Talkin' Baseball (MLB Podcast) - Jeff Passan Explains Why MLB is Heading Toward A Lockout | 1145

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

Use our code for 10% off your next set of MLB tickets on SeatGeek*: https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/TALKIN2026. Sponsored by SeatGeek. *Restrictions apply. Max $20 discount Book your next trip at https://www.bestwestern.com This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at https://betterhelp.com/TALKINBASEBALL https://fanaticsmarkets.onelink.me/3MFw?pid=jomboy&af_dp=fanmarkets%3A%2F%2Fhomepage&af_channel=partnerships&c=jomboy_fmx&af_ad=youtube&af_web_dp=https%3A%2F%2Ffanaticsmarkets.com%2F%3Fpid%3Djomboy%26c%3Djomboy_fmx%26af_ad%3Dyoutube%26utm_source%3Djomboy%26utm_medium%3Dreferral%26utm_campaign%3Djomboy_fmx%26utm_content%3Dyoutube   ESPN's Jeff Passan joins Coach Trev and Talkin' Jake to discuss the ongoing CBA negotiations, what a lockout would mean for MLB, how a salary cap could be implemented to the league and more! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello and welcome to talking baseball. We are joined by fellow baseball podcaster, part-time reporter, Jeff Passon. Let's talk some CBA. Let's talk ball. Cole Reagan's. Jeff Patton, bun, single. Not bunting, asshole. There we go.

Hello and welcome to talking baseball. We are here. Brother Jeff is with us, Coach Trev. The three, my alpha and my omega, all on one. screen. I think we've only had all three bulls once before. We were debating that before. You probably have a better memory than us, Jeff. Yes, it's true. It's, it was one time, I think it was two years ago. I think last year I came on and shamed you for the lack of ad reads. Yeah. And I think the year before you were flying solo, I don't know why. I'm worried

Trev doesn't like me and just wants to avoid me. So it's nice to have them back. I love you, number one. Number two, we just spent a lot of time together at the WBC down there in Miami. Out of the field chopping it up. It was a marvelous time for us all. It seems like a lifetime ago for being honest. It really does. The WBC was so awesome.

Like the whole feeling there, the whole scene. And just the fact, like my biggest takeaway from the WBC was baseball is in a good enough place right now. where it can start something from scratch and within two decades have a complete worldwide audience just smitten by it. And I've been feeling the same thing with the World Cup. I'm not a soccer guy at all. I'm transfixed by the World Cup. There's just something about when people get together playing for their country that brings out something different in them and getting to see these different rosters and groups of people who have familiaritys and commonalities among them and what that can get out of them. I love the whole thing. And as much as I would love to have it like year

after year after year, I like that there's a multi-year gap to keep us waiting and gin up that excitement a little bit. Yeah, the World Cup, it hits on all chords. I mean, even the teams that are doing WBC stuff like Team Italy, like I think Curisow. is all Netherlands guys, but it's like, hey, we're playing, we're playing for, we're playing for Currisound now. Let's go, boys. And yeah, I think they also get the benefit of some of these deep cut countries that you're like, wait, where, where are you guys from? And you just tied Spain? Like, shout out Cape Verdi. We're not talking football, Jeff. We're baseball guys. Had you heard of Cape Verdi, by the way, before the World Cup?

No. Okay. I looked up flights because I love islands. So I was very surprised. by Cape Verde. Really hard to get to. Really hard to get to. Yeah, unless you got the Trevor Plouf, PJ. Let's, enough of that. Let's talk some real stuff. Jeff, I do want to sources tell Jeff,

pass and plug. How are you like it? How are you like being a podcast? Do you have more respect for us or less respect for us? I don't know that I ever had any. So I would say that there's probably going to be more. Equal. Equal.

An equal blend. Yeah. No, you know how I'm looking at this? Because we've been incredibly fortunate. Like ESPN's putting us on TV every week. So I'm just trying to look at this, less like a podcast, more like a TV show. And I know the line between those two these days is completely blurred. You know, podcasts and TV show are essentially the same thing now.

But I have respect for anybody who can do an hour a week, let alone the, the many, many hours that you guys do. I mean, for us to get our hour, it takes a lot of work. In these dark circles that you see under my eyes right now are the greatest evidence of that. So I love it. Like it's really fun to take on the challenge

that we're trying to, which is how do we tell baseball stories that can feed into the, myth of the sport and can be passed down over generations and can be repeated and can be shared and can add to this love of the game that everybody who's involved with the whole process has. We have a bunch of really big baseball fans working on this show and hopefully it's a reflection of our passion and our love for the game. They're smart.

You guys are doing more evergreen stuff where we talk about the Royal. Royals Astros series. And if you don't talk about it, in those two hours, it's gone forever. No, you know what, though? We need both, right? We need someone who's like feeding the beast every day. And that's what John Boy has made its business on. And you guys are absolutely tremendous at it. And we need storytellers and people who can, you know, fly 30,000 feet over it and understand what the context of everything is and no history enough where you can put the present and compare it to the past. And is that not the perfect transition to what we're dealing with with the collective bargaining agreement right now?

Well, that's where I'll let you kick off. And I mean, I kind of want to watch you two go at it for a little bit. But set the tone, Jeff, because yesterday I'm laughing on my couch. The MLB and the Players Union, both on Instagram, put out there swiping Instagrams with their information about the deal. And my God, it felt like I was going through old political archives of propaganda from both sides. So I guess where are we at now? And then Trev, you take it wherever you want.

