Talkin' Baseball (MLB Podcast) - Talkin' Baseball's Official 2024 Hall of Fame Ballot | 753

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

Use code TALKIN for $20 off your first SeatGeek order. https://seatgeek.onelink.me/RrnK/TALKIN++++Timestamps:0:00 Rumors & Newa5:00 Alex Bregman & Juan Soto Rumors9:00 How Do Trades Happen?12:00 HOF Ballots13:55 Adrian Beltre26:00 Todd Helton32:50 Andruw Jones & Torii Hunter43:45 Carlos Beltran46:00 Steroid Era: A-Rod, Manny Ramirez53:40 Lefty Handed Pitchers: Andy Pettitte and Mark Buehrle58:00 Joe Mauer1:01:25 Chase Utley1:03:00 Bobby Abreu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello and welcome to Talking Baseball, rumor mill season, and it's Hall of Fame ballot time. Let's do it. Small Hall only! Hello and welcome to Talking Baseball, presenting you by Seat Geek, the number one ticketing app in the world. Seekek, it's so easy to use, I can use it. Download the app, 70,000 events every single day on Seekek. I think Beebbs went to the mecca last night. little seat geek action there, a little in-season tournament.

Hey, maybe buy some tickets for your team before they sign that big free agent because those prices might, you know, they start going a little north when they start rolling out the checkbook a little bit. Download the app, go see something, and use code talking $20 off your first purchase with Seat Geek. Trevor Pluth live on the West Coast. And I am lucky enough to say I'll get to see you in person tomorrow. Maybe even 930 p.m. Rezi.

How you doing, Trev? Unlike those prices that are going north, you and I are going south. Sure are. I'm doing great, man. I don't know if you saw that pitch I threw you. It was my new gyro backup sweeper slider. Yes. I developed it.

You guys, it's a slider. They're all sliders. So just move differently. I don't know why I had to say that I had to get that I had to get that off my chest Trevor May was putting up videos I love you so much T2

real too way too in depth for me okay maybe that's why I was a bad hitter I don't know I'm excited for this episode rumor mill is going to be fine we still haven't had like massive breaking news

yet in the out season but the HOF ballot I think this is going to be fun there's a bunch of guys on here that you know deserve a shot but with what we've known about the HOF probably aren't going to get in

but I think our official ballot is what really matters to these guys that's what I'll say. Probably not but I'm excited. Bebers, I'm going to ask you something. How you doing, bro? I'm doing great. Excited for winter meetings next week.

One, because I'll be there, exciting, tease the people with that. And two, because that's when I think we'll start getting like action action. And we've been fed a little bit the last couple weeks, but good. time to do this step. Yeah.

Starting to get hot in the streets a little. I thought, I thought baseball offseason was, was getting going, but in hindsight, it was Nola re-signing in the Cardinals. Like, otherwise, otherwise it hasn't really yet

that makes me think they're lining up for winter meetings, which. And the Tigers. Makes me a little jelly. Obviously, the Tigers are rolling and building something in that central, like we've talked about.

We haven't, we haven't gotten too much rumor mill wise i mean it's kind of calm before the storm season uh was was there anything out there are your little birdies telling you anything trev is there anything you need to get out you know uh trevor's tidbits have just kind of gone by the wayside it's that was a it was an era for me where i was reaching out looking for information i really haven't done it i'm assuming we're going to get some some things here and there this weekend as we are surrounded by some ballplayers.

I mean, I'm just reading the articles like all of us are, you know, on X, getting Kenny Rosenthal updates. There's a bunch of stuff out there that I thought was interesting. A lot of trade candidates. People who are saying like Juan Soto

definitely going to be traded is the rumor that's out there right now. That's a massive, that's a massive trade. We're talking about a 25-year-old who is his career is starting. off like Ted Williams. Like, don't forget how good Juan Soto is at the plate. He's going to be traded according to industry sources.

Now, where we don't know, you were in a Yankees hat, a lot of people are saying that. But the ones that I was kind of like more interested in, I had a little bit of talk about Boba Shett with C. Rose on baseball today. I thought that was an interesting one as far as, you know, Toronto having to make a decision, maybe having to decide between Vlad Jr. and Boba Sheet. which that's a self-imposed decision, by the way. You don't have to decide between both those guys. You can't have them both.

So there's rumors of him. Then the one I think I was most intrigued by was the Alex Breggman rumor. There's rumors that he's being floated out there. And I know the Astros can be, they've been ruthless with some of their stars, like kind of like letting them walk. We're talking about George Springer. We're talking about Garrett Cole. Carlos Correa.

So, you know, trading at Bregman, I guess, would kind of be on brand for them. But I just have him so locked in as an Asher. He's one of those guys that I can't imagine on a different team, man. I really couldn't. But those are kind of those three guys right there, Soto, Bichette, and Bregman. We're talking about three of what, the top, let's just say 20 players in baseball. might be traded this off season. I would love to see it, I guess,

but I just, in my mind, man, I don't know if it makes any sense. Yeah, I think the thing for me, you're right about Soto. I guess there's a little bit, like, we've kind of seen it. Like, he already got traded once, and it was a big deal, it was trade deadline,

and it was that whole thing that, I don't know, I think just anytime something happens, that's the big one. But when it goes down, it'll be massive. I think the other thing, and I I flip-flopped on this a little bit and you, me, Jim, Beavs, we've talked about this. The biggest free agency for a single player is happening live,

but there's nothing on it. There's nothing on it. I did, um, I had, uh, I had some friends of the program, uh, in my DMs after a couple episodes ago when we were talking about show hey, potentially having his like private, private fly-in zone and come to me and we'll figure this out. I don't know what I can confirm or deny, but I had some people saying, like, kind of yes.

