Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S9 Ep 20: Munroe Bergdorf

Episode Date: June 17, 2020

Today we have the incredible activist and model Munroe Bergdorf on Table Manners. We were so lucky to have one of the UK’s leading black trans queer voices on our podcast at this pivotal time, straight off her massive victory and reconciliation with L’Oreal after being dropped for speaking out about racism and white privilege three years ago. We find out how her name started off on the drag scene, her transition at 24, whilst also discussing forgiveness, progress and Octopus. Munroe tells us about the lockdown queer commune she’d been living in with Jessie's old time collaborator & mate Kate Moross and how she’s dreaming of sitting back in Nando’s. We discuss bad first dates and learn new facts about crustaceans from this surprise marine expert!  Munroe, you inspire and educate us via social media every day and we loved spending the eve over Zoom with you....but I'm holding you to that Nicki Minaj impression beb! XFor more information on Mermaids - the charity that supports gender-diverse children and young people visit https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/Produced by Alice Williams Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm sorry that you can't have Jessie doing the intro as normal but she's shoving food in her face because it's the best takeaway she's ever had and she's not cooking and she's eating and in a minute she might even speak when she's swallowed the last mouthful of her delicious takeaway from jaconi i'm not going to do another mouthful i do have three quarters of the meal left however i will be professional that was not bad mum thank you so much hello everyone and welcome to table manners god damn it i mean i've been in my pajamas all day my son was up all night i was like i can't do it i can like, I can't do it. I can't move. Mum brings over chicken soup.

I thank you very much. I then order cake on Deliveroo. Anyway, then Jocony sent me this Zen box. What is Jocony, darling? Jocony is an amazing restaurant in Marylebone that Jay Rayner took me out to when I did his podcast out for

lunch oh yeah he took me there he's been a big fan of Ravinda's cooking for years she is so glamorous so wonderful and like does flavor like no one else anyway she's just like you darling hmm not today anyway she sent me they're doing different boxes for different days and I chose the zen box because you know that's my middle name and it's amazing it's charred pak choy with sesame and crispy shallots silken tofu with black vinegar incredible crispy cauliflower caramel cauliflower and garlic rice and it is insane mom you heat it up everything's recyclable and um i'm trying to wolf it down i'm so sorry that you can hear this but i just want to say thank you to ravinda because not only is her restaurant so wonderful and it's such a local kind of neighborhood sport i mean for those people

that live in marylebone those lucky people and yours chicken soup the kids wolfed did they like the matzo balls of course they did mother mom do you i know that you're a grandma and a mother and a business partner to me and yeah but do you want to be my personal chef to my children because they only eat your food yeah i'm sick to death of it well i love it i love that they eat your food but i'm sick to death did you take my meatballs did you give them that we're spacing this shit out so that basically they have a lenny meal every day it's like their mcdonald's they have a gaga meal and then like they'll eat it anyway so today we have the activist and model and brilliant monroe bergdorf coming on she's had quite the week where she had a triumph with a long well well, it was a dismissal by, she got fired by L'Oreal for speaking out about white privilege and racism and systematic racism.

And now there has been some closure in that and some really positive change this week. And it just shows what happens when people come together and listen and protest and change can happen. So it's amazing what's happened this week for her i'm really interested to chat to her i've been uh following her for a while on twitter and instagram and she's incredibly informative within the trans community lgbtq plus community and black community so she is a a brilliant voice and I'm looking forward to chatting to her. Mum wrote, thank you for doing this. I know it's been quite a busy week for you, babe. So it's been a bit of a week. Yeah, I'm doing good. You know, it seems every year that

I have a scandal. So I'm really happy that this one has been quite positive. And it's been a nice resolve to a situation that's kind of followed me around for the past three years. And I don't think in this day and age, we really see many resolutions or reconciliations. It seems that, you know, we're very polarised in these days. And you know, everyone's getting cancelled on the internet. People are just, you know, really fed up with how things are. So it's nice to have a bit of good news. And I'm glad to be part of it. Well, congrats. It's so well deserved. And just to kind of put in context, I why don't you explain it because you'll explain it far better than me okay so three years ago I was let go shall we say from a beauty campaign um a makeup campaign by L'Oreal and my job is um I'm an

activist and I speak about um certain um topics that may seem controversial to some people. Some people may not have heard of certain things I speak about. And three years ago, no one was really talking about white privilege. We hadn't had that conversation. Of course, within activist circles, everybody was talking about it. And I used my platform to speak about issues that I thought were it was you know important so um yeah I spoke about it and um it was in response to the rally in Charlottesville the white supremacist rally where they were holding tiki torches and a woman was

killed um because they drove a car into her and my response to that was very emotional very angry very I've had enough of how this country and other western countries don't own up or speak about their legacy and of racism and it's still here today and we don't we're not acknowledging it and I was just basically I was pissed off so I I said it and um then the Daily Mail ran a story on me and basically called for me to be sacked I was sacked and there wasn't really any duty of care and basically I just you know got eaten alive by racist transphobes homophobes bigots sexists misogynists it's pretty much everybody cut to three years in the future I've established myself as an activist I think people have a little bit more of an idea about what who I am as a person and what I stand for and we're having all of these conversations with regards to race and

gender identity that we weren't having three years ago um and I'm really proud of my I just wanted like take a minute to say that I'm really proud of our communities um even like you know cisgender women as well for having conversations such as me too um and times up and you know the transgender conversation that's come so far in the past three years and now I feel like we're in the process of tying everything together and realizing that just because our journeys are different doesn't mean that they're any less valid than each other you know that we should be all be there for each other I should be fighting for cis women cis women should be fighting for trans women black people should be fighting for white people and vice versa um so we're getting there now and then three years in the future

