Talkin' Baseball (MLB Podcast) - 67 | The Red Sox Have Been Said to Cheated in 2018 via Replay Room with Trevor Plouffe

Episode Date: January 7, 2020

We brought in ex MLB player and friend of the program, Trevor Plouffe to discuss the new allegations against the Red Sox for using the replay room to decode catchers signs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We're rolling here and should be going live. Got 40 people waiting. More will come. Okay. We sell out everywhere we go now. Take that, Kanye. Take that con. All right.

There we go. That's better. What's going on, everybody? It's talking baseball, talking cheating. We got a new up. So we're going live. We got Jake with me. I got Trevor Plouffe here, ex-big leaguer.

He knows a little more than we do. We want to figure out what's going on. First off, how are you guys doing? We're doing great. Great. Jake has more knowledge than me. That's what he says. That's confirmed.

No, I'm excited. We got the boys together sporadically. Yeah, naturally. The athletic drops a report, and here we are, talking baseball. But if anyone hasn't seen what happened, Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellach, same guys that released the article about the Astros, that was the bombshell, released a new one that the Red Sox had been caught up with this and confirmed that they used the replay room to decode sequences and then relay them to a runner on second. In 2018, it was illegal in 2018 to use the replay room in this manner. and then it came out that the Yankees used the replay room in the same manner in 2015 when it still wasn't at that point it wasn't strictly illegal i'm guessing it was shady i have no

idea um i don't know i guess ploof you're you're the guy that's been in the league you know all this stuff what was your reaction first reaction was this is not a big deal this has been going on for a long time you know and just to paint a picture for people replay rooms are usually the same as your video room. So there's not going to be two different rooms. There might be at a few different parks. And if they are, they're really close to each other. So replay room has a guy, or the replay booth will have a guy that your team signs and he has his camera angles. And if there is a replay, he'll get other angles. But then there'll be a bunch of computers that have a system set up where you can go and do your research. You can track games that have been,

you know, uploaded to the system and you can go back and say, what does this guy throw on a one-one count, you know, for the last three months. So there's a lot of things going on here, a lot of information that's all right there with each other. So it's not like you have to go to a couple separate rooms if you're trying to do something like this. I just want to make sure that everyone kind of knows what the setup will look like. Yeah. So if they're using, All right, so one question. Decoding the sequences for a catcher, if anyone's completely like, what are you guys talking about?

When there's no one on base, the catcher throws down one for fastball. Pitcher sees it, throws a fastball. It throws down two for curveball. If pitcher sees it, throws the curveball. If there's a runner on second base, that guy can see the catcher's signs, so they'll go to a sequence and they'll be like,

one, two, three, blah, blah, blah. And there's a set code like whatever, out there is say there's one out well the out plus one one out plus one equals two it's the second sign i throw down it'll be something like that or outs plus two and that's the sequence so when we say they're decoding the sequence that's what we're talking about i mean i'm correct there right ploof they freeze hold on you get i didn't get that last part i said i'm correct there right yeah no that's exactly what happens so you know and really my thought on the whole thing was

even when the Astros were doing the bang and I said that it's really a responsibility of the catcher and the pitcher and that team that's giving the signals to mix it up enough where you shouldn't be able to relay signs and you know it's a little bit different when nobody's

on because you're not suspecting a camera just fixed on your signs but once someone gets on second base I mean the majority of catchers know like hey this is someone that's been going on a league forever. So, like, we can't just use second sign shake first.

Like, that doesn't work anymore. And, like I said, this is something that has been in the game for a long time. I think what people are really kind of upset about now or when they read an article like this, it's, hey, it's technology. They're using technology. It's not just old-fashioned. We are looking at your signs from second base. So that's kind of where the gray area is.

And I think I've talked to like three or four guys this morning and asked like, how do you feel about this? And I was expecting to kind of get everybody on the same page like, hey, this is something that's been going on for a long time. But because of this gray area in the language of the law and because it's using cameras, a lot of guys have different opinions on it. I mean, I don't think it's that big of a deal because, you know, even if you're going there during the game and using that game's footage to look at signs, most catchers don't change from game to game, you know. So like there's programs on your iPad where you're going to go back and you're going to do your research and study pitchers pregame, and you can go back three, four, five starts and just do the exact same thing at home.

