Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S3 Ep 5: Tom Kerridge

Episode Date: June 27, 2018

Tom Kerridge. Glad we asked him to bring a pud because his Strawberry Bakewell was so good we talked about it for weeks! Tom spoke to us about everything and anything - his diet, working alongside his wife, water being a secret cooking weapon and he even judged a Labneh competition between mum and I. What a lovely man Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with my mum. Say hi. Hi. And my baby is doing the worm. What are you doing? What are you doing? Breakdancing. Breakdancing. We're about to do the handover with my husband and he's taking her off to Dorset but we've got a podcast and we've got an intro to do Baby Burrows. Today we have a Michelin-starred chef. Is he Michelin-shut? Sure, sure, sure. She shall, she shall.

Go on, say it again. He's a Michelin-starred chef. Yeah, actually. Michelin-starred chef. He was the first chef, or it was the first pub, to gain two Michelin stars. Where is his pub in marlow so his pub the hand in flowers got its first michelin star in 2012 and then he got his second michelin star um later

on and it was the yes the first pub to have ever done that uh he has recently kind of famously lost a lot of weight i'm gonna going to ask him about that. Yeah, I want to know too. A few tips. His name is Tom Kerridge. And this is the first chef we've had on, I've realised. Oh, crikey. Do you think that's more daunting than a food critic?

I don't know. Actually. I think you were more stressed about Jay Rayner. Yeah, I was. Okay, the child is now rearranging the duck. I've never understood why you have ducks in the fireplace, Mum. I don't know why. I just like them there.

Are you going to come and say hi? Say hello. Can you say hello? Hello. Can you say frog? No. You can't have that on. That is such good words.

Well done. Okay, will you go and play in the garden now, please? Say bye-bye. Say bye-bye. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. So, Tom Kerridge, I met Tom Kerridge on a Radio 2 programme

and he was just the loveliest guy. And basically I did the thing where I was like, I'd love you to be on my podcast. I have tried some of his recipes and his weight loss for good. And? They're really good. They're really tasty. When you eat them, do you lose weight?

Yeah, obviously. Oh no, sorry, it's called lose weight for good. And I do want to ask him about the low fat because he uses quite a lot of low fat ingredients and i've kind of watched another netflix documentary and i've heard that you should use full fat so i'm kind of interested to see his take on that because i heard they have higher sugar but anyway um i don't know if it's actually open yet but he's doing the food in the corinthia hotel in london i think that's his first london spot um he's also got a butchers and pub under one roof which is called the butcher's tap and this is all in this place called marlo so yeah he's like the king of

marlo oh where is my in buckinghamshire it's bucket not it's marlo not harlow i was getting it mixed up no marlo he's also actually I think he's kind of had three Michelin stars to his name because his other pub uh the coach also got Michelin star and he runs it with his wife Beth who's a sculpt sculptor yeah and so I'm I'm interested to see how they work together as a team nice of him to coach schlep to South London I know it is really nice maybe he's going to the current theater who knows I hope the food's up to snuff well do you want to tell the listeners what you're doing well because we're doing brunch we thought we'd do sugar because it's low calorie low fat low carb low no carb no well yeah and i've also

made labner which you've ruined part of by over oiling it okay it's fine I would like to put this to the audience labner I always thought it's thick obviously but it does have like a smooth consistency yours was looking a little bit like over whipped cream fine I did what they told me to do the yogurt's been dripping from my cupboard door for 24 hours in a muslin it was very romantic cheesecloth cheesecloth i'm now a cheesemaker just lenny where the podcaster broadcaster mother and cheesemaker that's right i like it and then actually we thought that this would be a good time to relax and ask if we're having a chef we may as well enjoy them cooking a little bit so we've asked tom to bring a dish did you ask him or did he volunteer it we asked because we have got a a cake as well we do have a cake is it the leftovers from no it's a new one okay but yeah so we don't know

what we're having for pud so it's quite a straightforward one today um no fuss i think we were definitely trying to not overdo it if he's still on his kind of weight loss program. I think at 11 in the morning, you don't want a full lunch either. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, it's a good job Alex came back from... Alex the doctor. The doctor.

Who's just on a night shift. Have I mentioned who's the doctor? No. He just came back and suggested we put harissa in. He puts a whole pot of harissa in his chapsuka. Okay, I don't think we need to put a whole pot in. I didn't. I didn't get harissa. I did. shukur okay i don't think we need to put a whole pot in i didn't i

didn't get her i did i put half half a pot in okay it really is good addition to a shat shukur and i'm not seeing it in any other recipes probably because it's not shat shukur anymore it's a shit shukur no it's it tastes really good it's spicier though you don't like spice you can have all that no i don't i'll have to blow my nose but the lavender's got dukkah on it and some mint and it's a nice sunny day

and the baby is coming back hello where's she find the ball is that a dog's ball might be from Nestor is that a dog's ball yeah no don't eat it

don't eat the dog's ball Tom Kerridge coming up on table our first chef on the podcast yeah mr tom carriage thanks so much for being here it's an absolute pleasure thanks for inviting me um sneaky bit of lunch well a brunch we have kind of done i don't know if you've had breakfast already kind of what did you have i had two you've had breakfast already. Kind of. What did you have? I had two coffees, some grapes and a protein shake. So it's kind of breakfast.

Is that what you have now? Did you work out? I did, yeah. I went to the gym at six o'clock this morning. Oh my God. Gym at six and straight into management meetings from 7.45 and then off into here. Is that usual? Kind of that's just regular life now?