L'Oreal posted a post on their Instagram saying that they stand with black lives which would be amazing but they hadn't wrapped up or dealt with the situation with me so I was looking at it just like wait a minute what about me so I got angry and basically um you can find the post on my Instagram I was angry I was um very frustrated because it it plays into a narrative of black women especially trans black women being ignored and being the exception um from society and you don't really need to deal with us because we're, you know, the 1%, the other 1%. So yeah, I posted that. And then all of my followers basically rallied behind me and held the brand accountable.

The brand was amazing, actually. They took their time to get back to me. But in that time time they were putting together a plan to work with me so we had a conversation on the phone me and the brand president was she a new brand president she's a new brand president so the team that fired me is not the team that's here now right okay so that was really encouraging for me to hear. Obviously, team members were there, but like the people that fired me are no longer in control. And yeah, we just had a very vulnerable conversation that was more human to human and woman to woman rather than, you know,

talent to client or talent to brand. And I was just saying, you know, when you employ an activist, you essentially employ someone that is taking their trauma and trying to make something positive out of that. So you've got to take into consideration everything that I've been through and that other people have been through that you employ. So after speaking to the president, that you employ um so after speaking to the president l'oreal they actually asked me to come on board and consult for them and the uk diversity and inclusion board which is very exciting because i get to you know be a voice for um black people trans people queer people and people that encompass all of those identities as well and I don't think that enough people realize you know how underrepresented we are in the industry so it's exciting to be that voice in the room and

take up a seat at the table so I'm very happy that it's come to a positive conclusion and also they gave a generous donation to your charity that you're a patron of they did they gave 25 000 euros to mermaids uh which is yeah an amazing charity looking after trans kids and their and their families they help trans kids acclimatize to um their feelings or help kids that are going through a transition and their parents understand their kids so help bring everybody together and uk black pride 25 000 euros to uk black pride which is um it's annual pride um ceremony or um event where um it's it's not just for black people it's for everybody but it's celebrating um people from culturally diverse backgrounds and different sexualities, different gender identities.

It's just basically a safe space where everybody can have fun. There's amazing food, there's cookout stalls, there's live performances, there's debates, everything. So I think it's been a positive week. It's been a closing of a negative chapter and wrapping it up into something good. That's how I came across you. It was you being, was it the first transgender model that L'Oreal had used? Black transgender model. And so it was like this big celebration. I was the first trans model, yeah.

And it was colour matching, wasn't it? So they were doing all these different foundations. So Clara Amfo was in the campaign. You were in the campaign. All different women were in there these different foundations. So Clara Amfo was in the campaign. You were in the campaign. All different women were in there with different coloured skin. And actually Clara stepped back from the campaign when they struck you off

because she didn't agree and she stood up. I mean, we adore Clara. She's wonderful. Clara's fantastic. I mean, I feel like I'm learning so much from, I mean, so many people out there, but particularly you, Clara, your platforms have been so educational and informative

and important for people like me. So thank you. I want to know how has lockdown been for you and with all that is going on? Are you living on your own at the moment? I'm on my own at the moment, yes. But- So am I, so am I so am I it's lovely

isn't it kind of and kind of yeah I'm sick of it oh I need to hug someone well I've been I've been I was locked down with actually a mutual friend of ours Jessie Kate Moross yes so I was locked down with Kate and like they they're just the most amazing person like one of my best friends and so yeah it was lovely I was locked down with them and their um girlfriend so for the first two months it was phenomenal and then it got to the point where we were like maybe I should like you know move out because I found my my um my my tenancy came to an end right at the beginning. What? Your tenancy, what, at Kate? No, my tenancy.

No, right, your actual tenancy. Yeah, my actual tenancy came to an end just as lockdown was about to start. So I was like, how am I going to find a place right now? And Kate was like, you know what, come and live with me. So it was actually really lovely we had this little queer commune going on and we were there for each other we all had our bad day but we didn't have a bad day at the same time as anybody else so it was it was really really really lovely and I don't think that it could have been a better lockdown to be honest so so okay you

moved out of Kate's and then you found somewhere to live I yeah I'm living on the river at an undisclosed location but um I love it it's beautiful it's um somewhere in East London and yeah I haven't lived in East London for about five years so um it's a nice change and I've got three adorable I got two puppies and one kitten three adorable little poo makers running around um I know so hold on how many dogs were in Kate's then it was four dogs no I got them just about three weeks ago oh a covid puppy well that is a covid it's a cup covid puppies but um yeah i think i might be because um they're having competitions of who can poo and then step in it and then tread it all around the house so it's it's are they are they what sort of puppies are they they're very small so combined

