Talkin' Baseball (MLB Podcast) - 157 | Long Gone Summer Director AJ Schnack + MLBPA Counterproposal

Episode Date: June 12, 2020

AJ Schnack is the director of the upcoming 30 for 30, "Long Gone Summer," about the 1998 home run chase between Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. Schnack sat down with us to discuss how he made the film, the most fun parts of the film, and the merits of inducting steroid guys into the Hall of Fame. Check out the premiere of the film on Sunday night (June 14) at 9 p.m. ET. The guys also discuss the latest counterproposal by the MLBPA that was given to the owners Tuesday night. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to Talking Baseball. We have an interview with the director of Long Gone Summer. Sosa, McGuire, Home Runs. Let's do it. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to Talking Baseball. My name's Jimmy. I got Jake with me who just had an upsetting burp.

Was that what that was? Yeah. Okay. Trev's here. BBD's here. We just wrapped up a nice interview with the director of Long Gone Summer. I'm saying that, right? For some reason, it doesn't flow off the tongue for me. Long gone summer.

I get it. AJ Schnack. And we all watched it. We got to see it. We'll throw it to it pretty quick. And then we'll come back and we'll do talk about maybe a documentary a little bit more. And also the newest proposal that the union just sent back to the players. But first, Trev, Jake.

How are you doing? Trev. What do you think about the, what should they know going into this interview? If you're my age. you know, in your low 30s, maybe into your upper 30s, it's going to bring you back to that time because, as I told AJ, this was right in the peak of my fandom. I remember it very vividly.

And they did a good job of showing just how outrageously popular these two guys were in the country at the time. This was dist transcended baseball. These guys were national celebrities to the highest level. So I thought that was cool. Yeah. AJ's cool. And yeah, man, it's funny because some of the issues now about getting kids into it.

I mean, you see they show some footage of kids in school. Like it's like the number one story in the United States. And now there's different stuff going on. But yeah, man, it's like you're saying, I think I was nine or ten. but I've always been a sports sicko, so, like, they throw on the sports center highlights, and, like, they showed a little bit. I think the Red Wings played the avalanche,

and I was like, oh, yeah, I know most of those guys, and then I kind of missed old sports center. So, but, yeah, AJ's cool, and it's funny that this was kind of his first sports one, and I think, like, does he have the sports itch now? Like, is that what he was saying at the end, that he had another sports thing lined up? I don't know.

I don't know. Just people had to be in their field, as we said. All right, Jake, just to put on your point, Do kids get wrapped up in pop culture the way it used to, or is the internet and how big everything is? Because, like you said, in this documentary, they go to, like a classroom and they ask every kid, who do you think is going to do it? And then are you going to watch? And every kid's totally tuned in. When I was in middle school, season two of American Idol was out.

Sure. And they split the cafeteria. Like, who's voting for Rubin Stuttered? Right. Who's voting for Clay Aiken? And we like chanted. Aiken, Aiken, Aitken, Aitin. Does that happen anymore?

I'm not a kid. What kind of schools you go to? I don't know. Oh, yeah. Lake Zurich Middle School, South. Yeah. Dude, American Idol was bigger than everything in those first two seasons. It was crazy big.

Season one, Kelly, love you girl. Yeah, I don't know. I still think pop culture can kick in and do some things. Probably not as significantly. I think, you know, with the Internet and access on your phones, you can access more stuff and there's just always content where this... Fifth grade, who wants to be a millionaire? We would, like, talk.

Like, did you see how long that guy went? Oh, they finally won? That was crazy. I wonder if that still happens. Okay. Why are you asking Jake? Is he... Wow.

I know he has the mental capacity of a fifth grader, but he's damn near 30. Well, Treve, you got kids, but they're not old enough to be wrapped up in anything. And he considers you an old man, so... I'm still kind of cool for my age, so I will say I probably have a better answer than Jake. I think music is kind of that now. I think about Old Town Road when that came out, every single person was singing that song. So it's still there. Have you ever heard our version of that song?

Let's go to the interview. Okay, here we go is the interview. We are joined by the producer of a long gone summer coming out on ESPN Sunday at 9. Did I get all that right? AJ Schnack. AJ, how you doing, brother? I'm good. How are you guys?

Doing well, man. We've been talking about this. We all got the screener. Thank you very much for sending it our way. We feel special, part of a like a super special club now. And I mean, I watched it last night. These guys watched it a couple days ago. And I'm excited for everyone to see this and for it to come out nationwide.

How long has it been in the works? Like how long has this project been going on? Yeah, first started talking to ESPN in 2017 about it. And started talking to Mark that's all and met up with Sammy, like in the, I think in June of 2018. So it took a little while. get all the pieces together to make it. Did a little shooting with Mark in 2018, spring training with the Padres.

And then fully went in to production last year in January. Yeah, and just finishing. So it'll be still hot when it lands on Sunday night. Yeah, that's interesting. You mentioned that you just finished because obviously quarantine and Corona did all. It would push everything back.

Was there any interviews that you that you, did you have shooting done by the time quarantine hit? Yeah, I mean, it kind of was timed in an interesting way. We thought, well, we were planning to premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival in April in New York. And I was in Chicago working with Jeff Tweedy on the score, and we heard that South by Southwest was going to cancel. And it kind of became clear in the days after that that Tribeca wasn't going to happen. And so we had been working so hard to get the film ready for the festival that we were like, oh, well, you know, who knows when it'll screen publicly, but we'll be on TV later this summer. So we have a little time.

We can take a break. It's always nice to step away from a film for a little bit and, you know, get some perspective. And then ESPN called a couple weeks later and said, you know, look, we're going to move the last dance up to April. And then we want to show your film in June. So suddenly then we were like on the fast track. again, but working in this completely unusual way where I don't see anyone. I just stay in this room all the time. It's funny you mentioned Jeff Tweedy because my very first note as I was watching was,

oh, Jeff Tweedy, awesome, lead singer of Wilco. Is he a baseball fan? How did he get involved? This is kind of just my curiosity, and then we'll move on to big picture baseball stuff. But how did Jeff Tweedy get involved? It was one of the things I mentioned to ESPN early on that I wanted to do is to get Jeff to do the score. I didn't know Jeff, but I grew up.

