Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S16 Ep 35: Nisha Katona

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

It’s a foodie treat for you all this week as we have the most incredible chef, restauranteur and entrepreneur Nisha Katona joining us for lunch after travelling down from Birkenhead especially for an excellent meal made by mum. Nisha joins our ever growing list of guests from mum’s favourite programme, Great British Menu, and this episode really is such a treat. We learned about how Nisha created a national chain of restaurants (Mowgli), how her career started with her working as a barrister for 20 years, the very best tips and tricks for cooking Indian food (including a quick and easy prawn curry), her love of Hungarian cuisine, her unbelievable list of pet animals, plus we learn something truly shocking about English Mustard! Foodies, do not miss this ep, Nisha’s endless tips are incredible! Nisha’s Mowgli restaurant is in over 20 cities across the UK and her charity work with the Mowgli Trust continues to raise vital funds for communities across the UK & India. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners. We are here in Clapham. Post Mighty Hoopla. Well, Post Lenny's fantastically iconic entrance. Anyone that missed Mighty Hoopla at the weekend, it was my first ever UK headline show. And it was in Brockhall Park for Very Local and it's the most wonderful festival. It's a queer festival and it's just full the most wonderful festival it's a queer festival and it's just full of queer joy and it's very very fun i was very lucky to be headlining it and i thought the only place that that this could work um was it in the only place i don't know i don't

know if i've got a very diverse following okay so i feel like um you have a huge queer following, Mum. Do I? And so I thought what I would give the people at Mighty Hoopla was a little slice of Lenny. So Lenny introduced me, pulled the mic off Tia Coffey, winner of RuPaul's Drag Race. Was she a winner? Yeah.

I didn't even know. Yeah. I said you look gorgeous. Yeah, that's good. Anyway, and then you came out and you absolutely smacked it. Did I? And people were thrilled. Did I?

Yeah. I looked a bit gormless. I don't think you did. Someone sent me a picture of me up on the screen and I thought I looked gormless. I thought you gave kind of Delia Smith when she was like, come on, if you think you're hard enough. You know, she did that one in Norwich FC. It was giving Delia to me.

Oh, that wasn't what I was going for. I was going for Michael McIntyre. Really? Yeah. A little kind of funny and engaging. Okay, bugger off. Okay, well, anyway, thank you. It was amazing.

Thank you to everyone that watched and apologies to Catherine and Streatham Hill who put on the funniest tweet filming my closing song in her garden livid that there was still music and that she could hear it in Streatham I'm sorry she's very lucky she didn't even have to pay I know well I'm sorry to hear the great Jessie Ware you must come over for a cup of tea and I'll apologize and sing in your face instead. I'm sorry. But anyway, it was amazing. We had Beth Ditto, a podcast guest. This is the magic of this podcast.

Yeah. We get Beth Ditto on the podcast. I tell her about me being a bit of an Uber fan, jumping backstage. We develop a friendship, mainly because she loved the food. She loved you. I think she loved me. And then I can slide in the old DMs. I called in, I said, Beth, come on stage

and she killed it. She was fab. It was unbelievable. Very funny. She says she wants to be fed by us again. Okay, she can come. But enough about past guests. Can I just ask, anyone who's listening, what do people do for burns?

Cooking. Manuka. Culinary burns. I think manuka. I'm not walking around with honey on my arm, darling. It's like these manuka, they're like bandages. Oh, I'll get one. They're supposed to be for burns.

That's what I had when I... I keep on burning myself. That's what I do. Anyway. I'm at the door, darling. Okay. We've got someone I've been desperate to have for ages. You are so excited.

She's so beautiful. She's so clever. She's such a great cook. It's Nisha Katona. It's a pleasure to meet you. It is so nice to be here. You're like a big ball of wonderful joy and energy and you've brought your gorgeous daughter with you.

I have. And you've just come from Birkenhead. I have. That's where you come from. I was born in Lancashire, which is up in the north of England and Birkenhead is on the Wirral. Yeah. Oh, you're posh on the Wirral.

Oh, excuse me. Did you used to go to abasok no now that's seriously i feel so pathetically unposhed because i don't sail don't do any of that stuff you know i don't never mean to have a sock so i still feel i'm still trying to get into the middle classes lenny and i don't know how to do it and you still live where you grew up yeah so still in the same area because yeah oh is that where you live i live up there yeah oh my goodness i thought you lived in london no no i had i am sort of half of the time i'm down here so i've got a place down here as well because i'm i'm between the two all the time so i'm here sort of two three days a week so i've got restaurants

and they're up and down the country so many yeah yeah yeah so that's why and the truth is there are certain things that will always operate well so far are always operating outside of london so media is one of them do you know things like investment the banks are all down here so i do spend a lot of time you know wearing some of the hats down here but not the great british menu that's in the Midlands. You've had Ed on, haven't you? Oh, my life. And Tom. And Tom. They are like my brothers. I love them so much.

I'm just a bit jealous of Ed. She wants to be one of the guest judges. I would just like to be a guest once. You should be a main judge. So I think that the next theme should be podcasts. Then I could move in. There's only yours. Of course there is, Misha.

There's only yours. So basically, you'd shove Ed Gamble, who has an incredibly successful podcast, around food. Okay, sure. That's a cracking thing. It was a tricky theme. It was the Olympics and the Paralympics this year.

What incredible guest judges. I didn't watch it. No, don't worry about it. it was a tricky theme it was the olympics and the paralympics this year yeah what incredible guest judges i didn't watch it no don't worry about it sorry but i kind of feel like why am i not when it is the most it is one of the best i think it's one of the best cooking programs yeah first of all it's so inspiring and excellent people try so hard but i just think they're very inspiring chefs and I love watching them. And it's the camaraderie, isn't it? Well, it's really interesting because there's that whole genre of competition format that I'm not a massive fan of, to be honest, that sort of brutality and all of that and, you know, contrived competition. But what people love about that is the fact that

they're really encouraging and nurturing of each other. People revel in that. So as soon as it gets a bit edgy, it kicks off on Twitter. You know, how dare you raise your eyebrows at someone? Did you tut? Which is really... They do help each other. Yeah. But it kind of makes you think the zeitgeist is changing a bit, doesn't it?

