Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S3 Ep 7: Yotam Ottolenghi

Episode Date: July 11, 2018

What do you do when you have the god that is Ottolenghi round? Well, you make him bring dessert and ask him enough questions until he eventually cooks the main too! I can also confirm that friendships can be made through persistence or even stalking. We speak about his children, his husband and their surrogacy process and (finally!) simplifying his dishes. L’chaim! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome back to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with my mother. Say hi mum. Hi. So tonight is a biggie. Pretty big. It's also a problematic evening because we have been influenced by the chef a lot. Yep. And you can't cook the chef's food, so this has been a bit of a difficult task. this has been a bit of a difficult task.

Well, I think that he's so clever. The fact that you need to have a delicatessen in your back garden for the ingredients, but his food is so wonderful. I think he has influenced cooking enormously and made people really enjoy Middle Eastern cooking plus enjoyment of vegetables. That's a big statement. I like everything he ever suggests, really. I trust him.

I do too. We have the revolutionary Yotam Otolenghi coming up on Table Manners. Can't wait. We've kind of, actually, this has been real team effort tonight. Dolly, I think you've done more than I have. Okay, thank you for acknowledging that. And also, I think Alex has too. Although I did run round South London for Vilo Pastry.

Okay, so we have turbot, because Tom Kerridge told us that turbot is the king. Is the king of the sea. So we took his advice, and we've got turbot, which we're going to pan fry. Yeah. I've done an asparagus pistachio with lemon zest and mint side. Yeah. And olive oil. Delicious salsa verde.

Salsa verde, which I have never made before and actually. Actually, it came out better, you know, because it could have looked like mint sauce, you know, with kind of bits. No, I whizzed it in the Nutribullet. And it was perfect. I made it creamy. Oh, it was great. It's really good. It's good.

It's really good. And then I've actually done... Samphire. Oh, yeah, we've got Samphire from M&S, which is really good. And then you've done these fabulous potatoes. So these potatoes were inspired by my mate's Instagram, Benny Blanco. I saw him having something and I kind of just thought I'd try a version of. Yeah.

So I've done butter poached new potatoes cut in half and then with smoked rapeseed oil, which I got from this food festival in Dorset in Bridport a couple a couple of weekends ago and it's i think they're called russets and they're from dorset and it's this rapeseed that actually rapeseed is a really good oil yeah to use it's quite buttery yeah and just the smoked um rapeseed just provides this kind of yeah smoky and then i put bay leaves in fabulous darling I think they're really good I think it really works and then um Alex has made a portocolopita which is an orange pie greek greek it's actually what we had at our wedding and it's so lovely exactly the same yeah but it's not exactly it smells it smelled the house smelled so delicious

when he baked it because it was just this lovely orangey cakey smell and we're gonna have that with the creme fraiche yeah and lots of rose yeah mum we have our first live event going on it's quite a big one i know darling it's latitude yep so latitude. Yep. So I'm playing on the Saturday. Yes. On the main stage. Yes. And then on Sunday, it's your time. What do you mean, my time?

Your time to meet the fans. Okay, darling. How are you feeling about it? Feeling quite anxious, because if England get to the final of the World Cup, we will only have about half an hour before we have to shift and go and watch it the guests may not get much of a meal no they might not i think everyone would want to

watch the world cup though do you know the guest no i only from listening to him on the radio his name is adam buxton he's basically one of the best podcasters out there so i know darling we're always come up against the best podcasters i wouldn. I know, darling. We always come up against the best podcasters. I wouldn't say it's up against, shall we say, Mum. It's not a competition. We've had all these major podcasters. Is that Otolenghi that's just gone? It's half past seven.

Shit. Yeah. We have Yotam Otolenghi, who was bang on time. Yeah, I was going to be a bit late, but then the Uber just kind of made magic. Thank you so much for doing this. Pleasure. You are one of our favourite people in the world.

In the world. Not just chefs, it's just people. No, we don't. No, honestly. Apart from Sandy Toksvig, she definitely was up there. Oh, I listened to Sandy Toksvig on your show. She is so gorgeous. She's so funny. Yeah, she definitely was up there. Oh, I listened to Sandy Toksvig on your show. She is so gorgeous. She's great. She's so funny.

Yeah, she really is. She's the funniest. And she's got this sense of humour that you just, it's just intoxicating. I know. Intoxicating. Intoxicating. You almost can't keep up with her.

Yeah, I know. She's just so witty. Yeah, so don't expect me to be anything like that. Also, can we just... This is why I brought cake. Yeah, so we don't have to fight. Okay, fine Also, can we just... This is why I brought cake. Yeah. So I don't need to be funny. Okay, fine, perfect.

Let me eat cake. It's a hot day. It's going to be a hot week. And so I think everyone's a little weary. We've all done a day's work. Well, we've got a rosé here. We've got a rosé. Cheers to that.

Cheers to that. Sometimes I add ice to my wine, which is really not a done thing. Oh, no, it's fine. Yeah, it's fine. I know for a chef,. Oh, no, it's fine. Yeah, it's fine. I know for a chef, it's just really, it's something you never admit to wanting to do or do. But actually, it just kind of makes the drinking experience... It makes it longer, yeah.