Yeah. And that's awesome and hilarious at the same time. That, yeah, you wonder how that breaks. And it just, I guess for me, you know, we get the Friday tweet, you know, not even a week ago from our guy Howie Rose saying Otani News is about to could might happen today

might in today the two operative words Trev and now we're uh we're kind of we're kind of up against it so yeah it's one of those weird things because it's like okay this free agency class isn't great but we have the guy who's going to break the contract for biggest contract ever and then like you said our generation's Ted Williams

is probably going to be traded for the second time. So the juice is there. It's just when are we going to squeeze it? Ain't that life? I'm about to say something that people are not going to like. But I saw a tweet with it, man. There was a point, and I don't know. I wish I had the tweet up in front of me.

I don't know if I was talking about like a seven-year peak for Ted Williams or the first so many seasons or whatever. I mean, it could have been his whole career, but he only faced eight teams. I guess Interleague play didn't exist, right? He faced eight teams. Dres! I'm just saying, that's crazy talk.

And probably the same guys were on those eight teams like the whole time because there wasn't free agency yet. That's crazy to me. We don't need to go into that. I love you, Ted Williams. I ask him after you. Oh, gosh. Talks between the Yankees and Padres about a Juan Soto trade.

have progressed to the point of exchanging names on players. Gosh. Which, that update always kills me, because, like, what did they talk about before? Yeah, what were they talking about?

I've always been fascinated if I got to sit down with any GM and be like, literally how did trades happen. I want that so bad. What do you mean? How is that an update? What did they possibly talk about before?

I guess just, like, surface level, like, we'd love... Not a single name was said, on the other side of the phone? I think they talk vague. I think it's it's it's it's it's it's it's here's the

here's the tiers of our prospects what are you looking for give me some a general idea of a package and then we can start saying okay let's get into specifics because if you just start floating out specifics right away you lose leverage

that's all it is these it's just leverage place back and forth okay you want to this well here's my tier so i get i get that i get that if you do actually progress to the point where you're exchanging names like your your specific players i think that does mean that means something because that that is that is the third or fourth conversation uh that they probably've had regarding a trade i mean that's good for yankees fans that's awesome because no other team is out there rumored

to be having talks and exchanging names. Yeah. Holy shh. Hey, preller, prell daddy. Take who you want. Nobody's off limits for you? I think the only thing, like Jason Dominguez,

he's just, we need lefties and outfielders and, like, in theory, the plan would to be parents. that going forward and like kind of judge but everything else like kind of has to be. Is the Martian even your best prospect right now? I think so. Depends what website you go to who likes who more.

Stop talking Yankees, bro. And for those people, Ted Williams career, 2,021 walks, 709 strikeouts. I love Ted Williams. think I don't like Ted. People are starting to think you don't like Ted doesn't have 3,000 hits. Jam baseball video coming soon. Did miss three years serving our military. So, Ted, we salute you. It's been a big Ted Williams week at this office. Video coming soon. Hey, go buy yourself some merch from the John Boy Media. Merch store. The holiday season is coming. Trev's got the lid on right now. That's a nice look. BBD. Well, that's the John Boy Media lid.

He's got the shirt on underneath a little wee-got-eye shirt. You can't buy this. We are going to have some big breaking episodes soon, partially me and Trev living in fear of those, but Juan Soto, O'Tonnie, winter meetings, get jazzed up. Until then, we need to get some people into the hall. It's sneaky Hall of Fame season.

You're going to see more ballots coming out on the Internet. You'll see people getting mad about ballots, Kind of like what we've done with all J.M team, this is kind of America's ballot. This is the one that counts. You know, this isn't how are you cooking your gold glove voting? This isn't Silver Slugger. All J.M. All J.M. Hall of Fame ballot.

And we actually, we did an episode like this almost two years ago now. I think it was January 22. Two ballots ago, for sure. that we were letting some people into the Hall of Fame. And, you know, this is a weird mix because we're kind of a team on this, but we also, you know, everyone's Hall of Fame is different. And we've got, I think there's one layup on the list, and then we enter Hall of Fame, hell.

Like, I think there's one guy that feels like a no-brainer. We're putting him on our 10-person ballot. And if you don't know, most of you probably do, the Hall of Fame voters, you get to pick up to 10. So that's where you see a lot of the discourse. There's some people that will only vote. There's some people, you could vote for zero people if you really want to do that. People turn in a blank one.

That's just turned everybody. That's their Hall of Fame. There's some people that need to fill out 10. And there's everything in the middle. And with the baseball riders, boy, you get a large. spectrum of different views on it. So with that, are we going to do it draft style and then kind of a vote? Or where are you at, Trev?

I'm going to start this off. Okay. Because I know who you're talking about. Sland Dunk should be a first ballot guy. Fortunately, for me, I got to play against him. I got to play with him, spring training 2018. It's Adrian Beltray. is on the ballot for the first time.

He's amassed over 90 career war. He's one of the best defensive players we've ever seen. He has over 3,000 hits. So he has the counting stats, the old guys like. He's got some of the new age statistics that you like, especially defensively. It's an absolute no-brainer for me. And I think he, for anybody,

this guy should be a first ballot guy. and I think we start there, Adrian Beltray. Yeah, I think going into modern balloting, if that's a word, which I don't think it is, 93.5 career war, yo. I don't think a lot of people necessarily hold Adrian Beltray to that standard because there's a couple different things going on here. He does have a second half of his career that's really good. And for a lot of guys, you don't.

You know, I think Andrew Jones will get mentioned in a little bit. You know, one of my arguments that I, I don't know, it's not like I'll defend the wall forever with it, but I think it's an interesting baseball conversation. Go look at Ken Griffey Jr.'s baseball reference page and go look at Barry Bond's baseball reference page. Go look at their lives after 30. There's a guy that was on some stuff.

There's a guy that wasn't on some stuff. And if you're over 30, you know what happens to your body. Adrian Beltray, there's not a ton of bold on the page, Trev. It's interesting, like, it's a little Scott Rowland-esque, but where Scott Rowland was on the fringe, it felt like, of the Hall of Fame. There's a lot of Adrian Beltray's numbers that have him as, like, an inner circle guy, 3,000 hits. And like I mentioned with that war and just everything,

thing he did. This guy's getting in, it's kind of a matter if he's first hall or not. Yeah, that's why I said. He's kind of a mixture of he has those counting stats. He's only 23 homers away from 500 with 477. I mentioned he's over 3,100 career hits, right? 3,160. So he's in the Hall of Fame.

