Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S6 Ep 10: Neneh Cherry

Episode Date: June 26, 2019

This week we have music, fashion and feminist icon, Neneh Cherry. What an honour to have Neneh over for lunch. We talk about the 80s, music, being a woman, love and partying on aeroplanes, Swedish living, vegetarian eating, carnival going...everything and more! This episode is full of fantastic stories and we loved every mouthful and moment of Ms Cherry intoxicating our kitchen with warmth, sisterhood and wisdom. Enjoy x Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Table Manners, I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with my begrudging mum. Not begrudging. No? No. I won't go through the list of things I did over the weekend for you. No, I appreciated the three rounds of laundry, I did appreciate that. And the four meals. I appreciated the four meals.

And sleeping with your daughter. You love sleeping with my daughter I do anyway is that cherry blossom or cherry blossom what are we having for lunch today mum

we're having sea bream with a kind of anchovy and parsley crust you've done salt and vinegar potatoes. Yes, I had these. These are inspired by, we have an amazing restaurant. Albeit the croissants are very expensive,

but it's a really brilliant bakery called Jolene and it's on Newington Green. They've got a restaurant. They've got loads. They've got Premier, Western's Laundry, and I love them all. And Jolene is really delicious and that's my husband i went there when i was overdue and we had a lunch there and one of the things

because i was trying to bloody gluten free one of the things that i had was um potatoes ham on and egg so i was like fine we'll have that and these potatoes that came out they were so delicious and i asked the lady i said if what have you done to these because they were so delicious and I asked the lady I said if what have you done to these because they taste so delicious and I said have they got vinegar on them she went oh yeah they're salt and vinegar um potatoes so I was like like they were like roasted potatoes so I just kind of thought I'd do the same and so thanks Jolene for the idea it's a bit like fish and chips so yeah I mean it's a no-brainer isn't it so yeah but I'd run out of a bit of um I was using red wine vinegar because I tried them out the other day.

I'm sure malt vinegar is probably the best. But I didn't have any and I was worried that we weren't going to get any. So I put a bit of apple cider on and then I'm going to put the red wine on for about 10 minutes before they come out. So you burn it off a bit so it's not so like... Okay. Yeah. But yeah, they kind of go sweet and delicious.

And we've got asparagus too. Yeah. And then... And then I have made a chocolate and courgette cake. Never done this before. It said it serves 24, but I didn't know how to modify. I didn't know how to modify the recipe. Well, that's good.

And what are we having it with? Some Chantilly cream. Oh, you're doing Chantillyilly cream you only have to put um any icing sugar in have we got a whisk though yeah but you really want to bother doing that but she won't have it anyway she won't have it anyway we have a dairy free guest today mum's rolling her eyes so the cake's made with oil oh but i love that when we do stuff with olive oil so is it olive oil no oh sunflower okay well we have dairy-free nana cherry nana hello hello is that how we say your name nana yes why do all our brits say nana or nina oh no that's in america no that's in america they say nina cherry hi how are you doing

no or nana or a lot of people call me nana but i don't you know what i don't actually really mind i think people look at the spelling of my name and they just like can't really figure it out. Where's your name from? It's from Sierra Leone. Oh, Sierra Leone. So my father was from Sierra Leone and Nene was his mother's name. And it's a nickname, I believe, from the name Aisatu.

So it's kind of a nickname. It means good mother oh very good we all want to be in many of them let me choke on my kombucha yeah we'll drink to that we'll drink to you mama

well done you're very sweet he's sleeping at the moment he's sweet at the moment. But who knows? Like, he doesn't like one of my boobs today, which is just like a new thing. So I was like, please just be a good boy. What's wrong with him? There's not much to kind of feast from.

No, it's not exciting. But how old is he? He's four and a half weeks. I've struggled so hard with the breast. Yeah, the breastfeeding has been hard, man. Like, I don't know. I think it's even harder. I was saying to you upstairs also i felt like everything's a bit more jelly this time um which is fine i think i think you just get harder on yourself every time that you i don't

know more guilty as a mom i don't know but i just feel guilty what are you guilty i don't know what do you feel i don't know oh my god it's like a therapy session now yeah like no i'm fine i just i mean i think like okay that my boobs aren't working properly. Like, you know, things like that. I understand. I think I've, you know, it's like feelings that we have as mothers, of course, like on many levels. I think I feel slightly good with my mum too for doing everything at the moment.

But I think like, you know, obviously you're doing your best. I'm trying. I mean, I think like like and i don't want to talk about top of the pops buffalo stance too much but i feel like it kind of feels like there's a newborn over there and i it was really funny when i was pregnant with my first i remember kind of apologizing to the record company yeah and kind of being like i'm really sorry i'm gonna have a baby because i really want to be a mom. And they were like, don't. And it became this thing.

It was like, don't worry. We'll do a nene cherry. It'll be fine. Buffalo starts. She was on top of the pops. Buffalo starts. You've become like this poster woman for like every kind of working mother and music and kind of every. I know that you get asked about it all the time.