Yeah. There's no structure to my days. Everyone is very different. It's chaotic and it's mayhem, but we do always really try to put in between six and eight hours of gym every week. So that's the one bit of structure. Six to eight hours.

So that's more, okay, so you're working out every day. No, I normally do at least three two-hour sessions, yeah. Who, with a personal trainer? Yeah, yeah, yeah, three two-hour sessions. And then when we're not doing that, we'll try and get a swim in as well. But the swim can be flexible because that doesn't matter quite what time I do that. And is this a new thing then? Or is this whilst you kind of, because obviously you've lost a lot of weight and you've done a book,

Lose Weight for Good. But is this kind of, did it all come at the same time? Did the working out come after the weight? No, the working out came, so I was always swimming. And like even before I decided to lose weight, I was always swimming. And I was swimming quite a good distance. So it's always been good for, I find it good for cardio. I find it, it was, it was good for health. I mean, I was swimming about a good distance. So it's always been good for, I find it good for cardio. I find it was good for health.

I mean, I was swimming about a mile every day. But then when I decided that it was time to lose weight, the idea of getting into the gym more was becoming more productive. And also my diary was changing. So I was traveling a lot and doing a lot of different things all over the place. And if you're spending time somewhere else in hotels and doing things, they haven't always got a swimming pool, but they're more likely to have a gym. So I thought I needed to start working down that way.

And then it's become, I mean, I always need something to focus on. Me too. Slightly obsessive, slightly compulsive about stuff. So the gym and the numbers that you can hit in a gym, I quite like that competitiveness. Tom, when do you have time to cook? Well, I mean, if I run through my businesses, it's mental. It's become from being a chef to being like...

A businessman. Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we've got a butcher's pub crossover, wet lead butcher's tap. We've got the Coach, which is a Michelin star non-bookable space in Marlowe. We've got the Hand of Flowers that we opened 13 years ago, which was a two Michelin star space. First two Michelin star place. The first two Michelin star non-bookable space in Marlow we've got the Hand of Flowers that we opened 13 years ago which was a two Michelin star space

first two Michelin star place the first two Michelin star pub shall we yep and then we've got we're opening restaurant in London later this year

well that's got a good gym the Corinthia Hotel it's got a lovely gym yeah it's got an amazing spa I mean yeah it's amazing yeah I mean it's a good spot well done

that was clever yeah that was that was the sole reason we signed it was like yeah great yeah no it's a beautiful and that's a 90 cover big british brasserie so that's open in september so that's a huge workload at the minute and then there's you know there's tv production company that we own that makes the shows then there's the writing of the books then

there's the actual catering company then there's like there's always a huge amount every day so it's always very okay so when are you finding the time to like cook or you're just kind of having to rely on your brilliance kind of crew around you staff you know it's you build you build a team of people around you like like i think any successful business or anybody who does is successful it's not about the one individual it's about people and its team so I have people that have been with me for over 15 years so you know an all-key management they they stay and they grow and that's where they they take on the mantles and the spaces and they understand the

business I suppose brand and ethos and um the vibe and the feeling that they need to put out and then you allow you allow people to grow and breathe themselves. And that's really important, I think. People's personal development is huge for me within the company. So as people grow as adults, they also grow as professionals. And that's an amazing space to be in. But you've got a kind of brand of kind of warm and cuddly, along with Michelin star, which is high-end dining. How do you manage that? Because you're so approachable and warm and everything.

I think from the word go, all I've tried to always be is me. And that's really important. And that you cut, I come from a single parent family in Gloucester and you grow up with, there's no heirs or graces. And there's no, you know, I didn't learn to cook from my nan making cakes or anything like that. It was, you know, it was just a case of. Where did it come from? Actually, it was just a case of um where did it

come from actually it came from a love of the industry first when i walked into a kitchen as an 18 year old that was the space i loved i fell in love with the the vibe the atmosphere the late nights the hard work the graft the kind of people that you know it's real it was full of like like it's a bit like a pirate ship kitchens they're just full of like what were you doing at 18 what was your first job i started washing up i started washing up in a country house hotel and then just moved through to doing a bit of cooking doing a bit of prep work and then decided that you know this is the space i want to be because the people that i was involved with were amazing that you know chefs and the industry is just brilliant it's vibrant it's exciting it's

adrenaline fueled there's loads of people who tell you that social life and hospitality from the outside, people will think it doesn't exist. But the reality of it is... It's late nights, isn't it?

It's amazing. After it's all kind of closed, you stay up and... Yeah. And you know all the best places to get in because all your friends work in them.

So you're always getting into spaces. There's always free booze floating about. It's a great rock and roll industry to be in. It's very good fun. Why did you choose Marlowe? Because you've got...

Are they all in Marlowe? Yeah, they are for a minute. The three spaces are in Marlowe. So I was working and living in London for about 10 years and we wanted to find somewhere that was a little bit more accessible for my wife to be able to make art. She's an artist. So the opportunity... Yeah, she's a sculptor an artist so the opportunity she's a sculptor right yeah she's a sculptor so she was working for Sir Anthony Caro

um who's a major British artist um who sadly passed away a few years ago but she won she wanted to be able to make her own and the problem that you have in London is you might be able to earn the money but you can't afford the space for a studio or you have to move slightly out of London where you can afford the space for studio but then you're not necessarily earning the money so it's quite a difficult balance so we wanted to set up a business where we get that um I could cook and hopefully she could make art and Marlo's that perfect it's about 45 minutes on a good run on a bad run it's about two and a half hours into town but that will just happen yeah yeah but the reality actually no no but the reality of it is even in a porsche yeah yeah even in a porsche yeah you're still sat in traffic yeah yeah no one moves out for you in fact no one lets

you out no one lets you out it's even worse in a porsche yeah exactly so but it is it is quite it's an amazing space we knew it anyway it's very close to town, it's an amazing space. We knew it anyway. It's very close to town. And it's a, so it means that Beth, we're now very fortunate. We've met, actually, we've been married, it'll be 18 years this year. And we've moved 12 times since we've been married. Oh my God. And you haven't got divorced yet. Well done.