I guess it is a matter if he's first ballot or not. I tend to believe he is. But I don't know, man. I'm going to speak on him how I know. because what else how else might as well be on something and trev don't as i get a little uh as i get jazzed up or you know a little foreplay um i don't know i i i love poking some stories out of you when i can but this is this is a third baseman that played while you were playing so i'd love to know what what beltrade stories you got up your sleeve i just i learned a lot from him just by

watching him like probably one of the guys in baseball that i learned the most from from watching just because obviously he played my position, but he would do things differently. He didn't, he wasn't, he didn't look like maybe a prototypical third baseman how you'd want to look. And I'd say like if I had to say someone that looks like, does everything the right way, you can look at like a Longoria. Aeronado's a little different.

Aronado likes to throw in the run a little bit more. A silly one. A silly one for talking baseball fans would be Brandon Drury. No. You know, perform, maybe not performance-wise, although he's been great. But, God, you see that guy at third base and you think that's a third base. No, he looks great in the uni, of course. Brandon Drury looks great.

He literally looks like a third baseman. Just mechanics, just mechanics. Beltrae's mechanics were different, man. Like real low arm slot from third base. I had to really come over the top because, you know, if you're making that long throw and you're on the side, you tend to lead the ball up the baseline into the runner a little bit. but Beltray was kind of always with that lower arm slot

could play laterally, could come in on the ball better than anybody I think I think one of the things you think about Beltray is him coming in and the way he'd throw that ball typically you kind of take that little you try to get around it a little bit get your own momentum going to first base he never did he just kept going to home plate and would throw that thing and then we'll like fall like he'd always end up on the ground

but he had so much so much juice in this this little motion right here like the little an unbelievable arm great hands so defensively I learned a lot here's two things that

I always did because he did him before every single game I saw he would go over to third base and he would start to roll his ankles out never saw anybody roll their ankles out but I'm like if Adrian Beltrae is rolling his ankles out I'm going to start rolling my ankles out. So he put his like toes into the dirt

and kind of just like pronate and just kind of like get him loose. I'm like, that's amazing. And I started doing it every single game because he did it. He's like stretching his ankles. Here is my one, my, why, there's so many.

My favorite thing, because we got to get three more guys. My favorite thing that I learned from him, this is game within the game type shit. Love this. Runner on third base. sack fly to center or to right field where you don't have the cut. He would just stand in front of the guy trying to see like when the ball was caught.

Yeah. Like he'd get in your way. Defense. And you can't. You can't call that. And I've had umpires because he did it. Got in people's way. And I was like, I'm fucking doing that for sure.

He did it to me. So that's when I first realized it. And I was, I'm doing that every single time. That's amazing. And I had umpires come telling me, hey, you can't do. I'm like, why? I can't be around the base. Tell me the rules.

He's like, you're obstructing. I'm not obstructing anyone. I'm not touching anybody. And they couldn't call it. But it helped so much. I felt like we got guys at home plate because you just did something like game within the game shit. And Beltray was the best at that, dude. So I don't know.

I thought great teammate, all the other stuff. But this guy's a first ballot for sure. Yeah. And I want to present. Both sides. And I think the conversation turns into more of a first ballot, which, again, there's some people that probably roll their eyes at that. I'm close to one of those people.

I kind of don't care. Like, if you're a Hall of Famer, you're a Hall of Famer, I think from there, you know, you can make your, you know, your number one starting lineup, your number two starting lineup. I think that's a fun game. But otherwise, you're a Hall of Famer. So on the good side for Adrian Belchray, that will end up in the Hall of Fame.

War, which a lot of teams still use as their metric, he is third all time of third baseman. Mike Schmidt, Eddie Matthews, Adrian Beltray. You know, gets kind of tricky, A-Rod moves over to third and things like that, but guys considered third baseman and war that still gets used a lot, B-War. He's third best to ever do it.

So that would be in his plus column. He gets a chunk of that from defense. They have him as the number two defensive war player ever. Now you've heard me talk about defensive war. I don't think it's everything. But the guy ahead of him is Brooks Robinson, RIP, and I do think of him as the best defensive third baseman ever. So there's that.

Where things get funky with Beltray, we love an MVP, and there's no MVP. He was top, top, top, five, three years, the guy's surrounding him. Like Mike Schmidt was top five, 12 times. Eddie Matthews six time, Wade Boggs six times, George Brett, five times. And the other thing that's just bizarre, because, you know, when it comes to Hall of Fame,

there's a lot of ways to measure it. It's how good is your peak or compiling and a lot of things in between. Mike Schmidt, Eddie Matthews, and Wade Boggs all had 12 All-Star games. Brooks Robinson, 18, George Brett, 13. Even like, okay, that next tier, Chipper Jones, Paul Molitor, you're looking at eights and sevens. Adrian Beltra only attended four All-Star games. I see you waving the hand, Trev, but...

Who care? The All-Star voting is stupid. We can all agree on that. First half is what that is. Right? It's a first half all-star. game. That doesn't make any sense, so I don't care about any of that. Most of the time it's a popularity

contest. I don't care about all-star games. I don't. Great. They're awesome. Wish I would have made one. Wish I would have made 10. But like, they don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. They really, really don't. And if you're putting stock into how many All-Star games a guy has made, you're missing the point, people. And to be your defense lawyer, Adrian Beltray career, 279,

330, 784 in the first half. second half, 295, 35860 OPS. So he genuinely, if Adrian Beltray had all JM, he'd probably have 10. And a couple of those other guys would also come down to 10. But it's... He'd have had himself a few years of doing the... Oh, sneak in last month.

You're the best. There are guys that say no to the All-Star game because they just don't want to go. It's a lot. And Beltrae specifically is like, Like just a fascinating career, which explains some of the All-Star stuff. Like, just did not make one in his 20s. Only one, like, incredible year in his 20s.

