Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S16 Ep 24: Johnny Marr

Episode Date: March 27, 2024

This week we have a true rock and roll star joining us, it’s legendary guitarist Johnny Marr! Creator of the iconic ‘Meat is Murder’ album, Johnny is - of course - a vegan, so I made an array of vegan dishes for us. Shout out to NYT app and @boldbean cookbook for the recipes. We heard all about the meals his mum made while growing up in Manchester, his first band called ‘Paris Valentinos’, getting married in San Francisco while on tour with only the band & crew in attendance, the delicious meals Hans Zimmer serves up on the road and that he is the very proud owner of 134 guitars!! Thank you for being a total delight Johnny, you’re welcome back for another vegan spread anytime! Johnny’s Spirit Power ‘Best of’ album is available now, and the UK tour kicks off on April 2nd. Plus his 'Marr’s Guitars' book is available to purchase now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I think I'm a bit stressed. Oh. Mmm. Why is that darling? We have a vegan. I know, they're always stressful. And I think I've overcompensated out of nerves. Yeah.

Like you do with the chefs, I've done with the vegan. Well I do that as well. I've got a vegan for dinner tonight. You can have, I've made two different soups because I didn't, I do that as well. I've got a vegan for dinner tonight. You can have... I've made two different soups because I didn't... I wasn't sure whether my first soup was good so I've made two different

so you've got soup for a starter, Mum. I've got soup anyway for a starter at mine. What vegan soup are you doing? Tomato and sourdough soup. Oh, that sounds nice. Delicious.

Oh, shit, I should have done that today. Dead easy. Okay, well, I'm on food cooking duties today and it is a pleasure to host Johnny Marr. Wow. But yes, he is a vegan, and I get very nervous, and you are very happy to give me this.

But of course, we've got a child that is, I say, sick in the event of commerce. She's watching Telly Next Door, and it's all going to be okay. The sun's shining at least, isn't it? Yeah. What are you making, darling? Okay, so I have made roast parsnip and pear soup with white beans and then you have it with a rosemary and sage pesto which instead of parmesan and i can't i can't mess with that vegan parmesan it smells like sick i'm sorry that somebody needs

to work on it okay i've put this cashew parmesan thing which is nice okay so you do that and you drizzle that but i'm a bit worried the soup is quite sweet however the herby thing works with it now because i thought it was too sweet yeah i made a cauliflower soup yeah from the new york times which is very creamy yeah so it so we're having two no we're not having two soups and then i've made two so it's choice of soups no i don't even know if I should even offer a choice. Can you just taste the... I know you're going to say it's a bit sweet, but I want to...

Before he comes. Yeah. Okay. So then I've done a New York Times recipe. It is pearl barley with a radicchio and shiitake mushrooms that are kind of crispy. And you do it with a balsamic reduction with shallots. So that's quite nice

gorgeous and then I've done grilled broccoli with this mixture of sizzled nuts and seeds that you do and you put a few

medjool dates in and lemon juice so that's nice so yeah Johnny Marr is coming on the podcast for a spot of lunch and we shall be talking

all things food family music guitars johnny mar coming up on table johnny mar you're here you're ready to be fed do you know much about the podcast have they prepped you you're basically going to be asked about food yeah i mean i know i know a little bit i deliberately try to avoid being too prepped because i like kind of being natural and winging it and just reacting i've learned over the years to try and do that so we can talk about city's accomplishments phil foden you look like you're in pain i appreciate that you've been very nice i look

like i'm in pain yeah Yeah, only a little bit. Well, we were like, we're going to get annihilated at the weekend. And then Rashid scored. I was kind of pleased it was three-one. No, I get that. You know how it goes. Can I get you anything to drink apart from water? I've got lots of things. Have you?

Do you have juice? I've got apple juice, orange juice. Wine? Well, I don't drink. Talk about that if you want. Do you not drink? No, I'll have orange juice, please. Okay. That'd't drink. Talk about that if you want. Do you not drink? No, I'll have orange juice, please. OK.

That'd be great. Just a bit of vitamin C. No, I'm a very kind of enthusiastic teetotaler. Are you? Yeah. Is that because you used to drink... You're looking at me a bit weird there. Is that because you used to drink so much?

Well, that's usually... No, because it looked like a really good idea. Instead of it being that I'm giving something up. Yeah, you embrace it. I actually gave myself the gift of being a teetotaler and it's brilliant. I love it. Usually journalists particularly make a big deal of it because, oh, I suppose you've got to talk to me about something.

But a lot of assumptions come with it, like, you know, because you don't drink. And I understand that. And generally people assume, like, that in the 80s, like, I'd sort of hung my children off the roof with Ozzy Osbourne. I'm like, well, I did a bit of that. But they've got that, you know, my drinking drugs health thing, but it isn't that.

It's like a much more positive thing. So when did you give up? Well, it was about 20-odd years ago. I got to a point, because I had two mates who were, one of them had been in AA and another one was very anti-AA but was into running and all of that. And I just thought, that looks really good. They both looked really, like, younger than their years and they weren't waking up in the morning

hating themselves for saying some stupid shit the night before. And I thought, that looks really good. So I'm a great taker-upper of things. In psychology, it's called a petitive thing there's aversive thinking which is i will avoid i'm going to start and then there's a petitive thinking which as in i will have the appetite for oh it's interesting though yeah very and but i didn't realize that what i was doing was called a petitive thinking i wasn't that clever i just went i'm very i just thought i didn I just didn't see it as giving up something.