It makes you think that people actually want to watch kind of brethren together, you know, chef brethren, as opposed to people having a go at each other. The food is extraordinary. it's extraordinary food and you get there at sort of seven well for me hair and makeup blowtorch sandpaper four hours i kid you not yeah and so you're in at like five o'clock in the morning and then you start eating about half eight nine and it's 14 courses right the way you finish it's hardcore isn't it yeah mean, how do you prepare your stomach for a day like that? Through your life by being a greedy bugger, which is what I've just loved.

That's the thing, isn't it? Is anyone on that show has got to really love, you've got to love eating. And eating's not just about quality, it's also a bit about quantity, isn't it? Oh, yeah. So it works really, it's a great gig. It's a great gig, yeah.

Take it back to you growing up who was around your dinner table and what is a very memorable dish a memorable dish gosh from around the dinner table finna's crispy pancakes that was my memorable dish really i actually shit you not um so here's the thing i was born in this country i kept my parents were obviously indian immigrants came over late 60s as doctors as doctors you see and they were they trained they trained in in agra so they their halls of residence overlooked the taj mahal wow that's all right isn't it yeah but they came over and in those days it was enoch powell that was saying come over we've got i know we've got a shortage of doctors but what happened is i'm going to just speak very frankly what happened in those days in the late 60s asian doctors could only really get jobs in the in the in the towns where no white doctors would go to work fascinating and so as a

result you know so they they came to this town called scamza which was a new town and we were the only indians in the village and um you know so i was born in ormskirk in west lancashire so i'm kind of just a brown english person but i am a brown person so you you were born into this really troubled time you know if you've ever seen this is england or whatever set in the 1970s i mean you you know did you yeah did you it was it was difficult it was really earliest memories firebombs earliest memories bricks through windows somebody used to scratch the word p-a-k-i into our car pretty much every other day and you know people that would stone my parents

on the way to work with the very patients they were there honestly it was it was terrifying but what's and this is i, why food matters so much, and your question's a really interesting one, because, honestly, about the only thing you had to offer was the food that was actually really delicious, you know, and that was in the days of Finder's Crispy Pancakes, and there was a chicken, do you remember the chicken-flavoured one? It was slightly curried.

Yeah, I don't think I... It's way before your time. But it was when frozen food started happening when people started getting fridges and freezers and you only had a tiny little freeze box. So if you bought bird's eye or finders... They slotted in nicely. It just slotted in just about and it was a real treat.

So your favourite was the chicken? Your favourite was the chicken. So we get the chicken because it had a little bit of spice. My mother would still flip them open and add more garam masala to them. She'd do that to a pot noodle. She'd do it to anything. But it was a funny thing because what was happening is that the sort of British palate was just getting used to the Vesta curries and, you know, the chicken curry inside. You don't know about Vesta.

No. It came dehydrated and you poured hot water on it and it turned into a curry like on the Apollo 13 is what they would have had was it tasty? yeah delicious no it's like a dried curry possibly the sauce is more like a thicker cup of soup

kind of thing and then you'd make some rice and then you'd make some rice and then you'd possibly boil in the bad rice didn't it have rice i don't know that it had rice with it so the irony is we didn't ever have them what would this be in indians so we knew about them i that the hallowed realms investor i'd have loved that to be honest but no we were having the proper stuff your parents kind of reject their heritage with the the cuisine that they were cooking you to try and blend in? Do you know, they can't, they couldn't, what was interesting is in a way they did so. They would make, my mum would make sausage and mash, whatever, but she would always put a little bit of turmeric into the mash.

She'd always put a little bit of turmeric into the mash she'd always put a little bit of spice into the sausage pork chops she would pressure cook them with garlic and ginger which is a big deal because in those days to get garlic and ginger we had to drive to manchester in those days to buy turmeric you had to go to boots the apothecary and buy in tiny little bottles i'm showing you sort of urine sample size bottles yeah you know you couldn't play olive oil in a supermarket you bought in the chemist yes that's right yeah you know and that was not long you know you think about when the women got the vote it wasn't long ago was it it's the same with spices so they did they they because they knew well it's not just like you couldn't get the ingredients so if you were cooking a meat curry you don't just go and get uh you know diced shin beef or whatever you know you have to get lamb that's specially cut for curry you go into

an asian butcher's and say can you cut lamb for curry so so they were having to make english food but they would always in my view adulterate it and as a child you would beg your mother if you're bringing friends home from school because eventually i made so i don't put the turmeric in the mash do not do anything spicy and the irony is i've got girls they're 20 and 23 now they're pretty much menopausal now my girls but you know growing up it was the same thing it's such a funny thing um you know they would kind of beg you if their mates were coming home from school please don't make butter chicken and it's all the kids would want you know it's so funny i remember when i went to alpa katech's house

and i i remember the dinner it was fried egg and chips and i doubt they were having that every night and like it was probably because alpa had said to her don't do these don't do yeah did she put turmeric on the chips no they were delicious chips but they were homemade really yeah and it was i remember it being very delicious but yeah i wonder what alpa was thinking yeah egg and chips is almost an indian meal oh is it yeah so fried egg is a big indian thing and chips is a big thing but we'd always put turmeric on the chips really okay i never knew about turmeric on chips did you know so turmeric with it being a root it's just with potatoes honestly it's synergistic it deepens the earthiness of root veg. Oh, wow. So it's not just about a turmeric.

The last thing turmeric's about is colour, to be honest. It's about that earthy note. So if you add it to potatoes before you cook them, particularly fried potatoes or roasties, it really deepens the depth. And because it deepens the depth, you taste the sweetness of the potato more. It's really interesting.

