Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - Second Helpings - Keir Starmer

Episode Date: July 31, 2024

We’re back with another trip down memory lane for our ‘Second Helpings’ series. It’s only been a year and what a difference it has been for our first guest - Prime Minister Keir Starmer! Last year Keir came round to mum’s for dinner and he told us all about his love of experimental cooking, his mum's jam sandwiches, eating fish & chips on the road, the controversy over his Desert Island Discs song choices and the tradition of Friday night shabbat with his family. We’ll be back next week for another Second Helpings episode with the Queen of Glastonbury 2024! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners Second Helpings. This is the second time we've done Second Helpings because people liked it so much last year. We thought whilst we're off air, we'd remind you of some of the many interesting chats that we've had with different guests over the years. How are you mum? Well darling, who'd have thought a year ago that the person that we had round for tea would be our new Prime Minister? Yes, Sir Keir Starmer, our new Prime Minister, came round last July in 2023, where he came for an early evening supper. Pescatarian, only thing he didn't want was avocado.

And what did you make for him, Lenny? Well, I made tomato tart. It was really good. Delicious. I gave him the cookbook. Alison Roman. Yeah, I gave him the cookbook because he liked it so much. A puy lentil salad, courgette salad with mint,

aubergine, tomato and cucumber salad. I just wonder if he's sorted out the food in the House of Commons and whether he's going to have place settings so everyone mixes in and gets to know each other, all those new MPs. When we had the chat with him, he'd only had time for a tuna sandwich on the go. A pret tuna sandwich, that was his go-to.

I doubt he's got any more time to, he probably can't even fit the whole bloody baguette in for lunchtime now. Does he even get a lunchtime anymore? He's busy. And yeah, I hope you enjoy this episode. Sakhir Starmer, you're in Clapham.

You're about to get fed by Lenny Ware. And we've got so many questions to ask. Mostly food related. Very good. Thank you for being here. No, not at all. Thanks for having me.

You know, we've had some other MPs on. Yeah, some of your front bench. Who have you had on? Jess Phillips. Oh, yeah, I did know that. And Ed Miliband. Ed came on.

Yeah. They're fantastic. And can I just tell you, very flirty. What? Yeah. Surprisingly, asked me if I'd like to go naked swimming at Hampstead Ponds. Oh, he's obsessed with wild swimming. I didn't realise it was that wild.

Well, I think, yeah. Well, I didn't either. He's tried to sell it to me as just sort of good for the soul. I did go naked with him too. Mum, you don't feel so special. He's become so into wild swimming. Oh, no.

But, oh, well, wait till I have a word with him. And he had Sadiq. Had Sadiq. Yeah, we've had Sadiq? Had Sadiq. Yeah, we've had Sadiq. For years. He gave us the scoops. I'm waiting for your scoop for us, please. Thank you.

He said that he was announcing that he was running for mayor again. So I'm just, we'll wait. We'll give you a few glasses, Keir, and we'll see what you've got. Oh, did he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That's really nice. But, Keir, let's start at the beginning.

Dinner, around the dinner table. Who was around the dinner table? Are you a Londoner? Yes, Kentish Town. Oh, right. Proper Londoner. So who was cooking your meals when you were a child and who was eating them or not eating them?

So when I was growing up, I lived out in Surrey, on the Surrey-Kent border, in a semi-detached, pebble-dashed house with my mum and dad and four kids, three bedrooms. So I shared with my brother and my sister shared with each other. So I had the bunk bedroom with my brother. Did you like that? It was very cramped. Where did you, are you the eldest?

So I've got an older sister. Right. I'm then next. And then I've got a brother and sister who are 18 months younger, who are twins. Oh, wow. And so that's where we lived. And cooking wise, this was what I would call a sort of classic working class family. So my dad worked in a factory. He was a toolmaker. My mom was a nurse, but she, i don't know whether you know that she had

stills disease when she was young when she was 11 which is basically a very aggressive juvenile arthritis and it um can destroy your sort of system and um luckily for her they found something that could treat her at least mitigating and so because the diagnosis at prognosis at 11 was that she wouldn't walk after the age of 20 and she wouldn't be able to have kids so even the fact that i'm here is a sort of miracle down to guys hospital and what they're able to do with her but that meant that in the end it was just my dad working um and so it was a very traditional setup mum did all the cooking. All the cooking. Good cook? Yeah, really good. But my dad, I can't,

I was thinking about this when I was coming down. I can't remember my dad ever cooking anything. It was just such a traditional working class setup. He just didn't cook anything. Mum did everything. And what was a memorable dish that your mum made well um in when i was growing up it was british food yeah british food always really so my dad was really sort of rigid frameworked about this so he wasn't going to be eating pasta or anything like that you're kidding

so it was british food there was there came a point must be when I was a teenager I think when my mum sort of branched out and tried a chicken curry it's one of these uh sort of chicken and a bit of curry sauce and some sultanas and a bit of rice and this for us this was really exotic for us because otherwise it was um as you'd expect sort of sausages mash meat veg it was It was that chicken and potatoes or vegetables. It was always that sort of menu. And you don't eat meat now? I don't eat meat now, but then it was classic, potato, two veg or something like that.

So how did the curry go down in the household? I thought it was great. Did your dad like it? Eventually, yeah. But he wouldn't be adventurous on anything else um so you know we we didn't try anything else at all when I was growing up so with your mum's illness did that make it quite hard for you mean having four kids in the house were there times when it was quite debilitating for her that it was obvious for you and you were aware of it yeah it was all of the time really she was in incredible pain and

struggling all the time what's interesting looking back at it I don't think I noticed as much then because she'd been she contracted this illness before I was born obviously so she was always I never knew it you know this was always how mum was. And there was always, you know, at mealtimes, along with the food, there would always be a sort of mum's tablets that she'd have at every meal because she had to have painkillers and strong tablets and then other tablets to take away the side effects of the first set of tablets and that sort of thing. So that was part of the routine, if you like, at the table, which was the food.

