Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S17 Ep 8: Meera Sodha

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

It’s a foodie dream today with our next guest, chef and entrepreneur Meera Sodha. Author of the new vegetarian & vegan cookbook ‘Dinner’, Meera joined us for lunch bringing an absolutely delicious freshly baked honey cake with her! We discovered that Meera learned to cook from her lovely mum who grew up in Uganda, how she became a columnist for the Guardian magazine, her varied (and wild!) past careers, setting up her own dating agency 'Fancy an Indian?’(!), how she started writing cookbooks with the help of a smoothie company, and the fabulous story of how she met her husband (it’s like a Netflix romcom). Plus, she really gives Nigel Slater a run for his money with her incredible ways of describing food. Meera’s new vegan and vegetarian cookbook ‘Dinner’ is available to buy now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Jessie Kirkshank and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills After Show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween.

Facebook is like a no. That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Kruikshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. acast.com Darlings, have you got your tickets yet for our extra special Christmas extravaganza at the Union Chapel on Monday the 2nd of December. We are doing a special Choose Love Table Manners episode live from the Union Chapel with Dawn

O'Porter and Chris O'Dowd. It's for a really good cause. Choose Love do incredible work for displaced people all around the world and we're thrilled to be partnering with them this Christmas for a special Christmas bonanza. Expect if you've been to our live shows before, maybe mum will be bringing some chicken soup. We may have to resurrect the chicken superfan and invite you all on stage. It's extra special because Union Chapel is really intimate so we can get up close and personal. You can ask Lenny all about her last leopard print purchase.

But above all, this is for a great cause. We would love to see you there next Monday. Don't miss out, it's going to be such fun. Check our Table Manners Instagram bio and Choose Love's bio for tickets. Hello and welcome to Table Manners, I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with my mum in my kitchen. It is a beautiful autumn day. The parakeets are outside. It's a blue sky but it was like three degrees this morning. So cold.

Very cold. Well, now my kitchen is like a greenhouse. Yeah. And I have direct sunshine in my eyes. So it's lovely. It's lovely. I've been on cooking duty. Oh, you've excelled yourself, darling.

I don't know if I have. I think you have. We have a vegetarian on Who probably has one of the leading vegan? Is it still only vegan? She's such a good vegetarian cook She writes in the garden. Yes, but like her whole thing was that she has a vegan column. Yeah, it's his vegan Mirasodas coming on the podcast. My brother cooks mirasoda recipes the whole time. Yeah. Salsa verde beans. That's Mira. And we've got her coming on to talk about her new

cookbook, Dinner, which is 120 recipes of vegan and vegetarian food. And I'm cooking. I'm on cooking duties. So I... You've prepped. I've prepped like a motherfucker. You've been the prep queen today. I'm still waiting to put in the main event, which... I mean, it could go one way or the other. I have made... If you've listened to the Jamie Dimitri episode, I made a savory galette and that was like a butternut squash and cider onion and cheddar cheese one. I haven't done that but I've done some, I remember it being quite nice, so I've

kind of improvised its pumpkin season and so I've used one of the most delicious Natura Delisa pumpkins and I've roasted them and I pureed the pumpkin flesh because it has the green outside so that would have made it look really ugly. And then I got pre-rolled shortcrust pastry which actually came in a circle which was brilliant as well, thank you.

And so I've put the base as the pumpkin puree much like if you were doing a pizza, like tomato base and I've left a bit of space around the edge because what you do is you kind of create a crust by kind of folding into itself. It's supposed to be very rustic, my kind of cooking. And then I've caramelized some red onions, which I did with some sherry vinegar as well to kind of add a little, and then goat's cheese, and then I've got some hazelnuts that I've crushed up that I toasted and I fried some sage and I'm gonna put them on near the end

because otherwise they'll kind of burn. And then I've done it with a herb salad of tarragon chives, dill, parsley. And then I've done, it's a Sophie Wybird recipe from Mob. So it's these harissa honey carrots and chickpeas that you do with whipped feta. So I've done that. And then... Have you been whipping your feta? Yeah, but it makes it sound like it's really hard. It's such a great cheat, isn't it?

But it looks very sexy. And it tastes great. Yeah. And then for pudding, I've done Ravnick Gills. It's called Baking for Pleasure, her cookbook, and I did her brown sugar meringues. I've never made meringues before in my life. These- Are you feeling pretty smug? I'm feeling so smug. Yeah.

I'm feeling like I could walk into a Nottarengi and say, hey, I see your gigantic, delicious meringues and I raise you. Yeah. The Ravneet Gill brown sugar meringue. And then the genius thing of this is that you do a kind of coffee cream. So you just do some granulated instant coffee, put some sugar in that with a bit of water and you pour that into mascarpone and then you add a double

cream and then you whip it and it's so banging. It's like tiramisu, it's delicious. And then I've done some cherries, frozen cherries with some sugar that you're going to put on top and then I'm going to grate some dark chocolate. We were talking about Black Forest Gatoes last week and it's almost like a Black Forest Gatoe meringue. Those tin cherries were not great. The tin cherries were awful. I recommend no one ever buying the tin cherries and always just go for the frozen cherries and then add some sugar. So I think it should be quite nice. I'm a bit worried that I'm gonna have a soggy

bottom with the galettes. Amazing. So yeah we've got a Mirror Soda coming up to eat a delicious vegetarian lunch and to talk all things Guardian Column and dinner, the cookbook. Mirasode, you've just joined us, not only with a beautiful bunch of flowers, shabli, my fave, and also a honey cake, which is outrageous that you had the time to do that, because I swear you're on the move at the moment and you're just so thoughtful. So cheers, thank you so much. Cheers. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, cheers. We're all drinking at lunchtime and it feels good. But it feels like late for me because we did morning breakfast radio this morning. Oh, did you? Okay. Well, yeah, did you have to be up really early for that? Six. Unreal.