But it just feels so funny that it's become such a kind of every i don't i know that you get asked about it all the time but it just feels so funny that it's become such a kind of for me it was they they said don't worry like nana cherry it'll be fine yeah well that i'm gonna i'm glad that um that someone said that but did you think it was going to be such a statement doing it or did you just go right my song's really hot right now and i i'm gonna go on top of the pops was it considered but it was just one of these things I got pregnant and I have to admit that in the beginning it wasn't that I was confused about what I felt and what I wanted but I sat down and I was kind of asking a lot of questions about like is this the right time?

What's happening? Like, why is this happening right now? I was asking the questions because I felt like I had to ask them. But like in my insides, I knew that I was going to have the baby. And a friend of ours, mine and Cameron's, Ray Petrie, who was kind of the godfather of the sort of Buffalo Collective, had HIV. He had AIDS by then. And he was kind of like, look, I'm on my way out. I think you should have the baby, I think.

It's like one goes, another life comes in, you know. We were sitting in Soho Square. And I was like, yeah, like, what the fuck am I thinking about? Like, I know what I want. And I know that I can do all of the things that I want to do probably and if I can't I won't do them right now but I went to my record that my A&R guy Ashley Newton at Circa Records I kind of stood in there you know we'd like only I'd only just sign the contract kind of thing I was

like Ashley I'm pregnant isn't it terrible that you feel you have to apologize yeah i mean it's fucking ridiculous it's fine and i was like don't worry just like you said on the phone to your guy or woman guy i've seen here i go the guy um yeah guy and i was like i'm gonna be fine I'm gonna work really hard don't worry it's gonna be fine you know we'll be able to do pit we can always do pitches from even I think I probably said from the waist up type shit yeah obviously in the end that was like totally what we didn't do but and I think yeah there was a part of me that was just like so determined to do it and to make it good. That like sometimes when I probably felt fucking exhausted,

I didn't really take it. And that's why it's kind of interesting to talk about it because I think that I haven't actually sometimes reflected on some of the other layers than the kind of, the obvious details. But do you think part of the problem is the music industry is run by men yes and so fuck yeah and so they just don't understand so why aren't there more women in music

running music I mean it's such a big con I don't know like do you do you feel like I think maybe that's going to change and I think obviously there are some really cool women in really powerful places. And I think that like more women are wanting to occupy those kind of spaces. I think sometimes women have been driven into other areas, you know, partially because of the boundaries and that it's been so fucking hard to get through. But I think also more women are also more interested. Well, look, I mean... In, you know, like, getting in there and... Yeah.

Your daughter, Mabel's manager is Radha, who I adore, and she's... And I'm so proud of, you know, when Mabel rolled in the other day with Radha to eat some leftovers. I'd cooked a dinner for my... What were you eating? What was the leftovers? Well, I'll tell you what, my grandson turned 15 the other day.

You have a grandson? Yeah. So Naima, my eldest... She's 15? He just turned 15. It's so crazy. So Naima, my eldest daughter, we were like,

let's not go out to another restaurant and like spend hundreds of pounds like with a full table let's just like cook at home like this is what we do so I was um asked Flynn like well we're gonna cook at home is that cool get everyone over what do you want to eat so he basically took about two days um yeah just to kind of you know like he's very think he's thinking a lot you know and he's so he was thinking and then he eventually we got on the phone and he was like i want some brown stew

chicken um because i never got to have it at andrea's restaurant before they closed and stuff andy oliver she's now looking for another joint to open up again but anyway he missed the brown stew chicken there so he's like can i have some brown stew chicken? Can I have your peanut butter stew? I make like a West African peanut butter stew. Oh, yes. And he was like, can I also, I'd also like some fried chicken. So I fried some chicken. He went to town.

He went to town. Andrea's your gorgeous friend on Great British Bake Off. Andrea is my pretty. She's really warm. She is my. Everyone knows she's so anody. All of it. Has the best smile in the business.

And the best laugh. Oh, yes. best laugh oh yes right but she's warm and when she's kind isn't she i was saying if you're a food critic you've got to be kind a little bit even if you know better she was encouraging to all these young she's good right because she really comes from the heart and, you know, is really loving. And how are you friends? How do you know each other? Oh my God, we've known each other. I mean, now it's like, it's a lifetime. It's so nuts. We've like becoming like some of these people in like books that we've read that we were obsessed with, like, you know, Maya Angelou books or, you know, we met when we were, I think I was 16, she was 17.

And was it in London? It was in London. It was in the Middlesex Hospital. What were you doing there? Well, I was visiting her brother and she came to visit her brother who was in the hospital, who I was in a band with, a band called Rip, Rig and Panic. And basically, yeah, it was a funny time. So basically, we'd all been to Gaz's Rocking Blues the night before.

Was it in Sam Moritz Club then or not? It was in Gossips, downstairs in Gossips. Where's that? In whatever street that is in Soho. Okay. Like Dean Street, off Dean Street or something. We'd all been out. Well, I'd gone home by some other means.

