Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S16 Ep 15: James O'Brien

Episode Date: January 24, 2024

We’ve got radio supremo James O’Brien joining us this week, and mum hasn’t been this excited since she met Marcus Rashford last year. Despite the special occasion, mum had a corker of a culinary disaster which she salvaged in one of the best ways possible - plus we didn’t tell James on the day, and he’s only just finding out now, sorry James! Over dinner, James told us all the best stories, including how he signed up for boarding school purely to join their school play, his self confessed terrible job as a showbiz correspondent, interviewing Ian Brown the day after he was dumped, and we discovered he is a fellow Graecophile too, all the best people are! James’ best-seller book ‘How They Broke Britain’ is available to purchase now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware. I'm here with Lenny and she's got a little story for you guys about mistakes in the kitchen. Bit of a culinary disaster, Jess. And I don't blame myself. What happened? I followed a recipe from The Guardian, the perfect lamb tagine. And when I looked it up on my index, I had to look up P rather than L because it was perfect. What are you talking about? I save on my index. I had to look up P rather than L because it was perfect. What are you talking about? I save all my recipes. Oh, instead of lamb tagine. Instead of lamb tagine.

Your index. Perfect. Did you have a spreadsheet? No, it's in my computer. I save all my recipes. So I've got every recipe. There's a book in there somewhere. So it said, I should have realised, it said 600 grams of meat and then 200 grams of dates.

My good measure of dates. Yes. Very expensive. Individually like little pack. And then 100 grams of apricots. Didn't mention salt. It was two onions. Where's the acid in that?

No acid. There was no tomato ketchup. No lemon. No orange. There was no tomato ketchup. No lemon. No orange. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Did you not think, hmm. I didn't. Did you not think, what would Samin Nosrat do?

No. I didn't think that because it said perfect. And it was in The Guardian. So I thought, no, this is going to be perfect. I thought, I felt quite smug. So I did it, cooked cooked it spent ages doing it peeled or you know did all the dates took the stones out did it all exactly as they said well it was like eating something that had sugar in it so i tried i fished all the dates out yeah

but haven't they mushed up by this point they had a bit but I tried to find them and then I put I thought I'll put some vinegar in I'll put some tomato pure olives in it no I didn't at that stage I wasn't sure about adding olives but I put some tomato ketchup some vinegar I put salt in which it hadn't had on the recipe which I think was odd they've like missed I think they missed out like three ingredients right so then I did all that and then it was still not right so I thought what shall I do I just didn't I couldn't do another one yeah so I went to cook I bought one lamb tagine they are very good for four yeah and then I thought what i'll do is i took out all the lamb from mine and the chickpeas and added it to the lamb tagine i've got and it tastes lovely you know

what mum what that's problem solving i respect you i respect your honesty and i think a lot of listeners i wasn't going to be honest i whispered to Tully and then big ears flapped and said, what's happened? I wasn't going to tell you. Actually, let's put this to the listeners. How many of you... I've never cheated before, have I? I don't think this is a cheat.

I think this is a solution. A solution. How many listeners have served up cook meals and claimed it as their own? I think everybody does, don't you? Please write to hello at tablemannerspodcast.com. I did throw away the casing outside. But we're not going to tell James because he'll find out about it on the podcast.

Yeah. But when he says it's really delicious, Lenny, what are you going to expect? I'm going to smile and say thank you. Have you gone for a less risky pud? You know how MasterChef, Jess, you make or break yourself with a chocolate fondant? Thought, well, I'm not going to say the words because it begins with S.

I thought, it, I'm going to have a go. So this could be the redemption of the... It might be the redemption or it might be the tin lid on the hat or whatever might be the end of everything whatever happens it will be you're on fire tonight we'll be all right darling have you got some cream i've got cream and ice cream so you're in your element darling right anyway we have somebody that mum is very excited about maybe you are just too excited about this guest that you read the recipe wrong. I was trying to do... No, I'm going to show you the recipe.

I was... I've been so excited because I've been reading his book. I just think he writes so well. It's so easy to read. His book that is out now and it repeatedly gets back into the Sunday Times bestsellers is called How They Broke Britain. He has the biggest commercial talk show.

1.4 million a week. He manages to get the point across whilst also ask the hard questions whilst also sound like he's talking on behalf of the whole nation. We've got James O'Brien coming on the podcast. This is going to be Lenny's app. It's my favourite. You know Lenny's going to put on the Radio 4 voice. She's going to get him good. So I'm just going to let youny's out. It's my favourite. You know Lenny's going to put on the Radio 4 voice. She's going to get him good. So I'm just going to let you sit back and enjoy the ride as I will. James O'Brien coming up on Table Manners.

James O'Brien, cheers. Oh, yamas. Drinking a Greek wine. Yeah, yamas. Yamas. Drinking a Greek wine. Yeah, let's see if it's any good. Perky. We can have something else. It probably needs opening, actually.

How are you? Very well, thank you for having me. Thank you for coming. Who's going to interview who today? I'm off duty. I'm here to be probed. Are you good at being probed? I love it, actually. You don't know I'm off duty. I'm here to be probed. Are you good at being probed?

I love it, actually. You don't know how excited I am. Wow, that's so kind of you. Thank you. I know you've got form with lefties, haven't you? A lefty cannot cross the threshold without being love-bombed by you. Kiss that. I know, I know. And Alistair and Ed.

Alistair and Ed, yeah. Well, they're professional. Yeah, Ed was kind of the great surprise. Yes. He's so charming. Yes, he is. So attractive as a human being. And you had no, very little inkling of that

when he was in the Leader of the Opposition. James, which Tory would you suggest that we have on? I did Dominic Grieve quite recently. Yeah, he's lovely, but he's the normal proper Tory. Yeah, that's what I mean when they're outside Parliament. The current crop, I don't know, to be honest. There's clearly some who are biting their tongue constantly and sitting on their hands,

but I think there comes a point where you're biting your tongue so hard that it ceases to be... You can't use your tongue. You can't use your tongue. Exactly that. So I don't know. What's happened with the vote?

Tonight, I don't know. I was walking around Clapham. I presume the amendments on the Rwanda bill. All the very right-wing Tories don't think it goes far enough. It's not nasty enough. You've got a few in the middle saying it's too nasty.

30p Lee. 30p Lee, Lee Anderson. Is Jonathan Houlis following him? You've gone for the Greek, because we're having Greek wine. You've gone for the Greek pronunciation of Jonathan Gullis Jonathan Houlis following him Houlis you've gone for the Greek because we're having Greek wine you've gone for the Greek pronunciation of Jonathan Gullis

Houlis Malaka Malaka he is a Malaka do you go to Greece a lot then you've got swear words under your belt

I speak a bit of Greek I love Greece how I had a Greek girlfriend at university and long after breaking up with her I was still in love

with Greece the language of love yes we go every year actually what's the most romantic thing to say in Greek well you can say and long after breaking up with her I was still in love with Greece. The language of love. Yes, we go every year actually. What's the most romantic thing to say in Greek? Well, you can say I love you, but I don't. Sagapopolis.