And then, you know, all of the tablets and medicines that had to go alongside it. And were you all talking about politics at dinner time? No, not particularly. Were your parents political? Not actively. So my dad was a Labour supporter. It was a Labour household. And very strongly believed in the Labour Party and the Labour movement.

And in terms of activity, so I remember distinctly he would go to work at eight o'clock in the morning come home at five o'clock for his tea then go back to work at six till ten o'clock at night you're kidding five days a week this was his routine because we didn't have a lot of money and so he so he would come in, eat and go. And therefore there was no space in his life for activities, political activities. So did he play with you? So he was too busy to even get involved. I can't remember him being particularly involved with us.

It was always mum, particularly when we were younger. So if we sort of came home from school particularly primary school it'd be mum that was there to greet us when we came in at whatever time from primary school half past three four and at that stage I've got this distinct memory of sort of jam sandwiches at about four o'clock in the afternoon. And my mum always, in my head at least, always playing Jim Reeves. Jim Reeves? Yeah, she loved Jim Reeves.

Who's Jim Reeves? Oh, it's like a country singer. An old country singer from years ago. Who's Jim Reeves? That's so great. Sorry. It just shows where this is from. Obviously, your mum was incredibly busy bringing up four children,

and your dad was incredibly busy bringing up four children and your dad was incredibly busy bringing home the bacon and and and do you think if your mum had worked what do you think she would have been interested in doing she was she did she would have carried on being a nurse she loves she works whilst being so she was exhausted too she she worked in her late teens um when she first went to work. Okay. And then she stopped. And then did she go back? No, no.

She wasn't strong enough to go back. And also having four children just didn't allow her to go back. But she loved the NHS. She was so proud of being a nurse. It was like, goes through like a sort of a rock. It was incredible. So she'd definitely have carried on being a nurse if she could have done. How old was she when she had her first child?

She was 21, I think, maybe just 22. So basically, once she'd been told, because of your illness, you may not have children. She kept going. Well, she said, I'm not having that. And obviously took these drugs which were a sort of form of steroids which helped mitigate the illness and then then she got on with it because she got married at 21 and had children straight away because i think she must

i've never discussed this with her and obviously i can't now because she's passed away but I I assume it's because she felt um at any moment I might not be ill I might not be well enough to have children so I'm not going to hang about I'm going to get on with it so she was determined and had four children um was it a happy childhood yeah yeah um it was happy it was um I did a lot of sports. I was playing football the whole time, out in the house doing that sort of thing. But yeah, it was. There wasn't a lot of discussion.

We didn't sort of discuss politics or current affairs around the kitchen table. It wasn't that kind of household. When did you get interested in politics? I joined the Labour Party when I was 16. So there was something there, obviously, that got me into politics. Was it a particular figure in the Labour Party? No, it was just this burning sense that we needed to change things, and that if you're going to change things, it had to be the Labour Party.

So it just made absolute sense to me to join the Labour Party as soon as I could. It was just sort of hardwired in me. But it didn't come out of discussions around the kitchen table i think it came out of um observing what i mean we didn't have a lot of money so i knew you know there were times when things were really tough and we couldn't afford to pay all the bills so we'd have to choose you know what wouldn't we pay and the one we always chose was the telephone because that was a landline it was i, a monthly payment or whatever it was. And if you had your phone cut off, you didn't have to pay that bill. So it was quite tough in that sense. I mean, not pleading poverty or anything, but it was, you know, we knew what it was like not to have a lot of money.

And this goes to sort of food as well, because my mum and dad almost never had anyone around. Because my dad felt that people disrespected him because he worked in a factory. He felt this really strongly that people looked down on him. And you know when people come round for dinner or whatever it is, and you're meeting people for the first time, you inevitably have that discussion. Well, what do you do for a living? And he hated that discussion.

Because he felt that as soon as he said he worked in a factory people sort of went quiet and didn't quite know what to say did you feel like that when you were at school if kids asked you what your dad did i didn't feel like that but it's given me something i've held on to all my life which is a real sense that respect and dignity are for me probably the two most valuable and important values in life and I and that that I think was deep in me and I think it's what drove me to say I want to be in the Labour Party and to change things and you know and that then took me on a different course to my dad because my dad did his skills education his technical skills at night school whereas I got

the chance to go off to university so this was the sort of um the opportunity that I was now getting that others hadn't had and my dad hadn't had to be the first your dad he was yeah yeah he was did he read a lot he read a lot um he listened to music a lot he listened to classical music but there was no chance of him going to university when he was growing up. It was you're going out to get a job and you need the technical skills to do it. So that's what he did. But he wanted it. I don't know, this sense that he wasn't valued because of what he did.

And that really burnt away at him and in the end stopped them having people around. And then we wouldn't go out to eat i don't remember ever going to a restaurant as a child ever we did go you know if we're on holiday did you have fish and chips on holiday we'd have takeaway fish and chips on the birthday of any of us um and that would be takeaway bring it home and then when we're on holiday we went to lake district every year because my mum loved the Lake District. And so we always went there. And we would then occasionally eat at pubs,

sort of pub food in the evening. But beyond that, never, I mean, I honestly can't remember going to a restaurant with my mum and dad. Do you still like fish and chips? I do still like fish and chips. Vinegar on? Vinegar definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very important. But then, so I then got the chance to go you know on a journey that took me away from that sort of small town working class base to Leeds University which was an incredible journey and one of the speeches I gave the other day was about smashing the class ceiling and breaking the link between where children and young people start in life and where they can get to. And too many children and young people are still, their future is determined by the earnings and income of their parents

rather than their own ability. It's true. I mean, you know, this is a moral mission like none other. But for me, I was now starting a different journey, which was off to university which was fantastic and so I mean it was eye-opening because you go from a small town to a city I've never really been to a big city like this before I'd gone as far as Croydon in South London but I hadn't got to you know a city like Leeds and so suddenly you're

you know this is a big city. It's diverse. There's lots of things going on. And suddenly my horizon for food just expanded massively. Where were the restaurants or the places that you were going out and eating? Indian restaurants. I'd never been to an Indian restaurant. This was fantastic.