Edwardsville, Illinois, which is small Main Street USA town just outside of St. Louis. Jeff grew up in Belleville, which is a larger city, about two towns to the south of Edwardsville, and he's a couple years older than me or a year older than me. Big Uncle Tupelo fan, love Wilco, and went to see them all play. And I had heard that he was a baseball fan. Obviously, he had that experience I had growing up with the Whitey Ball Cardinals and now lives in Chicago. I know he goes to Cubs games. So I was like, well, if he'll do it, that would be amazing.

But I didn't know if it was possible. But he said yes. And I think his music's really some of the best music I've ever heard for a nonfiction film. I'm so excited for people to hear it. Yeah, it was awesome. It was good. What, I thought Trevor was going. Let's, we'll go.

Actually, no. Let's get to tell the people about you. a little bit. I mean, you mentioned you're from Illinois, and I was, we normally, I like doing silly introductions, but we're not friends yet. We're about to be fast friends. But, you know, I was going through, and you've done, to phrase it, how I would phrase it, you've done a ton of shit, man, and not all of it's necessarily baseball or sports related. How did this become the project? I mean, I know you said you're from that area of the country, but give us some of the story, and give us more, give us more AJ Schnack, man.

Yeah, I mean, I grew up a Cardinals fan. You know, like all the sports memories I have, the early sports memories are all around the Cardinals. Growing up watching baseball, my dad would say like, hey, you know, the game's on. Let's just get in the station wagon and drive around the cornfields of Southern Illinois, listen to Jack Buck and Mike Shannon. So that was a big part of growing up.

My ton of relatives in Chicago, most of whom were Cubs fans. And so that rivalry was something I was kind of baked in. It was a lot easier to be a Cardinal fan at that time because the Cubs sucked. But, you know, having an opportunity to dive back into this story was, you know, huge. I just spent about a decade after I did some music films. I did a film about the band name Ivy Giants. I did a film about Kurt Cobain. But then I did a bunch of films around American electoral politics.

And after the 2016 election, I just was like, okay, no, none of that anymore. I want to do something very different. So I'd never made a sports film before, even though I've always been a huge sports fan. And, you know, we had been talking to ESPN about doing something with them. And, you know, started talking about this. I kind of was like, well, there must be a reason why they haven't done a 30 for 30 on this subject. it just seems such a natural fit for that brand. And we just were like, well, let's see if we can get these guys to do it.

And that began that process of reaching out to them, talking to them, and getting them to want to be involved. This is like right at my wheelhouse when the summer of 98, I was 12 years old. So it was kind of like the peak of my baseball fandom. I remember driving home from a baseball tournament during that summer and pulling up next to a car and they were honking. And two kids in the back seat were holding up a sign that said like 58. You immediately knew what that meant. It was McGuire had just hit 58.

We turned the radio on. It's on. Everyone's talking about it. How were you able, because I think you guys did a good job of this in the documentary. How were you able to capture, like, for people that weren't alive, because a lot of people who were going to watch this weren't alive during that were too young to remember it, how were you able to capture like the, I mean, I don't even know what the enormity of the moment. Like a phenomenon that it was. It captured the entire nation. Like what went into capturing that for you in the film?

Yeah, that was hugely important to me because I think that that's one of the things that, you know, if you're right, if you were young or you were. weren't alive yet. It's like hard to imagine this story was as big as it was. And I think even people who lived through it may have forgotten like just like what it was like in the moment. I mean, they'd break into other television shows, you know, like regular entertainment programming to like let you know that they were up to bat. And, you know, I mean, we got a lot of the great footage we got, ABC did a hour long prime time special with Charlie Gibson, like hosting from Cooperstown. You know, Ted Copp was doing Nightline about it. It went beyond sports. It went beyond baseball. It was an American cultural moment. People were talking about these two guys and who was

going to break this record. And, you know, people who didn't care about baseball, maybe they never cared about baseball again, but they were interested in this monos versus mono contest. And that was something, you know, really, it was really important to me to, like, to show, because I think you have to kind of get back into that moment and into that summer and get rid of sort of the haze of the steroid era, which we, you know, now know is, it's all over the 90s before you can, like, you know, really start to talk about that story and what that story still means. I'm going to go back a little bit here because I do remember it, but I was too young to really understand specifics of it. In the documentary it talks about the media was calling for someone to break this record before the season

even started and that seems to me like crazy yeah was it just because mcguire hit 58 the year before like why was there all the sudden this media storyline baked in before the season even started like what led to that i think in part it was certainly that that both mcguire and griffy were in the high 50s in 97. You know, the fact that they had gotten there, you know, McGuire's storyline in particular, it was an expansion year. Bush Stadium had been reconfigured a couple of years earlier to make it more friendly to hitters.

You know, when I grew up, it was like purposely, you know, built for small ball. You know, it was hard to hit a ball out of Bush Stadium. So I think there were a few reasons why people thought it was that year. But yeah, it's almost in the same way that. people tuned in on September 8th, 1998, expecting that that was going to be the night that McGuire was going to break the record. People thought at the beginning of the season, spring break, even earlier than spring break, like, this is the year it's going to happen. Which is why I think in part, you know, like, you have to kind of look at both of these guys,

McGuire and Sosa. Like, I mean, Sosa didn't have the kind of pressure on him that McGuire had from day one. But that's, you know, the pressure is usually the thing that, like, makes these, these home run attempts fail because, you know, there's so much expectation. There's so many questions right away. And for McGuire to hit, then, you know, a home run in each of his first four games, that just made the pressure and the conversation, you know, I remember tuning in the sports center. And I think after the fourth game, he hit the fourth home run.

