Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S2 Ep 7: Jay Rayner

Episode Date: March 28, 2018

How does one prepare a dinner party for a food critic?! After the initial flapping Mum took off to make sure her hair looked fabulous and I put my Paxman hat on and whipped out hard hitting questions such as “Would you do Greg Wallace?” This week its Jay Rayner making us feel all nervous about our hosting abilities. We like to think the three helpings of lemon ice cream secured us a solid 4 stars... Produced by Alice Williams for Cup and Nuzzle Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome back to Table Manners, our podcast with me, Jessie Ware, and unfortunately Lenny is not with me. She's doing her hair for our guests this evening. The house is in a bit of a kerfuffle. Even our producer Graham is overexcited and slightly nervous. My brother has clammy hands. He's been baking all day. He even referred to this gentleman as his icon. So tonight, whilst my mum gets ready, I shall introduce him. His name is Jay Rayner. He is a food critic and he lives down the road in South London. Mum has been worried about this. We've all been worried. We got a very, very lovely email from him. He said, in the nicest possible way, people get weird over cooking for me because I'm a food critic.

Please don't roast any swans in the process of this podcast. So, mum, I'll let her explain the menu. Mum, you look very glam. You look like a very fabulous Jewish mother. The hair's been blow-dried, you've got your red lippy on, you've even changed your earrings. How excited are you about having this guest? Excited and anxious.

Why anxious? Because he's a food critic, Jess. He has a food programme on Radio 4. Does he? He knows his stuff. Mum, I looked on his Wikipedia. Yeah. He's written fiction.

Has he? He's got a book called The Marble Kiss. So he's written fiction, plays piano. I wonder if he can cook, actually. That's a good question. Yeah. Then that do do and then that don't critique. Might be.

But we are excited about having him. This was very much, he was on your wish list, wasn't he? Absolutely. And we made it happen. And he lives near. Lives near. So I won't be pissed off if it doesn't work. To be honest, I think that that was the biggest pull,

that you lived down the road from him. Take me through the menu, Mum. Chicken soup with matzo balls. Possibly not my lightest. Bit upset about that. Explain what a matzo ball is to people, to the goys out there. A matzo ball is like eating a cloud. Well, it should be, but mine's going to be eating like a thundercloud, I think.

It's matzo meal, which is a kind of flour meal that you mix with egg and then you boil. And what did Marilyn Monroe say about matzo balls? Is there any other part of the matzo you can eat what a doll she said that to arthur miller i like that when we decided this menu what did you say when in doubt go native it's the clearest soup you've ever done explain why it's the clearest soup you've ever done because i've sieved it through a tea strainer to make sure it had no bits in it so it's like clear consomme yeah we've left no stone unturned this is like yeah love sheer love hot blood sweat tears i don't yeah and i the the salt beef is still boiling i don't know to take it out i don't even know salt beef rests i don't think it does haven't you done it before you've done yeah i have but the stakes weren't quite so high darling anyway it'll be fine but i'll have to lift it out and

do it on a chopping board we're bringing back aside from a previous podcast just because it works well it's potato kugel yeah and it is really good and lots of people asked about this um tweeted in and asked about how to make the potato kugel. So maybe put the recipe on Instagram. Maybe we'll start putting the recipes on Instagram. No, we'll save them for the book. Okay. I have to say, Mum,

I've been critical of many of your meals, but you know I love your food. Your chicken soup is faultless. It is sensational and I have never found another chicken soup to match your chicken soup cats is deli you shit on it walsley walsley montes love montes but under seasoned watered it's just like yours is so wonderful so i feel like it's only right that we serve love darling thank you it's only right that we serve it to the food critic, the Jewish food critic.

There's some matzah there as well for him to have. What we like to do is sprinkle the matzah on the restaurant. The thing is that I think that people either like kosher stuff or they don't. They're kind of frightened by it. Oh, my God, it's here. Yeah, let's go. Okay, all right.

Here we go. Let's go. Can I get you a drink? Oh, go on then. What do you want? Do you want red, white? White would be lovely. White, yeah? Okay, not brown.

Is it too hot in here? No, no, no. Because I've got salt beef on the boil. Have you really? Yeah. Have you made your own salt beef? You did tell us not to make too much of an effort, Jason. No, no, I did.

