Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S9 Ep 27: Alanis Morissette

Episode Date: August 5, 2020

Isn't it ironic having a zoom date with Alanis Morrisette? No - but that doesn't matter!!! This was a moment for us. Mum & I are both HUGE fans of this international goddess so it was an honour and delight to have her on the podcast.Born in Canada, raised in LA & now living in San Francisco – Alanis tells us about her upbringing, being a twin, her family life and her journey to success. She loves a bit of broth, grew up eating her mother’s Hungarian goulash & can’t remember what her wedding food was! We talk feminism, 'unschooling' and swearing along with so many other things.Alanis is currently celebrating 25 years of her seminal album Jagged Little Pill. Whilst mum managed to avoid singing on this one, she did try and find out who ‘You Oughta Know’ was about and ALMOST got an answer! What a legend. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

mum i'm slightly nervous about this guest why because she's like an international no eve barlow a gorgeous friend of mine i did an interview with her in the guardian last week and she called her an international treasure and i think she's right yeah she was a very important voice to many young women and women and probably men and a really refreshing voice and I mean I was what how old was I when Jagged Little Pearl came out? You were 11. But I sung those I mean I was singing Wine Dine 69 me um when I was 10 and didn't know what I was talking about. Does he go down on you in the cinema? Yeah I didn't know what I was talking about. Does he go down on you in the cinema? Yeah, I didn't know what I was singing about. Is that my fault, Jessie? No, did you buy me the record?

Yeah, I used to play it all the time. I just remember knowing all the words and definitely didn't know about some of the explicitness on it, but they felt great to sing. And then you look at her now. Yeah, rousing. Kind of, you know, post Me Too movement and the same shit is happening, basically. So, but yeah, we're here to talk to the international superstar.

Fantabulous. Fantabulous, Alanis Morissette, who has a new record out, Such Pretty Forks in the Road. I think it's her ninth studio album. Oh, you've got a few to catch up Jess. I know Jesus I feel pitiful with my four. Anyway how are you mum? I feel pretty tired actually. I'm ready for my holly bobs. I'm ready for a holiday too. I want to switch off. I want to get rid of these devices. I want to look at a book. I want to hold a book in my hand. Yeah me too. I tell you what I'm going to be doing in September.

I have two apple trees in my garden. I have a damsel tree and a plum tree. So basically, every guest is going to get a chutney or a jam. A fruit. Or a pie. That is what you're getting. If you're coming on Table Manners, you will be getting something apple-y. How exciting. I know're like there's lots i've heard about you can rent a cherry tree so my

lovely neighbor over the road terry we were chatting on the porch and her lovely friend turned up with a massive bag of cherries and it's because she rents a cherry tree and you can go and pick them and you get kilos upon kilos why haven't we done that how nice is that you can go for the cherry blossom and then you go for the cherry picking and I forgive me gardeners um harvesters she said you can get them twice but I don't know whether that meant the blossom bit and then the cherries or you get cherries twice a year but I just just thought, what a lovely present to do, that get somebody to have a cherry tree that they go to and collect all their cherries.

Cherries are the best thing in the world. They're delicious at the moment. And so I'm thinking about giving that or asking for a present. But you'd end up with like Kirsch, wouldn't you? You're going to have to wait a year though, darling. Yeah. You could get one of those, what are those big things, those big urns, and you put fruit in and it gradually turns into liquor.

Rombol goffs or something. My God, I could be making moonshine in the garage. Yeah. Oh, yes, Sam, I'm going to the garage to work on the assault bike. No, it's prohibition in there. I'm making old fashions and the gronies and don't worry about it. Cherry Martinez. Ooh.

Who thought of that? Come on. Oh, I'm a bit perked up now, having seen your beautiful face and anticipating Miss Alanis Morissette. Hello. Hi. How are you? What's been going on? Quarantining, serving, eating. You've got the biggest smoothie I've ever seen in my life. This is actually not the smallest mason jar that I use. There's one that's bigger. What's in it? Strawberries, bananas and oat milk. Delicious.

It is actually. Where are you? Are you in San Francisco? I'm just outside of it. Yeah. Oh, I thought you lived in Canada. My soul does. Then I was in Los Angeles for 25 years. And then now we just moved up about a year and a half ago to outside of the Bay Area. Is it very big little lies out there? Yes, it is. It's exactly that. A lot of murder. Actually, I shouldn't joke about that. So, yeah, it's pretty, you know what it is here? It's quiet.

Oh, nice. Los Angeles is like, you know, there's a lot going on in that city. And not to say there's not a lot going on here, but it's a little less wild. Where are you? I'm in South London. And mum is in another part of south london and um this is a really huge deal for us so thank you so much oh thanks for having me we've been so excited because we're such big fans and because i realize mum is going to sing for you no i'm joking no i'm No I'm not I wanted to but I'm not I'm going to refrain

We might get you to sing later but I realised that I played your album to Jessie when she was 11 and she knows all the words to it and because she used to mimic and used to practice singing all the time

she sang all your words probably shouldn't have known all your words that says something there mom what kind of a mother no but they felt good on the tip of your tongue you know yeah it felt good yes there's a benign there's a benign version of swearing you know and um my son and i have this agreement that if someone in the room is offended by swearing that we refrain but if no one's offended by it we let it rip so that's my kind of parenting mom of course it is okay hilarious you too how do you know if somebody's going to be offended by the swearing you ask oh oh maybe i need to do that you do the little announcement like anyone in the room offended by swearing. And inevitably someone will say, yeah, I don't like swearing.