Obviously, then all of his 30s were some of the best we've ever seen. But he's just a fascinating career in general, obvious Hall of Famer. The one knock. Okay. The one knock for me on Delta, is the no touching of the head thing, got overplayed to me. It got overplayed to me. That weird. And that's not Beltray's fault.

Like, he didn't like people touching his head. Yeah. And then they just kept doing it and doing it. And it's like, hey, man, like, get the guy alone. For me, I don't think you're wrong at all. My biggest experience in life that I can relate to this is when Jake from State Farm became a thing. I'd show up anywhere in the world, coffee shop. I was working at my old job.

I was traveling the country. And I'd be like, hey, Jake, nice to meet you. And they go, oh, Jake from State Farm? and man, if people have an easy joke and they take it and that's how they're getting through life, I'm for it. You know, I said, have you seen the Eddie Escobar cat stuff this year?

Yeah, same. Every road trip, someone busted out a fake cat. And it's like, come on, fellas. But at the same time, it's like, all right, we're having fun. Huh? All right, so Beltra's on our ballot. Check. Snaps to Adrian Bell.

Trey. I guess, Bebs, I'll, I'll give you a little soccer kick, uh, assist to start off. Because I,

I want to phrase the question, is anyone on this list a lock to be a Hall of Fame? I think the guy is Todd? He, he is the one that's like, he, he got to 72% last year. Nobody has gotten that close.

With this much time left on the ballot. and not gotten in. So there's a chance we can, if we want to be, conserve our spots, we cannot vote for him because we think he'll get in and we could use this vote elsewhere.

Oh, we're using our vote. I think we want to use our votes on the slam dunk guys. Yes. If you don't go to him, I'm going to. I will tell you that right now. Yeah, and this will just be my time

to give my annual course field speech, probably bi-annual at this point. If you haven't looked at, into it all. The best way I can, I was going to say synopsis, give a synopsis of it. Yes, you benefit from playing at Corse Field. You know, you probably, you heard the word humidor, you know, altitude, you get a chunk of that by now. Guys hit more at Corse Field. It also takes away from them on the road. They've done science stuff on it. Go DM, Enos, Sarah, send them a picture.

You say science stuff? Science stuff, bro. That when they leave course field, A, their body takes more of a beating playing at altitude. That's why we found out Trevor Story was so proud of his athletic abilities. And then B, when they leave and hitting is so hard to do and the ball moves so quickly and precisely that when they go on the road trips, their swings and timing are literally off. that the challenge of hitting on the road may be equal to, if not worse,

depending what style of hitter you are, then the boost you get at home. So, Coors effect, Rocky's effect, go Google some stuff if you have some free time today. And if you let those thoughts enter your head and you look at Todd Hilton's stats, yo, Trev. Yeah, I mean,

on Todd he's going to get in this year because he's so close I think he's deserves to be in the Hall of Fame another guy with not as many All-Star games as Jake would like only five times sorry well so you might strike him from the ballot because of that but I mean this guy is one of the best pure hitters we've seen in our generation I got to spend some time with Justin

more know as you know and you know like he loves a Todd Helton. So I got to hear a lot about him. I'm in. I think it's similar in a belt tray in the fact that like top 10 in MVP voting only three times. I was in 2000, 2001, 2003. I mentioned the five time all stars. He won four silver sluggers, three gold gloves. So like he doesn't have some of these, you know, 12 times winning awards as some of the other guys. but the resume speaks for itself, man. This guy's, he will be in the Hall of Fame.

He is on our ballot. Can I talk about one of my favorite Todd Helton years? Yes. The one with the most bold on it, if you're looking at his baseball references, 2000. He led his league or all of baseball in the following categories, hits doubles with 59, 147 RBIs. He led in all three triple slash lines, so therefore also OPS and total bases,

finished fifth an MVP. Had the highest war. Had an 8.9 war. And it's one of my favorite things to do, and I make the Kyle Wright joke a lot. But think about humans, people. Okay, getting a little philosophical. Yeah, I like this. I like this.

We're still early in this whole shebang. We're learning stuff every year. 15 years ago, if you were the starting pitcher with the most wins, you won the Siam. Like, that was kind of hit. About a 90% clip, I'd say. Todd Hilton, because he was on the Rockies and it's easier to hit there and they weren't the best team in baseball, he did not win the MVP. If he had this season, comparatively, he probably wins the MVP.

He had the highest war. He hit 372. It 372 with a 1.162, a higher OPS than Barry Bonds that season, and his teammate Jeff Kent, who actually won the MVP. So Todd Helton, you might, I'm hoping I can be opening your eyes, which is usually not my lane. But go dig into the course field stuff. Go dig into some previous year voting. and I think how you might view Todd Helton initially

would change a little bit because I think that guy's a Hall of Fame baseball player. Penn to C, boy. Yeah. Through and through, got to love that. The 10-year peak that you put on the sheet beavers, which goes from 97, where is I had it up shit. 98 to 07.

98 to 07. 333, 4, 322, 580. 85 for a one daughter, a 1017. One dotted for a decade. I don't want to get too far into this, but what's your favorite peak? Is it five years? Is it seven years? I think we have to kind of adjust it for today's game. Like you're not, you don't get the same opportunities as you used to.

The Hall of Fame conversation is typically centered around a 10-year peak. You don't. If you're these guys, you get those opportunities. Like, these are. You start to D.H. You start to platoon sooner than ever. Yes and no. I mean, all of these guys that we're going to mention are going to have five years.

I think you're right for... I'm just saying what's your preferred peak? I think five is great. I'd lean seven. Seven? For Hall of Fame purposes seven? Again, I can get there. I guess I'm being a little dramatic.

Five is tight. Give me your best numbers, and I'll dance with them either way. But, you know, seven years, that's, you're close to a decade of a level of dominance, and we can start talking. There's also just like a certain equation of like how good that peak is versus how long it is.

You got to figure out within yourself where each guy lines up there a little bit. Let me move us on Todd Hellen, your Hall of Famer. Congrats. I'll do a double, a double dip, because these guys play the same position. You're going to have more heartstrings with these two guys. Peak becomes interesting. Andrew Jones, who when we did this initial show about two years ago, he was a conversation then.