Unbelievable. I'm just not as good as I used to be at getting up early. Because you're a diva now. No, because I'm old. But, I mean, you must be up in the morning anyway because you have kids. How many kids do you have? Two. And they're pretty good at it. I have to wake them up in the morning and I'm not saying like I'm not saying they're great at everything. Are they teenagers? No, I know that I think one of them is like

four but going on like 14. Got it. I've got a three-nager in the other room at the moment. Yeah. A three-nager. Yeah. I'm going to be just busying... Actually, can I ask your opinion? Because I've made a vegetarian... You are vegetarian, not vegan. Not vegan, correct. Thank God. Okay, fine.

Because I just put goat's cheese on the thing. So I've made galettes. A galette with pumpkin, onions, goat's cheese. I've kind of pureed the pumpkin. But I think that the Delisa pumpkins look so nice. Do you say Delisa? Is it Delica? I don't know. I say Delica but I don't know. I don't know either. Because they're from Sicily aren't they? Don't you know? Yeah. Okay I'm gonna go Delica. They're from Sicily. I think so. I think they all come from Sicily and they cure them don't they? I don't know.

And then they come with their like magical wax. Do you have to peel off a wax seal? Yes, it's so romantic. There's such a magnificently special pumpkin that they have to stamp it. Basically, I pureed some of the flesh, but I was going to put some more on top. But do you think that is pumpkin overload if you've already got the puree? I don't think so. It could be a nice textural situation.

Fine, okay, well, you just chat a bunch of times. So where did you learn to cook? I mean, my mum is an amazing. So where did you learn to cook? I mean my mum is an amazing cook and I didn't learn how to cook when I was a kid because I was like semi a brat and sort of took it for granted that she was incredible. But also she used to kick me out of the kitchen and say go and do your homework you know I want you to become a doctor. She wanted that sort of safety and security for me. I went to university and not knowing how to cook until I got homesick.

I was out one night with some friends and we were in a curry house on Brick Lane and they said, oh, what should we order from the menu? I said, well, this isn't the food that I grew up eating, this like baby puree corn, but I didn't realize that people didn't know that. It was like nothing like the Gujarati gorgeous vegetarian food. So what's your heritage? Gujarati. So Gujarat's on the west coast of India, and it's a state that's got the population, roughly a similar size population to the to the UK so about

16 or 6 million or something like that and so it's not small and it is predominantly vegetarian because in I think it's about 250 BC there was an emperor called Ashoka and after a particularly bloody war he said no more blood must be spilled. Okay it will be veggies. Yes, exactly. And then there's this principle of ahimsa, which is Buddhist, which is also kind of no harm must be done to people. And so traditionally, Hindus are quite like peace loving,

you know, and so the cuisine is centuries old, this way of, and so when people are starting to talk about plant-based food and getting vegan, getting vegetarian, here and it feeling like a trend, I mean we're talking, there's so many bits of the world that have been eating vegan vegetarian food for thousands of years. This brings us on to your column. How long have you been the vegan columnist for The Guardian? Mm, seven and a half going on eight years and I didn't think I'd last beyond a couple of weeks.

Am I right in thinking you weren't vegan at the time when you started to do The Column? Yeah, I wasn't vegan and I'm still not vegan but I love vegetables and I love animals predominantly when they're alive and so those two things kind of propelled me forward. But what happened was I got a phone call out of the blue one day from Melissa Deans who was like the editor of the then Guardian Weekend magazine. She loved Fresh India, my second book, which is all vegetarian, and said, oh, we cook loads of dishes out there. There's loads of vegan dishes.

Would you consider heading up this column? And I should have said no, because I wasn't vegan. And I also had a four month old baby at the time. But I could see friends of mine struggling all around me to try and figure out like the Western plates made up of like a big slab of meat in the middle of it and vegetables on the side. And they, I could tell that, you know,

they didn't really know exactly what to cook. And I felt like I could add to the conversation because I'd grown up eating like vegetarian food and absolutely loving it. And I thought, you know, if I looked east towards, like beyond India, towards Thailand and Vietnam, I'd find examples of other cultures and cuisines that put vegetables in the center of the table.

And there are so many of them. Like if you look at Thailand, like 95% of Thailand or Thai people are Buddhist. And- I didn't know that. Yes, they do eat meat, but like it's not like a primary, the cuisine's evolved without it being a primary ingredient. And so typically like, like if you think about a som tam salad, you can take a little bit

of meat out with no like real rupture to the recipe, it's still going to be absolutely delicious. But how would you replace like the fish sauce? So you can get like vegan fish sauce, it's really good. Yeah, Thai taste make a really good one. And I think it's made with- Is it called nam pla? So nam pla you can make with fish sauce.

And I think they make the fish sauce with seaweed because it's kind of got that salty umami thing going on. My daughter in the last week has said, I like chickens, mum, I want to be a vegetarian. I said, that's absolutely fine, darling, but you need to eat a few more vegetables, I think, if we're going to do this. How do your children eat?

Do they eat well? They're all right. I think they haven't always eaten well. So Aria, my eldest, used to come home and just demand buttered pasta most nights. And then she self-elected to become a vegetarian. I think that like, you know, she's like part of like the eco council at school. And she's got, I know they've got like, she's got a thousand teddy bears in her room.

Like she really loves animals and just didn't want to eat them. And I said exactly the same thing. You're going to have to eat loads of vegetables. So we kind of started just taking them off one by one and I think there's just something about like having a bit more agency and or say in what she wants to do and she just has started eating loads tons more vegetables now and it's been the most incredible journey because before she wouldn't like touch you know whatever we put in front of her and she wouldn't try it but she wants like she's desperate to be vegetarian and the other one

Yogi just kind of fell out of the womb just putting everything she could in her mouth and it's not fussy at all. She's like a self-elected flexitarian and god knows where she's got that from because it wasn't me. How old is she? If there's a sausage going she'll definitely eat it. She's a four-year-old. Yeah. Do you cook meat for them? I don't know, but Hugh, he's like the only proper carnivore in our family. And so he... That's your husband. Yes. Yeah.