Somebody said something like, you know, he's on pace to hit 162. Yeah. I mean, it was like people really expected it to happen. Yeah, I think that part's wild. Maris, back in 1961, had the same thing at the beginning of the season. But he only at 39 the year before, but he had the season was longer. And they were brand new team, so the pitching quality was lessened. But, you know, at the beginning of the season, it was the same thing.

And I thought you got, you captured the interest that grew, what Trevor's talking about really well when you just showed, you know, the Marlins had zero fans. Yes. But when McGuire came, they sold out every game. And like that. And also my little brother, who wasn't even born yet, he was like blown away a little bit that they had Sosa and McGuire on the scoreboard with the home run totals. Those two pieces of information, I think, are just like, okay, this was huge.

This was crazy. So I thought those were really well done. I want to ask about, and you said this, the film kind of shows the feeling at the time, right, before the steroid error weighed everyone down. Because the Sammy Sosa and the Mark McGuire you see from the old footage, and even like the Maris guys, they're way different than McGuire and Sosa in their interviews because they've been weighed down and almost like it feels touchy. it feels like McGuire still carries the weight of the stress and everything. So when you're approaching these three, the three I'm interested in it is obviously Sosa McGuire, but even Roger Maris's son, who I think they weren't excited then and then after steroids, still not excited.

How touchy was it to be like, do you want to, were they open to it? Were they hesitant? Well, you know, I think that was part of spending as much time as possible with them in advance before we brought the cameras in, you know, just to say like, look, this is what I want to do. This is the film I want to make. I always say as a documentary filmmaker, like, you know, you ask someone to make a story about their life.

That's a lot to ask. You know, that's a really big ask, especially if they don't know you. Like, neither of these guys know me. They don't know my story. I don't think, I don't know if they've ever seen any of my work. You know, it's a lot, you know, to walk in and say like, hey, give me your trust. on this. But I'll say that, you know, once we got in the room with both of them, I felt like

they came to play, you know, and McGuire, like, he, in 25 minutes, he was telling me stuff. I had done a ton of research. He was telling me stuff I had never heard before. And I confirmed later, talking to, like, Larusa and others, you know, like, these were stories that they didn't know, you know, that they had never heard. So Mark really did come in there just to say like, okay, this is it. We're going to tell this story. And, you know, I was really happy with Sammy. Like, you know, he wasn't, you know, he wasn't just the, like the happy guy that you saw in 1998.

I mean, he was trying to, he was taking some ownership over the fact that he didn't just have that one good year or, you know, four good years. He was the marquee player for the Cubs before 98. He was doing stuff, 30-30 player. He was a top home run hitter in the National League. I think we forget about. So, you know, to have him kind of come in there and go, like, no, I've got a legacy, and I'm going to wrap it hard, I thought it was great. So, yeah, it was, I didn't know how the interviews were going to go when I sat down.

You know, you hope you've done all the work you need to do. But I was really happy afterwards that they were open. you know, in the conversation as I would want them to be. And I think one of the more impactful scenes when you're going through the timeline and you're starting to see the weight of the world on McGuire and you see Sosa, you know, kind of leaning into it. Sammy's like, I've been waiting for this, you know. And then they have that joint press conference and, you know,

you just see a different Mark McGuire than you've seen for the past couple months because he's like, there's someone else going through this. and this guy kind of likes it. Like, it was a little bizarre. I was going to ask, was it on your, or, I haven't made a documentary. Was it, yet? Yes. Was it on your dream?

Did you want to get them in the same room together to kind of see if they could do that? Or, and what else was kind of on your dream board when you started this that maybe you were trying to do that couldn't come together? because I don't know, when that scene came on and those two guys are in the same room, you're just like, you felt good for Big Mac for like the first time in it because he looked relieved. Yeah, well, when we started talking about this, it was 2017 and the home run Chase's 20th anniversary was going to be coming up, you know, the next year. So I thought, well, maybe there's going to be some place where these two guys are together, you know, like that there's a reason for them to,

be in the same room. I kind of didn't want to do it myself. Um, every time I thought about how I would do it, it just felt really stagey in my head. So I thought like, well, if it happens for some other reason and then we get like the other footage, like if they do an interview, but we're getting the footage of them getting miced up and like seeing each other for the first time, that would all be great. But that, you know, just that never happened. And so then it was just, I kind of felt like, I wanted to hear them each individually to see if their perspectives were the same, you know, if they had different memories, different experiences.

And yeah, I mean, I think that one of the interesting things is so many people talk about that, that they felt like that McGuire's whole demeanor changed, you know, when he and Sammy were together and he would see like Sammy having like the time of his life, basically. But I think also you have to remember that for Mark, he always really set, you know, 50 home runs by September 1st. Like, I'm not going to even deal with this until we get to that point. And by the time, you know, he and Sammy are playing in Chicago, you know, they're right there. They're 47. You know, they're almost there.

And then by the time, you know, they're back together in St. Louis, you know, it's clear that this is going to happen. It may not happen during this series, but, you know, Mark's at 60 and, you know, he's going to get there. And so I think that that made it a little bit lighter for him for a moment because he really felt like he was going to set this record. Of course, then it like picks up to a different thing because he doesn't know if he's going to have the record at the end of the season. And when he, you know, he talked about that, you know, in terms of just the realization of like, oh, wait, this isn't over. Like, you know, if it would have been, if no one's chasing him, he might have taken a bunch of days off, you know, or just played, like, just come in and it would be a pinch hitter. So to, like, rest, they weren't going to the playoffs. You know, like, it had been a hard season.

But he had to keep going. And not just for the fans, but, you know, like, if you wanted that record at the end of the season, he had to keep playing. That was one of my favorite parts of the whole chase was at the end when Sammy finally went ahead of him. And here's Mark saying, I just put everything. my heart and soul into this. I broke the record, but so did this other guy. They had a ceremony. And I got to, he's like, I can't be a footnote.