Yeah. You know, Chinese restaurants. Curry chips. You know, curry chips. Leeds, I remember the first time curry sauce on your chip curry sauce on your chip but that's kind of northern thing isn't it yeah yeah it's not southern but it was such a you know that sort of journey opportunity social mobility call it what you like but it was suddenly my world was opening up and that included food because of the fact that we'd always eaten pretty traditional did you live in the hall of reticence i did yeah to start with and did you um and then you shared a flat then i shared a flat for the second year yes i love

cooking do you what was one of your university delights that you would offer up to your friends i don't think delights would be the word. We had six of us in the house and we had a rota where each of us kicked one night in a week for everybody else. Oh, you had a rota. Was it all blokes? No, no, no. It was very democratic.

Yeah. Three blokes, three girls in the house. All studying the same thing? No, different things. So I had one of my very best friends who was studying law with me and then there was one person I'd been at school with and various others that we sort of connected with

as we went on the journey. But as for the... The food was cheap as chips food because the most important thing was the ingredients had to be cheap because you're a student, you didn't have much money and it was chilli con carne or coronation chicken. Oh, that sounds quite coronation chicken oh that sounds quite cheap yeah when did you give up meat then i gave up meat um probably about 25 years ago so after university um i gave up meat why

as a matter of principle okay and that's why i struggle with it because i love meat oh dear oh god god you really are principal i wouldn't be that principal but it's um and to start with i gave up fish as well but then um i went back to fish because i found it too much to lose but then i got together with vick my wife she's been proper vegetarian in the sense she doesn't eat meat or fish. She did that when she was eight or nine years old. So no chicken soup on a Friday night? No chicken soup. Mock chicken soup.

It's very good. Mock chicken soup? Yeah, yeah. Tell me about it. Try it one day. It's nice. It's good. So how do you make it?

Well, she does it with just a sort of mixed thing. Vegetables? Yeah. Matsables? We've got, yeah okay then we've got two children so our boy is 15 and our girl is 12 do you cook meat for that so our girl has never in her life tasted meat or fish because until she gets to university well this is the thing having that chili con carne so so as soon as what we said to the kids was by the time they're about 10 it's up to you yeah you know we don't have meat or fish in the house we don, by the time they're about 10, it's up to you. Yeah.

You know, we don't have meat or fish in the house. We don't cook it. Until they're about 10, obviously they're just eating with us. Oh, I've got veggie friends who've always cooked meat for their children. Yeah, so we never did. And then at the age of 10, we said, you can do what you like. And our boy said, great. So he orders, the moment we go out, there's a delivery for Kentucky Fried Chicken or McDonald's.

So he's taken full sort of liberty with the licence But when you go out he orders it? No he will order meat In front of you? Yeah we're not bothered by that And you just smell it and think oh wow So if you give up meat or fish

on a matter of principle you still sort of hanker after it and so when he brings it in house it's like do you do any of the kind of substitute like we do the this bacon or something like that and you'll do the seitan or you know kind of linda mccartney yeah we do all of that the corn sausages yeah um the beyond meat burgers which are really good yeah really good yeah i mean quite a lot of the time if we're cooking

we don't bother with that because if you're doing pasta or something like that you don't need to What's the veggie food like in the House of Commons? Oh the food in the House of Commons is pretty

you know it's nothing special Really? Yeah I thought it was quite Somebody needs to set up a really nice sort of restaurant

or takeaway in the house. Maybe this is where... Seriously. Table manners. Mum, you're about to go into retirement. Maybe you should do that. Yes.

A really nice salad bar, a fresh salad bar or something. You don't even have a fresh salad bar? No. No. Oh, wow. So this is... You've got to come in... Okay, you've got to come in as my guest to Parliament and have a look around.

Okay. And see what you make of the food. And then, you know, to get in there and do something. Can I ask, when you're having dinner or lunch in the House of Parliament, do you only sit with people from the same party or have you got mates in the Tory party or the Liberals? Or is it like quite kiki? No, there is almost never a slot put in my diary for lunch

and therefore there isn't such a slot put in my diary for lunch. And therefore, there isn't such a thing as a lunch break. Therefore, I'll be eating on the move or between meetings, etc. But the second part of your question is really interesting, which is, is it all tribal? Yeah. For some people, it is like that. Not for me, because I think I came into politics later in life.

I'd done other jobs. I'd been a lawyer. So you'd sit next to Nadine and have... Well, I'm not sure about that. But there are, you know, there are Tories and other MPs that I get on perfectly well with. Well, that lovely lady who spoke about Harriet Harman last week. Yeah, she was really good. Wow, wasn't she fabulous? Yeah.

Yeah, and, you know know when in the middle of the really fierce brexit debates i was leading for our party on it so in the middle of the debates and my dad was dying and it was awful and so i'd have to sort of be in the middle of this debate and then leave that at the end of the debate and then get a train down to the hospital it was in and it was a really it was the first time i had that very intense public person private grief going on and two or three of the tory mps reached out to me particularly when he died and that sort of thing you can't really you can't ever say there's such tribal politics that we can't get on and do things together or talk or have coffee or eat if we had time. So, you know, I'm not a great believer in that, you know, divisive politics.

Well, we were thinking, Jesse's been thinking about how divided our country is at the minute. Well, it's more about the culture wars and just kind of how it feels so polarising, and particularly for my generation it just feels like I mean yeah I mean everyone's got an opinion and I feel like the right really use marginalised groups such as immigrants or queer people trans people to really use them as pawns to kind of and how do you feel do Do you feel exhausted by it? I feel... You feel responsible.

I feel responsible, particularly for, I have a huge queer following and I feel incredibly responsible when I'm speaking to you, the leader of opposition, to kind of, how do I phrase one question to you

when this is about food and family and there's so many questions that so many people have? I think you're the first person when we've mentioned you were coming on, and everybody had a question for you. Oh, that's great. Every single person.