And so he'll like occasionally cook some sausages or like roast a chicken alongside what I'm doing and so that we can all eat together. And you don't mind? No, I don't mind because I like I mostly ate vegetarian food growing up. But when my grandfather moved over to Uganda, he started hunting antelope and baking them in like an oven dug out of the earth. And so I'm used to eating meat. I just don't eat that much of it. I don't cook it at home. Yeah. Yeah. And I've got like a real weak spot for prawns myself. So have you, do you still eat them? I do because I'm not, you know, as I say, I'm a

pescatarian, but it's just this kind of problem with needing to label yourself because really I don't, 95% of what I eat comes from plants. But food isn't just fuel, it's also history, nostalgia, pleasure, tradition. That's a whole podcast. Is it? Yeah, well, there you go. Where were you brought up? So I was born in Scunthorpe of all places. I know. Scunthorpe? You haven't got the accent. Well, because my parents are from Uganda and I went to school in Hull and I don't think you can only tell on certain words like bath and grass and I can't get rid of that A. Do your family still live there? Yeah, they still live there in a little village in Lincolnshire and behind their house is a potato factory and there's like pigs all around and yeah, they're still there and there's a very small

Indian community there. There's not that many but my grandfather came into this country, he met someone at a desk, you know, like they were part of the exodus in 1972 where like 28,000 Ugandan nations came over and he was such a proud man and he said oh I don't want to take handouts from the British government and so tell me where I can get a job and the person on the other side of the desk said oh here they're looking for lorry drivers at Scunthorpe Steelworks so we ended up in Scunthorpe of all places um so we were the only Indians in the village and it was great though I mean were they were they nice? Were people nice to you? Honestly, I mean, I never had a problem at all.

I just, I mean, I think the only thing that it probably did for me was I was the one saying, oh, I don't want to go to school smelling of curry and fried onions. And so I didn't want curry for dinner. I really wanted- That's what Nisha Katona said. Did she? I wanted like spaghetti hoops on toast or wanted to go to pizza.

That's exactly what she said. And when friends came back for dinner, they were expecting, or they came back for tea after school, they were expecting Indian food. And she'd say, give them egg and chips. Yeah, I mean, it was amazing from a food point of view, because Lincolnshire is where like a lot of our produce grows, you know, they used to have like, loads of potatoes, like they used to have special railways that would carry them, like from Lincolnshire to London for the markets and Gujarati potato curry is like famous, but so we ate a lot of potatoes when I was growing up and like loads of cabbage and pepper. What do your parents do?

when I was growing up and like loads of cabbage and stuff like that. What do your parents do? So mum, she had a news agent when I was growing up and helped dad and he is a financial advisor so he's still working and so you know things to do with like pensions and insurance and... But very aspirational for you. I mean yeah really I would say so. I think they really wanted to make a good life. I mean they were they came into this country, they had everything taken from them. My grandfather was really wealthy in Uganda.

He was self-made. He like set up the first Coca-Cola bottling factory, one of the first printing presses in Uganda. He was in business with the Tilda family when they were like doing orange juice and not rice. Wow. Funny. Was that in Uganda?

That was in Uganda. So tilde from Uganda. They are. Yeah. So it was just all sorts of strange coming over to the UK because they were pretty poor. My parents lived in that estate that was notorious on that Channel 4 documentary called Skint, you know, the one. And so they just became very thrifty.

I mean, they ate curried baked beans and cabbage curry for days. And I think I really love that because I feel like the way that my mum cooked, it was very much about very cheap store cupboard cooking, lentils, beans, or cooked from scratch. But then she'd take whatever was in the fields around us, ended up in the greengrocers or given to us by neighbors

Like whether it was marrhaes or like abrasive pheasants. I mean anything really leeks, kale I mean, whatever grew she would just curry it. She was also really curious, which I love like super passionate So we'd like pirouette around the markets and she'd say make sure you look for the aubergines with the bright green tops because they're fresh And so I really learned from her like how to pick like good quality vegetables. Yeah. But so yeah my memories of home were kind of her making this incredible food, this like the smell of basmati steaming and dal like my favorite favorite dal. Which is your favorite dal? I mean it's called a daily dal and it's in made in India and I love that. I mean I love many dals, many many dolls in my heart now,

but that was my favorite growing up. Wasala omelets on Sundays. Yum. Yeah, dad putting Elvis on the record player or Latta Mangeshka playing and chai. I mean, it was gorgeous. So what's the basis of your curries or your mom's curries? Is it onions, tomatoes, garlic and?

Yeah, well, it's- Which spices would you not be able to do a curry without? Okay, so- Or family curry. Typical Gujarati spicing, you're looking at equal parts ground coriander. I like this already, this sounds straightforward. Yeah, it's equal parts ground coriander and cumin.

And they complement each other so well because cumin's this like dark brooding horse of a spice it smells a little bit like fresh man's wet in a nice way and coriander's this like light floral like lemony like really happy smell so those two go really well together and then there's Kashmiri chilli, turmeric always mainly for health related purposes. And that's equal parts as well or not? I mean you can add those like, I don't know, typically add like half a teaspoon of turmeric and then chilli like as you wish. And so those are the core spices and occasionally to start a, like some people like make a spiced oil called a turka after you've cooked something and then

pushed in. She likes to do it before because it would stink the house out where you get your oil nice and hot and you throw some mustard seeds in there they become nice and nutty or some fenugreek seeds and I said well why do you do that and she said oh it's mostly for health purposes. So I really think you could just get away with having like cumin, coriander, Kashmiri chilli, turmeric and salt and that would be it and that's like predominantly what she used. Now typically in Gujarati cooking you don't really use onion and garlic that much but she was raised partly because they were living in like really rural Uganda. She was raised by a Punjabi family and the Punjabi way of cooking is like a lot richer where you use like onions and garlic and

lots of ginger and she uses tons of garlic. I love garlic. I mean I love using so much that you can kind of smell it on your skin the next day. This is such a treat. My favourite thing is being invited over to other people's houses. We've had chefs on before and they've said that sometimes people really feel the pressure of cooking for you. Well for, well, for a chef. Yeah. Do you find that people kind of freak out and don't know what to do? I mean, sometimes I just feel like Hugh and I love hosting and so we tend to host quite a lot.