they make up a big puppy so um i've got i've got a Chinese crested which is like a hairless dog and I got a hairless cat I know I need to see these I need to see these dogs and cats I'll send you pictures okay amazing and um a miniature Yorkshire Terrier are they all getting on well they all get on like a house on fire they do this thing where they all do like a three-way snog oh wow sounds fun mum you should get involved you see it you you see it and you're just like this feels like i shouldn't be here like i feel like i feel like i'm that person in um the situation that isn't having fun are vets open yet vets are open yeah okay fine dentists open this week didn't they mom my poor mother-in-law lost her veneer the

first week of lockdown she's been kind of toothless like this wouldn't do face time you know what though i i was i had the fear as well because i got my teeth done in turkey and i just thought you know like the borders are shut so if my teeth go like bad or if one of them falls out then i'm just gonna have to be sat there with like toothless well one of my veneers came off and i had to oh i thought i was gonna kill myself i rang up one one one as an emergency no you didn't i did and i said my tooth has come off and they honestly he virtually took my blood group my size of my feet who i was dating and then said we can't help you well yeah and i said what am i supposed to do i can't smile and speak

and the man said that i had to stick it in with temporary stuff which was fine and i did manage that but none of the chemists everywhere had sold out of the temporary stuff to stick it back on everyone's teeth were falling out teeth was falling out and then I a friend of a friend did it for me last week put it back on connections dental connections look flawless so so mum row you you're an Essex girl I'm an Essex girl. I'm an Essex girl. You would never guess though. I grew up on the Hertfordshire side. Darling. So I went to school actually with our mutual friend, Sam Smith. Did you?

I didn't know that. Not in the same school, but in the same area. So I think that they went to Bishopsdorf for college and I went to Bishopsdorf for high school. Got it, got it, got it. So they're on the same road pretty much. So yeah, I think Charlie XCX was in our town as well at that time.

A hub of creatives and activists. Random. Yeah. Do you know what actually though? It's such a dead area. Like there's literally nothing going on. And I think that it really just forces you if you are creative

or if you do want the world to change, then you've got a lot of time to think about it. So yeah, I came from that area. Do you come from a big family? I don't. I have a brother. He lives in Canada. And he's he's super cool. He does marketing for a yoga firm, I believe. But yeah, my parents are still together. And I'm very like both of them but in different ways like my dad is very very chilled out but then explodes he like bottles things up emotionally then explodes and my mum is uh very very feisty and goes for what she wants and won't listen to the word no and so I've got both of them inside of me in different aspects. What did your dad and mum, did they work?

Yeah, my dad is a carpenter, but he's retired. And my mum is also retired. And she was the head of Europe for a banking PR firm. Oh, wow. I know, she was very businessy and my dad was very creative. So what was on the dinner table? Who was cooking dinner? What were you eating? What's a really memorable meal from your childhood? Very memorable meal from my childhood is chicken, just chicken every single way. And I feel like

from like Jamaican chicken to Spanish chicken to roast chicken it was always very much the meal that would bring us together so you would know that one of my parents was in a good mood if they were if they were cooking chicken so what did they cook when they were in a bad mood beans on toast probably didn't mind it though did you you were probably like I love beans on toast yeah um but yeah it's it's very much like a meal that I cook myself now if I miss my parents or if I miss um home comforts if I'm away then Spanish chicken's my go-to and something very spicy I think that spices have always been something that I've been raised with and make me feel a certain kind of way in fulfilled. And I don't know, there's a richness to spice, isn't there?

It just brings back a memory. And yeah, chicken and spices always bring back the good times. So what's the Spanish chicken? What's in a Spanish chicken? So Spanish chicken. Oh, my God. Spanish chicken is paprika but also chili so it's a bit of a bastardized Spanish chicken honey and tomatoes fresh bind tomatoes would you ever put chorizo in there I'm not a big chorizo girl you know me neither actually I love it do you eat by flavor or consistency

oh god Mamrou you may have just given us the question of the series that we may have to ask everybody really I've never ever thought about this it's true though all the great on MasterChef they always say it gives it a crunch or um a different texture or yeah what's your go-to what's your go-to texture off it because I I'm much more of a texture person if something has a horrible texture but tastes nice I can't eat it it needs to have a bit of both but I need a good texture so hon so you're not a doll kind or a soup person then no I'm not a soup person I can't eat soup oh how strange interesting yeah if I have soup then it needs to be a thick soup like a custody soup I can't have like a miso or something that is like

my worst texture one of those chunky vegetables literally look like vomit in my oh I love that and that's the kind of soup that you'd go for but I don't like pears because I don't like the texture okay so maybe they're kind of grainy you know earthy I love a pear texture oh you see we are yin and yang tonight funny I know I'm a flavor person I'll do anything as long as it's got good flavor that's my thing I'm sticking with that that is my final answer do you know what is absolutely incredible something called tahini. Tahini or tahini? Is it tahini or tahini? Is it spicy or?

