Talking Shit with a Yank & a Brit - 33. Hoe to Hero

Episode Date: December 21, 2023

This week we explore the story of possibly the first feminist, Queen Theodora! Stayed tuned until the end for a disturbing Am I The A**hole...Get in touch with the pod @TSYBPOD or [e-mail]

hello welcome back you're listening to talking shit with a young girl of brit with me jemma and her kate oh i didn't know if i was supposed to i'm sorry it's okay we didn't we didn't know if I was supposed to jump in. I'm sorry. It's okay. We didn't plan it, so it's fine. Today on Talking Shit with Yankin and Britt, Gemma and I are going to be exploring... Gemma? What are we exploring? I forgot already. What are we exploring? I forgot already.

Well, today we've got a few things lined up for you. Some fantastic discussions between Kate and I. We explore another fantastic expiring, expiring? Inspiring woman story. Oh, God. We're a little tired today.'ve had late weekend let's just be honest and self-disclose a little bit so people know where we're at i think that vulnerability will be appreciated you had a late night i had a late night yeah um you kind of were working i was not doing anything of consequence other than just enjoying my co-worker's birthday and celebrating

people's moves into homes making terrible terrible art um having alcohol and generally just being unproductive lovely and by by working i was singing i'm i'm not a lady of the night but that is not to discredit sex workers who are doing a fantastic job but I am just not one my mistake I thought that's what you were doing I guess I stand corrected there but I think you I guess I am selling myself in some way very high class too like for athletes and senators and stuff like that yeah yeah escort that kind of level very but you had some gigs sounds like they were kind of fun except back to back and exhausting and yeah figuring out how to stay awake past 10 p.m was something we both had to think about and

engage in some you know strategies for so yeah is wonderful, but when you do want to go to sleep, it's not so good. It's a curse. It's a gift and a curse. Speaking of love, let me just take a big old sip of my coffee right now. how'd that sound really nice i hope everyone enjoyed that that's some asmr for you guys yep yep it is um so should we talk a little bit about my little effort here yeah so kate's uh appears to have made some merch. Potential merch that we're still exploring. But basically for those who are familiar with

a craft called Shrinky Dinks. I was introduced to this last night and was I know the name needs work but have never encountered this before but I think it's been around for a while

and it is amazing. And I basically made an image of our show image, I guess, our podcast artwork. There we go. Where, you know, it's Gemma and I talking shit with the Ink and a brit uh jemma looks like a potato and i you know i have like a kind of a witch nose like it's very big and kind of points downward but it is us i think it's just like picasso-esque you know yeah there we go just like a little doodle and you guys can't see it but i'm shoving it in jemma's face in the camera can you take a picture of it so that we can post this to our social media absolutely and we might maybe be interested in not only kind of developing some merch of similar but perhaps better quality but also someone might win this inaugural piece of art and you know it's got a little hole so maybe I'll even stick a little keychain on it so people can have it on their keychain love it well I'll post that for

everyone to have a look and you can see Kate's fantastic artwork I don't know why you're not an artist to be honest you know I really thought about that but I didn't want to like just monopolize the art world and I wanted to make sure other people had a chance yeah so I went you know the more scholarly route and other pursuits but you know maybe maybe now is my time everyone's had a chance everyone's had a chance it's not my fault if you didn't you you know, take advantage of that. Well, I look forward to receiving an image of round two. Oh, fantastic.

Well, round one anyway. Thanks. I wanted to share with you, just because we're still dabbling in it, even though I think we made it pretty clear that neither of us are going to be quitting our day jobs to pursue tarot reading or really let it kind of make the major decisions of our lives. But I did a random pull this morning because why not? And I got a card called The World. Ah, yes. The World.

Are you familiar with The World card? I'm familiar. Because I was not. And it was reverse, which has its own special meaning. So this is how it appeared to me. But this is what it looks like. And I think it's very cute. Cute.

It's a kitty because I have the kitty cards. And it's just the world. I didn't even realize this was a card. And I was like, that's quite, seems quite grandiose. And it is um what do you know about the card meaning anything um I can't remember to be honest off the top of my head well so I'll tell you that it signifies completion or wholeness w-h-o-l-e-n e-s-s not like heart hole or butt hole.