And three of the other guys in the band got in a car possibly having had a few jars maybe mmm hit the middle of Cambridge Circus and Sean he broke his leg and had to have an operation but he also had sickle cell so I think it also brought on a sickle cell attack so he was in hospital with his leg up in a contraption thing and i used to i mean we we were all family but like sean and i were really good friends and um i used to cook for him and bring him food in the hospital and like read i think we used to like chat and read so i mean i I forgive me I didn't realize you were such a kind of like food is at the heart of it seems like it's it's very important food to me

isn't darling no I get more pressure yeah the food is like for me is like the center like I'm not a food snob but like when I go somewhere I think the food that i seek out is like the mama's food you know like i like soul food like i mean yes i like to go to like a fancy restaurant sometime and like you know sit in a brasserie and like you know so you thought you were a bit more fussy but i'm not a dairy no i'm not like because we we love. Oh, yeah. And she's on a bloody diet for this thing. Some crazy... Yeah, and she's so good at being... I'd be like, oh, yeah, I'm on the diet.

And they'd be like, oh, fuck it. Yeah, me too. I'll have some cream. I'll just shove it over there in the corner. She didn't even eat fruit. She couldn't eat fruit. What? Yeah, she's not having fruit at the moment.

Because of the sugar. Yeah. Shit. And it's for a role, and I respect it. But me, I don't have the willpower. I mean, I have... She's got a body like a wicked it but me i don't have the will i mean i haven't i haven't i have she's got a really a battle with will i mean she's a friend of mine too and i adore her but i think she's she's quite an obsessive person i think i think she's one

of those people she goes into it and once she's in there cameron my husband he's like that what does cameron do we he's a musician, a singer, producer. Oh you do everything together? We've been writing since since that first album Raw Like Sushi. Fantastic. I mean that's beautiful and quite amazing and you get on well still. Yeah we're good like we're great friends. I mean when we when the shit hit the fan hits, it's just like, get out of the house, anyone that's around, and people just literally just, because when we go for it, we go for it quite hard. But I think there's less and less of, like,

the drama around us, actually. I think, like, that's a really nice part of the journey is that we've kind of grown out of the ups and downs. We used to have a lot of ups and downs. But you write together. We write together. And he produced. And I can't write together with anyone else. I've tried, like I do with him.

Because of all of the things that we have between us, I usually come with something when we go into the writing space together. Like sometimes we start from scratch, but I definitely need some time also, like in my own headspace to formulate something. Yes. But yeah, he just, you know,

helps me bring out the best things that are there. How did you meet? We actually met at Heathrow Airport. Do you have hospitals, airports? Jesus, some of your most important... Who have you met at a petrol station? That's what I want to know. Good question.

Maybe that's yet to come. This is very interesting. But we met, we were on the same trip. We were like going to Japan. We were going to Japan. And he was part of the... Did you sit next to each other? No, we didn't sit next to each other.

And for about three days, I thought he was possibly a little bit of an asshole or, you know... And after three days, what happened after the three days that you thought he was a prat and then... Well, I didn't really think he was a prat, but, you know, I just... He was, like, very cool. Oh, he was cool.

But you're cool. And I was like, he thinks he's really cool, doesn't he? And I was like, does he intimidate me? I thought he felt the same about you. No, I'm not intimidated by him. No, he thinks he's really cool doesn't he and I was like does he intimidate me I was like no I'm not intimidated by him no no he's all right so I just went out anyway he was sitting on this trolley oh you know a airport thing with like a cowboy hat he was part of the buffalo kind of crew he's wearing like jeans with turnips and you know he had a look definitely anyway we said hi I can only imagine you had a look too can you remember what you were wearing I think I was

wearing like but I didn't have no money to like buy stuff so my stuff but gorgeous he would have felt intimidated do you think so I should ask him I've never asked him that he would have thought you were a bit out of his league so when boys think that they try and be cool yeah and then they become a bit out of his league. So when boys think that, they try and...

Be cool. Yeah. Yeah. And then they become a bit annoying. Maybe. I think. So he was on this trolley. Maybe that's why he's always a bit annoying.

Yeah, he was on the trolley. I said hi. And I, you know, I think I felt a bit... Were you playing a festival or were you doing... No, we were going to model for this guy, Takio Kikuchi. So this Japanese designer. And in the way that kind of like Comme des Garcons also, they used to do these kind of extravaganza shows where they'd have like,

so they wanted like a few people from the streets of London. Some people from the streets of London, you know, they had some hip hop crew from LA, some dancers. So you were like like you were in you were like part of a London scene and it music was happening and modeling and you're there and you're in Japan you meet this guy a cowboy this cowboy yeah and like after the third day I think we'd been we were out all you know we were going out a lot every night in Tokyo. Everyone was partying pretty hard. And I think on the second night, we had had a little dance.