How clever. Yeah. Would that apply kind of for any root vegetable then? It does. We would not, so things like mulli, which is another root vegetable we'd use a lot of, you wouldn't put it on that

because what you want from there is pungency and sweetness. So it's so fascinating. It's what do you want from that root vegetable? do you want from that vegetable and turmeric does certain things and it's the earthiness too much and it gets bitter but it's that that's a really easy and it's so good for you it you know but what would be your special meal if it was someone's birthday or it was a celebration or a feast day or yeah so that would be indian at home it would always be indian and it's that and absolutely seminal would be do you know puris or luchis they're oh yeah yeah love them they're dead nice they're they feel really um they feel like a sexy canapé kind of like they're

they're exciting yeah so this is a this is a kind of a flatbread obviously it's unleavened chapati flour rolled into a disc and then you deep fry and it, and it puffs up, and it's massive, and it's delicious. So that is one thing. And they're fried in ghee. So that's why we've got the worst health problems, honestly, with Indian. Have you? Well, yeah, because frying in ghee, there's no need to be doing that. But that party food is seriously heavy.

And then we would have something like like a hydra body chicken curry which is a chicken curry based on south indian spices which is curry leaves mustard seed coconut you know so those would be those kind of really hedonist that's kind of party food from in my memory but you know again you know you you woke up smelling those things and you knew people were coming over in the evening. And did you try, did your mum try to make friends with neighbours, like making samosas for them? Yeah. And she didn't perceive. Well, they're probably too ignorant to understand it.

They'd rather have painkillers and, you know, something for their UTI. My parents, so because, and this is... Were they both GPs? They were both GPs. But do you know, this is, I have to say, I think Britain is uniquely open-minded when it comes to the way the world cooks. I know that because of, you know,

because the restaurants that I've got, it's been, it's taken this long for an Indian restaurant to become a chain. That's ludicrous, isn't it? It's ludicrous. It's the first chain, you're right. And it's bonkers but look how popular you dishoom like i mean like that's like yeah it's where all the americans want to go

which is amazing and that's london but that's that's a really interesting thing because i honestly do you think jesse london is a different country yeah it's an entirely different country because your nation your nation yeah wow yeah so in the in in london you have an entirely multicultural um integrated population which is not necessary you know it's not representative of the rest of the world yeah and i don't imagine people from southall are going to de schoom no no to be honest yeah it's great you know because it is right that you know you've got tourists coming in people are inquisitive about food london in my view is the best city in the world when it comes to food. I think so.

Isn't it? Well, you're on Charlotte Street, aren't you? I'm on Charlotte Street. That's a fabulous place to eat. Sweet street. Is it Mowgli or Mowgli? Mowgli, whatever you want it to be, to be honest. What is it, though?

Mowgli. It isn't, is it? So it's a Bengali word that means feral child. It's nothing to do with Kipling at all. It's from our language. It means feral child. Yes, that's why I named it no but when I so I started Mowgli so so weirdly enough so my life I was a child protection

barrister for 20 years which is in your realm because I was no wonder how long did you train as a barrister and kind of was that the route that your family were very happy for you to take the doctor or a barrister yeah well the barrister is slightly second second um the doctor doctor is the ultimate really i know that my brother's a doctor exactly yeah so it's ridiculous and it is it's it's this the truth is you know sort of as immigrants you're sort of raised to think if you do not work harder than everyone else and achieve more than everyone else you will fall off the face of britain you know this is honestly sort of what how you raise and this is my brothers and sisters i have i've got a five a brother five years old and he is a doctor yeah and he's a doctor so i um i did law i went and did work experience in a barrister's chambers i was

working in a solicitors in the summer whatever delivered a brief to a set of chambers in liverpool and i didn't know what a barrister is you did obviously walked in delivered this brief and i can't it was like scales fell from my eyes i just thought oh my god there is a job like this this is exciting it's exciting it gripped me and i nicked a little piece you know brief tape do you remember barristers briefs pink brief tape used to be wrapped up in tape. Yeah, they're always wrapped up in red. So I nicked a piece and that was my charm and it kind of got me through to do lots. Where did you go to university? Well, I started by doing psychology at Liverpool Uni of

and then I transferred and went and did law at John Moores. So I did three years there. In Liverpool. And now you're a chancellor there. Oh, yes, and I'm the chancellor there. Isn't that you're are you a Chancellor there at John Moores oh yes and I'm the Chancellor there isn't that so sweet she's the Chancellor of John Moores

very sweet of them at Liverpool oh wow yeah you just get to wear a very big frock and hand out and you're doing speech

yeah but it's amazing because I love those kids I mean they're kids they're whatever they are kids because they're less than 60 years of age but I have such a heart for them

you know it's an amazing thing to go back to the uni and do that and to be in that role. So you were in barrister chambers in Liverpool? In Liverpool, yeah. So you then qualify, whatever. You come down to London

and you do, in those days, you had to, as a barrister, you had to dine 40 times. So to become a barrister, it's called dining. Dine in the inns of court. Is that like the Harry Potter bits? You have to have your meal, yes.

I like those. That food is good. That food is so good. I used to do clerking is good that food is so good did you just like writing notes for solicitors in peckham amazing did you used to go into the the inns of court and the barristers you always i was really happy whenever they put me with like the fun barristers yeah we should go for lunch and it's good food isn't it so tell me about dining what is it so dining is historically it was the way that you learnt the law is that you would go down to the inns of court and you'd go to the dining chamber and you could be sitting next to a high court judge

and next to somebody junior. So that is how you would learn the law, is just by sitting next to and dining with and eating with people that were practising. Network. And? Network. And network.