A goal reached, attainment efforts rewarded, one cycle ended, belonging. And this one really struck me because I would say probably in the last couple weeks I've been contemplating my career and whether I've kind of gotten as far as I'm going to get in this particular field or role and kind of what would I do next and like do I have any goals and feeling a little bit stuck. And so in addition to kind of meeting those things, it really says basically you've kind of achieved your desired goal, reached your desired destination, and you can take some time to appreciate that. But it's also perhaps time to start looking at a new journey or path. And it also says this card can also appear when a long journey overseas is about to commence. The reverse meaning is you feel at a standstill trapped by a fear of new horizons or having achieved a goal you are stagnating or

unsure of the next step you should take so i was a little bit like holy shit yeah crazy yeah um and so basically i think even though we said we would never just kind of make drastic decisions based on you're gonna quit your job and move my letter of resignation to my supervisor and i'm going to fully lean into this shrinky dink business. Here I am announcing it to the world. I'm so proud of you. Well done. Thank you.

You're hearing it before literally anyone else in my life. My husband, my cats, my parents. You've just made this decision right here, right now. Right now. Oh, brilliant. you've just made this decision right here right now oh brilliant that is freaky though I sent you that picture of the one I did the other day it was quite a

you had like a full royal court yeah it was like a seven card spread and yeah it was like every card pretty much was a major arcana yep but yeah it was really every card pretty much was a major arcana yep um but yeah it was it was really freaky i ended up like googling everything and writing down the description like each card so that i could any highlights analyze it so it was basically kind of all about next year's energy, what's in store, what I need to look out for, things like that. And the overriding message really is that I need to follow my intuition, but also use logic and intelligence to come to my decisions, which does lack sometimes.

Like what I just did just now. Like what you just did, yeah. Exactly. And very strong feminine energy. So like strong, wise females coming into my life. Ahem. But also not to rush anything. Take my time.

Hurry up, but slow down. Yeah, basically, yeah. But yeah, for each question, the cards were just scarily and weirdly relevant. And yeah, it freaks me out every time I do one. Did you make any, maybe not decisions, but like set a, make a plan based on it at all? It's more that I've, I've got loads of plans already going in my head. And I think it was more telling me to kind of slow down and just focus on maybe one or two and not try and do everything all at once and get everything done and so i will take that going forward into 2024 for sure nice good idea i i

think the strong feminine energy to really is maybe hinting towards our vibe and the theme of the podcast and all the important women in your life not just me but mostly me uh listen to me well talking of strong females uh do you want to hear a story about potentially the first feminist on record fuck yeah i do okay i'm ready let me get my popcorn and burn my bra and fight the patriarchy real quick yeah now i mean what i will say as a little disclaimer is a couple of things um i may have got a little bit carried away i'm writing this and i've written quite a long report i'm not sure how long it's going to take um but to caveat that it is in quite a large font so i can read it so it might be okay uh also hours later

also there's a lot of words I probably can't pronounce so I'm gonna just do my best I did have to google pronunciation of a few things uh I'll do my best I'm not gonna shame you I'm not gonna fact check you I will help you pronounce anything if I can. Otherwise, I'm just going to validate the shit out of your pronunciation, even if it ends up being wrong. So no shame here. Okay, awesome. So I'm going to tell you the story of Queen Theodora. Have you heard of her?

No. I was waiting for you to be like Gloria Steinem or some other woman I've heard of, but kind of now-ish. Oh, no. We're going way back. And by way back, we're going back to the Eastern

Roman Empire, which was from 330 to 1453 AD. Okay. So to set the scene, we're dirt roads, donkeys pulling carts, people wearing fabrics, carrying water on your head, chiseling things into tablet stone tablets exactly all that stuff yeah got it as far as i'm aware i'm i'm no history buff but no cars no probably no cars uh i wouldn't have thought they had them back probably like very early days of airplanes probably

okay so let me paint a picture for you. The West has fallen. Britannia was abandoned centuries ago. Gahal, which is France, was taken over by the Franks. Hispania, which is Spain, is now a Viso-Gothic province and North Africa has fallen to the Vandals. Italy and Rome, or Italy and Rome itself rather, has become an, here we go, Ostrogothic kingdom. Yeah, that sounds 100% right. Yeah. Now, this all means absolutely nothing to me. I'm just trying to paint somewhat of a picture for you.