Agapimo. Agapimo. In fact, in the book, in the acknowledgements, there's two things that obviously... You've not put the old girlfriend in the book. No, don't be ridiculous. There's two things that no one've not put the old girlfriend in the book no don't be ridiculous the um there's two things that you don't no one else will understand i say thank you to the guy that ran the um the place we go to in cardamilli at the bottom of the peloponnese every year because that because i got to cardamilli everyone says that's gorgeous i really recommend i've got to

stop recommending it otherwise you know what i we've done the same. Do you know what I mean? Otherwise, I'm never going to get in there. That's where Beth and Earth's been, yeah. So I say thank you to Stavros and all the crew at Ellie's. And then I list 15 men, all of whom I describe as having brought me great joy. And even my wife said, who are these? And I said, that is the Kid and Mr. Harry's promotion-winning squad. Well, that's quite nice. So it's all in there. I love that.

All my vices and joys are covered in the acknowledgments so i mean food wise do you do you do you can you recommend a greek for us a greek restaurant in london yeah i mean bayswater's pretty good there's a couple of nice places in bayswater used to be the one that was a major in a micro macro that's right what was it called i can't remember and it was at the back down a little muse place. Yes, that place. I could never find it. No, you can't find it. It was like, it's a short story. It's around the back and it's a little muse and it was delicious.

And then I could never find it again. Someone took me there. Yes, someone took me there and I could never find it afterwards. You two are going to get on with it. Is that right? Very well. So we're Greekophiles. We're all Greekophiles.

What's your first order when you get to your place? Kolo kifo keftedes. Oh, keftedes? Kolo kifo keftedes. Kolo kifo? They're the courgette ball, the courgette fritters. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God.

Do you get garlic sauce with it or not? Yeah, the tzatziki. Or is it sku, sku, sku? Yeah, and it's like skudalia. Skudalia, yeah. And you can't, you can order it here, you can make it here, but there's nothing like sitting down with a C and ordering it first. And probably some saganaki as well, some fried cheese, because that also you can order here.

See, we don't get much fried cheese. What are you talking about? Well, when do you have fried cheese? Well, I feel like we've delved more into the prawn saganaki, which isn't the fried cheese. I think it just means fried saganaki, just means fried. I thought it meant with cheese. No, no, because it's prawn saganaki, which is just fried cheese, fried prawns.

No, it's with tomato and feta. Okay, but cooked in a frying pan. Okay, fine, you really had to finish that, didn't you, James? No, no, no, we bake it. Well, we're going to let your Greek listeners decide. Yeah, maybe our Greek listeners should decide on that, because us lot, we, no. We bake it. We bake ours, don't we? Yeah, maybe our Greek listeners should decide on that. Because us lot, we don't. But we used to always have those deep fried courgettes.

You know, they were like very, very thick. Like ribbons. Like ribbons. Yes. And then have scordaglio on top of that. And you had to eat them as they came out the pan. Yeah, otherwise it gets soggy. But the colloquia, there's like nothing else on there.

And what's the first drink? Is it a Mithos? No, I probably probably ordered some wine so it's a Crassi Corkino because the great thing about Corkino

is red wine, darling. Yeah, but you're doing you're doing very well. I'm showing off. You are showing off. I'm trying to get quite attractive.

Well, there you go. That's why I'm doing it. A gap in my interest. Because two reasons why I mean we're quite well known now in they you know they recognize us because we go back every year but also almost in the polar opposite of trying to speak french in france greek people love it especially someone as pale as me no one's ever going to mistake me for a mediterranean so when i actually come out with passable restaurant greek

which is all i've got it changes it just creates a lovely atmosphere people love it 30 years I've been twice now to the city lit where Socrates my teacher goes oh bravo

bravo Helena and I know one word what is it? Malakas. Scarce. I'm trying to say hello or I am, and I can't get it at all. And if I get one word right, he goes, bravo. Maybe you need James O'Brien teaching you, Mum.

No, I think not. Over a glass of wine. Too clever. So you are on Table Manners. Thank you. We are thrilled to have you. Ditto. Mum's got a lot of questions.

I've read a lot of the book. Good. A real lot of it. Good. And, I mean, we're going to talk about the book, but can we start at the beginning, dinner time, in your childhood? Where were you brought up?

Kidderminster. Kidderminster in Worcestershire. So Mum and Dad are both from Yorkshire. Yorkshire, and they ended up in Kidderminster? Because Dad was a journalist. So he got made, when I was three and a bit, he was made the Midlands correspondent of the Daily Telegraph, which in those days was a very reputable and respectable newspaper.

But you haven't got a Brummie accent at all. No, no. You managed to avoid that. Well, they did send me to private school, so I think that played a small part in the... I don't have a Yorkshire accent or a Midlands accent, but yeah, Kidderminster, a nice, normal childhood. Was it a boarding school?

Not until... I went to weekly boarding school when I was 10, but only up the road, and only because I insisted on it. My mum was heartbroken. I mean, you don't know these things until you... You were 10? Yeah. And you wanted to go to boarding school? Yeah, because I couldn't be the lead in the school play

unless I was a boarder, because if I was, then mum or dad would have to pick me up at, like, 8, 9 o'clock at night, and they couldn't be the lead in the school play unless I was a boarder, because if I was, then mum or dad would have to pick me up at like eight, nine o'clock at night, and they couldn't really do that, because dad would be out on jobs and my sister would be in bed at home. So without telling them, when I realised that I was in with a chance

of being the lead in the school play, I applied to become a weekly boarder at school. The headmaster was very surprised by this, because my parents hadn't mentioned it, and I went home and told my parents, and my mum burst into tears. And I didn't really register at the time how thoughtless that was of me but I got the part did you get the part yeah I got the part what was the part it was playing the scarecrow in Percival the Performing Pig so it's one of the greats one of the one of the

canon one of the canon there wasn't even any kissing in it. You chose the scarecrow over your mother. There's the Danish, there's the Scottish play, and then there's Percival the performing pig. No, I didn't choose, but it was weird. I mean, school in those days, I got in at the very end of that Victorian era almost, when children were still beaten, and the dormitories were still very Spartan, and you'd have, you know,

you weren't quite breaking the ice on your water bowls. But particularly at my next school, bullying was quite normal. So it was very weird, actually, but it was not wholly unpleasant and I never regretted it. Did you miss your mum and dad? Yeah, desperately. I used to miss the smell of my mum's hair. I always remember that.

Always, when I was at my... What did it smell of? Did she have hairspray on? She. Oh. Always, when I was at my... What did it smell of? I don't know. Did she have hairspray on? She must have worn perfume, mustn't she? Probably. I don't know,

it was longcomb. What's longcomb's best perfume? Elm that. Was it elm that? No, longcomb perfume. It was perfume. Oh,

perfume. So mum worked on the Estee Lauder counter in Owen and Kidderminster for a while around that time. So she always smelled lovely. And yeah,

I'd miss that. I'd really miss that. What was the food like at boarding school perhaps well both absolutely shocking i could not exaggerate how awful it was and i found it inedible but i'd i was quite i'd been quite spoiled i suppose always mum would cook our favorites and what were your favorites i used to love what mum called it risotto right right? But it wasn't risotto. What was it? It was bolognese sauce with rice.

