Do you? Why? Nobody can see you and you can just sort of drift off. Do you listen to stuff when you're walking?

Yeah, I listen to music. I listen to a lot of music. Abba? I do listen to stuff when you're walking yeah I listen to music there's a lot of music Abba I do listen to Abba yeah mum's got mum's I told mum about

when we met yeah and that you said how much you loved Abba and you've been to the Abba Voyage she went oh I've got a bottle of water for him in the

in the the one that they get oh you've got the Abba Voyage water yeah I've got loads of those yeah every time I go there I pick up a new three bottle

every time now how many times pick up a new bit every time now how many times have you been three and does it keep on getting better it keeps on getting different oh really

have they changed it no not at all the experience is different oh I see what you mean because he was going to add some more songs well yeah the first time I went

I went on the opening night and because I'm very friendly with a woman called Svana from Iceland and the whole thing is her project right okay that's convenient isn't it yeah how did you meet Svana Svana met Svana through her friend Rachel Kinnock uh daughter of Neil and Glenys who's a very good friend of ours and she just I can't remember how they met and worked and became really good friends so she she invited me to the opening night. So I was actually sitting behind, with Rachel and a few other people, was sitting behind the King of Sweden and the Queen of Sweden,

who's the original Dancing Queen, who they wrote the song for. Oh my God, is that what it's about? Yeah. They wrote the song for the Dancing Queen the night before they got married. God, how did we miss that one, Jess? Oh, for God's sake. You know nothing about it, have you? No.

And the people in front of us were the four. We were sitting behind these people, four people, and they were hugging each other. They were laughing. They were crying. And I thought, this must be their grandchildren or their kids, something to do with family. So at the end, I said, are you with them?

Are you part of the family or something? She said, no, we're the four dancers who actually did their moves. Oh, how interesting. All their moves that they were doing, these four kids. So clever, isn't it? It's amazing. So that was the first time. That was amazing.

The second time, we went with fiona and grace and a friend of the podcast grace campbell grace campbell friend of your podcast and a friend of my podcast as well loves the podcast um and and so we went there and it was a bit different because the people we we i think it was a bit kind of corporate where we were sitting all right so right. So, like, everybody gets up after a while, but the people around us didn't. And the people behind us actually said, would you mind sitting down? Oh.

Oh, no, they didn't. Oh, no. Fuck off. What did you say? I said, I think this is more about you than us. And so, and I just thought, no, I'm not sitting down because just why should I? Why should we sit down when virtually everybody's standing up?

And then the next time I went was, oh, no, sorry, that was the third time I went. And the second time I went was it was like you felt less conscious of the fact that it was all this technological stuff going on. So you actually felt more like you were just watching Apple. Connected. But I felt like that straight away

well that's good because I was just so mesmerised by the technology and I was mesmerised by the live band playing with them yeah they were brilliant

because that just made it feel like so live yeah it was great and also each night though I'm not suggesting you go every night

but each night the audience is a bit different so did you ever go on like a Friday or a Saturday a bit more rowdy I can't remember what days. So did you ever go on a Friday or a Saturday? A bit more rowdy.

I can't remember what days I went. Hendo. Did you wear a sequined beret? No, I didn't. No, I was a bit staid, probably. Yeah. Well, it's your fourth time, isn't it? Oh, there's a lot of dressing up going on, yeah. Yeah, it's fab, yeah.

So, I mean, Alistair, we've got lots to talk about, but this is a food podcast, but we are here to talk about the new book. Are you? Yeah. Is everyone here? No. Well. We are here because we're desperate for you to come. We're desperate to talk about the new book are you yeah i'm here no well we are here because we're desperate we're desperate to know about the gossip have you spoken to gary yeah did you advise him were you director of comms this weekend and strategy for gary yeah yeah

linica yeah the football commentator yeah He produces, it's your production company. National Treasure, Gary. No. No is the answer to that. However. Did you have a call? No, I did. I've been in touch. But the thing is that I was,

I think what I did, and I didn't do this because I, I didn't do this because of any connection. Yeah. I would have done this if it had been anybody. Yeah. Because the minute it happened, I thought, this is a bad, dangerous moment. So I went out and did stuff.

And I think that kind of might have helped Gary framing what he was thinking. When you say you went out and did stuff. On the telly and the radio. He's so brought his thoughts. On the radio. And on social media as well. But particularly on the telly and the radio and on social media as well but particularly on the telly and the radio um i've done it again today on the back of him of the bbc backing down so no and i thought i did

think it was i it's really funny this because i went to the same school as gary lenica in leicester in leicester yeah is that where you're from no i was was born in Yorkshire but when I was about 10 my dad, who was a vet had a really bad accident and he had to give up the practice and he got a job with the Ministry of Agriculture and we got moved to Leicester so we lived in Leicester for all my teenage years

and I went to City Boys School and three years below me was this kid that everybody thought was amazing it was actually an amazing cricketer as well as an amazing footballer um he's one of them ones isn't it yeah an all-rounder funny enough there was a kid at our school called carl jays j-a-y-e-s who was a goalkeeper for england school boys and he was like the one that everybody thought he's going to be the massive sort of footballer because gary gary was never like you know I didn't know him then I knew him I knew who

he was because you know he was always in the you know local papers carrying in again playing for you know this that and the other he was a very good sportsman obviously so that was my first experience of him and then uh obviously followed his career and stuff. And then didn't really get to know him again until years and years and years later. I actually upset him as well because I wrote an article during one of the World Cups. I can't remember when it was. And I'll be honest, I'm a bit of a... Because I support Scotland at football. I don't get into the whole, it's coming home.

You support Burnley. I support Burnley and Scotland, yeah. And they're English. Burnley are English, it's true. They're Burnley and Scotland yeah they're English Burnley are English it's true they're England yes yeah a lot of their players are not English but yeah yeah but I've always supported Scotland I've always been Scottish in my heart even though I've spent all my life in England because my parents so I wrote a piece about the BBC's World Cup coverage one year where I was just sick of the kind of anglo philia of it and everything

being through the england prism so i wrote this piece in the times and he was really pissed off about it um so i think i was a bit png for a while but then i can't remember oh and then the other connection was when his son george had leukemia i did a lot of work with leukemia research charity which is now called blood wise why were you doing so much work with them? I was doing that because my best friend died of leukaemia, and then his daughter died of leukaemia as well. Jeez. Yeah.