How did you two meet? So we had, so he came to my flat when I wasn't there and he saw my bike, he's kind of a bike nut, and saw my book collection and really wanted to know more about me and so invited me over. Why was he there when you weren't there? Oh, because he's friends with my flatmate and she was having a dinner party and I was at work. Okay. He broke in.

And when I met him, there was like, he looks like he splattered the walls with blood. He was making a fesenjan from scratch. It's like mother-in-law's Armenian. That's what Simon and the Bombers talk about on radio. Oh really? It's gorgeous to be had. No, I need to do that. It's so good. How to spell it? F-E-S-E-N-J-A-N.

And it's typically made, I think, with chicken or lamb. Yasmin Le Bon did it with lamb last night. She said, me. He said lamb. Yes, lamb. And so he'd made a mess in your kitchen. Not my kitchen, his kitchen. Yeah, he just kind of really gone to town

and doing this thing from scratch and it was gorgeous. And at the time I was working on, I was putting ping pong tables all across like London. I don't know if you've seen ping pong tables anywhere. Had a ping pong, what like playing ping pong? Was it that? Why were you doing that? Was it those places called Ping Pong

and you could go there and play Ping Pong? No, so it wasn't that. Okay. So, before I was in FIEDA, I had an arts organisation called Sing London, which had helped to set up and we put pianos and ping pong tables on the streets of cities in a bid to sort of get people together. And we didn't make any money from it, we were just kind of funded by different parts. And he worked in advertising and he wasn't very good at flirting, so I thought he was offering me

free advertising until I turned up to a date. And anyway, it was really nice. And Besanjian's now like one of our very special dishes, but we make it with aubergine now, so we'll typically have that at like Christmas time or when people come over and it's... That's funny, this is like the beginning of a rom-com. Don't you think? Yeah, it could be. Nobody wants this part two but that's set in London. Yeah and it was like a scene out of like a Bridget Jane style thing because his name's Hugh DeWinton and so I thought he had land and was quite rich

and was not actually. He sounds it. Yeah. Was that what compelled you to go on the date? Yeah, obviously. Maybe they used to have land. Maybe. I think they did. He said there's a lot of dead De Wintons in Wales and so maybe there's like a patch of land with my name, with his name waiting on it over there somewhere. By the way, I'm acknowledging now, the carrots are crunchy because I decided to

Scrub them. I'm them. Did I frighten the shock them? I'm sorry. No, but I scrubbed them outside I'm just gonna keep them like with the fucking skin on because it didn't have that much skin I was like, I'm just gonna be rustic and most I'm not gonna do that next time because no, I prefer them I prefer them to me like the taste of soil? No, I can't taste soil. Well, you may in a minute. Just, yeah. What did you do at university? So I did industrial relations, which is a really weird thing to study, I think.

Where? LSE, London School of Economics. Is that kind of like city planning? Is it start something? I mean, explain to us what's industrial. So industrial relations is sort of the relationship between business and people and government and like kind of organising how people work and so it's kind of, you know, it's all about trade unions and workers rights and employment law and how businesses operate and I don't really,

I kind of did it because I was doing young enterprise at school and I was a managing director, but my team was like, they were all rugby lads and we were painting photo frames and it was like a total nightmare. And I was like, this is so interesting. Like I can't get anyone to do anything.

And so I sort of became really interested in the people side of business, like the kind of human face of it, but I didn't really realize that like studying it would mean like I eat there's like kind of two roots out of it and one is maybe human resources and the other one's like you know trade unionism and that neither of those appealed to me in any way shape or form and so I was spat out of it and set up my own dating agency. Which was. That took such a turn. I know.

Was this before or after the ping pongs? It was before. I think I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I didn't really have any, my parents like worked for themselves. I knew I wanted to do something for myself. And I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I didn't want to kind of go into insurance that my dad had.

And at the time my cousin was looking for a husband, but she'd only ever dated English boys and she was looking for an Indian husband. And like the family was passing around these books with like bios and like photos like tacked into them and I was like, this is crazy. And so I met with the owners of JDate. Yes. Oh my God. It was actually the, or the people who founded it because it was like tacked into them and I was like this is crazy and so I met with the owners of JDate yes oh my god it was actually the or the people who founded it because it was the only online dating agency that existed at the time so for people that don't know what JDate is it's um a very very old dating it was before an app wasn't it or not maybe it was one of the first

it was one of the first online dating websites Online dating website. And it was for Jewish people to meet Jewish people. Yes. And so this one was meant to be for Indian people to meet other Indian people, and it was called Fancy an Indian. And I'm really, I'm really sad that I gave up the URL because it, I don't know, it's just such a great URL.

You could be like a tech queen. Oh my God, I could be so rich. You could be a billionaire tech queen. Oh my God, I could be so rich. I could be a billionaire by now. Imagine. But what does your mum say about this? I mean, she plants some- I mean, she'd be thrilled. Yeah, exactly.

She'd find a good husband this way, darling. Yeah. She would've been, they pumped money into it and at the same time, I was like working at a call center selling anti-wrinkle cream. And in like a bar. And in a bar. And in your spare time you were a teapot, as my grandma would say.