Clever. It's delicious. And it's probably still... Maybe you should try that with your kids. It's so good. It's so good. But that's what I thought risotto was. So when I moved to London and I went to a fancy Italian restaurant

and I saw risotto on the menu, I thought... So I ordered a risotto. What did you get? Well, I got a lumpy soup, didn't I? Which was delicious. And thank God, I really, really liked it. But it wasn't. So obviously, I'd been slightly misled about what constitutes.

So she'd do that. But also normal mince. You know, mince and onions with potatoes. Was she a good cook? Yeah, I think so. But I think she was a brilliant cook. But also, you know, this was the 70s and 80s. So we'd have finders crispy bread

pizzas finders french bread pizzas and pancake rolls but that felt like a treat yeah they were treats so treat for what we call now processed food was a treat it was like mum would normally cook something have a roast every sunday with yorkshire puddings whatever the roast was we'd always have yorkshire puddings so you went home every weekend did until I was 13 and then where did you go and then I'd stay at school and then when I went to my next school in Yorkshire a place called Ampleforth oh my god I'd be away for a month and yeah it was horrible in many many ways but um the food there was shocking are you catholic yeah oh yeah yeah that's a clue it meant a lot to my dad, the Catholic element of it.

But the food was unbelievable. The first thing I used to do, I still do this. My mum notices it. Dad's not with us anymore. I go back to Kidderminster. I've got my own home now, I'm very glad to say, with a family and two children. And I have a rough idea about what's in the cupboard

and what's in the fridge. But whenever I go to my mum's, I was 52 last week, whenever I go to my mum's, I open the fridge, check out what's in the fridge and what's in the fridge but whenever i go to my mum's i was 52 last week whenever i go to my mum's i open the fridge check out what's in the fridge because because you're hungry or just because you're i've already delved in and just have a little like pick of a bit of cheese i'm literally still holding this sense of finally there's food in this no i'm just greedy yeah well it's perfectly normal behavior isn't it so so would you say the bolognese the bolognese risotto was the kind of memorable dish of your childhood for home cooked that was my favorite dish my sister's was fish fingers and chips uh and then

on fridays we'd get fish and chips from the chippy that was a treat as well um but yeah there were other things i used to i used to really like cold ham and new potatoes with with salad mum would do that as well i'm trying to think i'm not i'm not doing her a great service but she's still with you yeah yeah does she come for christmas she's not very mobile at the moment so she came for last christmas but she couldn't come for this christmas so we went up there in between christmas and new year my sister cooked my sister started cooking quite late in sort of a mid to late 40s she suddenly discovered a um an enthusiasm for cooking which is really really nice so food kind of yeah it did play quite a big part and we'd go out quite a lot i realized now that dad was putting it on expenses which i didn't realize at the time so

yeah exactly so we'd go out for Indian food and Chinese food, which was still relatively new. There was only one or two Indian and Chinese restaurants in Kidderminster at the time. And I just, yeah, I think the combination of having really good food at home and really awful food at school had quite an odd effect on me for a while. So it's almost bingey. Did you go on holiday in england or did you go away

no i think i really i think they were spending so much on school fees they couldn't afford anywhere else couldn't really so we we stayed in a caravan in brittany one year uh and we stayed in a weird cottage in filey that some distant uncle owned and you had to put five pence pieces in the in the meter but no we'd never really holidayed as kids and i think it was presented to me as as your dad doesn't like going on holiday but i realize now that they kind of bankrupted themselves sending me to that bloody school so i mean you you know you had this acting ambition initially yeah and then your dad is a what was a journalist when did things change for you when did you well go into journalism do you know do you ever do that thing where you've got a story

yeah and you can't remember whether it's actually true or not oh yeah let's go with it it's such a good story okay so i thought i was going to be an actor i wanted to be an actor i got expelled from school oh which let why cannabis which doesn't sound like a very big deal i know but it was 1990 so were you selling it were you smoking it um i wasn't i wasn't selling it but i was so how did you access it well we would go illegally into york we'd get a taxi me and my best friends would you didn't go to betty's for for a crime no but i did my old english teacher took me to betty's i sat i sat down and? No, but I did. My old English teacher took me to Betty's. I sat down and he says, I have terrible news.

So my old English teacher, Mr Davey, drove me into York illegally to meet my girlfriend. I was going out with a girl who was the granddaughter of a famous poet. She was the granddaughter of a poet called William Empson. And your English teacher loved this? Well, because he'd known William Empson in Hong Kong during the war. I think that they'd both been spy adjacent, but obviously he could never talk to me about that. And William Empson had been thrown out of Cambridge because a cleaner found a condom in his drawer.

So this would be the 1930s. You weren't allowed to have a condom? No, apparently not. Well, I think you weren't supposed to have sex outside marriage, I presume. 1930s, it's a while. He wasn't gay or anything. No, no, no, nothing like that. I thought they would encourage that.

Mr Davey might have been, but William Empson definitely wasn't. But he could not believe I was going out with the granddaughter of this poet that he'd known in Hong Kong in the 30s. And he caught me one day looking quite depressed, and I said, I really want to see my... He said, I'll drive you. So I got under a blanket in the back of his car. Oh, my God!

He drove me into yours. Is this true? No, this one's true. But they're all true. But the next one I'm not 100% sure is correct. into yours is this true no this one's true but they're all true but i there's the next one i'm not 100 sure is correct it's not as good as this one and and it takes me to meet my girlfriend i go and meet her and we you know spend a bit of time together and then i say i come and meet mr david she goes i can't i've got to get back to school i'm all because she hopped over the wall as well she was at a boarding school she was at a boarding school in york called

the mount would you believe how did you meet her? Well, we used to go into York at the weekends with, like, pockets full of money that all our mates had given us, and then we'd score, and take it back and dish it out. But how did you meet the girlfriend? She'd be in the pubs and the wine bars that we used to... Smoking cannabis as well. No, we didn't

really do it in York, but we'd go out for a drink and have a... And I got to Betty's, and Mr Davies waiting for a drink and have a and i got to betty's and mr davy's waiting for me and i said rachel couldn't join us sadly she had to go back to school and he goes i have terrible news and i thought fuck we've been busted i'm gonna get expelled because you know that's it straight out the door and he'd be in all sorts of trouble as well and i said what and he said they've run out of muffins. What was worse?