A few years after that, yeah. So when I did the marathon, for example, I did it for them. But the thing I love about Gary is there's something very, very authentic about him. Yeah, I think so. There's a real, there's an authenticity to him which i think is really strong and that's what i think people didn't reckon on when i think when he did that tweet and it went whoosh and everybody thought oh this is terrible i think the bbc thought

oh well the government's a bit pissed off the tour is a bit pissed off we'll sort of calm it down a bit and but he's got real values you know he really he doesn't he wouldn't say it if he didn't really really really feel it and i defend i went out and defended him because i thought this was about much much much more than gary lenica doing a tweet i thought this was about whether the bbc is going to cave in the face of this populist polarising crap that comes out of the Tories the whole time. And whether it's going to cave in the face of newspapers like the Mail and the Express and the Telegraph, which are just, you know, vile

when it comes to this kind of populist culture war stuff. And I think what's brilliant about what's happened today, we're meeting on the day that the BBC's kind of backed down and Gary's you know his first game is going to be Man City against Burnley at the weekend

that's quite brilliant oh yes that's what we were talking about awesome you're playing them in the FA Cup playing in the FA Cup

yeah I think we're going to have about 9,000 fans there or something crazy are you going to go yeah oh yeah in the away end

I'm going to try and get a song going about Gary oh yeah what would you do yeah well the obvious one is oh Gary Gary Gary oh no not like that we've got to make it I'm going to try and get a song going about Gary. Oh, yeah. What would you do? Yeah. Well, the obvious one is,

Oh, Gary, Gary, Gary, Gary, Gary, Gary. Oh, no, not like that. No, we've got to make it a little bit more. Well, the other one I thought of is, you know United fans used to sing about Owen Hargreaves? Yeah. Do you remember that one? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, Owen Hargreaves, you are the love of my life, Owen Hargreaves, I'll let you shag my wife, Owen Hargreaves, I want curly hair too. Right? And I thought we could do,

Oh Gary Lineker, you are the love of my wife, Gary Lineker. Next bit. And then you go, I hate, I hate Braverman too. Oh,

brilliant. That is really good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Should we get it going? Get it viral. I'd love to.

I, I actually, when I was a kid, I did get a Burnley song going once. Okay. How'd it go? It went, we had a play called late and james

remember late and james welsh international oh late and james oh late and james is wonderful is wonderful late james is wonderful full of boot full of clog full of guinness late and james is wonderful did you do that one yeah well you could put that could that gary fit in that one no what full of boot full of clog for the guinness But you could change. Full of morals. You could do full of morals, full of values, full of principles. Full of values and principles and... Morals. Morals. But I was glad when they reinstated him, he was able to tweet.

He said the last few days have been difficult, but not as difficult as people fleeing their country. Classy. He's got class. He's got class. And he's clever and he's astute. He is clever. Yeah.

Yeah. Same school, you see. You went to school and went... Big family. My family? Yeah. Two brothers and a sister. What was being eaten around the dinner table?

Oh, God, you know what? I think it... I mean, I'm not a massive foodie. I like good food. No, I've heard a few bits about you have you yeah i've got some intel on you what's the thing he most loves jesse should we get you a portion of something i hate that word why do you hate the word i don't know it's like polystyrene on me it's like moist i hate it i hate it portion i hate i hate people who go to my restaurant they say you

know the portions with this or the portions with that. So what would they say instead? There wasn't enough of it or, you know, the portion. What does it mean? Do you never use portion in like, take it away from like food terms? Is it only that you don't like it with food? I hate the word. But I hate the word because of the resonance with food.

And that's where the word is used. When else do you hear a portion? A portion of? I'll have a portion of food and that's where the word is used. When else do you eat a portion? A portion of? I'll have a portion of values and principles and Gary Lickerisms. It's a horrible word. I agree with you. I hate the word. And so we ate, what did we eat?

My mum was a good cook, but she didn't venture out much beyond what she knew. So like soups. I mean, my dad was very traditional. My dad was with the hebrides and it's like you know he would like nothing better than potatoes mints beans not beans what do you call it peas yeah yeah i hate beans as well by the way beans i hate baked beans baked beans no but something you hate even more than that is tomato ketchup. The thing, I don't just hate ketchup. You have a phobia. I have a phobia of ketchup.

I met somebody who has a phobia of cheese. You know the Danny Baker show when he was on Radio 5 on Saturday morning? You know the sausage sandwich challenge? Do you know about that? No, I don't. So, okay, it was one of the best. When I was driving up to Burnley, which I used to do a lot before i became an eco warrior and now i only get the train so when i was used to drive up i used to listen to danny baker's show on the way it was brilliant i loved danny baker's show it was

fantastic and the sausage sandwich thing is at the end and i ended up doing it as a guest okay and what you do is you have you have two people members of the public who are out there on the line and you're asked they're asked questions about the guest which only the guests could possibly know the answer to and they have to guess the answer so it might be like you know uh when jesse where was at school did she get uh was her hobby netball? Was it hockey? And they have to guess, right? So they always basically rigged it so that it was a draw. And then the decider was when Alistair Campbell has a sausage sandwich, does he have red sauce, brown sauce, or no sauce at all?

And then they have to guess, okay, whether you have red sauce, brown sauce, no sauce at all. So I said that I sauce no sauce at all so i said that i was no sauce at all and the reason for that is that i had this chronic hatred fear of being anywhere near tomato ketchup where did this come from well i don't i think i know where it came from i'll come on to that but what was really interesting was that loads of people got in touch with the program and with me to say, I thought I was the only one. Catch up anonymous. And it turns out there is a name for it. What is it?

Saltomophobia. Saltomophobia. What is saltom? Sauce. Okay. And in Australia, it's called Equus Mortis phobia. Oh, that sounds

a bit more dramatic. Equus Mortis is Latin for dead horse rhyming slang sauce. Oh, I like that. Eh? Oh, that is really good intel. So.