I thought of it as giving myself the gift of, and it worked. I got really into it and started running marathons and everything, like flipping Forrest Gump. I know you were a footballer and you had to choose between football and, so who were you playing for?

Were you in an academy? City Juniors I played for. City Juniors. The youth team it was. City Youth Team. till i was about 15 and then i got yeah i got offered an apprenticeship for forest forest but i know i was actually at this moment in my house where i got in from a game but i had been playing not a show but i've been with my mates we used to rehearse a lot when i got out of the flipping rehearsal room and on

the saturday night i've been playing and and I used to wear eyeliner and all this. It was like 1978. And so I'd been with my band, which is what I did all the time, and my girlfriend, who's now my wife. And so I played the game quite as I often did with last night's eyeliner on, right? So I used to get kicked quite a lot so I came in from the match on the Sunday playing for the Sunday league team and I came into the house and the two guys

from Forest were there but I actually have a guitar because I've been rehearsing the night before so I actually walked in with my guitar and with my football boots in a bag and all of that so it was kind of almost like a symbolic thing really and um you know obviously i was amazed it was to get an opportunity to to have an apprenticeship but it was a bit of a no-brainer well i'm in a band and i'm not seeing my mom what did your dad think i can't believe this guy he's in he's a bigger idiot than i think he is but well the thing about it as well was that i'd already played with a couple of guys who ended up being pro this was when i was a kid and i saw played with a couple of guys who ended up being pro. This was when I was a kid. Who were they?

And I saw one was David Bardsley who ended up playing for QPR and he got a couple of England caps. A guy called Gary Blissett who ended up playing for Wimbledon. And there was a couple of guys who ended up playing for City, like apprentices. And I twigged at about 14, 15, that their intensity about playing, so when we used to practice and be trained,

and their intensity was like there, and I just liked running around and having fun. Which position did you play? Were you a defender? Right wing. But then your intensity with playing the guitar was up there. Yeah, exactly. So what I had for playing the guitar and forming the band,

I did a thing for, it was at Arena, I think, recently with Jack Grealish, where I interviewed him. Did you? And it was when he was going through a bit of a slump, his slump last season, I think. And we got chatting and he was so great. You know, he is what you think he is. He's so disarming because he's just so open.

He looks lovely. He's a really, really nice guy. He's a lovely guy. And we got chatting about it, but I think he was surprised that it's not the first time I've had this conversation with a footballer where my experience, teenage experience, was much like theirs.

In other words, I understand what it takes, but what we have in common, and I mentioned this to him, I was like, if you grew up in the UK, I don't know whether it was the same for you, Jesse, but I have stood at a bus stop on a Thursday night or Wednesday night and a Tuesday night in the rain, getting wet with my guitar case at 15, 16,

or, you know, getting on buses and all of that. When my pals are getting ready to go to the pub or having fun, I mean, this is back in the early 80s, late 70s, so the world's different now. But looking at that from the outside, from the footballer's point of view, that's them making a sacrifice, not going to the pub, not drinking, being disciplined,

going to training, standing in the cold, whatever. And I did that as a guitar player in all these bands I was in getting on two buses to go to rehearsals in the Red Light District to Manchester when I was 14 and all that but I loved it so now I'm an older person I can see it was a sacrifice but at the time

I didn't want to be in the pub with my mates I want to know how your girlfriend who's now your wife, how many years have you been together? Over 40? Yeah, since 1979. Did she ever say, Johnny, can you just not go to rehearsal

because I would really like you to take me out tonight? No, she was the reverse. She was like, well, Angie, I suppose it's a long story, but when we met, I was 15, she was 40, and I was kind of like, I am a guitar player who is going to be in a band and I'm going to be a musician, I'm going to be a guitar player.

And she was like, that sounds good. I'll be a guitar player's girlfriend. And the thing about that is that, what I always say, that she made me brave, you know, and that mission walking around council estates, because we did a lot of that because there was nowhere to go and didn't really, went through periods of, I didn't really get along with my parents

and it was mostly my fault. But we were kicking around on a 70s council estate in Manchester with, like, just dreams. And that's so much easier to accomplish when you've got your soulmate with you at 15 imagine without it I would have just been doing it all on my own and would have been much more difficult but when you've got someone who's who is with you on that and really believes in you and he's super super smart and then and that's it's bit that's been the way it's been through then it was through the smiths and through the smith split and they're there and all the

bands have been in and to this day you know you've got that i've been very very very very lucky you're in ardwick so i was 10 i grew up no i moved out of ardwick when i was 10 and then when you were 10 but you brought but that isn't that where the gallagher's were as well ardwick well noel was born like same place i was which is levin's? Well, Noel was born in the same place I was, which is Levenseam. Yeah, we were born in exactly the same place. We've got so much in common, Noel and myself. Irish families, Mancunian Irish, yeah. You're his idol, aren't you?

I'm actually one of his really close mates. I inspired him. I won't say idol, but... And now you're good friends. But I think even he tries to look like you a I mean and now you're good friends but I mean he tries to look like you a bit well you know

it's a guitar playing thing if you're from Manchester and you smoke pot and you like and you like 60s music you kind of tend to look it's a bit of a it's a bit of a kind of

uniform in a way but I just got there before him because I'm older so what was the first band you were in the first the first band

I was in was called Paris Valentinos. Oh, I quite like that. What a lovely name. Well, it was very new wave. Oh, it's fancy. It is.