She didn't salt her beef. No, I've made chicken soup with matzo balls. And I did go to the Haredi shops in North London to get boiling flour. Oh, darling. My matzo balls aren't as light as normal. But I like matzo balls. They're never meant to be light. Yeah, but I like them like little clouds in your mouth.

But Jessie says she likes them firm. I like them with a bit of a bite, to be like. Yeah, but I like them like little clouds in your mouth. But Jessie says she likes the firm one. I like them with a bit of a bite, to be honest. And so we've done hot salt beef and then potato kugel. Do you like a kugel? I'm off the carbs, but for you. Can you cook? Yes. Because I can't eat out every night.

No, but like, okay, so who's the better cook, your wife or you? That's a lovely question, Jessie. Well, she listens to it. Yes, she probably, well, she might do. She makes a point of not paying a massive amount of attention. It's just like my husband. Yeah, he goes, well, you know, I get to live with you. Why should I have to listen to you?

She would say that I do the show cookery oh okay the alpha male lift the meat cleaver above the head till it glints in the okay moonlight shouting death or glory um she is a brilliant baker um and yeah we have different skills her baking and her pastry is yin and yang yin and. So what's your meal that you'll do for like... It's quite a variety. Okay, but like your fave, your go-to. I'm very happy if there's a large lump of lamb braising in the oven for seven hours. I think a braise...

I think one of the worst things with dinner parties is too much cooking. Yes. So the solution... I mean, in a way you've done exactly that, but everything happened hours ago, didn't it? All the real cooking took place. Well, one yesterday, we still were arguing at about four o'clock about who was doing what. I put granulated sugar in the pickled cucumbers instead of caster sugar.

I don't think you'll give a shit, to be honest. Yeah, and she was going to put... I don't think on a kind of microbiological level that would make an enormous amount of difference. No, exactly. This is like, she's really mean. Head chef is really mean. But doesn't all the granular sugar dissolve?

That's what my son said. Yeah. But she was just stressed. She was worried. Who you're about to say has a degree in microbiology, I think. No, he's a doctor. He's a doctor. Okay.

I just thought I'd get that in. Should we eat something? It's your podcast, darling. Well, yeah, I feel like, just because I didn't realise, this is a fictitious book, is it? It's a novel. It's a novel. I write novels, yeah.

Well, I haven't written a novel for a few years, but I do write novels. You do everything. I'm a, yeah. Well, I haven't written a novel for a few years, but I do write novels. You do everything. I'm a whore. Look, a blackly comic epic of ambition, power, and chicken soup. It's like I knew, isn't it? My parents were baffled when that book was published, because they had no idea where it had come from, quite recently. Because you weren't a practicing Jew? Well, we weren't, no.

Although... But you are Jewish. Yeah. You feel Jewish. because you weren't a practicing Jew well we weren't no although but you are Jewish you feel Jewish you know enough about my mother you haven't mentioned it Avila Shalom she's been gone a while she was wonderful she was a wonderful woman

thank you very much so Claire was very ambivalent about her Jewishness on the one hand we'reire was very ambivalent about her jewishness um on the one hand we're all a bit ambivalent so there was no god in the universe whatsoever and yet she was a hackney jew and um long before i wrote that in 98 she wrote a thing called the running years in i think 1982 which sold enormous i think i've read it i the running years in i think 1982 which sold enormous i think i've read it i think you probably have i think i don't think there's a due of a certain age in britain who hasn't read it there is there is this point i have to be said where most of

your listeners are going who the hell is his mother please yeah absolutely so my late mother who died in 2010 was an agony aunt a vice columnist called claire rayner in an age when these sort of things existed i don't know does deirdre sanders really count these days but back in the 70s and 80s you know agony is that yeah um and so yeah she was a novelist she was actually in many ways she was very similar to what i do except her subject was premature ejaculation. Sorry, what were you offering me? Do you want matzo with your chicken soup? I have got some challah.

I like to sprinkle it on the top, but I don't know if you like to do that. As my 18-year-old son says, you do you. Do you want two matzo balls? Just give me one to start, darling. Are they? Give me two. You'll get what you're given. I've actually got the clearest soup I've ever made in my whole life.