So there's a lot of ways to get this information. I just think that people, there's so much gray area here, that there is a lot of room for misinterpretation or, you know, people to get lost in how do I compare this to that because there's obviously things that are there's levels to this there's different levels of what people would call cheat you know but I think that the general public may have a little bit of a different understanding of it than a baseball player because this is something that we know that's been going on for a long time and maybe people are just kind of now figuring it out so I can I can see why it would seem like a big deal to some people.

Yeah. So what's a little different is that when you have a runner on second since probably 1930 or 1910, catchers and pitchers have, hey, they're trying to steal our signs. Let's put a sequence together. And then, hey, I think they have our sequence. Let's change it up. That's been part of the game for, I'd say, 100 years. In 2017, when the Astros put their system in place with the camera, they were getting the signs when there was no runners on base.

So if it was one fastball, bam, not only did they have it, they relayed it in real time to that batter at the plate before the pitch was thrown. There are two completely different leagues. One, the whole league is aware of and knows this happens. and the other is like people were blindsided in 2017 by the Astros having this. Is that correct? Yeah, absolutely. And I know you have to defend yourself from these Astro fans.

They're all over you for this right now. But yeah, again, this is something the runner on second base. Let me tell you why this is not the same thing. Because if you're an Astro hitter in 2017 and you're standing at the plate, there is nothing to stop you from getting that sign. the bang, right? One bang for whatever it was fastball, two bangs for off speed. There's nothing that can stop you except for crowd noise, right? So you're going to get that. And like you said,

like it's it's live and it's with nobody on base. Like you have to get on base to do these other things. So that's number one. But number two, guys are versed in looking for this. So like the middle infield, if you're a middle infield and you see some stuff going on like this guy's head is moving this way on one pitch and moving the other way on a another pitch like you know to look for that so it's easy to call time out and say hey a either change your signs up or b when this guy comes back up to the place sick one in his ear like like there you are you you know what to look for the other thing is all it takes is for the runner on second base say like you go pregame like hey guys we got the sequence so when you

get on second base lead with your right foot for fastball with your left foot for off speed right the problem is you get guys that will forget them right you hit a double you hit a double you're like stoked you're like ah like you know throwing your shit up you're you know going back to the dugout doing your thing with the boys in the dugout and then all of a sudden first pitch comes you're like oh shit I just forgot to look at the same so the guys hit it was the player did you have a did you have a teammate that was notorious for that like if if someone roped a double they were on second base and you're like, come on, dude, I need some help, but you're out there blessing up. Absolutely.

And then once that happens, once they're like, they miss the pitch, you're like, fuck that guy. Can't trust him. I can't rely on it. It's true. Yeah. So that happens. Or, you know, another thing is, visually, there are times we just can't see what the catcher's putting down. I mean, there's a reason those guys have neon strips on their fingers at times.

You just can't see. So a pitcher can't see it sometimes. You know from second base, you might miss one. So a lot of times that happens where you'll be like, all right, this guy's giving me the sign and it's wrong. So now I'm not trusting that guy. And I'm probably not going to trust anybody else. So there's just, I understand it's against the rules now. And there are a ton of gray areas.

We know that. But it's just not the same thing. Like I said before, there's just levels to this. And there's so many things that can go wrong in the relaying of it. And this was legal until 2018. They didn't like strictly say you can't use the replay room to help until 2018 after the Apple Watch thing. Like it was probably shady or they probably thought teams would not do it. But they laid down the law in 2018.

So the Red Sox may get in trouble now. but what I'm confused at is like, and we said this beforehand, you can't use the replay room to decode signs or to gain an advantage, but can't you just pull up any YouTube at when you're at home on the couch and study the sequence of the team you're playing the next day and then walk into the stadium and be like, hey guys, I got it. If you're on second, look for this and that's not illegal. That's the gray area. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it says, I think in the rule, it says replay room, right? Reply, because what they're scared of is the live time.