I know, it's very fancy. Imagine if that was a cake. The Paris Valentinos. Yeah, it tastes delicious. Well, it was all like... Makes you sound handsome. Like you're all gorgeous looking men. Well, we weren't bad.

But I started my first band, I wrote in my best mate as a singer when I was 11, he was called Chris Milne, he was great. So this might sound fanciful, but my priority was to do what I'm doing now from being 11. I always was like, where's the other other usually a guy but some i've worked with so many women as well but so i would wrote my best mate in so my first band is at 11 but the reason i bring it up is because i actually was very serious about it i look back now and i was like flipping heck i was like really serious it was the main thing i was doing you know more than certainly more than homework

what about school? which school were you at? well I was at I was at Sacred Heart Primary School and so when I moved from the inner city to the I don't know whether this is interesting

but when I moved from the inner city to the suburbs for me there was a massive I think within shores of the suburbs see yeah see

why are you from the suburbs mum? I think I'm nearer in than you actually cheat them out god you're flipping out cheat them out just make sure my wallet is don't take this the wrong way but no because it was so the inner city where there was me just me and my sister then my younger brother was just about to come along i was very close to my sister she's 11 months younger than me so we're called irish twins we're now and my mum and dad were still are irish they're both very young when i was born so we grew up how old were they 18 i think so i had a very close relationship with my mum because she was always always like a young woman right but when we moved from the inner city which I remember very well that being eight or nine or whatever to this Wythenshawe, Wythenshawe is considered quite a rough place but to me and my

sister it was like moving to Beverly Hills. I want to know you had your sister 11 months apart you had your younger brother? Yeah he arrived about when I was about nine yeah. And when you were eating around the dinner table were you listening to music and what were you eating? Well, that's a good question because we didn't eat around the dinner table. The house was very working class, very 70s, very Irish, which was great. What it wasn't was that some of my pals, when they had what was called their tea, they'd get together, maybe in a haphazard form but they'd get together we're in my house my little brother be crawling around with his toys on the floor

my sister would be upstairs crimping her hair playing chic really really loud and she my mum would go what do you want for your tea i have a cheese toasty so my mum would like be like talking that she's trying to sort the baby out and And he'd be like, what's John having? And I'd be like, well, I'm having a cig. I'd be sort of sitting there waiting for a band to come on the telly and they'd be like, have a baked potato with some beans on. So my mum would be just like, so I'd get mine. A calf. She'd be doing that, a calf.

Yeah, I'd get mine. And then 20 minutes later, my sister maybe would want hers and then my little brother Egan would feed him. And so it was quite, it was like brilliant sort of chaos, really. The only time we sat around the table as a family to eat together was on Christmas Day. And I never knew any different, really. It was great.

Did you like sitting around the table? Did it feel quite odd? It felt very formal and a bit odd. I mean, I come from a really amazing loving very tight family but that's just the way we did it could you eat something because i've i've made vegan food that's amazing thank you yeah you don't have to have a lot no i've got a couple of salads i've got some soup you can have a bit of everything or a little bit of nothing i'll try a bit of everything a little bit of everything okay thank you i'm gonna get the stuff together. You two can keep on talking. What did your parents do?

Did they work? Yeah. My mum did a lot of different jobs of all kinds of stuff. You know, sometimes she worked in a newsagent. I remember that. And then she worked sort of doing admin for Barclays Bank. My dad, all his life, worked putting gas pipes in the road. So when he used to come in, he would be black,

covered in dirt from head to toe. And he loved that and he was great at it. He would go out at four to six in the morning in his van and he'd pick up a few of his pals and they'd go out to Liverpool or Oldham or whatever and he'd dig the road up and so he was a strong

hard working very very quiet broody guy to be around But he liked music as well He absolutely loved me, he still does both my parents are still around I'm very lucky for that they were quite hardy country they're from Kildare He absolutely loved me. He still does. Both my parents are still around. I'm very lucky for that.

You know, they were quite hardy country. They're from Kildare in Southern Ireland. How gorgeous. And so they were never, like, neither of them smoked. Were they both born there? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then came over? Yeah, they came over. They met in Kildare and they came over here for work.

My mum's from a family of 14. Oh! And my dad's from a family of 14. Oh! And my dad's from a family, I think it's five or six. All those cousins. How many cousins have you got? You must have 100. Well, I was one of the first of the kids born. And then, honestly, it's like on a weekly basis, all these little babies, his cousins have sprouted up around me.

And, you know, Dermot and Declan and Amy, all these Irish kids, you know. I'd sort of... I didn't hear an English accent until I was about seven. So do you cook? Who does the cooking at home? Or is it still a baked potato with baked beans? If it was left up to me, well, I've been very fortunate.

A few areas of my life this goes through. Because Angie and I have been together, and she's got a really good cook from being kids. Well, actually, when she met me, I was so independent. I cooked. She reminded me of this before I came here today. I was like a very independent teenager, 13, 14, 15. There's another thing.

It's a real Irish thing, that. I went to my first ever show when I was 12. When I wrote my autobiography, I did that in 2016, I was doing a lot of research and I was thinking about my first ever gig, which was this band called Slaughter and the Dogs in Manchester. And I checked the date and everything and I realised I was 12.