So they'd know who you were, I think. Exactly. So they know who you are and it's just you know i mean this is called table manners but it's about just developing it's ridiculous isn't it developing those graces and the way that you speak and the way that you you know so as barristers there's some really interesting rules like you never you have to call each other by your first night name so i remember on my first day on my feet they call it on your feet when you get your wig and your gown and you stand there for the first time and you're up against somebody that's you know 30 years senior

and eight foot taller than you and you've got to call him bill and for someone raised like me where you would call them mister or auntie or auntie exactly right that was a real leveler it was very interesting it is with the aim of you feeling equal so that there is no disparity you don't go in there feeling smaller because you've got to be able to argue against someone like that so it's all of those little things you learn the etiquette that's fascinating yeah it's a it's a whole other world and it's not even as though it's just token it can you see just in that by actually calling you by your first name you also as barristers do not shake hands you'll never shake hands with another barrister because again you are supposed to be completely equal and it is this

sorority fraternity so you never shake hands and you so already you can see that it is just psychologically um getting in you into the place where if you had to go head to head with this person in 10 minutes you could without any fear you know it's dead interesting and then that dining thing you know you you sit and again the food is very good the meals last for ages because that's when you are supposed to be discussing work and the rules are nothing is discussed outside you know it's really open language so so that's historically where the dining came from what would be your like top meal in the dining chain would you call them dining halls yeah yeah yeah what's a really memorable dish from that that you were like really

looking forward to when you came down to london can i tell you i went the other day i was the other day and i recommend you do go in a temple go to the dining hall i was a member of lincoln's inn and that is the most sort of harry potter looking yeah it is stunning um but i was in in a temple a friend of mine amazingly, is a bencher there. And that's how old I am, isn't it? You know, for your friends. What's a bencher? A bencher is one of the most senior.

You know, she's a silk and she sits at the top. She's a Liverpool girl. Sam Hillis, she's fantastic. Anyway, roast beef. But I can't tell you, it was perfectly rare. Wasn't it, Beanie? I took my daughter. The amazing roast beef

crispy fantastic perfect potato roast it was a roast dinner but you know you could select all the bits but they were handmade and then he brought out a creme brulee that he'd made in the back you know it's it's the most delicious and it's cheap it is not expensive yeah it's really really good food so i recommend it. I think I may train as a barrister. You don't even have to do that. I think you can go in. I'm sure you can go in and dine.

Well, I just rock up and have a roast. You could rock up. I don't know. Should we eat? Yeah, we can do. We should. Yes. So why did you call your restaurant Mowgli? Well, the funny thing is I wanted to call it actually Mongoose.

So I had three names in my mind. So when I started the restaurant 10 years ago, it was when, it sounds a bit mad, but social media was kind of taking off in a big way then you know instagram wasn't really a thing twitter was happening and and facebook was a big thing community wise then so i all i knew is that i wanted to build this restaurant with these dishes in it um and i put and i sort of put the menu out to to facebook and just said look i want to do a restaurant and And these are the dishes.

How much would you pay for these dishes? And very collaboratively, sort of Facebook people got involved and kind of vicariously watched this journey. And so when it came to naming it, I even put the name out and said, look, there are three names I'm interested in. Mongoose, Mowgli and Rickshaw. Which one would you like? And resoundingly, they came back with Mowgli. Were you disappointed with that? I was very disappointed because I wanted Mongoose. and rickshaw which one would you like and resoundingly they came back with mogli were you disappointed with that i was very disappointed because i wanted mongoose and i also want to it

was my third choice to be honest the good thing about it and the reason i chose the name ogis because it was a pet name i had for my girls so my girls back then were about 10 and 13 they were young yeah and suddenly you know as a barrister I was there all the time I was home you'd get home from court I'd cook for them I was there pick them up whatever as soon as you start a business what was fascinating is is it's like adopting a child it takes over your life and I needed them to be invested in it yeah because my husband is a classical guitarist plays all over the world you know but they would never ask if he's not there, where is he?

Why is he not here? There's no demand, you know, why is he not cooking for her? Why is he not picking us up? But as a mother, crazily enough, you know,

if I wasn't there because I physically built my first restaurant, you know, so I'd finish in court because I had to earn the money. Then, you know,

wig and gown off, hard hat and boots on and then I would physically build my first restaurants. And the only time I saw the girls was when they came in to do homework on a building site. But them having a restaurant that's named after them, them then naming the dishes, they named the dishes, they chose the logo.

It means, oh, my life. Well, let's hope it's great, Mum. Heaven. It means they're invested and they feel proprietorial towards it, which is amazing. Thank you, Mum. Heaven. It means they're invested and they feel proprietorial towards it, which is amazing. Thank you, Mum. I can only imagine that being a barrister is really full on. Yeah.

Do you want to help? Yeah, sorry. Do you want me to help? No. Because that's what I'm used to doing. You can serve up, darling. Can I... Am I starting just eating?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you tell me what this is? It's a lamb. Yes. It's a recipe from New York Times, a David Tannis. And it's supposed to be aromatic oven spit roast lamb. So it's supposed to taste like it's spit roast. Yeah.

But you do it in the oven and who knows what it's like. It's beautiful already it's beautiful is it nice? I'm going to just eat the bits off the table here just to really get those in my mouth and I will feed your daughter there's loads

would you like some rice? do you know what I dream of is a proper Jewish chicken matzo because I keep listening to your thing if you'd have said you'd like a Jewish meal, I would have done it. I would have loved a Jewish meal. Well, you need to say it. Do you know why? Because my mother-in-law, so, my husband's Hungarian. Do you need salt?

It's perfect, isn't it? Are you sure? Well, I put a little bit on. I wasn't going to say it. You looked at me. Yep. You think it's under-salted? She does. You can see it in her eyes Jessie criticises me for everything I cook

I like a lot of salt I liked it much I love salt you're being a wonderful guest by the way salt makes everything happy

yeah and a little bit of sugar as well yeah exactly sugar and salt so your husband is Hungarian

the reason I say that is because their food is phenomenal. You know, that whole Eastern European way of cooking is, it was a revelation to me completely. And it is amazing. And his mother cooks, they're not Jewish, but his mother cooks Jewish food for families. So she's a cook and she cooks for some Jewish families in Frankfurt.

And that whole thing with the beetroot and the horseradish and the good soups and the clear soups i'm interested how that worked out for you your mother-in-law being a cook and then you being like some hardcore businesswoman boss lady chef, chef, extraordinaire. Was she like, this is the right woman? I mean, you weren't doing it then, were you? Well, should I tell you?