Oh, that is a beautiful, beautiful thing. But I think it's the hardest matzo balls you've ever had. Do you think? It's a beautiful soup. Did you clarify this or did you, in the old classical way? It was so dark. I boiled it yesterday and it was so dark. I thought, shit, what's gone

wrong? So I put it through a tea stra so dark I thought shit what's gone wrong so I put it through the tea strainer mmm there goes supers would you like some matzo to go on thank you so you're on a low carb diet then I'm most of the time am except for when I'm reviewing reviews you have to do wait anyone but I sometimes end up hiding them sometimes have to do a week? Only one. But I sometimes end up piling them up. Sometimes I have to do features. And at the moment, I'm writing a new book. And that has certain demands upon me. What's that about?

Are you allowed to say? Yeah. It won't be out until September 2019, but I can say. So whenever I'm doing one of my live shows, we have a Q&A. And one of the questions I'm always asked literally every show is um if you were on you know you're going to be executed in in the morning you're on what would be your final will right so Jesse scratches that one off uh the questions and I reply I reply and I say I'll be honest if my life was to be taken by the state in the morning, I will have lost my appetite.

That's the best answer. But... No, no. I got to thinking about it. And all the people who are eligible for last meals, which is not a pretty collection of people, they are the terminally ill, the suicidal, and those on death row. They are the least suited to eating this brilliant meal.

And in fact, when someone's asking you that question, what would you eat if there was no consequence? If you didn't have to hate yourself in the morning, if you didn't have to think about the implications. That's a better idea. If you didn't have to. And so I've decided that the idea of a last meal, a last supper, is so brilliant that I should not let the small fact that I'm not dying

get in the way of me having one. So you have it every day? No, I'm going off in pursuit of the ingredients for my last supper. So the book is a kind of, it's a perfect vehicle for memoir. Because each chapter is an ingredient. So it starts with bread and butter. It moves on through oysters, snails, pork. Lots of pork.

Snails would be on your life. You can't have pork. What? To be fair, we have prosciutto. snails pork lots of pork it's so treff it's so you can't have pork what well to be fair did you did you really say that no you can have

whatever you want come on I can bloody I mean you can have whatever you want but that's a real mixture snails oysters

this is the point it's my last meal it's not yours no that's very fair that's fair enough and if I there's a I have this kind of emotional relationship with snails. And so they are a marker for exotica in food

or for the things that people won't necessarily eat. I do love them. There are a few places in London that do them brilliantly. But it's as much about what they stand for and about the adventure through food and the adventure of appetite. This sounds brilliant. I have so many questions.

Lots, obviously, about food. But I'd like to talk about the Jay Rayner Quartet. Are you slightly baffled by this? No. We all know about it. I like food and I do music. We're pretty much, we're basically new best friends.

Right. This is your quartet. Yeah. Where do you play? When do you play? This is an album that you've given me. Thank you so much. We,

so we have a home base. Yeah. Which is a lovely thing to have. And it's a slightly complicated story. But inside, do you know Brasbury Zadel? Yes. Right. So at the far end of Brasbury Zadel,

if you come down the stairs, you've got the Crazy Cox, which is their brilliant cabaret room. It seats only 80. That's what the fire regs say. And that's what it only ever says. So you're never going to get wealthy playing the crazy cocks but it is the perfect perfect room um so it's home base so we we have a residency there we're playing um next month once a month nice uh which is really nice thing to have where else do

we play so we do we do the festivals um Cheltenham Jazz Festival we're doing the Gateshead International Jazz Festival uh we've the Gateshead International Jazz Festival uh we've done Bath International Snake Proms we've done Ronnie Scott's a few times so we we we do the stations of the Jazz Cross or the Jazz Cross stations but who are you and because I guess for me I've started in music and then kind of turned to food well doing a food podcast whatever that is you I'm I presume you've been playing forever, but is it because you just needed a break from having to talk about food? No, it was accidental.

Oh, okay. No, it was time, I mean, who would ever plan, who would be arrogant enough to go, I am the restaurant critic for the Observer, but now I think I'll launch a jazz quartet and go and play Ronnie Scott. No, it was utter chance. So here's the story. I have been playing piano for 40 years.

How old am I? 51? 40 years. Where did you go to school? Where were you brought up? That's such a cliche, darling. Go on. Hampstead. The other one, haberdashers. Haberdashers.

So I grew up in Harrow. And I learned to play piano. I did two years of lessons. And then I got drawn into synths. I dyed my hair yellow. I bought a Juno 6 and an SH-101 and looked moody. Amazing.