No, I know. It's amazing. Well, we're quite good. We're a good team. We're a great team actually, because we have separate lives. We kind of half work together and half not. We're very involved in each other's lives, but're both very separate well wasn't beth involved in the hand of flowers at the beginning it was through a grant of like was it through a grant

of no it was a lie it was a it was a through a lie it was through a we told the the we told the bank that we were going to do an extension on a small little house that we were living in and then we took the extension money and just took the tenancy off of a pub and then the back the bank had to back us and we moved forward and it was great you know the relationship with the bank is fantastic although for we did blag them at first and it kind of works yeah it kind of works yeah it kind of worked they're quite happy they backed us now i think so yeah yeah so so yeah beth ran front of house for the first i suppose she said she'd give me three years of making making the business work before she wanted to move away it

was about six really in total before she got to being back into the studio full-time so that was a so it was a big it was a big push and a big effort but now she's making work I mean she opened a huge piece about 18 months ago the the front of the Dubai Opera House. So it's a big five-meter sculpture. Yeah, yeah. So she's now internationally. She won the International Award for Sculpture last year as well. So it's a huge, for her point of view, it's been a massive investment in time and energy.

And it's now beginning to work well for her and her career. What was it like working with each other? I mean, it must have been highly, like, like really stressful it's a mixture of two things like it can be amazing the most amazing experience because the two of you together are pulling together to create something that's working that's brilliant but it also and also you get to spend time with each other because before I was just working as a chef and you're doing I don't know 80 hours a week somewhere and you never get to see each other but actually then working with each other is a big it's a massive it was it was lovely but then there's obviously moments of it's very difficult to find that divide between being

front of house manager and head chef or husband and wife and sometimes that cross is over and it's bound to because it's you know kitchens and restaurants are emotional spaces and then if it's a husband and wife team it becomes sometimes they were it was bumpy but i have to be honest 99 at the time it was it's because we work together as a team so it works but it isn't it isn't always fun i think in the first year of working together i think she probably left me free time so it's kind of like but do you get to go out on a friday night like tonight like friday night have a drink no relax or in one of your very different no no we're all yeah no we were always um we do we try to block off sundays we try to make sure that we have sundays it's family day yeah yeah yeah and then we've got two and a half year old son now so it's

like i haven't i don't drink i haven't drunk for five years and beth might have a glass of wine or gin and tonic every now and then so our lives our social lives are completely different because of i need not to drink so i lose weight but you just you just gave it up i gave it up yeah drink was an issue drink had become an issue in terms of both for for health-wise and mental health-wise as well yeah become an issue so it was it was a recognition of that and stopping it's kind of when you're doing a very high pressure job like yours i imagine you think i'll have a glass of wine that i'll relax and you have to find other ways of relaxing rather than depending on that i suppose yeah it's kind of i mean relax is the wrong word release is the release so it became a

yeah and it's hugely I mean you see it all the time I mean I mean you must see it in the it's the same sort of thing it becomes a drink so much yeah and it's it's a big it becomes a lifestyle a workout play hard ethic and that becomes a massive thing that goes on and i mean kitchens are um i mean there's numerous numerous accounts of i mean it's an easy place to get drugs it's an easy place to drink it's an easy place exactly yeah just part you know died and so tragic but he's had huge issues all his life absolutely yeah i mean i mean well mental health within the industry is something that it needs to be recognized and it's and it's a huge because the hours are so so not draining yeah it's grueling it's a job it's an adrenaline fueled um adrenaline drunky kind of job that's there's lots of ups and downs and um you know highly kind of charged kitchen atmosphere and then a release of it afterwards

and everybody going out. And it's becomes, it's an amazing lifestyle if you can control it. I think it's exactly like music. It's like, you know, when you're on tour, it's this habitual thing where you have like a fusion and tonics before you go on stage and then you go, oh, that was a good show.

I don't, because I'm really strict. Do you? No, but like, I just, I don't because i i'm really strict do you i just i don't i'm a control freak so i'm like if i feel out of control and i have to remember the words but you know other band members have a really a wild time um yeah and then it'll be oh you had a really good show let's have a few drinks oh it was a really shit show let's like have a few drinks so it kind of and it's all that late night end up, bedtime is three o'clock in the morning and that's just usual, isn't it?

