Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S3 Ep 3: Tracey Thorn

Episode Date: June 13, 2018

Tracey Thorn. Singer, songwriter, novelist, one half of Everything but the Girl - I absolutely loved chatting to her. As a singer we have been likened to each other but I hadn’t realised how many similarities we actually had. We talk about stage fright, hypnotherapy, taking your family on tour and the one question journalists always annoy us with. This episode is best served alongside a martini, a dose of summer sunshine and Everything But The Girl’s ’Missing” on the speakers. Cheers! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

hello and welcome to our podcast table manners with me jessie ware and my dear mother lenny hi hi mum how are you i'm all right it's nice to do one in daylight it is yeah we're doing a lunch today yeah for a woman who weirdly i've been likened to a lot with singing and who I think has a wonderful voice and has one of the most kind of known pop songs of the last kind of 20 years. Which one's that one? And I miss you Like the desert's mystery

Oh, I love that song. And I miss you Yeah, see, everyone knows that song. Is that Everything But The Girl? That's Everything But The Girl. However, we have the singer from Everything But The Girl, who is Tracy Thorne. Tracy Thorne has got her own solo project under her own name

and has had an album out this year. It's either called Record or Record. I'm not sure. Potato, potato. Well, it's either a verb or a noun. Yes. And she's also a novelist. She wrote a memoir in 2013,

which is called Bedsit Disco Queen, How I Grew Up and Tried to Be a Pop Star. Her last book was all about singing and singers. And I'm very interested about that, being a singer, but also kind of she talks about the technicalities and what makes a good singer and yeah I'd like to delve further into that. What is on the menu today mum? I've made a kind of Vietnamese dish which is salmon poached in a lemongrass and ginger broth with noodles and greens and vegetables. Lovely.

Light. Light, very light. And what's for pud? It's a chocolate truffle torte that Alex made with raspberries and cream. And a meringue base. Yeah. And then we zested some tangerine into the cream,

which actually hasn't really worked. It's fine. Mum was trying to look for her off rose water that she used. She went, I used it 10 years ago. I've never opened it. It's brand new, so I don't know where it is.

Yeah, okay, cool. Tracy Thorne, coming up on Table Manners. I don't think we've done very well on that introduction, darling. It's bloody shit, your mouth's not working. I know. Would you like to have a go? No. Hi. This is my mum, Penny. This is Tracy. Hi. Would you like a glass of wine?

Or would you like... We didn't know whether you were going to do that, so we're down if you are. Okay, amazing. Cheers. Thank you for having me. We didn't know whether you were going to do that So we're down if you are Cheers Thank you for having me Cheers My nephew James

I promised I'd mention him Who's 33 He said to me have you heard this brilliant new Jesuair podcast Were you already booked for this by then No no Oh my god so we were chatting about that he was telling me all about it i had heard about it i hadn't listened to them

at that stage um and then i got the call on my way home on thursday do you want to be at some of that texting going james you won't believe it but i've just been up oh that's so nice well is it james yeah absolutely loving the book I mean, he may be my biggest fan, but I have seen you tweet me sometimes. Yes, I have. You've been there from the start, Tracy. Always on Twitter. I always remember, like,

you'd always be really nice after, like, a Jules Holland performance or something, which is the most petrifying. I don't know. You've obviously done Jules. I have, and it is scary, isn't it? It gets a little easier once Jules is... Jules is the sweetest man in the world.

I think he's really good, actually, at just making you you feel at ease and I'm pretty hard to feel at ease especially when I don't do the performing live bit anymore but when I still used to do that I still used to find Jules terrifying but you know well I mean just because I don't yeah I don't particularly need to I never it was never my favorite bit so I had a break for a while and then I've come back to you know recording again but I sort of feel I'm going to just do the bits I love now is it that's the virtue of getting older and you can just choose to you're not is it record or record um I say record I think but I don't I'm it's kind of meant to be a bit ambiguous so you could it could be either but you're still making

music yeah yeah yeah with no intention to perform it live no so which I find quite liberating because then especially with this record I didn't have that worry about okay so this is very electronic you know how we're going to reproduce this live because we did all that you know back with everything with the girl in the 90s and I did all that how do you translate an electronic record into being live you must have all these conversations how much of it you want to be live how much do you rely on program stuff so to me it's quite a relief not to have to even have that thought in my head i can just do whatever i want and also when you're singing a vocal not thinking oh this one's going to be a bugger to sing you know that i know i'm singing now do i really want to do that because i have to do that every night i hear you i've absolutely buggered myself from

doing such high bloody songs that are great and you've got agered myself from doing such high, bloody songs that are great. You've got a bit of auto-tune in the bloody, in the older studio. How do you feel about auto-tune? Have you ever used it? Well, I mean,