He's still a conversation now. Talk about peaks and careers before 30. Andrew Jones is going to have an incredible argument. And then I want to compare him to kind of your guy, guy, Trev. Tori Big Game Hunter. You talk about a peak, nine years, you know, an elite. Or a high-level hitter, a high-level hitter, especially for the position. But if you watch the man play, you know he could...

The phrase, go and get it and Tori Hunter, like those might be most in lockstep. in my head than any outfielder ever. Tori Hunter went out and get it to the tune of nine straight gold gloves. Am I going to start talking about Tori Hunter? Who I'm going to see this weekend, by the way. I mean, if he watches this episode.

Hey! What do you want to go here? Are you nominating both of these guys? I think it's an interesting conversation. Andrew Jones has 12 more career war. Andrew Jones has about 80 more home runs. Slightly different hitters. I think there's good arguments that both of these guys aren't Hall of Famers.

I think there's good arguments that both these guys are Hall of Famers, depending how you view that beautiful piece of land in Cooperstown. Okay, I'm a big hall guy. I think I don't know if we've established this. I just think there's so many good players, I mean, some of great players out there that we need to continue to, you know,

make sure they get their due. I mean, especially these two guys, these two guys, I mean, they were some of the faces of baseball in their generation. To me, that's what else is there for the Hall of Fame?

If you have the numbers to back it up as well, we're talking about two, like kind of like generational center fielers. here defensively. I mean, I think that for so long it was, well, did you hit 500 homers? Did you get 3,000 career hits? It's like, that isn't all the game is. And nowadays, obviously, we recognize that more and more as we have, you know, track man and all this data there. We understand the importance of defense and how it affects the game. I mean, these guys affected the game more than any. But, you know,

So if you're asking me, do I want both these guys in the hall? I would say yes. I mean, Andrew Jones to me is kind of a no-brainer. I know, like, didn't even get 2,000 career hits, so like the old school guys are not going to like that. But 434 homers to go along with 10-gold gloves, it's nuts. Like, those two things right there. You could tell me, I don't need to know anything else about a guy,

but you tell me you won 10-gold gloves in center field, and you hit 434 homers. I'm like, you're in the hall of face. same, bro. Yeah, it's stealing, this is stealing a line directly from foolish baseball, but what if I told you a guy who is in the conversation for best defensive center fielder ever also hit well over 400 homers? That is kind of enough. I know a lot of the work to get into the Hall of Fame is done in your 30s, and his 30s did not go according to the schedule, but boy, where his 20s,

great. And he did get years there to compile some numbers. I think if you tell me Andrew Jones isn't a Hall of Famer, I don't want to talk baseball with you. I think we just think we won't like get a little. It'd be a bad discussion probably. I think you're right. I don't know how much we line up on. There's an argument.

He's the best defensive center fielder ever, which, you know, if you want to debate that all day between, you know, Kiermeyer has entered the chat. Willie, if you argue Willie Mays, I can't argue against you. I don't know. I didn't watch as many Willie highlights as I, as I've liked. I've seen one.

If Kevin Kirymyr was hitting 50 homers a year, don't you think like this guy is incredible? Right. I've been jazzed up for the Yanks to sign Kevin Kiermeyer for him to hit a 727 OPS next year. That, yeah, I brought up Andrew Jones on the initial show two years ago. I think it is, he's a guy that definitely deserves

to be in the Hall of Fame. And a reminder, you know, there is going to be a day when John Boy Media opens up a hall of ball. And that's got Kenny Lofton, that's got Trevor Plouffe, that's got Bernie Williams. How do you tell the story of the Yankees in centerfield without Bernie Williams?

It's disgusting. He switch hit anyways. Tori Hunter, who also, by the way, has identified his peak years. It did like, I gasped a little. He has, if you watched Tori Hunter play And you wanted to join that conversation

Of best defender center fielder's ever I'd hear you out on Tori if you watched him But this is where baseball gets silly Trev Because Tori Hunter career defensive war He got he has four That doesn't feel right to me Where Andrew Jones has 24 So Andrew Jones

who has 12 more career war than Tori Hunter, if you shifted your defensive war metrics, which we still don't have figured out, reminder, and Andrew Jones was playing in the 90s, so I still don't really get how we did his defensive war. If you instantly snapped your fingers and made Tori Hunter's career defensive war 15, he'd basically have the same war as Andrew Jones,

and it doesn't change the way I think about Tori Hunter as a baseball player so you start to enter a very weird area of how do we really measure these guys and I don't know and the sick part of it is and I know you have to look this man in the fence look this man in the fence yeah excuse me you might wish there's a fence between you I think the easy argument is Tori Hunter is not a Hall of Famer and Andrew Jones is

yes because of the homers or because of the defensive war. I think you just shit on defensive war. I think homers and then it turns into war, which is crazy. What about hits? Tori's way closer to 3,000 hits than Andrew Jones. I love hits. Hits matter.

Hits do matter. I'm texting our shirt store right now. Hits matter. Yes, they do. Done. Done. Hits, they matter. Fucking Kenny.

I will say this about defensive war because I feel like, war in general you use it if it supports your argument and you don't and you shit on it if it doesn't support your argument it's kind of how baseball fans talk about war and you're right defense war how I believe this is how they go back they just go back and look at video and they see where you're setting up and they see whether you catch the ball I'm I think that is part of the equation guys sitting around watching old film did that work so that's interesting to me not I'm not saying one way or the other. To me, yeah, it's, again, you're right. If you watch Torrey play center field,

he kind of, he didn't change the game in center field, like changed the game in general, but like, was there anybody better at the time? For nine years? He's got nine years. It seemed like he made home run robberies expected.

It kind of felt like baseball. Hall of, please. Hall of fame. Yeah. All the fame. Tori, and I don't know if we need to, I think it's different for everybody.

Tori was famous, dude. Like, Tori was cool, and he was, like, growing the game that way, too, off the field. Like, he has hilarious, he has a meme from one of his commercials. Like, like, I don't know. I'm in on Tori.