I think we're exactly where we've been from the beginning, which is that one side is speaking one language and the other side is speaking another. And there's going to be no substantive progress on anything until they resolve the issue of the salary cap. And the resolution of that issue is a long time off. It's going to, unless there is a distinct 180 from owners, and I don't believe that there's going to be, we're going to have a lockout on December 1st. Now, that in and of itself, I don't think, is a bad thing. It's just the leverage play.

It's just trying to push the sides a little bit closer and create a little bit more urgency. But that urgency isn't really going to come, Jake, until like the end of February, early March, when we're at the point where if they don't get on the field, then they're at risk for games being lost. And that's when things start to get serious. When owners start losing money, that's when owners' eyes open and they're like, is what we're doing here really worth it? Is the juice worth the squeeze in this situation? And when players are about to miss paychecks, it doesn't matter how much. much money the unions taken out of paychecks from players over the last few years in licensing

money to put together this war chest that they've got. That will run out quickly. And when it does, do players have the resolve to stick with their principles? And I hope we don't get to that point. I hope games aren't missed. I think it would be absolutely catastrophic for baseball, not just in the present, but going forward. Because there is a giant pot of gold waiting for Major League Baseball right now in the form of the national television contract and potentially the all 30 teams local television contract. And those would come together in 2008. If you have a work stoppage of any demonstrable length that causes games to be missed, it is going to piss off fans and it is more even more than that going to give television networks

and streaming companies that are holding those pots of gold questions about what are we investing in here? Is Major League Baseball really a serious institution and are the players serious people? And did they not understand that what they've got going right now is a really good thing and that they are killing their golden goose? Anyone that's listened to this show, I say the same thing to them that you just said right there. It'd be crazy to present like a fragmented league with players and fan base to, you know, these networks, these streaming networks in a couple of years.

I think it doesn't make any sense. I do believe there will be a lockout. December comes. It is a leverage play. I've been on the record of saying, I don't think we're going to miss games just because of that. I think we have such great momentum. You started off talking about the WBC and how beautiful it has been for the sport. Plus, we're in the middle of the greatest player that's ever played the game.

his career. Shohei Otani, who has brought this game on a global level like we've never seen before. You can talk about Aaron Judge in New York as well. The Dodgers are great for TV ratings when they're in the postseason or when they're in the World Series, which they have been. There's just all these things pointing to, we

cannot miss games. It does not make any sense. I do get scared because of where the lockout will happen December. And then all these dudes, they're going to want to go on vacation with their families. The holidays start to happen. And you know, like that sometimes weeks will go by and there really will be nothing when that should be the most yeah the time

where they really was it was six it was six weeks last time treb there was like a six week gap where there was just nothing and they figured it out but they also at that point weren't dealing with something as existential to baseball is the entire core economic system and that's what major league baseball wants to do right now and look i i give the league credit um i think it's rollout has been, I think it's been interesting the way that they've rolled it out and they've done it piecemeal. So they've been controlling the narrative and the MLBPA has been responding. The players wanted to present first and they gave their entire package all at once. And it was a lot. But essentially it came down to this. We want teams to be more competitive and we're going to

incentivize them, especially the lower level teams to go out and spend. And we want more money going into the hands of young players. And it's clear why the MLBPA did that. It's because they understand that half of their player population falls into those pre-arbitration buckets. And, you know, there's a large chunk of players who are in arbitration as well. And the one thing that the union, above all needs to prevent against is the bifurcation of their group. You cannot have splits in the union. You know, even something as simple as like one guy, back in 1994, Lenny Dykstra goes on with Chris Myers on ESPN.

I think it was in January or February during the strike and says, you know, I feel like we've reached the ceiling here for where salaries. are going. The top salary at that point was Bobby Bonilla making, I believe, $6.2 million. And so for Juan Soto to have 10xed that in the 30 years that have come between them, Lenny Dykstra very quickly got put back in line. But it took him going to ESPN at that time, which was really like the only means through which athletes could get their messages out in that big of a way. Now, all they have to do is get pissed off at one thing and pull this thing out right here and go like bo-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-and then hit post and the shit hits the fan.

So keeping the players on message, I think, is going to be one of the hardest things for the union to do because you know among the 1,200 players, there are some who believe that a salary cap should be in place. Like, either they believe it because they think it should happen now, or they believe it because they think it's an inevitability that sometime down the road they're going to have one. So why not negotiate the best terms that we can on the first offer? I don't know how this is going to end up. I don't know who's going to break first. And it's such a fascinating, just as a reporter, such a fascinating story to cover the power, the money, the strategy, all of these things. I just hope as a fan of the game

that the power brokers have the game's best interest in mind and quite often unfortunately in these situations they don't. Today's episode is sponsored by Best Western Hotels and Resorts. Summer baseball means road trips driving out, catch a series

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Like we don't care about that unless the fans get a vote in this, which clearly they don't. What are we even doing? Like, so it's been a long time. I've been going through this for a long time. And I understand like the PR battle of it. But I also don't understand like why do we. necessarily need that. What does that actually even mean? Why are both sides really trying to get the people on their side when in the end they're just going to be voting amongst themselves? Like what's

what's the play there? Yeah, not just voting amongst themselves, but Trev, at the end of the day, every collective bargaining agreement is nothing more than a math problem. It's just about we have this much money and we're going to decide to divide it in this particular way. And, you're right. Fans ultimately do not have a say, but I think from Major League Baseball's perspective, at very least, they want to show that they're listening. And fans aren't pissed about the Dodgers. Like, that's what a lot of this comes down to in the same way that they were about the Yankees back in the 1990s. Success breeds animus. And when you have the Dodgers doing what they do, it doesn't matter to fans. that the Dodgers develop players as well as anybody in baseball.