And I remember going and walking back on my own and getting in at about whatever, half 12 at night. And I phoned my mum and I went at about whatever, half 12 at night. And I phoned my mum and I went, Mum, do you remember when I went to that punk gig? It was in 1976. And she's, no, no, not really. I went, do you know, I was 12.

And she went, yeah. I was like, what are you thinking? She went, well, you knew what you were doing. I went, 12? So anyway, by the time I met Angie, when I was 15, I had quite a lot of street smarts about me. I'd had a couple of part-time jobs. I was expert at ducking out of school when I didn't need to be there.

Thank you, Jessie. Wow. You don't like coriander? No, I don't. But you do... It makes me angry. OK, well, I've avoided coriander, but there is parsley, sage, rosemary, things like that. Beautiful. Thank you very much. That looks amazing. OK, well, I've avoided coriander, but there is parsley, sage, rosemary, things like that. Beautiful, thank you very much. That looks amazing. OK, well, we've got some salads as well.

When did you move out of home? When I was 15. 15? Yeah. I went to live with my best mate, who then, a few years later, became the bass player in the Smiths' Sandy Rourke. His parents had separated

and left the house in Ashton-on-Mersey. So you were living on your own? No, me and four boys. Bloody hell. It was amazing. You have collaborated with so many people, Pet Shop Boys, Brian Ferry, Talking Heads. Yeah.

Who fed you the best out of that lot? Did anyone feed you? I know you were making music, making brilliant stuff, but did anyone put on a good spread? Hans Zimmer. Oh, come on, then. Tell me about Hans Zimmer. Hans Zimmer's amazing.

Well, when you work with Hans... Yeah. So he'll either... There'll either be a chef in the studio. I like that. It's good, eh? Yeah. So when I first started working with Hans in 2010,

I don't know how long... do you know about cafe gratitude? I am fulfilled. I am satiated, yes. All of that. I am full of shit. Exactly. Cafe attitude. Cafe attitude.

I thought of opening something along the lines of that. You were thinking that's completely the opposite. Oh my God, I love that idea. Where someone's really kind of a bit arsey. It's like, I am narky. I am hungover. I am this. And everyone's got to have a Manchester accent.

Call it cafe attitude. So for anybody who's listening, Cafe Gratitude is a place that's very pleased with itself in LA, which actually was one of the first places to do really good vegan food. Is that the one in Venice? They've got a few, I think. And it is good. I've been with Hannah.

But anyway, they're just really pleasing themselves. Okay, so you're having, this is roast parsnip and pear soup. Wow. With a kind of sage and rosemary, cashew, palm. I couldn't give you that vegan parmesan. It's so disgusting. So I've got like a cashew thingy. Anyway, it's all vegan i

wasn't aware that you actually cooked the food on this podcast winner she's done it this time usually it's lenny but she she's scared of vegetarianism okay yeah maybe i might try and maybe address redress the balance for you you have to tell me what what your ideas are about it well you've talked about going vegan when you brought out meat is murder yeah so what happened so angie was vegetarian anyway right and so so where i was at 14 15 full disclosure i so i was very independent very streetwise my life was hanging out with older people usually older guys because i was there was where i grew up there was a lot of older lads who were in of playing the guitar and forming bands and

because that was i was so single-minded and passionate and it was all i wanted i won't say ambitious like obviously that comes into it you have to be ambitious but i just never saw any other like it was a vocation i never never... There wasn't a plan B. This is amazing. Thank you. Really delicious. Really good. Thank you.

But to get back to the food thing, at 14 and stuff, I started to... I learnt about sagging off school. And I used to go to Central Library and I used to do stuff. And what it was was that a lot of my older mates had already left school, see? Yeah.

They'd left at whatever, 16. And I'd be with them in the evening and we'd be playing at my mates my mate a lot of activity happened in this middle class boy's house because he was middle class his parents were quite liberal and they it was we almost had this like salon if you like and a bunch of lads were really serious about all the rock music that was going on at the time. And we discussed it and we played it and we learned to play it. And then when punk come along, we've learned to play like television and Blondie. And we were really getting our chops up.

And they were older than me and I was still at school. So I'm there with my tie on. And the next day they were going to hang out with Virgin Records or they were going to go and get a ticket to go and see Lou Reed or whatever. And I just went, well, what am I doing sitting in a class when I'm like you guys? So that was why I was sagging off school. I wasn't wandering around, like, you know, hating school.

I just was like, I'm done now. And so the school sort of accepted my resignation, if you like. But I had a lot of time during the day and I was practicing and playing, listening to records and waiting for Angie to come out of school because she went to school across from me and I was really really super into smoking pot because I was from Manchester and I was a guitar player it's the law and I was good at it and part so me and my mates would be getting stoned in the afternoon like between us putting our resources together and listening to music and taking it very seriously because getting stoned was part of it.

And so I learned to make a really, you know, knock up a really great omelette and beans and sausage and dead, dead quick. So when Angie met me, she was like, this guy, like, he can smoke in the house. He can iron. He can sew up his jeans. He can turn flares into straight legs.

And he can cook. Because she was 14. flares into straight legs and he can cook because she was 14 she was like wow my hero but that was the last time I ever bothered cooking because I was around people and to this day so my son for instance how many kids have you got?

I've got two, my daughter's just about to be 30 she's a Jedi in publishing and podcasting. And my son is a really great musician, really good guitar player and singer and songwriter. And he works with Hans Zimmer mostly and puts out his own albums. But he is super vegan and he's an amazing cook. So he makes everything from scratch.