So I think, and also, you know, a lot of my friends who've worked in kitchens, you know, it's a lot of Coke that goes around. Well, you know, and it's just kind of,

because you, and the extremes, the highs are brilliant, but you don't really have time to process the lows because you already have to kind of, you're on this. I think part of the reason is as well

because your job is in nightlife it is in an environment where it is in where people are already out it's not like you're working monday to friday nine till five in an office space and then you go out the weekend your every lunch and dinner is always high pressured and about people having a good time so you're involved in people's good times even though you're behind the scenes so you're already sucked into that atmosphere and it's quite easy for it to get out of control but at the same point you can't at the levels that we cook at and the levels that we perform at you can't be bad like you're saying you don't have a gin and tonic before you go on because you need to remember the words well yeah there's lots of people that can function whilst doing it but

we have zero tolerance of of drugs and alcohol throughout the day at the hand of flowers i mean if you've finished work and you go for a beer that's fine but there's nothing that goes on in between because you need to be focused on your job or just everyone knows you just know yeah someone was drinking you'd know yeah yeah yeah because everyone else is clean living and focused you know and it and also there's a slight generational difference now there's a lot of young chefs that are coming through that are much more aware of the food that they're putting in their bodies the way that they treat themselves the way that they drink the way that they take care of themselves i mean when i was 18 you quite likely

have a two liter bottle of cider and sitting apart you know 18 16 you know yeah exactly but now i think you find 18 year olds are more likely you know you see them wandering up the road with a gym bag and a protein shake you know it's it's there's a there's a big difference in people's understanding of what they put in their bodies have you adapted your menus to go with a kind of healthy living? No. No. No. So you still serve fish and chips? We do. Yeah.

Because I've got one of your earliest books where it's like pop a pop grub. Yeah. More refined, but like. Yeah. No, we're very, we don't change. We're very dairy focused stock sauces. We, you know, we don't use sugar replacement. We use sugar and chocolate and whatever.

It's just full on, I suppose i suppose french style full fat cuisine the i you know my personal choice like not everyone needs to lose weight do you know what i mean jesse wants to come and have dinner it's no it's you haven't well that's really kind of you but i i definitely always know but i've had to watch it yeah but you might, but you might spend two or three days eating healthily and then just go out for dinner. Like it's not, not everyone's on a diet all the time. And that shouldn't, my personal choice shouldn't be. But when you go out for dinner, you've got to let go of it, haven't you?

It is a complete lifestyle choice and balance. I think if you're on a diet and you go for dinner, there shouldn't be any letting go. There's no such thing as cheat days, I don't think. Like if you are on, either you're on it or you go for dinner there shouldn't be any letting go there's no such thing as cheat days i don't think like if you are on either you're on it or you're not so are you on the diet at the moment or have you kind of relaxed it now that you've lost the weight yeah so i'm much more i'm hugely conscious of what i eat i try to eat very little in the way of sugars i don't do very much in the way of carbohydrates i do a little bit now every now and then and i do i suppose i get carbohydrates from fruit.

I've always, I've always stuck with fruit, but my way of eating or my lifestyle choice is just because it's not, I don't even recognize it as a diet now. It's just, I just don't, I won't have a sandwich. You know, I'd have. Sandwiches. I know. Don't you think sandwiches are some of the best things on earth?

Yeah, but they're also some of the worst. I know they are. They are some of the worst. But I do love a nice sandwich. Like amazing, beautiful, crusty bread. Crusty bread with lovely sweet tomatoes and cheese. Gorgeous cheese. Yeah, but how many sandwiches are actually like that? How many people are driving past a garage and picking something up for lunch and no sandwiches?

Yeah, it's a process for me. So we've done... I guess we should crack on. We've done shakshuka. Love that. So low carb. We thought about you as kind of low carb. Thanks, mate.

Very healthy. Yeah. But then you brought the strawberry bakewell so yeah well i thought i better bring dessert and the good thing about strawberry bakewell is that you can have it as a slice of dessert but it also works as afternoon tea goes with coffee goes with you know you can invite some friends around if we don't eat at all it's fine well that's very sweet we've actually got book publishing meetings where people try and palm it off with our own uh our own meal yeah go for it yeah yeah go for it oh this old thing i just rustled it up because i thought it looked a bit sad the shakshuka i have got i wanted to add halloumi

just kind of in it but you don't have to have it if you kind of want to love halloumi just because i thought the salt and just kind of halloumi is amazing we've had a big discussion about i've never made lab labner yeah we did i'm now a cheese maker yeah but jesse thinks you put loads of olive oil in i said no leave it as a cheese and put the olive oil on okay i messed up but i think that it wasn't loose enough so i don't know why have you ever made labner before no but like you've had it yes so it's kind of it's loose it's supposed to be loose i think mum's looks like over whipped cream that's all i'm saying however the taste is lovely but i think maybe i should have loosened it up with a little bit of water what would you have loosened it up yeah water see what it says i did water is one of

those ingredients right that so many people overlook because you always think you never use it as a cooking ingredient but water is amazing because it's a texture alterer, but it's no flavor, it doesn't bring anything to it, it doesn't add seasoning, it doesn't do it. All it does is it works very well as a loosener. It helps emulsify things. Water is like one of the most discarded and underlooked ingredients.

Yeah, I'd have let that down with water so because if you think about putting olive oil in you're adding flavor I know and actually that I put too much flavor so we did two different batches and my one is a bit crap but that can be mixed in with the other one when anyway I think mum's is slightly not loose enough shall we say. Do you want to chop the eggs? I'll chop the eggs. And just, yeah, sorry Tom. No problem. Work in progress. And you're frying the halloumi? Yes.

Okay. Is that okay? Yes, great. No, I'd fried it. No, I fried halloumi. Halloumi's amazing. Do you ever coat it in flour? Would you have ever?

No, but I pat it dry with kitchen roll so it doesn't stick. So I pat it dry, yeah, before you put it into the pan. Do you really need oil then? Yeah, you need oil. Yeah, yeah. But not much. That is a good tip.