Well, what's the point? It's not me, it's when I've done everything. Especially you've done everything, so in your spare time you're a teapot. I don't know why she used to say that. I love that. It'd be like you can do everything, so you also can be a teapot.

I mean, I was just being, I was doing sort of part-time documentary making until I was fired. I basically tried my hand at it. You're an engineer. Yeah, I really felt like I was just being, you know, doing sort of part-time documentary making until I was fired. I basically tried my hand absolutely. You're absolutely. Yeah, I really felt like I was. And maybe that is like second generation immigrant, you know, something that I feel like

my immigrant parents gave to me. It was like, you can do anything, you know, because they started from scratch and they, you know, managed to come out of their estate and like buy a lovely old rickety house somewhere and, you know, have a nice life in Lincolnshire. How far did Fancy the Indian go? Fancy an Indian go?

I mean, it went as far as me printing T-shirts and handing out flyers in like Leicester Square. I organised a couple of events. Any marriages? No, it didn't get that far because nobody... It could. I know! Can I tell you what happened though?

Because also at the time I knew, I'd been told about Hugh, my now husband, and my friend said, oh, you should talk to him because he's really good at playlists. So I was organizing, I did have a couple of in-person events called Save the Date, where you had to show the other, who you were looking to date, like how good you were at flipping pancakes pancakes like blindfolded and he did the playlist and he couldn't make

it to an event but we ended up getting married anyway. Have you started writing this story? This is a Netflix role-con. Did any of the people you'd set up end up marrying? I know people who got together from a ping- parlor that I had from the ping pong time. So I had to be a- That makes it sound like a madame. My parlor, the ping pong parlor.

Susan Sandon has ping pong tables. That's her business. What? How do you know that? What, like the bars in New York, those ones? Yeah. Because it was so trendy at some point, wasn't it? You took it to the...

How long ago was this? Good question. It was 2004, five, 2004. Okay. Yeah, so quite a while ago. And I say I kind of fell into, the food thing was a bit of an accident. I've always loved food.

Yeah. The fact that I've got books out was because of a two-minute conversation that just changed the course of my life. And so like I was working at Innocent Drinks, you know, this smoothie company. And loved it there. It was like in their house. They were really buzzing. Yeah. So I was number 55, I think, through the door. And it was just a brilliant place to work and they offered this thing called a scholarship which was a thousand pounds to make your dreams come true. Arguably I needed more

than a thousand pounds but I was like I'll take it. So you had to stand up in front of the company and pitch Dragon's Den style your idea and then people would vote and I said oh I want to go and meet my family in India that I haven't met in Gujarat, write down the family recipes and then I'm going to make a book and give it to everyone. And by that I meant like, I'm going to write it up on the work on Word, on the work computers, print it out on the work computers

and then just give it to people who work to Innocent. Only one of the guys who voted for me, a guy called Pete was fixing my laptop one day and he's like, oh, I voted for you you and my wife's an editor at Simon and she sees she go and meet with her and I was like whatever please fix my laptop I need to go and get this powerpoint presentation done and so I went to meet with her and not thinking anything of it because I'm a brown girl from Scunthorpe and like people like me didn't publish cookbooks and Bryony Gowlett changed my life because she said oh this could be a book and you know I'll send you a list of agents and go home write a proposal and practically

kicked me out of the restaurant and so two weeks later from meeting her I had an agent and then five weeks later I had five publishing deals on the table and I just still can't believe that that would have never have happened if I hadn't talked to you. Pitched yourself to try and win a grand. No, but also talked to Pete Gowless who was fixing my laptop. It was just a two minute conversation. Are you still friends with him? I am still friends with him and Bryony and I just think you know these things can just happen out of like magic out of nowhere. Kismet though, maybe it was meant to be. Maybe it was meant to be. What's Kismet mean? Like Seren deputies, kind of like what was meant to be. Maybe it was meant to be. What's Kismet mean?

Like Seren deputies, kind of like what was meant to be. Maybe I wasn't meant to be like a tech entrepreneur. Maybe you still are. Maybe you're about to be a big Hollywood producer, because the story of your life is fascinating. Well thank you. I appreciate that. I was going to say, is there anything you've not done yet? I think partly what I found was, because I don't know if you know this but like I had a breakdown and so and I laughed but it wasn't actually a laughing matter it was actually quite a horrible period in my life. Was this after your second child? It was but I don't think it was related to her because it was I did have her during a pandemic and I think the reasons for why it happened are quite complicated. It might have been burnout, it could have been you know intense work deadlines or having a newborn baby

etc but I just didn't I fell out of love with like life and cooking and had to find my way back to the kitchen sort of step by step a meal by meal which is what the book Dinner is about. So now I think my point of saying that is I don't really, I try and sort of live in the little pockets of life these days rather than sort of ambitiously try and do new things. I'm presuming that's because you used to potentially think the other way and that was, you felt detrimental. Yes, I think what happened was I think my identity was very closely tied to achievement and so I just like went through life thinking that I could do everything and then just trying to

do all of these things and I loved it don't get me wrong okay just I fed off it felt like I had like air in my lungs when I was doing all of this stuff and I felt like invincible and I was like I'm gonna make documentaries I'll go and do this I felt fearless like you do when you're in your 20s you know you just feel like you can do anything. But do you think there's also pressure because you are second generation immigrant? Yes, totally. I just felt like, you know, my parents have sort of set the bar really high and they said, you know, we want you to be successful. Yeah. We want you to, and then they kind of laid out like a set of jobs that they wanted me to be happy.

And it came from the place that was really good because they had had to like, you know, they were hiding from the milkman. They didn't have any money and they just wanted security and safety for me. So it came from a really good place. What helped you get better? So it was, it all hinged on one day. And so it's probably been in bed for, I just didn't want to get out of bed. I felt very lethargic and like all of my senses just narrowed down to nothing. And I felt really discombobulated about what was going on. And then, you know, after months and months of the same thing, Hugh, my husband,

was starting to crack under the pressure because he'd been looking after our two girls, including our little baby and me, and also doing all the family cooking. And he said, I'd love you to cook me a meal. And it was his way of saying, I really need you to care for me. I need someone to care for me and to love me.