You put it on enchiladas and it's kind of like sweet but spicy. And it's like, it's like a salty kind of. How do you spell it? T-A-G-I-N. you can put it on a watermelon and it tastes the most amazing thing i've ever tasted in my life is it the stuff that you have with margaritas around the rim it might be no that's salt you don't know it's like spicy with a bit of lime it's quite like oh yeah it might be that it might be that yeah i bought that i bought that was that was a lockdown buy for me the most incredible thing that you've ever tasted?

It's excellent. It works very well on avocado on toast. Okay. Can I tell you a recommendation for a watermelon that I found out on lockdown? If there is a yellow circle, do you know this already? No. If there is a yellow circle on the skin, on the outside it'll be like a little faded yellow circle on the skin it means it's going to be a sweet one oh because there's nothing more

there's nothing more disappointing about getting a melon that doesn't taste of anything agreed agreed so growing up it was it your mom or your dad doing the cooking or was it a bit of both? It was mainly my mum. My mum did kind of, you know, the big meals. My dad did the after school meals. He was very much like a beige food guy, unless it was spaghetti bolognese or chilli. He does a really good chilli. Chilli's also my go-to dish as well. I love doing like a chocoblock chili which isn't really a chili because it's got too many different vegetables in it that aren't traditional to chili but I just think it's a great way for me to load up on my vitamins because if I you know I would just work and work and work and forget to eat or and also I used to have anorexia so sometimes when I'm stressed or go through a stressful situation I perhaps don't eat as much as I should do so yeah it's a really really good

way of me loading up on all of my all of my vegetables and vitamins and yeah I just find it really really hearty I just think it makes me feel really warm inside and reminds me of my dad and reminds me of my um my mum as well when she cooks it so I don't know I always gravitate towards food that reminds me of my parents I've never really thought about that before do you see them a lot now I haven't seen my parents since just before lockdown so I saw them just oh my god have I seen them this year I saw my mum for her birthday in January and then that was the last time that I've seen them oh god I'm gonna cry don't you make me cry I cry very easily I really miss them I really miss them yeah when she moved out I she was living with me and I loved it because I had my grandchildren

you didn't say you loved it that much you whined about me and my mess I didn't love the mess yeah your mess Jessie's very messy so am I I'm awful creative it's creative is it because you're creative yeah create mess were you an activist at school I wasn't you know what I had the worst experience at school I was the only black kid and I was the only out gay kid as well I came out when I was 14. So I came out very, very early. There was no hiding it anyway, to be honest. And yeah, I just didn't really fit in and I was bullied a lot.

So I in turn was very hostile to other people because I was scared of, you know, either being let down or that they would turn on me or that they would bully me. So I very much, you know, either being let down or that they would turn on me or that they would bully me. So I very much, you know, just kept everybody at arm's length. And there was a point where I was eating my food at lunchtime in the toilets because I had no friends to eat with. So it wasn't a great experience. No.

Did you leave school as soon as you could at 16? I didn't. You know, I actually I went all the way through to university. I was one of these. Yeah, I went to Brighton University and I love Brighton so much. Yeah, I didn't really apply myself in school and I really wish that I could have, but I just hated it. So I don't know. repeated it. So I don't know, this is why I try to encourage kids to, you know, not just accept themselves, but to accept each other so that it translates and creates a more harmonious environment

that kids can really apply themselves in school. Because there was no way that I was going to be able to, you know, get out of school without, oh my god, I on like there was no way that I was going to be able to apply myself with dealing with what I had to deal with at school especially you know I grew up during the time of section 28 so I wasn't allowed to tell the teachers that I was being homophobically bullied because they couldn't talk about it so um it was a very very difficult time yeah sorry explain to me section 20 I didn't I don't people were not allowed to talk about or teach anything to do with homosexuality in schools it was not allowed it was illegal it blows my mind yeah it was really bad yeah um and then I got I got to sixth form and then I started applying myself

more and I was able to leave there with three Bs. They must have known that you were being bullied. Oh, they all knew, but they couldn't say anything. They couldn't do anything because they couldn't reprimand the other students for doing it because they couldn't actually acknowledge. Or try and educate them. Yeah. And they couldn't say that homophobia is wrong because that is promoting homosexuality.

Oh my. So it was really horrendous. Yeah. But this was in the noughties. This was in the noughties. Yeah. Early noughties. It implies that we were like in the kind of the Victorian times.

This is, it's mad. Yeah. It's pretty nuts. And you look at what was happening in a in a wider sense as well with you know who was in government and in america and who was in government in the uk and the damage that has been done to the queer communities and how a lot of queer people are still dealing with that trauma of you know growing up underneath that legislation and how that's now intertwined in our behaviors and our relationships and it's it's it's a lot to deal with but I think that we're

really in a period of time now where we're unpicking all of these different things and this is why I'm so behind Black Lives Matter because we're picking apart society and saying you know what having statues of slave masters isn't British that doesn't need to be quintessentially British and I feel like a lot of people are saying that taking down those statues is erasing history but we need to understand that we live in a multicultural society and if we want equality then we need to push for a society that includes everybody so um I'm really excited to live in this time really excited I I want to know so um you transitioned when you were 20 was it 24 so I started my transition when I was 24 but I knew that I wanted to transition when I was 18 so there was a period of time when I was in denial, but also understanding that this was going to happen at some point.