And then my son will not. How old is your son? He's two months old. It's very advanced. No, he's nine years old. Is he your oldest or your youngest? Oldest. Alanis, you taught me so many things but this one could be

the prize one to be honest because I'm the biggest swearer in the world yeah good we've had many a review on our podcast complaining about the swearing and so maybe I need to do I think yeah and I think they've had to put an explicit thing before our thing now that's that's an invitation at this point yeah so I'm like listen we kind of said it was going to be there but this is an interesting point that maybe i do need to do the alanis way of being like okay if you don't like swearing don't listen to this is anyone offended well fuck off no you know who else has a really you know know who has a great, I don't know, explanation history of swear words is a gentleman named Vsauce. Just check him out.

Come on, then. We watched it a hundred times. Vsauce. Vsauce. I think the title of the clip is called The Etymology or The History of Swearing or something. And he really lays it out to the point where it just makes swearing kind of a meh. Not a big deal. so my son and I've watched that a hundred times oh man you and I recommend it you're my kind of parent I love you

what else do you do what what entertainment are you doing oh like do your kids do you do you get around the guitar and sing are your kids musical are you doing things that I should learn about with finger painting I need to know something else that you're doing. The only thing I ever do is follow their eyeballs. So I'll be, you know, I'll be holding one of them and I'm invested maybe in them looking at these special new flowers that have bloomed and they're not interested at all and they want to look over there.

So I just sort of follow the eyeballs and then I'm okay. I mean, that's the number one thing I would say. Follow the eyes. Okay, I'm okay. I mean, that's, that's the number one thing I would say. Follow the eyes. Okay. I like that. Okay. Follow the eyeballs and ask if there's, should be squaring.

Okay. This is amazing. Alanis. Yes. I love this and I love you. And I already know that this is going to be fantastic. My friend, Eve Barlow interviewed you for the,

the Guardian recently and it came out and she said, and she's a good friend of mine. And I said, Oh, we've got Alanis on our podcast. And she said, I felt high after speaking to her you put her in the best mood she said it honestly was so wonderful that's so great and um yeah I mean you seem to have that effect on everyone it's what I slip in the drink just before we do our interviews no one knows about it it's really sparkly.

Growing up in Canada what was kind of life like around the dinner table in your household? Very lively, a lot of comedy, a little philosophy, obviously food, but interestingly enough food wasn't the focal point. It was more the fact that we were all in one place because we were all so busy in our own individual worlds that for us to actually all be sitting. How many? It was five of us. Five kids? No, twin brother and an older brother, so three kids and mom and dad.

You're a twin? I'm a twin. 12 minutes younger. Oh, wow. Okay, so, and you and your brother, like, were you squabbling a lot? I mean, just like, oh, are you bestest of friends? Yeah, in utero, we just were like, fisticuffs. Who came out first?

He came out 12 minutes first, and I like to say that he held the door very chivalrous out of the gate. So sweet. We didn't squabble. I mean, we have squabbled. We're more that kind of telepathic, finish each other's sentences kind of twins. And I have a general sense of what's up with him, even though I haven't checked in once in a while and vice versa. But, you know, we've been through our moments. We're that close.

I think it's inevitable that we'll step on each other's toes. And we have. And you said you talked about philosophy. My dad would initiate some sort of talk about anything that was going on, like any kind of social commentary we could bandy about. So whether it be what was happening in politics or pop culture, he was totally into. My family is very much into

sports and so there was always something to discuss and you know 60 of the time it would lead to some family fight just of course you know so so what were you eating what was i eating what's a really memorable dish that your parents cook well okay so my mom is hungarian oh is she and postpartum i'm'm all about cabbage and any... So people laugh. They're like, you're so Hungarian after you give birth. So my mom would make chicken paprikash and goulash and... What do you call it?

Brothy, stewy yumminess and potato. It's just very European. And then when we went to Hungary together, I did a show there. And I invited my mom and my aunt. and they took us to all the restaurants and they would do radishes like just thinly sliced radishes with salt and that would be one of the starters so yeah so anything like crunchy slightly sour and then pungent too is good but see I'm just talking about postpartum now I'm just talking about what I'm craving right now I'd love some soup so so how old is your youngest my youngest is 11

months old almost a year crikey and how long how long are we postpartum for I've got two and I'm wondering whether I I think first of all postpartum is forever. I remember once I was really, really having major anxiety. So I had postpartum depression after the first and second, and then postpartum, mostly anxiety after winter, my son, who's 11 months. And oh my gosh, I just forgot what I was going to say. I'm a living example, a walking example of what happened. Yes, your frontal cortex disappears. And it sucks because I usually rely on it. So basically, I'm not myself for two years. You asked how long postpartum was. I think the least amount of time it is is two years, probably more if it's untreated.

Because I remember when I didn't treat it, I called a doctor. I said, does it get easier? Like if I white knuckle through this and soldier through it, can I just grind way, way through it, which is how I did a lot of things in my life? And she said, no, it's going to get worse, actually. So you might want to address it. So then I did. And instantly, I felt much more like myself. But even medicated, which I'm a big fan of it if you need it. if you need it. You know, I'm still just not myself, but it's worth it because I look at my kids and I think there's going to be a day where I won't remember this, won't remember my state. So it was made worth it, but it's no joke. It's hard to explain it unless someone's been through it too. It's hard to put into words. Do you still have postpartum anxiety with kind of after the birth of winter? Yes, especially because the timing was such that the the lockdown and keeping everyone safe yeah all happened at the same time so i think collectively as a planet we were all in fight flight freeze you can't really tend and befriend

a pandemic or can you fight flight freeze tend and befriend and then collapse like you know so i think a lot of us are in the freeze mode they what we were and now some of us are kind of thawing out and getting into the beautiful protests and the and some of the anger and some of the how do we want our new normal to look you know do we want we don't want to go back to how it was but what do we want what's important to us what is our value system now you know so it's fortuitous if I can even say that that it's giving us this opportunity to actually think about you know and then the other part is just traumatic and unusual we're social creatures we need each other and we don't have each other