I'm sure it's been used on my vocal, probably when I'm out the room. I mean, I remember Ben produced a singer, I'm not going to say who, a few years ago. And when she went out the room, they used a bit of auto-tune and then she came back and said it's sounding amazing and we're like we've got this new compressor the magic compressor

makes it sound amazing you know I think it's useful to fix the odd notes yeah that's just Dave you're doing that thing of going over and over and over again till you kill it stone dead you've got a killer performance yeah and i think why not fix it i'm interested because you have this book about singing yeah and i talked a bit about auto-tune there because i i kind of brought it up as one of these things that now people have an opinion out about even if they don't know much about it and also people will say you know oh i don't like auto-tune but i like this record and you think well there's probably a bit of autotune on that record. It's like they think they can tell.

And I think what they mean often is that kind of sound when it gets used, you know, to death on a vocal. So you can hear that sort of slightly plasticky sound of a voice that's been put through it. But, you know, again, when that's used deliberately, it creates its own sound. And sometimes I quite like that. If you're doing it deliberately to get a sort of slightly artificial effect, then i think it's again like a flow rider i mean he really you know the t-pain whatever but i i don't know i've i'm i my my producer of my first record dave was like a purist and he wouldn't let me have it on the first record um he called it wide tuning if i was a bit out of tune and it was fine and then I worked with loads of LA people

and they were like literally they just stick it on and loads of the top liners now they will go and try and work out melodies with huge amounts of auto-tune on to try so they don't feel embarrassed when they're trying to like

work out a melody and they're singing to a kind of riff or whatever but anyway but I thank you very much for being so uh lovely about me and to me on Twitter I've always just like it's always been amazing having like your name pop up and kind of but I just I so you will never perform live again or never yeah I'm never say never I mean you know things change and what I'd need now is a kind of reason to want to do it that would feel like a new reason because I did it for all those years and again you know I used

to suffer from stage fright but I had the sort of motivation to get through that but you know that drive to prove myself get out there on a stage be this kind of person so I'd need something to happen that would make me think okay that's a good reason to do it I don't want to get into doing it just in that slightly routine way so you never enjoyed it yes I did enjoy it yeah yeah I did um but not always and because of the stage fight yeah I think so also there's bits of it that are just boring don't you think I mean speaking honestly I mean I've just again having done it for years you know it does become a bit it's like the routine bit, it does become a bit...

It's like the routine bit of it, doing the same songs over and over and over again. I don't know how things changed for you from after, post-Missing coming out. Yeah. Did it just go kind of stratospheric? Well... Like, it was relentless? Or was it... Because you've been in Everything But The Girl since the 80s?

Yeah, yeah. And... We started in about 83. So then I And carried on And I was still touring until Like 2000 So that's you know 17 years of it

Quite a lot of albums And a lot of tours And I don't know if I didn't know this But the You're a duo in Everything But The Girl

And the gentleman in The duo Ben Is your husband Yes Yes so all those Were you always going out? Yeah, right from the beginning.

Yeah, yeah. We got together on our first day at university. Oh. Yeah. And within three months, we'd sort of formed a band together. So yeah, we were both doing English. He was doing English and drama. You did English, didn't you?

I did do English, yeah. Yeah. I wasn't very good at it. It really put me off reading, to be honest. Oh no, it it's really bad but yeah so again so that you know for a while it was fantastic you know those years of just we did all our traveling together you know it was lovely um but I do think there came a point and then we had kids you know the other thing that's that happened when I I stopped her you know it was partly because we had kids and so then that developed another whole part of our life together.

So now, okay, so we're in a band together and we're a couple and we've got kids with parents. So it just suddenly seemed like too much together. So we've kind of extracted a little bit of our lives apart. When did you have your first child? I had twins in 98, so they're 20 now. Okay. Yeah.

And then we carried on touring a little bit took them with us on one tour 18 months old they were how was that a nightmare actually i mean i hear people say they managed to make it work and i'm full of admiration you've done the same thing this is i found it hard yeah so i just came back from touring with my daughter taking yours with you yeah but i didn't have twins. No. And I had my brother coming along to help, so I think we had an extra pair of hands. And I don't know whether you had a nanny coming along. Well, you took a nanny.

You'd have to, because you're both on stage. And I remember thinking, this will be fine. You know, this is fine. You just can have a nanny. But then, during the day, you know, the kids wanted to be with me, obviously, so I'd be sort of doing, taking them out to the nearby park, and then you'd get on the bus and go to the next venue then you take them to the sound check and let them play on stage that would be fun then they go and have their tea backstage

then i would take them back to the hotel and try and get them settled to bed and then i'd rush back when i tried to i think right but then there's that moment when you find yourself back in the dressing room you've got to put all the slap on your face, and go out on stage and be a jazz hands thing. And I found that quite weird, like going between being mum and then pop star. That's exactly it. I've just gotten exhausted.