I do agree with you. Like, if you just told me Tori Hunter's defensive war was 50, but yeah, sure. Right? Like, okay. I check both of these guys. If you're asking me, I check both of them.

I'm gonna text fucking Jolly Olive right now. I'm hot. The Duncan is slapping today. We're getting a hits matter shirt. And you know it's a game I want to play on J.M. Baseball? Guess this player's career defensive. I like that.

I like that. Listen, the way I said Andrew Jones, if you're talking about one of the best, defensive center fielders plus he get 450 home runs right that's what we talked about or whatever it was 477 yeah 434 is is his final home run I'm seeing same whatever yeah well say that about him and you're like wow okay that sounds like a whole off a me you could say the same thing about tory hunter oh this guy um won nine gold gloves in a row and he also had over 2400 crew hits and over 350 homers you'd like yeah some some of the kids watching this video might remember late

career right field Tori Hunter for the sake of just pointing out the stat. All nine of those are center field gold gloves. All of them. I just checked. Ooh, that's a great point. It was outfield. There's to stick around in the outfield so long, like, as Tori did. Is that where it got dragged down? I don't know, man.

I'm about to get hot over here because I just sorted players by offensive war. And again, Bernie Williams is a top 10 centerfielder, offensive war. Never got the conversation he needed. Mickey Mantle has a negative defense. We're not just tell you any old bird I've told you said that guy used to cover ground like anyone you've ever seen So I don't know man I don't know We lost Tori Hunter lost approximately like five or six defensive war according to baseball reference

Over the last four years of his career So I don't know add it on I don't know like that's where We've become so comfortable with this stuff without acknowledging kind of what it really is. And I know we talked about doing draft. I think draft style is out because part of my setup for this was there's a center fielder with more war above them.

Carlos Beltran, dude. Go look at that cat's resume. Go look at that cat's resume. I'm checking yes on Carlos Beltran. You have to if we're considering for what? These two. No, I am. I mean, you got Andrew.

If you like Tori, you have to like Beltron. I'm in on Beltran. He got, he's been on the ballot and was shamed. This is not his first year. Last year was his first year, right? I believe last year was the first year, yes. So he got a little shamed for being part of the Astros scandal, which is, you know, these baseball riders,

they love the whole people accountable except themselves. So I think that was, you know, know, a reason why some of his numbers, percentage-wise, weren't there. But yeah, the numbers support that. I'm also, I want to cast my vote for him. So I think that brings our grand total to five so far. Okay. I don't know if we, are we going to go into all these numbers all the time?

I don't think so. I don't think so. I just think people... You can pivot at the end and make a tough decision to take a guy off if we're feeling like we're at a limit. Go look at Beltran on paper. Go look at the stolen bases. Go look at his home runs.

Like that dude played defense too. If you want to make up... If you want to make up some trivia questions with your buddies and you want to combine homers and stolen bases, Beltron probably makes that trivia. And if you saw this baseball season, stolen bases matter. I just made a whole new shirt collection.

Hits matter. Stolen bases matter. I guess I am passionate about this stuff, Trev. I don't know. Reproducing. Producing RBI's babies Bodies and babies matter New shirt

I mean RBIs do matter It's circumstantial and reliant on your teammates There's A shadow looming over baseball Treve I don't know you've heard about this The steroid era Part of the reason a lot of people are out on this conversation In total

In all of it is because it often comes down to this. It becomes steroid day every year. I guess that's a good point. Where does our collective mind lie on steroids? I'm out on these guys. So the names that jump out on the ballot, Alex Rodriguez, with it,

which a quick reminder, the goofy broadcaster that we like to laugh at sometimes, go check out what he did do on the baseball field. Guy would have an argument for one of the best players ever. without the allegations. Earmuffs for everyone out there earmuffs? This guy was a fucking menace.

He's unbelievable, dude. Dude, watching that guy play... I mean, I emulated a lot of things with Alex Rodriguez. The white batting gloves on the road, hot. Whoa. Led the league in home runs five times.

Did a lot... I wish he was different. Did a lot of the damage... I wish he was a different person. Did a lot of the damage at shortstop to 11. no shortstop ever did that kind of damage. He changed the game.

Mani Ramirez, who I'm not going to bring up any defensive war, because I'll tell you what, my guy Joe's McFly, who I have a ton of respect for as a human, whenever Mani gets mentioned, in one game, the best right-handed hitter argument during their prime, Just like I talked about defensive center fielders, you could have that argument all day. I loved Albert Pujos. I copied his stance.

Mickey Capps has himself an argument in recent years. There's a lot of dudes. Peak Manny Ramirez, you didn't get him out. You did not get him out. And I think there was one other steroid guy on this list. But Trev, I mean, we're still just a shuner. Sheffield. I know he has some rumors. Like those guys are still just no fly zone for now.

I go back and forth on this, I think, in my head. But I... The reason I go back and forth is you know there's some people in there that use performance-enhancing drugs. They just weren't really called performance-enhancing drugs yet. So, you know, is it like, hey, you did this, but it wasn't necessarily breaking any rules at the time, even though now they are considered breaking rules, where do you draw the line there? I don't really know.

I don't want to be the gatekeeper. I don't. I will just say to this. I don't think if you have a, if you have a for sure, steroid use, suspension, or admittance during your playing time, I don't think that,

I think that it needs to be like some, something happened to you. And I guess that'll be being out of the Hall of Fame. So you serve your suspension, great. I think included in that means the Hall of Fame is wishy-washy for you. And probably non-existent. Yeah. We've had so, this is the thing.

We've become like numb to cheaters. And baseball society in general, but like we can't get numb. Like it should be a fair game. That's the best baseball possible is everybody's on the same level. If you're using these things, like you're going to get help, whether it's recovery, whether it's strength, whatever it is, coming back from an injury, it doesn't matter. Like, everybody should have to do the same things. And right, you know, you can't take steroids. It helps your career.