That is really good. And I think what it's about, I think it's to do with blood. I'm very, very squeamish. Oh, blood. Oh, blood. Yeah, I'm very squeamish oh yeah i think it's a bit of a kind of hard i know i'm really really squeamish about blood you know the first

in the first days of my courtship with grace's mum who mum's a massive fan of of whom my mum is a massive fan yeah sorry did i say the wrong we said whom mum's a massive fan of your wife yeah all right he's correcting me. I think you should have very high standards on this programme. Don't think they're caring about the grammar, but carry on. So we were trainee journalists together in Devon, and we were all taken to the Devon and Cornwall police headquarters in Plymouth, and we were given a tour and shown and blah-de-blah-de-blah.

And we were taken to the murder bit bit where they were investigating various murders and there were these dead body pictures all over the place and I just went fainted fainted yeah she didn't know I think she just thought what a wimp I fainted when she had an amniocentesis I had no idea so they put a sword in you they put a thing called a saber into your belly is this when you're pregnant yeah yeah so if you understand i'm having an amniocentesis i said what's that it's well it's the thing where they just check the baby's okay and blah blah blah do you want to come along i was yeah okay and i just i didn't know what i thought it would be so we go along with this thing the nurses come in and she gets this honestly it's like a

thin sword i would say and she puts in here and i just again i just keeled over and so if you're this line there with this with this massive needle while these nurses are trying to say attention see i know and then another one where rory our eldest he and i were meant to be going to a football match at weembley. He works in football. He does, yeah. Yeah, he does. He bets quite a lot.

So we were meant to be going, and he was going to Vietnam on a trip, so he had to go to the hospital to get some jabs. So I'm sitting at home thinking, where's Rory? We've got to go in a minute. And the phone goes, and it's, is that Mr. Campbell? Yeah. Are you Rory Campbell's father yes

I'm afraid he's fallen over and hit his head that's a terrible thing to hear we're not yet sure about the damage oh my god oh god

honestly it wasn't very well handled did you then faint I then ran is this a doctor thanking you I then ran to the hospital

they said he was in the blue zone bit you know the na na na na na na in there so I've run up there and as I'm walking

into the Royal Free a place where all our children were born where I've had a couple of operations you felt comfortable yeah right

however as I'm walking through I think right be calm do not faint do not faint do not faint do not faint I get in

Rory's lying on this bed, surrounded by doctors. He's got a drip on. And I just went. Oh, my God. You're a nightmare. You're real. So they put me in the bed next to him. Oh, my God.

And then the next thing, it was like, this was so ridiculous. So the guy said, apparently my pulse rate went so low that they got really scared. I was really proud of it. I think a low pulse rate is very important. God, you're an athlete. I remember Seb Coe once telling me a story about how when he was taken to hospital and they thought he was dead because his pulse was so low. And they were panicking.

Seb Coe's dying in a hospital, right? But it was just because he had a low pulse. Anyway, this was a Saturday. They got a heart specialist came in to see me and i said honestly please i'll be fine i always faint in hospitals it's pathetic but then and they kept me in overnight and and i was fine but it was like and and i was i was sort of moderately what's the word uh important back then and they were desperate for people they didn't i think they just thought god we don't really want him dying on our watch yeah so when they took me up to the ward this guy

the the doctor came along with a portrait he said i think we should come do you mind if we cover your face i said what like a bed i said we don't seem to be willing to answer this thing over me i don't care I really don't think I need to be here I'm honestly like no no no we're going to keep you in overnight

for observation so Fiona came up Rory's in one ward down there and they put me in this they put me

in what they called the Saudi prince room and who was in there me me me

is where all the rich people go and get their treatment. Fantastic. They decided I needed that treatment. So I'm very... And I think the ketchup thing is about blood. Oh, okay. So brine sauce you can't do either?

I don't mind brine sauce, but I don't... Can you do mustard? I love mustard. Okay, that's... Thank God. I love mustard. Yeah, but you're not allowed that in the Danny Baker Challenge mustard. Okay.

Who cooks at home? Do you cook? Fiona's a really good cook. I remember Grace saying that. Yeah, but you're not allowed that in the Danny Baker Challenge. Mustard. Okay. Who cooks at home? Do you cook? Fiona's a really good cook. I remember Grace saying that. Yeah, she did say that. I've cooked one meal in my life. What is it? What was it?

It was a tuna and potato souffle. Oh, that's interesting. Whose recipe was that? That's interesting. Delia. She said, feeling a bit vanity. Delia. 19...

It was the year I met Fiona. When was it? 1980, 81-ish. Did it work out well? It was the year I met Fiona. So... 1980, 81-ish. Did it work out well? It was all right. I mean, she had to help me a bit, but I kind of did it OK. It was all right. Why did you decide on a tuna potato?

I've no idea. You're not going to follow Ed Balls and go on that... No. ...the celebrity... No. ...cook thing? Can I ask you, was Rory Stewart a friend of yours before you decided to do the podcast? Not really, no.

Because he's not a natural someone that you'd naturally be friendly with. No. Because he's a Tory. Yeah. But he's a very... He's posh. But he's a nice Tory. But I have to say, that podcast...

It's fabulous. It's what you two sort of aspire to be isn't it you don't argue enough do you want us to argue more we argue too I will say I think you have opened the discussion of politics up to I mean I'm

engaged and of course I look at the news every day but there's something you are so engaging and it is so brilliant and i learned so much from it thank you and i said this to you before no but you know what what like even on the train coming over from gunnersbridge i've just been at the thing at gunnersbury and on the train coming up three people on the carriage coming over and um saying they were listening to it That's amazing, well you are kind of a big deal You've written this book

and I've started reading it Well you've written loads of books The one you want to plug, the one you've dragged me here to force me to talk about You've got proper copies But what I will say is that you know, the first half Depressing It's quite depressing What I will say is that, you know, the first half...

Depressing. ...is quite depressing. Yeah. And you warn people about it being depressing because you have solutions or suggestions in the second half about how to not feel disengaged with politics and the world and what's going on. And you talk about polarising, populist...