I got to be the guy. You know, and that was to see him like come back and then just go on a tear. Like, you know, like putting, I'm trying to put myself in his shoes in that moment. You break a record. Then all of a sudden you have that realization. I got it, like you said, I got to keep going. And then he does. And then he tries to sit out the last game.

and the Roos is like, no, and then hits two more. Like, what a feeling that must have been just like, boom, boom, boom. Yeah, I mean, some of my favorite footage in the film is, is Mark realizing that Sammy has gone ahead of him on that Friday night last weekend. I'd never seen that. Yeah. I'd never seen that shot before. And it was incredible because you can see him do like a triple take.

Yeah. What? What? And then he just bends down. and he goes, okay, got to keep going. I mean, I've never seen that shot. It was awesome. I've been known as a, I've called myself.

I'm a self-proclaimed baseball snob. Love the best highlights, love all the best players. That's who I am as a baseball fan. So when I look back at the record-breaking home run, all I want is for that to be homer number 43. I wanted a majestic homer. Yeah. To break it so we could see him trot around the bases.

I mean, he missed first base, which is an iconic shot. Like, it's really a steroid single. I just saying, I wish it would have been a moonshot. And I think he says the same thing. Yeah, no, he wishes it was my shortest homer. Oh, yeah, no, he wishes it was like an upper decker. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, who knows what have happened to the ball.

But, yeah, he definitely wishes. That's true. He definitely wishes that it had been like one of those, like, crazy, crazy shots of his. Yeah. Because 90% of them were that. Yeah. The moon shot no doubters. And then here he is trying to leg out a double and misinference. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, there's very few of his own runs that are just over the wall. You know, I mean, there's, it's, you know, even in, even in Bush

stadium, like, you know, the hitting in the upper deck and the outfield is, is insane. Yes. truly. What's, um, I want to talk about Sammy a little bit because it's kind of funny that, like, he is a part of the story and he is. I mean, it's, it's kind of the whole, it's the whole part of this, like, it was on Big Mac the whole time. I wonder, like, when you're talking to Sammy and he gives off the positive vibes like you're saying, I mean, and he wins the MVP that season, and I think that's got to be a funny moment for a lot of people that don't really know the story.

Wait, you know, the Cubs going to the playoffs, which, like, you're men. being a Cubs fan or Cubs fans at that time. You know, they're not the Cubs team that won the championship a few years ago. Like the Cubs were curse of the billy goat and all that. Do you think there's a world where Sammy, it's almost, what's the rising tides raises all ships or things? Like, do you think Sammy thinks that doing it that year with Big Mac kind of made it bigger? Or do you think there's a world where Sammy kind of wishes he was alone and, uh, Maybe he doesn't break Big Mac 70, like they're separate entities, but it would have been, like Sammy Sosa, a lot of years would have had his own season.

Like Sammy Sosa alone, and he kind of didn't get that, but I don't know his vibe. I think, you know, the fact of how he broke into that race, I mean, the 20 home runs in June is still a record. You know, will be a record for a while. Well, maybe not. I don't know. The ball is flying out. but you know I think that for him I never got the impression that he didn't have anything but just real joy over the fact that he got to do it with Mark that like he just thought that that was

one of the things that made it great you know I think he certainly wants people to remember that it wasn't just that year you know I mean he's the only guy who's you know hit 60 or more three times. You know, so I think he would, he would like people to see the totality of his career, but I think part of the real joy for him of about 98 was the fact that they were in it together. And, you know, in the film, it's, you know, I always described it, I described it to Sammy, you know, I was like, I kind of want people to forget that you're part of the story and to really introduce you in June because then you're just like best supporting actor. Like, here you come and you come in like a house of fire, which is how it happened at the time.

Nobody's thinking about you being part of this race. It's going to be junior. So to have him come in and do what he did in June and suddenly be like, no, I'm part of this race too. That to me was kind of the plan all along. So, yeah, I mean, it's his story and him being part of the story as part of what makes it great. If it's McGuire and Jr. are like battling. Mariners aren't coming to Bush Stadium in September. You know, I mean, we don't have those moments.

And certainly the narrative arc of the Cubs in 98 is a better narrative than the Cardinals. I mean, you know, to start to come out of the 97 season, which started so horribly, to have Harry Carey die, to have Kerry would have a 20 strikeout game. And then they go to the playoffs. Yeah, I mean, it's a great storyline. I think that, and you like you said, you want people to forget about Sammy and remember him. you kind of just described me because I knew Sammy was part of it. I know that, you know, the Congress hearings and the steroid stuff and he'd fallen out of favor. I think everyone who watches this documentary is going to re-fall in love with Sammy Sosa and remember how vibrant.

And, his opening line in the documentary kind is like, I'm more charismatic than McIre. And I kind of laughed at it. And then the next scenes play out, and you're like, oh, you're definitely more charismatic. He was a ball of fun, and now he wants the Cubs to be back in good graces. I mean, I think that this movie is going to put in a third stage of Sammy's career and relationship with the Cubs. I think you're going to introduce a lot of younger fans who like that kind of player, who like the vibrant, showy, fun, laughing player. He'll fall in love with Sammy Sousa.

He'll be a star right now. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think people, you know, know, we touch on it a little bit. I think people have forgotten, you know, especially coming out of the last dance, after Jordan left Chicago, you know, Sammy was it. I mean, like, Sammy was the hugest thing going. I mean, there's a photo of Sammy and Jordan in the film. What you don't see is that Jordan's wearing a Sammy jersey. You know, I mean, this is, this, this was huge

in Chicago. Sammy was the biggest thing going. He was, he was the marquee player for the team, before 98, but after 98, he was, you know, a nuclear explosion of, you know, publicity and fan attraction. So, yeah, I agree. I hope that, you know, I think it's odd that Sammy's relationship with the Cubs is what it is, and it seems like it doesn't have to be that way. People are making it more complicated than it is, and hopefully that'll change. Behind the scenes question real quick Were you doing the interviewing Or was it a did you have multiple team members

When with Sammy Sosa Whose voice is it we hear that ask the questions? That's me. Yeah, I did all the interviews Okay, so When you ask the question We don't have to talk about the answer anything Everyone can go watch it and find out But when you asked Sammy about steroids

Was that like Like in your head I'm thinking if that was me I'd be like okay Like you're like hyping myself Gotta do it got to do it Just get it out there Or was that easy?

because it is like a moment. Well, we, you know, we were kind of, there was a path of the questioning that was taking us there. You know, I could see that he was getting, I mean, you can see it in the film. He's a little bit more tense. Like he knows what I'm asking him.