It's longer and it's hot and it's, yeah. I usually do that because I've got it from the shop and it's just, it's hot. I don't want to. Okay, fine. Cheers. Cheers. L'chaim. L'chaim. L'chaim cheers thank you for having me this is so much fun

do you know a lot about wine no well i know more i know more about wine than i used to because since having the restaurants i've become i've had to learn a little bit about wine and now in the last few years i've become very much into natural wines because that's what we serve in our restaurants mostly. But it's a new thing, like really kind of getting really into wines. Is that like the organic wines? Essentially, yeah. We had like a version of a Lambrusco the other day, like a fizzy red. And it was so good.

They do really good Lambruscos now. Lambrusco, what do I know? It used to be like it had a really bad reputation it used to be a joke it was the worst one you could have and now Lambrusco's having a comeback

and you're doing it naturally and you could have some really good ones much like scrunchies mum scrunchies will never come back what are scrunchies

sorry I laughed without even knowing what you're talking about when you put your hair in a scrunchie and people wear those horrible ruched up ugly things

the kind of material around them and they're very very helpful do you do that when you put your hair in a scrunchie and people wear those horrible ruched up ugly things the kind of material around them are very helpful I mean I've been doing it for a while just because they do hold your hair up much better than other hair it's very practical so this relationship with you came from me

stalking you I will never forget that event I stalked Yotam and you carried on stalking me while you were on stage which was embarrassing yeah I know okay so I will never forgive you so so to explain I was in Boston playing a gig and I followed um Yotam I used to just call him Otolenghi it was just like you know like Ronaldo there's an Irish I think I pointed out he was in Boston yes probably my mother I went to an Irish... I think I pointed out he was in Boston. Yes, probably my mother. I went on an Irish interview

and the interviewer in Dublin called me Yottolenghi. Yottolenghi. And then he called me Yotto. And then someone was, like, you know, was whispering in his ear that he got it wrong. So it was Yoda. Yoda. So Star Wars.

Which one would you have preferred out of those three? I'm still thinking. So I was in Boston, I was playing a gig, I saw that you were promoting Jerusalem which was in anthropology over the road and it annoyed me that they got rid of the beautiful book cover because in America they put a bright egg on it. They always choose a different, yeah it was like a shakshuka they always choose a different cover in America

so I was just like well he's here this is my chance and it was very serendipitous and you came and so no

you tweeted me you tweeted me and said oh I happen to be in Cambridge Massachusetts you know Stone Throne

from where you guys are would you like to come to my gig so I said to Carl do you know Jesse Ware he goes from where you guys are. Would you like to come to my gig? So I said to Carl, do you know Jesse Ware? He goes, no, I don't know where Jesse Ware is. So, sorry, this is all coming out now. You know, we're not that much into the music scene.

So, you know, we didn't know. So Carl texts his friend Nick, who's a musician, aspiring musician, and he said to Nick, Jesse Ware, yes, you have to go. Thank you so much Nick. So we come there and we were quite early because you know I don't know what happened so we arrived there, we had dinner in the restaurant, then we walk into the gig. It was just amazing, it was so nice until Jesse started to stalk me from the stage. So she goes like my favorite chef is in the crowd. And I look at each other, and then people start looking at us.

Oh, God, did you get recognized? And they go, like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're, like, and then I go, like, oh, my God, this is not. And then the funniest thing was that she messed up big time because she said, oh, you know, my mom really wanted you to go out with my brother. And I didn't know you were married. This was awkward.

And Carl and I were actually in Boston expecting our first child. So it was kind of because our surrogate was in Boston. So anyway, it was hilarious. And then we got talking to these two guys and they said, oh, I just bought your book for my mum for her birthday. It was all fine. It was just funny. The rest is history. The rest is history.

That's why we're here now. And we've tried to look laid back and look like there's no stress in the kitchen. Actually, today has been pretty chilled considering it's you. We've really, we've been prepping this. Considering it's me. We've been prepping this for a lifetime. We never know what to give you. That's the problem.

It is a problem. Because we But we never know what to give you. That's the problem. It is a problem. Because we always love all your recipes. So we cook, we generally cook like you for ourselves. People have cooked my food for me a few times. How does that work out? So you go to dinner and then someone says, I'm really sorry, but I cooked one of your dishes. And then I think, and then, you know, in actual fact, it's fine. It's actually good because it gives me reassurance that people cook and I try.

And often they get it even better than I did. No way. Yeah, I went to these guys and they made this garlic tart that I have in plenty. And it was bloody delicious. Did they add anything? I don't think they added anything. I think they just, well, I don't know, but it was really good. Maybe it was just nice because you didn't cook it and

you kind of had the relaxation of not having to what do you worry about when you cook for people you know what it is when you cook you don't want to eat do you know do you have that feeling you taste all the time and you get to the meal and you go like yeah you give me a glass of something but I don't want but when you kind of manage to just not eat for a few hours, which hardly ever happens to me because I'm always eating, then you arrive and you're really hungry and you start drinking. It was so good, yeah. If you didn't cook Middle Eastern food, what's the other cuisine that you really like? Asian, some kind of Asian cuisine.