Thank you very much. Because the water that's on it, that's the sort of thing that will make it stick. That's what makes it stick. Yeah. Thank you. Right, I'll just do this. Mum, hit Tom with the... Right.

Okay, hit me with a question. Well, Jessie says it's your last supper or if you are on death row but i would rather say what's your favorite favorite meal that you love and if you had to go away on a desert island for the next six months what's the meal you'd like to have before you go different questions okay because if you're into a way of life like yeah like now i do very little in the way of carbs so if i was having to go onto a desert island and there's going to be no cars because you can have to catch fish yeah eat coconuts so we're already that sounds like a that sounds like a

delicious fish curry coming up there wow no but also no repercussions like you could just basically like not even think about it as a cheat okay i think so like if you were stuck on a desert island the one thing that you definitely want is is pigs on it because you can eat yeah you need everything from a pig like the whole lot also curing process right you could get salt from the sea you could make your own bacon you can make your own hams you could do and you can eat everything wow so so pork would definitely be there because you're all going to be there a long time like parma ham takes three years to age you know if you're going to be there a long time you take a couple of back legs of pigs and then you could be there for a long time the best answer

to this question yeah do you ever take your bear grill yeah do you ever take well you'd have to take curing things with you now you've got salt there you think salt is the main ingredient salt is the main ingredient in curing processes yeah yeah so salt but if it was death row dinner last one all right last dinner it would probably be it would be fish and chips and a can of lilt do you know what you're in good company because that's exactly what sadiq khan would have yeah amazing minus the lil yeah minus the little yeah i mean if it really was the last dinner it probably it would probably be 20 pints of stellar i gotta be honest not not not not a can of little but you know if it is just

yeah if it was just you know and then you get some reprieve maybe last minute someone goes no no no it's not definitely he's all right actually we're letting him off then i wouldn't feel so bad that i've had fish and chips in a can of milk that's what i'll go with and what's your favorite fish in your fish and chips well there's so many when it favorite fish or favorite fish for frying i mean favorite fish for fish and chips i like if it's going to be the last meal it's got to be turbot which is amazing the it's the king of fish it's amazing and it's beautiful texturing is fantastic deep fried it will be absolutely stunning like it's so robust to halibut i do yeah i love halibut i do i think she if that's the king of the sea then but yeah halibut is absolutely beautiful they are they're fantastic fish but they're not

that they're very expensive yeah they're expensive fish but they're not that they're very expensive yeah they're expensive fish and you go well you know if it's on a daily basis fish and chips is seen as kind of like a fast food you know if you sit down in a nice restaurant and have it it's okay the understanding of japanese three-star restaurants where they do tempura it's the same as fish and chips yeah so you can focus on it being really good but on a daily basis it was just for a fish and chip shop a flat fish is i think it works beautifully so something like place would be amazing isn't there a beer batter in one of your recipe books yeah yeah because i've used your yeah yeah they work

beautifully they're great for um i mean quite often you use sparkling water but the idea of getting a beer batter in it's just an extra layer of flavor that works lovely that works really nice with fish and chips and if you if you go on holiday which is your favorite country to go to to eat so um the whole of europe is amazing you know there's great food in italy in fr, in Spain. I mean, there's some absolutely mind-blowing restaurants in Spain, some great cooking. French cuisine is very much based on seasons and the taste of rich cooking, and it's absolutely lovely and very regional.

But over the last few years, I have to be honest, and its vocabulary of the country is very small in terms of food, but when it does it properly, it's amazing. And Greek cooking. I absolutely love Greek cooking. I think it's just awesome. Why has it got such a bad rap? Because it's really, I think it's great food.

I think it's got... I've got a little house in Greece. So we're addicted. And Jesse got married there. Yeah. And I love Greek food. And yet people always go, oh, Greece. It's not great food. got a little house in greece so we're addicted and jesse got married there yeah and i love greek food and yet people always go on greece it's not i think because it's always been seen as a holiday resort so you know spanish food at first was seen as bad you know when it was always cheap cheap

package holidays in the 80s and now and then greece is a holiday resort people only know it as holiday resorts and then i mean you can walk down a you know some like greek holiday resorts and then I mean you can walk down you know some like Greek holiday resorts and there's you know there's fish and chip shops and Chinese restaurants and then the Greek

authentic Greek cuisine is a really bad Greek salad and some really poorly braised lamb and you just go it's the best it's the best it's the best

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it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best it's the best On each step with Peloton, from their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner.

Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs walks and hikes led by expert instructors on the peloton app call yourself a runner peloton all access membership separate learn more at onepeloton.ca running mom do not mom's put my lab net out just to, like, throw me under the bus.

I accept it is not as good as yours, but I'm saying yours needs loosening up. Hold on. You're a cow. That is not correct. No, but... Look how she hasn't even dressed mine the same as hers. Yeah, but look.