So if he's going to make cashew milk or almond milk, he'll make it from almonds. He'll make his own pesto and then up and up and up. He's an amazing cook. So I'm really spoiled from being 15. The last time I was like doing that myself was when I was a 15-year-old stoner going, right, I'll cook up some munchies.

And then I got this amazing girlfriend who's very mature for her age and stuff. And then we became inseparable from the word go but there was a little bit in between this gives a little about my food history how far I've come but because I was really just bothered about working in a clothes shop to make money for guitar strings and get clothes trying to form a band, avoid school, avoid the authorities, and my girlfriend. And when I was working clothes shops, I used to just live off little bottles of lemonade and chocolate.

And then at the end of the day, there used to be a thing in the late 70s, early 80s, people of a certain vintage might know this, in the north anyway, called Spud You Like. Oh, like Jacket Potato and that shop. Yeah, Spud You Like. We used to have it too didn't we did you it was brilliant so when angie not long after she met me she just i used to just

live off lemonade and jacket and jacket potato i feel like jacket potatoes are coming up in every podcast recently did you um bring your children up vegan vegetarian yeah yeah my daughter is meat is murder. Were you vegan or vegetarian at that point? Vegetarian. So yeah, what happened, Angie was vegetarian. We didn't make a big deal of it. The point of all that preamble was food was just something that just had, was like a necessity that just had to be done with as quickly as possible.

Right. So I could crack on with the important business. Has that changed? Massively. Okay, changed? Massively. Okay, right. Massively. Yeah, I've just been out eating in the Maldives in a restaurant where you have to enter it via a rope bridge.

It's my favourite place in the world. That culinary experience, walking over the rope bridge into this, essentially a restaurant that is like a tree house. Wow. And just it being done really well, really delicate, super nice portions and everything. I've come a long way from... From...

Sigs and spuds, you like. So Hans Zimmer does catering. Yeah. And it's good. Yeah. Did your son encourage him to do vegan catering now? Is that what it is all the time? No, but my son's brought to do vegan catering now does like is that what it is all the time or no he's but my son's brought to the the live crew and you imagine it's a really big production with a lot of

people i think my son's turned quite a lot of people onto veganism i think so angie was vegetarian meat is murder comes out you're like can't really be eating meat that's right and actually just before in fact because i find that that people in some ways people almost got into this when i was got super into running people almost fetishize food in a sort of unhealthy way to the point where they almost put all these rules on and don't enjoy it you know like they i don't know it's a complicated thing people probably know more than i did but because i was so not bothered it was quite easy in a way as well to become uh-huh to become vegetarian because it was a bit of a no brainer angie was vegetarian and i was sort of anyway like so if angie was not you know for i wasn't going to eat meat if angie but i just thought oh she's fine she doesn't like it so

i'll have whatever you know sort of veggie pie or I'll have some soup or something like that this was when I was younger yeah early days of the Smiths so it wasn't like a major big drama I think that's what I'm trying to say

because people it's a little different now but 25 years ago people would ask me about being vegetarian and it was almost like I'd sort of it was like you

and Paul McCartney I was in some weird cult and it was more difficult when you were travellingney. I was in some weird cult. And it was more difficult when you were travelling. So I hadn't really seen much of the world when I first started out in the Smiths. But going, especially around Europe, Spain, I remember in Germany, it was risotto, risotto, risotto, you know. The world's completely different now

and a lot of people enjoy vegetarian and vegan food for the experience of it. But all the Smiths are vegetarian. I think a couple of the guys used to have the nip off and have a sly burger now and again. Can I get you a plate and would you like any salads? I want a little bit of salad thank you. But I don't want to, are you finished with your

soup? Yeah. Okay. Woof that down. You don't have to take much. We've got a tiny pud after as well, which I don't know if it's going to be any good. My mum's like, help yourself. Do you want to put it on for us, Mum? Should I put it on? Thanks.

This is shiitake mushrooms with a bit of pearl barley and radicchio. Wow. What do you think? Do you like it? Delicious. This is great. Did you do it all right?

No, yeah. I mean, today I did it all, but mum's usually... Between the two of you yeah yeah we do it yeah is that and um just a little bit yeah and and then this is just um thank you broccoli under the grill and then it's got like a nuts and medjool dates and kind of yeah i mean i this is how me and my family live right perfect thank you is otolenghi your god? It's my new religion, yeah. Otolenghi, the church of Otolenghi. And Anna Jones.

Do you like Anna Jones? I don't know Anna Jones. She's fab. She's got a really good new book. I'll show it to you. It's great. You know, one of the things that I noticed when I became a vegetarian, it's a little esoteric this, but I'm that way inclined. I'm not trying to, you know, prove any big point or whatever,

but I started to notice that I actually started to like and relate to animals much more when I stopped eating them now that's maybe that before that i didn't really relate to them very much i am aware of that because i was such a inner city kid and as you know and essentially my relationship with animals was that dog looks like it might want to bite me oh yes yes, it does run. Right. Because we're so, you know, urban, if you like, in a city. It wasn't like I didn't get much opportunity to actually walk around fields and look at dogs. I wasn't that interested, frankly. So did you get a pet?

Oh, I mean, I've got, I've had dogs for years. I've got big dogs. What's their name? One's called Indy and the other one's called Buzz. But the one I had before that was called Riff. That's a really good dog name. And I had before that was called Riff. That's a really good dog name. And the one before that was called Boogie, and then I had Otis and Curtis.