I can say this because she doesn't speak English so she'll never hear it. Bloody hated me. No, I'll tell you why. So here's, I'm going to talk as though no one's listening. That's what my husband said

before I came. He said, just talk as though no one's listening. So, I was studying in Lincoln's Inn inn he was studying at the royal academy of music and we met in the same hall of residence but they are a guitar duo so they are twins that play together right and the aim was his brother his brother she was he was supposed to go back to germany and live with his mum him and his brother because he met me he then was going to move to england we're going to get married he's going to move to england and as a

result his twin brother was also going to have to stay in england because they practiced like eight hours a day you ruined it for i do not blame her for hating me so on our wedding day she wore black oh my god and she sobbed in the bogs oh my god that's amazing that's amazing and um yeah so she sobbed in the toilets and the poor thing and i totally get why i totally you know i totally get why i had to totally prove myself so i learned hungarian i cook hungarian food i literally would have her live with me i adore now... Now, we adore each other. Now, because we've weathered 25 years. Honestly, and that is not easy,

it just isn't. You know what I mean? I think she appreciates that because Zolli's parents put up when Zolli was... His name is Zoltan. When he was very young. Good name. It's a strong name.

If I had another one, I'd have... That's good. Do you like the name Zoltan? That's really cool. It's like a name. If I had another one, I'd have... That's good. That's really cool. It's like a Marvel baddies name, isn't it? It's cool. Beans, there's a bone here you could chew. We're bone chewers. Sorry, what? What do you mean a bone? Are we talking

chicken drumstick here? Any bone. How are your teeth? Smashers. Gorgeous. Ah! Maybe... Maybe because you've been doing the bones because of the bone chewing I'm getting a little bit more calcium

but honestly we give our teeth a hard time in India because you honour every part honestly chewing

but eating with your hands yeah and bone in meat is how the majority of the world eats and the meat that's closest to the bone

is the most tender it's the stuff sweet yeah it's the sweetest because it's up against the bone. It's not done a lot of work. It's just been sitting there, sitting against its bones. Oh, yeah, chilling out. I want to know how you went from being a barrister to opening restaurants.

What was the beginning of that? Was there a particular case where you were like, fuck this? No, but while I was a barrister, I to teach indian cooking so what i realized so having turned my back on on indian food all my life because i was embarrassed by it came a point when you know i was sort of whatever early 30s and it's actually the easiest food to cook for a big gathering it's and it's dead delicious and people see i i never do it because i never think i'm doing it right yeah me too i'm anxious i'm gonna tell you my little thing that happened to me that basically i realized it was a real

archimedes moment i realized that there is a three spice formula behind all curries so all curries are predicated here's my theory and it works honestly on three spices two of which never change right so the two that never change are turmeric and chili uh-huh and that third spice changes depending on the genre of ingredient that you're cooking so if you're cooking a meat curry turmeric chilli garam masala if you're cooking a fish curry turmeric chilli nigella seeds if it's root veg it's cumin seeds so that third spice changes but generally it's those three spices if you're doing root veg with your meat yeah would you do cumin and the lead the lead um ingredient there would be the meat so you're in

the realms of garam masala okay so it's really and once you realize honestly i'm not it it's really that simple and the reason you know it's that simple is because it's simple when you're confident and you know what you're doing yeah but it's almost and i i it shouldn't be that indian food is this kind of dna born dark art and i think many of us indians are quite loath to give away our recipes because we think we're giving away our very soul do you know what i mean so i but i'm second generation i will be gone in another 20 years or whatever and it's so important that these this way of cooking and these spice formulas are kept alive have you done that in a cookbook yes so that's in so i've got which one is the simple so the spice formula that's in a in one called the spice tree but there's also the 30 minute mogli which is nothing ever take honestly in india but because my grandmother's

kitchen was a veranda with a stove powered by cow manure which is the kind of food that you use there 30 minutes worth of fuel she had to feed 10 people and that is why indian food honestly at its most rudimentary scent in its most rudimentary is the simplest quickest food that you can eat it's honestly and and we don't think that and you are so right because you open an indian cookbook and you could literally lose weight reading the ingredients. And you just think, stuff this. You have to go and shop. You have to grind, roast.

That just doesn't happen. And that's why I became quite evangelical about two things. One is showing people how easy it is to cook. And secondly, about building a restaurant that shows you how we actually eat at home. You know, we don't cook with cream. Cream is what you leave in the milk to give babies. You know, you don't cook with cream. Cream is what you leave in the milk to give babies. You know, you don't cook with ghee. It's really healthy.

So that's why I became very passionate about debunking lots of these things that people think about Indian food while I was still practicing as a lawyer. What's your favorite curry? It's a prawn curry. A prawn curry? A prawn curry that is made right. You got very specific because we don't... Do you use tomato in that? You do. Yeah. You do a little bit of tomato, just a prawn curry. A prawn curry? A prawn curry that is made right. You've got very specific because we don't... Do you use tomato in that?

You do. Yeah. You do a little bit of tomato, just a little bit, but it's prawns with the head on and the eggs in. Yeah. So your whole prawns always shell on. Got it. And it's found...

So you don't devein them or anything? Well, you get the small ones and then not devein them. You know, sometimes they're tiny. It's just when you said eggs in, I was like, okay. Did that freak you out? A little bit, but I'm like, I'm pretty. Well, this is a foodie podcast. We're going to get down and into the ovaries.

I'm going to bloody do this and send you a picture. Right, eggs in, let's go. But you don't have, okay, so let's just use, and I start from the beginning. Whatever prawns you like, you start a little bit of oil in a pan. I'm talking two tablespoons. It can be olive oil. I love olive oil. You fry nigella seeds.

So a little teaspoon of nigella seeds and a chopped green chilli. Wherever you use nigella seeds, you use green chilli. They go hand in hand. Because nigella tastes of earth and dust. It sounds terrible, but it does. Peppery. You need the chlorophyll open window-ness of green chilli. So you fried your nigella and your green chilli.

How much? How many chillies? One and mild. I don't do hot food. I don't believe in hot food. So one mild, big banana chilli. And how big? A teaspoon or tablespoon of nigella?