That's got more... Too much olive oil. Yeah, but olive oil is flavouring. It may taste delicious. I think it's got a little too much of an aftertaste. Mine's nicer. See what I mean But feel mum's texture Excuse me

I did it the way they said Do you see what I mean She has put I mean it does look amazing She's a cow She's passed off There's one that's decorated With ducker

Yeah And she's basically shoved mine I prefer that taste yeah but actually could it be looser it could be looser they could both be looser they do both taste

amazing though combined maybe they'll be the perfect and a little bit of water mixed together will make the perfect excuse me I spent 24 hours getting the water out of it why would i put the water in it will you just explain to me because that's how they told me to make it yeah but it is delicious they they they the labna gods the labna gods said delicious thank you it is delicious um It smells amazing. I have to be honest, this is like the most

beautiful, perfect lunch, this. This is amazing. Oh, thank you. It's so sweet. Well, at least it's low-cal. We really did think about that because... It's lovely. Yeah, see, the thing is when food tastes like this, like this, smells like this, nothing about this feels like it's low-carb, low-calorie. No, you're calorie. It doesn't feel like it's a diet food or dish at all, does it? No. I mean, it looks amazing. The fresh herbs, they're massive. Fresh herbs are so important.

Yeah, never too many. All right, sorry. Tom, why do you think there aren't so many famous female chefs with michelin stars i think well it's angela hartner got to me yeah andrew hartner's got star she's amazing claire smith at core so she's just left restaurant gordon ramsay she was head chef there for three years she's just opened her own restaurant called core in notting hill and it's mind-blowing that'll that will win amazing amazing amazing there's some phenomenal many are there there's not many females in the industry actually there's not enough chefs in the industry full

stop but the females that when they get to the top it's a very difficult decision to be making to to get to being a head chef level and keep driving that forward i think it i mean it's like every industry it's it's one that's long hours i mean my wife describes it going that as women we're nowhere near as stupid why would we be doing that why were we doing those hours and working every weekend you know so it's it's it's a difficult space it's one of those places that is quite again it goes back to the lifestyle and the adrenaline and fuel kind of um space that it is and if it suits people then it's great if it doesn't then it doesn't it's very it's very and it's also an age thing i think by the time you're mid-40s as a chef you kind of feel that you're you need to have been slightly moving away from the kitchen because you don't want to you don't want to have been slightly moving away from the kitchen because

you don't want to you don't want to be the one that's putting the veg away on a saturday morning or cooking their sunday lunch and being there late saturday night you need to start being more management there's a huge amount of females within the industry there's a much there's a warmth and a care that comes from particularly from my restaurant manager my general manager uh my manager the manager at the coach the the two star the one star and my general manager, my general manager, the manager at the coach, the two-star, the one-star, and my general manager are all female. So there's a warmth that comes from a hospitality point of view. But whether they want to be in the kitchen is a different thing, I think.

Are you all mates, you top chefs? Yes. So you have a Christmas outing for top chefs? Sadly not. No, we don't have enough time. But we do all meet up at things like awards do's and awards ceremonies. Do you? And there's not like rivalry?

Not anymore. There used to be. Who's your best mate, chef mate? There's lots of us that are really good friends. But one of my best friends is a guy called Paul Ainsworth, who's got a Michelin star restaurant down in Cornwall called number six down in padstow oh i hear pasta is so brilliant for food right rick stein's there yeah rick stein's there and paul's there with a mission star restaurant and he's phenomenal i've known him since he was 18 we used to work for

gary rose together so we've known each other a long time but then daniel clifford claude bozzi sat baines they're all twoin star chefs that are great great friends so that rivalry isn't there anymore, they used to be but now we're recognised, we're all in the same industry together Do you ever have people over for dinner? Do I? At my house?

Not very often because I'm never there sometimes Sunday lunches we'll do stuff we have friends over on a Sunday lunch every now and then but most of the time if I'm there we cook something like this for tea omelettes

something very very simple like that something that a two and a half year old might have a try off that sort of thing you know that age old problem

so there or we'll go out we'll go out as a family and go and have lunch or breakfast somewhere so when you're not going to because you kind of basically are the king of Marlow

you've kind of made it I don't know forgive me i didn't i don't think it was a foodie place before your spots right yeah okay so if you were being generous to it where's like your favorite neighborhood spot that you go to in marlow like can you name check them all like just because i know obviously yours yours yours are hugely popular i have friends that make a weekend out of just going around all your places. But where's like one place that you'd go in Marlow? There's a beautiful country pub just up the road called the Royal Oak in Bovington Green. Nice.

And it really comes into its own this time of year because it's got a beautiful beer garden. But it's real family friendly. And you can just go out there with the kids and they've got kids menus. But it is still focused on slightly healthier food. so it's not always just like chips and fish things for kids to try and play about and run around in the garden and it's a lovely lovely lovely place to go and where do you eat in london do you have any good spots that you like in london yeah there's so many to be honest i know i mean you know you're very lucky you know being here you know there's so many great restaurants but i mean for me i'm a big fan of bar afina so the idea of non-bookable turning up sitting on a bar

and eating great spanish food for me is absolutely fantastic this is a big thing though recently drives me mad because i not it's either a cue but then i you know jackson do you know jackson boxer right so i follow him on Twitter. He's a friend of ours. He's quite. He's a friend of mine. He's a friend of Jesse's. He's quite political.

But he was saying that they've just opened a new restaurant in East London. They're opening it, yeah. And he had 10 cancellations on a Saturday night. Oh, man. And he advertised and said, come and you can have it half price. Because there was no way, because it was booking, so there was no way

he was going to fill it. And he was going to lose. And it's a new spot. And it's new, and he had, he bought all the food in, it was all cooked, because he had all these reservations.