Those are really exciting synthesizers. I'm imagining, you know, like Ross in Friends. Yeah, yeah. It was awful. Awful. Okay, perfect. But when I look back at what I really wanted to play, I remember this thrill when The Cure released Love Cats,

which is basically a West Coast swing tune. Love, Love Cats. That is a great song. And then shortly after that, there was this moment, my other half, Pat, and I had been talking about the music of the early 80s, mid-80s, when Everything But The Girl came along and Working Weak and To A Certain Existence, Charlie. And these were all chart. Yeah. And Working Weak.

And To A Certain Accent Charlotte. And these were all charting bands. And they were all jazz. They weren't even jazz tinged. They were jazz. And somehow they charted. And so I started playing a lot from then. I had various lessons.

There was a moment when... Oh, Pat sings. So the key to this is the singer is my wife. Oh, my God. So here's what happens. I am big friends with a guy called Joe Thompson, who is musical director of the Ivy Club, which is not the Ivy, it's the club above it. And Joe and I have been friends since university.

Where did you go to uni? Leeds. Okay. And we stayed friends. And I would go and do the live stuff on a Friday night at the one show. And then I'd go into the Ivy Club on a Friday night where they'd have a jazz trio,

and a fantastic one. They'd be a changing roster of side musicians with Joe. And one Friday night he got up and said, it's your turn, turn to play. And because he knew I played. I never played with another musician. It was the most terrifying thing that had ever happened to me.

Though I'd been live on TV in front of millions and I hadn't really moved my heart because I can do live TV standing on my head. But playing all of me, only the chords, because I couldn't do the tune, was brilliantly terrifying. And I wanted that feeling again, so I went back the next week able to do the tune as well.

But I didn't just want to be the guy who can do all of me so I came back with a new tune and then in that room I learned everything you need to be a jazz musician it turns out that jazz musicians care about their food many of them read me um and they were mystified enough to allow me to sit in and I got to sit in with the most extraordinary musicians and then um just to move forward a little bit I was then asked to do 5x15 which is a bit like TED talks they ask you to talk for 15 minutes about a personal passion and they probably thought I'd want to talk about Bray's daughter or something but in fact I said can I talk about playing the piano for 30 years and not being very good because we don't talk about the things oh yeah no we get there and I

said things you're not very good at we don't talk about them so I talked for 10 minutes about that and then played and at the end somebody from Jewish Book Week came up to me and said that was great can you do an hour and I said I can't do I'm crap but thank you for listening for an hour and she said well you've got a year and so I went all right then and for some reason I said yes and in February 2012 so literally uh six years ago um put the quartet together which was made up of musicians that I knew through the Ivy Club and my wife who's always sung and trained with some of the biggest names in British jazz really oh yeah

it's it's what makes the thing is that how you met her through music no through just being fabulous students um and we we did a gig at King's Place for an hour wow and I thought maybe it's a bit of a waste not to do this again. And then bit by bit, you just keep taking gigs. And there were certain key moments along the way. Clearly, Ronnie Scott's Sunday lunch is a hell of a gig. You did that? Mm, we've done that three times. Wow.

And we recorded an album. The Jay Rayner Quartet, A Night of Food and Agony, live at Brasserie Zadel, featuring Jay and his wife singing I mean I'm sorry I think this sounds fabulous you look terribly handsome you do well unlike the person no no no no look well I've got a huge crush on you all right my son's got a huge crush on you he'll go out he's coming back in yeah he can't actually he called you he called you his icon. Yeah. Just played some kugel. I just do as I'm told. Do you like, I like English mustard with my salt beef, but you might prefer a yellow mustard

or Dijon. Have you got some Dijon? Yeah. I'm a bit of a Nancy when it comes to English mustard. This is great salt beef. This is great salt beef. It is great salt beef, Mum. Yeah. I'm sure this is asked a lot,

and it's probably a bit of a redundant question because you have a column, but I still would, I'd quite like your go-to, family's favourites, like ones that just kind of don't ever do you wrong. So the question that i can't answer because people ask me all the time and i just shrug them is what's your favorite restaurant i don't know i don't have a favorite restaurant i have a restaurant for different times in

different places so if me and my other half are going out for dinner and we just want to be looked after it's really boring but it's probably going to be the ivy or the wolseley or bentley's on swallow street right bentley's is an absolutely brilliant seafood restaurant it's rich at corrigan's it's extremely good incredibly reliable you sit at the bar they'll open oysters for you properly and um it's yeah it's glorious and corrigan's cooking is always spot on and at least in the dining room he's a lovely man um apparently he's a nightmare in the kitchen okay um so there's those like my mother yeah no no change there then um but then you know for chinese yeah um i have a kind, I'm a big Sichuan food head.