I'm out. So I think my official opinion on it is no. If I, yeah. First of all, I respect your opinion specifically, Trev. And everybody like you, I deferred to the guys who played and. played clean while you were doing it. I get in such a mental pretzel on these guys because, like, yes, when I watched them,

they were the best I was watching. There's a whole generation that these guys, obviously we just went through 10 years of Roger and Bonds and others. At the end of the day, Hall of Fame, the Hall of Fame itself is a baseball museum. And I really, I agree, I don't want to honor the guys that, like,

we know cheated and, and, you know, sabotage a lot of what the game is about. But it is a baseball museum. It does feel like baseball and the writers, like are trying to tell me a whole generation that you guys and my generation grew up watching, like, doesn't count. They are doing their best to try to sweep this under the rug. And I end up in such a weird place that they're like,

kind of trying to pretend it didn't happen. Well, I grew up watching these guys. I don't know. You can have a conversation with your kid when you go and you can explain that guy did cheat that's bad the conversation is as simple as that but I also don't want to honor them

so it's so weird it's such a crazy do you think those guys do you think those guys Alex Rodriguez just him and man here mirrors let's just say those two guys right away and Barry Bonds

do you think that they would be okay if the Hall of Fame was like hey you're in the Hall of Fame but we are going to put like an asterisk or you know an explanation of of this guy was caught for using steroids, and for this reason he has this notation next to it. Do you think they'd like that and they'd welcome that,

or they're like, no, we don't want to be included in that? Trevor, you meet a lot of people in this life and the next, hopefully. I think Alex Rodriguez would do anything in the world, including be on Fox broadcasts for the past decade and the upcoming decade, to try to get into that Hall of Fame. With an asterisk, though, not just in it. Dude, he's already admitted. Like, he admits it was a mistake.

He's, you know, he's open with it. Mani Ramirez was known for it while he played. I don't think he cares. And let me say that with its own asterisk. I bet Mani Ramirez would like to be in the Hall of Fame because he was an all-time legendary baseball player. I think he's probably, as you could, tell from his actions. Wasn't he playing ball in Australia like two years ago?

He's playing ball all over the place. I think he likes to games. I think he always liked playing ball. I think he still likes playing ball. And he was known while he played for Manny being mani, which was a level of a certain level of not care in almost a beautiful way. So I think it comes down to the personalities there. And in the hall of ball, there's going to be room for them. And I think in the Hall of Fame there will be one day, but God, I don't know. You think so? I don't know.

Have to, right? We got to move on. We've got to keep this thing turning, guys. How many people do we have in the ballot so far? So I got one more thing that, and then I think I've got a speed route for us. There's two left-handed pitchers, and I know pitchers are pitchers, right?

There's no like, There's no like Aces. None of the starting pitchers like screamed to me. Like, you know, when Scherzer enters the ballot, when Furlander enters the ballot, it's not even going to be a discussion, although we'll have a discussion

because that's talking baseball, subscribe review. Andy Petit and Mark Burley, two lefties who could twirl it, pick it, Really, really good seasons. I'm wearing a Yankees hat. I've seen Andy Pettit pitching a lot of big games

and win some World Series titles with a fantastic team. Mark Burley didn't have as many of those teams along the way. Their resumes on paper look very different. I do get caught up, and I think part of it's Yankee bullshit. I think a chunk of it's just being a big sports fan. World Series and playoffs have to matter because otherwise what does any of this mean? And Andy's postseason resume is incredible,

but I very much get that Mark Burley could have done those things if presented the opportunity, but he didn't have as much of an opportunity. So I don't know, Trev. Do you want to spin that in any way or pitchers are just soft? Andy Petit is a steroid guy. I mean, he admitted it.

So I think that's what's holding him back. So he's not on our ballot because we just established that we're not doing that. He handled it better than anyone. I will say it about Andy Pettit. Great job handling it. PR 101. Everybody should just go look what he did.

Every guy that gets caught now on. Do it that way. Yes, just do it. So Hall of Fame of PR Andy Petit is in. It's a good job with that one. Burley's interesting, man, because you can't compare what he did to like old-time pitchers. Like the fact that he threw 14 years of 200 innings. in a row in this generation is nuts and Hall of Fame worthy to meet.

But then people like, oh, well, Bert Blyleven through 330 innings 15 years in a row. It's like, yeah, that was a different era, bro. That was different. Like, we have to have era to era discussions. I mean, I don't know if Mark Burley is a Hall of Famer. I mean, in the general zeitgeist of Hall of Fame minds. But, like, to me, like, that's something very, very extraordinary that you're. who did, and isn't that kind of one

the Hall of Fame is about? Yeah. But like, I'm not putting Mark Burley on the ballot. I'm not doing that. I really, because we're on a, we're at a place now where like he hasn't kind of gotten our, what we have put on the ballot so far. But I want to say, like that, those 14 years of over 200

innings pitch is nuts. It is. It is. I think, and this is where, again, we could do this all day, so we won't. Mark Burley, I know the voting got skewed, and I just gave a speech about that. He finished top five in the Cy Young once. Top four, zero. So, like, think of what the goal of the Hall of Fame was to do. And I love what you're saying, and we're getting to a point where innings matter more than ever.

but I don't know, man. And hey, your Andy argument is fair that I think we leave the pitchers in our rearview for now. No, we have Billy Wagner. We did not put on. He's going to get in. He's on the ballot check. We don't have to talk much about him.

You know about Billy Wagner. Okay, so let's do... Billy's an easy choice for us. He's in? Yes. He is for me. It was an awakening for me two years ago. He played in the NL all that time when I was growing up,

so I didn't really watch that much. His stat page is crazy. I'm in. Billy Wagner, in. We're all in on that. Adrian Beltray, obviously, we're in on that. Andrew Jones, we're in on that. We're doing Tori for now?

Fuck it. Troy for now, for sure. He's got a decade argument. I had the guys we locked in as Beltrade. Did I say Beltran? Beltray Helton, Jones, Beltron, Billy Wagner, The five were locked, locked. Okay.