So I traveled with a friend of mine, Helen. Helen Goh, she's the co-author of my previous book. And she was brought up in malaysia then moved to australia and i love malaysian food yeah like i traveled in asia and malaysian food is kind of it's so interesting because it's like three cultures and i think when you get like this mixture of culinary cultures yeah it's a bit like jerusalem you know you get those kind of hybrids which are so good or even just things that are kind of evolving yeah so you've got Malay which are like which is like you know that more the more local kind of everybody's local and you've got Chinese and

you've got Indians and those are all great nations for food and then you come to Malaysia and you've got all those things that evolve there like their their versions off. Did they start chicken satay? Well, chicken, it's kind of Indonesian-Malaysian. So Indonesia has, so the Malay are kind of, I don't want to offend anyone, I always get it wrong, but it's kind of that part of the world. But then you've got like food that actually, but my favorite is nasi lemak. Have you had nasi lemak? Nasi's rice.

Nasi's rice, coconut coconut rice is it the blue coconut rice no it's normally served white and it's got some dried anchovies in it which are give a really good flavor great and a little bit of kind of poached chicken it's very simple but it's kind of tastes great perfection yeah and i don't know this is the one of the things that i realized over the years that sometimes two people can make the same thing and it could be so good and so bad do you know what i mean yeah so there's like the way of the way people cook is just incredible so malaysia is definitely the place are your boys adventurous yeah what they like to eat um they do tell me they do tell me they eat aubergines and pomegranates no

they may be pomegranates but definitely the aubergine no look i don't try i would be shoving that za'atar down their bloody gob that's what i'd be like you're gonna love this what about your girl i tried so hard i was like doing gourmet meals for her at the beginning, like roasted butternut squash risotto with deep fried sage. Like it was so ludicrous. And bless her, she loved dahl and all that. And she's gone right for beige food all of a sudden. She loves a sausage. And a sausage.

You need to. I think what I learned is that, first of all, you always lose when you fight with kids over food. Because, you know, they've got more willpower than we, than the adults do. It's true. And the other thing is that you need to accept that they've got a different palate. So my kids would one day be great. They'd eat broccoli and beans and this and that.

And the next day, it's just pasta. And you need to accept it and go with it. And that's my thing. I'm kind of stoic about it. Carl is a blessing. He is the one who really struggles because he makes their food every day. And they come home and you never know. It's like a Russian roulette.

You never know what they're going to eat or not. I'm not hungry. Off they go. The whole meal goes. It's funny that they'll always have a mini milk, though, won't they? They'll always have an ice cream or a mini milk. But you've written about having children in the guardian quite a lot i did yeah after max was born i've written so i i kind of i never wanted to talk too much about my private costs and um and then we had our we and carl and i were we were trying to figure out how we're

going to have a baby so you know we were they were all sort of uh we tried all sorts of things we had relationships with women in order to kind of co-parent which was having a child together with a woman or a couple of women that would we would kind of have two families come together and we tried all these um all these kind of structures and it didn't work for us how long was the process the process those structures uh it took about two or three years where we kind of trying to build up relationships and then realizing that everybody what everybody wanted more than half a child. Do you know what I mean?

They wanted their own child. It was almost like negotiating a divorce settlement before you've even been married and before there is another child. So we were talking about visiting rights about a child that wasn't even born. It was kind of like who gets the child when. So this whole thing, I think we were a bit insecure about having a child as two gay men you know we were thinking oh we need a woman involved in this thing which was i think it's a little bit like kind of hang up that you know a child needs a

woman in their life and otherwise we're inadequate i look at it like this now i would say heteronormative yeah exactly heteronormative it's like that kind of idea that's the only way it can be right if yeah and and and now from you know five years back and you know the kids have women in their lives they have a godmother they go to very often and they're perfectly happy and carl and i are super adequate parents you know we do what we need to do and you know they they're perfectly happy. And Carl and I are super adequate parents. You know, we do what we need to do and you know, they, they're fine. And I'm sure sometimes they ask us, Hey, why don't we have a mother? And then we go, but how lucky are you?

You've got two dads. And you know, sometimes a friend comes over and they go, and then friend comes, goes back home and says, had a, has a fight with his mom. He says, I want two dads. I hate you. I'm so glad you did write in the Guardian because I think you're quite inspirational for same-sex couples that wanted to have a baby and didn't have the courage to think about it or try it and never thought it was possible this is this is why I did it so

my initial my initial reaction that is that I'm not talking about my private life. It's not relevant. You know, I'm a chef. But then I thought, and Carl was actually pushing me to do that. He said, well, you kind of have a responsibility because, you know, people know you, know about you. And keeping it private is almost selfish. You know, we've gone through the process. We've seen it. And some people would like to know that it's possible, what it has

to do, what is involved. And I did it and I was so happy I did it. I just told it as it happened, the whole process, all the stages, how I went to America, how we found our surrogate, how we had a baby, how I met Jessie Ware. and people were really warm about it and they said you know people still come to me said you know this is was a seminal article because i read i read it and i decided yeah i'm gonna have and also you're not someone who seeks out publicity anyway so you're not someone who's writing something about their private life every week. You're not doing a photo shoot in the low, are you? No, or modelling for Marks and Spencers with your two sons. I mean, that could happen when he has his food. Yeah, it could happen.