A teaspoon. You only need a teaspoon. You fry them until they sizzle. And then into that you put a little half tin of tomatoes yeah and here's the magic ingredient you put in a good heaped teaspoon of coleman's english mustard oh i do not those two ingredients to jesse together literally will change the world tomatoes and english mustard that is a proper Indian Bengali thing oh my god this is

magical and for tin of tomatoes a teaspoon of Coleman's English mustard a little bit of sugar a little bit of salt always then you go in it's probably an 8 minute dish you go in with your prawns whatever kind and you go in with a good cup of frozen peas heat through

and you're done. Can you see? That is how we eat. And I can't tell you how delicious that is. Oh, my God. So that thing about mustard. Many, many years ago, hundreds of years ago, before the Indians had chillies, the Portuguese brought chillies to India.

Before we had chillies, we used to bring heat to food in two ways. One was with black pepper. Ginger. And one was with black pepper and one was with mustard. So mustard seeds ground down between two stones is how we brought that zing. So that whole English mustard thing, that mustard thing

is a properly Indian Bengali ingredient. So what I've just described that tomato, English mustard, nigella it's dead simple. You could do that with chicken. You could do it with butter beans. You could do it with cauliflower, whatever.

It's just a great foundational sauce. But there is something that dives straight into your endorphins. You asked me my favorite curry. There is something about that combination of English mustard and tomato that just goes straight to your endorphins. I love that. And do you use english mustard that's made up in the jar yeah powder you ask such great questions you're a proper foodie because you're right it's got to be the jar the powder is too bitter okay so the powder if you

make that up is too bitter you will not get the same flavor and i'm there's there are very few brands that do it but for some reason coleman's has got exactly the right balance of sweet salt and heat jessica i'm really excited about this it's so interesting i'm excited about it being eight minutes it's honestly as long if your prawns are cooked it's as long as it takes a piece to cook is it very hot would your children eat it's not hot at all my children do not do chili at all i do not do chili at all my auntie doesn't do chili it's bad for my tummy do you know what apparently it's not so here's the thing i've got crohn's disease and it's really interesting i went to see a consultant about what kind of food is good or

bad for crohn's and it's very interesting he was saying basically it's just not food dependent you know many many consultants will say it doesn't it doesn't make any odds what you're eating. Oh, I thought it was something that's a bit irritated. I wish that was the case because then I could avoid it. But it's not. Is there any cure for it initially? There's not a cure, but you can pack it into remission. And how do you manage it?

How do you manage it? Honestly, stress is a big thing. So, you know, you just have to pick your battles in life. But you've chosen two incredibly stressful jobs. Which ones are they? Barrister and then opening restaurants. Like, you are brave. But, you know, honestly, Jessie.

You're amazing. No, I'm not. Because, you know, it's like you. I bet you feel this way. I feel as though I've really not worked a day in my life, honestly. So, as a barrister, and you appreciate this learning, is it not the most fascinating? You open a brief and it is a privilege to be involved in these lives.

That's what I've always felt. Yeah. I think to get a good outcome for children, and family law is all about children, is just the best thing on earth, to be honest. I would like to ask you what your last supper would be. I wonder whether the prawn curry will be in there or maybe not starter, main

pud, drink of choice starter yeah pint of prawns prawns, just a big platter you know, a kind of tapasi platter of massive prawn shell on that's what i would want

with any kind of um a lemon on the side a lemon no you're gonna try them i don't need mayonnaise you don't need it they're both they're both fairly um you don't want pilly pilly you don't want it like i don't really get the mayonnaise with all that's doing is adding a bit more lube to the prawn it doesn't you know what i mean it doesn. No, Jess, there's no flavour in mayonnaise. Lemon, on the other hand, that is stunning. What is it? Well, who knows? I know what it is. Actually,

I was going to put those basil seeds on that we had. Do you know? Oh, the Ravinda. You know, from Jacoony. Have you eaten there? No, I haven't. Oh my God, you would love her. I should totally go. I know. You would love her as well. Have you ever met her? I've met her, No, I haven't. Oh my God, you would love her. I should totally go. I know.

You would love her as well. Have you ever met her? I've met her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she's gorgeous. So it isn't anything she's done. So it's a rhubarb tiramisu, which I slightly made up. But I saw someone once made one and I couldn't find the recipe.

Did you make it up? Yeah. I think it's going to be delish. And I think next time, potentially you could put cardamom in the cream. That's what I'm saying. Do you feel it needs it? Have you done anything in the cream? She's actually not even eaten it.

No. But now I will eat it and I will feel that there is something missing. She's done that to my head, Lenny. I've fucked it. That's what she's done. Saboteur. Do you know what I mean? Saboteur.

You are a complete monster. I'm going into this. You probably don't want any then, do you? Yes, I do. She's throwing a teddy. So you're going to have really good prawns. Big meaty ones or little babies? Is that too much?

I like a medium prawn. A medium. If they're too big, then I feel you want the sweetness of the prawn. The bigger the prawn, the less sweet it is. So I want the sweetness. I'll just have a tiny bit. Tiny. Thank you. Okay. Okay. That would be the starter. The bigger the prawn, the less sweet it is. So I want the sweetness. I'll just have a tiny bit. Tiny. Thank you.

Okay. Okay. That would be the starter. Yeah. Can I also get some clams on the side? Absolutely. How would you like them? I would like them boiled. Like you get at, say, Balthazar or Sheiky or whatever or Scott. Do you know the... No. Not clams.

Whelks. Whelks? I love a whelk. I don't think I've ever had one. Have you never had a whelk? Well, it's like a fishy chewing gum, really. Oh, no. Is it like oysters? I love oysters. Don't you like oysters?

A fishy chewing gum. You're not selling it to me. Oh, gosh. But that's what it is. And if you like that kind of thing, if you like a kind of fishy chewing gum, you want to go for a whelk. And I like a fishy chewing gum. Yeah? I'm going to try that. Okay. So If you like a kind of fishy chewing gum, you want to go for a whelk and I like a fishy chewing gum. Yeah?