That's really good. I mean, not all that friendly, Keir. That's absolutely understood. You can imagine, yeah. No, no, no. You know, that's completely understood. And so it should be. There's always going to be that combination of people

who support what you're doing, who want to challenge what you're doing. But how do you do, like, how do you unite everybody when it feels so polarising? And how do you, you know, you talk about respect and dignity being so important for you. And, like, how do you... How do you please everybody?

You can't please everybody, right? No, you can't please everybody, but you can... Joe Cox, who was a fantastic, fantastic friend and MP, came into Parliament on the same day as me, and, you know, just a tragic story. But obviously she did her maiden speech when she said, we've got more in common than that which divides us. That is so powerful and so meaningful. And I think that amongst the reasons the Conservatives have gone into this toxic space of divide,

culture wars, is because they haven't got a record that they can stand on. They haven't got any leadership that they can really believe in. And therefore they've gone to this divisive place. And that relies on a politics that says, let's find the points of difference. So if you and I are going to have a conversation, let's find where we don't agree, rather than trying to find what we do agree on.

So it becomes an echo chamber and then nothing can work. Yeah yeah we have to break out of that because it's exhausting it puts people into camps they don't really want to be in they entrench in those camps and it means that there's a sort of collective lack of sort of belief in politics as a force for good because everybody just goes further and further to one side or other in the debate and just shouts at each other or shouts past each other so nobody's listening in this it's very corrosive for the idea that i really believe in which is that politics ought to be a force for good so we have to find a way to get through that and there are i mean this is going back to the thing about different mps um after joe cox died theresa may joined the sort of campaign around different MPs. After Joe Cox died, Theresa May joined the sort of campaign around loneliness,

which was one of Joe's sort of themes, on a cross-party basis. So there is the ability to do that and we desperately need to get back to that. I mean, Kit, it's such a task that you have on your hands and I just don't know where you start. Like, when, if you get into power, where do you I just don't know where you start like when when if you get into power where do you start like what do you start with immigration uh I I like it feels

it does it not feel rather I mean you can't yeah don't and why do you want to do it because I want to change the country for the better I absolutely passionately want to think about what the impact on your kids and um yeah you know that they're going to be followed by horrible right-wing press trying to bring you down or trip you up? Yeah, it's a journey, as all these things are. I didn't come into Parliament to be leader of the Labour Party or to become the Prime Minister. I came into Parliament in the hope that Ed Miliband

would win the 2015 election, and I might just about become the Attorney General or something in his cabinet. So this wasn't something. And the election, getting Labour into government, is not about me. It's not about me going through the door of number 10. It's not about my shadow cabinet becoming the cabinet. It's not even about the Labour Party. It's about the country. It's about taking the country forward.

So that's where I sort of come from on it. And that drives me forward. And I know there's tough things and we'll have to do tough things and make difficult decisions. And I try not to get ahead of myself. But what you touched on there, one of the things that I'm most worried about

is the impact on our children. Now, we've been as protective as I hope we can be. So we never name them in public. We never have promotional photos done with them. Will you continue to not do that if you're primed? It's going to be hard. Yeah, it's going to be hard. I mean, obviously we're out and about with them,

and so people know who they are and they see them, but by and large that's been respected and protected so that they can get on with their lives. I do worry, though, because our boy was 15 the other week, so he will, I'm assuming the election is next year, you know, either May or October, he will be 16. And our daughter is 12, going on 16 or 17 already. She will be 13.

These are really important ages, and it will have an impact on their lives. Have you spoken... I mean, who's had... If you make it to number 10, who's had similar age groups in there? Because Tony Blair's were younger. Tony's were a bit younger.

A bit younger. And then Ed's were a little bit younger as well. And Boris has got so many that we don't... I mean, he's got a few in every decade. So I don't know. I can't remember now the age of david camera's children um they were quite young and then he sadly lost a child as well while he was in yeah but like today jesse's been in the sports day with the mum's race are you participating

in sports days and things like that not anymore but why Why not? Football injury. No, because... How old are your children now? Six, four and two. So what happened to us, and I think this happens to every parent is, you lovingly walk the kids to school and pick them up. And I used to make a real habit,

however busy I was, to try and make sure that several days a week I was there at the school gates because I do not want to be that man, and it is usually men, who say in years to come, I wish I'd spent more time with your kids. If you want to spend more time with your kids,

spend more time with your kids. But there does come a point, and it's going to come, I'm afraid, probably the last year at primary school, where certainly our kids said, oh, can you just drop me at the corner, Dad? And because they're growing up and the idea of me pitching up

to now secondary school for them would be something that would, you know, that's just a no-go. They do not want me there on sports day. This is coming, I'm afraid. It's coming. No, Jesse. I want to know, you've got teenagers.

They must be politically minded or are they completely kind of just don't want to know about it. Do you have debates with them around the dinner table? Is it a very different situation than what it was when you were growing up? Just say they wanted to join the Conservatives. Could you imagine that? We do talk politics.

We talk, you know, broadly. I try not to impose it on them, obviously. What are they most interested about talking to you about? Oh, work, the the job what goes on i mean genuine so our boy came into parliament last week yeah and was fascinated came into some of the debates sat in the debates he knew more of our front benches than i thought i mean he recognized them so he would he would say i'm not i'm not interested in politics and he says in very strong terms i'm not going into politics he's he says in very strong terms, I'm not going into politics. He's decided, having watched me, that he's not going to become a lawyer.

He's not going to become a politician. But it's quite interesting that deep down, he's beginning to sort of explore those ideas. Our girl, slightly less, she's only 12. So she's just developing those ideas. And I wouldn't thrust it on them. I mean, we've only got two rules for our kids which is happy and confident so I'm not when we wouldn't say they've got to go off to

university they've got to become this that or the other we genuinely just want them to be happy and confident yeah I mean that's all you want right it's yeah and kind maybe add kind I think I'm all right with you then darling yeah you're quite confident and you're happy. Yeah, doing great things. I'm doing okay. I'm now terrified about my children and being happy, confident. No, but congratulations on everything you've achieved. I mean, it's incredible. Thank you.