And if you would like to learn more about the words that I have just said, there's a fantastic website called, I believe it's pronounced wikipedia.org. Interesting. Yeah. And that can provide lots of mostly accurate information on the words I have said. I bet it's fully vetted by literally anybody. Yeah. Right? Exactly.

So many people can get involved. I just finished a book where Visigoths were featured heavily. Oh, really? Yeah. What a coinkydink. Okay. So anyway, the East still stands, but even in the East, the Huns and Bulgars are pushing from the North, and in the South, war is raging with the mighty Sassanid Empire. So some things never change is what I'm hearing.

Basically. Okay. never change is what i'm hearing basically okay now there was one emperor called justinian who was perhaps that's genuinely his name it's just like we just shortened it to justin after a while his uncle was called justin justin junior justinian um, and he was perhaps the greatest emperor of the... Fuck, here we go. Byzantines. Byzantines. Byzantinian. Yes, Byzantines.

He dreamed of a restored Rome, a unified Christian church, marble, gold, and steel. And in fact, never again would the roman empire reach the heights it saw under this one fella oh good for him yep and fun fact his legacy was the uniform rewriting of roman law the corpus juris civilis which is still the basis of civil law in many modern states. Oh, so he's like a law nerd. Cool. I love that. Yeah, he was a dude. Now, his backstory is also pretty fascinating, but we have limited time. So if you do want a more detailed story, Wikipedia is your friend, or other historical writings. But to give you a quick overview, Justinian was born probably in the year 482,

no one quite seems to know exactly when, to a peasant family and was later adopted by his uncle, Justin, and his aunt. What was his aunt's name? Do we know or does no one care? No one cares. Poor lady. Okay, there's another word coming up. Justin brought him to Constantinople. Constantinople. You actually nailed it the first time. It is Constantinople. Thank you.

Constantinople. Istanbul was Constantinople. Exactly. Thank you. And so, yeah, Justin brought him there to give him a damn good education After his studies, Justinian served as one of 40 men selected to serve for the Emperor's personal guard And he was described as short, fair-skinned, curly-haired, round-faced and handsome Sounds hot Yep round-faced and handsome. Sounds hot. Yep.

Now, so some shit happened. Him and his uncle worked for the king's guard, or emperor's guard. And when the emperor Anastasius died in 518, Justin, his uncle, was proclaimed the new emperor with significant help from Justinian. They basically colluded and managed to take the throne.

Again, I didn't look any further into it. I did, I just didn't write it down. Well, the story's not about him really, is it? No, we simply do not have time. Basically some white guys did some shit failed upwards as they do so no surprise so justinian showed a lot of ambition and several sources claim that he was functioning as virtual regent long before justin made him um associate emperor and as justin became

senile near the end of his reign Justinian became the ad facto ruler and he was crowned co-emperor on 1st of April 527. Did you say co-emperor? Yeah. They're just making shit up I'm gonna be co-emperors now. I copy and pasted that from somewhere so. I believe you I just am so surprised that they're like, it's going to be a co-thing now. We're co-presidents. So he became co-emperor on the 1st of April 527, became sole ruler after Justin's death on the 1st of August 527.

Did he have anything to do with that? Good. Oh, yeah. I mean, he did. It's not even his dad. It's his uncle. Oops, he died. I guess I'm boss now. However,

behind every great man is a greater woman. And this is where we meet Theodora. So, theodora so theodora was born in 490 a.d her father was a bear trainer for the hippodrones green faction in constant so pause are you suggesting that her dad basically trained bears to be part of a military faction? It was more entertainment. I think people fought bears in the Hippodrome. Oh.

All that gladiator shit, you know? Oh, a little bit of bear fight. Okay. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Okay. So he was a tough dude, it sounds like. Yep.

He was pretty hardcore. And her mother was a dancer and an actress. Oh. Along with her two sisters, call me Donna and Anastasia, not the, I'm out of love, completely different woman. Not the Czech, not Czech, Russian, the Russian girl who went missing and everyone's like, she's dead. The Romanovs, yeah, not her either, right? Not her either, no.