Can you get the dishwasher? Because Alex stopped it. It's so funny, because I finished my tour on Sunday. She didn't come to the uk she came to a bit of it to manchester whether where our family was but i completely understand what you're talking about it's this thing where you know we tell me like please tell me if you disagree but like i feel like we're indulged as it's a job that's rather indulgent it's hard work but it's indulgent yeah no i think so you're indulged

to be ready to get into this zone yeah but when you have a kid yeah you feel guilty if you're trying to get into that zone you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't and it's like i felt like a headless chicken most of the time i felt like i just wasn't doing either job very well yeah um which i mean again i'm not saying you're trying to put you off no no no i think you should because if you can make it work but um i i went through those stages of feeling like i'm not giving them any attention and i'm out on stage with my head all over the place and so it's tricky so that was quite a big factor so it was but also don't forget at that stage i'd been doing it for a long time so i had that luxury of thinking okay you know what i've done it i've achieved we'd had the whole hit with missing and everything I think I felt I've sort

of proved everything I need to prove if I have a brain now it's like what are your your girls doing so they're both at uh uni now one's off doing biomedical science whatever that might be and then the other one's an art student so they've decided to be the polar opposite to either of them want to get into music no i don't think so but then we've got a younger son as well who's 17 and he's in a band and plays the guitar all day long so we'll see what i know about everything the girl and but the girl um i'm forgive me if i get anything wrong but you kind of started as this rather it was quite jazzy yeah it was a little bit i mean ben's

dad was a jazz musician so a little bit of that came from him um but it was also that time it's like the early 80s um in the wake of you know punk and post-punk coming along sort of stirring up rock music which you adored you yeah i was that was got me started but then there was that sort of movement to like bring in all sorts of other influences so you know people were listening to jazz and ska and reggae and all sorts of things so they became like this real melting pot for a while and that's kind of what we came out of not about rock and roll particularly all about all sorts of other things was it weird for you then to have and i know you've talked about the fact that you were experimenting with dance and beats before missing yeah such a hit yeah but was there a frustration with the fact that missing was such a hit with this kind of it was it the remix yeah todd terry's remix was the one that did that because

i know people are very nice but i've got this remix of this song called running which i'm very proud of and the remix is far bigger than the original. And I love the remix. And it really annoys me when people go, I love Running, the remix. And I'm like, I shouldn't be annoyed, because it's bloody good. But I'm like, you should listen to the original.

But actually, your original was pretty similar to the Todd Terry one. It was. And I think also, you know, we'd been around the block so many times by then and we'd had a couple of hits already so there was always that and then and then our career had taken a downturn so honestly when Missing came along it was just like a kind of massive late bonus a late unexpected goal we weren't expecting it when you say taking a downturn yeah like what

like yeah no musically things had tailed off a bit sort of late 80ss, early 90s, and then we had a bit of a resurgence, and then, you know, suddenly out of the blue a massive hit. So I remember just thinking, this is a bonus. Didn't expect this. So I didn't mind that it was a remix. I thought, whatever, you know, works for people. And did things change drastically once that came out, kind of with being recognised and kind of your life did it change

I mean yeah it did I can remember that period you know for the sort of couple of years after that was the only period when I remember feeling like I was sort of living that kind of pop star life and people were sort of reacting to us like we were pop stars and again I think because we've been doing it for quite a long time we just kind of thought this is fun let's enjoy this you did it you enjoyed it yeah it was good where does everything but the girl come from it comes from a furniture shop in howl quite literally so this was their slogan painted in huge letters on the front so the idea I think was you know they can sell you everything but the girl to make your home complete.

Oh, how cool. So it's like corny. And we thought it was funny. We thought we were going to make one single. So we thought, well, let's have a kind of slightly funny throwaway name. We won't have to be explaining this for 35 years, will we? Such a good name.

So I don't know whether if we'd known we were going to be explaining it for so long we'd have come up with I've just got to tell you about Antonis he's a Greek friend yeah I've got a house in Greece and so I've got lots of Greek friends only a little house it's not grand but Antonis gave me that record and said you know I do think Jesse and Tracy have very very similar there's something very similar about both people make this like connection with me and you right Jesse's very flattered yeah god I'm very flattered no so Anthony gave me this record when they stayed here and um he when he found out you were coming for lunch he said he was ready to fly over just to see you and he said

that he ran some sort of fan club in Greece for for you Anthony Skilkos and he wondered if you'd remember him do you know what that name does actually sound okay he was a DJ he he DJs and he's a graphic designer and DJs but he he still adores you. So he was very, very excited. Oh, I'll say hi. Yeah, I'll say hi.