I don't think it will happen, but I think the reason why we did it is because we thought it would be good and we kind of had the responsibility. It was somewhat, a little bit, and I write it in the piece, it was a bit like coming out it was like a second coming out because i think as gay men we always think and gay women i'm sure it's the same but i'm not a woman but there is the kind of this thing about privacy which is somehow sacred and i think fuck privacy i mean what what what is that privacy all about again it's a kind of a chip on the shoulder. Some things are private.

No, it's not private. We have a boy. Now we have two boys. We can talk about it. Everybody talks about their children. So I learned to kind of be more out through my children. It's not private. I can talk about it.

I've got kids and I'm a gay man. And I think that was quite liberating for me to kind of just completely tell it as it is do you feel like a real pressure to carry I mean you've got a new book coming out haven't you yeah you do you do a piece every week thank you for simple yeah I really appreciate that one I think a lot of Otter Lake fans are going to appreciate that one. I know, my sister said to me, finally I can cook your recipes. I know. Because I kind of realised that some people cook Ottolenghi only on the weekend because there's just a lot of shopping and prepping involved.

The ingredient. But once you've got it, it's okay. It's okay, yeah, but it could be a bit intimidating. And so the idea of just taking those recipes and kind of just kind of narrowing it down what is really essential here and how could you make it simple for some people where was kind of it made sense for me to to do this so yeah that's that's the book when's it out in september do you think you've contributed towards israel becoming a real culinary hotspot. Because people are talking about Tel Aviv as the place to go to eat now.

And rightly so. Jesse's desperate for us to go and just eat. Yeah, rightly so. The food scene there is just marvellous. I can't take any of the credit for that. I think what has happened in Tel Aviv is that in a period of like 15 years, it kind of transformed itself from like this

culinary desert I'm saying that you know there was always good kind of like hummus joints and you know places you would go and eat like but like cutting edge like going serious restaurants doing really good food where in a way that is super interesting is really kind of only 10 15 20 years and and before that like when I was growing up, this just didn't exist. So, and also the nice thing about it is that the way Tel Aviv does it is that, or other places in Israel as well,

but they've taken and kind of put together the foods of the various Jewish diaspora, you know, like North African Jews and Middle Eastern Jews and a bit of the Eastern European Jews. And also mixed it up with the Palestinian cooking. So you get like, it's kind of a mishmash of cultures that is really quite nice. Because in a sense, up until 20 years ago, it was all very separate. And, you know, each diaspora would cook their own food. And I remember growing up in jerusalem and i remember we used to have this kind of they were called like um this thing where each

kid brought their own food from their own uh diaspora like you know if you were from show and tell like it was like a day in school where everyone had brought their own food from their own from their own culture yeah their mom and dad cooked from their own culture. And there was a lot of Ashkenazi Jews, and they always brought all these great gefilte fish things that nobody wanted to have. You know, here, gefilte fish is fried. Yeah, and there it's boiled.

So it looks better, but in Eastern Europe, it's kind of boiled. And even if it tastes good, I have to say don't i don't dislike it it just looks bad and normally eastern european food eastern european food looks quite great and my dad is italian we're italian jewish family so i brought pizza you can remember you can imagine how popular i was you know i brought like my dad made like dough and fresh and kind of put all the toppings together so were your parents great cooks? Yeah, they're both really good cooks, both my parents. My mom is from a German family and my dad was from an Italian family.

And we had good food. They're quite adventurous, but also they have kind of a solid kind of culinary tradition. And I think I kind of had the best of all worlds because I had my parents cooking kind of had the both of all the best of all worlds because I had my parents cooking kind of European food and then obviously there was all that stuff going on in markets and kind of Palestinian food which is just so great falafel and hummus and all the baba ghanoush all the kind of dips and spreads of Palestinian cooking that is just so good so I kind of experienced everything were you always into your food? Or were you... Into eating, not so much into cooking.

So yeah, I was really like, as a child, I used to go like, my parents would take me to a restaurant for my birthday. That is just obnoxious, right? Like that was my present, to go to a really good restaurant. Oh, I get that. No, yeah, you get that.

Yeah. Yeah, I think other kids want like a really great present or something, but... It worked out for you. So it's okay. Yeah, I think other kids want like a really great present or something. But it worked out for you. So it's okay. Yeah, completely. And there was this restaurant in the old city in Jerusalem. And forgive me all the Jewish listeners.

They served prawns and I love prawns. There was the only place in Jerusalem you can get prawns. So they had these prawns that were kind of quickly cooked in butter and garlic and a bit of lemon juice, which is still kind of the best way to cook prawns and i remember that was where we were it was called dolphin it was a it was a it was in the area part of the city where they could eat prawns and i my parents used to take me there for like my birthday is it still there no it's like it unfortunately it's not there it's a it's a kind of a sad story because it was a it was co-owned by a palestinian and a jew and it was quite difficult over time there's a lot of there was a lot of pressure from all

sorts of reasons at some point it was even someone even tried to set it on fire and so they moved to tel aviv and over the years i'm sure for various reasons it doesn't exist anymore. We're going to actually put the fish on in a minute because otherwise it's just not fair on you because we have got food to eat. He might give us some advice about cooking. Yeah, actually, that would be very helpful. Yeah, well, what am I here for? We bought turbot.