as much right now I mean FaceTime and Zoom and all these incredible technological ways are great. What is the situation at the moment? You're still locked down. Or can you go to social gatherings? Or you have to wear masks all the time. I know that. Masks, social distancing, and ideally just sitting it out, to be perfectly honest, as best as you can. I mean, some people's environments are not such that they wanted to stay home all the time. And I understand needing to get out, but it's really about masks and as best as possible,

social distancing and being a lovely little dose of paranoia, which I don't think is hard because I think a lot of us are just feeling paranoid right now. So your children won't go back to school in August? We were homeschooling them anyway. I've been unschooling for nine years with Ever, and we'll do that with our kids too. So in that sense, it was normal, except for the fact that with unschooling, we were going to be on tour, and that's where they would learn. One of my children might be playing drums with Victor, who I play drums with, and another one is in the other room doing somersaults, and the other one's sleeping in the hotel.

So there'd be a lot of sort of stimulation for them there but there seems to be plenty here too but my husband and I god bless us are trying to be their mates and their playmates which is great except it's physically exhausting because I'm not four but also you are promoting a record right that oh yes that lovely detail. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I just brought one out a few weeks ago. And like, you know, it's that thing of, I mean, I wanted to know with the postpartum anxiety is almost having a focus with the record helpful in that situation. Yes. Or does it all, I mean, because I mean, this is what your ninth studio record I don't even know

yes okay it's you've done a lot right so yeah so so like for you does this feel does it feel stressful promoting the record or is it almost like a nice escape a reprieve yeah it's it's it's a bit of a reprieve from from the archetype mom hat or, I mean, there's so many roles that any modern mom plays. There's about 25 of them out of the gate, and then there's always extras per case. So my only concern on the larger scale is, okay, so the feminist movement has allowed it to be such that we are doing masculine and feminine things. But it's almost like we're over-rolled now. I have 42 roles, and I, you know, back in the day, maybe it was oppressive and ridiculous,

and of course it had to change. But maybe they only had four roles. And not to say it was easier then, because it wasn't. Then meaning, what, 1920s or whatever. But right now, just as things have evolved and there's more empowerment, it just feels like we're doing as moms there's this load that we that that is not often talked about you

know that we're that we're multitasking to a degree now that it's almost untenable you know we're just at that edge I hear you on that one and unfortunately for my kids i feel like they are the one like i mean i how old are they well so i've got a nearly four year old and a 16 month old so oh my god and that they're amazing yeah it's but the thing is and i really felt like i wanted to prove a point with my it was so ludicrous but um my daughter what's the point well the, the point, I don't freaking know, but like that I could do everything to this kind of, to this industry. And I nearly ran myself to the ground

with trying to tour with her, trying to keep finances right, which was, it was, I mean, it was a big old shit show. That's its own full-time. Yeah. And like my husband is incredibly supportive and he accepts that kind of, I have to take this kind of more it sounds really i don't know like stereotypical yes i absolutely and he's completely cool about that but then you have that same in a turmoil i mean i was i was speaking to my friend today who has chosen to not work and she was saying she felt

the guilt in another way so we're all feeling bloody guilty the whole freaking time yeah yeah the guilt the guilt is this little bedfellow along the journey but yeah it's like it's like i'm attempting whenever i feel that overwhelming sense of guilt that somehow i'm failing everything right because because there's too much there's not enough bandwidth to do all the things that we love and prioritize so on some level Matt just straight-up math I feel like I'm failing everybody but you know what Dan Siegel whom I respect so much met him at UCLA he's been a mentor friend and he basically said if parents are doing upwards of about 60% of a quote-unquote good enough

job they're killing it good enough killing it. And I was shocked because I thought, you know, my number's like, if I'm not doing 97%, I'm a failure. So 60 was a revelation. I was like, 60? I can do 60% in my sleep. This is great news. So instead of my constantly feeling like I'm failing, I'm looking for ways to see how each area is actually getting plenty of my bandwidth and my attention and my love. And that it's in here that says there's some other standard by which I need to measure everything.

And it's just not possible. So I'm going to have to fail in some areas and, you know, hopefully kick ass while I'm doing that. So where are your children at the moment? Are they playing in the garden? I keep them locked. They're locked in a cupboard. Yeah, absolutely. Because I just find that they're happier that way. No, they're right now, one is probably at the pool, swimming, swimming. My son, my 11 month old is napping. I just nurseded him and my oldest son is making his 95th animated show episode he's been making this show during during lockdown he's oh wow yeah yeah he loves it he's

good at it this is blowing my mind that you're schooling them like that do you have teachers that come in or you just doing that as well because i'm complaining about being like woe is me but i could potentially send my children to nursery if I, well, if lockdown wasn't happening, you know what I mean? But you, you're teaching them as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A curriculum of sorts, or is it less of a curriculum? It's less of a curriculum. And I think a lot of parents right now, understandably, have reached out to me saying, okay, so we thought your unschooling thing was something we'd never even have to entertain, but tell us how to do it because we're basically doing it now.