Post-truth. post-truth post-truth and surely this linica situation was kind of a perfect example of there being an outcome yeah that was hopeful or do you think it is the most hopeful so everyone should read the book but that was an example of what you're saying can happen if people decide to make something happen yes yeah you're absolutely right i'm glad you said that because i think it's so the the depressing bit at the start is about how we got ourselves into this terrible mess that we're in as a world our politics okay and we talk and it's it's not my this isn't an original thing the three p's came from this guy in venezuela a guy called moises naim that i write about a lot and what's his book

called his book is the revenge of power that you say is amazing it's amazing it's an incredible book and and and he says that we've been driven to this by these three p's which he calls populism polarization and post-truth so if you think about what happened with gary populism okay a football presenter who used to be a footballer says something about a policy that's just been unveiled that he doesn't like very much okay and the reason he doesn't like it is because that policy he didn't say this but why does that why does that policy offend so many people policy he didn't say this but why does that why does that policy offend so many people because it's populist and what populism is to me populism isn't about being popular populism is about trying to divide people between the kind of elite of which gary lindley would seem to be one

because he's a sort of bbc presenter who makes lots of money and the pure people who got you know is that when you're talking about us and them? Us and them. They, yeah. Us and them. And then polarisation is about trying to divide everybody and drive everything to the extremes, okay? And post-truth is basically, it's more than,

post-truth isn't just about lying, it's about changing the nature of a debate. It's like Russia. It's like Russia. To my mind, it's actually like Johnson. Johnson. Johnson's a gaslighter, he a liar trump is the same but putin yeah is absolutely in this post truth world so give you a classic example of how it happens so gary lenica says um in a tweet that

there is no huge influx more people go to other european countries than come here this is an immeasurably cruel policy of language used in the 30s in Germany it's all accurate all accurate right post-truth then says he's calling Suella Braverman a Nazi

yeah okay Lineker is suddenly in a Nazi row Tory Nazi row although David Baddiel got stuck in on that well his book yeah we've read that brilliant yeah absolutely brilliant but he was wrong on what on saying Gary Lineker I don't like him evoking he said did he say that yeah he said well I've been I've been attacked he said I agree with

Gary Lineker but I don't like the reference to 1930s Germany Nazis yeah I get that I get that but the reason the other reason why I was kind of triggered and provoked and went and did dozens of interviews and and wrote about it what have you is because in the book as you which you've read thank you for doing that I looked at the 30s in Germany and Italy and some of the some of the slogans and some of the some of the language that was used in the media debate and the and Italy and some of the slogans and some of the some of the language that was used in the media debate and the way and and I'm afraid you know, for example Drain the swamp right Trump drain the swamp. You know, he first said drain the swamp Mussolini. Yeah, right the Dershturmer The the Nats the kind of and there's another paper Volkischer Beobachter

Which you know swarms of jews well we've got swarms of refugees we're being invaded by the jews we're being invaded by the muslims you know all this stuff it's the same stuff but the jewish chronicle editor stephen pollard he has been whacking me on social media all week because he says i am comparing what's happening in this policy with our government to the holoca I'm not, nor was Gary Lineker. That's what I mean about exposed truth. But yeah, I didn't find it problematic. As a Jew, I didn't find it problematic.

But he's talking about 30s... 30s language in Germany in the 30s. And the big point, though, the big point is that the Holocaust wasn't the start of the... So people think, okay,ler the holocaust right but it's but it's the stuff that happened on the way it's parliament caving in it's the media caving in it's business people right growing it's the far right growing exactly so i and do i look at if i

look at people like farage braverman these people on a lot of these people on the kind of right wing these new right wing tv stations you know where does it stop i can imagine them you know once once you've passed the threshold of defending something utterly indefensible where does it go you know i just cannot believe what's happening but listen when you were with bjorn from abba yeah which i listened to yesterday you don't want to talk about politics do you no i don't mind about politics but you told him what we're having for dinner really early on yes we usually do talk about the food would you like to know what you're eating tonight alistair mum would you like to you've done the food i've done a slow roast lamb shoulder of lamb i'm vegetarian no you're not

because we asked in advance no at home fiona's a vegetarian yeah and fiona cooks all right so slow roast lamb yeah and i've done so we don't get starter? no can't manage starter I've done I've got a pit I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done

I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done

I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done

I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done

I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done

I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done

I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done

I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done

I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done

I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done

I've done I've done I've done I've done I've done I think he hates everything. What, with fennel? Yeah. And then broccoli with an anchovy dressing. Oh, I haven't done the anchovy dressing. No, you better get on with it, darling. Who's your favourite besides Zabba? Oh, no, Zabba's not my favourite. Oh, he's not your favourite.

You wrote down, was it Jacques... Jacques Brel. That's who you wrote down. Oh, Jacques Brel. He's my favourite musician. He's fantastic. Well, I'm glad you know about him. Not enough British people do.

You wrote it in my phone and you said, Jacques Brel, that's who you should be listening to. Did I? Yeah. When we first met? Yeah. And have you listened? You didn't do it at all? I remembered.

I need to. I'm going to. Jesse, I think Scott Walker. I'm going to. Scott Walker did his songs. Yeah, he did his songs. Okay. Who else?

I listen to Elvis a lot. So would these be on your dinner party playlist? Fiona and I are not really into dinner parties. Oh, really? No, we're quite antisocial. We love each other's company. But you're actually such great fun. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you. I thought, if you don't mind me saying, I thought you were going to be a bit more miserable. Oh. Is that a bit rude? Yeah. I'm probably quite up today because of the Gary trial.

Yeah, me too. I can be a bit down and doer. Are you very close to both your children? Three. Oh, you've got three. I'm sorry, I only know about Grace and the footballs. No, we've got three kids. Yeah, I'm very close to all three.

We've got both of us, both Fiona and I, we've got very, very good,iona and i've got very very good close relationships all our kids good well i'm i'm kind of worried really because you're not a big foodie i like good food is it fuel or enjoyment food because you do all this exercise no but it's both i like i like eating nice food, but I'm not... I can't stand the pretentiousness that goes with a lot of foodism. You know, Fiona and I were in France a while back. We were staying in this really quite nice hotel and we decided to have dinner in the restaurant

and it was their gastronomic even. It was like this... It was utterly absurd. We had about 12 waiters just to our table coming around with these sort of, you know, big silver things on top of the plate. And that foam, you know that foam you get? Oh, I love it.