I absolutely love animals. A bit of that's because Angie's like the dog whisperer. You speak so fondly of Angie. It is so gorgeous. I really hope that my husband... I've been with my husband since we were 18, and I really don't think he's talking about me like you're talking about Angie. I don't think he's talking about me like you're talking

about Angie I don't think many people are you've been together for over 40 years and it sounds like you've just you just got together and you're just so excited about you you're a door you adore her well you know I do yeah but we're kind of like in a way though we're two halves of the same coin I don't mean to try and make this sound like I love someone but no you know some relationships some people are the opposite. Obviously, maybe that's even mostly the case. But because we met so young and we were on this mission, maybe we were alike anyway.

I mean, we do have our differences. But because it's been so long and we've been so, we've maybe sort of morphed into the same entity in a way, if you like. I think that's maybe why. Is that good for your kids or annoying for them? Because you'll always agree on the same thing. You won't be like ask your mother because it'll be the same oh no no listen we've got that we've got that normal dynamic that every household has which is like you know she yeah she's still a i'm still a bloke and she's still a woman i get played plenty you know i mean i'm yeah oh yeah classic dad okay dad business okay but i think but i think it's good for the kids, really.

I think the kids are saying that we're really tight. And they must see that as such a positive example of relationships. Where did you get married? San Francisco, in the Church of the Not Too Bothered. It was great. Church of the Not Too Bothered. On tour? Yeah.

How old were you? 85, so I would have been like 22 something like that 21 85 we got married how many people were in the room the band and the crew and you know you all know but because we sort of just did it impromptu like we decided two days before oh we've got a day off why don't we get married very romantic all the crew particularly back then you know like they all sort of rocked up like with stubble and and i think one of them was wearing like a tour t-shirt inside out under a jacket you know they had no you know like what do you mean we're going to a wedding i remember one of them had like tried to iron his collar and it was they were all it was all very sort of i like that that's haphazard. That's so sweet. Yeah, well, the Smiths were famously a little unconventional

and sort of wayward. We didn't have a lot of organisation. Me and Angie were organising it and we were young. So was Morrissey your best man? He was, actually, yeah. Did he do a good speech? There was no speech involved or anything. It was pretty unconventional.

And loose and bohemian, you know, which is kind of what we've got in our bones, really. Have you ever renewed your vows? I think it's time, Johnny. To do a do in the Maldives. In the Maldives. It's a scoop. I just think maybe you should.

Wow. Don't you think it's time? Celebrate those 40 years. You know what guys? We renew them every day. Oh my God. Please. Got myself out of that one. Oh my word. You're going on tour.

Is it with the orchestra or without the orchestra? This year is without the orchestra but I think next year I'm going to take the orchestra out. Peter, the big Johnny Marr Smiths fan in the corner, went to see your gig in Manchester. Oh yeah. Travelled in the pissing rain. I think all the trains were cancelled, weren't they, or something?

Weren't they all cancelled? Anyway, he got there, said it was one of the best gigs he's ever been to. Is that right? Yeah, we loved it so much at Christmas. Oh, thanks so much. That's good to hear. Great. So, I mean, you're going to be busy for the next year. Touring in April, doing festivals. And then the States.

Oh, you're doing the States. Yeah. Do you like touring in the States? Yeah, I like touring, yeah. When are you going to be there? I'm going to be there end of September, October. Oh, that's the best time to tour there as well. The fall.

Weirdly, I didn't like touring until I was in my 40s. I did all years and years of it. I just didn't like it. Why do you think? What changed for you? Well, being a frontman changed it. Okay. Not because, oh, suddenly I'm getting more adoration,

but because one of the reasons I didn't like it was because I was so obsessed with being in the studio and making records. I was that guy, first one in in the morning, last one out at night. I'll fix the outro. All these different people I was working with, I had my own studio and all that. It was exactly what I wanted to do.

But I found that when I started writing my own lyrics and fronting the band and everything, quite rightly, I don't think there's a precedent for a singer setting the microphones up, being the first in the morning, there in the morning, being the last at night. I don't think the engineer slash precedent for a singer setting the microphones up, being the first in the morning, there in the morning, being the last at night. I don't think the engineer slash producer makes a very good singer. So it's a whole long thing. But because I've been in bands for so long,

running bands from being 15 and everything, I know that what's important when you're in the studio is for the singer, are you feeling like singing? And have you got the third verse sorted out? You haven't just pasted the first verse and the second verse together to make a third verse, are you feeling like singing? And have you got the third verse sorted out? You haven't just pasted the first verse and the second verse together to make a third verse. That's important. Now, when I started doing my solo stuff,

because I've got all that experience, I went into my own studio with my engineer or co-producer. I made a decision on that day, don't ask me about reverbs, don't ask me whether we're going to have the ribbon mics on the overheads. This was all stuff that I really loved because I know how things should be. You needed to just perform. And get the lyrics right and have an overview

and literally take five steps back from the mixing desk and be the front man and the singer. Because usually before that, I was that guy, heading the speakers, no no they're editing this that and the other and as well as playing the guitar must have been really hard to relinquish that control and you must have had to get the right people in for you to feel that you could do that and kind of yeah feel like you could be the front man be the be able to relax and not worry that well the reverb isn't right It was a very pragmatic decision,

and I knew it would be good for the group. A bit circuitous, circuitous, whatever the word is, going off on the tangent, but this is why I ended up liking touring so much, because my perspective of the studio changed. Like every good frontman, I want to be out of there. I don't want to be in there all day. The Cazares love being in the studio for 15 hours.