And so I just woke up. I'd been so sort of in my own head and I ran into the kitchen and I grabbed some lentils and some coconut milk and then went to the freezer where I keep, you know, all my chilies, curry leaves, lemongrass, you name it. And then I made this like Malaysian dal that we'd eaten bucket loads of in Singapore. And I, when I made it, I just felt really like,

I felt like fresh air, like in my lungs, I felt like energy in my fingertips. And I really loved doing it. And it felt so different to, you know, I felt energetic for a start and I loved cooking, which. And it felt so different. You know, I felt energetic for a start and I loved cooking, which I hadn't wanted to do. And so I thought, maybe there's something in this here and maybe I just need to cook for myself or for pleasure or for joy but not for work, not for deadlines, not for books. And so I started like cooking,

just kind of feeling my way through. And, you know, it was typically fried eggs in like soy and butter over rice, like we're doing really simple things like tofu fried rice or tomato pasta with a bit of kimchi in there. And I just kept a record of these things. And then this Orange Notebook that we keep by the microwave just started to fill up over time. And then I was meant to be under contract to write another book. And I spoke to my editor and I was already like a year late at this point on this book. And I said, listen, I really think I'm, I feel like this is giving me such purpose. Like I felt like by planning dinner, I felt really grounded. And by cooking it, it was

like a small sense of achievement in my day. And then with like coming around the table with everyone, it just was just magic. I just loved it, which I know sounds really basic, but before that, I'll say that like, I might've been working all day on a lime pickle recipe trying to perfect it. I couldn't give that to the kids. So then we'd give them pasta or something Hugh and I would eat later. And it was all quite disjointed, but like here we were just all kind of eating this one thing together.

And so dinner just became this like thing that I really felt like had so much magic and power in it. I think maybe as humans we've always known that coming around the dinner table is a really wonderful, joyful, brilliant thing, but I'd lost sight of it. I just, I couldn't really see it. What do you think was wrong with you? I think it was stuff that I hadn't addressed from my childhood,

that, you know, and I think it was that a lot of my identity was tied into work. And so I just kept on saying yes, and I like putting a lot of pressure on myself to do things. And then I think part of it was also writing recipes for, I mean, I've been in the game for 10 years now. And initially I started because I wanted to record my mum's recipes, and I wanted to record them because I wanted to pass them on. And suddenly I found myself not cooking the food that I'd grown up eating, the dal, the spinach and paneer curries, the aubergine and tomato curries,

that she cooked day in, day out. Like, you know, the smell of charged parties on the toa that like just filled, you know, that's the smell of my childhood. And I just got so far away from that, I think. And it's not like I was like power hungry, but you just can like go down a path and not I just didn't look behind me until it was a bit too late. That resonates so much that you're on this hamster wheel where it's all good stuff, so therefore there's no reason to want to jump off until you burn yourself out. And I got to the point where, you know, I have wonderful management and supportive people around me, but I was just like, on the outside everyone's going, you're doing so well, it's so good.

Like, and you're like, you don't know what you're doing. And also having young children, that resonates so much. I mean, I feel like this weight has been lifted that I have made this decision not to tour next year. And that's just one aspect. I love touring, but the juggle of that with the podcast, making new music, with promoting, with being a parent, it was like just even having that little bit has made me be able to feel like I

can be a better parent and a better podcaster and artist, I don't know. Yeah I think it's really powerful that you say that because I think there are lots of people who will look at you from the outside thinking how does she do it all? Yeah and and I hate that because they go, how do you do it all? And I'm like, actually, I'm really struggling. Yeah. And I'm sure it's pretty similar with you. It's hard to have it all, isn't it? It really is.

It really, really is. And we're part of this experimental generation, raising our kids and working full time. And it's really hard. I feel like I've broken free from it. I mean I'm still work in progress but I'll have this idea that I want to create like I don't know a fresh supermarket dull range or something and then send out a few emails and then I'll think crap I need to I need to delete those because I shouldn't really be starting a new project. I really need to

you know leave enough time for myself to just enjoy life, feel the sun on my face in the morning, do the yoga classes that I love doing, spend time with my kids. Like my idea of success these days looks like being able to pick up the kids at 3.30. And we do that on a Friday, and then we have film night, and I am just the happiest. Acast powers the world's best podcasts.

Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessi Kirkshank and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines.

And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no. That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jessie Cruickshank is not available on Facebook. Where do you think the best curry is in London? So my favourite place is Saravana Bhavan. Have you heard of it? No. Okay, so they've got, I don't know, about five branches across London. But the one that's closest to me is East Ham and there's a big South Indian community there and the

four of us, like my family, love to go on a Sunday early lunch, kids eat early but at the same time all of these South Indian families are tipping out of the temples, the women have got fresh jasmine in their hair and all their beautiful temple jewellery on in their saris and you're sitting bum-to-bum with them in Saravanabha and it's more like a canteen but it's really lively like properly pumping in there and we always are a big jug of mango lassi and then like rounds of doses and like dhal, butter, fry and you know if you order a dose it's not just a dose it comes with beautifully spiced potatoes, all the fresh coconut chutney, the sambar

I mean so good and j And jalapeño. So it's not really a typical kind of curry house, like, but it's- Does the job. Yeah, that sounds great. Would you like a restaurant? No, I don't think so, because I think if I had a restaurant, I'd probably feel the need to be in it every day.

And also I cook home cooking, like my food, the heart of it is like proper home food. And so my favorite thing is when people have cooked something and then it just becomes part of their like repertoire and something that they love. And so I think if I opened a restaurant, I'd feel the need to make it like fancy or fussy. And that's not really who I am or what my food's about. Samir, if you invite me for dinner, what are you going to cook?