No shows are a big problem where people go to restaurants and don't go. And it's one of those things that I find, it's hard as a restaurant industry to be able to turn it the other way to be able to go like people pay for it once they've had it so they book turn up then pay for it once they've had it but if you booked tickets for a concert or you bought tickets for a football match or but then decided

not to go your seat's empty but the game is still gone for a restaurant where the margins are very small it's particularly a new restaurant that's opening up to have 10 people not turn up if it's a 50 cover restaurant more it was 10 tables it's a 10 tables i mean it's just really awful yeah i mean and what and then one lot of people walked out and didn't pay what i have that ever happened to you i've never thought that could happen we had we had two people do a runner on the other night from the coach yeah so they I have that ever happened to you? What because of their food? I never thought that could happen They just left We had two people do a runner They did a runner?

The other night from the coach yeah So they said they were just going outside for a cigarette And they never came back I hate that I know I know How could people be like that? Would you remember them? I wouldn't

The guys there would though yeah Have you seen this man? Yeah Never allowed me We should have put it up on CCTV actually Who they are guys there would have you seen this man yeah never allowed me should have put it up on CCTV actually who they are oh you're gonna have

some more Tom Carriage is having a second I am having seconds it's amazing it's tastes delicious it's fresh it's clean like if this is the

perfect lunch dish there's some more there's some more it is amazing there's more halloumi but it may be a bit rubbery now no it's cool it's cool it's great I love great i love it honestly this is the perfect lunchtime dish

here on me oh thanks mate um okay so our podcast is called table manners and we ask everybody what table manner is their worst table manner yeah in the best themselves or in others what what kind of is your room 101 um my worst table manner um is it's probably the same as everybody else's but it's it's mobile phones and television so if i'm so if i really so if i'm at home and we've got little man to sleep and then knock up a quick tea me and bethel if we make the effort and sit at the table then we'll sit at the table we'll chat but both of us will have our mobile phones there like you'll text someone you'll do something you'll be as well so so it's not just focusing on conversation and it's the same as then being out for dinner you might i might end up taking pictures

of food or doing whatever like it always because mobile phone is it's everybody's life and but i sometimes wish that it i it wasn't such a part of it for me when we're sitting down and having something to eat you know that's that's probably my worst habit and then everybody else's worst well it probably goes back to the problem that jackson was talking about you talking that people not turning up people making bookings reservations and no shows and that that cost businesses a lot of money you know it's a that understanding of you know if you say it was 10 tables that didn't turn up i don't know you know even if they were just twos that's 20 people yeah so if it's a hundred cover restaurant you look at i mean that's 20 percent of your takings that have disappeared that could have been there.

And that's, you know, if you look at most restaurants, you look at making maybe 10% gross profit is a good figure over the years. So that then starts working as a loss now. But that's why he was saying, I might really turn to not bookings and no bookings. Right. Would you like some of your strawberry bakewell? Yeah, come on, let's have a slice of that. Yeah, are you going to do it? Okay, amazing.

In fact, do you need hand washing up? No. Tom, did you make this or did someone within your kitchen make it? Do you want 100% honest answer? 100% honest answer. I've not gone near it. I spoke to the head pastry chef at a group and said, listen, I'm going to Jessie Ware's.

What should we make for dessert? And we went for a number of things. And I went, no, yeah, let's do a bakewell because that will be lovely. I love your honesty. Yeah. So, I mean, you can't black it. You curated it. Oh, this looks delicious.

Thanks, mate. What would be your go-to pudding then? Are you a sweet or a salty? Jesse, do you want some? A smidge. Like, exactly like Tom's. Much more of a savoury person. Much more.

The weird thing, so when I gave up alcohol, so when I was drinking, and a lot, I never ever had a sweet tooth. And you don't recognise how much sugar you're taking in your body from alcohol so then when i stopped drinking all of a sudden i found myself going oh do you know what i could really do with a mars bar i was like what where on earth has that come from i've not thought that for years did you also feel like i deserve it because i'm not having a drink or no you didn't make up for like no I was in a space of like when

I stopped drinking and I stopped doing the sugar I stopped doing I got to a point like I was like properly beating myself up with not doing yeah less than we are not doing this we're not like you make the decision to go for it you gotta go for it you can't half-heartedly just go can I ask something is your pastry chef married no looking for an older woman wait he's not married no he has got a very pretty girlfriend oh shit i have to say this because my book agent told me that basically do you know you're an international sex symbol no where on earth does that come from Who Who's book Basically People have been very excited About us having you on Who

See that's the first I've heard of that So my Has my wife been texting him No This is This is a true thing My agent

Said his His girlfriend And all their friends Were very excited About this happening Right And that they really fancy you And they may even share pictures

Why are you saying it like that what no i'm just saying because say it as if you're part of the um well maybe i am part of the what's that well that's um that's that's amazing a naked calendar yeah no i don't nobody needs to see that no one needs to see that i think um that that's it that's flattering about it that's that's flattering and that's very lovely i think though like in all honesty a lot of it comes from being approachable and i think that's more like you think sex symbols need to be approachable tom no but i think that but i think that's what it is you know i think if somebody likes you i think you're more i it's because of a personality not because of necessarily oh please but no come on i just think it's like just take the compliment

i'm taking a compliment it's very kind thank you and with those to those lovely ladies thank them very much like it is like That's amazing. Thank you. This is heaven sent. It's all right, isn't it? The crunch. And it's creme fraiche, isn't it? Oh, my God. I can't speak.