I'm going to try that. Okay, so I would like a bit, this is my seafood platter going on. Seafood platter. Yeah. Mains. The thing is,

you know if it's your last supper, it really has got to be a roast dinner for me. For a last supper. Yeah. That is just an array of everything that is fantastic about food. I think you've got

your yorkshire puds yeah you've got your sweden carrot mash i love that you've got a very it's got to be such a good roasty you know a really good roasty where almost you know the edges of the roasty are coming away from the potato because they're so heavy with fat. Are you adding turmeric to your roasties? Or cardamom. I wouldn't put cardamom. Yeah. Have you tasted this? What do you think? Are we happy? I think it's nice. I think it could have done with a bit more sugar and cardamom in it. That's all I'm going to say. No, I don't think so.

Okay. It's very clean. It's really tasty. This is fabulous. I did just finish it. And it's yum. Also, the sponge fingers have got sugar all over them. What's wrong with them? I hung over. The rhubarb has got sugar in it. Or pregnant.

Jesus. And it's not sharp at all. Beautiful. Cardamom. Cardamom would have really messed it up, I think. Oh, you are? You! I think it's a sledgehammer to a lovely little wall like that.

I'll have some more, Mum. No, don't. Don't humour me if it's too much for you. It's very light. It's really light and beautiful. So, main is a roast. What is your meat? Beef.

Because I was raised not allowed to eat beef. So, it's Hindus. My parents were Hindus. And we weren't allowed to eat beef. So, as soon as I got to uni, I literally would buy the cheapest steaks from Asda every day and inject them into my eyeballs. Put random down my throat, you know.

Do you love steak? I just love what I was not allowed to eat. We didn't discuss the fact that you've just hosted a dog show for the last two days, right? Oh my goodness me. What? Like, how do you have time? Have you got a dog? I've got three dogs. Three what like how do you have time have you got a

dog i've got three dogs three and i tell you what animals i've got yes i've got three dogs i've got four pygmy goats do you like animals you two yeah you don't i've got two cats okay yeah what two cats but we live in london so you can't imagine being able to have them that's what can i see your pygmy goat? I like the sound of that. Do you want to see the pictures? Do you live on a farm? Four ponies, thank you very much for asking.

Whereabouts do you live? I've got two ducks. Two ducks. And a chicken called Boo Boo. Who's your favourite? So these are the goats last night. Oh, they're cute. Yeah.

Yeah? Yeah, I could have a few of them. You'll appreciate the names, Lenny. Truffle. Yeah. Kimchi. Kimchi. Sushi. Sushi. oh they're cute yeah yeah yeah i could have a few of them you'll appreciate the names let me truffle yeah kimchi kimchi sushi sushi and pickles oh i like those names yeah and so those are the goats that was being and who that's goose goose the whip it that's bear and that's david these are my dogs dav David David I love that why David so that people

were taking more seriously solid English name rather than wearing glasses yeah it's like an account just like how did we even get onto that

sorry because you've done a dog show so what's amazing is that yes it was a charity dog show so there's a local

children's hospice and we raised 106 grand over two days for this children's hospice good for you £106,000 over two days for this children's hospice. Good for you. But you know, it's amazing because what happened is about eight years ago,

my David dog went to the entry dog show we were just driving past. We'd nipped in. He's a little mongrel. And he came back with supreme champignon. What sort is David? He's a mixed breed. Of what?

Of Whippet, Greyhound, Saluki and Border Collie. What's a Saluki? They're beautiful looking. They look like a Greyhound, but with long hair on their ears. They're the most beautiful dog you could imagine. I may have a photo. Yeah. But anyway, my mum on her kitchen wall didn't have any of our wedding photos or

graduation photos she had a picture of david with his rosette and his supreme champignon banner and i realized so my mum because my dad died you know many years ago and she david was her dog and when she died he came to me but you realize how important these animals are to people you know she was honestly she kept him going he kept her going you know having that she's not i lost her two years ago you know she was she was 80 something and she was she had a great life and she went in her sleep which is amazing the way she went the way she would have wanted to go which is amazing really massive hypertension she chewed chewed tobacco all her life drank like a fish she she had a good hammered her body you know what i mean so she she really did live a good life you know and and it's crazy but you know modley's like a testimony to her those those are her recipes her and my dad's recipe so she lives on she lives on

in every way i've got a really strong faith so she's probably watching this thinking i'm being really inappropriate now are you hindu well interesting i was raised a hindu but i'm actually a christian so i've got a really strong faith but i was raised as a hindu and as a hindu you're kind of raised to believe that all got all paths lead to one or whatever do you know what i mean yeah it's very pantheistic in that way so but I think it makes you very spiritual being raised as a Hindu because it's founded on lots of superstitions so things like if you ever see a shoe

overturned it means you're going to have an argument if you see one star in the sky it means something is going to happen to your sibling it was really you were bound as a child, bound by these superstitions. It used to be that we, if you sneezed, this is bonkers,

but if you sneeze before you're about to go out, you've got to sit down for 10 minutes. I kid you not. You can't say the word. Achar means pickle. You can't say the word achar before a journey. Pickle? I know. You've called your pygmy goat pickles i know you're in trouble that's luckily why i kind of uncoupled myself from the super but it is very interesting because and if you go to india you know all the taxis will have a little

deity you know in our house we had deities everywhere there was a deity for everything so you are raised feeling very much that there is something else so when did you turn to christianity well i remember just thinking well i had some exams or something coming i was probably 15 thinking it'd be quite handy to have a little pray now which one of these 400 gods should i pray to because i went to a christian school and i'd heard about this you know whatever christ or whatever and i thought is he one of them i said one of them? I said to my mum, is he, you know, and she said, yeah, he's one of them. That's fine if you want to pray to him. So I'd seen him. He was blonde, blue eyes. He looked the type. I thought, I'll pray to him.