It doesn't matter to fans that the Dodgers make trades like Gavin Lux from Mike Sorota, and they wind up with a top 20 prospect for a guy who had two years of service and hasn't ever started every day in his career. It doesn't matter that the Dodgers organizationally are as sound as any team in baseball. All we look at is the money. And it's because there's some truth to that. The Dodgers do have enormous financial advantages. They have it in multiple ways, too.

It's not just the ability to pay Kyle Tucker $60 million plus, you know, a 100% luxury tax hit on that. It's that they can give deferrals out because deferrals are a cash-heavy endeavor. In order to have deferred money or in order to do big signing bonuses, is you need to have cash on hand right now that you can put away. And the Dodgers have as much cash as anyone not named Steve Cohen. And so what they've done is that they've leveraged every advantage in this collective bargaining agreement to their benefit.

And I think there ultimately is a happy medium that you can find without necessarily going to a salary cap. But right now, and this might ultimately be posturing guys. But this might also be the reality of what we're dealing with with owners here. They are feigning like they're going to go to the mattresses for the cap here. And they are acting like they have the belief that the system is so backward and so wrong right now that this is a necessity. Is it? I think if you look at the state of baseball right now and you see that small market teams can compete,

They haven't won the World Series since Kansas City Royals, but they can compete. Is that enough, though? And that's a question that I don't have an answer to. I mean, as far as back as I can remember, the cap has always been at least discussed in negotiations, maybe not as brazen as it has been in this round of negotiations. But I do, it is June 26th, and we do have some time. So I do think there is a little bit of like, hey, obviously, we're going to start with what we really want. or like, you know, the farest fetched proposal and then we'll kind of meet in the middle.

I just, I think that's my. What's the middle here though, bro? Yeah, I mean. Like, that's the, the part that I'm concerned with is that there is no middle when you're trying to completely change the system and the other party does not want to change the system. I guess one of the sides has to give up on, uh, on the firm. of its position. And I don't know who that's going to be.

Yeah, I guess I don't know exactly what the middle of this would be. I know some things they do want, they would love an international draft. And part of that is that's a divider amongst the players. I mean, that was a that was a big one in 2000, whatever it was, 16 when I was in it. It's like they proposed the international draft and a lot of the catch from- It shouldn't be by the way. I look at drafts as means of control more than anything. But there are reality in sports right now, and I know you don't want to give up a draft.

And I know on top of that, the position of the players is why are we solving? Why are we tasked to solve a problem that is of your creation? like the corruption that's going on in the Dominican Republic right now particularly but in Latin America writ large is something that Major League Baseball has fostered they just haven't policed it as well as they could have because that takes resources and that takes time and that takes more than the league has been willing to invest that being said I think the draft would go a long way to getting rid of 12-year-olds being shot up with steroids. And that's what we're trying to do here, right?

Like at the end of the day, I think all you need to do is try and make the best and most productive path into professional baseball for kids who by and large are coming from third world countries and immense poverty. And if baseball, both the players and the league are not treating those kids with care and with respect and with the idea of education being part of this. Like there are so many great things that any new system in Latin America could do to help people down there and just a matter of taking the time and the investment to do it. I agree with all of that.

I've heard horror stories after a horror story from what goes on in those countries. And it's not just from time and time. It happens all the time. I guess chess-wise, you mentioned, okay, the great game is the salary cap that in theory, you know, are we really negotiating over anything until we get there? But you put your piece out with Kylie McDaniel talking about the international draft. And I was curious to see because I was like, for me, that article or that update was like let the games begin. Like I didn't know what angles were going to come in.

And I think you talked about it that in that proposal, I think teams, could be saving, what was it? It was X amount of dollars on draft picks a year, while also hiding it behind some of the issues in Latin America right now. I guess part of that question is how much... Are we already playing chess, or are these just like fake moves?

Like the game hasn't even really begun, or is this actual posturing, or is it just to get players potentially divided? I think it's all the above. We are playing the game, right? now. Absolutely. Like the game is in full bloom at this point and it's early stages and some of the pieces that are being moved around the board, Jake, are to set up other moves later on in the game. They're just trying to position all their pieces right now so that when it comes down to the

nitty gritty, they're in spots where they can attack and strike and get advantages. And, you know, we don't know at this point what Major League Baseball or the Players Association really, really want. Like last time around, for example, you know, what got this deal done in 2022, you wouldn't think this, but what got the deal done at the end of the day was the MLBPA being willing to give up essentially on-field rules to MLB. And, you know, looking back in hindsight, Thank God they did, because if it were a 50-50 split in on-field rules where you need a majority to implement them, there would not be a pitch clock right now. Like the union would not have approved a pitch clock.