The replay room has made them scared of live time cheating. So they said you can't use the replay room at all because that's what they're scared of. Now they use the replay room but not for live time cheating but for just decoding sequences. So they did use the replay room.

But it's not exactly what they were trying to stop from happening. But like yeah, it's against the rules. But what Houston fans can't seem to gather like cheating is cheating. Now you're cherry picking. If you can't figure out the difference of the two things, that's on you, not on me.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's a couple of things that need to be cleared up. The first thing is the 2017-2018, like you're saying. Like, yes, we had the Apple Watch, John Farrell thing. That happened. The Yankees had something in 2015. You gave every team access to cameras.

They started using it. And that's just a fact. So then before the 2018 season, Joe Tori, my guy, my future job, he sends out his three-page memo to every team saying, hey, don't use the replay room. And so the Boston Red Sox, they go on, they continue to use it. And you're right, you had to get on base. And that's, so the 2017-2018 thing is important

because I think Manfred talked to the Red Sox, particularly before the season, because he knew they were doing it. And he said, don't do this again. And they did it again. So one, you're spitting in the face of the commissioner a little bit. number two the part that sucks for me is the whole houston thing because what Trevor said and what you're saying is completely right this isn't in the same world as what Houston it's not but i'm like trying to think of this is either order of events or i'm trying to think of it as okay let's say if houston's dillon bundy and a serial killer like what the red sox did is they robbed a bank or or they hit someone with their car and killed someone.

Yeah, you're going to have to excuse me. I would say, I would say speeding. I would say speeding is more online. And I think that's the problem, because in the shadow of this Houston thing, it is a lot less, but everyone's going to compare it because it's Cora and it's happening at the same time and all of that,

when they shouldn't really be compared, because you're right. The Houston thing, we've said this before, might be the biggest scandal in the history of baseball. This Boston thing is just one of baseball's kind of blips on the radar of cheating that we've seen every 10 years religiously through baseball. Because if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying. But we're still talking about a team that cheated to a degree. They spat in the commissioner's face.

And this team also happened to win the World Series and have an MVP winner. So it is something. And I think that's the problem that people are trying to decipher right now. And you are right. The people that are trying to lump Houston and Boston together and shake their fists like right now, that's too much. But if this Boston thing came out before the Houston stuff, we would be saying this is a big deal. But yeah, I don't think so. I think we would be saying kind of because it came out.

They did this exact thing with the Apple Watches. Same exact thing. And it was illegal at the time. They did get in trouble. No one cared. everyone just says like oh yeah that happens so i i mean if the astros didn't do this i think this would have the same reaction well and that goes back to the commissioner's office reissuing the statements and saying that it's a big thing and not punishing teams for actually cheating and that's a whole

another conversation almost yeah yeah i i just don't see this being the same thing whatsoever i mean if you now are saying you can't go back and watch a video and and try to you know gain an advantage. Then that means you can't go back and say, okay, the pitcher comes set, you know, one, one thousand, two, one thousand go. Like, people have been doing that forever as well. Like, you're trying to get some timing for stealing bases on the pitcher. But that's all, like, video reviewed. I mean, that's, there's so many things that you can gain. I mean, that's why there's video review. So you can do these things and try to, you know, have an advantage. Now, like, the Astros getting it in like live time having their own camera focus.

This is just so different than all of this stuff. I don't, I don't think we would be talking about this at all in the way we are if it wasn't for the Castro situation already coming to light. Yeah. Now people are trying to bump it together, but it's just, it's not the same thing. They're trying to say,

Astros fans are trying to say, ha, you guys cheated too. And it's like, I broke the speed limit. You robbed a bank. Yeah, you could ask 100. you could ask every single big leager in the game right now

and not one of them would be like yeah it's on the same. Even you could ask Astro players and they'd be like no this is not the thing. Yeah and you were a big leaguer. Someone in the chat. If you ask Astros players they'd say well our team tried really hard. That's every interview they've been coming out with.

You're not boys with Musgrove, are you? I don't know them, no. I mean, I like them, but it was an interesting quote. What are they supposed to say? Nothing, nothing. If the Astros didn't do what they're being accused of doing in 2017, they would be denying it off the mountaintops.