Not seeing Rachel. I always feel that a boy should have muffins with his English teacher. He was lovely. It was a touch of the Uncle Monty's about him. But to answer your question, so I got expelled and the deal with mum was, I have to get a degree now. I can't apply to drama school. I have to have a safety net. And if I get a degree, then she'll help me go to drama school. Mum and now I can't apply to drama school oh I have to have a safety

net and if I if I get a degree then she'll help me go to drama school mum and dad will help me go to drama did she see your performance she did yes she did that may have influenced her reticence and then in my first year at university I saw Michael Sheen I went to the London School of Economics and I saw Michael Sheen in When She Danced with Vanessa Redgrave. And he was only a little bit older than me. I think he got, I think he may have, more or less the same age. I think he got cast in his final year at RADA. And this would be my first year at university.

And I just remember thinking, there's no point, mate. I'm not even close to this guy. So that was the end of that. So journalism happened because you just... Well, what did you do at LSE first? Philosophy. Right, okay. It was supposed to be philosophy and economics.

But because I'd been expelled from school, I didn't have a great deal of support during my university application period. And I got in. You'd gotten to LSE? You must have been incredibly bright, though. I wasn't stupid. But I got there on my first day.

The course I was signed up for involved economics. And the teacher said, my daughter loves this story. The teacher said, has anybody here not got a maths A-level? And there's about 170 kids in the room. About 30 of us put our hand up. And then he says, OK, now has anybody here not got an economics A-level? And probably about 40 of us put our hand up. then he says okay and now has anybody here not got an economics a level and probably about 40 of us put our hand up and then he said like laughing because anyone just put their hand up twice and i put my hand and i look around the room no one else is literally not

a single other person who so i thought this is going to be interesting and i was i wasn't cut out for that so i dropped that bit of it and just did the philosophy which was lovely Did you work for a newspaper? Back in the day, yeah, kind of I couldn't get arrested when I left college so I carried on with my student job I worked at Aquascutum on Regent Street do you remember Aquascutum? Posh raincoats and suits

and I liked it and I always worked in retail I worked in River Island I was a 40 long in those days. Close to a 44 regular now. I don't know how that works. And I carried on doing it. And it was just reaching the point where I didn't think journalism was going to happen. I'd applied for all the traineeships.

And did you want to be a journalist? Yeah, that was always. You decided this was your path. If I wasn't going to be an actor, then I wanted to be a journalist like my dad. That was all I ever wanted. Oh, yeah, because your dad was a journalist. Because a lot of us grew up just thinking, all I want to do is what my parents did.

Because you don't know anything else. So, James, what I really want to know, please God, when we have a change of government, what are you going to do? This has been a very rich vein for you. Yeah, good for business, bad for the soul. That's how I'd describe it. So, you're not going did have a go here are you

i mean obviously if he if he does bad things i'll be after him like a rat up a rain drain pipe with with a sense of betrayal which i never have with the tories but i don't think he will at the moment have you always been a labour voter uh you did vote for boris yeah well i think i did in 2008 i'm not like an ironic vote kind of just i didn't i wasn't very political I think I did in 2008. I'm not 100% Is that like an ironic vote? Kind of. I wasn't very political. I know that sounds hard to believe

but I wasn't paying attention. I wasn't very, very engaged. I was a showbiz journalist. I was never a political And he was I was never a political

journalist. He's very Showbiz? For which paper? Yeah, I ended up as showbiz editor of the Daily Express when I was about 27.

Fuck it now. It's a very different paper. Calm down, seriously. It was edited by Rosie Boycott, who founded Spare Rib magazine. She was a brilliant feminist, a huge liberal. She organised the legalised cannabis campaign that got Paul McCartney involved in it. Does she smoke a lot? What? I don't remember. Is that how you got the job, James yeah i used to sort around no i did

christ no um but it was not yeah i have to qualify that when i say i worked for the x because it was a complete i don't know because i needed work that i would ever have turned down work on more right-wing papers but it was not a right- wing paper so I ended up doing a little I got offered a job on telly because it's a mad one this so you start getting booked to do paper reviews or late night appearances on Five Live and then things just escalated to the point where they'd be inviting you

onto breakfast television to talk about Liam and Patsy's relationship and you knew nothing none of them know anything the royals are the same no the royal people none of them know anything but you just sit there and sound plausible do you make it do you never make it up but you just sort of say well obviously you know things aren't looking great and then the presenter would say well you can say that again they just got divorced do you ever do you ever regret anything that you've said on air yeah on air or as a showbiz journalist one thing yeah one thing i feel really really bad

and quite silly about was was the beckhams why because the two the two or the three big icons of our generation that I loved from the start were the Beckhams and Robbie Williams. There's a review, and I can't find it because it's not online, of Robbie Williams' first album. I gave five stars to it. I called it brilliant. And at the time, everyone was slagging it off.

It was only when Angels came out that his career started coming back round again. And I wish I could fucking find it. I'm sure Robbie can. Have you seen all that bloody archival footage? I'm sure he's got it. After David Beckham got sent off in the World Cup for kicking that

Diego Simeone. Of course, we all loved him. Well, not then we didn't. I loved him. You and me saw the truth. Jesse and I used to go to Chelsea and they'd be going boo and we'd say piss off, leave him alone. Good. We did, didn't we? We loved him.

So I got the first interview. In fact, my entire journalistic career was based on getting this interview because everybody wanted it. I was completely unknown. How did you get it? I got it, I don't know if I've ever told anyone this before. I love that. I got it by giving very, I don't know.

I got it by giving very warm reviews to all of the other clients that the PR company had. Oh my God. You know, I'd say, yeah, that's a banging tune. So you got the interview with them. And you got the interview. And I got the big interview. With both of them. Victoria was there. She was eight months interview with them. And you got the interview. And I got the big interview. With both of them. Victoria was there. She was eight months pregnant with Brooklyn.

Just to time it, to place it in space and time. Yeah. And I just thought they were lovely. And he was so shy. He so didn't want to be there. I mean, and she was so... She supported him a lot, didn't she? They loved the bones of each other.

Do you know what she did? She did his hair and makeup. We had hair and makeup. And she did it. So without telling them I put across the bottom of the photograph I put hair and makeup

Victoria Adams as she was at the time. So what do you regret? Oh, I'm coming to that. Share it with the group James. So I was a favoured journalist. Oh God. And I think it was

even in the diary that he was going to come around to my place in earl's court after a chelsea game in top secret circumstances and we would talk about me ghosting his first autobiography and then and then they got married so you'd have to check the timings i might be slightly misremembering and for reasons i can't quite remember I must have had a real dry patch of bylines. I must have not had a byline in the paper for a couple of weeks which as the showbiz editor is quite a big deal.

And so I wrote a piss-taking piece about their wedding. Are you mad? Yes. Well, I didn't think they'd care or notice or know. They wore purple and sat on thrones. Now, this would have been post you doing the interview with him

where you actually got on well with them really well really well and so and I wrote something like what did you say as the doves took off

not nice into the the darkening sky so the last vestiges of their credibility went with them or something terrible

like that and if you'd said to me at the time that's a bit silly I would have said to you don't be dove so the last vestiges of their credibility went with them or something terrible terrible like that and if you'd said to me at the time that's a bit silly i would have said to you don't be daft they're not going to care but they really did they did she really cared apparently and the pr that i'd spent a long time cultivating who i actually really liked as well but she was a notoriously fierce pr she she fucking went for me down the phone. I mean, you could... You don't blame her. Holding it. Well, nor do I now.