Do you go Silk Road? I have done. But the thing is, restaurants that are right on my manor, I don't tend to go out to. No, I just don't tend to go out to. If I'm at home, I'm at home. Isn't it convenient? I quite like a local place. Yeah, but he goes out for dinner all the time. So when's at home he probably eats in right yeah um i haven't been to silver for a while

i've got quite a few takeaways from woolly woolly over the years which is a great situation in camberwell uh i must tell sandra brilliant situation down in deptford called sanctia uh that was superb but in town bashoo is still really reliable there's a place on gerrard street called four seasons okay which does the best cantonese roast duck okay anywhere right great and um but i sneak off there by myself that's my so if i'm recording i do a show on Radio 4 called the kitchen cabinet kind of panel show about food and we record in the evening so what I tend to do is I make sure to get lunch and I will slip off to the Four Seasons get a table for one copy the New Yorker sit with my back to the door so no one can see me portion of the Cantonese roast duck, monk's beard with minced pork and chilli,

and I'm very happy. So it's that. Where would be your celebration, family celebration, where your son would like as well? This is a terrible confession because I think I've bred monsters. Are they really picky? No, they're not really picky.

It's just, so the oldest... Do they critique? We're going after, you know, like at Christmas. And I said, so we've got to go out for Christmas. He looked at me and said, Ivy! As this is called Table Manners, what is your worst

table manner around the dinner table? Well, mine? No. Other people. That you No, other people. Experiencing other people. Eating with your mouth open. It's just repulsive. I cannot bear it. It's eating noises of any kind.

Did you used to have big family meals? Yes. Was your mum a good cook or your dad? I would have said a few years ago maybe 20 years ago i would have said yes my mother was a good cook as time has passed um you've realized you've eaten some really good milk and let me ask a more difficult question how long ago did your mother shuffle off or was she still with us nine nine years ago nine years ago all right so we're in a we're in a similar zone yeah um did you have the same as me i always had the same food on monday the same food on tuesday the same food no i didn't have that mom was a working mom she was a working

mom so one of the things that she would do was that she had adapted the demands of motherhood to working life which meant that i was quite old before i realized that chicken didn't necessarily completely collapse because she cooked she always cooked chicken in a chicken brick oh yeah one of those that she put it well put it in the oven at 120 degrees for eight hours and see what you've got left basically you didn't need teeth but it's all right because she had a big career so um well she was trying to give you a home meal yeah she was trying to do all of that and so i'm i'm not entirely convinced that she was a good cook

she had a standby for whenever the grand what was people were coming when a publisher was coming. So what was it? And it was a coulibiac. Oh, that's fabulous. It's salmon and rice wrapped in puff pastry. You've done that before! I've done that before. And I've done also, I did a vegetable

coulibiac. There was a particular moment where she had to cook dinner for this grand table of people, including her publishers and her newspaper editors and Ariana Stassinopoulos. Oh, yeah. Who went on to... She was big time in the day. In the day, back in the 70s. And then she went to the States and became Ariana Huffington, who created the Huffington Post.

Huffington who created the Huffington Post. Oh, right, right. But at this point, Ariana, who was a bright young thing down from Cambridge, was hanging out and, what's the word, in a relationship with Bernard Levin. Yeah. And Bernard Levin was this huge... He was a huge... Columnist for the time. He was the great intellectual of his day.

Political columnist, yeah. A great sort of brain of his day, but he was also a massive food head. He knew his stuff. And my mother was terrified that she had to cook for Bernard Levin. And she was going to say she was sitting with her secretaries in the office one day and said,

what the hell am I going to do about this dinner with Bernard Levin and one of her secretaries even looking up, typing away, sell tickets. But she did Kooliby out for that. Can you get a reservation anywhere really quickly? Yes. Jesse, can you help me get reservations anywhere very quickly

or would they just tell you to piss off? Where do you want to go? I don't know. I just want to see how I try my luck. You have to use... What is the trick? You have to use... What is the trick? You have to use that privilege very, very carefully. All right.