But I wasn't ready until I was 24 or 23. I can't really remember. It was like a blurry period of time. Who did you talk to then? Did you talk to, were you able to talk to your parents or your brother? You know what? Me and my parents haven't always

had the relationship that we have now um there was a period I didn't talk to my parents for about a year and a half actually we fell out for a year and a half around the time that I told my mum that I was trans I think because my mum is such a passionate stubborn stubborn woman I think that she just found it very hard to deal with the idea that she didn't know her own child it wasn't the fact that she was transphobic it wasn't the fact because she didn't take me coming out as gay well either I think it's the idea of um not knowing something about the people that you love and And I didn't, of course, understand that at the time. I just thought, oh my God, she's a bigot. I can't believe that.

You know, all of these kind of horrible thoughts that you should never have. But my dad actually brought us back together and we had the worst relationship growing up. My dad is an old school Jamaican macho man and he wanted a lad as a son and he didn't get a son or a lad. So it was very difficult for them to understand me, I think. And I found it very difficult to understand myself. So yeah, my dad actually brought us

back together and I never saw that happening. I never saw him accessing that vulnerable part of himself. And that really came out of him on the other side of him having cancer, because we fell out when he got cancer as well. So we've been through a lot as a family, actually, and it's really brought us closer so um I'm really really thankful actually for adversity I think it's been a real eye-opener to the fact that you know nothing is really a bad situation because there's always a lesson to be learned from it or there's always something more positive on the other side of it it might be hard in that in the meantime but there's always something positive to come out of anything were you speaking to your mum when you were kind of as you said kind of

getting fed to the wolves after um l'oreal yes yes you were speaking it must have been i mean look i it was hard enough watching you i mean you were so bloody calm and brilliant in front of piers morgan on you know good you know i've seen you with him. And I mean, you're brilliant. But I can just imagine as a, as a mother, it must have been quite hard for your mum, right? Yeah, I think it was, I just told her at one point, you need to start reading the news, because I don't think up until that point, my mum didn't realise that the news isn't necessarily always the news. It's, you know, every single newspaper has its own agenda. So once I had educated my mum on how the media works, because I studied media at university, so that actually helped me a lot in understanding what was happening to me. So yeah I it took a long it took a long time for her to understand because

my mum's white my dad's black so my mum hadn't my mum wasn't really privy to a lot of the conversations that I was having about white privilege because my mum's from a working class background so she was like where's my white privilege and understandably and then once I talked to her about you know imagine how hard you're how much harder your life would be if you were black on top of being working class and having those kind of conversations so again it brought us closer it was very much a crash course but we got there and she's always been there for me um throughout this whole period of time we've had ups and downs but now she finds she finds articles that I'm in and sends them to me and says oh this

is a great ride up isn't it yeah I'm really proud that I get to make them proud I wanted to ask we ask everyone what their last supper or desert island meal would be you've got a starter a main a pudding and a drink of choice so i've got an obsession with octopuses oh yeah alive octopuses sorry that i will get to a point um but because they're so intelligent and they don't share dna with any yeah they're they're hyper intelligent beings don't ruin eating octopus hold on a minute come on tell me then come on come on so they're hyper intelligent beings and a lot of them can do things that you know not many other beings can do on this earth like change color or shoot ink out of their bodies and stuff like that that is a good trick that shooting ink yeah i know right

um and they don't share dna with anything else on this planet so technically they are aliens really how do you know all this i'm obsessed with them i like big fan of octopus do you call them octopuses or do you call them octopi? Octopi, darling. I say octopuses because octopi just sounds a bit, doesn't it? You sound like a wanker, don't you? Yeah, I was going to say that, but your mum's present. So yes, I feel guilty eating them. But if it was my last meal, if it was my last supper, then that means I couldn't eat anymore.

And I don't eat them purposely because they're so intelligent. So I would have an octopus as my last meal because so you do love the taste do you have calamari or octopus I would have octopus because calamari tastes different octopus is more meaty it's like much more it's very rubbery no it's not only if it's cooked badly so where have you had really good octopus octop? Where have you had good octopi? Yeah. I think Italy. Okay. I think Italy, I've had good octopus in Italy.

Do you like your octopus stuffed? Mum always gets an innuendo in there or something. Yeah, I mean it. No, but that's what I've seen seen an octopus stuffed with stuff in the middle rice and so you take yeah you take really the tentacle off and you stuff it with rice oh we'll have some tomato or something like that we'll have some of that okay so that's starter and then you braise it you kind of braise it in wine. Barcelona Barcelona I've had good octopus in Barcelona as well. Yeah because they do that as tapas don't they? Yeah. Do you like seafood then? I do like

seafood I was actually going to say lobster for my main. Oh see I don't think I've ever had phenomenal lobster I know I should love it but I feel like it never gives me what I need apart from if it's in a lobster roll. So how would you have your lobster? So this is quite obscene, but I think as it's the end of my life, I would like to have a very old lobster. Like they live quite long, don't they? They can live like... Why would you want an old one? For taste?