I don't think the union would have approved ABS. I remember conversations with people on the player side at the time when it was being implemented and when Major League Baseball got the ability through some horse trading toward the end of negotiations to do that more or less unilaterally. Like they have input from players, but realistically, what MLB wants with on-field rules, MLB gets now. And that was a collectively bargain thing. And, you know, before the pitch clock even started, I can't tell you the number of

conversations I had with players who were dubious about it and who were just kind of shitting all over it and say, and what's this going to do? And it turns out like, save the game. It's been great. It's the most awesome innovation in sports in a half century and engage millions of new fans and change what people's perspective is on baseball.

And MLB is doing a really interesting thing, which is taking the success of the pitch clock and taking, oh, see, my dogs, they love the pitch clock, taking the success of the pitch clock and taking the success of ABS and trying to conflate those with collective bargaining. They're trying to make the argument that we know, like we know baseball well, we know what our fans want. We gave them the pitch clock and it worked.

We gave them ABS and it worked. And we'd like to give them the salary cap because that's going to work too. And I give them, I give them credit. Like, it's a clever little marketing tool, but these are completely different things. And, you know, the league will argue that, hey, it's on field. It's the same. No, it's not the same. This is something that affects absolutely every level of baseball touches on every part of the game.

And as much as players were in opposition to a pitch clock and to ABS. it is orders of magnitude greater with a salary cap. I was thinking about your question earlier. What's the middle ground? I feel like the competitive balance tax is the middle ground between a cap and then a free system, right? Like that's essentially the owners brought that in on themselves. And kind of when they were showing the international draft years ago,

they put that in and then players feel like they didn't rate. it enough, I guess, essentially, because it does act as a soft cap, essentially, for a lot of teams. Some teams don't care about it. You know, the Dodgers don't care about it. Well, okay, but Trev, Trev, I'm sorry to interrupt, but you just brought up the best point right there. The Dodgers don't care about it. What we have to do, though, is ask ourselves, and this to me is where you find that compromise. We have to ask ourselves, why do the Dodgers not care about it? it. And the answer to that is because it's monetary and because there are teams out there like

the Dodgers and like the Mets. And to a lesser extent, you know, the Yankees aren't willing to go over quite the same way, but the Yankees have cash. The Phillies have cash. All of these cash-rich teams have told us through their maneuvering and through their willingness to take on hundreds of millions of dollars in penalties, that monetary penalties do not stop them from spending. Those in and of themselves are not going to be the type of cap that Major League Baseball intended when the CBT was put in. So the question we have to ask ourselves is, okay, if money alone is not going to do it, what will? What sorts of creative compromises can we have? toward the top end, and especially at like the Cohen tax levels right now,

to ensure that teams aren't going to blow by them and have, you know, what back in the 90s they were calling like reckless spending. What can we do to ensure that that gap between the New York Mets in Los Angeles Dodgers at the top and the Miami Marlins and Cleveland Guardians and, you know, other such spending teams at the bottom is not as large as it is. Because even as somebody who looks at the state of labor right now and the system that baseball has in place as being effective, I do think that the gap between, you know, the top and the bottom right now is, it's just like comically large. And we know, we know from the Mets and we know

from the Red Sox and we know from the Giants that spending money does not necessarily equal winning. But I think over the course of time, if you look at dollars spent with success, the correlation there is pretty strong. It's specifically the World Series. I think that if, I mean, not that the Blue Jays are a small market team by any means. No, very large market team. If Ernie Clement had some damn power instead of flying out to left center, hit one off Give Ernie a fucking break, Trevor.

My God, that man's bat to ball skills are incredible, and I want to be on board with everybody who puts the ball in play. That's your American League All-Star leading vote-getter motherfucker. Come on. We should be focusing on fixing the All-Star vote. That'll be what brings it home. Serious question. One more silly thing before I get through a serious question.

Don't you think it's funny they used to call the fourth tier the Steve Cohen tax? and then the Dodgers are just like, yeah, okay. Call it the Steve Cohen tax. You don't care. Yes. And especially because Steve Cohen has exceeded the Steve Cohen tax and the Metz still suck. They're still terrible. It's so bad, Jeff.

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loaded and thank me later. And thank you. See Geek. Why? Okay. So for all this to go down, say we have a cap. Say we come, it comes down to it. The thing that's really stopped a lot of different

proposals from happening through these CBA agreements throughout the years is that owners unwillingness to open their books. They don't want to do it. Yeah. So they would have to do that. And a revenue sharing system, in a cap system, they would have to do it. Why now are they just saying, all right, we'll do it? Like, what's the difference? Are they able to hide things better now? Because that's been the biggest resistance. Yeah, I think it's always been when is the right time to unleash the cap proposal. For, you know, ever since Sonia Sotomayor,

put baseball back on the field in 1995, that hasn't killed owner's desire for a cap. Every owner in every professional sport wants a cap. And it's very simple, why? Because you know what you're going to spend every year. And the idea of having a fixed amount going to a particular place and not having to go and necessarily spend over that is very attractive to potential investment. And, you know, as much as Major League Baseball says this is about competitive balance, and I do believe there's some element of that to this. It's also about franchise values. And it's also about making their investments worth more when they sell.