And the first thing I would want to say to anybody is don't worry your children are curious they're gonna want to learn they're gonna want to know where this fabric came from or you know there's new photos of Mars how does water come out of a tap faucet you know just research with them and say 50% of the time just say I don't know let's find out you know and just follow the little rabbit holes that are created by their own curiosity and you can't go wrong and we loosely reference Howard Gardner's multiple intelligence theory just so you know that that voice in the back of my head that says am I actually educating them appropriately you know I just reference that so it's musical

intelligence linguistic language intelligence math logic um intrapersonal one the ability to go within and actually identify what you're feeling you know some social life skills stuff too and i mean even just teaching them or hopefully modeling for them how to apologize that taking responsibility is actually kind of exciting and super relaxing just letting them know how i'll say things to them like hey you might get away with slapping my butt in this living room but responsibility is actually kind of exciting and super relaxing. Just letting them know how, I'll say things to them like, hey, you might get away with slapping my butt in this living room, but if you did that out in the world, you'd go to jail. And then they go, okay, I won't do that. Just letting them know like, this is how it works here in this house. And here's what would happen

if you tried doing that lining up for a falafel. Will they continue to be unschooled for their whole kind of chart? I mean, do you ever want to put them into a institution at all? Or are you very anti it? I'm not. I'm neutral. So if, you know, the running joke is,

I'm like, okay, if you want to go to college, I'll support that. So if they ever want, if any of them turned to me and said, I really want to go to school now, they'd be going to school whenever they want were you schooled by your parents um no I mean yes every day they're both teachers so yeah I'd come home from school and then then that would begin but I loved it right I mean the kind of you know my dad was was a principal and a teacher up until about two years ago and my mom's taught forever so what did they

think about your choice to unschool them it made sense to them it just seemed really daunting I think they were just it's a commitment you know a lot of people I know are totally up for the idea of it but understandably they don't have the bandwidth I don't have the bandwidth I'm you know doing all my work at three in the morning. But I mean, I'm already seeing it pay off, for lack of a better term. I'm already seeing them. Their curiosity is built. And, you know, they know that they can, if they have an idea, they can make it manifest.

All this stuff. It's pretty exciting to watch them do their thing. The key for me is how do us as parents not lose our minds while, while we're giving and giving and giving. And so for me, it's the tantamount to really keep the eye on the, how do we compensate for all that expenditure? You know, cause it feels like so much energy is going out. I'm giving, I'm looking, I'm discerning, I'm CEOing, I'm buy, sell, merge, you know, and you've mentioned finances a second ago, Jesse, like that's a full-time job. And then our bodies are female bodies in theory. So all of a sudden we're using all these faculties that have stereotypically, like you said, been used, you know, in a heterosexual relationship

by the man that brings home the bacon, you know? So we're doing all of these things and the role, it sounds like in your case, Jesse, definitely in mine, our husbands play a different kind of role of providing a currency that is not stereotypical. So whereas the currency might be literal money in the past, now it's, hey, you know what, I'm going to go record a song for Jimmy Fallon and I really need you to hang out and just make sure that everything's okay and the couple people that are social distancing that they're fed and so he's like my partner in crime I mean there's no way I could do this without him but he's not doing the conventional you know no neither am I I've never been able to do the conventional and I tried I tried dating people where I you know where I played the the more more yin beta character and it lasted all of about a week before I imploded. I tried. Do you have time to cook? No. No. I'm crestfallen when

this is even brought up because I really love cooking, but I don't. So cooks no one eats we don't cook the 11 months old just made her that smoothie mom yeah yeah get to work mom's hungry um we have a little bit of a village here so uh we have two or three people who are actually four people who are incredible chef cook women so on any any given day, we'll just be like, hey, you want to make dumplings today? Because I'm a foodie. So I need I love variety. I love international anything, you know, if they're going to risk fusing or hybridizing, you know, I'm all about it. So I can do very basic things.

If my children were hungry, and we were alone on an island and there happened to be a kitchen on that island, I could take care of them for life. But I don't cook. What's your best dish? If you had to. If I had to, it would be my soups. I'm kind of obsessed with soups. Anything, broth, 100 vegetables, proteins if people eat them. Just like a party soups, the super dense. And when you put the ladle in, it's like you're good for a few hours. And then I'm a sauce person. So if everything's like rice, protein, vegetables, and then 600 sauces, that really speaks to the part of me that wants variety and newness but then there's another part that wants consistency

and predictability so i feel like sauces take care of that i need to know about this village though like is it like are you on like a commune like a kibbutz kind of it sounds like a kind of it sounds amazing but i want to know when i say village i mean it's her household it's a household the household yeah okay the team of people but you know, I mean, back in the day in villages, there were 17 grandmothers, 16 grandfathers. I remember being in Fiji once, and I was walking down the street, and these two boys, nine-year-old boys, adorable, like arm in arm, snuggling each other, walking down the road.

And I turned to them, and I said, where are your grandparents? And their response was precious. They just said, they just moved their fingers, like, they're everywhere. Don't bother us, you know, and their response was precious. They just said, they just moved their fingers like they're everywhere. Don't bother us, you know, like, and so the sense these kids had on that street was that there were family members everywhere, which is what the village is. And then our modern, so-called modern times, and it's really come to the fore right now with us in lockdown world is we're all in little pods you know and so my dream was always that revolving door where aunties are coming over uncles are

coming over they're they're kidnapping the kids to go for some adventure canoeing and then they come home and we cook and i'm very very communal i mean i live for relationships i also think there's an art to living communally, little, little basic things. Like if you buy something you want to eat and you want to make sure no one eats it, you have to put a post-it note on it that says, touch this and you're going down. You know, little, lots of post-it notes in the fridge of don't touch this or, um, but there's an art to it. My husband actually lived on a commune till he was nine. How was that for him? Well, he absolutely loved it. He was surrounded by really powerful, strong women.