You asked if there's anything I regretted. These aren't stories I'm proud of. But actually, I think that's mean. Yes, it is. It was awful behaviour.

So that, yeah, more than anything else. Did you know what you were doing when you did that? No. No idea. I needed a byline, Jessie.

I needed to get my name in the paper because it hadn't been... It's a very high-pressure... These aren't excuses, they're explanations. Yeah. It's a high-pressure environment. And, you know, I was cocky, late 20s.

Quite a lot of people quite keen to see me fail. So I was always conscious of pushing the boat out. But what a shitty thing to do on their wedding day. Have you ever seen them since? No, I saw them at the Albert Hall. I forget what the boat out. But what a shitty thing to do. On their wedding day. Have you ever seen them since? I saw them at the Albert Hall. I forget what the gig was. And we were all in the posh bits. And she...

Did she recognise you? Yeah, and then she remembered. So this is going back a long time. So it wouldn't have been long afterwards. And I saw her face go, oh, it's that lovely bloke that interviewed David. Yeah, he wasn't so lovely.. And I saw her face go, oh, it's that lovely bloke that interviewed David. Yeah, he was so lovely. And then I saw the face go,

oh, and he's the bastard that... And that was that. So I'm really sorry about that. Well, I'm sure they're listening to the podcast. Maybe they accept your apology. I don't know. I hope so. I hope so.

It's very sincere. What has been your... Maybe it's hard to say, your proudest moment? Or the thing that has just felt the most terrifyingly brilliant piece of, well, for LBC. Was there one moment where you were like, this, everyone's listening, you can hear a pin drop. I'm not that fussed about memes. I don't have any booked guests on the show. I don't chase headlines, which might be a mistake.

So, I mean, when people... And I don't know why this happens psychologically, but people sometimes tell you stuff they've never told anybody else before. There's a sort of, almost like the confessional, the relationship between the caller. And you have to have spent years in the job to build up that sort of trust. But we did and continue to do quite a lot.

Well, we did a lot more before politics went mad on child sexual abuse. And people would ring in, adults would ring in, grown men would ring in and break down in tears. And that was both you know profoundly horrible and and profoundly special so those would be in terms of the actual moment on air that they would be the most powerful off air and this happened surprisingly often until about 2020 people would tell me that they had, that the show had changed them enough to change their politics.

So there's one chap who's now trying to become a Labour candidate who was a member of the EDL when he started listening to the show. And he came to see me at a gig and he sat in the front row and he was staring at me to the point where I was quite unnerved.

But he was just trying to pluck up the courage I was quite unnerved yeah but he was just trying to pluck up the courage to come up afterwards and he gave me a letter I said I can't talk to you but please read this and he'd left his number on it so I got in touch with him just to say thank you and that that happened about that happened about a dozen times not specifically EDL members but but quite often people who'd been persuaded by very far right or very unpleasant rhetoric and then they tune into the show and just sort of slowly think well hang on that's but quite often people who'd been persuaded by very far right or very unpleasant rhetoric, and then they'd tune into the show and just sort of slowly think, well, hang on, that's bollocks.

And then they'd hear people ring in with the same opinions that they had, and it generally doesn't go well for them. And so those are special moments for me, a sort of combination of on-air and off-air. And then career-wise, probably I did an interview with nigel farage in about 2014 that went berserk and i mean truly berserk and it's sadly in a way it was before viral clips were a thing but it was you know it was it was huge news the next day

he was dragged out of the studio by his own pr it was what was the discussion around the discussion was around him being a racist liar and and that no one else had done I couldn't understand why so because I'd follow it and there's a friend of mine called Alex Andreu who writes he does the uh oh god what now podcast now um and and and writes a bit and he was and he'd written for the new statesman it's about half a dozen things that had come to my attention about the the fascists that they were knocking about within the european parliament the the hardcore national front racists that he'd been knocking about with when he was trying to get into into into the top of ukip the stuff that he'd said about people speaking foreign on trains despite the fact that his own children spoke german at home all of this stuff actually really concerned me you know i thought this is

weird because he was still a bit smelly for the for the mainstream media in 2014 they still but i just you know i just had a sense that because of callers a great thing about my job is that I get a proper opportunity to find out what people are thinking. And when people are sharing with you really pungent opinions and you dig into where they come from, quite a lot of roads were leading back to Nigel Farage on the immigration stuff. The Muslim stuff was more, what's his chops little tommy ten names but the but the the the immigration and the racism and the brussels stuff in 2014 that was all nigel ferrers so he comes on quite a convoluted process by which he comes on the program and i just hit him with all the stuff that i know and it's just all there and and it it was it was it

i mean it was terrible for him but it didn't and people like dan hodges who writes to the mail on sunday now wrote the next day farage is finished his career is over the son wrote the next day this is a clearly racist position the son came out against him and on my side the mail commissioned me to write about what a toss pot he was and i remember thinking at the time and saying at the time to my wife and my listeners I said it's not going to touch the size you should see my inbox people love it people think he got the better of me he's still gone YouTube and like 10% of the replies on that clip will say he got the better of me which is a bit like saying someone has just been beaten five nil actually won so how did you feel when he became a

presenter on LBC? I was very uncomfortable and very unhappy. Did you ever think about leaving? I did, yeah, of course. I did think about leaving, but what would that have achieved? Did you come across him? Only once. He's resilient, isn't he?

Yeah, of course. He doesn't care. He does care. He's desperate to be liked. What's's he does care he's desperate to be liked what's he care about he's desperate to be liked

he ate fucking penises and balls that's why he did I'm a Celebrity that was terrifying although lots of nice people have done

I'm a Celebrity he is Matt Hancock well no not Matt Hancock I was thinking more of my mate James McVeigh out of the family

Harry Redknapp Peter Andre that was a good year he's desperate to be liked would you do I'm a Celebrity I don't think I could very out of the family. She's had a Harry Redknapp. Pizza Andre. That was a good year. He's desperate to be liked. What do you do when I'm a celebrity? I don't think I could. I don't think I'm... I'm really bad with rats.

Mum, can I help with any of the food? No, it's almost done. What are we having? So we're having lamb tagine with couscous and some tomato and cucumber salad and some beans. That's perfect. I hope it's all right. You know it will be. I don't know.

I've heard previous episodes. Nothing's ever gone wrong. So whilst Mum serves up, I would like to ask you your last supper you've got a starter a main a pud and a drink of choice i've got a horrible feeling that i'm a cliche so my starter would be a stone cold prawn cocktail i had a very good prawn cocktail at the weekend. Where were you? It's this new restaurant called The Dover in Mayfair. Okay. And it was really fab.