And take note, it was a nut house, this trip. There were some, Cameron and James LeBond, this other friend of ours, set off the fire extinguishers on our floor. There were people everywhere. You were having fun. And if you went out on the street and looked up at the floor that we lived on, everyone had hung their phones out the window because because we were getting like phone calls every five minutes from the Japanese kind of organizers to make sure that we were all on time

it was just being so naughty so it was a nut house and then I uh we went to I think after three or four days third day we had the bus journey we went to another city think after three or four days, third day, we had the bus journey. We went to another city and we just started talking. And he was wearing shades on the bus, like in the dark kind of thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I could just see the, you know, a bit of the, you know, his blue eyes breaking through the glass. And I was like, oh, are yeah like I'm getting those eyes

they're like killing me so that was the start of that have you been back to Japan together with Cam no we haven't I've been back I went back with Mabel but I haven't been with Cam maybe we should we're going this summer oh my god I haven't even i haven't even thought about that mate it's like god japan where we met okay think of me as your ricky lake okay darling thank you so much yeah have you lived in england forever yeah well i came here in 80 that's a long time when you're 14 at 16 oh so i came here yeah i was like 50 i. So that's when you were 14. At 16. I came here. Yeah, I was like 50. I think I was like 16.

So where were you living before there? Just before I came here, I was in New York. But I'm like raised between Sweden and New York. And you live in London now. Now I live in London. And then for like 10 years, we came back five years ago. For 10 years, I went back to live in Sweden. I was living in stockholm

with my two younger kids i mean we've been a bit restless what was the reason to go back to stockholm school schools wanting to give the kids like better education is it pretty without having to literally queue up with a bunch of range rovers and you know pay millions and billions of pounds every term right in comparison to here you have a lot more choice were you educated in Sweden I was educated in Sweden and a bit in the States yeah um but my family traveled a lot what did your parents do my dad my well my stepdad was a jazz musician or a musician he's starting in jazz and then yes and then my mother was an artist also they collaborated and worked together for a long quite a long time when we were growing up and she made a lot of the kind of environments for the stage.

So my mother, like in the 70s, worked with material with cloth and made tapestries that they used to... That Don would tour with and use as a... Yeah, and she was kind of in the group and she would build these environments with her or hang the pieces on the stage so it would be a whole kind of universe which was kind of amazing and I guess maybe some of my of course yeah like

it of course it's affected me like that's where I came up that's how I came up so I think that notion of like when I got pregnant with Naima my firstborn I was 18 you know and I was like in a group I went to Sweden had her with her dad came back and six weeks after she was born we went on tour and I mean we were in a in a van like in a Ford Escort kind of type thing and I had the and I was just like okay I, I'm going to try this. Like, I grew up in a family where we moved around a lot. But my mother and the kind of unit of who we were as a family was always there. So I was like, well, if I can keep my child secure and keep our routines going,

we should be able to do this anywhere in theory. So I was like, well, we'll try it. I was like, well, obviously, if Naima is falling apart, so will I be, then we'll go home. But like my mother said to me when I was 18 and got pregnant with Naima, she was just like, don't shut your life down, you know? Don't make two separate lives. Like, make it all one.

And like, how do your girls talk about it do they talk about it really fondly and kind of I think it's me I think there's a mixture of feelings like in my own upbringing like some of it's really hard and you know we went to live in Spain when Tyson was four and Naima was older and I think there were like some really amazing aspects of us living in the mountains in Spain why did you but was it just for I think we've just always been you just move around people we've moved around like maybe sometimes a bit too much but like kind of looking for something you know a different way of life and it was kind of fun like everyone came to us tricky was around a lot but like in that time it was amazing after about four or five years I kind of started to miss

London and like for Naima who was 13 then it was really difficult for her being a teenager and stuff around there so we moved back I always end up back here right okay particularly when it's kind of time to work or time to get into the to the sort of uh the creative headspace but having said that I did a lot in Spain I mean we wrote basically the whole of what became the man album amazing while we've been chatting mum Mum has been in the kitchen. Thank you, Mum. Yeah, raised eyebrows right there. And somehow she's managed to whip up some oven-baked sea bream.

And Mum, is it with breadcrumbs and parsley and some chilli? Anchovia. Anchovia. Anchovia. I don't know what anchovia is. What is anchovia? I don't know, but it's got a bit of anchovy in it. Oh, my God.

It looks so good. There's some salt and vinegar potatoes which I hope, I haven't tasted them so they may need more salt. I'm really excited because I'm really hungry. Oh god yeah I'm sorry that we made you wait so long. This is good, we've worked up an appetite. Do you want any wine? You're not drinking at the moment?

No, no wine. I'm great. Do you want some wine mum? Do you want some wine? Oh okay. No, no wine. I'm great. Do you want some wine, Mum? Do you want some wine? Oh, OK. I was reading something about how you kind of set up a Notting Hill. It's like, well, no, like Carnival. It's like your house becomes a hub for all family and friends to use the loo because nobody can use the bloody loos anywhere.

So, like, are you letting strangers use the bloody loos anywhere so like you're letting strangers use the loos too or is it like not too many strangers come with those strangers like yeah no the people that like you pay to go to the loo i've done that plenty a couple people tried to come in last year did you say in the toilet and if they'd have been like cool about it and asked in a nice way, but they were just like being really rude and obviously trying to get in to possibly do more than just use the loo. So we were like, no, do you like carnival?