So then he bought me the album, which is how it introduced me to you. Okay. So, and you're a fantastic lyricist. Yes. Just wonderful. And I wanted to ask about lyrics because.

You mean how to write. Yeah, please can you tell me how to write. But I've always been really annoyed by this question that i got asked a lot especially when it was quite public that i was getting married around the second record and they were they were like you make such melancholy yeah i've heard people i've seen people ask you that how can you write songs now you're happy and i'm like oh that makes me cross, actually. Does that make you cross? Because it just, I just think that it's so, it's such a simple kind of, it just makes no sense to me.

No, it doesn't. Well, also, it diminishes the idea that you're a creative artist with imagination and ideas in your head. Well, I wondered whether you've ever had that. Yeah, all the time. Because people are aware that you were in a relationship with Ben and your... How can you write about, it. Yeah, all the time. Because people are aware that you were in a relationship with Ben and your... How can you write about... It's like, well, what? So all I can talk about is what happened in my life.

You know, you take... I think you take experiences from everywhere. Totally. And things people tell you, memories that things might have happened to you in the past, or, you know, you use your imagination, don't you? I... There was something you said in your book about...

It was about you said in your book about it was it was about you in your first band and you sung in a wardrobe was it wardrobe yeah and you like hid in the wardrobe because you didn't want people yeah i mean that was i was still only about sort of 17 and you know in my first band and in someone's bedroom rehearsing and i hadn't sung at all at that point i was the guitarist right so they said you know and our singer didn't turn up one day so they said can you sing and I said well I don't know never tried so but I said I certainly can't do it if you're looking at me so I'll get inside the wardrobe and I took the microphone and literally shut the door behind me so do you play instruments yeah I play guitar and a bit of piano I mean I play enough to write did you learn as a child

I did I had piano lessons I I wish Jessie had had one. Well, I don't know. It's no help. I don't know. I think it would help me start an idea at home better than... I'm rubbish now. I mean, all I learnt to play as a child was scales and then a bit of Mozart. You know, that's no use.

Especially when you're like into jazz. Yeah, so now I sit down and I pick out these hopeless little chords. But that's just a start. I just think that's all I need. Well, only to do that, only to write songs, really. I sit at the piano. Just if only you could do that. I know, well, I've been intending.

I failed you. For a pushy Jewish mother, you did fail me, actually. Really? No music lessons? He's a piano teacher. What about singing lessons? Have you had singing lessons? Yeah, I did, actually. I had about singing lessons have you had singing yeah i did actually i had

classical singing lessons did you yeah but just because it was the only option at school yeah okay great day jane humphries without reading music yeah but i mean and also couldn't go and do the grade eights because i couldn't do the so i think i had to do like the trinity version or guilt or which everyone's easier to get the grade i i did um and it wasn't that i was bothered about getting that title yeah it was more i think it's really helped me with kind of how i look after my voice i was gonna say it must be useful you must have learned stuff yeah i think it was helpful like helpful for projection yeah kind of just even though actually i'm pretty bad with my breathing on stage i definitely can i i well i I've got better because I've realized it's

a marathon and you can't lose your voice and that was always my terror that was the big thing just it's gonna go you know it's because I've basically got a kind of the good thing about my voice is it's intimacy you know I'm good up close I'm good sounding like I'm whispering in your ear so then having to project and do that night after night that was it used to put such a strain and I would just stand there thinking it's gonna go in a minute it's gonna go and it hardly ever does but you just yours did one yeah mine did once yeah very early on I think that's why it stayed with me you grew up here just outside of north london yeah suburbs what was dinner time at your family's like did you eat together what did you eat you know so when i was a little kid so we're talking 1960s um i grew up eating completely standard British food of that time.

So a really narrow range of food. So literally lamb chops, liver and bacon, steak and kidney pie, fish and chips, a roast on Sunday. Got it. So that was it. Literally nothing fancy, no frills and not really anything you you'd call foreign in inverted commas and then then in the 70s i think my mum got a little bit more into sort of convenience things i remember her getting a plug-in deep fat fryer so we started having more fried things and that was considered a bit of a sort of step up because we thought that was a bit more sophisticated you know having the fryer was it mostly kind of chips that you were frying and yeah fish i don't know what i've never had

my grandma had a deep fat fryer chip ham i think it was mostly chips there's nothing like a deep there's nothing like home-cooked chip no they're very good good. But what it meant was growing up, I didn't experience any other types of food. And I was a bit of a fussy child anyway. So, you know, I grew up eating quite a narrow range. Fussy eater? Yeah. What did you have for dinner last night? Now, you know, you're a pop star.