And I think that was really helpful for his mom. And you. And he had a really positive experience. Well, he's absolutely, he's like the most incredible father. And I wonder whether it's because he's been surrounded. I mean, his dad is great too. But yes, I wonder whether that has influenced him yeah and the energy and the comfortableness of being with women so you know and feeling like he can

take that less of a yeah whatever you know stereotypical role yeah and also there's less pressure because there's a lot of pressure on men to conform to some way of being as a man which is so limited and gross um but yeah, there's, I like to category things. But one category I have in my head is there's a man to sort of dissolve the patriarchy thing. No pressure, just a little do it in like a minute or two. So there's the man who hates the feminine, hates women and will not change. We know that. Then the second type is the man who was taught patriarchy, taught hatred, taught disrespect, but goes to therapy, does couples work maybe in a hetero relationship or is highly influenced by some women in their lives, and they can shift

their behavior. Then there's the kind of man who was born into a family like you were describing, your husband, and definitely my husband too, where mom was already doing sort of non-stereotypical stuff and she was you know in in my case anyway she was the primary breadwinner so there was nothing unusual about soul i'm marrying me and and that being the role because that was normal to him so those are the three types and i and i used to date all three types. And then at one point I just said, I'm so tired of the idea of me clipping my wings to make a romantic relationship work. So I just said, I'll go for the third type. The third type has a mom or a community where women were celebrated. And it's not weird for them to not clip my wings.

How about that? And that's why I'm married. How did you meet? I had a ceremony at my house and a couple of really close friends were coming. It was just going to be a quiet experience. And then my friend said, can I bring my friend Solai? And I was, I was, and am very private in certain ways. So I said he cool and that's kind of code for is he gonna trip out is he gonna take photos of my home am I gonna be you know and they said no no he's so cool so doorbell rang and I opened the door and then I saw a soul eye and I thought oh I am feeling some things I am feeling some things and so then we had the ceremony and his friend was interested in me

but I had said no to any future for us so it was just kind of awkward we really like each other but are we supposed to be friends are we supposed to mentor each other in some way I have no idea what form this should take then we did a hike and we made out at the top of the hill or when you finished at the top it was very very cinematic you were euphoric you'd reach the top you had to have a snore yes and we snogged as you say and then I was doing a marathon two days later and I was terrified that I was going to roll my ankle because I'm an ankle roller it's a of person. And so he saw that look on my face at the top of like, God, I'm doing a marathon in two days. So he just said, get on my back. And it was getting dark. I had a little flashlight. So I was holding the flashlight and he put me on his back and

carried me all the way down the hill or the mountain really. And I remember thinking he's protecting my ankle on our first date. like this oh my god mum all mum and I would want in life is somebody to hike me down the hill carry me up for a whole fucking hill the whole canyon carry me down everything how about that that's amazing and do you remember oh wow and then what was that it he came to I mean that that was the beginning of everything yeah for you too yep and he did a show he an artist. So he had been inviting me to see him perform. And I I don't know why I was I wasn't even purposefully playing hard to get, but I just kept saying no. And then I mean, because sometimes purposely I would in the past, I admit.

But this time I wasn't. And then I eventually said yes. And he was just so chivalrous. But this time I wasn't. And then I eventually said yes. And he was just so chivalrous. And he jumped on stage and freestyled for 20 minutes. And I saw these women going up to him and kind of googly eyed. And I had this rush of like, stay away from my man. I was like, he's not your man, first of all. And interesting that you're a little jealous.

So that was a cute sign that I was interested. Oh, wow. And you got married we did we got married pretty quick yep I love being married what was the food what was oh yeah at the wedding um oh my gosh where did you get married first of all at our house at your house we got married in in the backyard it was so great um food you know when I'm really nervous or I barely eat and I know that's not really a foodie thing but it's a when I'm nervous I can't really I'm either focusing on my food or I'm focusing on what's going on I can't really do both

Lord knows I can eat mindlessly I could do it like anybody but but I don't want to when I'm eating it's like having a relationship with what's in front of me and we're having a dialogue while I'm stuffing it in my face so to answer your question about what the food was at the wedding I don't even remember it was delicious though everyone loved it I didn't eat any of it but everyone was so happy I was married which was big for me what did I have for lunch marriage that your mom and dad were happy my parents were blissed out good it was a fun dance floor I'll tell you what was your first dance are we allowed to know or would you like to keep it private oh I have I I'll tell you it was um Orange

Sky by Alexi Murdoch I don't think I know that it's long too so you can dance forever oh my god I love Orange Sky I'm gonna I'm gonna go and have a little dance with my husband after this oh yeah so I mean I'm interested if the nerves take um so much kind of it can dictate whether you can eat or not regarding like performances I mean you are an accomplished performer an artist do you still get nervous do you is food quite important on tour for you or does it kind of like is it get in the way of a performance for you um yeah I still get nervous all the time if we're in some sort of rhythm where we're doing a tour or we're on a tour and we're doing plenty of shows in a row then I just kind of get excited rather than nervous but

if I haven't done a show in a long time, fully nervous, but that's okay. The first 12 minutes, I'm a bit of a bag of nerves. And then it segues into this really warm physical, emotional experience. Um, but food, I mean, food is everything to me. And even though there will be times where I don't feel like eating. And I think some of that is some of that is the medication, um, because I usually have a robust appetite. Nutrients. So people ask, are you vegan? Are you carnivorous? What are you?

And I answer that I'm a nutritarian. I live for nutrients. I've never heard this one. Hold on a minute. Tell me, explain what is it. Nutritarian for me just means if it's teeming with nutrients and minerals and phytochemicals and all of that, and it's delicious. It has to be delicious.