Yeah, great fish. Because Tom Kerridge said it's the king of the sea. Yeah. Because I love halibut. And so he said, no, turbotot and turbot is so popular at the moment yeah there's a restaurant called brat oh yes it's supposed to be amazing in shoreditch have you eaten that yes i have and they're famous for their turbot how do they cook it uh so they call it cook it on the grill and they've got this amazing contraption where they put the whole fish

in and they cook it really right now we've got small pieces yeah you've got pieces we're just gonna fry it well that fish feeds like three four people so you wouldn't yeah should we take you through the menu yes please okay turbot cooked however you some maybe a little bit of. And then I... I think this is a really good choice for me because I love pan-fried fish, any fish, and turbot is a great fish. So thank you, Tom Carriage. And how long do you think you should fry it for? It depends on how thick your pieces are.

This is so helpful. We've got a brilliant chef. Thank God you're here. You know, sometimes if they're really thick, so you can start pan-frying them, stick them in the oven to finish them off. So that's up to you. And then we're going to have new potatoes, are they?

I don't know what they are. I basically saw my friend, Benny Blanco, who actually you met when we had the barbecue. He was my producer friend. Yes. You commented on his croutons and he's never, he's just basically tells me about how he made the best dish of that day. Because obviously it wasn't a competition, Benny, and you're a dick. It was just, yeah.

But like you did comment on his brilliant croutons. Yeah, I remember Benny very well. Yeah, you can't forget it. No. So Benny had his mate round, and I just saw on Instagram that he was having smoked, butter poached potatoes, smoked.

And then they had caviar on top. So I thought, oh, sod it. I've got this amazing smoked rapeseed oil that i got from this food festival in dorset and i've done it with bay leaves which makes it i don't know nice yeah very good and then i had a delicious breakfast have you heard of esters yes of course so good it's in it's in east london yeah and it's right by my daughter's nursery. And so I had the breakfast there. Very popular for breakfast. Yeah, really good. And they did like sourdough with poached eggs and they did asparagus with

kind of pistachios, olive oil, lemon, and they had like Lancashire cheese in it. I think it was some kind of fudge cheese. But I haven't done cheese with this because I thought we didn't need it. But I've just done asparagus with some mint and pistachios and lemon zest so I see what you're doing you're kind of just de-autolengifying the whole meal it's completely like simple in a kind of like it's quite British really isn't it I don't really know I tried you know I could use some of your lemon salt that I do love maybe we'll do that just I think I think it's it was a great strategy okay yeah yeah i think we also made we made salsa verde oh yeah we've done oh yeah well that is a little bit but it's still like completely it's fine you know we had to go in a different direction yeah because we

weren't gonna do you think do you want me to start cooking yeah i do because everything's pretty much right i could just do these yeah And I can just drink my rosé. Your turn's basically cooking our dinner for us. The potatoes are done. Oh, the samphire. But the samphire doesn't need very long, does it? No, it doesn't need very long. Basically, your turn's in charge of the turbot. See, it almost cooks through.

And then you're going to get it like this. Oh, we're missing one fish. No, there's two more here. Oh, OK. So we'll have to do it two at a time. Good thing he likes us, I think. Basically, we're... Yeah, you thought he was coming here to get a home-cooked meal?

Fucking hell, you are basically Gordon Ramsay. You're cooking, me doing, you're doing nothing. Oh, wow, that's worked out really well. All right, come on, we've got some lemon, darling. Yeah, I do. Yeah, we need a lemon. And where's the salsa verde, sweet? Yeah, hurry up.

If I just sit this sofa in the hot water... Yeah, hurry up... This is brilliant, lessons from the altar. . . What has she got in there? I found these. She's such a cow to me. That is a bit of a pain. Right, OK. Hello. And let me just look in the kitchen.

Yeah, I know, too much. Three Jews in the kitchen, too much. Right. See, those aren't as good, are they? This is the joke. I know, there's just a bit of it. I mean, it's like a tutorial. She's got the bones in the kind of... Mum's complaining complaining as per her salt Jess she's such a fucking bitch do you know where the salt is thank you

oh hold on what the lemon salt's in here i'm really sorry that you basically had to cook the dinner yes i'm sorry this is a first on the podcast i'm really sorry that you basically had to cook the dinner This is a first on the podcast No it is a first on the podcast I'm really glad it's you Yeah well Sadiq Khan wouldn't do that No Sadiq wouldn't have done that On Ramadan

Bless him it was Ramadan Yeah there's a lot to ask from the mayor To cook his own dinner on Ramadan Before he can actually eat it We are sitting down and on Ramadan before you can actually eat. We are sitting down and basically we got Yotam to cook our dinner, which has worked out brilliantly for us.

That's a first for the podcast. I will tell you that this never happens in our own house because he does all the cooking, so it's a novelty. So what's in this sauce? Oh, that's the salsa verde? That's the salsa verde. I want to try it.

Tastes nice. Tastes really nice. Yeah, it's nice. So it's got capers, mustard, parsley. Yeah, mustard, basil, mint. Yum. Got some Jewish, like, doctor, what's her name? Mrs. Elwood's sweet and sour cucumbers.

Let's get some more lemon. I like that one. And there's potatoes there. This fish is delicious. The fish is so meaty and beautiful. The fish is cooked to perfection. Thank you so much. It is good.