Different people. Maybe the first Anastasia, though. Who knows? Now, Theodora would also become an actress, dancer, mime artist, and comedian. And by age 15, she was the star of the Hippodrome. And by age 15, she was the star of the Hippodrome. Now, at the time, much of what was called acting, acting in commons, would have involved sexual or indecent performances on stage.

So burlesque. Well, Theodora would have been, as most actresses were, a child prostitute. Sad. Yeah. So according to the salacious writings of the 6th century Byzantine historian Procopius, we don't each know his name, Theodora worked in a brothel serving low status customers before performing on stage

off stage Theodora she might have done we'll get to that off stage Theodora was said to have had numerous lovers and held wild parties and on stage she was said to have gained fame particularly for a lurid portrayal of leader and the swan which apparently involved um people eating food of her naked body

basically oh oh okay however it's unsure how accurate this is as back in those days sexual promiscuity was ascribed to many female actresses and performers. Um, so it's likely that she was just an actress trying to make a bloody living, um, but being called a whore for doing so basically. Yeah. Like they want her to do that because that's the thing,

but also like, we're going to shame you for it. Yeah. Exactly. Cool. Cool. Cool. Yeah, exactly. Cool, cool, cool. By the age of 16, she abandoned her acting career and traveled to North Africa as the mistress of a Syrian official named Hesibolis. It's easier with an accent. Who became the governor of the Libyan Pentapolis.

Now, their relationship soured after a quarrel, and she settled in Alexandria in Egypt working as a wall spinner. From Alexandria, she travelled to Antioch, where she met a blue faction dancer called Macedonia, who may have served as an informer for Justinian. And afterwards, Theodora returned to Constantinople where she met justinian now these two hit it off right away and she became justinian's mistress that way now huh well this is why justinian wanted to marry theodora but the roman law from constantine's time

barred anyone of senatorial rank from marrying an actress okay yeah equally if she quit acting because she was an actress at some point. Okay. Yeah. Oh, it says, equally, giving up this profession did not impact the legality of the marriage as anyone who had been an actress would furthermore be regarded as such. Once an actress, always an actress. Once an actress, always an actress. Okay. The Empress at the time, Euphemia, who was consort of the Emperor Justin, strongly opposed the marriage. But following Euphemia's death in 524, Justin passed a new law allowing reformed actresses to marry outside of their rank if marriage was approved by the Emperor.

Just making laws that fit the need. God love it. Yep. Shortly thereafter, Justinian married Theodora, and when Justin died, she was crowned Empress Theodora alongside Emperor Justinian. How romantic. So romantic. It's a love story of the ages. I feel like this is probably what shakespeare really wrote about

when he wrote about romeo and juliet probably it was actually about them it was based on that yeah okay she was probably the most powerful woman in byzantine history her intelligence and political acumen made her justinian's most trusted advisor and enabled her to use the power and influence of her office to promote religious and social policies that favoured her interests. She was intelligent, witty, charming and always a centre of attention wherever she went. exercised considerable influence and her superior intelligence and deft handling of political affairs caused many to think that it was she rather than Justinian who ruled. Probably. As they say. She's not going to get credit.

Yeah, exactly. And her name is mentioned in nearly all the laws passed during that period. She received foreign envoys and corresponded with foreign rulers, which were functions usually reserved for the emperor. Her influence in political affairs was decisive, as seen in the Nika revolt of January 532, which is basically, so the green and the blue parties were like the two. Republican and democratic. Yeah, basically. But they were also... the Green and the Blue parties were like the two. Republican and Democratic. Yeah, basically.

But they were also. The Greens and the Labour. Yeah. But they were also the like teams that played against each other in the Hippodrome as well. So it was like a kind of sporting and political thing. Very Harry Potter-ish in the Blue team and the Green team. Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. Exactly, yeah. But in the Nika revolt, basically, the blues and the greens united in their opposition to the government to set up a rival emperor.