What was in it? What made it different? It wasn't loads of Mary Rose. It had like a little tomato and horseradish dipping thing. It was on this towel. I'll show you a picture. I mean, maybe it wasn't saucy enough, but it was fabulous. Go on, where have you had your best prawn cocktail

well do you not have like that oh look at that yeah it looks fab right that does look nice it looks good right what's it

just on lettuce it was on like it felt like almost like kohlrabi or something like that but also lettuce iceberg lettuce it was good

so you've got that memory of the perfect one which would be at the Bernie Inn where's the Bernie Inn? The Bernie Inn was a steak. Your mum will know. I know she is.

So it was like a steakhouse. In most towns outside big cities, the Bernie Inn would be the only restaurant with metal cutlery. And it was steak. Oh, yeah. And it was steak, prawn cocktail. These were the days when you could have grapefruit juice as a starter. But the Ivy do an amazing prawn cocktail. Do they?

Yeah, they do. And so do the... It's come back. It has. It's in vogue. Yeah, but it never went out of vogue for me. I can't... I mean, or oysters.

Oysters? Yeah. But I always think that's not a proper starter. So it was my birthday on Saturday. Your birthday? Thank you. And we went out for dinner. And because it was my birthday, I ordered oysters and a starter. So it was my birthday on Saturday. Your birthday? Thank you. And we went out for dinner. And because it was my birthday, I ordered oysters and a starter.

Yeah, damn right. They did a crab toast, which was incredible. Yum. Where did you go? We went to a new restaurant in Brentford called The Waterside, which is Sam Harrison's place, the same guy who has The Riverside in Hammersmith. So it was a good meal?

Yeah, it was excellent. Okay, so you're having oysters and a prawn cocktail. Yeah, I think so. And then? It's a tough one, isn't it? It is a tough one, James, but you ask the tough questions so you know. I mean, I don't think I enjoy any meal as consistently as

a really good cod and chips with mushy peas. Oh, well where do you get your cod and chips from? Well it's quite hard in the South East. Is it? Yeah. No, we've got a great one. Poppies is alright. Poppies is a chain. We've got ollies. We've got moxons.

Ollies in Herne Hill. Yeah. And we've got moxons. Okay. Who are a fishmonger. I'll try that out. Have some of that. Jess, can you help people? No, it's alright. It's all under control. You think? Yeah.

Chill out, Mum. So that would be, I'd find it very hard to beat that. Ever since I was a kid, that is my meal of champions. But it's hit and miss, isn't it? There's nothing worse than... Actually, fish and chips is lovely. Oh, it's nothing like it. It is delicious, actually.

Okay, so we're going fish and chips. Yeah. Lots of vinegar. Yeah, it's nothing like it. It is delicious, actually. Okay, so we're going fish and chips. Yeah. Lots of vinegar? Yeah, loads of vinegar. Brown sauce. Brown sauce? Brown sauce. Always brown sauce.

Oh, that makes sense. Because it's tangy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that. Although it doesn't make sense. Of course it makes sense. Can we get a little bad sausage on the side? Back in the day.

Back in the day. Back in the day. A savoy and chips for a snack on the way home. I think that's what your teacher might have got you. It's in his dreams. Pudding. Sweet person. Sweet kind of guy. I don't know.

As I'm getting older, I'm not enjoying sweets as much as I used to. I was a huge sweet. And also sweet sweets. You know, like penny sweets. Quarters. Quarter pound sweets. I used to eat them a huge sweet and also sweet sweets you know like penny sweets quarters quarter pound sweets I used to eat coming out of my ears but

not as much as I used to be I like a cheesecake I like do you know actually again quite straightforward

it'd be a good old fashioned custard tart like a little custard not a Portuguese one I like the Portuguese ones but I'd go for a it used to be

Greg's doesn't do them but before Greg's there was a bakery chain called Wimbush or they used to do sweet cakes as well and that would be the yeah be a custard tart

crumbly pastry and drink of choice my favourite alcoholic drink is a martini a vodka martini. Oh, with a twist? I like it very dry with an olive. Dirty, then?

Not dirty. That's when you pour in the juice. They do one at the restaurant I went to on Saturday. They call it the TW8 martini. And they do it with caper berries. Oh, yum. Big, fat capers. And it was good.

And a little bit of the caper berry juice in it. I never had that before that was very special or a nice glass of red wine or ginger beer if i'm feeling abstemious i love ginger beer i i'm sure when you were showbiz editor you must have wined and dined people yeah Where was the spot to take people? Well, it varied, so... Was it Nobu? Nobu was a little bit later. We went to the hemp pool a couple of times in South Kensington.

I remember going there with the Lighthouse family because I got on... They were lovely lads, Paul and Tunde. They were really, really... What was the song? There's loads,

but Lifted probably. We can be lifted, lifted. I loved them. And I hated the fact that people thought they were a bit naff because they were not naff. Paul Tucker, the songwriter, his dance music credentials were impeccable.

But you know how it happens sometimes, is that bands that are brilliant musically just get a weird reputation that they don't deserve. Who were you a massive fan of, apart from the Lighthouse family and Robbie Williams, that you also gave five stars to? Ian Brown was solo by the time I got on Sifflet Street

but the Stone Roses all day long. The Verve broke through during that period. I did Ian Brown on a I'd been dumped

the night before. By the Greek trans yes it was actually although we we got back together later but I'd been dumped

transatlantically I was in a bit of a just a bit of a tizzy so I turned the tape on I started interviewing him later. But I've been dumped transatlantically. I was in a bit of a just a bit of a tizzy. So I turn the tape on, I start interviewing him and I say ten minutes in I say I'm sorry. I got dumped last night and I'm just not focused. I can't remember

I've forgotten what I've already done. I'm just in a right old mess. What did Ian Brown say? And he just said, don't worry about it. He said just write what you want. I love that. He said, don't make me sound like a twat. And then I think we kind of just had a couple of beers at the minibar and I went home.

Wasn't that nice of him? And did you just write something? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'd drawn on what I had on the tape and then I think I'd interviewed him once before. And these weren't massive articles. They're only about 500 words. Oh, that's very funny.

Very kind of him. Have I missed the bit where you got to LBC? No. So tell us how you got there, James. Well, I was the world's worst showbiz editor. I could write. I could write good stories, but I never recognised. My antennae, my new sense was non-existent.

Best example of that probably when I was at the Chart Show. Yeah. And Geri Halliwell was performing. And Chris Evans was in her dressing room. And I just thought, oh, that's nice. And I open up the newspapers the next day and every other newspaper obviously has the story of their burgeoning romance. Oh, were they in a relationship?

About ten minutes, I think. I didn't know that. I'm just crap at this. My phone would ring at midnight every night and it'd be the night editor saying, the Daily Mail have got this story, the Sun have got this story, why haven't we got this story?

And I'd have to say, because it's not true. And it was true, but I just missed it. I was rubbish. So the paper was owned by the same guy that owned most of Channel 5. And they were launching a TV show. Called? Called The Right Stuff. Oh, yeah.