It really is good. Turbot is a great fish. So you've talked about Brat, but are there any other restaurants that you absolutely love in London? Because I think everyone always loves a recommendation. Yeah. You know, there's been some delicious,

great restaurants that have opened recently. And one of my favorite is called Sabor. Sabor, where is it? Sabor, from Spanish, it was Spanish for flavor. It's off Regent Street, Haddon Street. Is it near Nopi then? It's near Nopi. Okay, is that how you discovered it?

No, I discovered it because people were talking about it and the head chef was cooking at Barafina. Oh, okay. Do you know Barafina? Yeah, I've never been, but Tom said that it was one of his favourites. But yeah, it's great. You're on stools, aren't you?

Yeah, because Barafina, you would sit around a bar, but they had a couple of branches. Because Barfina, you would sit around a bar, but they had a couple of branches. But Sabor is just delicious, wonderful Spanish food of all. Do you like croquetas? Yeah, I mean, who doesn't? Yeah, who doesn't? It's so fattening.

Yeah, fattening. Forget fattening. It's just so delicious. So you drink vermouth from the tap with some ice and you eat croquetas. This sounds really fun. It's really fun and then they have also really elaborate dishes but she's just the most incredible chef and she's also really nice which is kind of annoying. Who is this lady? I can't remember how to pronounce her name now.

But she's a Spanish lady. But she is a Spanish chef and she's fantastic. You have. This was really nice. how to pronounce her name now, but she is a Spanish chef and she is fantastic. You have. But I have to say, the food was delicious and it's so nice not to eat my food, Middle Eastern food or anything.

The fish was worth it. All British food. Mum, I think we did alright. High five. We did alright. I think he did alright. You basically cooked the main thing. No.

Well done. It was really good. Well done. Teamwork makes the dream work. So, okay. So we ask everybody, you obviously, you've listened to the podcast.

What is your worst table manner? So, I'm not too fussed about table manners. What I don't like, and it's not a manner, it's just the way people eat, is when people pile lots of things on the plate oh my god guilty yeah you guys just did it I went with

my asparagus right no the thing is I've got this kind of your time Israelis do it I know I know well they pile it up and then they're on the phones and they're eating you know what is no it's not about piling up the food I don't mind it's that it's big and part it's just that you can't tell the flavor so like you know like a Christmas dinner meal the flavours. So like, you know, like a Christmas dinner meal is my idea of hell. Oh no, it's my favourite meal. So you've got like potatoes

and mash and gravy and cranberry sauce and it's just like, how can you taste anything? But that's the whole point. It's just a big mishmash of deliciousness. For someone that really loves food and wants to taste things, it's just like you might as well just have swallowed it and brought it back up. It's true.

That's kind of what happens, actually. You don't like Christmas dinner? No, I love Christmas dinner, but I just do it in stages, which I guess sounds really poncy, but I like my... It's because you're an Italian. That's my dad. My dad eats like that. The Italian, they eat their protein separately from their carbs.

That's how my dad eats. He never puts... He says, let me finish my asparagus before I load my plate with someone else, which is really not Middle Eastern. And so this is... It's not a table manner. It's just a way of enjoying food. I'm worried somebody's going to get that asparagus before I get to it.

Jesse, yeah. That is a problem. That's my mentality. That's your problem, darling. That is my problem. Did your brother and sister steal your asparagus? No. No, to be fair.

They never stole anything. They're both skinny ones. Yeah. Yeah, I stole it from them. Yeah. Lots of it. So you were expecting something to happen that never happened. I just, I don't know.

Jessie, we always have plenty of food. I know, but it's just, I like to make sure I've got everything. I know, darling. It's terrible. We also asked this question, and I think everyone's going to be really interested to know what would be on your desert island meal. Last supper.

It's a very contentious issue, whether we call it the last supper, death row, desert island. It's confused a lot of people. What is your ultimate dish? Ultimate dish. Three starter, main, pudding. so what is your ultimate ultimate dish three starter main pudding it's not going to make sense in one particular supper so one thing that my grandmother my italian grandma used to make was gnocchi alla romana which is simolina gnocchi so you know what it is it's like essentially it's

cooked simolina with cheese that is set and then you cut it into kind of squares or circles. I've never had that. And you sprinkle it with cheese and you put it under the grill. So essentially it's set semolina. So you cook it like a wet semolina, wet gnocchi. Yeah. And then you... You cook it like polenta, right?

Like polenta, yeah. So you cook it with milk and nutmeg and that until... Like a wet polenta. Yeah, exactly. But semolina is a bit more kind of subtle than polenta and you set and it also sets a bit softer than polenta you set it you cool it and then you can cut you know circles or squares or whatever you want and then you kind of overlap them in a baking tray and you spring and you sprinkle it with more butter and cheese and you put it under the grill

so it goes like crisp on top and like feathery and ethereal on the bottom and it's just the most delicious thing. That was your grandma's dish? That was my grandma's dish because my grandma was from Rome and she was from the Jewish ghetto in Rome and this is very typical for Roman cooking. So that's a starter. But it's not going to make sense as a meal, but I'll just give you a bunch of things.