I love carnival. Have you performed at carnival? I have performed at carnival. What did you do? I played with Friggin Panic like a hundred years ago. And it was quite, it's quite, it was quite,

no, we just played on one of the stages. And I mean, panic like a hundred years ago and it was quite it's quite there was quite a system we won no we just played on one of the stages and I mean our music was kind of quite nuts so I'm quite surprised that we actually played there um but yeah play there and then I DJ'd once and that was a bit freaky frightening actually I felt a bit on out of place because I'm intimidated yeah i just like you know i'm like i dj sometimes i'm not really a dj like i play tunes and i just felt that i'm just kind of yeah at the best of days i'm a selector do you know what i mean so i just remember being there and just kind of losing my bottle looking at all these people on the street like oh my god like now I've got to turn it out it was all it was all right I only played like about five or six songs and I remember I actually learned a lesson that day because I had these tunes that I wanted to play and that I thought

would be really good and then I was sort of talking to a friend of mine about well what do you think I should play and he made some suggestions and i kind of changed my my little rotor around and played some of the tunes that he thought i should play and i think my tunes would have been better actually all right so i'm going to push you on this one you're going away for six months to a desert island a retreat what's your meal going to be before you go off oh this is the question and will there be dairy when if dairy wasn't an issue uh you know what i don't think that i really miss dairy anymore okay fine so i probably wouldn't accept something that i really love which is um sole mignon with swimming in butter yeah with spinach yeah i mean that is like i mean when i

go and that's one of my like dream things i like to do okay nice french brasserie linen tablecloths starter i think actually now you've also reminded me of like dream food we were in sardinia a few years ago i love sardinia italian food is actually yeah speaking of to me it's really soulful you know you can take like a spoon of olive oil and just be like this is amazing or eat a tomato it's like yes it's a fruit amazing um we went to there was a festival in southern Sardinia. And it was kind of dedicated to my dad. So it was an amazing summer because it was the last year before my mom died. And she had an exhibition there.

And we were all there and we all like performed a bit. Eagle Eye was there, my brother Tyson. Naima was there helping my mom with the art. And the guy who runs the festival and lots of the jazz guys that have known my mother for, you know, 30, 40 years were like treating her like a queen. They were like, hey, Moki, yeah, amazing. It was so beautiful. I'm so thankful that we had that journey.

And his wife, Novella, ran or runs a restaurant right by the beach. I mean, it was just off the hook. And of course, aslla, ran or runs a restaurant right by the beach. I mean, it was just off the hook. And of course, as it was Italy every day, even when there was lots to do, it was like, we are breaking for lunch. It's like, what about all the stuff, the sound checks? And it's okay. We have lunch.

I love that. Yeah, it's so great. And it's not like a short lunch. It'll be like, oh, just dances. Yeah. And so there, they had their own dried tuna. Dried tuna? Yeah.

Which she would just put a little bit of olive oil on for a starter. And they would bring it. So good. And literally, like, she would bring all these, like, whatever they'd fished out that day. But that starter. So, dried tuna. Is it like carpaccio of tuna it's like you know you can get they do it in spain and portugal too and it's called mojama i think i don't know

m-o-j-a-m-a if i'm i've seen the word and you just slice it really thinly and she would just this woman novella her her mom made the olive oil so it the olive oil? Yeah, from their little farm. And the wine was from somewhere else, excuse me. And that was probably like on my list of like food. It was like kind of gourmet. It was like very sensual, but like full of soul. And just sitting there with the kind of salty sea air and like all these people.

And she made her own limoncello so after dinner after lunch we'd all drink limoncello i never really liked limoncello but it was nice but it was nice with the cream she did it speaking of speaking of cream she had she made it with a creamy one in with milk in wow it's really good or cream or something which was really good and dessert your favorite dessert i'm i'm not a big i'd probably say something like um like a toffee thing like the other day we went on my birthday and ate at the clapton country club i think it's called i had a really nice sund lunch, which is one of my favorite things. Me too.

Love Sunday lunch. Which roast do you like the best? I like beef. Yeah, me too. If it's like soft, good beef with a Yorkshire pudding. Oh my God. Good gravy. Gravy.

Love gravy. Love gravy. So, but a dessert, that was the last kind of dessert that I was. Sorry, my babe's out. Sorry. The last dessert that I really like put myself into. And that was like a kind of sticky toffee kind of type thing. Oh, yeah, I love that.

But I don't think you can have sticky toffee without the clotted cream or the cream. No, that's when I like break off and go off piste. And I can do that because I'm not allergic to dairy. But you feel like shit after it. But I just feel. No, I didn't feel that bad because most of the time I behave quite well. So my body can tolerate. But I get, I have a weakness. I get bronchitis.

So if I like abuse myself with dairy and stuff. Do you think dairy causes it? It brings down my immune, like lowers my immune and it more mucus and but also my stomach doesn't really approve that much but i'm good like when it's worth it then i'm like okay i'm gonna go for a bit of cream what would you drink what would you drink with that meal yeah um i don't think she's a big drinker i don't i'm well i a glass of wine. I mean, let's not lie, or a glass of champagne. But I just, it doesn't really work for me so well anymore. But I'd say if I was going to eat, if I was going to, like, in my old school era,

a Sunday roast beef with a Yorkshire pudding and a really good glass of red wine would be great can i ask you know how people are stockpiling for brexit if there was one thing from europe that you thought that you needed to stockpile what would you do olive oil me too yeah i think because i love so i was gonna say it was like, but maldon salt is my favorite. It would be like good olive oil. Yeah. Are you a stickler for table manners? Do you have expectations? I like good table manners.