And that espumé. I can't stand that stuff. So I don't like pretentiousness in food. But you don't mind eating meat tonight? No. Okay. I probably don't eat much meat because Fiona doesn't cook meat. She does cook fish for me if I want it, but I don't mind eating meat tonight? No. Okay. I probably, I don't eat much meat because Fiona doesn't cook meat. She does cook fish for me if I want it, but I don't, you know, I quite like not eating meat.

Which is your best fish? Probably sea bass. Yeah, I like sea bass. I like a bit of sea bass. I love halibut. I love herring. Herring? I love rolled herring.

But the best herring I ever tasted was in Norway. Sometimes, don't you think with food though, you sort of if you have a really good experience with with food you think oh yeah so i i had this um this it was it wasn't even a lunch it was like a sort of snack thing uh in oslo and i just thought this is fantastic so whenever i eat herring now i always think of norway it's like fish soup when i fish soup i would put there is my right i was kind of hoping that was what would happen tonight i thought you might research that and discover that's oh my god jesse are you hearing what he's saying yeah he said i should have researched it i'm not a journalist well she's researching how does she

know about ketchup i don't know her because she found grace so when i was a student i had a year abroad in nice yeah and look truth be told my mum was she was a good cook at what she cooked yeah but we didn't i didn't know much there wasn't a big range no yeah okay and so i'm age 20 i get to nice and i go to this restaurant maybe if fact, it wasn't even a restaurant, it was a cafe. And I'm looking at the menu and it says fish soup. And I thought, well, that's fish soup. You know, I thought soup was just like vegetables and potatoes and maybe a bit of Scotch broth or something, right? So I said, what's the fish soup?

And the guy said, oh, it's this. Oh, it's delicious. So I ordered this fish soup and it was one of the best things I've ever eaten in my life. So now if there is fish soup on the menu in any restaurant I go to, I will have it. I need to know. So we haven't really talked that much about fish. Actually, what I'd like you to do is,

you didn't actually finish why the Gary Lineker thing was so brilliant you didn't get to the outcome that was a long time ago so populism, polarisation, post-truth there's elements of that in the way the story developed but what I love about it is that

essentially people power has forced them to back down so people for whatever reason Grace did a show at the Alipali the other night yeah that's amazing yeah but what was really interesting was that it was it was on the Sunday when this thing was kind of in a little bit in limbo but it didn't match the day no sorry it was on Saturday huh so people were sort of, should we get back to watch this truncated match of the day? But virtually everybody was coming up to me saying, you know, this BBC thing, this Lineker thing.

And sometimes it takes these situations to highlight a bigger point. And so what I was saying to them was, OK, right, you're angry about this. What about being angry about other stuff and doing something about it we did bernie sanders on the podcast this week and honestly it was absolutely brilliant the fire still burning in his belly i absolutely love it and it's obviously going to be like that till he dies you know he will be telling people you've got every right to be angry about this and this and this but you've got to do something about it so in the book you talk you suggest about how you can do things right so it is for people that are feeling slightly disillusioned with well everything well it's also is no it's also for people who are feeling

that they can get engaged want to get engaged so a lot of people for example there's a bit where i talk about you know how to build a campaign how campaign, how to communicate, how to strategise, how to do public speaking. You know, just giving people very, very simple ideas that, you know, won't be relevant to everybody, but might be relevant to some of them. Or, you know, about how you build resilience, how you build confidence. Just help yourselves. Oh, wow, look at that. That smells really nice. Does it?

That's great mum it does yeah so the juice dried up that's why I put a bunch of juice on that oh yeah oh yeah oh well done because you haven't eaten meat for a while though

so that's great you're an easy date so these kind of wrinkledy ones are um fur potatoes which I don't know

but they are codded and send enough they were supposed to send two lots so I did some ordinary do you want some salt

my slight worry with this is my personal trainer I have to put because he listens to stuff that I do but I've got to

put him off the case here because he doesn't like me eating potatoes oh come on you've got to live did you swim today I did

there you go you've got to have a bit of a car so this is what this is celeriac no this is fennel i mean i meant fennel fennel with um saffron it's been braised in saffron and um with just feta and a bit of harissa at the bottom did you cook it yeah it's really easy so what did you how do you divide up who does what? Well, usually my mum does way more than me. But I can cook and I've had a bit of a busy day, so I came over and I just did the fennel when I came over. So you don't really cook, but your wonderful wife does cook.

Do you have any favourite spots that you go out and eat at locally? This is more great intelligence. i can't confirm nor deny so it's quite interesting because so we live in gospel oak which is nw3 right in the corner of hampshire's east right and i don't think our area is that well served. So where we go most, probably... Well, Kentish Town's just down. It's not bad, yeah, but where we go most is a place called Mimo la Bufala in South End Green. And it's an Italian guy who is a former motor racer who gave up because he had an accident. Oh, shame.

You always need to know the story, don't you? Yeah. It's the journalistic blood of you. He need to know the story, don't you? Yeah. It's the journalistic blood in you. He got to know the story. And it's currently being managed by his lovely daughter. The food's good? The food is really good. It's a classic, quite traditional Italian,

but with lots of other stuff going on as well. And he's a massive character. He's a massive character. There's another one we go to locally called Revelle's, which is quite old fashioned and Grace thinks I like it because it's the nearest to the house. It's like a hundred yard walk. I know that one.

It's not like you're a lazy person, but it's convenient. No, and Michael Palin's a regular there. One of my favourite foods, again bad research, otherwise after the fish soup this wouldn't be on the plate now. I absolutely love red cabbage and they do a fantastic red cabbage. So that's, and where else would we go? We go to, there's a place called Hazara in India we go to. But yeah if we're sort of in the area, it'd be those two mainly. So if you were going to have your last supper, starter, main, pud, drink of choice.

So we're about to die. Potentially, you choose your ending. It can either be death or it can be that you're going to a desert island where you're not going to have any of your favourite things for a very long time. Jessie, I really don't want death. I'm not going to let him choose. I think it would be fish soup. Yeah, for the starter.

Yeah. Because you go to France every year, don't you? We've got a house in France. Oh, where? Whereabouts? About an hour from Avignon. And you'd have it from this particular place that you had the best soup that we talked about? Yeah, in Nice.