You've probably travelled the world, eaten a lot of different foods all over the world, I presume. How's your taste buds now yeah no it's fine I mean so last night was an almost typical one which was me cooking for six people because it was all the kids and one of the girls boyfriends was around as well and so I did this kind of meal which is the epitome of what I've cooked really for the last few years which is basically a meal that will suit everyone even though everyone kind of wants to be eating something different yeah so I cooked a few I grilled a few steaks put them on a plate in the middle there was a salad on the table there was some tomato pasta on the table there was some broccoli some mushrooms and some chips so literally

the six people but that's the six people around the table probably all had something slightly different two of them are vegetarians so they had the pasta and the broccoli who were the vegetarians my daughter and her boyfriend okay me and ben like had a steak and a salad the other two had more chips do you know what i mean so it felt like we're all eating together i mean i've i've got really good at doing that so i do a meal where everything comes to the table in separate things six people might be eating they might all be but it feels like a pain in the ass well but it's just a way of meaning you all eat together is that important to you then because yeah yeah so i've always done that with the kids and we've always had dinner time but it doesn't mean i'm cooking anything necessarily particularly fancy

but it just means we all sit together and it means i suppose i do put in a bit that bit of extra effort to accommodate people's different ritual be able to have that chance to have a conversation and chats and yeah so we've always done that but so that's the kind of that's my cooking now it's those sorts of family meals do any of your family do the cooking or is it always you the cook in the family i am pretty much the cook ben does it occasionally and he's perfectly capable of cooking a meal but i think we've just slipped into that thing that couples do where you each have your sort of areas of responsibility you're a londoner do you eat out a lot not masses i don't think

when the kids were younger bizarrely we had a ritual routine where we'd eat out once a week because it was that thing of doing that we didn't never called it that because it's such an awful phrase but we did at least it's so horrible puts pressure on you but i think we did just think there has to be one evening a week when we leave the house together and sit down and someone else does the cooking and it was brilliant i have and we wouldn't go anywhere fancy necessarily maybe just around the corner to the local um now they're a bit older and life is a bit freer anyway and quite often it's just us on our own anyway eating dinner there is quite such that feeling that you know we've got to go out i would have thought maybe you'd go out a bit more now well i think we will eventually we'll get back into the swing of it

once they've properly left the evenings now are so kind of unpredictable, whether people are in or out. I never know who's in for dinner. It's quite hard to plan. It sounds like you. Quite hard to plan. But are there any particular restaurants that you absolutely love, whether they're local or...? There was a lovely place, annoyingly, that's closed down in Camden called Market, which was a really nice restaurant on Parkway.

And it was like a sort of New York restaurant and it had that vibe of being like a proper neighbourhood restaurant but like really good food and you know bare brick walls and quite simple it wasn't the meaty place

was it it wasn't massively meaty I think I've had a Barnsbury Barnsby chop what are they called Barnsbury

I think I have yeah Barnsley chop yeah it wasn't it was kind of like a modest kind of place it just didn't yeah

that was really nice I mean for a proper slap up, you know, let's go out for dinner, the Wolseley is amazing. Love the Wolseley. Can't beat the Wolseley. Whoa. Thank you.

I hope you like coriander, because there's a lot of that. Sorry, should I take... Sorry. No, not at all. No, no, it's amazing. This is really good, Mum. Thank you, Jessie. Mum, will you just tell the listeners at all. No, no, it's amazing. This is really good, Mum. Thank you, Jessie.

Mum, will you just tell the listeners what we are having, and Tracy? It's salmon poached with lemongrass and ginger, with, I don't know, you add all fish sauce and things, and then vegetables, a bit kind of Vietnamese thing. It's delicious. Do you like it? It really is delicious. Fantastic, thank you.

This is not what I'd normally be having for a Monday lunch. It can work on a night that the vegetarians aren't in the house, maybe. Yeah, that's true. So how did the Massive Attack collaboration come about? Because I guess you were doing similar things at the same time. Well, kind of, although them asking me at that moment still felt like an odd combination you know we weren't at that time considered to be part of that dance world particularly and they were even though they were trying to branch out and you know

end up being the group they are now so this didn't come out yet no oh okay no so i did i did the work with massive and that i think came out and then missing being a hit at the same time because i can remember being in new york with massive doing a little promo trip and i remember being in the back of a cab with them and g saying to me um oh i've heard i just was at a club last night and i heard this remix of missing you know did you know that was out there and I was like yeah yeah obviously but that so that was before it had been a hit or anything um so it was all sort of around the same time did you tour with them a lot only a little bit they did a few a few gigs in the UK and Europe and I turned up and would just sort of come on and do my my turn because you know they had that

sort of sound system thing going on where they turn because you know they had that sort of sound system thing going on where they'd have you know guest vocalists that's the kind of dream it's like this turn up do one song yeah do you ever miss singing live i know you you've decided you don't want to do it but is there any kind of do you like when you see other performances you kind of do you get that nostalgia no i mean i stage? No, I don't actually. I mean, I go and see other people. And I do sit there before they come on thinking, oh, I wonder if this will be the moment that I'll think. And actually, I sit watching other people going, oh, I'm glad that's not me. Really?