It can't just be nutritious. That gross um so both the bothness so if i'm eating something that might be delicious but i know it has no nutrients in it that's kind of how we qualify it in the house so ever onyx will just hold something up and they'll say are there any nutrients in this mom and i'll look at it i'll go nope okay they'll still eat it but you know they just want to know what's in it. That's going to help the body basically. So it takes really interesting because no, it's really interesting because my daughter, we're trying to encourage her. I mean, obviously she just wants chicken nuggets and beige food as a lot of, well, not all four year olds, but like, you know, she's definitely a lot a lot of

them do like that and so we tried we're trying to you know we're trying our hardest we kind of gave up for a bit and now we're trying to reintroduce the stuff that she was eating when she was a bloody baby and didn't realize what it was and um and and did it work or no well this thing about them we don't say is it nutritious but like it's interesting because we say this will make you strong or this will make you nice yeah be able to um you know play harder or yeah or run faster or you know and she definitely feels like she's kind of she's engaging more with that and so she'll be like this will make me really run fast and i'm like yes it will but i mean you know also yeah but it's it's interesting well if

you told her to make her hair long and straight and blonde like Elsa's then she well I've tried that one that's the next white lie I know I know I know no you know we do when when you know they're called it's called picky eater but I don't even really believe that I think it's particular eater so um what I used to do is I do taste tests. So we'd blindfold them. And I put about 14 or so little pieces of food in a row, and then do the taste test. And inevitably, there'd be maybe one thing that would get them excited and that I make a plate of that, you know, so because what you know, it's, it's so hard, as you probably know, I don't need to tell any parent this to make a full plate of something and then they look at it and

they go no way I know you know we're not we're not gonna force them to eat it and Lord knows I've been forced to eat food and it doesn't doesn't turn out well but um you know and I remember dr. Joel Furman at one point I I said how do you get your children's before I mean when ever was really tiny and I asked him I said how do you feed your kids nutritious food? You know, I was pretty new to the whole story. He goes, you know, they'll get hungry. That was his response. It's such a great response. They'll get hungry. And then when you offer them the plate of strawberries, they'll be really happy that they have the strawberries. Like, okay. And at the same time, you know, we have a little bit of a gray area,

I don't want them to feel super deprived, because that starts an eating disorder, right? So if I get too freaked out about what they're eating, it's going, that's going to project energetically onto them. And then they're going to feel weird around food. And, you know, I'm recovered, I'm recovering eating disorder person. So I have a general sense of things to say and things not to say around food. And I fail all the time. But basically, I know the words not to say to my daughter to not trigger a future eating disorder or whatever. There's certain things not to say or certain things to say. Yeah.

And the other thing, too, is at some point when they get older, they're going to have their own appetite and their own style with food. At some point when they get older, they're going to have their own appetite and their own style with food. So for now, I'm just making sure that they have enough nutrients to be able to keep running around to the degree they do. I can't even believe the amount of energy. I'm just like, where does it come from? We'll run them around ragged all day on a beach or on a track even. I'll just be like, run, run, run. And they still don't want to go to sleep.

No, it's even worse. My husband and I will smugly smile at each other like, they're going to bed early tonight. Oh yeah, we're going to get some time together. Cut to one in the morning, they're like, running around even more. So none of it works. I wanted to know, I mean, we ask every person this question but a desert island meal if you had it was going to be your dream meal starter main dessert and drink of choice what would be your

dream meal I believe that broth would be in there somewhere yeah brought um bone broth for me is like a savior for the no appetite postpartum. They have vegan ones too. Okay, so desert island. I would definitely want something European. I would want probably some German meats, Hungarian meats. Like salami? Bratwurst?

Schnitzel. Oh, yeah, okay, fine, got it, got it. Okay, so then on the side, anything garlicky, so garlic, spinach, steamed, blah blah blah. Anything green steamed. And then desserts? No chips, no french fries. I'll do french fries. No, you don't have to.

I like truffle fries. Oh, everyone likes fries no you don't like i like truffle truffle oh everyone likes you don't have to have them said no one ever you don't have to have the french fries oh i'll have them um so one thing we did was make we do the yam fries cut them up drizzle truffle oil and then crack um himalayan black salt onto it himalayan black salt onto it. Himalayan black salt? I've only had the pink salt. I've only got the rose pink salt. So, sorry, it's Hawaiian black salt. Not... Oh. It's Hawaiian black salt.

Okay. Oh, amazing. Yeah, it's really delicious. And then maybe you make a dip. It's all about the sauces. Yeah. Maybe some sort of special dip. And then dessert-wise,

ooh, I think straight up ice cream or sorbet or something. Yeah, I love ice cream. And then I've been obsessed with, I think straight-up ice cream or sorbet or something. Yeah, I love ice cream. And then I've been obsessed with the, you know, umami, pungent, sweet. Like, I've been, I like going down the rabbit hole of all the words you can use to describe taste. There's something like the top seven. But umami, big fan, too.

Let's throw some sort of umami something in there. Anything with a dip. Al dip alarmist do you drink i do and i sing about it what's your what's your drink um i love tequila i've written a song called on the tequila oh yeah um and um rose like a snobby little Californian. You're in the right spot for that, right? Yes, right by Sonoma. And Red Wine is a nice, over some Italian something-something. Alanis, can I just ask you, you know when you wrote all those Isn't It Ironic and all of those songs, was that about a person?

That particular song was the first song that I wrote with Glenn Ballard for the record so he and I were still writing lyrics together and just sort of very haphazardly kind of trying to entertain each other but not really thinking it was going to be about anyone and it was the song after that where I started to write hyper autobiographically and I just took over the the lyric part and we kept writing the music together um and the songs became became really fast fast to be written who is the bad who's the bad boy you ought to know is about oh mummy that's why we've got her she asked the hard question oh you're doing the the good the good cop cop thing right now. That's how you get them.