Not lunchtime. I want to come in the evening where I can not just have mango lassi unless it's laced with something exciting. So, just tell me. What kind of stuff do you like? You can see I'm a difficult, tricky. No, she doesn't. I'm very veggie because she cooks very well.

You like aubergine but it's not good for your arthritis. Yeah, aubergine's not good. Oh, is it not good for your arthritis. Yeah The night shades are not good for arthritis I try not supposed to eat potatoes Tomatoes getting hard. This is becoming quite a tight brief Oh, yeah, okay, that's what I would do is not too hot for me would maybe she's a fast pop we start with pani puri because they're loads of fun I mean we've pretty stuck now tell me how you make pani puri yes I've seen people

on MasterChef make them and you make them when you put them in the oil they puff up yes I don't make them myself I just put them in the oil they puff up? Yes, I didn't make them myself, I just buy them. And where can you buy them? Okay, so you can buy them from any Indian grocery store, but have a look at, pick up the box and have a look at the bottom, make sure there's not too many shards because obviously it relies on the liquid staying in, otherwise it goes all over your, whatever you're wearing, and then you poke a hole

in with your thumb, put them to one side and then make a gorgeous delicious concoction of tamarind, like roasted cumin seeds, mint, coriander, a little bit of lemon and that sort of like panning like a water that goes in and then sprouted mung beans like voluptuous chickpeas like the ones that we've just eaten. You are so good with your words. You're like freaking Nigel Slater. You, Nigel Slater, could have like a word off about how you speak about food.

Voluptuous chickpeas. Voluptuous chickpeas, but they do taste like embarrassingly- Take that, Nigel Slater. Yeah, take that. Embarrassingly sexy, don't they, when you eat them and they're so creamy. I love that. So you've basically you get this

shell, you put all the little things in there and you can sometimes get these like little chickpea crisps and you pour the water and it's got to go into your gob within about five seconds and they are just amazing, they taste delicious like a flavour explosion and I'd make you a naked and famous which is the worst name for a cocktail in the history of man. Oh my god. It's terrible. Do you know it? No I don't. That's so good. We're going to have it though now. It's like the kind of grown-up sexier cousin of a margarita and so you make it. In famous. Yeah. Who made this up? I don't know. How could they make a sexy and more grown-up margarita and then have such a bad name with that? So it's tequila, the base. So yeah, it's mezcal and lime, so you know, component parts of a margarita in a way.

And then you add Aperol and yellow chartreuse. Oh my god. Oh wow. This is a shit mix. Yeah. This is like going to get you rocked. Yeah, it's kind of like can have one, shouldn't have two. Okay. Yeah. And do you put lots of like can have one, shouldn't have two. Okay.

Yeah. And do you put lots of ice in? Do you shake it? Yes, yeah. And it's the color of Miami sunset and you have to sip it quite slowly, but it's so delicious. I bet.

So good. Wow. So main course, that's a good one. I think I might make you- I don't like it too spicy. Oh no, it's fine. It's fine because Indian food doesn't have to be... Yeah, knock your head off.

I mean, sadly, it's Asian food doesn't have to be spicy. No, it's not. I don't add it in for my kids. Like, I'll add a little bit in that they won't be able to taste. But when I have people over, I like to bung things in the oven. Now, I used to make very elaborate five-course meals and now post-burnout and very much like you know assembly job or do it in advance. And so this butter paneer curry

and the recipes and dinner is a really good one because you chuck everything into a pan and you don't normally make a curry in a pan so it's quite a weird experiment for me. But I love it because it's so easy and I can just I'd be able to sit down and we could just chat away. Good. Drinking our naked and famous cocktails. Yeah. And actually, you know, before I used to be like a jack in a box, kind of jumping up and down.

So I'd make that for you and it goes really well. I know it's not in season, but with an asparagus thoran, which is a Keralan dish, like coconut mustard seed. Can you use real asparagus in Kerala? No, but, sea urchin, tomatoes, cashews. No but I I mean I cook quite like my mum I eat British produce and then I will cook something Southeast Asian with that and I'm a real tinker as well so I'm not typically like an authentic cook in any way shape or form I'm just I like to just cook. What would be the pudding? What would I make for pudding? Like again I tried to make things easier myself now and the ice cream that I love to just cook. Sounds delicious. What would be for pudding? What would I make for pudding?

Like again, I try to make things easier myself now and the ice cream that I love to serve people is the pistachio and lemon one, that's the Hackney gelato. Oh my goodness. Have you had that? I love Hackney gelato. I like the banana one. Oh, I've not had that.

Oh, it's like banana and peanut butter or something like that. It's so good. They are so good. They're bloody good. They're bloody good. And so my sneaky hack is that I kind of whiz up some like brown sugar and pistachios and like decorate like throw it over the top so it looks it looks nice and maybe serve it with some fruit but I mean if you were fully signed up paid up member of the

vegan experience or the vegetarian experience I'd make you my cheesecake because it's not made with real cheese and I just think what's it made with? It's a good question. Yes and it was just a mountain to climb and I think partly that and my 18 carrot laxor I just need to talk about because there's such absurd recipes one's got a kilo of carrots in there. Oh my god that vegan vanilla baked cheesecake looks sensational. How many times did it take you to get that right? Yeah no, many many many times because no one's agreed on what vegan dairy is and so trying to write a recipe around an ingredient that just you know is a shape shifter is not an easy thing but that's why I love the internet because someone I think I might have posted that was struggling to like write this recipe because it kept on splitting. And this guy, trying to remember his name,

it would come to me, but he got in touch and said, I think I know what your problem is. It's like the ratios of this to this. And I was like, he's actually just made, like he's made my year, but the fact that we've created something now together and it's like this, like it's kind of a, it's almost like the state of affairs on vegan dairy

and also the internet because that could have only happened like now otherwise I would have failed and wouldn't be able to publish this recipe I just think is it's really great that we can get here because veganism is still relatively new in this country and so I feel it's one of those ones it's like what are you grateful for? I'm like vegan dairy this guy who helped me with this recipe. You guys. I'm really pleased with it. That is amazing. Wow. That is Otolengi levels of meringue. It's actually about what Jessie thought. Wow. So it's brown sugar meringue with a mascarpone coffee cream cream. Cool. This is delicious. Cherries and grated chocolate.