Yeah. I just feel like, you know, I've done that. I'm happy now to be the audience. I'm happy with the work I do and what I've, you know, got the chance to do. What was your favourite thing about being on stage? Things. The encore, if I'm honest. Tell me why, because you were near the end? Yeah, but near the end in that sense that you've done all the hard work

and if you're at the stage where you've got an encore, it's gone well. And there's even that vibe in the audience of sort of slight release you know all the hard work of the set has happened there's a kind of euphoria there's that slight euphoria in the crowd there's that feeling on stage that the hard work is all behind you and i did used to come out on stage for the encore with a real sense of sort of relaxation that was quite liberating and i think if i'd been able to feel like that from the beginning of the set i'd have are you still nervous yeah have i got coriander um tell me what i have won't you i will do just because i'm a guest don't not tell me i have to go and see a hypnotherapist about it because i just felt

like i wasn't kind of being present i I tried that. It didn't work. No. Well, I don't think I wanted it to work if I'm honest. I think I went a bit sort of, oh, go on then,

see if you can do anything about this, but not really. I think I wanted it to work and I had this, I think it kind of did work. It wasn't like I go into a trance

every time I go on stage. I think I wasn't, I think he taught me how to enjoy the moment more because I was so, I'm such a trance every time I go on stage. I think he taught me how to enjoy the moment more. Because I'm such a worrier. And I'm already thinking. I've got my mum's fucking saying sing out in my ear, ringing. Gypsy Rosalie. You know, what's the...

Oh, Gypsy. Gypsy? Yeah. Did you go and see her? Yeah. We saw it on Broadway, didn't we? We saw it on Broadway as well, yeah. With Fantastic.

Amazing. Yeah, it is amazing. But I am the sing-out person. But I don't think I was actually appreciating the people that had bought a ticket and who were in front of me and trying to actually just enjoy interacting with them. And I think everyone does it differently. And I'm not saying that I have found the best way. But for me, it gave me so much

more pleasure to kind of immerse myself with the crowd and I think before especially in the first record I didn't know what I was doing and I was kind of apologetic for being on stage because do you feel like you've got a kind of bigger confidence now that you are a writer

do you feel like your persona like when you go and present you read an excer you know, like, do you feel like your persona, like when you go and present, you read an excerpt from, you know, the book, and do you feel more comfortable with that than being a singer? I do. I mean, I feel now like I've got to the stage where everything I do in my life, I feel confident about doing, and I feel like I can handle it. And I'm so, you know, I don't know whether that's, again, just to do with getting older and being a bit more at ease in your own skin. But you do seem very comfortable with yourself.

Yeah, I think I am. And again, I think accepting even the things I don't want to do and just thinking, OK, well, I don't need to prove that to anyone. You know, I don't have to do this just because other people think I should. Did you feel like there was an expectation of you carrying on once you'd had children uh by the label or by Ben I don't know did Ben want to carry on yeah Ben would have definitely and I think to be fair I was a bit uh dishonest about it for a while even to myself I think I did that thing of saying, oh, we'll have kids, but it won't change anything,

which is sort of naive and that thing of you don't realise how much it will change. But I do think for a year or so, I was a bit dishonest and saying to everyone, it'll be fine, we'll go back on tour soon. And actually in the back of my mind, I was thinking, I don't think this is going to happen. But it was quite difficult to actually say that to people.

And then there was a period when I remember us having a meeting with, I think, Record Company and our tour agent. And I just said, look, one solution could be that we do more festivals, because that's an easier way of playing to a bigger number of people than touring. You could just go and do a festival. So we had a summer where we did a few festivals. And then the last gig I did was the montreux jazz festival um how was it and it was great i remember it being quite a good gig and enjoying it and then on the way back to the airport the next morning i started

feeling sick and then again the next morning and then thought okay and then i was pregnant with third child so at that point i thought oh oh, okay, life is trying to tell me something here, that actually even doing festivals now is going to be quite hard work. So that was when I stopped completely. So that was the last gig I did was Montreux Jazz Festival, which seems now 100 years ago to me. It feels like another life. How long ago was it?