The music stuff is through the roof. Thank you. You know, trying. Let's talk about music, actually. I went clubbing the other weekend. I want to know last time you went clubbing, Keir. Oh, gosh, I can't remember. You're into me.

I really enjoyed your Desert Island Discs. Oh, yeah. Well, I'll tell you a very funny story about that. Because, obviously, what I tried to do was pick songs that meant something to me on the journey. So Jim Reeves was the first one because it reminded me of my mum. I went through classical music, you know, Northern Soul, I love, Orange Juice, Edwin Collins, that sort of thing.

But I ended with Stormzy with Bridge Over Troubled Water, which I think is a fantastic, a beautiful song. It was actually a Grenfell tribute song as well, and it's beautiful. And our kids are quite into Stormzy, particularly our boy. And so it was something that ended it. Have you met him? No, I haven't, although I went to his record company and they played me his latest album,

which is really good, really, really good. And he was sort of texting them at the time saying, what does he think of it? What does he think of it? So I haven't been, so I chose that as my final song. And that's fine. And then I was at a pub. This was about six months ago.

And just with Vic and a couple of friends of ours, so just, you know, very social. And some guy comes up to me at the bar and says, you're a fraud. And I said, well, you're, you know, no wonder we don't vote for you. You're a fraud. I said, you know, I'm on my, I'm with my wife.

What are you talking about? He said, Desert Island Discs. And I thought, of all the challenges I've had on our politics of policy, I'm with my wife, what are you talking about? He said, Desert Island Discs. And I thought, of all the challenges I've had on our politics of policy, this guy's actually challenging me. He didn't like your music. No, he said, you don't listen to Stormzy, you're not being honest. And I said, did you listen to it?

Because I wasn't saying I listened to Stormzy. I was using records which told a story or reminded me of bits in my life. But it was so interesting to be challenged on. Is that then when you made the call to the label to be like, can I go in and listen to Stormzy's new record, please? No, but I should have been. Was it the press team being like, quick, quick, you must go and listen? So interesting. Are people often rude to you? Do they come up when you're out and say oh by and large people are really positive good um and that is great um but you know it can go either way but by and large and i'm still in the relatively lucky position i can walk down the high street i mean you know without too much aggravation um those things how do taxi drivers treat you if you get in a black cab? Because they've always got something to say.

They're not big fans of Sadiq, I have to say. No, well, I now have to have a police team with me every time I'm out. So that makes for a different lifestyle. Thank God for that then. Please report back. No, but you know what black cab drivers are like. Should we eat? Yeah.

Oh, God. I mean, you must just be exhausted. It's busy. It's busy. Do you think it will be even more full on if you get into number 10? Yes, it's really hard. And, you know, again, that's just the way it is. But then it's a question of trying to ensure that we find time.

But then it's a question of trying to ensure that we find time. So I'm really, really clear. I will not do, unless it's absolutely urgent or a special reason, I won't do a Friday night event. So at six o'clock we'll go home and we will be as a family home on a Friday night together. Vic's dad comes over sometimes. He's 94 and so he comes to us at the weekend quite a lot. For people that don't know

your wife is jewish yes she is yes um so so her family are from poland originally and so so friday nights is shabbat yeah so we do um particularly when her dad's there we do prayers um etc and but we're all in and we want you know and i want that to like that to last for as long as it can because the kids are in and that sort of thing. I got bat mitzvahed at the end of last year. Oh, did you? Yeah, and when I remember we do Friday nights and there's something incredibly meditative about that feeling

of being able to kind of say goodbye to the week and actually pause for a moment and look each other in the eye and have a conversation over the dinner table and say the broccas and I don't know there's something I find incredibly reassuring about it when I'm not working on a Friday night or

I think that's probably right and for me knowing and for the kids knowing, Vic knowing that we, you know, barring exceptional weeks, we will all be there on a Friday night together, is it's a sort of rock in the week, if you like. You know, now, a lot of it is spent arguing about if we're going to get a takeaway, what we're going to get,

or all the rest of it. But it is really nice and special. Oh, look at this. Mum. That is, so that's pilpul prawns. Okay. Right. So, speak, Mum.

You tell, hear what we've got. That's a tomato tart. Lovely. That's pilpul prawns, like just garlicy prawns. That's, it's like guacamole, but no avocados. Yeah. You don't like avocados. What's that about? Just the taste of the taste.

So it's guacamole and avocados and bananas. Okay, well, we're all right. I can't eat or even smell bananas. There's something about bananas. This is from when I was, you know, when I was very, very young. This is aubergine. No, that's absolutely lovely. So that's tomato, that's pea lentils and that's courgette

salad. Fantastic. Enough for about 100 people. And I love salad. Salad is fantastic. So this is really good. Let's hope this works. So what did you have for lunch today? He doesn't stop for lunch. Today I had... Somebody fed him.

Today I had a tuna sandwich. I've had lorry loads of tuna sandwiches since I've been in this job. It's just, you know, this was during the middle of a meeting. Tuna sandwich. Homemade or...? No, no, just brought in from prep today. Got to love... What, the baguette or the sandwich

yeah but it's um you know the routine for the week is sort of monday tuesday wednesday in parliament or headquarters in london then out on the road for the rest of the time so lunch is just i can't remember the last time i stopped and had lunch as a meal, as it were, rather than just a sandwich on the road or a sandwich whilst we're working. This is really fantastic. Do you like it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, really good.

The tomato, it's really good. Really nice. It's really good. I like it. Jessie usually says... A chef called Alison Roman, who's amazing, came on, and this is from her new recipe book. Is it from her new one?

Yeah. I love cooking I just find it so relaxing I know this sounds really weird and I don't I'm not going to pretend I do it every night because I don't and Vic does most of the cooking during the week um for the kids not I mean quite often I'm not home in time for them anyway but on a Saturday I love it so I've got a sort of routine of... There's Craig Charles to Radio 6. Funk and salt.

But it's 6 o'clock. So good. I love it. And that's the point at which I'll sort of go into the kitchen. So you're not listening to dadaringers? No. So 6 music is your choice? Yep.