What's the worst table manner that you can't tolerate? I mean, I've always been like with my kids. Like, I've been sitting a little bit today. I said, like, they're at a bus stop, a bus station. I'm like, sit up straight. I hate it when people eat and don't look up from the plate. You know, like this kind of thing.

Shoveling it in, head down, and feeling like they're eating so fast that they're not actually tasting it. That would be me. That would be me. You can't share with Jessie because she eats it before you. Next time we go out for dinner, Nanette,

I will slow down. Don't have a sharing thing. I think it's the same from being a mum. It's like I'm stressing. You're very slow. I'm sorry to be rude. Yeah, but now I'm talking. No, I wouldn't eat this slow normally.

I've just been like talking. I've made a chocolate and courgette cake. And it's got no dairy in. Amazing. Will you have a little bit? I'd love to have a bit. Some raspberries? Okay, fine.

Can I have a cup of tea? Yes! What kind of tea would you like? Something herbal. Mum has made... Yeah cake yeah this is light as a feather yeah she's iced it i can't even and let's just uh for the record nana's having a little bit of creme fraiche just because because why not because it's shit without it because it's shit without it yeah and this just demanded a little taste i know it's worth it so i'm doing it i haven't asked you about growing up uh what food was like in your house like did your mum cook or did your stepdad cook um and if so what were they cooking like what is

the kind of family childhood meal memory that you have my mother cooked my dad didn't really cook my mother learned to cook from my father so my biological father yeah when they were together he was a great cook and was it a lot of sierra leone he cooked a lot of african okay yeah and sierra leonean but yeah what is what is like special um in s Leone? What's their kind of go-to dish? They have a dish called gring-gring, which I love, which is okra. Yeah, I love okra. And it's like very slimy. They cook it really well.

Some people hate it. I love it. That's what she doesn't love. I love it. Me too, but she doesn't like it. I roasted some okra yesterday and it turned out really good. Not so slimy. But the gring-gring is like like a leaf cassava leaf or potato leaf

they call it but it's like a spinachy kind of leaf so it's okra spinach onion seasoning obviously dried fish and meat cooked into it i mean it's just like and and it's quite spicy um and then we went through like my parents were, we were all vegetarian. And so we went, you know, there was a whole period when we were growing up when there was a lot of, you know, brown rice and lentils and miso. Oh, God. And all of that stuff. And I was, I was like, I had a nose for meat. What country was this?

Between Sweden and New York. Like my parents bought an old schoolhouse in the countryside in Sweden. And, you know, their thing was really like wanting to go kind of off grid, you know, and like be self-sufficient, grow their own food. Having a place where musicians and artists could meet and make and create. And it wasn't a commune, like, don't get me wrong. Like, my house was not a commune, but there were always a lot of people there. How many people?

And coming through there. How many people? It depends. Like, sometimes we would maybe be five or six for dinner. Sometimes we'd be like 19 or 20. Bloody hell. And somehow my mother managed to keep it all together. And, you know, there were times when people would come and stay like my

mother tell this funny story of like the limit that some people had stayed at our house for a couple weeks during the summer and the wife and this couple was like very sort of militant about this whole sort of whole food scene and my mother had started taking her little camping kitchen into her studio to make her daily pot of espresso because this woman was like, no one can drink any coffee. Oh, she was hiding. So my mother would take her goulash, you know, and her black coffee, go and sit behind her sewing machine and, you know, in her studio and drink her coffee. And then one day she came into the kitchen and these people had made like dandelion pancakes or something and she was just like okay that's it get out no more kind of thing get out um so that went on for a few years and then

she just decided like one day that it was time to roast the chicken and i'll never forget that day it was amazing best day of your life it was fabulous she'd put a chicken in the chicken and I'll never forget that day it was amazing best day of your life it was fabulous she'd put a chicken in the oven and literally some of my friends turned up in the yard and I can remember like coming over to visit I can remember opening the window like screaming out the window we're gonna have chicken that's amazing but she made amazing food and so in a way like almost every day when I do stuff I realize how much my mother gave me like and actually by the time I left home when I was 16 even though I was a little run and I obviously thought that I was bigger than I was

I was quite equipped from being around my mother. Left home at 16. You left New York at 16, 15, 16. Came here on your own. I came here to visit my friend, Ari. And just never left. Who was a singer in the slits. And then we just, I just kind of ended up hanging out.

I wasn't going to school we became like really really really good friends but kind of like sisters where we were like you know spooning sleeping back to back sharing clothes sharing everything so I just stayed and then was your mum annoyed that you left school no I think my, when I kind of unofficially left school, was kind of relieved because I was just like... But you're so bright. I don't know, do you think so? Oh, I do. I mean, I lack things.