So where are we going for the moment? And by the way, I don't want an amuse-bouche. No foam. I fucking hate that. If you order a food, you go into a restaurant, you order a food, right, and you order two things, I don't want them bringing stuff I didn't order to tell me it's going to amuse my mouth.

Oh, I feel special. Do you? Yeah. Well, if I'm going to amuse my mouth, I'll tell something, a funny story. Main. Is that red cabbage going to feature? Red cabbage would be on the plate.

But can you have red cabbage with fish? Totally. Not supposed to. No? But we can. No judging. I wanted tomato salad as well. So you eat tomatoes, just not the... not the i love tomatoes yeah just the ketchup but it's when they've been pulverized but can

you have tomato sauce then like could you have a tomatoes i'm not going to say it because i'm worried i couldn't have no i can't drink tomato juice no it's got to be a tomato but you could have tomato pasta chopped up into pasta yeah yeah yeah pulped going too far okay let's not talk about it um so you'd have a tomato salad on the side yeah red cabbage on the plate yeah yeah sea bass sea bass it is delicious does Fiona eat fish? no she does this amazing sort of risotto thing which one?

I don't know asparagus? I don't really do that thing I don't even care what it is as long as it tastes good she does an amazing thing with mushrooms and potatoes and she's a very very good vegetarian cook yeah but i don't feel i need to know everything that's in there or how it happened does she cook every night or is she busy i feel terrible she cooks

every night she cooks a lot but she enjoys it that's what you tell yourself did you love being director of comms for the prime minister did I love it your little grace talks about well that was her first she told us that she said that she spent you spent more time with Tony

than you did with her and she remembers Tony winning the election and she stood there in either your arms or someone's arms with her sippy cup. Watching Tony Blair. And he was a big part of her early life. Yeah. But did you love it? Do you want to do it again? Would you advise Starmer?

To do what? Would you be like... Would to go and work for him yeah i don't think so and i don't think i think is there a pull if you've got a pull to bring you back or do you feel satisfied now that you've got this brilliantly successful podcast you get to discuss politics all the time it's really successful you can write your book like do you feel like you need to get back into... No, I don't. The party?

I don't. Are you a member of the Labour Party? No, I got kicked out. Why? Because I voted Lib Dem in the European elections. Okay. I voted Lib Dem when we went off to the Iraq war. All right, okay.

Fair enough. Yeah. I wasn't going to ask you about that. That's all right. I'm going to keep quiet. that I'm going to keep quiet You don't need to keep quiet We're actually recording tomorrow We're doing a podcast where we're just going to talk about Iraq and nothing else

Do you want to practice now then? No I'm fine Well it was the one thing that I just Absolutely disagreed about And I couldn't vote Labour because of that I regretted it and felt I brought everything down, of course. Well, no, because we did win after the election.

We did win after that. But I... What was your question before? That's a really good question, which we've moved on. Are you satisfied? No. But I wasn't ever happy. Weren't you?

Not really, no. Why? Because it was so stressful. and because it was just tough. Did you feel like you were in too deep at points? I don't know if it was in too deep, but I just, I do feel that, I mean, I know Grace makes a joke of it. Yeah. But you, yeah, you did sacrifice a lot. No, I think, well, it's not a sacrifice, it's a choice that you make.

sacrifice a lot no i think well it's not a sacrifice it's a choice that you make and and i do think that although i you know we are very close to our kids i think we i think people at the sort of jobs that i was doing and that lots of other people do we kid ourselves that you can do those jobs and be totally committed to your family you totally can you know we kid ourselves um and you know so like we've got one grace gets really bad anxiety we've got a son who's a you know recovering alcoholic um it's like that might have happened anyway absolutely possible but you wonder you do you wonder whether you whether you know um so i well how i often think of it it it's really interesting. When I published my diaries for the first time, the first volume, who the hell was it?

I can't remember who it was, but I was doing an interview on television and somebody said, I get the feeling you weren't very happy a lot of the time. Who was it? Was it Anne Robinson? And I said, well, I probably wasn't very happy. And I now realise I was depressed a lot of the time. But I'm very happy that I did it.

I would definitely do it again. Do you have any regrets? About what I did? No, not really, no. We haven't finished the last supper. So I've done... The main, you were having bits and bobs. Well, I'm having fish.

I'm probably having fish on its own on the plate. And I'll have the red cabbage there, tomato salad there. Yeah. A meze. What else do I want? That'll do me. That'll do me. Yeah?

Yeah. Any like calm? Beetroot. Beetroot. Love beetroot. How do you like beetroot? Cold. Pickled?

No. Nice and plain. Raw? No, not raw. Okay. Yeah yeah lots of olive oil. That'd be nice. Lemon juice or vinegar like a little vinegar. Is that what you put in beetroot? I would well I like them picked yeah a little sherry vinegar. Oh wow here we go. That looks lovely mum. And then for poudre what would be your poudUD? I once had a perfect chocolate mousse. Once? Yeah. Where were you?

In France. Same year I was there with the fish soup. It was a good year for food. No, I think it was because I was discovering stuff I didn't know existed. I remember I was teaching this school, and I forget it, the very, very first day, there was a canteen and all the teachers had these, quitting to eat, and they brought this there was a canteen and all the teachers had these, quitting to eat.

And they brought this drink around and they poured it into the glass. And I thought, I can't drink that. It's lunchtime. I thought it was alcohol. And it was apple juice. I didn't know apple juice existed. Wow. And I tasted it.

I thought, God, this is incredible. So I've loved apple juice ever since. I love apple juice. And the chocolate mousse was the same thing. It was like, I probably didn't know that chocolate mousse existed but i think i'm going to go for yeah when i go to burnley home games when we're playing away i tend to go in the away end or i do the commentary with the club amazing for the club right when i go to home games i quite often go in the director's box

and I go in the chairman's lounge and have lunch. Do you love it? I don't love it. How's the food? The food is good. Really? The food is good, yeah. I think we've got one of the best.