My friend Amol worked on it. Yeah, after my time. So was that a pleasant experience? It was, actually. We moved to Norwich. I got out of newspapers, which was good. We were just married. My wife was still working on Fleet Street most of the time, but we got to spend a lot more time together than we would have done if we'd both been still on newspapers.

And it went nuts for me overnight. I got offered a chat show by Anglia, so I did a regional chat show for ITV. I was being offered documentaries. And I just thought that's how it worked. I didn't have an agent. I just thought, this is easy. Why do people always talk about how hard it is to get into telly? And I was just, for about 18 months, we were rocking the house, and then it all ended. The production company, I think Anglia lost the contract to make the programme. The new people making it didn't want the same panellists on every day, so they started rotating and then

you'd be booked a bit less and a bit less and clearly I was being squeezed out and when you're not on telly every day people aren't ringing you up to offer you other stuff and I said to Lucy I'm gonna have to go back to newspapers this is this is dried up now and she said I realize now very diplomatically instead of saying you were crap at newspapers, she said, you're really good at broadcasting and I think you should give it a year. Where did you meet Lucy? At the Express.

Oh, at the Express. And so I did. And towards the end of that year, LBC offered me some swing, some holiday cover. And that's kind of where it started, how I got in, just to pay my tax bill. It's now like, well, I mean, it I got in, just to pay my tax bill. It's now like, well, I mean, it's huge.

Yeah, it's an amazing story. You have the biggest news... Biggest commercial radio talk show, which, considering the first show I did 20 years ago, on Sunday night, no-one rang me for an hour and 15 minutes. So I'm having to repeat the same stuff again and again and again, repeating the phone number until it was like... Oh, my God. That's terrible.

And then at 11.15, so it was 10 o'clock on a Sunday night, and the slot I'd taken over from hadn't been a phone-in show. Listeners are quite creatures of habit. Yeah. So no one rang in. And at 11.15, finally, one phone line lights up on the switchboard. And I recognise it, and it's my wife, ringing from our landline at 11.15, finally, one phone line lights up on the switchboard. And I recognise it. And it's my wife ringing from our landline at home.

And she calls herself Miranda from Ladbroke Grove. What was her question? Something about, I was talking about Diana, Princess of Wales, and trying to get a story going about that. And she made nice, sensible contributions. And then my best mate, Luke, obviously realised what was happening. And he's an actor and he rang in and for reasons I've never

fully understood he decided to adopt a Northern Irish accent in case anyone recognised him That's amazing That's amazing Also it's one of the hardest accents to sustain and halfway through

he stopped sustaining it. Laps straight back into his sort of Notting Hill twang. I feel like we need to go back to food for a bit. Even though this is fascinating and brilliant. Is there anywhere else you go regularly? You go to Greece. Is there anywhere else that you'll go and do you go for the food or are you going for the vibe?

Are you going for the music or switching off? Sorry, you do have a mouthful, so I'm so sorry. I've just asked you that question when you've got a mouthful. We've been to Venice. My wife loves Venice. Oh, it's gorgeous. So expensive. It is expensive.

And we've been three times. And the first two times we went, we didn't have good food. I don't think the food is great. The duck ragout is their famous dish. Is it? It is, isn't it? Duck ragout, and it's delicious if you get the right place. But I don't think we...

When we went to Venice, we didn't eat well, did we? No, but maybe we just didn't know the spots. That's the point. It's a bit like being in Leicester Square and looking for a place. So the last time we went, and we stayed in an Airbnb, rather than a hotel, and we just hit the jackpot. And every meal we had. Thank you.

A little bit further from the main drag, every meal we had was extraordinary. And I can remember some of the meals we had there some of the pasta dishes we had there which were good enough to want to go back for that and also Lucy loves Venice it is gorgeous

it really is I want to know have they tried to poach you for other programmes I can't really answer that question do you think you'll be staying at LBC I can say yes but I can't really answer that question. Okay. Do you think you'll be staying at the LBC? Well, I can say yes. Yeah. But I can't go into too many details.

But also, you know, the landscape is very right-wing now. The new broadcast platforms that are being set up are slightly to the right of Genghis Khan. Which is really weird, actually. And I don't write about this because it's too self-referential. But if you have managed to take a leftish liberal position and turn it into the most popular show on the market, why are they all setting up stations to be right-wing?

Why are they all trying to emulate the... So you look at what's happening at LBC, people like Sheila Fogarty coming in, people like Emily Maitl like Emily Carol Vorderman and Maitlis Soper and Lewis doing the podcast for the newsagents, Lewis doing a show on LBC and much much more

the transformation from when Hopkins and Farage were on the station and it's much more popular now so the people setting up GBBs or Talk TV are not doing it to be market leaders. They're doing it for different reasons. What are they doing it for?

They're doing it for influence. They're doing it for influence. I mean, Jesse, it's so terrifying. It is terrifying because when you track Boris's, for example, just Boris's journey, it is terrifying how he got there. And it was all kind of calculated. It wasn't just by chance.

No, and sponsored as well. I thought Alistair explained this on Table Manners better than I can because he's so much closer to the action. And he's been there and been around the block and played the bagpipes. But that combination, that Venezuelan writer he quotes who talks about the three Ps, populism, polarisation and the other one. What's it?

Oh, I did it again, sorry. Are you a broadcaster? Yeah, but I'm a very maverick broadcaster who breaks the rules on a daily basis. Should I have a go at these? Can I help? I just need to know, how many, as being a journalist, how many episodes of Tobermanners did you listen to before coming on here? And were you terrified James?

I'd listened to a couple back in the day because you were very early adopters. Oh, thank you. And it still pops up on my notifications. So I listened to Andrew Ridgely quite recently. Oh, he's lovely. I was so jealous. I couldn't get him on mine. And I know for a fact that I'm a bigger Wham fan than either of you. No, you're not. I am.

Hey, everybody, take a look at me. I've got street credibility. I may not have a job, but I have a good time with the boys that I meet down on the line. Go on. Young Guns. Is that Young is that young guns no next verse yeah no christmas oh my god you and alice campbell would really get on we do get on you could go back to back with wam and abba yes no i i like alistair he's a force for good he is he is a force for good and he doesn't he doesn't ever get jaded which I find

quite hard sometimes not to get jaded but his appetite for the fight is undimmed isn't it as you came across

very powerfully in that in your interview with him I would like to know if we were coming to your house what would you cook

for us James well I bought a new oven so we've just you cook for us james well i bought a new oven so we've just had a lot of work done and i bought a new oven that has a rotisserie have you tried it yeah and i have not got the hang of it so i would not cook you a rotisserie unless i've had the chance to practice oh here's the thing what do you know that saint augur blue cheese yeah love it stick a tablespoon of that in a bowl of sprouts and thank me later oh oh that's a pretty good idea that's my first recipe okay so would that be our starter yeah so i'm not joking try you must

you know that with a vodka martini would be delicious my desert island dish that would be bloody fantastic i I mean, it's like you go, oh my Christ, how come no one else has thought of this? It's just extraordinary. And you don't need

the chestnuts or the pancetta. You just do the sprouts, a spoonful of the santalguer and you're away. You're laughing. So we'd have sprouts

with santalguer and then we wouldn't have the chicken matissa until you've done a few more things. Oh, I'd do a lamb. I'd like a lamb on the barbecue. So you get a butterflied leg of lamb from the butchers.