So I started just getting real, you know, I felt like I just needed some belief in something. And I might, and here's the thing, there may not be a god but and it makes me the biggest fool in the world but I have found it to be so useful do you know what I mean that you don't you know in your darkest do you mean by useful I mean in your darkest you you never feel alone it's mad it's like a psychosis isn't it I suppose you never feel alone you've got something you in your and I think it really helps and I found it in business as well to know that things happen for a reason I think when you're founded in that it really helps you never feel as though there's such a thing as failure you know because I wanted to be a doctor and then I wanted to be in these chambers and I wanted to do this and you were thwarted and doors close for a reason

and just in that little sentence for a reason it might be that there is a mind somewhere and it might not be that it's you know that what i believe in but in that way i found it really useful and also you know when you lose people just believing that there is something beyond what we can see and touch i think is sat is sanity you know in your darkest grieving moment but i think having that that belief that there is, you know, that the right doors will open, things happen for a reason, something's watching you back, there is a plan for your life. Oh, my gosh, that's what just makes you sort of skip into the world, really.

And I might be completely deluded. I completely accept that. No, I think it's a beautiful way to live your life. Yeah, blithely and kind of innocently stupid. Tell us about your charity work in India. Well, we just, it's amazing. When I started Mowgli, I started the Mowgli Trust at the same time. So I, you know, for every dish that we serve, we know we give a certain amount to charity.

So we've now given over two million through the Trust. But what's amazing, it is amazing only because i just think anyone i didn't have any business sense when i came to build this restaurant honestly there were no role models in hospitality where was the first one liverpool liverpool and you know i opened mogli which is a primarily kind of plant-based menu in a city where they were just getting the dirty burger movement so and i just remember thinking that you know if I've been lucky enough you know blessed enough to be given this little building then then I should be giving something back so I started then where every restaurant's got a house charity and we're

building two schools in India at the moment two girls schools developing two girls schools you know where they're still being betrothed at the age of eight where they're still you know female foeticide and things like that so it's about education and girls if they're having the period they can't go to school if they are ill in any way they can't go to school you know that all of these things um mean that they miss sort of 50 of their education time so it's just um being able to work with the teachers there and it's in my hometown in Varanasi so and that sounds all very worthy and I'm not saying that but what's I think just what's dead interesting about it is that people there'll be people there out in the world that are better business people

than me that all you need is a passion for something that uniquely fills a gap in the market and you kind of just urge people to get out there and take your you know rhubarb tiramisu to the market and create jobs and start supporting charities it's just been the most amazing journey in that way you know i never thought that building a restaurant could make you feel so completely fulfilled or actually useful yeah to the world around you oh interesting you know it is because you don't think about that in the in the hospitality industry necessarily when i approached it you know we came lenny you know we came from a job where every day you are thinking about how to make that child's life better it's profound yeah and it's deep and it is nourishing for your soul isn't it and then to go into basically selling curry you think how

am i going to get this sense of purposeful nourished fulfillment you know and that's when you when you kind of graft onto your business some kind of charitable aim it means that when the job becomes very easy as it is in a way you know it's never mundane because you're out there doing something better you're you're so fantastic to listen to. I'm really inspiring. No, you're amazing saying that. No, it's been such a pleasure to have you. And you're just quite incredible. And I think that your daughter must just be so proud.

Don't even go there. You two bring the best out, honestly, in all of your guests. It's been an absolute joy. It's been a joy for us. Thank you for being so open. It's so fun when guests like you come on and just make it wonderful did we get into bowel habits wasn't that do you want to

shall we Nisha Katona what a gem you're pleased with that one aren't you mum absolutely loved her mum was so desperate to have Nisha on and I'm so glad that I've met her she's amazing isn't she warm, beautiful

how beautiful is she she's absolutely hot stuff and also she's warm and wonderful and has wonderful stories Warm, beautiful. How beautiful is she? She's absolutely hot stuff. Yeah. And also she's warm and wonderful and has wonderful stories and is so generous with her stories and has done so much. She needs to be on Dragon's Den, I'm sorry. But I now know how to make a prawn curry in about 10 minutes. Yeah, I think I'm going to go to Soaper's now and go and get some fish. Love her.

Have you got all the spices that you need? Yeah. Oh, I've got too many apparently. Have you got a green chilli? No, I can go and get some fish love her have you got all the spices that you need yeah oh i've got too many apparently have you got a green chili no i can go and get what was it green chili and nigella seeds and hot and mustard english mustard was who knew that's amazing who knew about english mustard in a curry i'm i'm to try this on my kids. Do you think they'll like it? They love prawns. Do they like curry? They will, because I believe in Nisha. Okay. Thank you so much to Nisha Katona for coming on the podcast.

Absolutely adored that. A delight. And your food was delish today, Mum. That lamb. Was the lamb easy to make? Yeah. It was really good. Did you put it up really high?

You start it for half an hour. It's on very, very, as high as you to make? Yeah. It was really good. Did you put it up really high? You start it for half an hour. It's on very, very, as high as you can go. Yeah. And I turned it down to 150 for three hours. Okay. And it's supposed to be aromatic. Actually, I don't think I put enough salt on the lamb because I misread it. And I should have put the salt, rubbed it on the skin.

But I tell you it uses um six ounces of butter and you keep basting it and basting it but the butter it all ends up in the bottom of the pan it's garlic butter cumin seeds coriander seeds pimenton which I'd never heard of and I bought it that's kind of like paprika. It's like paprika but mild and it had paprika as well and garlic. So six cloves of garlic, you make it all into a paste with the butter and then

smear it all over the lamb. And the courgette frazzled. Did you like that? Yeah I really liked it. The frazzled mint. I think I liked the vinegar on it because it made it like less sweet and kind of. I think I'm not sure the juice was worth liked it. The frazzled mint. I think I liked the vinegar on it because it made it less sweet and kind of... I think, I'm not sure the juice was worth the squeeze on those frazzled mint because I over-frazzled the first lot and they turned brown.

So the second lot, I just put them in and out and then they just kind of frazzled and then they were... Well, I liked it all, Mum. Good. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.