18 years ago, 2000 I mean you kind of you've touched on this bit but how was it being on tour with your boyfriend I don't know maybe you never fought or anything but like would would like it change the atmosphere on stage did you feel like you kind of could keep this quite professional maybe you didn't need to be professional I don't know yeah most of the time it was good because we did get on mostly very well um so that was good i do remember a tour of japan when we were actually sleeping in separate hotel rooms and i can't remember why now but clearly things weren't going so well and then there was an earthquake in the middle of the night and then you got into bed with each other i remember coming

i'm running around going fighting my way along the corridor thinking i'm not gonna after all these years bloody die in a separate hotel room to you oh mum's just bought him pud i don't know if you are you a pudding person i am a pudding person we're having wow mum do you want to say what we're having? It's a chocolate truffle tour. Thank you very much. We will not be offended if you don't want to eat all of it. And yet I will.

If you do, I will respect you. I'm eating that, come on. And then, yeah, some kind of orangey tangeriney cream if you want it. Oh, thank you. So you're a pudding person, are you more of a savoury or sweet person? No I think I'm a bit of both to be honest. I'm happy with anything I've given. That treat of other people doing your food for you. You're a very easy guest. Thank you. This is very good. It's very good. No you're not sure? I think it's too chocolatey.

It's nice. Nothing is too chocolatey for me. If you have enough cream with it, it's perfect. You need cream with it, definitely. You need more cream obviously. You definitely do, don't you? I like it with the meringue bottom. It's really good. What would be on your death row slash desert island meal? Okay.

That you had to have for the rest of your life or it was you know or you are happy to eat before you're about to get executed because i'm not a massive foodie so i don't have in my mind this sort of you know exotic range of dishes so i think i would choose a meal that would remind me of i don't know like food from the past that was so in a way I still have this idea of the classic sort of 1970s dining out meal as being something I still aspire to so like a great prawn cocktail yes you know prawn cocktails like when they came back into fashion I was so delighted oh I love a prawn cocktail. Am I allowed to say that now?

Yeah, I am. So I feel like that's allowed. So I would say a prawn cocktail. With like iceberg lettuce, would you have it with? Yeah, nice chopped up. I mean, you get a fancy one. Or do you have it with bread? I haven't had a prawn cocktail for so long, actually.

So nice chopped up iceberg lettuce, Mary Rose sauce, prawns. We should do that. We should have done it. Very nice. Yeah sorry that's a good one. Then I would be worried that was about to be executed. But that's shellfish Tracy. Oh god now I've. You've buggered yourself. I've buggered myself by saying shellfish. Yeah so prawns are my exception to shellfish. Yeah then so that's my 70s kind of starter. For my main course one of my favorite things in the world is uh melanzana parmigiana me too the best so it would be my main but it's not really you're dying you're about to die i would want to eat people have it as a starter but you're

so full once you've eaten it it is my best my main course i just think it's one of the most i could have made that i made that this week actually it's so isn't it just delicious i may nick that take them it's just the best thing isn't it yeah so that would be my main course do you ever make that at home yeah i can make a really good one what what's is there a secret ingredient that we should know about no not well do you fry your aubergines first yeah you've got to and i mean the oil content is yeah you actually do all the dripping and drying them but you've just got to fry your aubergines first. Yeah, you've got to. And I mean, the oil content is real good. Yeah, you actually. And so you do all the dripping and drying them, but you've just got to accept that they're deep fried aubergines, essentially. Yeah.

And then you make a lovely tomato basil sauce, and then you buy really good mozzarella. And parmesan as well. Parmesan in there. Do you go out for a melazzane pan and bolognese? No, not particularly. Although we've got a deli near us, Giacobazzi's Deli

Which is the most amazing Italian deli Which I've been going to for 30 years The same people have been running it for 30 years Renata hello Probably get a free melazzane now They're just wonderful And the most amazing Italian food You can go and buy a slice of it

And take it home in a little tupperware Lovely Pudding? Well as you can see I buy a slice of it and take it home in a little tupperware. Oh, lovely. Lovely. Pudding? Pudding, well, as you can see, I don't like chocolate. She has cleared her plate. Yeah. Anyone who knows me would say... Good night, Samoa.

No, honestly, come on. Anyone who knows me would say, well, if there's anything chocolate on the menu, Tracy will have that. Okay. So, I mean, it could be that, quite honestly, or... Did you... ...coffiteroles or, like, something like could be that, quite honestly, or profiteroles or something like that. Yes, yes.

What would be your drink, then, that you'd have with your meal? A martini. Ooh, dirty or just martini? Just a martini. Vodka or gin? Gin. Tracy, I... Gin martini.