What color did they make, though? Ah, well, no one has said. What did blue and green make? I mean, a blue-green or a green-blue. Oh, Matiel, I don't know. It was the turquoise team. Yeah, there we go. Perfect. So Justinian's advisors urged him to flee when this was happening, but Theodora advised him to say and save his empire, interrupting the emperor and his council to say,

My lords, the present occasion is too serious for me to allow me to follow the Well, Kate Winslet would probably play her. Exactly, yeah. Okay. My lords, the present occasion is too serious to allow me to follow the convention that a woman should not speak in man's counsel. Those whose interests are threatened by extreme danger should think only of the wisest course of action, not of conventions. In my opinion, flight is not the right course, even if it should bring us to safety. It is impossible for a person having been born into this world not to die, but for one who has reigned, it is intolerable to be a fugitive. May I never be deprived of this purple robe, and may I never see the day when those who meet me do not call me empress. If you wish to save yourself, my lord, then there is no difficulty. We are rich. Over there there is sea, and yonder there are ships. Yet reflect for

a moment, whether, when you have once escaped to a place of security, would you not gladly exchange such safety for death? As me, I agree with the adage that the royal purple is the noblest shroud girl can speak yeah bringing it into modern parlance she basically is like okay bros let me talk because listening to all you dudes has gotten us nowhere. And if you want to be a bunch of bitches and cowards, then there's the door. But me, we need to change it up, do something we haven't done before. Exactly.

And fight this out. I did not come from sex working to Empress for nothing. If you think I'm going to wear something that isn't purple or a robe then you've got another thing coming, sir. Exactly. And this speech motivated the men

including Justinian and he ordered his loyal troops to attack the demonstrators in the Hippodrome resulting in the deaths of over 30,000 civilian rebels. Although some historians believe this number to be closer to 80,000.

So they essentially just went and slaughtered loads of people. I read another thing that said they went in and cut them to pieces. So that's nice. I guess I know why there's like differing opinions, but why is it that some are like, no, it's got to be more like 80. Like what information do they have that makes them think that, that there can't be just an agreement that we're going to say they chopped 80,000 people to pieces. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, people clearly didn't write down much because a lot of what I read was like, someone says this and the other person says this. So I'm like, okay. Meet in the middle, we'll say 50.

Yeah. She also married off family members while she was ruling to like previous emperor's offspring. Her sister married the general Citus, her niece Sophia to Justinian's nephew, Justin II, who would then succeed the throne. So she kind of, it's like the game of thrones she started marrying off all her daughters and family members positions of power and making strategic moves yeah exactly i mean she's playing the game you can't be mad about it

hate the player or hate the game not the player or whatever um now here's where it gets cool so she was also one of the first rulers to recognise women's rights, passing strict laws to prohibit the traffic in young girls and altering the divorce laws to give greater benefits to women. She would also buy girls who had been sold into prostitution, freeing them and providing them with a future. And she created a convent where the ex-prostitutes could support themselves. As well as helping ex-prostitutes or sex workers, I should say, Theodora tried to eradicate all prostitution altogether. In 528, Theodora and

Justinian ordered the closure of all the brothels and the arrest of their keepers and procurers. She paid their owners back the purchase fee, freeing the prostitutes from their captivity to facilitate the start of their new lives. She supplied the liberated women with clothing and gifted each of them a gold namisma. Gold goose, we'll just say yeah okay a gold thing interesting something that probably could make it so they didn't need to go back to prostitution right because that's what i was thinking is like criminalizing it with great intentions is great but usually it's kind of like you're actually making it worse for the sex workers so so it sounds like she's like not only am i going to criminalize this

so people don't do it but i'm also going to make sure you guys don't need it exactly great good for her well done theo dora dora dory i'm not sure what her nickname's gonna be um justinian and theodora's legislations also expanded the rights of women in divorce and property ownership. They removed the death penalty. Oh, no, sorry. They did not do that. They enforced the death penalty for rape, forbade exposure of unwanted infants, and gave mothers some guardianship rights over their children and forbade the killing of a wife

who committed adultery. Oh. So she's all about protecting them women. During her and her husband's reign, Constantine Palopo was rebuilt and reformed to become the most splendid city the world has seen for centuries. And she was a big part in that. She also worked on religious policy. So her and her husband were part of two different Christian sects.