Because you talk to just about any baseball owner guys, and they will tell you that year over year, Major League Baseball is not a cash-rich business. like the amounts of profits that you're making in any given year. I mean, they could be pretty good, but compared to the size of the business itself when we're talking about multi-billion dollar companies, the profit margins aren't all that great for a lot of teams, and they're just plain not good for some teams. The Mets, you know, spending what they did,

lost a quarter of a billion dollars last year. So where they make their money is on the sale. And if you look at the price of Major League Baseball sales before Jose Feliciano bought the San Diego Padres, when you look at when the twins were on the market and the Angels were on the market and the nationals were on the market, they were not fetching the prices that they believed their franchises were worth. And they weren't going up anywhere close to commensurate with what other professional sports organizations have had. So of course, that's what they're trying to do. And at the end of the day, the players would be able to look at the books, Trev.

But that's not the important thing in this situation. The reason that players are as opposed to the salary cap as they are beyond institutional, you know, opposition to it from the union, it's because there are carveouts in the split. And all of this, it gets back to it being a matter. math problem. MLB has proposed a 50-50 split with baseball-related revenue. The big question is, how do you define what constitutes baseball-related revenue? Does it include the battery in Atlanta, which is built around the idea of Atlanta Braves games and of having traffic both before and after the game going into all the shops around there.

It seems pretty baseball related to me. Nope, not included. Is it expansion fees where the players are quite literally going to be involved with these new teams and on these new teams? Nope, expansion fees are carved out too. And there are any other number of carve-outs in the other capped leagues that MLB is trying to emulate with its offer. Now, if MLB went to players and said, we'll give you a cut of expansion fees and we'll give you a cut of, you know, the other ancillary income from businesses around the park, then it becomes an interesting thing.

Then it becomes something where I think at very least players would be compelled to listen. But MLB's not going to offer that. They're not going to put that on the table. They would need the union to come to them and say, okay, You know, we'll play ball with you. We want this, this, and this. But I don't think the union's ever going to do that because they would feel like in that situation that they're the fish that bit the hook.

And no matter how long they flop around, ultimately, once you open that door, you're going to be reeled in. Yeah, and Bruce Meyer taking over and him being like, I'm the guy that decided to have a cap, that doesn't seem very likely. And, you know, I've been curious because I'm obviously not in these meetings anymore. or you should just be hammered home to us. Like no chance, no cap ever. Every single guy that came before you, he suffered so you guys could have the game the way you have it.

Never going to happen. I don't know if that's still the narrative. I'm assuming it is. It is for sure. But I really do think it's an interesting question to pose to players. What's more important to you? Money or freedom? Because I think that's what Major League Baseball,

with its cap system is trying to suggest that you will make more money. Now, these proposals that have been made, that's not the case, you know, taking away a whole class of international free agents, essentially by pushing them to reach the age 18 limit, $200 million. Cutting $200 million a year from domestic amateur signing bonuses. Like all the little areas to get down to that 50% that MLB is proposing, the union at this point does not believe that they would be making more money. And, you know, tying growth to revenue, I'll say one thing, like the reason that draft bonuses have gone up as much as they have, even more so percentage-wise than salaries for big league players is because they've been tied to revenues.

So the argument from MLB that if you hit your wagon to our business machine, then you will benefit from that, it's a fairly compelling one when you look at what the numbers have been. But then you also look at them selling, you know, TV rights to Roku for $10 million and completely screwing up the market for that. And it's like, you know, we've been indoctrinated with not trusting Major League Baseball. So now we're going to be partners with them? Like the conceit of that would just take such a fundamental shift in the philosophy of the MLBPA that it's hard to envision that happening. I forget. Did you guys vote on money or freedom?

I missed your guys pick. You're asking me? I can feel for it. No, Trevor, you were a player. Like your opinion's the one that matters. I was asking you guys on a personal level. For my life. Yeah.

For my life freedom. As a baseball player, I'm not speaking on behalf of the NLBPA whatsoever, because I'm not part of it. It's about the money. For both sides, it's about the money. If you're telling me I could make more and I don't have freedom to move around teams, I don't care. I'd rather stay with one team anyway.

Control me all you want. If I'm going to make the money, that's for, I think, for really being honest, That's where most people lie. As somebody who's a slave to his job, I'll just say money in life. And as a player, as a player, I would want freedom. It's funny you say that, Trev, because I think that freedom ultimately, it's like, if you have the freedom to go wherever you want and sign for whatever you want,

you can go and get as much money as you want, right? but maybe there's some other place that's not going to offer you quite the same, but you feel more comfortable. You feel like you can succeed. You feel like you have the opportunity to be the best version of yourself. To me, freedom can get you money, but money doesn't necessarily get your freedom on the, you know, inside the game. Outside the game, hell yeah, money is freedom. Yeah, it's a very interesting conversation. Probably that's more suited for like the bar after the next WBC. We can have that discussion. When that was said, I started spinning over here.

I was like, God, I don't know. I don't know my answer. I think a lot of us chase money for freedom. You know, and that's the thing is, you know, the, if we're talking about money in front of the public, I think it's the worst thing that you can do because they see the general public sees dollar figures and is like, what are you guys talking about? What the, what, like, this is so stupid. We don't want to hear about that. And I understand that.

On a players, on the player's side, it's you are giving up, it's a pipe dream, man. Like, it's very few players make it to free agency or even get enough time to make it to arbitration in the big leagues. And you're giving up, well, I don't know, at least four years of like, you know, where you can be in the workforce. And then you got to go through the minor leagues. And then you got to do all this. By the time it's all of sudden done, there's so many players that have just played minor league baseball, maybe got a cup of coffee, who enter the workforce at 28, 29 years old, without. and the game has really given them nothing for being honest.