We haven't had anyone do that. The most we had is some players say like, like Cole was like, I didn't see anything. It's like, good. You should say that and then you should walk away. But, yeah, that was a weird quote. The pitch for the Astros, like, yeah, you gain some advantage by some run support, but also it really didn't help you on the same level,

you know, the offensive side of things. But yeah, it did get everything. So they said that the punishments for the Astros are probably going to come out in the next two weeks, which I'm prepared for them to be lackluster and maybe some fines, maybe some suspensions, that's all. They did say no players would be punished at all, just kind of the top brass,

which makes sense to me. Um, because otherwise it's like, what are you going to do? Like everyone. So, but hopefully we get that news by the live event. Yeah. Do you think this coming out and people just like talking about it? So it's like in the news again, right? Like before like it kind of had, you know, sided down and nobody was really talking about.

But now we have this simple, you know, sign stealing thing coming out. Do you think this like reinvigorates MLB being like we have to make take a stance, like a harsh stance? because people want it. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Do you think like the reason this article came out is just to push it along? Because we kind of talked beforehand, like, why did Evan Drellich and Ken Rosenthal, like, like you know it's completely different.

I know it's completely different. Logical people know you can't compare these two. So why did like these guys who are really respected write this article and compare the two? Maybe it's stoke the fire, MLB? Like, hey, you still got this problem to deal with? I don't know. I think that, you know, they're just kind of doing their due diligence. You know, they, they don't want to separate these things. They, it was against the rules, you know, like, apparently, like, you couldn't, I, like, I don't understand that at all.

Like, that's just a dumb rule, I guess. But I guess I understand what it's guarding against. But, you know, I just don't, I just don't think it's the same thing at all. Yeah. And, and, and I don't know. I think a couple things here. And Trevor, I liked your point of the, because Jeff, Jeff Passon, our guy, he had like a three-tweet thread that was linking everything to, blah, blah, blah.

And I think there was also a line in there that was, and it's what I mentioned before, with the Red Sox not, nobody having been punished for this happening in the past. And it's what you guys are not. And you're like, yeah, it's a form of cheating, but it's baseball, right? and it's the commissioner's office just hasn't cracked down on anything really and so i think this is the this is the opportunity with the houston thing to do something maybe this is why this is coming out two weeks before and i think it is interesting because i did say i think this red socks thing would be more of a story without the houston stuff but to your point this is becoming more of a story because

everyone wants to tie it to Houston, even though I agree that it shouldn't be tied to Houston, but I still think it's a story. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see what happens. Because if you come down really hard on the Astros, then there has to be some sort of punishment for, you know, apparently the Red Sox now because they're getting investigated as well. So, like, if the Astros punishment is like super harsh, and that's going to bring the level up of this punishment, which really, this is something that should be policed by players, I think,

and maybe not by MLB, but I think there's going to be some correlation between the punishments, and I honestly don't think that's fair. Can you hear me? I got you. I can hear you now. All right. I had someone respond to me on Twitter that was an Ashers fan. That was kind of like countering what I said, and they might have a good point.

They said, but the rule, if the rule is a blanket rule, you can't use technology. to gain an advantage, then both teams did break the same exact rule. Obviously, we know there's completely different levels and different advantages, and can you punish the Astros more for breaking the same rule better? Like, say we're saying this is speeding. It's a 50 mile per hour limit. The Red Sox went 55 and the Astros went 100. Like, will the punishments show that?

And I thought it was kind of interesting because I think the blanket rule is you can't use technology to gain advantage. If you go 55 and a 50 and you go 100 and a 50, one's reckless driving and you're going to go to jail and get your license suspended, the other one's a misdemeanor ticket. I think there's level to do it. Where were you when I was replying to that guy? Unbelievable. Like I said, if you can't use, if the rule is, this is a stupid rule, it needs to be worded differently

or whatever. If you can't use video or technology, which in this instance, we're just talking about video. okay we're talking about we're not talking about you know wearables at the plate you know obviously that's different you're talking about just about video and you're saying you can't use that to form some sort of advantage there's then what about scouting reports you can't even have a scouting report on a guy like this is where this level that the gray area is too much for me like you're you're telling me now that I can't get heat map or I can't get um you know what this guy's throwing oh oh one oh you know there's there's so much information out