Justinian was a Chalcedonian and she was a monophysite. Never heard of it. Oh, yeah. No, you're right. That is how you say it. Cool. Thank you. So it's alleged that Theodora worked hard against Justinian support

of the Chalcedonian Christianity, but others suggest they were just pretending to oppose each other. So again, who knows? It's just a little kink they had yeah um so dory also founded a maya for site monastery and provided shelter in the palace for mayas fight leaders who faced opposition from the majority of calcedonian christians she hid one dude in her quarters until she died and persistently provided sanctuary for persecuted monophysites within the palace, accommodating such a huge number of monks that in one incident, several hundred gathered in a grand chamber, causing the floor to collapse.

Our nightmare. Literally. There's too many people. When Pope Timothy III of Alexandra died, Theodora enlisted the help of the Augustal Prefect and the Duke of Egypt to make Theodosius the new pope. So basically, she outmaneuvered her husband who wanted a Chalcedonian successor. The Monophysites believed Theodora's influence on Justinian was so strong that after her death, he worked to bring harmony between the Monophysites

and the Chalcedonian Christians and kept his promise to protect her little community of Miaphysite refugees in the Homistus Palace. I was going to say Hummus. In the Hummus Palace. In the Hummus Palace. So Theodora died on the 28th of June 548

at age 48 although other sources say 51 so we're not sure. And she died of cancer or gangrene. Again the records are sketchy so no one really knows well if anything she lied about her age as women have to do sometimes because we lose our value as we get older and maybe it was both cancer and gangrene exactly it could have been in those times you know yeah cancer is gangrene yeah. Side note, Justinian lived till he was 84.

Of course. Which in those days. Unheard of. Unheard of. Yeah. So. Maybe he was dead and like they just propped him up. Maybe.

Like a weekend at Bernie's scenario. Yeah. It's too bad she couldn't outlive him though. Yeah. That is a shame shame because she was awesome but that is the tale of possibly the first feminist queen theodora who liberated women and sex workers and smarter than her husband was smarter than her husband yeah i just looked up a picture of her though you know it's like a mosaic and so obviously her likeness rather than like oh yeah here's a selfie um but yeah she looks pretty cool i mean yeah there's another picture i found as well and she looks stunning in that.

And to be honest, you know, I'm sure she did a lot more. I started watching loads of YouTube videos on it. I've read various articles and historical pages, and I've kind of just smushed it all into one. You examined the tomes, the stone tablets that documented some of this, even though they were weathered. Yeah. Like this one, she looks like a badass.

Oh, yeah. I just scrolled through that one. Very, I mean, very kind of Cleopatra vibes a little bit, to be honest. Yeah. So I've never heard of her. And I have like only kind of seventh grade U.s not u.s history but seven seventh grade history world history like knowledge about constant constantinople and that empire and that it was very kind of thriving and significant even though it was, you know, a couple years ago. And it is so interesting hearing about how there was so much progressive, like, kind

of ideology back then in some ways when you would think it was kind of like women, property, no rights. And then we have someone like her who's kind of like, this is actually really fucked up. So I'm going to do something about it. And it kind of went on a roller coaster for me when she was talking, when you were talking about all the things she did regarding laws and stuff. And I'm like, I mean, she's in a position of power. I get it, you know, and I'm kind of like, but, you know, we're also talking a lot of shit about all the men who are in those positions and the shit they do.

So I'm super glad to hear that she was kind of like, also, I'm going to use this position to, you know, advance some things that I think are really important for, you know, women. Yeah. And marginalized communities. And so, like, good for her. Exactly. top lower class women she would fuck up any higher class women that threatened her position and she was quite a hard bitch when it came to that yeah but you know girl's gonna do what she's gonna do i mean the reality is people probably were coming for her all the time you know like

it's kind of dog eat dog like i'm gonna be the new mistress slash whatever and take your man and yeah so like i said hate the sin not the sinner you know it so what made you uh like choose her how did you come across her in terms of like wanting to talk about her as an inspiring woman she was recommended by silas so shout out silas thanks silas um he mentioned her to me quite a while ago and i've had it on my notes and i was looking through today and i thought oh she'd be good good call appreciate love when we have some friends of the pod giving us suggestions. It's great. So I'm sorry, Silas, for mispronouncing everything.