So Sadiq can't stall my thing because he likes lentils and rice and I like lentils and rice, but they're very different. So the majadra, the lentils and rice that is cooked in Palestinian cooking has got those kind of spices that are quite different from Indian. the thing is it's all about

the fried onion if you ever made majadra you cook your lentils you cook your rice. I think you made it for us. I may have made it for you because it's my favorite thing I cook it for my children and they love it it's like fried onions you can't go wrong so it's lentils and brown or green lentils and and long grain rice then spices like cumin you can add a bit of turmeric you can have it all spices cinnamon and lots of fried onion mix it all together and you serve it with a dollop of yogurt it's just the best thing yeah seriously she will love that my My boys love lentils. And what kids like lentils? And it's just thanks...

I mean, actually, kids like dahl, don't they? Yeah, I mean, she used to, but she wouldn't touch it with a barge bar now. I do lentil bolognese, so she likes that. But how do you get your onions crispy? So there's all sorts of crispy, right? So you get, like, sometimes sometimes if you want crispy crispy you put them in flour yeah so you put them in you toss them in a bit you take like a tablespoon of flour

and you take your sliced onion and you just toss it together with some salt and then you put it in quite a bit of oil so like almost deep fried but like you know two centimeters of oil and they crisp up quite easily but you don't put too much so otherwise they start to stew you want them to crisp and then you lift it up but some people don't mind that it's a bit more mushy more like caramelized onion and then you put just a bit of oil a flour always helps to kind of and then you just cook it for a bit longer so it's it's up to you with the way you like your onions but onions that are cooked for a while they go sweet and delicious and kids love that so you'd have that as your main well any sides would you have any greenery well that really goes well with a good chopped salad right like tomatoes cucumbers coriander lemon juice and israelis do the best chopped salad israelis

why is it well i think it's the best chopped salad i think think, Israeli salad. But you know that it's like... It's Arabic. The Arabs would say that. Oh, sorry. Okay, it's Middle Eastern salad. That's it. Yes, yeah. It's just about the qualities of the tomatoes and the cucumbers and the chopped.

And it's like you need to make sure that the tomatoes are not too watery and the cucumber is not too watery. So actually the cucumbers we were talking about, the crisp cucumbers cucumbers like they call them lebanese or or greek or whatever they're really nice and crispy the moment there's water in your cucumber it kind of just lowers the level of your salad immediately they've got a thicker skin those cucumbers haven't they yeah they have it depends which ones but you can just kind of crisscross it like zebra so you've got a bit of skin because skin is nice but some of them don't have so you just go with your peeler you need to add like a crisscross and then you chop them up

what's your pud you've got plenty to choose it's so difficult to choose a pudding but i go back to the italian heritage and i love a sabayon you know like a sabayone which is sabayone so essentially it's it's really only three ingredients it's kind of it's a dessert wine like a marsala it's egg yolks and it's sugar and you cook it over a bain-marie so over boiling water and you swisk and whisk and whisk and whisk and whisk and it puffs up and goes really creamy when you can't believe it doesn't have any dairy product like you haven't kind of folded in some cream or something so that's the kind of the basic one and then you can just spoon it over poached fruit or fresh fruit and it's kind of warm and delicious

but you can also let it cool down and then fold some cream into it and then it's kind of a little bit more like a desserty custardy thing if you weren't the chef what would you have been uh i love um current affairs and politics. I read the news every day. In the previous incarnation, I used to work in the news desk in an Israeli newspaper called Haaretz. Oh, really? Yeah, I used to do that.

So I used to get all the news coming in at, you know, between four and seven and just put it all together. And by 11, we had a deadline. It's a bit like a kitchen. You've got like this kind of mad rush to get everything in. You're still addicted to news. And I love news and I love current affairs. And I read it on my phone.

I get the paper on the weekend. I love both the news and the commentary. So I might have stayed a journalist in another life. And when I moved from academia and journalism to cooking, I told my parents, oh, I'm going to take a year off and I'm going to check this out. And in my mind, I thought, this is not going to work. I'm going to go back to the newspaper. I'm going to go back to university or just do something,

which is much more similar to what I did before. I never thought that this is going to work out you mentioned that when when you decided to leave academia your your parents were disappointed that you were going to be a chef are they still disappointed you know when I when I turned 40 and we had a big birthday party for me and lots of people came and my family and my parents came along and then then one of my friends said, oh, let's go around the table. And there were about 30 people around the table and everybody will wish Yotam something for the future.

And my dad was the last to go. And my dad said, the only thing I'd wish for him is that he doesn't listen to me ever again. That's so sweet. Which was really sweet because it was kind of just admitting you know that it was lovely

he must be very proud yeah they're both very proud should we have some pudding oh yeah let's see if you can your tam has kindly brought mother and I

both a chocolate cake is it a chocolate cake with a ganache yeah it's a it's a very simple chocolate cake with a ganache don't believe it's simple.

Don't believe that's what it is. It is simple. You don't even need a food processor for it. You just take your butter and a bit of melted chocolate and there's a bit of coffee there and eggs and flour and you just whisk it all together and pour it in. So we're going to have both puddings, because we've made one too,

but we can't not try an ottenengi made cake when it's on the table, and I'm sure everyone wants to know how delicious it is. But I'm dying to see this dessert you were telling me about. Well, Alex is so good at them, considering this was his first attempt at making it. It's almost got like a brulee topping. Well Alex said when he put

it in the oven it looked like a big omelette. Oh we're not going to have them together obviously because I was about to plop them over. You learned something. What do you think? Does it taste like it's fine? It tastes very orangey, it's nice. It's nice. It feels it's more dense than what we've had in Greece. It could be a bit fluffier. It's called Portocolopita. I think if you had less of the dough and more of the rest, it would be a bit lighter. That's all. It's such a really weird thing to make. And this isn't how I thought it was made. I thought it was a cake with orange syrup. It's definitely tasty it just kind of needs a bit of refining. The flavours are really good. Mum, that was the biggest amount of flan. I feel like that was an orange flan.