That's a vanilla creme fraiche. It's too delicious. So the pastry is the key to that, right? So these are the things. How do you get it that crispy? Right, so you cook it for longer. And this is the thing that drives me nuts about recipes in books okay so pastry to get that beautiful takes around about 45 minutes of cooking if not more all right does he cook it blind first yeah yeah cook it

blind but you cook it blind on a lower temperature for longer okay so a long a long long time so quite often in cookbooks and recipes they'll say blind bake for 20 minutes well it's never going to be like that where you've got this beautiful rich dark crisp biscuit kind of base and that's the most important thing because quite often recipes are written for convenience for people to cook at home but the reality of then taking it to the level everything takes time to cook good food takes ages so it's just this is a normal pastry recipe it's just it's just the process of the cooking that is different okay so to to ask because we i interrupted with sex symbol comment um what is your pudding like you didn't mind

darling you didn't oh he didn't know i went bright red i like very simple puddings i like simple classics done very well. I mean, a very good creme brulee. We have one at the Hand of Flowers, and it's four ingredients, but just done very, very simply. It's vanilla, sugar, whole eggs, and double cream. And you just go, but it's the recipe, it's the process. It's the method that makes it amazing, and I love that.

And then the caramelizer, it's very little sugar in the recipe, and it's whole eggs, so you can taste the egg.izer, it's very little sugar in the recipe and it's whole egg. So you can taste the egg, a lot of vanilla, very little in the way of sugar. And then the caramelization on the top, it's very, very heavy. So it's bitter.

So you get this, so it's not cloying sweet. You get this bitter caramelization and the vanilla flavors that come through a lot more. Something like that. It's just perfect. And what kind of sugar do you use at the top?

Do you just use caster? And do you let it all because sometimes I find and I don't know whether I like it or not but you know when some of the sugar isn't

it's still a bit bumpy yeah it shouldn't be like that should it no and yeah good fine so it's been such a pleasure to have you on this

thank you so so much it's I feel like we you know you're the first chef that we've got on that we've had on and we took a liberty asking you to bring something but it's absolutely paid off it's been a beautiful the best beautiful uh i think i've died perfect i know i've died and gone to heaven mom look how much we've got left i know well yeah you have to invite some friends over for coffee this afternoon afternoon tea thank tea. Thank you so much for being on.

It's been so good to see you again. And good luck with the new opening September and with obviously all your other Michelin babies. Thank you so much for coming. Honestly, it's an absolute pleasure. Thanks very much for lunch. It was delicious. It's like the best lunch dish ever.

Yeah, it was absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much. I'm doing the outro on my own because my mum is sitting and eating more of Tom Kerridge's delicious Bakewell tart. Come sit down. Tom Kerridge, what a guy. I feel like that was one of the kind of best... I felt like we learned a lot from that. And I think, actually, the meal worked really well.

He was very happy about it. It had seconds. Can I just discuss the labner for a start? Oh, yeah, sorry. Now you're, like, the expert in frigging freaking cheese i'm a cheese maker okay now first of all the labner pitcher came out with a big round lump it looked like mozzarella didn't look all creamy and everything there'd be no point in putting the water in that i soaked to take out so you're wrong about that and tom's wrong then he is he basically has not got it right about the lab he's not a labner i could tell he wasn't a labner eater he had loads of it though

did you notice probably gonna put it on his menu and loosen it up with a bit of no emulsifying but then you just don't need to drip it for so long because the water is the stuff that you take out. Anyway, what? Why has your cat got so needy? Prince. Do you want to come up here? No, he wants to be involved. Do you want to come up here?

He thinks he's a human, not a cat. I thought he was so lovely, but so committed and hardworking and... Kind. And kind and just, he's got lovely eyes when he he really is a kind nice person and he was so informative I just think he was great but I think he's so busy he's doing so many things god I thought you had your finger in pies you pardon the expression he had his fingers in lots of pies well i i think yeah that was

very good for us as budding chefs yeah but he really enjoyed the food yeah he did you you kept on you see jesse you've got to be more confident when you're cooking i knew it was perfectly right and then you looked at me you said oh no we need to add sausage sausage would have been wrong well actually i thought about i i suggested the halloumi and did you see his eyes light up when i said halloumi i think he was being kind mum that was essential for the shakshuka essential for me no well and it starts to squeak after a very short time. Well, whatever. It tasted great. Well done.

And well done me too. Well done you. And thanks for trying to throw me under the bus with my lab coat. That was very mean. And there will be photographic evidence of how my mum dressed my lab coat as opposed to hers. But you put your ducker in. No, I didn't. And it's a ducker.

You did, you shook it in. What's the woman that helps with births? A doula. Oh, not a dukkah. No. Not a Middle Eastern spice. I thought it was all the same thing. Yeah, no.

I thought it was the same word. Well, yeah, I'm sorry I didn't dress it up, but I thought you put your dukkah in. Whatever. Anyway, he was gorgeous. Absolutely wonderful. And we would love to hear from people that have been to his restaurants and what they've eaten there. The Bakewell tart.

I mean, the Bakewell tart was... That's... That is... That was other level. That was, yeah. Otherworldly. Yeah. That pastry.

I thought you were offending him when you were like, has this got that thing? No, I said, is this on something? He said, no, that's the bottom. And it was crisp like a biscuit. It was really good. I know. Vanilla creme fraiche, strawberries.

Enough from us. We better wrap this up. I've been Jessie Ware on Table Manners and who have you been mum? your mother your mother thank you so much

for listening if you're enjoying this please give us five stars and review and tell us how much you enjoyed this episode thanks so much sayonara The music you've been listening to on Table Manners

is by the wonderful Peter Duffy and Peter Fraser. Own each step with Peloton. From their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes,

led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running.