I'm probably doing a very poor job. But, you know, I did my best in the hour that I wrote that report. I mean, let us know if we need to correct anything, Silas. Or if you know any more fun facts about her let us know drop it in yeah I I bet she knew how to use a menstrual cup too just saying she probably invented the menstrual cup probably well nicely done I I dug that that was also I like kind of a big pivot from who we talked about last time and Ruby and kind of the just the time frame and vibes and stuff. But there was also you said something and it made me think back to Ruby for a second.

Just her parents maybe sending her somewhere for or no, Justin, Justinian. It going like there's this whole we got gotta go somewhere else to get you a better education and I just think that's really interesting that that is always always happening somewhere else somewhere else is better

than here so we gotta go there and it's like why can't everywhere just be good for everybody and I mean it's still happening now with you know

refugees and migrants trying to yeah come over to the UK just to live a better life and get a better education everybody just wants to live everyone should the UK just to live a better life. Everybody just wants to live. Everyone should just be able to live.

Live and let live. Why can't we just live our lives? Because somehow that infringes on someone else's rights, I guess. I don't know. I don't understand it. I don't either, to be honest. But cheers to Theodora. Well done, Dory.

Cheers. Cheers. Nice one. Inspiring woman in the books for the day. Do we got a, am I the asshole or? Yeah, I've got a marriage-related one, actually, which could tie in quite nicely. Yeah, let's hear it. This one's pretty cut and dry, I think.

But we'll see your opinion on it. Am I the asshole if I cancelled my wedding because of my fiancé's family tradition? Okay. This is going to be horrifying. Yeah, a little bit. Is the tradition horrifying? Okay, cool.

My fiancé informed me that in his family they do a bedding ceremony. Yep. I know. That type of ceremony where the family watches the two newlyweds have sex to see if they actually have sex. I've heard about this when I've read medieval books when I was younger, but I never knew that people still did this. It's not common for me to hear or see about it. My fiance and I are both 25, so pretty young to be getting married, but we have been together for five years. I felt really uncomfortable when he told me this because it's just weird to me. so pretty young to be getting married but we have been together for five years.

I felt really uncomfortable when he told me this because it's just weird to me. My fiance said that it would be fine and that it would end soon. Would I be overreacting if I cancelled the wedding? I don't even feel safe around him after that comment because he shouldn't be agreeing with them but I have to realize that this is also his family tradition. Our wedding is in three months, so I wanted some opinions, because I really don't have anyone to talk to about this. Have you guys had to do this at your wedding? No, that was not a feature of our wedding. I will just get that out there.

I am struggling because now I want to know, is there some sort of religious or cultural component that- I would imagine so. We're not hearing because I'm always very cautious to be like, that's super fucked up when we're talking about something that is part of a community or group that I'm not a part of. But there's lots of, I think, religious things that I think is super fucked up that I would probably say, no, I'm not going to support something horrible to another human for the sake of religion. But that was something that popped into my head when you were reading. And I still, I think I would just

go back to like, it's your body and that just because it's their tradition, whatever, for whatever reason doesn't mean that it has to now be yours. And I think it's a very valid question that if that's something that they insist upon and believe in and pursue, then you need to think, is that like a thing that you want to become part of your life and a family you need to think is that a like a thing that you want to become part of your life and a family you want to be part of and can you imagine the trauma that would inflict just like lay back and let it happen and get it over with that is the family rapiest thing like rapiest thing i've ever heard yeah one how's he gonna get it up two what a way to start your married life three why do the family want to see that so the watching thing too is like I've heard of the

traditions where they like go and look at the bed sheets afterwards yeah Yeah. But the watching thing is just a new layer that makes my skin crawl a little bit. And I agree with all of your points, questions of like – you would also think like his family would be like, we actually don't really love – this is awkward for us. Yeah. But I'm getting the sense that they're probably like whoa get it yeah brits abroad get the business done something like that i don't know because otherwise why would they be like let's keep doing this unless it was truly and it's sincerely deeply held religious belief need i don't know but religious traditions aside it's an incredibly voyeuristic yeah thing to do yeah um yeah no i i i think they need to have a very serious conversation

um how is this like i guess i'm making some assumptions that this person writing it now it's because it just now became like brought to her attention but she's with this person for five years and she's just like now learning about this ritual like what else don't you know yeah exactly like what else what other traditions are going to creep out the woodwork? Like when you have a baby, does everyone get to be in the room? Do you have to eat the placenta afterwards? Like what's the, I guess I would be wanting to know what else am I going to be subjected to by your family? That is maybe something that I'm not okay with. I don't think this person would be an asshole to call off the wedding based on this. I mean, I think anybody could call off a wedding for just about any reason they wanted to.