You're thoughtful and bright. Oh, bless you. And you're interested and read and... Yeah. Well, that was my thing when I left school. My mother was like, if you're not going to go to school for a while I want you to read these books like you have to read and do stuff you can't just like lie around so she gave me things like Isaac Bashevi's singer books

100 years of solitude best book you know James Baldwin like so I was like reading all those books and then we'd kind of talk about them and and like before when I was still going to school I was going to a little like small town school where we lived in Sweden and I was just miserable and I just felt really out of place and I started hanging out with these kind of rough local so-called roughnecks that were kind of semi-racist they're kind of like a gang but not really but you know they drive old American like vintage cars and like listen to 50s and 60s music and like literally then you know some of them have like quiffs and it's like really when they drive around and they can't this is me so i was like called like toe rag or something okay so they think they're like the t-shirts so they're kind of like

you know like driving around in a lot of small towns like trying to you know scare the shit out of people or something so that was like the most dangerous thing i could kind of get myself into did you have to dress up in like no no no i mean there's not like policy that you have to like dress up as maybe they were like the bad boys but they were the bad boys basically the local girls always attracted to the so that was the first you know the ones that spin the at the fairground yeah the you know the edge trying to get out to the edge and then it was just like not really that cool and it wasn't really making me particularly happy and I didn't definitely didn't feel particularly fulfilled or you know any of those things so I just got up one morning and I actually had a horrible hangover because I'd been out at some like weird disco by a lake

and I'd like drank all this vodka that someone had in the trunk of his car. It was like so depressing. And I got back somehow and I woke up in the morning and I was like feeling really sick and I just got sick all over the kitchen. I'd literally just been drinking water. But my mom was like in another room and somehow luckily I managed to clean it up. And then I think I just went into her because I was going to stay. We have some family friends that live near to us.

And I was going to stay with them for the winter whilst my mother went to New York because we were doing kind of half-half. And I was like, I decided to stay to go to school. And I think after that incident in the kitchen I just went into my mother I was like I'm coming with you to New York and when she went to my head my teacher my head teacher at the school that I was going to that she was actually like good get her out of here yeah she was like make her leave and then yeah like then I became a punk like literally he's been in London hang around with Basquiat I didn't hang around with him I'm not I'm I used to see him in New York um did you used to go to Paradise Garage and I went to Paradise Garage a few times

did you go to Studio 54 never went to Studio 54 but they were after, wasn't it? But they were older than me. Like, we were, me and my friends went to the clubs. We started going out young. We were, like, 14, 15. But we knew everyone at, like, the Mud Club, Tier 3, Hurrahs. We could always get in. There was this one great guy, Harry Monty, that was, like, the main doorman at, like, Danceteria and stuff. And he was always like, let the kids in, you know, let them in.

But yeah, I could, there's one thing, like one night we went to a party and Basquiat and, you know, the white haired. Warhol. Warhol, Andy Warhol. They were like at the back. It was like in Basquiat's loft downstairs and on the, like storefront loft.

And there was like a DJ and we were like, they were all down at the back. They'd ordered like Mr. Chow's takeaway at the back. And like all of the, him and Warhol and his maids were all back there. The rest of the party was like down where all his paintings were stored, which was a trip. Amazing. In racks. Wow. The DJ, yeah.'t i didn't know

him but like you'd see him around in the city like the most exciting life but you know it's just that i'm kind of old it's like oh i mean why do you look younger than me oh shit please It's like How old are you? 55 Baby girl Fuck You look amazing Yeah Thank you bless you I feel very tired at the minute I wondered why you were going through menopause

She said she's going through menopause Oh did you? Oh okay I thought but she's like 40 odd For a few years now Two years? I started menopause at 54 It goes on for that long?

Yeah That's quite late. Yeah, it was late. It's odd. It's weird. It is so strange. And I absolutely think the hormones that you lose when you don't have a period, it makes you feel good, those hormones.

What, having a period? The ones that make you ovulate are the hormones that make you feel youthful, to be honest. So I'm not surprised. It's weird. Do you have hot? I'm like the last, well, it comes and goes. I never have the hot things. And I haven't been having them during the day.

I only have them at night. You get night sweats, which are horrendous. The night sweats are dread. Like the last few nights have been fine, but I had a couple nights or literally a couple of weeks where I was just, I mean, not just sweaty. Just you have to change the whole thing. Yeah, like completely soaked. The other thing is your thermostat doesn't really work very well. Do you remember I used to say, is it hot in here or is it me?

Constantly I was hot, but I'm not hot anymore. No, it gets better. And I think like a couple of years years ago I also kind of like really gave me the blues I literally had like three kind of psychotic experiences and I realized afterwards that my like my menopause like the the fear and the anxiety that I had and like like I'm awkward and I'm like shy but like I haven't suffered. I'm not the sort of person that gets really like neurosis or really, really freaked out generally. Or I've just been quite good at covering it up. But I was like had these overwhelming like anxiety attacks that just sent me into a kind of whirlwind of total.

Yeah. Like really literally. luckily not and then in retrospect when I kind of came out the other side I was like shit actually probably some of this is hormonal stuff and then I felt really kind of almost embarrassed that I didn't have more insight and understanding of like what is happening to me people talk no not even women people don't talk about anything straight I think it's quite strange like that that we don't talk about these things more I talk about everything with my sisters my friends. And I feel lucky and blessed because I have older and younger friends. You know, like a lot of my mother's closest friends have become my really close friends.