In fact, Delia, when Norwich played there last year... She said it was good. She said it was good. Ooh. Did you go up to Delia and ask her what she thought of the food? Or did she put it on Twitter? No, Delia's an old friend of ours, so I was eating with Delia and ask her what she thought of the food? Or did she put it on Twitter? No, Delia's an old friend of ours So I was eating with Delia

And she said Don't forget, Delia's background is mirror journalism Oh So Delia's a really good friend of ours And I love Delia But anyway, when I go there Because you're about to force me to eat a pudding, right? Yeah

I don't think I'm taking much force No, you are, you're forcing me You've just chosen about ten different puddings You're forcing me My personal trainer, Keir Not Keir Starmer Yeah Right, my personal trainer, Keir

He makes me send him What I eat every day Why? Is that because It's a disciplined thing Yeah And he hates me eating puddings But he he allows me. He calls it the cheap meal. Yeah. And he allows me to have the pudding at Burnley.

And what is it? Sticky toffee pudding with custard. Oh, I... You can get that... Oh, what? In the director's box? Mmm. Is it just delicious? It's unbelievable. But is that because you haven't... It's your cheap meal as well?

No, it's unbelievable. I could eat it all day long.'s your cheat meal as well no it's unbelievable I could eat it all day long oh this is good mum I could eat it I could eat it all day long what would you like from Ivy's cream

definitely definitely should we take a picture for Keir yeah do you want me to get the the thingy

hold on no it's fine this way you can manage no so so that is I think that would be yeah sticky toffee pudding

or bread and butter pudding, maybe. My mum used to make a fantastic trifle. I mean, beyond any trifle I've ever eaten. I love a mum trifle, yeah. The other thing, my mum made the best poached eggs that have ever been made, ever. Well, how did she make them? I don't know. Did she put vinegar in?

I don't know what she did. I put vinegar in. I don't know what she did. I don't know what she did. But she made the best't know what she did I don't know what she did but she made the best poached eggs in history is that your order in the morning? I eat porridge in the morning

oh he's Scottish darling well no the real Scottish thing my dad was from the Hebrides and when we went there so they ate like lots of potatoes lots of meat

and what have you but they had this thing called carrageen which is like a sort of it It's made out of seaweed. Seaweed? Yeah. And it's like... It's hard to describe really. It's kind of... Imagine sort of flan, semolina porridge all sort of as one. Not very tasty. Flan, semolina, seaweed, porridge?

Kind of, yeah. Sort of a bit of a mix really, yeah. Is it nice? It required a bit of perseverance. Okay, perseverance. To get through it. But, no, so, you know, but I've always had a sweet tooth, which is really nice. Is it nice? Really nice.

Yum. So, do you think you've got good table manners? Do you think it matters? I think I'm quite good, yeah. Table manners, what do you mean? Well, it's to be interpreted. How do you interpret a good table manners? Yeah, I could be.

If I was at a state banquet, I could behave. Okay. I'd know that that was the fifth spoon out there was the start. Yeah. You say you're not much of a, you don't have dinner parties and things, but if you were to have a dinner party who would you like to invite dead or alive? Oh dead or alive? You could have Jacques Brel there.

I'd definitely have him. Would you? Princess Diana. Would you? Why? Did you meet her? Mm-hmm. Was she lovely? Was she amazing?

Unbelievable. When um so I was not a royalist, I'm not a royalist, I'm not a monarchist. pan roeddwn i ddim yn breninol, dwi ddim yn breninol, dwi ddim yn monachus ac felly pan oeddwn i'n gwyddonydd roeddwn i'n ysgrifennu amdanyn nhw bob amser, wyddoch chi, cael eu llwyddo, bladu, bladu, bladu ac roeddent yn ysgrifennu rhai pethau eithaf anodd am Diana hefyd. Yn unrhyw fath, ym mis nesaf, d had the local elections one night, and Tony was invited through some sort of posh establishment dude with Cherie to go and have dinner with Diana at a place in Chelsea. Why?

Just, you know, I don't know if she wanted to see him or I don't know. So anyway, it was local elections night. So Terry, Tony's driver, picks me up about nine o'clock. We've got to be at Walworth Road,

our old headquarters at ten for when the exit polls and all that come out. So we arrive at this posh Belgravia, Chelsea, wherever it was,

house. I ring on the bell and I say some flunky answers that comes on the speakerphone and I said would you tell mr blair that his car's here and we've got to go so i don't know so i'll go back in the car sit in the car wait for tony and sheree and you're quite hoping that you get invited in not really couldn't

care right okay yeah yeah anti-royal yeah yeah not just anti-royal but wanted to get on and you know big night yeah yeah next thing tap on the window look out the window

there's Tony's down there he says open the door open the door he said somebody wants to see you Diana do you think

she found something mum he does do you know do you know what is her first what her first words

to him what what's Alastair Campbell really like I'd love to meet him her first her first words to him

yeah he was really pissed off was he so pissed off and then we had these so we're standing there in the middle of the road with cars whizzing by

just chatting hold on Diana's out out front in the street. She's come out, she put her shoes on, come outside. I don't know if she didn't have her shoes on already. Okay, no, I don't know, I'm trying to embellish the story. And you're just chatting outside the car. Yeah. What did you say to each other? Tony's standing there. Feeling left out. I'm meant to be the main guy, what's on here Cherie's like I then said to her Oh she said God wouldn't this be a great picture She fancied you I'm telling you Jessie That's what Fiona said She said

God this would be a great picture And then I said Listen why don't you come down to Walworth Road That would be a great picture Anyway Then we had these dinners. Who, you and Diana? Me, Fiona. Yeah.

Tony and Cherie. And Diana's lawyer, a woman called Maggie Ray. Her divorce lawyer. Great woman. I know Maggie Ray. Do you? She's wonderful.

And her husband, Alan. Yeah. So we go for the first, this one, and I said in my diary Tony couldn't decide whether he was a statesman or a flirt I had no such trouble anyway at one point she said she said um I hear you drink a lot of tea how does she know I do drink tea yes and you were like you did your research and that really like turned you on no I said I said I do drink a cup of tea yes and you were like you did your research and that really like turned you on no i said i said i do drink a cup of tea and she said i'd love to make you a cup of tea

oh my god did she make no stop did she make you a cup of tea she made me a cup was it a good cup in the kitchen it was perfect cup of tea and builder's tea and alan maggie's husband alan howes he said he's from blackburn i can't believe working class lad from Blackburn and Princess of Wales is in my kitchen making a cup of tea. Anyway, it was fabulous. And then the next time, we had another one there. Same crowd. And as you know, because I've asked you to remove the cat from the premises, I've got a bit of a thing about cats because they make me very wheezy.