That's really gone straight to the bottom of my stomach I think. And to my arse. Like an anchor. That was really huge. I know, I'm sorry. It needs work, but that's okay. We'll just get to our tasting kitchen. Alex will be very upset because he said it was a shit recipe. Don't blame it on Alex. No, it's not Alex. He's not here to defend himself. No, no, no.

He was the one who said, I don't think you should. I'm really worried about serving this. Oh, I mean, it tasted... It tasted, it was dense. The flavour and the texture. So the flavour was great. The texture was a bit hard. Yeah, exactly.

Okay, I'm going to cut some of this cake. But I mean, it's going to be a frigging sliver. That is the lightest of feather. Well, the cake is, the ganache is really nice because it's kind of just a... Ganache is great, isn't it? It's a dark chocolate ganache. It's a dark... The ganache only has three ingredients

which is butter, cream and chocolate you can't go wrong really that is delicious I have died this is actually, I'm not just saying it it's a really really easy recipe to make have you got this in your simple book

it's in the book Sweet I've got Sweet it's called a take-home chocolate cake. And it's something that you do in one bowl without a mixer. So you take everything and just put it all together and pour it into... It really is very simple. And it makes a great birthday cake because it's kind of kids like that. You just take the coffee out.

I feel like that seems like quite a kind of sophisticated birthday cake. So if you take the coffee out, because there's a bit of coffee in there, and leave just that spot, I think kids would like that. Thank you so much for being on Table Manners and for cooking our dinner. Thank you.

First on Table Manners. Yeah, Tom Kerish didn't do that. Yeah, well, there, Tom. Thank you. first Tom Kerish didn't do that yeah well there Tom thank you mum yes darling I have to say yep Mum? Yes, darling? I have to say, I think that meal was really good. It was delicious. It was just my type of meal.

We de-ottolengied, he said. I know. Do you think he was offended? No, I don't think so at all. Because I think all the things that we had were delicious. So we bought really good quality fish. Yeah. Thank you, Moxon's. We did buy it. So thank you so much, Moxon's.

It was fantastic fish. The samphire was great because it was salty and it added to it. That was M&S's finest. Was it M&S? They do samphire now. And then the asparagus was gorgeous gorgeous I don't think it lacked anything and the potatoes with the bay he'd never heard of that one before if I see that in the guardian in a couple of weeks well I'd like a credit yourself um I don't think he'll put anything in without asking you know maybe you are are actually a cook Maybe I'm Heston. Do you think? Like a cross between Heston and your term.

So it's just like... See, I'm not. I know what I can do. I'm just, you know, I take risks. I take risks. What can I say? I've never eaten so much pudding. You know, I'm not a pudding person.

Mum, you gave me the thickest slab of that cake and I thought that I had to finish it to show that, you you know it was an okay pudding and nobody else finished the pudding I couldn't eat any more it was so much but I don't know how you could make it any different when you use shredded up phyllo pastry it needed like to have more air in it I don't know I don't well, the fact that you had both paddles for the whisk didn't help. So Alex and I had to beat it by hand for two minutes. Right, that's my fault.

Yeah. Such an interesting man. Such a joy. Such a, oh man, it was such a treat to have him here. It was just lovely talking about food and family, really. Yeah, exactly what the podcast is meant for. Yeah, it was lovely. And it was a bit of a touch when he did cook the turbot. just lovely talking about food and family really yeah exactly what the podcast is meant for yeah it's lovely and it was a bit of a touch when he did cook the turbot i think he knew what he was

doing my salsa verde was sensational it was fabulous and my smoked potatoes were a treat fabulous i just feel like i won i won this one competing with me yeah just today give it to me darling you can have it thank you so much uh alex i've got a few pointers from no but it's no it was not his fault it was not a good good recipe i don't think but we will work on that for the i think translating it from the greek to the english didn't hurt oh yeah that was no we must go in the kitchen with them when we get scott cross in the summer it's i feel weighed down with no honestly porto calopita man porto probably is an anchor in greek

thank you so much yotam ottengi being a guest. Somebody that we adore and admire and are so inspired by for him to come on our podcast and talk about food and hear it from the horse's mouth and to be able to give that to all our listeners was just... I think both of us were really soft in our approach today. I felt like we were more tender. Because I love him. No, I know.

We adore him. He's kind of like a were more tender. Because I love him. No, I know. We adore him. He's kind of like a god to us. So it was just, it was so... He doesn't behave in a pompous way, though. He's so sweet. No, he's so sweet. Otolenghi, what a man. What a chef. What a night.

You've been listening to Table Manners, the podcast, and music is by Peter Duffy and Pete Fraser. If you're enjoying the podcast, please give us five stars. We love to read your comments, not really the mean ones, but please do give us five stars if you've enjoyed it. Should I just read out another comment? Oh, no. Okay.

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