But I just realized, I don't know. I don't know. I was like, I don't know anything about what's happening to me. No, you don't. And like, I didn't want to know. And I've had that whole fear. And I was like, God, I am carrying this kind of like, oh, you know, this hangover of it being like kind of unsensual, like that it's a kind of sell by date that you're nearing.

And then on the other side, it's like, oh, yeah, but that's it. Then you're kind of not fertile and therefore kind of done. It's a horrible thing. It's like invisible, like a kind of done it's horrible so it's like invisible like a kind of invisible and then yeah it's it's remarkably absurd how where it where it's kind of an ending of something and i felt quite sad yeah i was like as much as i've struggled with my periods and you know being pre-menstrual and all that. I felt really empty. I was like, and at the same time, you know,

my youngest child was moving out. And then all of a sudden it was like, kind of, she was still at home, but you know, she's moved out and I'm really happy for her. But it was like, I was like, okay, like what the fuck am I supposed to do now? And like, how do I, like the idea of like, oh, I still have a lot of things to do and that's great and I still feel vital and now I'm going to do all this stuff just I can spend lots of time thinking

about me and I was like you know how do I do that and is that what I want to do I tell you something it doesn't change they come back then oh yeah. And then they need you in a different way. And, yeah. I feel much better. I feel, even though I'm still going through it. This child never wants to sleep. You can't change his nappy. I'll change his nappy when we're not having lunch.

I'm going to put him in the sling. This cake is so good. It's good, isn't it? I'm so crazy. I want to ask you, though. You know, you say that, you know, menopause, and you felt, and your daughter moving out, and you kind of felt like, what's going on? I've got all this time to, you had an album coming out.

You've got, but did it just not feel as kind of sweet to be doing work? No, it felt really important. Okay. Because I think actually making the album saved me. Yeah. Because I did feel like I had all this stuff hanging around me that I needed to, to kind of get out and actually at the other side of it and actually inside of myself the whole time, there was also a niggling voice that was just like, I know that this isn't it. Do you know what I mean? I'm going through something and going through changes is a

difficult process, like getting over a threshold in your life. And life is full of them, right? And this was another threshold. And I knew that I'm not, you know, I am not someone like that's going to succumb to fucking ageist hypocrisy. Like I know that at the other side of this, I'm a vital woman.

Me and Andy were actually saying recently, like it's great in a way we're and Andy were actually saying recently like it's great in a way we're doing our best work I think it's really inspiring because I think you're making brilliant music and you're doing it in your own like your own terms the album's beautiful and I love how kind of it tells stories and other people's stories and and yours and my name is is it my name is Nene and yeah I don don't know. It felt so special and exciting. I think, yeah, like when we wrote, we just had a really amazing kind of journey, Cam and I.

Like we just literally really found a space where we were just kind of like the outside world just kind of left us alone. It sounds like that. And we just did like 10 12 songs quite quickly and then kieran hebden forte is a genius he's a genius and i felt like he managed to do what he managed to do was kind of bring all of the elements from kind of the other albums into this one into the soundscape so it felt very much like doing a full circle which i think was really nice i really

thank you for doing this because i we could keep on chatting food was amazing good i need the cake recipe oh that was a good one it was for 24 people yeah we're happy do you want to take some home for cam yeah yeah Now take that cake to Cameron and say that I think, I demand that you go to Japan soon to relive when you first met. I'm going to tell him. Thank you for having me.

And congrats on a great record. Bless you. And congratulations to you. Oh, thank you. My son just had a photo with an icon. I know, darling. I mean, she's a fantastic woman. And so interesting, and just has lived such an interesting life. And I felt very honoured that she decided to have lunch with us.

I mean she's a real woman's woman. Yeah, girl's girl. Yeah. And was very, the food was really good today mum. Good. The simplicity. You might think it's simple darling. No, but what I'm saying.

There's a lot of skill goes in there. No, there was something very clean about it. It felt quite like master chef-y, full of flavour. Yeah, well planned darling. No, obviously. Yes. about it it felt quite like master chefy full of flavor yeah but you know darling no obviously yes asparagus had the right crunch yep that was really good yep and that cake is i think that could be your bring a cake to a party dish yeah that was heaven it's gorgeous isn't it it was light tell they had courgettes in it No I think it's just for moisture

Maybe I'll give it to my girl tonight My little girl Of course She'll be so happy Chocolate Do you like chocolate cake Chocolate How annoyed are you that she had the creme fraiche with the cake

Dairy free But mum thank god for nana You've just got a brilliant new cake up your sleeve yeah it's true a dairy free cake yeah it's a good cake it's a bloody good one I'm really pleased with it

thank you so much for listening to Table Manners what a treat to have Nenna Cherry on and just kind of listen to everything her stories

yeah her stories are so brilliant and I do think she should go to Japan very soon with the camera and mum thank you that was a really good lunch.

The Table Manners music you have been enjoying is by Pete Fraser and Peter Duffy. And our dear editor and producer is Alice Williams.