So could I get a reservation anywhere? Not quite. So, for example, on rare occasions, someone has asked me if I could get them a reservation at the Fat Duck. Right. And I have done it, but I hate doing it. Yeah, it's like guest list for me. Do you like the Fat Duck? Yes. Snail porridge?

Yeah, it's great. Have you had it? Mum, you haven't tried it, so shut up. If you haven't tried it, you can't say. I don't like bloody snails. I wouldn't like snail porridge, would I? Oh, wait, we don't like snails. Have you had many snails? No, I couldn't eat those. They're like... Oh, hang on. You say you haven't eaten them, and you say you don't like them. I couldn't eat them. Well, then you can't say you don't like them.

I can't even bear the look of they come up slugs up here. No, no. I'm really sorry. You cannot express an opinion on something you've not tried. Do you eat everything? Yes. Is there anything you... Apart from Heinz baked beans.

I hate them. What? Oh, why? What's wrong with Heinz baked beans? Slippery, slimy. I've never liked them. That's how I feel about snails. Slippery and slimy.

Oh, but I've eaten them. You haven't tried them though. Listen, I've even eaten cold Heinz baked beans on camera for Susanna Reid. The things I do for money. Have you eaten snails? Yes but I felt like I needed a lot of garlic and butter on them.

So the fat duck was the one that I felt. Anyway I think you have to be very careful about it. Yeah of course. And I phone up with sounding slightly embarrassed when I be very careful about it. Yeah, of course. And I phone up with... sounding slightly embarrassed when I'm asking to do it. Do you always use your name in the reservation?

Yeah, of course you do. Or will you go under a weird name? If I'm reviewing, I use a pseudonym. Okay. But then they'll see you. Well, then I've turned up. But there's nothing they can do. As one great critic once said,

it's very hard for a... I've yet to find a bad restaurant that becomes a good one because I walk through the door. So I book under a pseudonym. They don't know I'm coming. How important to you is the Michelin star? Not at all. No.

But two things should be said. One is that there is nothing wrong with people wanting prizes. Yeah. And that chefs want a badge to aim at is entirely fine. So I don't slag them off for wanting, you know, that chefs want to aim at Michelin stars. The problem is that the aesthetic of what you need to get a Michelin star just seems a bit weird.

What is the aesthetic? Like, go on. Well, it all seems to be posted not on the food on the plate. A one star kind of does, but once you get above being one star, it's all about, you know, teenage waiters ferreting in your lap

and which some people get off on, but it's kind of unnecessary and weird. Yeah. That said, I am fully aware that I spent an awful lot of my career dancing around Michelin-starred restaurants. So is my kind of eye-rolling about it all solely to do with the aesthetic or solely to do with that kind of my diamond pumps are pinching,

ooh, I'm just bored of Michelin-starred restaurants? There might be a bit of that. And I don't blame people for going out and wanting to try tasting menus and all that stuff and chefs expressing their passion for creativity. It just isn't what I'm necessarily into. So you're not a fan of the tasting menu? I would hope never to have to experience one ever again. Why?

Because they are tedious in the extreme. Because every time you get something get a something lovely comes along you get one mouthful you get one mouthful and it's gone and then sometimes they don't know where to stop there's something that tends to happen with me again this really is diamond pumps a pinching job yeah um they take one look at me and then they start throwing extra courses oh yeah there was one in california where a chef came out and said did I win and he'd served me 26 little bits of this and that it was like although I have to say that tasting menu I took Alex to for 30 years was the best thing I've ever eaten in Argentina and Buenos Aires what's it called it was called

Eel Latino and he was a Colombian chef but he did seven courses. But seven's all right. There were little. I mean, there was guinea fowl. I won't go beyond eight. I'm sorry. If they have those, I'm sorry. I think it's too much. Jessie, these were little mouthfuls and little amuse-bouches and things.

But they did, like, guinea fowl and mole. Life of hell with the ware. No, this was. No, I won't do more than eight. I'm telling you. If they move to a ninth course, if they throw in an amuse-bouche and a pre-dessert, I'm than eight I'm telling you If they move to a ninth course If they throw in an Amu's boot And a pre-desert

I'm done I'm done I'm out of there Just tell me a bit of gossip Right Is John Kermode really sexy In true life? John Kermode?

Yeah Do you mean Turode? Turode John Kermode John Turode I got mixed up Who is John Kermode? No Kermode is another word for toilet.