And then I've got it on, 6 o'clock, and I'll start chopping away and preparing and just pottling around the kitchen. I love it. What was your last meal that you cooked that you can remember? Well, so I cook nearly every week. So the latest one, I love tandoori salmon. And I've had fantastic.

We were up in Glasgow with the team. Mr. Singh's in Glasgow. Oh, I don't know it. That's a really fantastic curry restaurant. The best tandoori salmon I've ever had. Okay. Really, really brilliant. Amazing.

So I thought, right, I've got to cook this. So then I've sort of had several goes at it. And so that's probably the last thing. But I had, because Vic and the kids don't eat fish. Oh, gosh. So we got these corn pieces, which I also did, you know, tandoori. Like paneer, is it almost? It's almost like, no, it's chicken.

It's intended to be sort of imitation chicken. And is it nice? Yes, it's chicken. It's intended to be sort of imitation chicken. And is it nice? Yes, it's good, yeah. So, but I mean, and there are other dishes that I love doing on a Saturday. I mean, the problem I run into is I want it to be as different and as elaborate and as experimental as possible because that's part of the enjoyment is seeing what it's like, different ingredients, et cetera. But then for the kids, it's like, we want pasta and smart sauce.

We don't want to try anything else. So I get into this battle. So I have to do sort of pasta bakes that are as elaborate as I can get away with until it gets to the point where they won't enjoy or eat it. Okay, well, this leads us into last supper. You're going to... This is the last supper, so you're...

Well, you don't have to be dying. Death row thing, because it makes me feel horrible. So you're going on a desert island for about six months. No, I'd say, let's go... A year. A year. So, one of the things I did when I was a lawyer was work with the Death Penalty Project,

which is a project based here in London to minimise and get rid of the death penalty across the world, particularly in the English-speaking former colonies. So I did extensive cases in the Caribbean, probably went to the Caribbean about 50 times, to represent people and to fight for people not to be hung. So I've got as close to something, well, closer than I wanted to be to that feeling. Wow. Is there still the death penalty there now?

Yeah, there is. I mean, because of the work of the death penalty project, it's been much reduced, but it's... And they're hung there. It's death by hanging, yeah. So, I mean, and that's very, you know, when you're in a, the prisons in, you know, Jamaica, Trinidad, they're not nice places, as you can imagine. Sitting in a dark cell with someone who is destined to be hanged, it's really, it's an incredible moment.

And obviously we're fighting to save, normally, his life. There were some women that we represented in Uganda. But knowing that in this legal case, if you get it right, this person will live. And if you don't and you don't succeed, then they will in all likelihood be hung. How many did you save? Oh, I mean, I'd say we, because we worked as a team the whole time. Hundreds. When we went to Uganda,

there were over 400 people in one test case that we did at the same time. And we met them there in Kampala, which is obviously the centre of Uganda. The prison is high up on on a hill and you go in the prison it's high security all of the prisoners are in white shorts and white vest and we sat there with all 400 of them talking through the case we're going to be running on their behalf it's like a film set and some of them had been there 20 years Some of them were under 18 when they'd been convicted. And in the end, in that case, we won on behalf of all 400 of them, which didn't mean they were released from prison,

but it meant they weren't going to get hung and they could have the appropriate sentence for whatever they'd done. It was an incredible thing to do. So, you know, it was really... That was as close to the last supper as I wanted to get. Did you ever see them eating their last supper? Did you ever stay with them for that part? No, we were never there. And most of the time, I'm really happy to say,

the people we represented, we managed to get off death row. And so we didn't very often go through that horror of someone you're representing. Okay, so you're not going on death row. Okay, we're not going death row. So this is a last step. I'm going to go, I don't know, I'm going to go to a nice island or something.

You're going to go to a nice island, but limited food. Are we limited food? Yeah. So you've got to choose a starter, a main, a pudding, and a drink of choice. Starter, I'm going to go for a salad. Really? Come on, you're going to lose a few votes for that.

I love salad. I love salad. And I'm going to go for a seaweed salad with chilli. Oh my goodness, I've never heard of this. This is fantastic. This isn't intended to link, but now it does. When we were doing all these cases in the Caribbean, we used to have to go via

the top end of the Caribbean you go in via Miami and then fly across and so we would be several out in Miami and there were two dishes in Miami there was blackened fish which was fantastic and seaweed salad with chilli

a big bowl of it. So is it like sunfire? Yeah it's a bit sort of thinner and crispier And seaweed salad with chilli. A big bowl of it. So is it like sunfire? Yeah. It's seaweed? A bit sort of thinner and crispier. Sunfire seaweed. No, I know, but it's a different kind. It's not as salty. It is fantastic. Is it salty as well?

It's salty with chilli in. It is really... Have you ever tried to make it? No. Okay. I will try one day. I've not even ever really found it anywhere else. I've never...

It must be on... It's worth going to Miami for that. But it was really incredible. Okay, I like that. You kind of won me back. Okay, fine. Although I nearly lost you with starting with salad.

Hopefully that's... And then I'm going to go for my tandoori salmon because I love it. From Mr. Singh's. I'll probably have to go take away from Mr. Singh's. Fine, no problem.

I don't know where this... Can you make it? Have you just put your tandoori paste? Yeah, so that's That's the one I've done most recently which is, and I've done it now three or four times to try and get it right

get all the ingredients, make the paste marinate it Really? You're a perfectionist Yeah but I also I tend to follow the recipe rather than just sort of doing it without. Okay, I'll give you Alison Remen's book.

Okay, yeah. But it's so, so that's, I mean, that's the sort of most recent thing I've learned to make. I'm also trying to perfect the sort of the perfect arrabbiata from scratch, which, again, just getting the right blend. And that the kids will eat. So they like spicy? Yes. Okay. You like spicy? I like spicy, yeah. the right blend. And that the kids will eat. So they like spicy? Yes. Okay.

You like spicy? I like spicy, yeah. Okay, so... So my tandoori salmon is... Any sides? I'm not going to make this meal up. Any sides? Yeah, probably some...