It's so rousing. And, you know, every woman that's been wronged feels like they want to tell that person when they've been wronged that you ought to know. is that for me as a Canadian first of all I'm a bit of an imploder so I'll sublimate and everything goes into my unconscious and then when I sit down in a studio it all comes rushing out almost like it's being a bunch of horses are being channeled through my this my producer guy stays with who I worked with a few years ago and I've read come into the studio you'd say okay so what horse from the apocalypse is coming in today? I was just like, oh my God, is that how you see these songs? So another horse came in, of course. But so what I really love revenge fantasy, imagining it, writing songs about it,

even sort of physicalizing it, like what I would do, you know? Oh, yeah. But I just don't do it. So my kids, you know, my son will want to hit me or anybody and I'll just go, you know oh yeah um but i just don't do it so my kids you know my son will want to hit me or anybody and i'll just go you know what i totally understand wanting to hit someone i want to hit people all the time and i just don't but i hit this or i hit this pillow or i write this song or you know so the non-destructive thing is key no it's it's a fantasy. Well, it's real. It's about lots of men, maybe. No, it's about a person. You ought to know it's about a person.

But I'll never talk about it because that would take it out of what I really believe, which is the imagination of revenge, you know? It's like I might imagine wrecking something because I'm so angry. I don't want to wreck something. No. So for me me telling the names

and addresses and information about all the people I'm writing about would be counter to why I wrote it really sure I understand it is just that I wondered if it was about a person it is about a person yeah good yeah and I hope he he does know and I hope he didn't. I don't know if he knows. Find happiness. Yeah. Well, I hope he didn't. Your revenge goes from fantasy into consequence. Because he ought to know. Doesn't he ought? He knew.

How many times have you passed him? Something tells me he now knows. Although there will be no corroboration. There never will be because, again, it just doesn't. Yeah, but the best revenge is being happy, isn't it? I guess. Yeah. I don't know. although there will be no corroboration there never will be because again it just doesn't yeah but the best revenge is being happy isn't it i guess yeah i don't know of course it is okay thanks i'm gonna i'm gonna work that one the best revenge that you're very happy and you're in postpartum depression absolute life the perfect life that you want to have which i do yeah i do

have the life that i want to have i wanted ask, because there was a lyric that stuck out, and I'm sorry I'm going to misquote it, but you will know, and it's in Reasons I Drink. And it was talking about working from single digits. Okay. So what were you doing? Did you mean that you were writing songs, or were you just, I was interested about that lyric?

Yeah, what does that mean? Yeah, basically, in terms of addictions, I have about 15 of them, but my main ones are love addiction, food addiction, and work addiction. And work addiction is gaining a little bit more attention now. A gentleman named Brian Robinson is sort of the seminal voice in my mind, and I have the privilege of feeling really close with him and having worked with him. Basically what it is, it's overgiving, over serving, over working, not knowing the limits, over expending. And that was my role in my family was to help and serve and watch. And I'm very high empath, highly sensitive. So in a way that's a gift and a curse sometimes. I can really tune

in to how everybody's moods are and I kind of ride it a little bit. So basically when I say I was working since I can remember, I was definitely writing songs, taking dance lessons and spending an inordinate amount of time outside of school in music studios with tons of adults, not all of whom knew how to really protect a child, let's just say. But yeah, just basically in a sort of parentified, older than her years. And the ways that it would be praised or rewarded would sound like, oh, wow, you're so poised or you're so wise beyond your years. But on some level, that was kind of exploited. You know, like, oh, I know you're only 12, but come with me.

Or I know you're only 10, but I am am gonna take you up on this marital advice or I know you're only 15 but you know I think I'm in love with you and I mean I was so much more of a rabbit hole conversation that is warranted around that and I sing about it a song called sandbox love is a song about what what healthy sex could look like after having been sexually abused because there's so much right now hashtag me too about finally admitting what's happened and maybe seeking some sort of reparative corrective experience publicly which is great but there's not a lot written about what do you do now though once once i've done the inner work and tons of therapy and trying to figure out how to heal the sexual abuse or sexual abuse, basically, wounds, how do I have sex now?

What does it look like? I have nothing to reference, you know? So Sandbox Love, the song, is about just diving into that world of like where do we go now as a couple knowing what we know, you know? of like where do we go now as a couple knowing what we know you know and that is awkward and hilarious and slightly paralyzed and and then awesome you know so it's a new world for me on a sexual level too I've never really had healthy sex until now it's clearly therapeutic sandbox love it's how you get through a really horrendous experience and you both are struggling and you manage it with humor and laughter and taking things back to basic nice really in the sandbox isn't it yeah like going all the way back to you let's say I was having

my first sexual experience at I don't know what age. I don't even know what's appropriate. Eight years old, eleven years old, fifteen years old, twenty years old, I have no idea. I attempt to normalize all body parts as best as I can like it's your forehead, this is your elbow, this is your vagina, this is your toe, this is your... you know so we try to keep everything neutral and use the actual words instead of words that kind of denote shame about genitals or shame about body parts I mean we're figuring it out in real time but I want to as best as I can just to sort of keep it untinged by my past well I hate to say but I just worked out why people call a lady's parts pussy because it comes from the word pusillanimous which means I didn't know this

I'm frightened cowardly hold on do you feel like somebody's being generous to all these idiots that call it a pussy I feel like this is far more I was just gonna say that's um that's giving few people a lot of credit pusillanimous and it means cowardly and kind of fey and yeah. Like a flower. That's what I read yesterday. Yeah. Wow. I'm going to, I'm going to follow up.