So, like, when you do make it, it really, that's why I say it is about the money, man. Like, I, I chase this dream down. Now I feel like I want to get rewarded and pay accordingly. That's always where I'm at. And I know it's, I hate the conversation about dollar figures because, again, like, the general public doesn't want to hear that. But that's, that's the truth. Once, if you make it, you want to be able to capitalize on it as best you can.

Tripp, can I ask you a question. So I thought it was really interesting MLB's max contract proposal. You know, if you sign somewhere else in free agency, the max you can get is five years and 15% of the proposed cap, which is $202 million. If you sign with your own team, it's six years and $265 million. And my first reaction was, so they want to cut what Juan Soto got by a third in years and a quarter in dollars, essentially, right? And, you know, I operate under the idea that the reason that players are okay generally with Juan Soto getting money like that is because all of them somewhere think to themselves, maybe that could be me someday.

And maybe I'm going to be a superstar on the level of Wonsoto. And I don't want to have restrictions placed on my ability to earn for my family. at the absolute apex of your baseball career, when you felt better about your prospects, your production, everything than you ever did, what did you think your ceiling was financially? June 2016, Trev, walk us through it. That's 2012 when I was 11 homers, no big deal.

No, you get, so when you go through arbitration, they are, they, your agency is going to prepare a package. okay if you continue at this level this is what you're going to make through arbitration then here's what you could make in free agency i mean a 30 homer a year guy like i mean probably for me and my skill set there's a chance i could have made nine figures for sure easily yeah yeah so i mean that's what i think and yeah and and that's the that's the part about this trev It's like, I understand that LeBron James, who was worth $100 million plus dollars a year, every year that he's been in the league, has never made anywhere close to what his ceiling is.

And there's something weird to me about, you know, when Victor Wenbanyama signs his deal or Nicola Yokic or whoever it is, signs that max deal, that a player who's distinctly not as good as him is going to get that same deal. Like, there has to be a change in mindset of players to accept that. And I just don't see baseball players falling in line with that ideal. It happens in the NFL too. I'm very good friends with the MVP of the league right now. And, you know, he sees other guys because they're hitting free agency or whatever they call it there at the right time. They're just going to keep one-uping each other, but because there is a cap and his team has X amount of dollars, I mean, he's making 60% of what he probably should be earning.

So, like, it's, it's, it's, I've talked to him a lot about this and it's just the way their system works. And for me to think about it, and whenever a baseball guys talk to basketball or football guys, you know what they always say? This is the truth, because I've done it multiple times. I can't believe the deal that you guys have. That's incredible. Like they wish. Yep. They wish.

So I don't know. I don't know what that says. I don't know what that says. You know what that says to me? That says to me that the freedom is what matters. Because I, you know, the NBA, you look at the growth. And after the television contract that the NBA signed with the SPN, the cap went up significantly. And, you know, the, you know,

the amount especially like that max deals can get went up to, you know, per year salaries even greater than MLB, which for the longest time was at the top there. And the fact that even players in a sport where you can make $70 million a year, even in a sport like that, that they want the opportunity to go out and see what a truly free market with limited, I'm going to say not no restrictions, but with limited restrictions look like, tells you everything you need to know about why Major League Baseball players are as firm in the position as they are.

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It should suck for the other, too. And I, you know, it feels like why, why if you're a baseball players, if caps are good for owners, would you even entertain the idea as a player of having one? That's why it happened. I quote that a lot. We got lost in that era of baseball where a strikeout is a regular out. And now as Ernie Clement gets all the all-star votes that ever have been happened. No, the way you phrased it was so perfect that I quoted a lot

that it's if strikeouts are the best thing a pitcher can do, why aren't hitters, like, kept accountable for them? And we're seeing the game, the game is changing. Like, that's where all the pitch clock and all that stuff, ABS is great as well. Baseball was in a funk with the three true outcomes and the overshifting in that stuff. That the game is, the game wasn't adapting during three true outcomes.

and now it's starting to adapt again. And it's part of what makes baseball the beautiful game. Nice. No question there. I did have a question. I have two, actually. I'll keep it at one. What literally players-wise, who are going to be the main players?

Like, I remember when we've been doing this, like, you're talking about the old guard and the new guard here a little bit. Like, do you have any sense from the player's side? Or like a Scherzer or Verlander going to make this, like, their last hurrah? like almost I will fight them one more time and ride off in the sunset. Maybe I'm Games of Thronesing this a little too much. But I guess what players should we be looking out for in this process?