And, you know, he's ready to give his answer. But yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, it's, you're asking someone like about the stuff that is not that fun to talk about. Same with Mark. But, you know, I told them, them both in advance, we were going to do it. You know, it was part of the story,

even though the bulk of the film was going to be getting viewers back into that season. And, yeah, I wouldn't say it wasn't the most fun. I'm not one of those filmmakers who goes like, I can't wait to get this guy in and 60 minutes him and just like, you know, just make him look like an idiot. So, yeah, to like, you know, deal with all those things aren't the most fun parts of the interview for me and probably for them. But I appreciated the fact that they both wanted to talk honestly about it.

Yeah, so obviously steroids are part of the documentary. We'll let people watch. So something that wasn't touched a ton on was Hall of Fame case. And that's directly linked, obviously, to steroid usage. So I want to bring the tone of the show down because that's what I do. I got to ask the grim question of you. Do you believe Sammy, who has over 600 home runs, clearly a case for the Hall of Fame, Mark McGuire, case for the Hall of Fame, do you believe they should be inducted into

the National Baseball Hall of Fame? Yes, I do. And I think Bond should as well. I think that we need to look at the players in the era that they played and how they played against other players. We have no idea how many people were using steroids. We don't know who was, who wasn't. baseball had not done the job of telling people what the rules were and they weren't enforcing them,

even if they had told them. So, you know, if you want to say, like, you know, there's an era where we're going to designate, like, that these people are from a specific era in time, I guess, whatever, fine. You know, you want to do that with amphetamines and greenies? Do you want to do that with, like, not letting players of other races? just participate. Do you want to do it with the ball being tighter so that the balls fly farther? There's always something. There's always a reason to like put an asterisk or a notation. But yeah, Sammy obviously has the numbers. It's pretty clear. I think Mark for what he did for the

game, he had a lot of injuries. So, you know, I think just from a numbers case over the course of his career, it might be a tougher call in terms of that, but clearly in terms of what he did for the game, I don't think it's kind of a no-brainer. And I think that, you know, the it's, it's, I think it's a little, I don't know what the exact word is, it's not hypocritical, but I just, you know, to pretend that we all had like the hindsight or the foresight at the time to know what was going on. and over now that we know, like, we're going to, like, you know, judge it in a completely different way. And that was one of the reasons why I wanted to get back and, like, show what that season was like,

because, you know, it's, it's like, it was bigger than baseball. It was something that just took everyone by storm. And I think we have to acknowledge that. Even if these guys, you know, I guess so says a couple years left of eligibility, you know, Mark would have to get in through the Veterans Committee. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, they should be. you've really you softened my position

on that you really have because I am known as one of the cleanest players in the game so I have a hard line against steroid use but when you go back and kind of the way you guys framed it in the movie was this was obviously a

rampant thing in that era and it wasn't like a lot of these guys were sneaking around doing anything they were just kind of taking stuff. And I think, like, in my career, I'm like, dude, like, there's obviously these supplements that are team-given. Like, what if one day we just decide that whatever I took, which was completely fine at the time, even given to me by a team, what if we just

happened to decide that was considered a performance netting drug? Like, what would I think about that? It is what happened to them. So, like, me going back and watching this, I'm like, dude, like, cut these guys a break, you know? Like, the guys now that are getting caught, don't have that much sympathy for you. There's clear-cut rules about what you can and can't do now. There wasn't that it was rampant throughout the league. And really, like I said, you really softened my position on it. Well, you know, I was a couple of weeks ago, I live in Los Angeles. I was driving around Griffith Park, our big city park, and there are all these signs up, you know, these huge traffic signs saying, you know, masks required, you know, face coverings mandatory. And, you know, you drive along.

And there's like, I don't know, 30, 40% of the people aren't wearing masks and there's like park rangers and cops like looking at them, nobody's doing anything. And I'm like, that was baseball steroid policy, minus the fact that there was no big traffic sign. Yeah, not even the sign. No sign. So, you know, if they weren't testing, there were no penalties. The only thing that existed was a memo from the commissioner that the one was sort of reopted, like toothless memo. you know, which I think a lot of players didn't even know existed. And one of the reasons why-

Memos don't mean anything. Yeah, and one of the things we wanted to like spend time on in the film, you mentioned all the supplements, you know, I mean, like, people were taking a lot of stuff, you know, and it was not something that anyone was ashamed of. You know, it was like, it's a hard season. You're getting through. You're going to do whatever you can to stay healthy,

to like make it through to the end. And I think that people have sort of forgotten that, that that was just part of what the game was in the 90s and that nobody was trying to enforce anything. Yeah. And I think it's really good that you say, like you wanted to view it for the lens. Like Shelby Foote, a great historian,

he always says history should be told from the perspective of the time and not just past judgment from now and retell it in the way that we think about it now. It's like you have to talk about this as it was being talked about at the time. And I think that's what you guys did a good job and clearly was your goal, is the hysteria and the craziness and like the fact that these dudes were playing in the same series against each other and in one game.

So, so goes ahead and then McGuire ties him and then McGuire goes ahead. Like anyone who bought a ticket to that game, I mean, got 10 times what they paid in value of entertainment. Like just an amazing error for baseball in a great summer. So I think it's, I think it was, it's a crazy, crazy story. Like almost you wouldn't believe it. Yeah, I mean, the magical things that happen, the coincidences, I mean, Mark specifically talks about 61st home run on his dad's 61st birthday. You know, he hits the, his record-breaking home run in the same inning that Maris hit his. You know, there's a few other things like that, Cubs being in Bush Stadium.