There's a great butcher's near us called Wyndham House who've got a place in the garden centre around the corner. You know how garden centres... Is the garden centre being a peach and mousse? No. Yeah, the one in... So there's two things, two reasons to go there for foodies. Number one is the Wyndham's butcher.

Number two is my friend Enzo, who has the ice cream van in the car park. Enzo, if you mention my name, Enzo will sort you out. Get you free ice cream. He also sells olive oil. If he's been at home in Italy recently, he'll have some top of the range artisan olive oil.

I love you, James. You say I'm not much of a sweet person, but you're shouting out your ice cream bloke in a Caribbean car park. Yeah, although, you know, he does this pistachio thing, which isn't really as sweet. Oh, I love pistachio. But it's got pistachio oil in it. And I think he gets them in from Italy as well.

And it's like a big mini milk on a stick. Oh, my God. But it's quite savoury, you know, with the pistachio. It's not too sour. It's extraordinary. Well, Michael McIntyre... So I'll get you one of those. Okay, thank you.

I love that, actually. Michael McIntyre came on here, and he talked about having olive oil on his ice cream when he went to Italy. I haven't heard of that. So, yeah. Are they in? Are the fondants in?

They're in. But I think it's going to be more than nine minutes it sounds slightly sparse Brussels sprouts in a pistachio ice cream but I'm kind of here for it

you distracted me you distracted me the lamb so I do a butterflied leg of lamb that Wyndham's prepared and they put it in a sealed bag with all the garlic

and rosemary oh wow and then you barbecue it and I do a half and half barbecue where you put all the charcoal on one side of the barbecue and you sear Garlic and rosemary. Oh, wow. And then you barbecue it. And I do a half and half barbecue, where you put all the charcoal on one side of the barbecue, and you sear the lamb for about two or three minutes each side. On the... Above the coals.

Oh, right. And then you move it to the non-coal bit and put the lid on, and it cooks to absolute perfection. Sorry, what's the non-coal bit? The gas barbecue? So it's half and half. No, I use charcoal, but you've only got charcoal on one side of the...

How hard is this? How would it... I don't understand. You put the lid on and it's working like an oven. Okay. How long would you cook? So 40 minutes, I think, for barbecue. Possibly slightly longer, but I've got a Heston Blumenthal meat thermometer from TK Maxx.

Okay. But it is... Do you like it rare? Yes, I do but the thing with the butterfly leg of lamb is that the ends of it are not rare

so it's a pièce de résistance it's a win win there's something for everybody so you can give them the sort of like you know nice bit the nice crunchy bit

on the end and then other people can have so I'd serve that probably not with sprouts in blue cheese what would you do with that

a salad and a salsa verde salsa verde that's one of my things I a salsa verde, salsa verde, you see, that's one of my things. I like salsa verde. Yeah,

I use Jamie's recipe for that. It's really good, his recipe. Yeah, and he puts all sorts of stuff in there, like gherkins and, anchovies, the gherkin juice. yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah. Look at that, that is what I call moist. That's more than moist. The worst word in the world, however.

Sorry, I heard you say that as well. Rick Astley. Yeah, and what was Alistair's word as well? Portion. Portion. This is yummy, Mum.

This is good. This is really good. Except it shouldn't have been the other way round, but I couldn't do it. Why? It's supposed to come out so you have the crusty bit. Oh, I see. That's good, Mum. I'm going to have some cream on it too,

just to really seal the dill of I see. That's good, Mum. I'm going to have some cream on it too just to really seal the deal of cows today. That is delicious. That's great, Mum. Good job. Quite easy to make, actually. Don't say that. No, just take the claw dips. So, do you have a nostalgic taste

that can transport you back somewhere, good or bad? What a great question. Pear drops. Pear drops all the time. Proper big fat ones that cut your mouth to ribbons and that weird flavour that you get off the back of them. Was there a particular place you'd be eating them? In the back of the car on the way back to boarding school?

No, there was a tuck shop at school, just to go eat in Blyton for a minute. And you could order quarters of sweets. I never had any money. But it wasn't that. I think pear drops go back to Friday sweets. So there was a sweet shop on Hercott Road in Kidderminster where Tom Watson grew up, a former deputy.

We didn't know each other, Greg. Our mums knew each other. I think our mums were both people that it took two hours to go around Sainsbury's because they had to stop and say hello to everybody. But there was a proper sweet shop at the end of the road and you'd order a quarter of something. So okay, pear drops or cannabis?

These days, pear drops all day long. Mum, this is really good. James O'Brien, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. Do you want another? I can't. How could you need two chocolate fondants? No, I can tell you now that I had a dicky tummy yesterday. Oh, shit. Oh, shit.

No, don't say that. That could become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Do you want... No, I knew I was going to be all right, but this is the first time I've eaten since 11 o'clock yesterday. You've done very well. I knew I was going to be fine without going into detail. But you don't want another one.

Well, I don't think I'll have another, no. No, Mum, it's quite rich having a whole fondant. That was exceptional. It was delicious. I'm not going to have another one. I don't think they'll keep. Do you not? No.

All right. Okay, fondant next door. I can't go next door with fondants. Why not? It's only it, though. They could eat it and watch Traitors. I don't even know if they're there. James and Brian, thank you so much.

Thank you. What a treat. Mum is just busy enjoying her wine. You were loving the fact that he was having a few glasses with you. I loved it. Yeah. I love a wine drinker. She's gone.

So what did you think of the tagine? It was good. I nearly told him. I know you did. And he will listen and he will find out. He will listen. So now, James. I think we shouldn't.

James, we apologise. It was, I'd say, 70% Lenny, 30% cook. Or 60-40? No, no, no. Definitely 70-30. But we had to give you something to eat. Yeah. And actually...

The energy went into the chocolate fondant. Yeah, and you know what? That was all Len. Do you know what's clever about chocolate fondant? What? I made it last night. So it was in the fridge. Oh, a little prep.

So you could prep it and then just pop it in. Pop it in? Yeah. It was bloody really good. Did you like it? But James O'Brien, we do apologise that that is the first time that we actually have had cook enter the meal. And I nearly told you.

And then I just thought that was cruel. James O'Brien, what a brilliant guest delightful the amount of information he can retain I can't even remember my children's but he knows about everything he knows about everything and he's just incredibly measured but he does go for the bad guys and he does love a good guy but he I loved hearing the Beckham story and he looked so embarrassed yeah

he should be that was me thank you James O'Brien for being on the podcast brilliant guest Lenny was I was Lenny was a rev

yeah and we'll see you next week