Max Scherzer is not going to be part of this. Max Scherzer has gone to the wall. Yeah, his watch has ended. Yeah. Good to know. Good to know. It's going to be interesting, though. I mean, the executive subcommittee has some real dude.

on it. And if we recall back in 1994, the two most prominent players there were David Cohn and Tom Gleavin, you know, both Cy Young Award winners, both educated, both super well-spoken, just really good guys to put out there. Terrick Scubble and Paul Skeens are on the subcommittee right now. And I don't know how much, I don't know how much they are going to actively take roles in communicating things, but they are both going to be in meetings and they are both very, very intelligent men, thoughtful and passionate about this subject. Chris Bassett, I think, has a chance to be one of those voices. Pete Fairbanks, Marcus Simeon is the conscience of the subcommittee. He's the guy who's been around the longest and who has the most tenure there. But Brent Souter and

Cedric Mullins. It's a wide array of players on the subcommittee, and who comes outside of that is going to be really interesting. Are they going to get someone who's young, like Jacob Mizorowski, to come out and talk about it? Are they going to have Latin American players? There's a distinct lack of representation among Latin American players at the highest levels of the Major League Baseball Players Association right now. It's a problem. It has been a problem for upward of a generation at this point. And it's something that should have been addressed long ago because if the MLBPA knows the only way that a cap is coming is if the union's fractured, then aren't you trying to pre-treat potential fractures before they can be exploited? That's one of those areas, I think, where if we sort of look past the proposals and try and see what the meaning,

of them is, we should keep an eye on that in terms of what the league is putting out there. And how, if at all, does this affect Latin American players who, you know, comprise an increasingly significant number of the 1,200 spots in the MLBPA? Yeah, I don't think the international draft gets them on your side or like, makes them want to fragment away from everybody. So I think that was a huge misstep by Major League Baseball, in my opinion. You know what, though, Trev? I think there are also some players who see what's going on and who give a damn about youth baseball

and who want it to be easier. All of them went through that process, right? And I think the vast majority, a lot of the guys with whom I've spoken about this, they're looking out for the Boscones who helped raise them and who brought them into their homes and fed them and taught them to play baseball. And yes, took an exorbitant portion of their signing bonuses. And you can argue about the system of training,

especially in the Dominican Republic, whether it's good for the people. It's good for players, though, because Dominican talent in baseball is pretty fantastic. Yeah, I mean, I think there's just, there's different ways to go about fixing. And again, that's for a different time, I think. probably for some people that have been around it more than at least I have. I don't really have

a ton of experience down there. So I'm just, I'm just so enamored with like why Major League Baseball is kind of doing this at this point before you're talking about these national TV rights. I don't, like, why now? Why not, if you, this is your goal, like, why not just kick it down until after you have those deals done? Like, why is it? Because again, I've been a part of these subcommittees. And like the cap always gets brought up, but never in a serious manner. I believe this is the first time they've actively proposed it since in the 90s, right? Yeah, 94. So, why wouldn't you wait for one more? So this gets back to strategy. This gets back to the chess game that's being played.

I would argue that if you're major league, baseball right now, what exactly do you have that stopping you from proposing a cap when you know that the second you pull back from that cap ask, you're going to get a deal done? Like, that's the thing. There's very little, I think, for MLB to lose by doing this, because by unveiling this as they are, by meticulously going through point by point, whether it's on Instagram posts or whether it's on websites that they're starting, they're planting the seed right now for the cap. And if it germinates this year, then that's a huge win for them. But at very least, they're going to nurture it over the next few years. And every time the Dodgers win the World Series, you're going to have

more people saying, hey, maybe we should have a cap. And every time a free agent signs with the big market club, you're going to have people saying, hey, maybe we should have a cap. And then all of a sudden you have this entire proposal, this body of evidence that Major League Baseball has in service of a salary cap that was placed there, yes, in an effort to potentially get it now,

but also in an effort to essentially put themselves in a salary cap in the zeitgeist going forward. And that's an enormously valuable thing where Major League Baseball has done, I'd say, a really good job of making gains in labor over the last couple of decades by not trying to go for everything at once, by planting those seeds and by bringing in things that are piecemeal. And those piecemeal things add up to ultimately a labor landscape that's a whole lot different than it was in 1994. So this is

I mean this is like the government slowly over 50 years, you know, preparing us for this like alien disclosure so much that now we just the government saying, yeah, there's aliens out there and nobody cares.

That's kind of what this is. Like we've just been like, okay, yeah, there's aliens, there's area 51, here's a picture of one, here's these people's sightings. Then all of a sudden they actually released a formal document and nobody cares anymore. kind of amazing how that works. No, it's just, you know, the psychology that's unwittingly accepted by sports fans, it's really interesting.

It's a fascinating thing to study the brains of sports fans and just their willingness to be propagandized. Don't study my brain. I mean, the thing is, at very least it would reveal that you, Jake, are one of of those aliens. I've always wondered how one can have a body like you do. And that's the answer right there, Trev. The man is rectangular because on the planet narthog, that's exactly what they look like. That's how they're shaped. I didn't need that. That hurts. I'm not even that mean to you, Jake. Narthog. That one stung, Jeff. Um, okay. Okay. Well, he has actually a big league pitcher we found out today throws just like him and Ryan Johnson of the angel. So that's good. Oh, yes, he does.

little. Is there anything, anything we should be looking out for timeline-wise? Like, is it just there's going to be meetings and then we'll get fake updates, but the clock's not really start until December? Like, what should fans be looking out for? Stop worrying until the new year. Yeah. Like, come, come to terms with the likelihood of this inevitability and understand that as dire as it might seem right now. And as much concern as fans should honestly have because the sides are so far apart, that time is your friend and that there is still time to remedy this. There's still time to ensure that a deal gets done. And there's still time for baseball in 2007 to be saved.