Because if it changes their desire to marry that person, then so be it. But this is definitely one where it's like, nope, that's understandable. Yeah. And especially if her partner is unwilling to protect her against it. Super ready for it, sounds like. Up for it. That's the person you're meant to feel most safe with and who's going to protect you

and if he's willing to let his family watch you have sex then... Yeah. What are the comments like? I would run... Let's have a look the top one is your family can have whatever traditions they want but i will not be having performative sex for other people's curiosity yep that um other people saying uh this isn't normal These people are demented and not of sound mind.

Sounds like a practice of medieval royalty. Maybe it's live in some parts of the world, but she's under no obligation to agree to it. Yep. I hope OP cancels the wedding. The idea that a family wants to see their child, sibling, cousin, etc. have sex is frankly perverse.

The fact that the boyfriend agrees with it is disturbing. I'm glad that we're right on with the majority of Reddit anyway. Yeah, it's very old-fashioned, isn't it? I mean, old-fashioned isn't it i mean i've heard of them like yeah old-fashioned is where something borrowed something blue something old something new

this is yeah one you know a few steps further yeah yeah fuck you're not the asshole no you know you want baby love it yeah that one um that's gonna stick with me for a little while sorry that's okay fuel for you maybe maybe it is like hey guess what guys there are still people out there who think that they need to watch couples consummate their marriage on their wedding night and if there's people out there who are aware of um cultures religions that like this is what they do tell us tell us why i'm curious to know why like the watching part is important because, um, and like, I guess the more about that particular group, community, whatever belief

system, um, because I, I'm going to probably still be confused about why watching is important, but I guess just for my own educational purposes, I would like be curious to learn more even if i don't agree with it well from the comments people are saying this happened during medieval times because it was their tradition and they wanted to prove the newlyweds had sex even the bishop had to be inside the room to bless them so there is a history behind it um but yeah i'm just gonna google religions that require okay strangest tradition of all witnessing a marriage consummation the practice seems very strange but having witnesses at the marriage bed to make sure the marriage was consummated was indeed practiced during the Middle Ages.

Okay, so it is actually – it stems from – well, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but the immediate thing I'm seeing on Google is that this is a thing that just like royalty did back in the day. And I'm kind of like, I mean, you guys of royal blood is this uh is this like one of the uk royals who's getting married soon even if they're of lesser nobility like are we talking about i don't can't remember any of their names but one of the unmet wed cousins yeah this person says coercion equals rape in this situation gang rape essentially I would agree with that I don't think that's actually too extreme so because it's just

my guess is if she's like well I don't consent to this so I guess we're not having sex and the marriage isn't consummated and then they're not married and then why go through it at all I don't know I could see why she'd just be like this then let's just not get married then so and like as you said like springing it on them three weeks before the three months before the wedding they've been together five years why is it only coming up now

red flag red flag red flag time run get out i bet if you uh started making a list of all of the red flags over the years it's gonna be a big one too that you just maybe ignored until this one maybe was a little bit too hard to yeah oh boy wow good times um i found another article about how this is from the american ministries some sort of like i think ordained website american marriage ministries saying that bedding ceremonies and public consummation making a comeback and this was from july 20th of 2023 so like this is becoming the new trendy wedding thing, I guess. Right.

Well, I shan't be getting married then. Yep. Yep. I mean, I guess that if that's going to be it, then wait until this trend passes and it goes back to, I don't know, shoving cake in your face or something. Yeah. I'd rather go with that.

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, me too. Great. Good episode today. I'm going to already jump the gun and just say this is gonna be a fan favorite are you that's bold i mean i don't know if you my my tarot today basically said that oh we're done then we're complete all of my decisions that i make are going to be good ones. So that is a decision.

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