We always get sort of dals and that sort of thing. Which naan do you go for? Plain naan. Plain naan. Really? Yeah. Why? Which one do you go for? Eshwari? Because

again, it's, no, the reason is because the kids wouldn't really eat anything other than a plain naan. So there's a bit of accommodation there. Okay. And pilau rice. Yeah. Which they would prefer white rice, so we have a little battle about that. Okay. So I'm going to have this tandoori salmon. And then pud? I think lemon cheesecake. Oh, do you like a cheesecake? A baked cheesecake or a non-baked cheesecake? Baked. Baked.

So like Jewish cheesecake? Yeah, very light. Yeah, a proper New York cheesecake. Yeah. Yeah, I like that too. So that's where I'd go, I think. And what are you drinking? I drink Pinot Grigio,

because this is Vic's wine of choice. Oh, really? Yeah. You're very accommodating. She's very easy to please. Is she allowed to have this meal with me, by the way? Yeah. We might not have the Tandoori salmon then.

I might have to think about something else for the middle course. But your team, before you came, said that you drink beer and wine. And I realise that I have no clue about beer. So do you drink an IPA or a lager? Oh, which one? IPA. Usually things like Doombar, but our local pub is called Pineapple.

Fantastic local pub. The Pineapple, that's like a rowdy one. No, it's not rowdy. The Pineapple, like the one that's in Canada. Kentish Town. Yeah, it's like a fun, not rowdy, but like the one that's in Camden Kentish Town yeah it's like a fun not rowdy but like

I've been to parties there I bet you you've been on a night when there's something going on at the O2 because it's a sort of stop off point on the way no I've been like

the pineapple's like a fun one it is I'm not saying it's not fun but it's more a sort of like when I was in Man Like Me

they were a Camden based band they'd always have like afters at the Pineapple. Interesting. Okay, so what do you drink there? They've got an IPA called Pineapple, which is really good. And who makes it?

Which brewery? I don't know, actually. Okay. See, I know nothing about beer. So the only time I drink a beer from IPA is if I play football and it's a hot day. You've kind of got to have a cold lager. Because it's just, I don't know, it's just one of those things that just goes with it. But wine is, white wine.

I drink red as well, but Vic doesn't drink red. How easy is it to switch off from trying to become the leader of this country? Really hard. the leader of this country? Really hard. And sometimes if I've got something going on, I find it almost impossible. And then that's really hard for Vic and the kids because it's obviously I'm distracted

and I'm only half listening, I'm not engaged. And it's a really bad thing, but it is very difficult. So if I'm doing media in the morning, for example, I did Laura Kunzberg this week. Was that fun for you? Is it ever fun? Well, you know, the interview was 25 minutes or something, but the amount of time...

So intense. So that means that the Saturday evening before is just completely distracted because I'm thinking about it. And then that is really frustrating for Vic and the kids because it's obvious that I'm sort of half detached from it. And even if I'm in the same room as them, I'm thinking about it. And then that is really frustrating for Vic and the kids, because it's obvious that I'm sort of half detached from it. And even if I'm in the same room as them, I'm, you know... And the kids joke and say to each other, he can't do two things at once,

when they're trying to have a conversation with me, when I'm trying to sort of look at something for the morning. We wondered how you manage, because we've got a majority quite right-wing press in this country. I mean, there's only two papers that I think are supportive of the Labour Party. How do you manage that? Well, the first thing is I read all the papers every day. We get them delivered.

So I go through... How long does that take? Well, I say read. I look at each one to see what's the lead story, what's the editorial, what are the sort of interesting bits and pieces of today, what are they saying about us, what are they saying about me. Do your kids get fed up when they're mean about you? Do you think they're quite protected to not know about that?

They're a mixture, a really good mixture of being protective, but also bringing me back down to earth the whole time. And I'll give you just two examples of that. So last year I won the Spectator Politician of the Year Award. So that's Spectator. And they gave me a framed certificate, which I then took home about 10 o'clock at night. And our boy is sitting on the settee with his feet up watching telly.

And I came in and I gave it to him and said, what do you think of this? And he looked at it. And then without really taking his eyes up watching telly. And I came in and I gave it to him and said, what do you think of this? And he looked at it. And then without really taking his eyes off the telly or his feet off the settee, he passed it back to me and said, how do you blag that then? Oh, my goodness. It was just fantastic.

And the other one was our daughter. This was a few years ago now. When she said, what time are you going to be home? And I said, oh, I'm going to be late tonight, I'm afraid. Why, what are you doing? I'm doing a fundraising dinner she said what's that I said well it's a dinner where people pay money to hear somebody speak and she said who's speaking and I said me and she said why would anyone pay to hear you speak and it was like a slow motion sort of car crash you could almost sense where she was going and now she'd do it to be cheeky um but then that was just this incredulity um it's a it's a

really fantastic leveler so they the moment i walk through the door i've got to be dad i've got to be dad and i love that that's great um and that's as it should be. How, do they ever go, dad, so-and-so says you're being a dick on this. Or like, so-and-so says that you really are being mean about this. You know, have they ever brought home politics? Because in the playground, people talk, parents talk, like. They, no, they don't. They don't, I mean, now, and this is nice. Lots of people come up and want a selfie and that sort of thing. And they get really fed up about that, particularly don't. They don't... I mean, now... And this is nice.

Lots of people come up and want a selfie and that sort of thing. And they get really fed up about that, particularly our boy. Because if I walk down the high street with him, he wants me to be with him, not constantly being stopped and having to talk to other people. And that's... Trying to find that space with them is quite hard sometimes. And there's no end of people who say,

I can see you're with your family so i won't i won't interfere and then sit down and have a sort of 20 minute conversation aren't you really yeah but that that does they get a bit fed up with that do you go to parties at downing street have you been invited i've never been invited to one of the downing street parties no you're kidding thankfully particularly the ones during covid otherwise i might not be sitting here no um i think all prime ministers make a habit of keeping leaders of the opposition well away from downing street yeah it's a bit mean yeah i mean i've obviously been there but not have you been inside yeah yeah and what's it like? It's a working...