Tori, I wanted the clarification on if we officially have him. And Aronanee, I didn't hear. I don't think we've officially said what our vote is. I'm doing, let's do Tory, because that defensive war argument is insane. Insane. Um, and how about this? So we've got six. Um.

Yes, that's six guys we've locked. I guess, I have, let's each lock one and end it. I have one. I want to lock. And I might have to go because I have to do baseball today. Okay, sure. Joe Mower. I thought you might.

I think he's a no-brainer. I really do. I don't think that the argument that like, you know, he only played catcher for so long and, you know, not by his fault. The guy got concussed, dude, and the doctor said don't play catcher anymore. Like, go look at his peak, what he was able to do, three batting titles as a catcher while simultaneously winning gold gloves. he has the MVP. He's one of the best hitting catchers of all time. And just, man, watches defensive highlights too.

An absolute laser for an arm. Just, he is. If there's anyone that deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, like it's Maui dedicated his whole life to this game was like the perfect, he did everything great. He did everything great, man. And yes, he had to move off his position. I understand that Joe Mowers are Hall of Famer.

Like one of the best pure hitters we're ever going to see. One of the best athletes overall we're ever going to see. Go look up Joe Mower in football and basketball and all these things, dude. Like he is, I think a lot of people think of Joe Mower is like a dorky catcher. It's kind of. He kind of is a dorky catcher. But there's so much more to him too, he will wreck you in any sport. Joe Mower is a guy for me.

I think that I don't think he's a first. ballot guy because, you know, they hold that very close. But I think he's like a quick into the Hall of Fame. Gonna get in eventually, I think. I think since the, I think we can all confirm that. Since the 80s, if I'm reading this right, I think three catchers have won MVP awards, Joe Mauer, Pudge Rodriguez, and Buster Posey.

So. That's pretty good. Yeah, that's, yeah. And I like the confession. He doesn't have, his knock against him. him is the counting stats. Right. Like he didn't hit a bunch of homers.

He doesn't have enough hits. Only 21,000 or 2100 hits. The two's a real number. The peak is beautiful. And all those peak years like are his catcher years. He did that behind the dish. Had the MVP years.

I love that man so much. He's a... I am pro Mauer. We can lock that in. Beaves, if you get one more vote where are you going? I'm trying to figure out what my one more vote is. If you've a guy you're passionate about, I'll let you fire it off. I'm doing a little scrolling, deciding. You might make a choice for me. I think the guy that's jumping off for me, as we wrap this up,

um, Chase Utley. He's one of the guys I'm thinking about in the last conversation. I think we had to have. I think if you're one of the youths, I don't know if you truly understand how long middle infield was not a hitting position. Go out there, field balls, turn the two ball, put it in play, don't strike out. I mean, Chase Utley, man. He's surrounded by Hall of Famers, if you're even just going by war.

He did it on offense and defense. He had pop. He had speed. I think, I just think, for what he did at second base and how I view the Hall of Fame, I think Chase Utley has a pretty damn good argument. I mean, that Chase Utley. Touch a gray in the hair.

Silver Fox looking good. I want to say one thing before, I do have to go because Chris Rose is texting me, and you guys can finish up. Matt Holliday, I DMD you on Instagram, and he left me on scene. Wow. He was a guy running through my head as I sort out my vote,

because he has a 10-year peak that is really, really good. If you're going one way or the other, just remember he left me on red. He did leave you on red, which isn't not factoring in for me. Still love you, bro. All right, love you guys.

Love. Go our Hall of Fame. Bye, Treb. Love you. Robotreb on the screen, fixed it. So these are some names cycling through my head a little bit. You get one, babes. Do I want to do my Bobby Abraeus symbolic vote?

It's a little bit in my heart. At holidays peak, a little bit in my heart. David Wright just want to say his name. The nine years are good. That's kind of all he got. It's ultimately short. Most of the Hall of Fame is to work is under your 30s, and he basically didn't get those.

Not his fault, but he's not in. Victor Martinez, great peak that stuck out to me a lot more time at Catcher than I think people realize he's awesome. It does feel just a little short, even though the numbers, boy, are they remarkably similar to Mauer, and Mauer feels really good to me.

Adrian Gonzalez, his peak really sticks out to me, but it does feel short vibes-wise. I don't know what it is about it. I really like him. I'm open to a longer conversation about him one day. It doesn't feel like right now is happening. It's his first year. So I think I will go with my,

I will use my one vote. On the Bobby a brave symbolic vote. Because, God, that peak, really good. A 13-year run, 297, 402, 4-192. It's an 894 OPS over that long a period. It was a good right-field glove. He hit 39 doubles a year. He was playing games.

The war is at 60. He deserves the conversation. Do I believe he is truly a Hall of Famer? I don't know. but I want to vote for him and have the conversation because, man, it is a very impressive resume doing it as far as we know,

clean in an era that people were not. And he was so good. The seasons are funny, man. I mean, there's a lot of five and six war seasons in there. I want to see if any of his MVP voting can be skewed. Are any of those like a weird way we used to vote? Because otherwise it's just crazy to look at. I mean, not really.

I mean, he's... In my heart of hearts, I do think he's probably just short of like, does he actually deserve this? If I had a vote, he's get... If I had a vote and I could do 10 names by myself, he's definitely one of them. So I think I will use him and get him onto this ballot. Let's put them on.

Let's open it up to the people. I don't think either of us believe in a Brayu, but we'll... Don't believe in him. I don't know if I believe in him actually being a Hall of Famer. That's the beauty of how this works a little bit. We'll put nine on our ballot. Make sure you guys reply to the post on Twitter and Instagram. Who should be the 10th?

Maybe there shouldn't be one. I don't know. Yeah. Bobby, there's a couple of Tories. Really interesting one, but get ready for Jam Baseball's. guess that D-Wore, because that is ridiculous. Hey, let's wrap it up. Hopefully we get some breaking news soon.

Thank you guys for hanging out with us. God, there's going to be big news soon. Soto, Otani, Yamamoto. Six-ucks. Kay Rod, you have a lot of saves, man. One day. Not this year.