They'll be in there all the time. The producer will. And I made a shift. It just happened that part of taking care of the business of fronting the band. Because what I was going to say was that the great front people that I've worked with, and my mind always goes to Chrissie Hynde,

there's a thing they do for their band. When you're in a band and you've got a great singer not just a great singer but a great front man or front woman it's not just about standing up at the microphone and being in the middle it's about leading everyone on stage it's about the vibe in rehearsals

I saw that for years and years and I was clocking it and I was like I've got to be that for my band or I've got to not be like that for my band. There is that side of it. That's the other side. Yeah. Memo to self, do not do that.

Don't be a dick. Do not do, don't be exactly as much as I can. So, in other words, I really honour that role. So what was Chrissie, why was she so impressive? Was it seeing her in the rehearsal rooms or on stage I'm just getting tips well the very first thing was

because the first thing I did was I would go into a rehearsal room and see her in the rehearsals and she sings in rehearsals like she's singing in front of 300,000 people that really helps doesn't it because then it feels like you're taking it seriously and then everyone else wants to up their game of performing, so it's not like they're just kind of noodling.

Because it can get a bit like that sometimes. And that word ennui, you know, like French word, can get a bit low energy. Is that boring? Low energy. So Chrissie, even though she comes out of the punk period and she'll say, oh, I'm not such a great guitar guitarist she is and um i just get up there and do it the first time i stood next to her in the rehearsal room she was not dicking about and she also loves beat she loves the business of being

in a band that's one of the things that she and i have in common she loved the role of she has the thing about the guitarist is this is a certain kind of role so I was like well I can be that and I am that and so we had this great relationship and just the way you know she's the leader of the gang really without making a big deal of it you just think so when you walk out on stage back then this was just after I'd left the Smiths I was 20 I think maybe still only 23 when I left the Smiths. Right. 23? Yeah. When did the Smiths form? How old were you?

Just 19. So it was like five years. So maybe I was 24, just 24 when I left. But what it was, was I'd never played in front of 100,000 people before. But because I'd joined the Pretenders, we were on the road with U2, opening for U2 on the Joshua Tree tour. So, I mean, the Smiths were big, but we weren't playing in front of 100,000 people.

And as we walked up the stage, the leader, Chrissie, looked completely fearless. And she was like, so it's a really good feeling when you're 24 and you're the leader of the gang. It's sort of like, I got this, follow me. And I kind of went, that's the way to lead a band that's the way to do that's so cool where are you looking forward to eating on your tour is there one particular place that you will absolutely not miss out on apart from cafe gratitude well i do think that american america has got a you know like a lot of things good and bad it's ahead of the got, like a lot of things, good and bad.

It's ahead of the UK in quite a lot of things. And with veganism and vegetarianism, I lived in Portland, Oregon. Portland, Oregon's an amazing place. So I think I'm looking forward to Portland because God knows what they've got there. Why did you live there? I joined a band called Modest Mouse in 2005 and they were based there. And it was an amazing experience. Best time of my life.

Did you take your kids over? On and off. Eventually the family plotted up there for a bit, yeah. Why do you think it was the best time of your life? What made it so special? Well, Modest Mouse, with me, were a seven-piece band and they were a really unusual, eccentric, amazing... Each member of the band was super creative in their own right.

The music was good. The music was also successful. It was always good. It'd get you out of the house. You know, the album went to number one, which first guitar record for years that had gone to number one. And we were playing really great shows. And it was a new world for me.

My kids got to be in their teens, 15, 16. I'd started getting pretty fit i mean i was i was running sometimes around 18 miles before a gig do you still run yeah around this morning no i wish but no three or four times a week and how long did you do this morning 10 miles 10 miles yeah how long did it take this morning? 10 miles. 10 miles? Yeah. How long did it take you? About an hour and 20, so I'm slowing up. Are you ready for a cup of tea in a little vegan chocolate pot?

I also will move in. Yeah, I mean, you have to kind of do as you're told. I'm now leading you through this culinary. This is the best, I won't say interview, but I've ever done.

Oh, that's so nice. It's not've ever done. Oh, that's so nice. It's not really an interview. That's what I mean, that's why I said that. Can't do that. Your last supper, we always ask everybody this. You're not going to die, you're going on a desert island. Well, you know, at the start, I want to say, over the years, whenever I've got...

I mean, you guys might be informing me, but... You're going to take the piss now. But tofu, tofu in like a tamari sauce kind of thing. Do you know what I'm talking about, Jessie? Tofu in tamari sauce. Or soy sauce, that kind of thing. Oh, what, when it's in Japanese. Exactly, yeah, and little spring onions.

Yes, it's delicious. It's Japanese, that's it. Wobbly, wobbly.'s japanese it's very very light almost silken tofu yeah your face yeah i know her face is going funny tofu is not high on my agenda this is so nice so because you you feel like you're having a starter and you just doesn't wreck you you know it's pretty super it's super light and it's really, really tasty. Okay. I mean, also, the other side, if I'm feeling, you know, like if I can't get that, I like a similar vibe is mozzarella and tomato.