It's like it was, it was almost written to be the story that it was. Yeah. And I think when you mentioned, when Trevor's talking about the story, Deroid stuff. He's just trying to get across the fact that it makes Derek Cheater's numbers that much more impressive. But we can circle back on that another time. He's a big Derek Cheater guy. I want to ask you, what was the most fun for you? And I know that's a loaded question. And I mean, I'll be honest. I mean, 95% you, 5% missing baseball. There's a bunch of moments. I just got chills. I mean, the Jack Buck moment is, I mean, if you're a baseball, hardcore person that that hits you.

the 61 on 61. But even like I was just laughing in my head a second ago, the Steve Traxel interview was cracking me up because he's got that kind of hardo pitcher's edge up. And it's like, dude, I got bad news for you, bro. This ain't about you. So I don't know. What was just the most fun about all this for you?

I mean, you mentioned Traxel. And I just, I actually was just talking to somebody about the fact of him having to stand on the mound for like 10, 15 minutes, just watching the celebration. It's a bad time. So painful. Traxel was rooting for Sosa to win it, you know, the season ends so much more after that. Because I was blown away that they did that much for the 60 second home run.

And then two weeks later, Sammy Sosa has the lead. And there was no fanfare. And imagine if Sammy Sosa won and then like that whole charade would be so embarrassing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that in terms of the physical putting the film together, like that part of actually my editor who had worked with last year he went on a paternity leave in January and I so I cut together the like the lead up to 61 you know that Miami series where he hits to one night to the

next night going into hitting 60 61 62 and working with Jeff's music and the archive and Jack Buck's voice and and knowing that we had all of the players in the film. We had Traxel, we had LaRousseau, we had Matt McGuire, we had Roger Maris Jr., you know, had Chip Carey, you know, we had Mike Shannon, we had all the, all the people who were there and who it meant a lot to. Putting that together was a really big, big thrill. But I think in terms of, you know, making the film itself, I had a, I just want to shout out, my creative team was so great. And, you know, my DP Kamal Balal and Adam Ben, our cinemat, photographer and Joel Hernandez, our sound guy and Will Lennon, a producer who was traveling with me on the road,

we just had the best time. I mean, like, we went to baseball games. You know, we were going city to city to get all of our interviews and never laughed so hard with the crew before. It was just, it was such a joy to make it even more so now looking back when we're not able to be in these spaces together, to know that we had that experience. The making of the film was, you know, was such a joy. And I hope that some of that comes through in terms of when people watch it on Sunday. Yeah, that's awesome here. And before we let you go, do you have the next project in the works?

Are you ready? Can I pitch you? Can I pitch you? Can I pitch you? Can I pitch you your next project? I have something awesome. It's a story of a decidedly average big leaguer named Trevor Plouf, who finds himself post-career doing a dumb podcast with two essentially village idiots.

Pretty good story. I like it. Yeah, it's good story. We have the rights to it, though, Tref. Sorry. Yeah. All right. Yeah, no, we were about to try to get started on something.

And then this, the pandemic just kind of made it all like put on indefinite hold because the story was sort of contingent on the subjects being out in the world and doing stuff. So, you know, hopefully that will be in the fall. That'll be a place we can get back to again. But for now, I mean, this has been, this has been night and day all the time. Just trying to get the film finished. And, yeah, I'm excited to finally be at this point. Awesome.

Cool. Well, thank you very much for joining us, man. We enjoyed watching it. And hopefully everyone gets a kick out of it. I'm sure everyone that does will. Yeah, cool. Great. Great to see you guys.

Thanks. All right. Thanks, man. Thanks, brother. And there you have it. Long gone summer. Go watch it. Sunday night, Jake?

Sunday night. Sunday night, everyone go check it out. Trev, did he really change your mind on the steroid guys? He did. You guys know I feel. You know, I don't like it in the game. I don't. You know, I just, it did because it really made me see just how rampant it was. And I've heard that, obviously, but to put it right in front of my face.

And really, like I said, these guys just weren't doing anything secretive at all. And it just put myself in their shoes. and I'm like, holy crap, like, maybe I need this off of my stance. It was in their locker. Yes. He was asked about it in the middle of the home run chase and said, yeah, I'm doing Andrew or whatever it's called. Of course, yeah.

I mean, so like, for MLB to not change the rules or put a stop to it, they couldn't, they could have after that season, but then it would have really made it look. So I'm with you. But like A-Rod, these guys like, about. later on when there was firm rules and they were going hard against them. That's different. But yeah, it kind of changed my mind because it was known. No one cared.

They cared for like a week. It's nuts. Sammy's got the corked back too, which is kind of a weird thing. You know, maybe that was an accident. Maybe it wasn't. But yeah, no, it's awesome to just go back to that time period when, A, there was any sports, B, how impactful it was and how day-to-day it was and how it really ran things. Miss it, man.

Miss it, man. A couple things I wanted to, one thing I want to ask is, A, if the balls ever came up, and maybe we'll have to reach out to Dr. Meredith Wills, because Trevor, like, you hinted at, you know, they were hype in this home run thing before the season and coming off the strike and wonder if baseball put a little extra in the balls. I don't know. And the other thing that I drove home to the Johnboy Media kids today, Big Baby David and Luke,

and you guys mentioned this. Like, McGuire doesn't have much of a personality. He's a ball player. That was actually my biggest takeaway, is that McGuire is a dud personality. But I think there's just a weird dynamic that, like, Big Mac wanted to be a pitcher. He went to USC to be a pitcher. He hit home run, so they made him a home run hitter.

And then they interviewed him later, and he's like, I don't know. I think I was put on this earth to, like, home runs. And he's the hitting coach or a hitting instructor for the Padres. And Treve, I looked up his baseball reference. Big Mac in his playing days, he made 70 plus mill. And to be a hitting coach and do the 250 day grind, I mean, you got to be a baseball sicko and that's like who Big Mac is. They opened up his like story and he was like, yeah, I got divorced in 89. anyone that was going to get in my way of just being a baseball player,

I couldn't have time for it. It's like, Jesus, dude. Baseball player? Yeah, but not, it was not an endearing sense. There's guys out there that, like, DJ Lemay here, like, just no personality but just plays baseball. I was not endeared to McGuire from this doc. I came away kind of thinking less of him. I think, Jake, that he is a diehard baseball guy, obviously.