I mean, it's a fantastic building. Iconic. What do you think of the recent decor? I haven't seen that decor. You haven't been close, yeah. Rishi might have changed it. Oh, Rishi probably has. Maybe he likes their style.

Yeah, I thought there was some story about it. It had been changed, but I don't know. What a waste. But anyway, I haven't been there. I would like to know where... You've talked about the pineapple. You've talked about Mr. Singh's. Are there any go-to spots that Sir Keir Starmer couldn't live without?

Any local restaurants that you absolutely adore? Yeah, there's an Italian called Rosella up the road, which is run by a friend of ours, and it's fantastic. And if we're not eating at home we'll sometimes go there on a Friday and again that's where Vic and her dad can get together and where her sister will come with her daughter so that's that's just a really locally based straightforward Italian restaurant that is probably our go-to if we're going to go out there's also a really good curry house up in Highgate. Where do you get your fish and chips? straightforward Italian restaurant that is probably our go-to if we're going to go out.

There's also a really good curry house up in Highgate. Where do you get your fish and chips? The nearest place now is just in Highgate. But fish and chips, if I'm getting fish and chips, I wouldn't normally go as a takeaway because Vic's not going to eat it. Our daughter's not going to eat it.

So that would be more when I'm on the road with the team if we're staying over in a hotel or something like that but good fish and chips, hard to beat would you like a bit Kim? I will do, yeah please, that looks fantastic I hope so just a small bit for me please like that?

I almost never eat desserts why? I don't know, I'm not particularly sweet toothed so? I don't know. I'm not particularly sweet-toothed. So I just don't. It's pavlova. Made with nectarines. I'll have that one and then you have a more beautiful one. No, I don't mind.

I'm fine. So I very rarely make dessert. I mean, because it's not really my thing. At some stage, I do want to try and get into... Everywhere that says baking is a really good thing to get into. I guess if you like cooking and it's kind of... You can switch off

when you're doing it. Yeah. I just find baking quite tedious. I'm really bad at it. Right. But why not? And you're a perfectionist

so you could master, you know, like... Yeah. I feel like it requires... I'll give it a go at some stage. ...attention to detail.

It's better that one. Oh, I honestly don't mind. I do. Before we let you go, is there one smell or scent that can take you back somewhere, happy or sad, or taste? I think the smell of cut grass takes me back to beginning to play grass football

and, you know, going onto a pitch that's been cut. So when I was probably... First time I went on a decent pitch was probably when I was about 10, playing in an under-11 league, where they cut the grass. And it's that smell of fresh grass that's just been cut. You do still get it at football grounds.

Not so much because now the grass is integrated a bit with other stuff. You don't get it at football grounds. Not so much because now the grass is sort of integrated a bit with other stuff. You don't get the same cut smell. But that takes me back to sort of cycling around Surrey and Kent. I played for Kent Boys League for a team there and just walking on the pitch. And I can't tell you how joyful walking onto a pitch is for me. It's just stepping onto the grass with a football. You could be the Arsenal mascot.

I'm not sure about that. We want to wish them luck. Are the conversations, you know, you have that person talking to you in the pub about your Stormzy selection. In the stands, are people asking you very different? Do you feel like in different spaces you are asked repeatedly a similar question? No, there's different things people ask. Can you enjoy the game or you just get hounded with questions? No, I can enjoy the game because round us, the people we're with there,

I've known for two or three rows in front. One of the guys in front that we've got to know through sitting there, his wife sends pecoras on the last game in within a top you know there's just thing so that it's a bit like the people I play football with they wouldn't bombard me with things about work um because they know I've been in those seats for I don't know how many years now so they knew me before I was even a politician and And so they wouldn't do that. But you do, I mean, you do get it at football. You know, people come up to you. People have ideas.

People have challenges. People tell you what they're passionate about. So you do, and people do notice what you've been doing. So occasionally they'll say, I saw you did this that week or that, you know, so it does cut through. But I mean, in the crowd, in the stand-up football, it's all about the football.

It's just you get, well, you know what this is like. You just get totally drawn in. You're all there sort of enduring and enjoying. To shout obscenities out. Not anymore. About the ref. Not anymore. Since you've been in the park.

Not anymore because somebody will take a picture of that and record me. But the moment, Not anymore. Since you've been in... Not anymore because somebody will take a picture of that and record me. But there's... I mean, the moment, if you're in the crowd, a goal is scored. It's so funny. And there's just this... All these people, you know, tens of thousands of people have been doing something else all week,

live in different places, don't all know each other, and at that moment, they come together and everybody gets up. It's like the choreography that is natural in that is absolutely incredible. And it's an amazing moment. OK, Keir, when's the general election going to be? I don't know. Do you think it'll be November? Next year.

This year? I don't know. I mean, from my point of view, the sooner the better. And I say that because people are really suffering now. They can't pay their bills, their mortgage is going through the roof. Every day this government's here, it just gets worse. So for the country's sake, we need it soon. My hunch is that it'll go at least into the early part of next year,

could go all the way through to the end of next year. Yeah, yeah. You know, it way through to the end of next year. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's up to the government when they go. They'll go at whatever point they think is best for them. And there's nothing we can do about that. That's just one of the prices of... If you lose an election, you lose the right to say when the next election is.

So... But we'll be ready whenever it is. Sukiya Starmer, thank you for joining us on Table Manners. It's been lovely to get to know you a little bit better thank you for having me, thank you for the food it was delicious but the company's been great thank you and best of luck with all those tuna sandwiches that you're about to enjoy Well, I really enjoyed speaking to Keir Starmer, his strong sense of public service and public duty,

and I hope he gets on and makes a good job of it. And I will still like to see pictures of him eating tandoori salmon his favourite dish wherever he goes in the country and around the world. Yeah so after we did this episode his team updated us with the very tandoori salmon that he eats and loves to eat at Mr Singh's in Glasgow the next time he was there, we got photographic evidence that that was his order and he looked very thrilled to be eating it. And a big smile. Thank you so much for listening to Second Helpings.

We'll be back next week with another episode from The Archive. Thank you.