And I'm not a pudding girl and I think this, it was really easy. So shout out Ravni. That is unreal. That is good. And that is like the perfect chewy meringue. I know, so good. She puts corn flour in hers.

I heard that. Do you also use vinegar? No, she didn't. But this is banging. Oh good. Can I ask you what your last supper would be? A starter, main, pud, drink of, I think I know the drink of choice.

Is it gonna be a Naked and Famous? It is. You're going away to a desert island and you cannot have these delicious foods. Okay, so in 2013 I took a road trip around India with my then boyfriend, he's now my husband and we ended up in Kerala in a place called Vakala. Oh yeah. Have you?

Yeah. So we were invited to Kamari's house. Have you been to Kamari's house? I don't know. Damn, you need to go back to Kerala. You need to go back to Vakala. Her house is like paradise. Not only does she cook from scratch, but she grew everything from scratch. Have you been to Kamari's house? I don't know. Damn, you need to go back to Karola. You need to go back to Barkela. Her house is like paradise.

Not only does she cook from scratch, but she grew everything from scratch. And I'm not just talking about vegetables. She made her own coconut oil. She had her own cow, like peppercorns, cardamom, cinnamon, everything. And so she made us this beautiful meal with 13 different curries, like beetroot pachadi, black-eyed beans, cabbage leeks, dals, like uphams, it's like fermented rice pancake. It was a sensational meal and like the best

of the trip. And then after we'd finished, she fed the banana leaf that she served onto the cow. So it was like also a no waste situation. And so I adored that meal and I've just, it's rarely been matched since. If I was, you know, if it was my last meal, my first call would be to Kamari to come and cook. It was just unreal. Would she do the whole meal? She would. So I think typically within genefeeds, you don't really tend to have

like starters mains and puds. Um, you just keep going. You just, yeah, exactly. You've just got 13 or 14 or 15 things in the center of the table. So I think that's probably what I'd do. I'd have like a feast. That sounds heavenly. And to finish? To finish, I think, well, I mean, this is quite incongruent, but if it's my last meal, and we're just allowed to be whoever we are, I would probably have a tiramisu, which sounds bonkers considering the meal that just preceded it.

But it's one of the greatest desserts in the world. I mean, tiramisu is amazing, especially when it's made really well. And I had a sensational pistachio one recently. It was so good. Where from? So it was a girl called Rupa Bhadani who made it. And she ran a supper club in 56 St James, which is in Walthamstow, like quite close to me. And it was mind-blowingly good. Mind-blowing.

And I'm kind of just trying to see if I can inch in and become friends with her so that she might give me the recipe. So, so like imagine that like coffee and pistachio cream. Oh, oh. Mira, it's been such a pleasure hearing you speak and speak so bravely and beautifully about your struggles, but also a wonderful outcome, which is dinner. And thank you so much for being on. And it's so, I'm so- Your stories about food, you make everything come alive.

The luxurious chickpeas. I'm gonna bring that up again. I love that. Well, listen, I make everything come alive. The luxurious chickpeas. I'm gonna bring that up again. I love that. Well, listen, I've absolutely loved it. I love meeting you two. I think what you're doing is amazing. Your food is sensational. It was absolutely brilliant, darling.

Yeah, and that's good. Would you like me to put it in a doggy bag? Yes. Yeah, I'd hate to at home. Yeah, because I gave you a cute one, I'd hate it at home. Potentially, yeah. Because I gave you a cute one. I'd like to be polite and say, no, don't go to the trouble,

but it's just too good. Thank you so much to Mira Soda for coming on and being so honest and fabulous and generous. I mean she came in, I have to say, that's very generous by her. We haven't been getting as many prezies from guests recently. Beautiful flowers. But what other guests have lacked in presents she made up for in flowers, Beautiful bottle of wine. and honey cake. Just a word for all the PRs that have their people coming on. Just fucking bring me a bottle.

Jessica, don't be grass-free. No, I'm not. But that was very generous. Yeah. And appreciated. Yeah. And how thoughtful that we're recording this. Because she knew it was around Rosh Hashanah. And it's just so considerate.

And it's the Claudia Rodin recipe. Of the- Now I know. The goat. The goat. Thank you, Mira. I loved hearing her talking about food and her upbringing and her relationship with ingredients and meals and-

Very articulate, beautiful words. Oh my goodness, just like, yeah. And I'm going to finish the chavely with you. Oh no darling, I think I better not. Really, how's that fast gonna be tomorrow? You're gonna be dehydrated. I'm gonna not drink tonight. Thank you Tamira Soda, her book, Dinner, is out now.

So if you ever, and as she said, she says she's a lazy cook. She wants to get the best flavor in the quickest time possible, That's my kind of gal. So if you're looking for a vegan vegetarian recipe book, this could be quite, well. I have to say, she's one of my favorite girls. I loved that. To be honest.

Listening to her talk about food, I could have, I was annoyed that the cab was here to do this. She's also got a beautiful voice. It's very soothing. And you know you'd have a good night out with Mira. Yeah, naked and famous. I'm in. Thank you, Mira, and thank you to everyone that listened.

Mira Stode's book, Dinner, is out now. Go and get it. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture, but when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle.

I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no, that's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Krugshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow,

and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com