So a hitting coach is one of the most thankless jobs you can have in the game of baseball. So yeah, like you said, to make all the money that he's made and then to go back and do it, clearly he has a love for the game. And I want to counter you, Jim, I don't think he was a dud. Like if you go back, I mean, the Bash Brothers, that's not a dud. Like Mark rocking like his like local surf shop hat, sleeveless shirt post game. Like the guy was cool, but he is. has been beat down, Jim. Like the steroid thing,

but yeah, yeah, Tell has killed him. But even his interviews back in 98, maybe, but maybe he was getting beat down then too. And maybe when he's not on camera, he's totally fine,

but just whatever that in camera and interviews, every answer was like, I can't wait to go to heaven to see Roger Maris and Babe Ruth. And like Sammy Sosa even kind of mocks him like right away. Like, shut up, dude. It ain't that serious. And that's,

that's kind of the whole vibe of the whole video. McGuire was like wound tight as fuck and Sammy Sosa was just laughing. I love Sammy Sosa now. I think they did a good job showing like the pressure really was on Mark that year. And it showed man. Like I kind of like I think now like what kind of person would Mark McGuire be in the game of baseball if he didn't break the record? Like if he just and didn't get accused of steroids, like he'd be next to Frank Thomas on what? whatever network they're on. I don't know, whatever they're doing.

I think he'd be one of those guys. He'd be involved in the game in some fashion. But because of all this stuff that he's had to deal with, self-imposed, obviously. But it's beat him down. You can just tell it wears on him. Did you like his attack on launch angle? I just, he, I don't know, man. I don't know what he was trying to say on it. Because, again, like, launch angle is not a thing. It's like, it's been a thing forever. It's just what angle the ball comes off your bat. Like, it's not like some few thing made up.

He basically ends it by saying, yeah, I took the steroids, but I could hit home runs no matter what, and I didn't even need launch angle. But, dude, you needed the steroids. It's like it's such a weird backwards brain to quote. It's, I don't, that's like my pet peeve about older guys talking about baseball and not trying to dive in and stay current with what's going on. I mean, it's not a big deal to talk about launch angle. Guys are afraid of that word. They're afraid of spin rate. And it's stupid.

It's just a way to describe something that happens on the field. So don't get me started on that whole thing. Like that makes me upset. But, yeah, like. Trev. If he, let me say this. If he wasn't teaching that stuff with the Padres, then he was probably axed quick because of it.

No, know what those, and we'll start spinning this, a little more positivivo. Know what both those guys had, Trev, that I know you love. And you know, it's the sign of a true power header. That apo juice, baby. Oh, my God. I mean, they were flicking it to right center, and it was awesome, and then the ones they were cranking were just silly.

Yeah, those guys, when you look at them in a baseball uniform, you're like, whoa. Like, Mark McGuire was a cartoon character. He didn't make sense, and it's like steroids, but he's got... What are their heights? Because Sammy, to me, he would seem more, like, compact and look like he could actually be that size. McGuire is taller, I think. Yeah. And a guy that tall and that freaking big shouldn't be able to move that way.

McGuire's 6-5, Sammy Sosa, 6'5. Yeah, seeing Mark a guy that's, I mean, 6-5, you look at the guys who are 6-5 in the game right now. Like, they can't put on weight like that and move like that. Like, even Aaron Judge. He's a gazelle. Yeah, he's kind of a freak. It might be a bad example. But I want to know what his weight is compared to Mark will.

Well, there's something crazy there because, I mean, when you see Judge connect into one, it's kind of this long, majestic swing. Big Mac doesn't have that. He's got like a tight, compact swing just in this like offensive lineman body. And it's, I mean, the Big Mac swing out of that body was one of my favorite parts of the documentary, which is kind of- boy hitting, right? Like, he looks like, like Judge looks smooth with it and it looks athletic. Like, McGuire looks like you,

they show the pitcher's vantage point. And I'm thinking, like, where is this guy supposed to go? He leans over the plate. He covers the entire thing. Where are you supposed to pitch this? McGuire looks like a cartoon character or like the fat kid in a middle school that you know is going to lose his ability once, like,

kids grow, but he didn't. All right. I have something else to tell you, but I'll say it off air because this is more mean about Mac. Okay. I want me to whisper it? No. The documentary is good.

I lost, I don't, Mark McGuire doesn't do much for me, is what I found out. Sammy Sosa does a whole lot. And I don't think he wants to. I like both. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. It's fine. Yeah.

Okay. Well, let's talk about this proposal real quick. Player proposal. The union responded with a 89 game proposal at full pro rated. So, now gone from one full. 14 to 50 to 89. Neither team's really budging. Oh, this did make a monetary difference.

Is this the, like, the owners keep... This was the first offer in good faith, IMO. Yeah, maybe, yeah. I mean, because all of the owner's offers have been the same monetary breakdown. This offer does drop the amount of money the owners would spend compared to the 114 offer. It's like, was it a couple hundred million less?

Something. So I'll wait. You want me to weigh in on it? Yeah. Always. You got any tidbits? Is that what we're doing on the pod? You got any tidbits?

You want any tidbits? I do have some tidbits. Okay. What are they? Oh, I thought you were going to play the music. I can't hear it. All right, hold on, hold on. Hold on.

I don't care if you play the music or not. Because I can't hear it anyway. Hate that mentality. The music has been, was messed up, the last time I played it. Jake and I could hear it in our headphones, but it wasn't going to the soundboard. Okay, I'm doing this. Nice. But I will get the music, the music's awesome. That's the best ever. But three, two, one, if this doesn't work, then we'll just do the music and post. Didn't work. Wait, hold on. Music's going to go right here. Lay him on us.

I was privy to a response to the proposal on the owner's side. Yep. It wasn't great. Say it. And I think everyone kind of knows that's the direction of the owner's lean. But how on earth is that a concession was the response. Less money. And it was 48 games.