Oh, that is where we do differ. I'm a dirty, I'm a filthy martini girl. I can go with that. But you're a gin just with lemon. Straight up, yeah. Best drink in the world, I think, honestly. So clean. I mean, it's basically a health drink, isn't it?

Clean eating, clean drinking. It works. It works. So you're a cocktail girl? I only really like things like that. I can't be doing with great big, you know, fruity umbrellas. I like Cosmos. Yeah, I like a Cosmo.

That's nice. I feel a bit naff ordering a Cosmo now, don't you? Do you know what I mean? She feels like Sarah Jessica Parker. So that's why she orders it. No, but I did realise it was from that. No, please, Mum. You knew it was Sex and the City.

But I did latterly, but I'd always like them because they're not too sweet. No, exactly. They're quite, they're kind of fruity, but not too sweet. They've got a tang to them. And they do knock your head off, don't they? I like that. Yeah. I like a drink that gets you straight away.

You don't have to. Would you like some more? I'm fine, you're all right. No, no, I'm fine. Do you have any table manners you think are not very good of yours or that you don't like in other people? Oh God, I don't know if this counts as table manners but i did actually tweet this the other day so i might as well say it out loud so i said something the other day online about how i could never go on master chef and cook pasta because my way of checking whether it's done is i take a bit out the pan on a fork and

bite into it and if it's not done i spit it out into the sink I think that's okay which is that all right yeah we're not spitting it back into the saucepan but it seemed like it's probably terrible table it's not quite at the table though are you watching last year oh yeah me too I love it me too do you watch lots of cookery programs uh yeah I do actually watch yeah I find it really relaxing just off because it's kind of after dinner, isn't it? You've had dinner, you've put everything away. Yeah, me too, I love it. And then you sit down and watch other people cook.

I just love it. I love it. So do you have a food crush, like either a critic food crush or a chef food crush that you like, you always go to their recipes? I mean, I would say Nigel Stacey because I did sort of learn. recipes i mean i would say nigel stacy because i did sort of learn i'd say i learned how to cook from him because i learned just basic things about what goes with what from reading his books um you know lemon and basil with chicken is amazing rosemary goes with this you know these just you know what i mean just those combinations which i think before that i hadn't quite just joined up things i was always working to a specific recipe.

But there were a couple of early books he wrote that when I read them, I just thought, oh, it sort of clicked. OK, so these combinations. So if you've just got a few ingredients in front of you, you know you can make something tasty. If you've got a lemon and you've got some garlic and you've got some rosemary, then OK, you're going to be able to make something nice. Tracey Thorne, thank you so much for coming on Table Manners. It is such a pleasure to meet you finally. Thank you. And to learn all about your life.

Thank you so, so much for being on this. Thank you for having me and thank you for your amazing lunch. I don't normally eat as well as this. Pleasure. Monday lunch done. Pleasure. Well, Mum, we... That was lovely.

Why are you sounding surprised? It was a liquid lunch, actually, wasn't it? Why are you sounding surprised? No, I really enjoyed it. You were not sure. You said, why don't I do something else? I did, but it was absolutely delicious. Did you think it was delicious, Alice?

Alice Editor is agreeing. I really liked it because the salmon was so beautifully cooked. I always overcook my salmon. It's interesting that Tracy watches MasterChef like I do. Yeah, Tracy Thorne, what an interesting woman. I felt really lucky to be able to ask her so many questions about kind of her career and just that confidence that she has that she could just leave a career behind that so many people want.

She knows who she is, Jessie, and she's serene. Really serene. And she felt calming to be with. Yeah. Because she's not anxious. She's not busy. She's just very, very calm. And she did eat all your pudding. I know.

She's a chocolate-like fan. I know. And it was quite sickly, I thought. Yeah, I mean, I just went to Cobox. Did you struggle? And I feel like I've undone every good thing that I did in Kobox By eating that slice of chocolate cake But it was really good

There was four bars of chocolate and a whole tub of cream in it Shit Right, back to Kobox I go Yep Thank you so much for listening to Table Manners I've been Jessie Ware I'm her mum, Lenny Mum, you've got to get better at this

What do you want me to say? You're not leaving an answer phone Like message Okay I don't know what you want me to say You say it Thanks so much Thank you so much

For listening to Table Manners But why do you do this like Faux polite You're not polite Like you're opinionated Thanks for listening to Table Manners. Give us five stars. That's the woman that I was searching for.

Thank you. The music you've heard on Table Manners is by Peter Duffy and Pete Fraser. And the podcast is produced by Cup and Nuzzle. Thanks so much for listening. Thank you. Thank you.