So we arrive there. She's already there. She's sitting in the corner in this. And it was just in this little house in Hackney where Maggie and Alan live. And she's sitting there and she's got a cat on her lap. Maggie and Alan's cat. Oh, nightmare. And I said, oh, what a lovely cat.

Why did you say that? I don't know. And she said, do you like cats? I said, I love cats. Oh, my God. And she said, oh, can you take this? Because I don't like them. And then you felt.

And I said, oh, fuck off. And I said, I'm really sorry I lied to you. Did you say it? Yeah. I can't touch cats. You had to go now. Yeah. What did you say? She just threw it on the floor

you're a big flirt Alistair I'm terrible he's a terrible flirt Jessie I'm really glad that it bit you in the arse though that's brilliant

would you sing karaoke I mean you like music yeah but I'm not a good singer or you could play your bagpipes which would be your bagpipe song that you'd play.

What, only one tune? Yeah, not Mull of Kintyres or Amazing Grace. No. No. Even though your daughter's called Grace. My daughter is Amazing Grace, no. Yeah. I actually write bagpipe tunes.

Do you? Yeah, so I'd probably play my own stuff. Before we round up, because I fear that you potentially are going to have an asthma attack if you're in the house with a cat for that much longer. Everyone's going to pre-order after this fascinating chat. I hope so. What can I do? Why politics has gone so wrong and how you can help fix it.

Yeah, which you can. Yeah. Which all of us can. Like we fixed Gary. Yeah. What's the next step for the Gary story? But what can I do now? Yeah.

Or do you think that will swell a kind of... I don't know. I mean, I do now, is there? Yeah. Or do you think that will swell a kind of... I don't know. I mean, I do think it's interesting that... Look, I started writing the book before we did this podcast. I've been working on it for a bit. But I do think that you said earlier that you felt it had politically engaged you. And I meet so many people who say they don't actually

watch the news, they don't read newspapers, but they really like our podcast. Now, I think it's because we're tapping into something. And I they really like our podcast now i think it's because we're we're tapping into something and i hope the book does the same that is basically funny bernie sanders talked about this on the podcast is that the right don't want us to be active they want you to give up they want kids not to vote they want kids to say they're all the same there's no point and i talk in the book about cynicism, where, you know, these three things, where you say nothing ever changes, they're all the same, and no one person can make a difference.

One of my favourite chapters in the book is about people, some of whom we've heard of, like Greta, but a lot of whom people have never heard of, who've all made a difference. Done stuff, just decided that they're going to make change, and they've done done it and i see the other thing that i think has happened is that i think too many young people actually too many people in my generation as well basically think that if you say lots of angry things on twitter you're an activist right what's something like greta shows is that activism is actually doing yeah act you have to act you have to do stuff and you know Twitter's fine and you know signing petitions is fine and all that but ultimately you've got to have big campaign goals and really really really work at it and fight at

it and do you know the the short answer to the question but what can i do is you've got to do what you can do a lot of people can't do stuff if you if you're like a civil servant you're beholden to the government of the day you can't do stuff right but if you're and if you if you're a teacher with kids and you've got you know you're trying to make a living and you're trying to hold the thing together so we've all got limitations but you do what you can do and my point is that what i think this lot do people like johnson they they there's a sort of it's they deliberately try and make people cynical they want you to think they're all the same why did the male for example when the the talk when johnson was having excuse me when johnson was having all the parties in number 10 why did the male get so obsessed about kia starmer having a bottle of beer in a picture in durham answer because they want the public to think yeah johnson may be a lying scumbag but he's just as bad they're all as bad

as each other and that that's polarizing yeah it's polarizing but it's also deliberately and then you throw in the things like the voter ID stuff, you know, where I can use my Oyster card to show who I am to vote, but somebody who's 18 can't. Why? Because somebody my age is more likely to vote Tory than somebody who's 18. Things like, you know, curbing the rights protest, making it hard of a trade union power.

We've got the most restrictive trade union laws anywhere in europe and they're bringing in more you know it's all deliberate trying to curb people's sense of empowerment and feeling they can make a difference they want us to think we can't make a difference alice camber we could keep on chatting yeah forever until i die of asthma are you getting wheezy do you want me to go and get an antihistamine? No. No, are you sure? No. Anyway, listen, the food was fantastic. Thank you.

Yeah. I hope it was good. I mean, you know, for a meal without a starter, that was really good. Well, you didn't have a starter. You made up for it with your three portions of tartar town. No care. I had three little spoonfuls just to make them happen. No judgment.

Alistair Campbell on Table Manners, thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Darling, I wish you'd move in with me, to be perfectly frank. You a bit in love, Mum? Yeah yeah i could have talked to him forever he wasn't abrasive at all which i thought he might have been because i don't think he suffers fools i mean you told him that you thought he was going to be miserable yeah he wasn't yeah oh do you think that was wrong well i mean he was honest yeah it was on it he wasn't miserable he was a breath of fresh air he was interesting funny he seems to have had dinner with everybody in the whole wide world

including story for princess diana and i just think he was fascinating and i hope what he says in his book's going to really work thank you so much to alistair campbell for coming out you should go and pre-order the book but what can i do and or listen to his podcast the rest is politics i vouch for it it's one of the only podcasts that i listen to it's fantastic it's fantastic it's really good it's engaging it draws you in and it makes politics very interesting for people who are losing faith the book is out on the 11th of may and pre-order it now so you don't need to think about it again um thank you alistair for being such a good sport for being so interesting for having no wonder he had volumes of diaries his diary entries must be have been

wild and interesting and he does tell a story very very well i'm really appreciative of grace his daughter giving me that intel on the ketchup he did like a tart a portion of tart oh yeah i wonder a portion or two of tart um anyway thank you that did work didn't it lovely gorge um we'll see you next week thanks so much for listening Bye.