out there and now you want to take the game back into the dark ages and say you can even use any of this because that would be breaking the rules if you're using technology which guess what a computer's technology uh so it's just it's a stupid rule they need to reword it or or just do better because i don't even want i don't even want electronic scoreboards anymore yeah absolutely it's a guy holding a sign all cash in the stadium there's no you can't run your car anymore let's go some ballpark should throw like a 1920s night since it's 2020 now and it should just be like straight up the same experience as a 1920 baseball game no women allowed you have to wear a suit and a hat radio only we can't even broadcast the game yeah I'm not on radio that's technology radio technology yeah man all right one more question do we all like do we all like our speeding example. Like we'll say the speed limits 55

and or speed limits 50. Boston went 55, 60. I'm going 60. Houston was going 120. Is that fair? Sure. I'll allow it. Okay. I'm in for that. All right. I think we'll probably wrap this up. I wanted to ask you

ploof before we go because you maybe talk about your preparation before and at bat. When I played fantasy baseball, I was a big last seven days and XB B8 or H what is it Jake BVP I was a BVP guy When you're going stepping up to the plate In real baseball

Were you looking was heat maps as was the first thing you said You're like I want to know where this guy's good zone is Or what was your piece? You could only take one piece of information Before you step to the plate What do you want? You know one piece of information Or one like thing that I would do

Because those are two different things Well, now you've got to explain the difference and tell us both. Okay. What I would like to do mostly to prepare is I would try to go and look at guys who I deem similar to myself. And I want to see how many times that guy's face him. If I don't have clips against him. If I have clips against him, that's exactly what I'm going back to the last couple times I faced him. But if I haven't, I want to go to someone that's similar to me, a right-handed batter that has a spray chart similar to mine.

So I know how to that. So who's your guy? You have to tell us. You have, yeah. So like, yeah, who was your guy? Don't tell me it was like Miggie Cabs. You're like, how'd they pitch the Micky Caves? You know, there was a bunch of different guys.

It's, I looked at for a while. Okay. We faced the same guys. That is so interesting me. So did you internally like compete with Rayburn? Like, you were like, how'd they pitch that fucking Rayburn? I'm going to do better than it. I mean, it could be a guy.

You just wanted the guys that had a lot of the bats against him. So for me, it was a lot of guys in the A.O. Central, even like a Brandon Inge or something like that. That's awesome. It changes. But one, my favorite thing was looking through the counts. So, oh, oh, 1.2. 1. If a guy had a glaring statistic there where he threw 70% fastballs, 1.0. or 3-2 he was 60% off speed or something like that.

You pick up those numbers that are glaringly obvious. And then if he gets to that count, man, you cheat to it. I mean, depending on the game and whatnot. But those are the numbers that I like to see. First pitch is a big one. You know, I was a guy that took me first pitch a lot, which is stupid. Work the count. Do that?

Yeah, don't work the count. That's not smart. Because every strike you get on you, the less chance you have. But, yeah, I think everyone's different, but those are the things that I look for. All right. And if you enjoyed this, Monday the 13th, Santa Monica, three of us and Jack Farty, heard of them. Pretty good pitcher. We'll be doing a live show in Santa Monica.

Santa Monica Brew Works. So go to Eventbrite, get tickets. Jake's going to be shirtless the whole time. Selling out. No, I'm not going full Berk Kreischer. Okay. I'm easier than that. Any parting words?

I just want to say, we didn't want to confuse Dylan Bundy with Ted Bundy. Okay, we did that in the episode and we're sorry, Dylan. Sorry, Dylan. Jake's not sorry. Jake is show me. They're both killers. All right. Thank you guys for watching.

tune in to Talking Baseball podcast. If you want to listen to every episode, come to the live event. Live event will be on the podcast as well. Follow Trevor, follow Jake, follow me at Talking Jake, at Trevor Plouffe. Very simple.

And John Boy underscore. See ya. And we're done. 7,000 people. I saw on my screen, because you guys are clear as day, and I'm choppy. Yeah, it was a little choppy,

but it was fine.