That's, that's on the curriculum today. Now you know. Now I know. Thank you, by the way. I was, I was completely, yeah, I was lost and now I am found and I can't pronounce it. I want to learn more. I want to know, Alanis, would you ever do like a little summer camp for keen learners that want to come over to the Alanis Morissette, you know, summer camp of learning? I feel like you should like have a school of thought almost like,

are you going to do something like this? Are you going to write a book on this? Yeah, I've done some talks at UCLA a few years ago just to kind of cut my teeth and then started doing some keynote talks and then I did probably three at this point sort of formal quote-unquote teachings at a place called 1440 Multiversity but with what's going on right now pandemic-wise they're closed for the time being but I love getting in a room with you know maybe tops 200 people and then I have co-leaders who co-lead with me and we just we go for it for two or three days and really drill down and have experiential exercises you know and it's such a gift for me too because it's just smack dab in the middle of the pure humanity you know and everyone in the

room is safe and there's nothing being asked of anyone that is going to push them beyond their limit it's very important to me that people say no if they don't want to participate in something. So it's a pretty safe, idyllic environment. And I'd love to do more. I've also done a podcast with a lot of authors and people who've helped me over the years, different teachers and mentors. And a book is being written.

There's about 1,300 pages. And when this record comes out, I'm finishing a meditation record that we're working on because I just thought while this is all happening my nervous system is jacked to high heaven I'm like what could I create that would be a win for me and then a service to others and meditation music is really good for the nervous system so we're doing that next and then the book will likely follow and the challenge with the book is that the topics are so disparate in a way. Like I'm attempting to put it all in one book, but I don't want it to be war and peace.

So I might separate it into different volumes. That sounds so exciting. I can't wait for the meditation record too. And I have this corner of the library just has all these instruments and my kids come in and play. And we're recording it all through Zoom. And I've never done a record not in person with someone so this is new for me wow this is i mean i i want to just tell you that we were playing on the same bill in finland a few years ago and uh it was like it was like a jazz festival i think but i was on the bill and you were on the bill. But it was a lovely festival, right?

And you were headlining. And I think I was on before you or maybe like one before you. And we had to leave because we had a gig somewhere else. We had to leave as we heard you go on stage. And so we put on Jagged Little Pill and I had honestly the best sing song I was I was I think I was about nine weeks pregnant with my son and I felt like shit and I we sung to the top of our voices my whole band and it was so cathartic and wonderful um I wanted to know have you got a karaoke song or do you not like it?

Because I don't usually like it, but it felt really good to be Alanis Morissette for about an hour in the coach on the way back. Oh, man. When you say karaoke, do you mean who do I sing along with and try to sound like? Well, I mean, I'm kind of interested in both. But like, who would you do if you were in karaoke bar? All right. if I were it would be so as a as a young girl I used to think that if I could sing along with Aretha Franklin

and Patti LaBelle and even Mariah Carey if I could hit these notes yeah but somehow it would legitimize me as a vocalist so anytime I'd hear a song where there were some gymnastic vocal things going on I would just immediately start singing to see if I could, almost like a gymnastics exercise. Like, can I get up, can I flip three times too? So that was my way of attempting to quaff my vocal cords. But I've never, have I done a, I don't think I've even done a karaoke. I would be way too Canadian self-conscious to do that.

I think it's the Brit thing too. We are quite like, I find it quite uncomfortable. And, you know, yeah, I kind of, I think it's for people that aren't singers and then they can really let rip. People who are singers who just, you know, it's number 92 on their list of things that they have time for.

So they go to that karaoke and blow people's minds every Friday night. I am. Or not. I really, I want to thank you for being on our podcast this is honestly such an honor to have you and just to listen to you talk oh you are a royalty to us oh you're so sweet both of you I'm so glad I could see your faces even though everyone else couldn't and just so everyone knows when like you you've got dates to tour in 2021.

2021. We're hoping everyone feels safe enough to come into a room. We'll see what happens. But we're coming. I mean, we'll come and tour. And I mean, I'm chomping at the bit, but I'm also, it won't be a minute before people feel safe, obviously. Yeah. Well, look, sending you love and congratulations on the record.

Thank you both. Have a wonderful day. And yeah, I'm mad about you, Alanis. So thank you so much. Yeah, me too. I'm mad about you both. Oh, thanks, you both. Thanks for all the sweetness you're throwing all around the planet. Bless you. Thanks for this. well well well isn't it ironic that i didn't swear that much until right at the end i don't know if that is ironic the school of morette. She's a bit of a goddess. She's a goddess. Yeah.

I was like writing notes like I was in a seminar, like I was back at uni. She's like an encyclopedia. I'm sorry, I'm not going to homeschool my kids though because I am not a saint. No. What's her husband like? He must be a big bloke.

Why? Because he carried her down a mountain, you dope. I love that. What lasted with you after that incredible, inspiring chat with international goddess, thinker, the bloke that carried her down the hill must be really strong. Oh no, but he looks like. Alanis Morissette, I feel enriched and thankful that I just got to singer either she was doing this and she was so open and generous and that was wonderful i loved it mum you still with us yeah i'm just looking at soul eye what a woman what a mind and what a voice she looks very happy with him. Mum is now looking at Google images of Soul Eye and Alanis and they look very happy together.

I'm looking whether he could carry her down a mountain. Well, I'm going to go and listen to Orange Sky, their first dance. I'm going to go and have my dinner. Thank you, Alanis Morissette. Such Pretty Forks in the Road is out now and I think you should all go and listen to it because you wouldn't know. and I think you should all go and listen to it because you wouldn't know.

I'm here to remind you that Such Pretty Forks In The Road is out now. Go and listen to it. Thank you, Alanis Morissette. And I'm here to remind you. Thank you so much for listening to Table Manners. I'm sure you just enjoyed that, and we will see you next week The music you've listened to

on Table Manners is by Peter Duffy and Pete Fraser and Table Manners is edited by the wonderful Alice Williams