Yeah, apparently the older they are, the more tasty they are. And I saw a documentary where they ate a 60 year old lobster and i just thought oh that that would be really really mean but if it's the end of my life and it's a very important meal then we can share the end of days how do they know a lobster is 60 i think it's the tail the longer their tail i think so you get more meat i think you get more meat they're big they're huge i'm having a prince ribbit lobster that's it jessica don't say that you'll have your head chopped 99 years of age in the tower anyway carry on they're absolutely beautiful so yeah I'd have a nice meaty lobster lovely

and like all of like the dipping sauces and stuff like that so the longer you live the bigger your tail yeah there you go yes there's a metaphor in that somewhere what's your what's your pudding my pudding um I'm a chocolate fiend so it would a platter. I would like a whole table full of different chocolates from chocolate ice cream to chocolate fudge sundae. Actually, maybe like a really big chocolate sundae with all different kinds of chocolate in it and multiple spoons for my friends. Oh, they're all there.

They're all there. That's very sweet. You're going to be sick, Munro. It's it's okay i'm gonna die anyway okay yeah it's fine what's your favorite drink what's your drink do you drink wine or do you like cocktails i don't drink wine um i like a margarita because it get tequila gets me so drunk so quickly. And I'm not the kind of person that likes to drink a lot. I don't drink really unless I'm going out or if it's a celebration. So you're not unlike everybody else in lockdown who's been looking at their watch at four o'clock saying,

is it a bit early for a glass of wine? No, I don't. I barely drink. That's when you're reaching for the chocolate, right? Yes, it's when I'm reaching for the chocolate or I drink a lot of tea. So I want to know, what was on the front of your lunchbox? Did you have a superhero?

Probably the Spice Girls. Oh, really? I was obsessed with the Spice Girls. Like Geri Halliwell was my god. Geri Halliwell and Mel B literally were my queens. I like stand the Spice Girls so hard in school. Have you got big hair? My hair is actually quite big.

I won't take it out because it's wet. But like it's down to here. You've got scary Spice hair. I do have scary Spice. We've got the same kind of curl texture as well. I always just look to her because like, I don't think enough people actually give Mel B credit for what she did when there was no representation in pop for mixed race girls or black girls either,

even in like the nineties. So like to be out there rocking natural hair and like, you know, in a mainstream pop outfit, it was just incredible. It was really, somebody put up on their insta stories today of a clip i'm sure you've seen it but of the spice girls on i think it's a dutch tv show and all these people come in with blackface oh yeah no i've seen that before you're kidding i mean this and mel b says this is the 90s you should have got some black people this is and

he went oh no it's traditional and she's challenging them and like I can't imagine how horrendous that must have been also the fact that she was speaking up I can't imagine a black woman speaking up in the 90s she's probably like it when she got surrounded by she probably got told off for saying that to be honest like I wonder but I mean it was it just it kind of blows your mind really does on your Instagram today you have posted a few I'm sure this is a very small number of messages you get a lot when you speak out I thought it was a really powerful post that you did the shit that you get sent is disgusting and it's wild and I'm it must be so exhausting for you it's exhausting but I want people to see it you know yeah I want people to understand the difference in approach from

speaking out you know um we're in a culture at the moment where in a moment in time where more and more people are using their voices but when women were speaking out with me too I don't think that society really understood that when a woman speaks out against sexual harassment or rape she has actually more to lose than the man who's been accused of rape in a lot of the time so when a black person speaks out about racism, it's very, very different to when a white person speaks out about racism. It's almost like that black person will be attacked and the white person will be seen as a hero for speaking out about it. So I just want people to bear that in mind, that everybody that is a person of colour that's speaking out right now, there is a real cost.

And that cost can be on our mental health or it can be on our physical safety or it can be, as we've seen with me in the past, you know, we can lose our jobs. you know we can lose our jobs so um yeah I'm I'm proud that I've got a platform that I can educate people and I just want people to think I'm not you know trying to change people as people you know you can only lead a horse to water but if I can provide case studies for people to understand their behavior and where they fall within society and how they can be part of the change as well because I saw I saw something on the internet the other day and it said it's not black versus white it's everybody versus racists and I think that that is the most powerful thing that I've seen in the in this whole movement that we it's here to bring us all together. I want to know where is the first place you're

going to go and eat once old lockdown's finished where are you longing to be with your friends you know what i just from craving a nando's you can get that now though babe i know but i really just want to sit there i want to sit there but that that was that was that was like that was like my my jokey one but um it sounds really really bougie come on give it to me no boo not no sexy fish god you are retro girl I love their black cod it's good their black cod is so good I just go there for the black cod and the soft shell crab it's fucking good their black cod. It's good. Their black cod is so good. I just go there for the black cod and the soft shell crab. It's fucking good. Their black cod is good.

It's so good. But I'm sure Monroe's got a little story about a crab now because she seems to know about everything under the sea. She's like Ariel. I can't get your fucking Ariel. I don't. I went, I went, no, I just went on a date to Hakkasan and it was like the worst day ever, but the food was amazing.