No, there isn't. No, but the K-E-R-M-O-D. Mark Kermode. Mark Kermode. Who went to high school? Got mixed up. Right, John Turode. Is he lovely?

That wasn't what you originally asked. Is he gorgeous and sexy? Is he sexy, did you say? I wouldn't know. Okay. Does Greg... Would you do Greg Wallace? Turn it off you say? I wouldn't know. Okay. Does Greg... Would you do Greg Wallace? Turn it off. No, I wouldn't do Greg Wallace.

Right, should we have some pudding? Right, so Alex is... Alex went off travelling and he's our... He's a really good cook and he really is... You go and get them, Jess. So he really takes care of things. not like me shoving it on. He does everything beautifully.

This is honey cakes with pistachio and lemon ice cream. And all of this has been made by Alex? Yeah. He's better than us. Look, we missed him in the first series. He left us to travel. He buggered off. And now he's back.

We're putting him to work I think that's very very good Shit Jessie you don't know how to do it I'm sorry She's the like a bossy Did you make the ice cream? Alex made it. It's good right?

Should we just call him? That's a really good lemon ice cream It is the best. We thought about marketing it before everything goes wrong. His lemon ice cream. Let's just say. He'll be really rude to me. Say it's who it is.

Or he won't answer. Answer. Maybe he won't. No, he does that sort of stuff. Does he? Bastard! Right, well, you're going to have to say it to him. I'd be writing very good things.

Oh, Alex! No, this is delicious. I think it's the best lemon ice cream I've ever tasted. They're not bad either. They're gorgeous. He's a really good... Cool. He's a really good cook, but he's also just very good at sweets.

Jay, help yourself I am I'm sorry There's no politeness Anymore All the listeners know Jay is going for His second portion

Of lemon ice cream Alex got the Ice cream maker For his bar mitzvah That's fantastic He bought it With his vouchers It is the best ice cream Yeah no it really is That's fantastic. He bought it with his vouchers. Nevis.

It is the best ice cream. Yeah, no, it really is. And he's been using the same ice cream maker ever since. That lemon ice cream is just, it never... It is, it never fails. It is the most stunning. And I've tried to make it, but I don't make it as well as him. You're a pudding person, aren't you? I try not to be, but I am.

No, I'm an everything person. I have to be an everything person. But you have a sweet tooth. I don't not have a sweet I am. No I'm an everything person. You have a sweet tooth. I don't not have a sweet tooth. I've only had two and you said you'd had two earlier in the day. Yeah. It's fine. I'm not gonna be judged. And also Ed Sheeran had four sausages like you've still got like and these are tiny. And I tell you there were ginger pig sausages that were that big. The man said it will only be one each. He ate honestly four, four. And I thought we were proud of him. I like a boy with an appetite.

Have you got any vegan friends? Have I got any vegan friends? Yeah, my son's girlfriend is vegan. And you like her still? I love her. She's gorgeous. Okay, that's great. And she is a very good corrective to our household.

Did she come for christmas no no not for christmas but um i i cooked for her and she is brilliantly rye as a way of looking at the slabs of meat as they appear out of our fridge and just keeping us in our place okay i actually have an awful lot more time for the vegan position than the the dairy eating vegetarian position because the vegan position is absolutely philosophically pure because if you eat dairy as a vegetarian the thing you're closing your eyes to is all the mail yeah all the mail calves that are being bolted in the head because they're not able to produce dairy obviously because they're male at a day old, obviously, because they're male, at a day old.

So as a dairy-eating vegetarian, you're as deep-steeped in blood. Well, you know, you should just eat more veal, because we don't create veal anymore. It's all just like lamb. So that's one thing I have a particular passion. Jay Rayner doesn't mind vegans. No, no, I love vegans. You love them.

My one feeling about non-meat cookery is that it should be good because of the fact, not in spite of it. So do not try to feed me a vegan sausage. That's not a sausage. It's a lack of imagination shaped out of soy or oats and desperate. No imitation. If you want to make a moussaka, a sheep is going to have to die. Just accept that. I'm so glad I didn't do my pre-lentil bolognese for you then.

Well, that's a kind of thing. It's a pre-lentil stew. But then there's all these people who like gluten-free, but they're not really. That really, really drives me insane. Yeah, me too. So if you are celiac, it is a really nasty condition. Yeah, it's a terrible disease.