Here we come. Well, it was definitely a concession. Maybe not a lot, but it was a concession. So I don't know. I mean, look, obviously we're playing hardball. We've been playing hardball. We've been playing no ball, whatever you want to call it. I feel like we should have probably stepped in and spearheaded these negotiations.

We could have been the liaison. We probably would have got a deal done by now. But since we're not there, you know, we just have to. let these guys work it out themselves. And to me, that doesn't bring much optimism. I know a lot of people are saying we're getting closer. We're getting closer. I don't know if we are.

We're definitely not. I don't think we're getting closer to anything. We're getting closer to 48 games. If 48 games happens, I'm telling you, man. I can't get excited about that. I know that I'm going to watch. But don't tell me. that 48 games is this season.

I'm not going to have it. I'm not going to have 48 games. And I know that... Wait, Trev, were you on the same page? Will you on the same page of us? Because I remember having a conversation like three months ago where Jake and I were saying if it's a six-week, 48 game, less than... Jake said if it's less than 70, we don't even want it to be...

It's going to be hard to consider it a World Series. If it's more than 70, shake your hands. I thought you were giving us shit. Am I wrong? I don't remember my take. Okay. But, you know, this is really, I mean, a lot of opinions have been changed over the last two months in the way all this shit has been handled. So I don't remember what my take is then.

I think my, I think what I said was if a legitimate team, like kind of like one of the favorites wins it, people won't say anything about it. If some random team gets in there because they had a hot month and they cause havoc in a playoffs, which we know in baseball especially is a huge possibility. the team that gets hot at the right time is going to win the World Series. We know that. Look at the... Twins year. So, my thinking now is 40 games is a joke.

Okay. Will I still consider it a World Series champion? I probably still... Well, I guess I can't say yes. If I'm saying that if a certain team wins the World Series that I can consider it a legitimate

and if another team wins it, I can't consider it legitimate, then that means no, I don't consider it legitimate. That's deductive reasoning. That's a big word or term that I'm not sure I use correctly, but I think I did. The players countered quickly. Lil Poppy was pretty close to the play-by-play of what actually happened. This next one is going to tell me the story,

and I feel like maybe that's been said before. Maybe it hasn't. But like I said, this felt like the first offer in good faith. We were never going to get the 114 games. The MLB owners have essentially given the same offer three different ways. Whatever the MLB comes back with and in what sort of timely fashion, because the player's answered in less than 48 hours. I have a tidbit for you on that end then, if you want to know.

That's time for Trevor's tidbits. We need an abridged version. You know, we're, this, unfortunately this episode is not going to come out for a couple days. Perfect. So we're, let's just say it, we're recording this on Wednesday. And I know that they are on a call today.

Ooh, cool. So. If it goes to a 48 game, oh, so, yeah. I thought that was a tidbit. No, that's it. So, I mean, like, they're hastily at least meeting, talking. Not sure if that means they're going to get an offer. They're going to offer, you know, we broke it down.

Jake read a tweet that now I'm giving Jake credit for it, but he read a tweet saying the first offer was a $20 bill. The second offer was two tens. The third was a 10 and two fives. This offer is going to be all fives. All right. Let's do this because it is Wednesday. So if we do hit it, it'll be fun. I want to hear your guys proposal prediction.

I think that the MLB, J. just comes out with another 33% offer. They might even word it the same. They might say, no, this is our offer. Like, that's their proposal. Actually, no. That's, our calendar is no. No, this is still our offer.

And see previous proposal. Yeah. Okay. Jakey boy. MLB's next proposal will be, they're going to pussyfoot it and go. Bag of bugs. 61 games pro-rated.

If they do that, I think we do that. I don't think they're going to do that. I think they'll even play, like, the 61 games as an important baseball number. We know we'll lose money on it, but 61 means something to people. Because that would, the owners, if they don't show good faith here, I think, like, they're done. Like, like, the perception has been kind of bad for them the whole time. If they don't come back with something improved from their three of the same.

offers. You think people might TP stadiums? They're done. They're just done. Yeah, I think getting the 60 to 65 games at this point, we're talking full pro rata. Pro rata. It's Latin, look it up. Mrata, follow her on Instagram. If they get to 60 to 65, I think it's a win for MLB. Or excuse me, for the players. Yeah, I think they'll just accept that. But my prediction on this I think it might be a cold opening. We're going to go ahead and do the 48 full pro-rated. It's looking that way.

You agree with me. That's what I said. The only thing is... I don't think they'll go back to their last proposal. I think they'll just say, okay, clearly... Well, that's what I mean. That's what I mean. I think MLB will say, oh, you guys don't get it.

We're not doing this anymore. It's 48 games. What's a third of the season? 162 divided by 3 is 40. No, they can do that. No, 40. 54. That's my prediction.

54 games full pro-rated. Cool. That's the counter. Here are my final questions for you. Is this going to end with like a lawsuit? Because of the whole good faith thing and 48 games. everything like that because that seems to be what's going to happen but I'm not familiar enough with everything. And I forget my second question. So thank you. I think there'll probably

be language. I yield my time. I think there'll be language in the proposal that will stop players in the PA from suing them in general for health risks for breach of or whatever I don't know what the legal term for that is. So I think that's kind of where we're headed. If they do propose the 54 games full prorated, I don't know if they'll get the expanded playoffs. Hey, there's one good thing. There's one good thing about a 48 game season is that the World Series winner can drop

the Cal Norton quote on the podium and just say, I know it's a technicality, but I'll tell you what. If you try to take this away from you, I'll sock you right in the face. And that'd be, that'd be in my heart forever. Brian Doge, your second ring. Yeah. Friend of the pod. Yeah.

Miss Daddy Doge. All right. I think we're good here. We're good. The air conditioning is off and the studio has gotten hot. So we're out, Trev. Final last words? Go watch that dog, man

Go watch the dock Go watch the dock I have a beer, watch the dock Tell us what you think Suck my doc