And if the food was amazing and if the food wasn't there then I would have walked but I stayed because I wasn't paying and the food was great yes girl Mamma you you say you can't sing but I'm very big fan of karaoke and if you do you like karaoke I do but I wouldn't recommend it but no you don't need to sing but what would your song be what do you think defines you oh it's gonna be go on tell me what do you think it's gonna be it's gonna be like an Aretha song or something you think it's gonna be an Aretha Spice Girls oh maybe no an Aretha? Spice Girls. Or maybe, no, you're right, the Spice Girls. Okay, so my go-to for karaoke is either Missy Elliott. Oh, which one?

Get your freak on. Good choice. Or Nicki Minaj, because I'm actually a really good Nicki Minaj impersonator in terms of... Sorry, Miranda, you know what the teaser's going to be now, babes. You've got to fucking do it. I'm not a really good Nicki Minaj impersonator in terms of... Sorry, Miranda, you know what the teaser is going to be now, babes. You've got to fucking do it. I'm not doing it.

Everyone knows you for being an active person, fighting the good fight. Nobody knows your Nicki Minaj impression. You need to give it to us now. I'm sorry. I can't do it. I'm too shy, Jessie. I'm too shy. Performance anxiety.

How did you find out that you could do a Nicki Minaj impression? Well, alcohol and um peer pressure damn we should have pledged you with drinks this is it I'm now longing to know this impression but yeah we you know normally we invite people over to one of our houses and we cook for them oh wow and that's what we would have done for you and I wish we had because you're so lovely I'd love to oh thank you so you met you and been in person can I ask you have you got good table manners I think so my mum told me that manners cost nothing and yeah um I try to live myself live my life by that and you know how you treat people and how you make people feel and um no elbows on the table

and um don't eat until the host is sat down and things like that so I think so and what's the table manner you the bad tip manner that you hate in someone else oh my god I hate when people eat with their mouth open it's the worst thing ever especially if you did that happen on the date at Hakkasan babe um no actually he was I don't like material people materialistic materialistic people um I like nice things but I don't like people that think that they can buy you and he was just very much that kind of guy like um I've got so much money and you know you're lucky to be here and I was like don't make me feel like this so uh enjoy my black cod I just I was well I'm gonna eat the food that you're buying but you'll never see me again um but yeah no i don't like people that eat with

their mouth um open i think it's the visual as well as um the sound um yeah it's just really off-putting for me and also someone's people that like scrape their cutlery on their plate oh yeah that's annoying yeah i don't think anyone's done that one before. I quite, I understand what you mean. It annoys me, Jessie. What are you watching, actually? I want to know what you're watching in lockdown. Oh my God, RuPaul's Drag Race, all stars. Love RuPaul's Drag Race.

I'm obsessed. I'm such a big drag fan. I'm obsessed. I've always been obsessed. I was actually, I actually worked in drag at one point in my life. When? Did you?

Once upon a time. I worked at a um club called Madame Jojo that's famous it's very famous yeah in Soho um so before I well it's at the beginning of my transition um I worked in drag and it wasn't necessarily performing it was just very much like kind of like club hosting and djing I dj'd as well once upon a time um so um that's my community and I know I know quite a few of them in real life and it just makes me really proud to see that drag has come into the mainstream and that people see it for what it is and it's just fun it's just empowering and you know it's got nothing to do necessarily about gender it's it's more about expression and you know that we've all got masculine and feminine inside of us and anybody can do drag anybody can celebrate the different parts of themselves so what was your drag name my drag was my drag name was Monroe Bergdorf and it just stuck and I just kind of carried it on my real name is Eva I wondered

where you got the Monroe Bergdorf from it's my drag name but I just kind of kept it because it stuck why that though particularly well Monroe two people in my friendship group had the same birth name as me and I won't say what my birth name is because nobody needs to know but it was um I was the last to join the friendship group and they were like well you need to change your name because you're the youngest um so we changed it to Monroe because I had you know um Muchia from the Sugar Babes um I had the same piercing back in the day oh like marilyn monroe's beauty spot yeah so it was monroe and i was like well i don't want to be called

monroe so let's change it to monroe and then i went to um new york on holiday with my parents and we walked past bergdorf goodman i thought that yeah and i was like oh that's a fancy shop and i love the name bergdorf so why don't I just be Monroe Bergdorf and say it stuck and it just became like I don't know I just drew power from it it just I don't know whenever I was in drag I just felt like I was my optimum self because I could just be as expressive as expressive as I wanted to be Such a good name. And yeah, it's very gender neutral. It's not necessarily a draggy name, you know, it's not like a pun or anything. And it just kind of stuck and Monroe just became my nickname. My mum calls me Monroe every now and again,

if she's being playful and in a good mood. But Eva is my personal name Eva this is Eva right now without makeup on and at home it's very much like a Lady Gaga and Stephanie situation or a pink and Alicia situation or Lana Del Rey and um what's her name what's her real name Elizabeth I think it's Elizabeth oh it is yeah everyone's got drag names you know. I think it's Elizabeth. Oh, it is. Yeah, everyone's got drag names, you know. Everything's drag. It's just, you know, wherever. It's like your character, isn't it? Yeah, I don't know. Well, I'm Lenny, darling, and I'm really Helena.