And is she pointing at you in a way? Well, I'm not. You have been gluten-free. Oh, Alex, sorry. We're going to have to go back to this. Hi. Alex, please meet your icon, Jay Rayner. No, you are now my icon.

Because this is a staggering ice cream. What is the secret to this ice cream? That would be telling. Well, I mean... Please, just tell him. All right, can I ask you a couple of quick questions? Do you do a custard base? No. Or do you just...

It's cream and you're beating in a curd of some kind? No, no. No, it's literally... Get on the mic. It's cream, three lemons, the juice of three lemons, and caster sugar. And then just churn? Yeah.

And that's it? It's a mix for churn. With a buy a mix for churn. Please go buy me. Yeah. Also, Jay's had two of the cakes. Oh, good. They're Jewish as well.

So am I. So, yeah, back onto gluten-free. If you're a celiac, that is a very nasty condition. And the one advantage in the boom of gluten the gluten-free movement is that it does provide real celiacs with a wider range of products however there are an awful lot of people claiming to be gluten-free who are not they're just picky eaters who are trying to control the world around them through their eating habits because that's who they were as children if they're feeling

bloated as a result of eating bread it's because they've eaten too much bloody bread. Just stop it. Yeah, I agree with you. There is no genetic reason why we should not be predisposed to eat grains. There is history going back 100,000 years to grinding down grains to release carbohydrate and protein from them. There has been no increase in the celiac population. There's just a lot of people

claiming to be lactose intolerant and they say can't eat cheese. Well, there's no lactose in cheese. All of this stuff is just people trying to control the world around them through food and don't even get me started on clean eating.

Clean eating, the idea of a morality around food, that food is clean or it's dirty. It's not. It is just food. Stop it. Anyway, there you go. I'm really loving the ice cream.

I could ask you so many more questions. We could keep on talking about food and jazz. But who wants to listen to a podcast beyond 49 minutes? Well, I do. I could with you, Jay. Please come again. It's been a pleasure having you. What we really want is you to become our friend.

Okay, well, that's happened, hasn't it? So that you'll come to my table again. Thank you so much for being a guest on Table Manners. It's been an absolute pleasure having you. He'd like the lemon ice cream the most, Mum. Because it's... He didn't even touch my coleslaw. Didn't he?

No. But that cucumber salad was a winner. It was alright. Well, Jay Rayner, lived up to your expectations. Lovely. Really lovely. And he was political. And, yeah, I like a good political conversation.

He knew a lot about food. Felt as strongly about gluten-free as I did. Probably not strong enough about vegans but there you go that's only because you see another side another argument no i mean he's a really bright intelligent lovely rounded man isn't he he's funny he's funny as your mum would have said up grandma what he literally does every job she was saying his spare time is a teapot yeah he does everything really i mean everything yeah novelist musician musicians uh comedian you don't remember his mum his mum was like a fantastic novelist and she was this agony aunt huge personality very very like him well it was a

real pleasure yeah it was great good fun wasn't it really good fun how do you think the food went well i mean he ate it didn't he matzah balls like bloody bullets i didn't mind the matzah balls no i didn't mind okay well jay rayner a pleasure to have him i not gonna lie i was slightly scared to have him in the house. What were you scared of? You didn't bloody cook anything. Jessie was scared. Of what, darling? Please tell me. Well, he didn't eat my coleslaw, so there you go.

There you go. Well done, Mum. But he said to me, did you clarify your soup? That's like, that's MasterChef the professionals right there. That is like, did you see how clear it was? I've never, ever done that ever in my life. Thank you for listening to Table Manners.

If you enjoyed the podcast, just like Jay enjoyed the food tonight, please give us a five star. What do you think Jay would have given us? What for? For the food. At Moss, everything. I think four I mean I felt

you could have talked more about your music you were very kind of reserved about your music and he was very more forthright about your music

because mum it's not a podcast about me it's a podcast for the yeah the pushy Jewish mother I don't need to talk

about myself anymore this was supposed to be an outlet for us not to talk about me if you've enjoyed our podcast please give us five star we won't take anything less well we will i'm not being a 4.56 person anymore i'm telling you my uber rating the music you've been listening to on table manners

is by peter duffy and pete frazer thanks so much guys um please subscribe because that actually helps us go up in the charts and it's been produced by Cup and Nuzzle. Thanks so much. We'll see you next week. Bye. Bye.