You know, if you go to an Italian restaurant. Yeah. Mozzarella and tomato. Buffalo mozzarella and tomato. But you're not allowed to eat that because it's not vegan. I, you know, honestly I'm definitely vegetarian. I haven't had meat for 40 years but I can

bend the rules for a bit of mozzarella. What about a little omelette? Are you going to shove an omelette in there too? Occasionally I'd have a little omelette. Do you? For running, yeah. Yeah, I bet. For protein. I'm strictly vegetarian. So those are your two starters? No, okay, yeah, kind of both of those. Yeah.

And, you know, I'm not going to overthink it. Thank you, Jessie. I'm not... Well, I'll have some kind of penne with pesto because if you put pesto on anything, I'll eat it. But that's got parmesan in. Yeah, again. Yes, he's going vegetarian.

I'll look the other way. Lenny, I'll look the other way. I'm not that strict. All right, darling. But would you have pesto at home? Yeah. You see, Jess? So if I...

I could have put parmesan in that pesto. But Niall makes... He makes amazing pesto, and that won't have dairy in it. So I'm pretty sure anything can be done without dairy. I just want to know which kind of cheese substitute he uses. If he does use a substitute, or he just uses... He makes his own, Jess. I think he'll do it out of cashews or something.

Yeah, cashew nuts. Yeah, cashews, yeah. Yeah, he'll do it out of cashews, yeah. Is he Niall, Irish Niall or Sheik Niall? He's named after Niall Rogers from Sheik, yeah. So he's N-I-L-E? N-I-L-E, yeah. Okay.

The river, yeah. As opposed to Niall? Niall Rogers calls him his God's soul son, which is their call. God's soul son. God's soul son. Yeah. Have you met Niall, Jessie? Have you met him? I have met him.

Yeah, I've met him too. He once asked me out. But he doesn't remember that. Yeah, I did tell him that. Jessie, I was with another bloke at the time. I think he's asked out a few people, hasn't he? Yeah. Has he?

Where was that? I went to see him perform, and the guy I went with was in advertising. It was something to do with that, and that's how I met him. You didn't fancy it? Kind of, yeah. So this is...

No, I'll ask around. Didn't surprise me. He hasn't done the podcast yet. No. Well, maybe he gets along. Friends reunited. There's some oatly cream if you want it. I'm going to just...

I'll tell him I'm out of here. I'll say she's still got it. Yeah. Still got it. Yeah. She's still got it. Okay, let's just check. Tell me what the cream is like.

Don't have the cream. Why? The chocolate's fine. Why not the cream? Because the cream is not... It doesn't need it it I don't think okay did we get the main?

the main I'm just going to have some penne with pesto penne with pesto okay it just delivers for me every time it just hits the spot

yeah it does and also because of the running thing yeah what's in this? wow cocoa yeah cocoa powder

sugar yeah oat milk corn flour and vanilla essence and then dark chocolate. Very good. It's a little bit like those ones that you get for your kids, like, you know, the little chocolate pots, like goo or something. Like, it's like... Really? Yeah, it's lovely.

But it is, it's homemade and it works. No, it tastes... Very clever, Jess. It's beautiful. Oh, thank you, Johnny. You're so sweet. You're so sweet. You're so lovely.

I didn't get your pudding. Did we get your pudding? We didn't get your pudding? I'm going to... This is really basic. So my main course, pesto and some really good penne pasta with pine nuts. I'm not a savage. But it's going to be some well-done vegan. It has a vegan cheesecake.

Have you found a good vegan cheesecake anywhere? Yeah. Where? From the deli near my house. Before we let you go, Johnny, I really have enjoyed chatting to you. You are such a great storyteller. You signed my book. You signed Mars Guitars.

How many guitars are you up to now that you own? I think I bought maybe two since that book came out and in the book I said I've got 132

so I've got 134 officially where are they I'm not going to tell you you might have some I don't know you guys but it's like someone go up there

and rob me she's from Flipping Cheating Hill Johnny Marr thank you so much for coming and spending time with us

and we can't wait to see you in concert and read the book and listen to the best of I mean you're an overachiever to be honest

and can I tell you for a vegan I'm a little bit in love now oh oh oh I'll take that

I'll take that all day long yeah fantastic thank you thanks guys I love Johnny Marr I'm in love with Johnny Marr

well I feel like you both had a very wonderful Mancunian connection. Yeah. I think he was even flirting with you, Mother. Yeah. What a lovely man. He's delightful. The best stories. I don't think food was top of his priority.

But he was incredibly complimentary about my vegan food. Should we talk about my vegan food, Mum? It was amazing. Yeah, tell me more. That soup was off the scale that shout out to hands hungry on um instagram who is oh my god just start letting me be your ambassador the bold bean uh company is in their cookbook but um it was did that have beans in it have white beans yeah pears and white beans and parsnnips. Oh, that was delicious. So I won't be needing that cauliflower soup that I did as well.

Freeze it, darling. Oh, yeah. For the next vegan. Oh, yeah. That's such a good idea. That's a great idea. Johnny Marr is touring in April. He has Marr's guitars.

He's just given my daughter a plectrum. And he says if he sees it on eBay, he knows if it's going for £4.85, then he knows who sold it. So darling, you're not allowed to put that on eBay. Look at that. And he also has his best of album out, Spirit Power. I absolutely loved him

and I'm going to get him to do a lick on my new record, Don't Care. How cool is that? Yeah. Anyway, thanks for listening, everyone. We'll see you next week.