Oh, yeah, sorry. Sorry. Yeah, that's your drag name. Always had one. I've been there way before everyone. You're a pioneer of the drag name, this star name. Munro, you have been, well, a delight a delight and it's just it's a pleasure to chat to you i'm so inspired by you and your and your platform and you you educate me every day and i i

i thank you for saying the things that maybe i don't feel that i can articulate well enough and and also yeah educating me day to day so thank you thank you thank you so much for having me I'm so glad that you know there's has been a positive ending to this L'Oreal story I am too and it's totally deserved and I um please keep on fighting the good fight because you're so brilliant at it you're such a positive person I imagine that you make most things very positive out of I try to yeah I think I think it's important I think that you make most things very positive out of everything that you experience. Yeah, I think you are a positive person. I think it's important. I think that, you know, so many people feel bogged down in the bad things that happen to them.

And, you know, you can take that and turn it into something that you draw strength from. And, you know, I look back at the past three years and they've been really, really tough. But I feel really strong because of it. So thank you so much for having me. Well gorgeous absolutely gorgeous oh thank you as are you my darling I love Monroe Bergdorf. I love Eva. Yes, so gentle, so sweet. I think it just shows how the media can portray one

and also someone that speaks their mind and is infuriated and impassioned. You know, you see her up against Piers Morgan you see her coming you know challenging people every day and she wouldn't bloody give me a Nicki Minaj impression because she was like oh god I can't do it I love Monroe yeah very serene very dignified it's been such a exhausting week for her I think well years for. I think I first came across the term white privilege through Munro speaking so openly about it three years ago. And as she said, when she was fed to the wolves, you know, and attacked left, right and centre for speaking her mind. for speaking her mind. And, you know, you see where we are now three years on and there's no bitterness there.

There's no like, I told you, there's like, I'm so glad that we're moving forward. She's inspiring and excellent. But that is a true activist, someone who makes a positive out of negatives and can move things forward because that's what her raison d'etre is, to move things forward and improve things.

So you don't, that's why, like Nelson Mandela, you're not bitter if you can make a difference and change things. So her whole raison d'etre is to promote change. And you think about her upbringing and her journey to get where she is now, and it hasn't been easy at all. And, you know, she's experienced bullying from such a young age. Then she experiences it in this very public way. Yet she never gives up. I'm just, yeah, inspired. Well, thank you, Mumro, for a wonderful chat.

And thank you, Mum, for telling everyone that your drag name is Lenny. I want to know, we need to get a surname. Lenny Darling, everyone that your drag name is lenny i want to know we need to get a surname lenny darling is that your is that your drag name i don't know answers on a postcard everyone email into table manners uh we all needed we all need it and um i hope everyone is okay i have something that if i could ask the listeners of table manners i put it up on my instagram my jesse where instagram and it's just if you could spare a minute to sign and share this I could ask the listeners of Table Manners, I put it up on my Instagram, my Jessie Ware Instagram. And it's just, if you could spare a minute to sign and share this petition for Nur Cash and Carry.

It's a family run food supplier that's facing eviction during the pandemic. They have some horrendous landlords that have decided to hike up the prices and they're getting pushed out. They've been there for like over 20 years. They are so important. They are 20 years. They are so important. They are Brixton.

They are Brixton, South London. They serve so many communities, Caribbean, West African, Middle Eastern families really rely on this cash and curry, this brilliant shop to access like their food, heritage food. So I would just ask everyone to maybe read up on it if they want to or sign the petition it's just unfair that this brilliant important shop that has been part of brixton's

history and food culture before long before all the gentrification was happening um they've been there and they've served the community for so long i just love everyone to maybe have a moment to read about it and sign the petition because it just seems absolutely disgusting that the this shitbag landlord is hiking up the rents especially during a bloody pandemic so there's an Instagram called save no and it's um n-o-u-r or you can just find it on my Instagram or the Instagram save underscore no um mum's going to eat I'm gonna go and have another massive glass of wine and I'm gonna come and give you a hug now so what you're allowed to hug me yeah oh mum can't wait thank you everyone for listening oh by the way if you didn't know I've

got an album coming out quite soon but you've probably heard it on all the adverts well 26th of June yeah it's changed it's moved uh back a week it's 26th of june what's your pleasure fabulous darling it is very good i have to say imagine if all of you that listen to this bought my record i'd actually my label wouldn't know what hit them it would actually i mean it would be record breaking for me um You don't have to buy it. But you know what? We do give you a free podcast every fucking week. So just think about that.

How many hours of pleasure you have had via these dulcet tones of Lenny and Jessie Ware. Please, can you just cough up? I'll make you all the cake. Please buy it. Or just stream it, Lois. Just put it on repeat on Spotify. Do what you want. Right, I'm going to bed.

The music you've heard on Table Manners is by Peter Duffy and Pete Fraser. Table Manners is produced by Alice Williams.