Like root for the brewers, right? I you know I suppose in a world series this year no cap I don't think that's going to change the minds of owners in any way but you know it let's put it this way narratively it would go a really long way yes funny man woodruff stays healthy iKF gets a bigger secondary lead last year and we're talking about blue jays brewers instead trade for scubal trade for scoble is is that are you preparing your next like six weeks to be trade for scubel is that your life now uh yeah pretty much i mean it's you know here's the here's the thing though in the same way that i'm not really concerning myself with that much right now because it's so far off that's how i'm looking at the collective bargaining agreement it's like we are so far away from this there's there's no point in getting concerned tarrick scoble's not moving any time soon. The tigers are going to give themselves as much runway as they possibly can.

And, you know, when like the American League standings, they just kind of anger me. They should. Dude, this was me earlier this week. I was like, frustrated. Yeah. Yeah. It's like somebody, somebody show not just show life, but show enough where. it's like the Yankees are at least going to have a series.

Because, you know, provided Aaron Judge comes back healthy, but also maybe even if he doesn't, the Yankees are just so much better than everyone else in the American League right now. And I know Seattle can in a short series, if not outpitch them, then pitch with them. So I still see the Mariners, oddly, is the second best team in the American League or the second-likeliest.

But it's like they can't get over 500. They can't get more than two games over 500 without having like a little slide back. And that's been the entirety of the American League this year. Just a wasteland of mediocrity. Hey, Tatsuya, Maya's figured it out. We got Hunter Brown, Pete Lambert, and the Yankees. Are you on the Astros?

Are you like a... I'm not. I'm not. I'm just joking. But that's one team they don't want to see because there's history there. And Yordon Alvarez equalizes Aaron Judge. Dude, they can't pitch. Nobody can do anything, though.

He's such a roller coaster ride. Sometimes you see him pitch, you're like, this guy's got all the stuff in the world. Yeah, and then other times he pitches a third of an inning. So, go twins, let's go. Nobody wants to be off the mountain more than Tatuya Mai. God, watching you two go at it from the corner here.

It was kind of flashbacks to the WBC. for me. What else do you have coming up, Jeff? What should the people be looking out for from you? We had maybe, I don't know if this is my favorite episode that we've done, but the episode of Sources Tell Jeff Passon that ran earlier this week was just so much fun because what we like doing, in addition to talking to the stars and capturing the big stories is telling the stories that people don't know about. And Michael Zagaris, who is a photographer in the Bay Area, you know Zetrev? Of course. Yeah, he was there when I played for sure. Yep. He's just a he's a fucking legend. And the and I say this because not just the the photos that he's

taken in baseball, which are awesome and where he has unparalleled access, you know, sitting in inside the A's draft room, going inside the clubhouse minutes before a game. But this is a guy who did mushrooms with Keith Moon and then took one of the most famous rock and roll photographs of all time. This was a guy who back in the late 80s when Jose Canseco was at the peak of his powers and was trying to get with Madonna, went in a back room at the Oakland Coliseum and started taking what he called beefcake photos of Kinseko so he could send an album to to Madonna saying this is what Jose's got.

And it goes on and on and on the number of stories that this guy has in the life that he's lived. And the ability to spotlight people like that whose lives and careers are intertwined with baseball, but not necessarily defined by it, who have lived the sorts of days that any of us could dream of. That to me is what this show is supposed to be. It's telling great baseball stories. and having Billy Bean, Jose Canseco, and Dallas Braden all come on and tell Z's stories was an absolute joy. Love that.

He's a legend. He's so fun to talk to. And yeah, you're right. The stories that he has are crazy. To be able to go, I mean, two my most favorite things, baseball and rock and roll, like he was, he's like the guy in both of those. So yeah, I'm in. Yeah.

I mean, Z's sitting there telling a story about how, you know, Sid Vicious. It wants to walk on stage with a swastika arm band. And, you know, the promoter of the concert is like, no, no, no, you can't do that. It's not a fashion statement. And then the sex pistols go out and have a show. And it is their last show. And Michael Zagaris was not just there, but he was backstage with the sex pistols that night. This is a guy who burned his draft card with Muhammad Ali.

Like, that's the kind of life that he's lived. And those sorts of people and ones who are rack and tours like he is, I mean, I think my favorite story from the whole episode, Ricky Henderson is sitting in back, sitting in the clubhouse, rather, playing cards and just starts farting. And everybody at the table is absolutely appalled by this. and someone comes up to him and says, hey, Ricky, they're playing the Blue Jays that day. Hey, Ricky, Ernie Witt was calling you a hot dog. And Ricky's like, well, I got something for Ernie. And he goes up to the plate and he's standing in the batters box and he turns sideways, waits for Ernie Witt to get in a crouch and just unleashes one right in Ernie Witt's face.

And Z, of course, has his camera up. because he's been in the clubhouse. He knows what's about to happen. He knows that Riggie had a special delivery for Ernie Witt. And there it was right there. That's Jake right there. That's your life. That's talking baseball.

Everyone, everyone go check out. Sources tell Jeff Passon. Thank you so much, Brother Jeff. I'm sure we'll catch up with you. Probably see you in Philly a little bit, huh? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I'll be in Philly. All-Star Game. Philly's a, hey, Philly's a fun city. That's right. We know about your Philly stories. Yeah. We know. Oh, yeah.

That's your secret bar. Okay. Okay. I'll see you out in Philly. Thank you, Jeff. You're the best. Goodbye. Thank you, boys.

Appreciate you having me. Enjoy your weekends. This is the end of the show.