Talking Shit with a Yank & a Brit - 38. After The Good Doctor Died

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

We kick off this week with skunks & groundhogs before diving into a Woman of Glory story, and end the episode with a game of neutral lyrics! Tell us how many lyrics you guessed @TSYBPOD or [e-mail]!

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Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hello there, and welcome back to Talking Shit with a Yank and a Brit. I'm the Brit, she's the Yank.

Here we are, talking like skanks. That's the only thing I can think of that rhymed with Yank. Honestly, it's true, so it's perfect. We do talk like skanks. And skunks. I'm really glad that we don't have skunks in this country i know i as soon as i said it i was like oh let's talk about your lack of skunks well it's a weird reference but when i play sims sometimes uh my dog always comes back

skinking stinking of skunk and i have to bath them all the time it's really irritating and I'm like that's that doesn't happen here but I'm glad it doesn't happen there just in the virtual world um I I might have told you this story before but I think it was one of the first times the old nige came out to visit and we drove somewhere and I'm pretty sure like a skunk sprayed or got hit by a car and therefore its scent got released. And he's like, someone's smoking a doobie. And I was like, no, I think that's probably a skunk. And he's like, what? And I was like, yeah, like the animal, the skunk.

He's like, what? And it does kind of smell a little bit pot-ish, which is why we probably refer to, you know, like that's some skunky weed or something, you know. I always wondered why it was called skunk, and now I know. That is why. Today I learned. Thank you. You're welcome. Learn something new from Kate every day. Very helpful information, too, for your life. You're going to go far with that, I bet.

Happy life-changing info. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, all right. Had a busy week um it's still winter which sucks had had a brief moment of sun earlier and it was it was almost life-changing yeah i was like oh my god sunshine but it's gone now and it's it's a gray um gray evening again it's been raining for again. It's been raining for like a week. You must have a light on in your office because I thought you were sitting

in sun but what time is it there? Yeah, I suppose you probably saw a little daylight, right? Yeah, that is the good thing is that the sun is going down later and later. Before you know it it's going to be up until nine o'clock do you guys

subscribe to the whole groundhog's day bullshit in what context what do you mean well like groundhog's day do you guys talk about groundhog's day do you guys like pay attention to whether or not it's a shadow or not no do you know what i'm talking about no i don't think so oh my god okay so february 2nd is known as groundhog's day there is a movie yeah i know the movie is related a little bit to it um but not really i mean it's about other things but groundhog's day is a tradition here we're on on the 2nd of February. Pucks Tawny Phil. And that's like the main one. You know, he comes out of his hole.

And if he sees his shadow and is scared and goes back into his little den, then that means we have six more weeks of winter. And if he doesn't, then that means we have an early spring. And he's right about 40% of the time, which still is just random. But it's a tradition that we honor. And I'm like. He's right half the time yeah like and less than half I've never in my life was like oh thank god he didn't see a shadow like that mean like I've never put any stock in it but this year because we've had literally no

snow in my neck of the woods and it's been really mild like we had a few cold days this week and as I was sitting in the training that I'm leading earlier this week, I looked at the window and I was like, is that snow? But when I left for the day, there was no snow on the ground. He didn't see his shadow this time around. So that means early spring. And I was like, good, because if that motherfucker saw a shadow, I would have been like, why is he trying to gaslight us when we are literally living in spring in January? That's stupid. And I feel bad for him because it's just this poor round hog you know that gets put in this hole and pulled out and all these reporters are around and you know oh he's a real groundhog there is literally a groundhog yes puxtami pill

yeah i can't believe you've never heard this before no this is mad if you google it you'll see all about it and he i mean obviously this has been going on for years and years and years and years so like how old is the groundhog or anyone every year through many groundhog ground hot hugs ground hoax there's been several so i just and it's it's quite sunny today it's not super warm but it's not cold either um and it's just like wow it's February and basically it's just been spring really yeah I think we're gonna definitely get an early spring because we've already got daffodils out here groundhog said groundhog said groundhog has spoken um but yeah there's already daffodils, which don't usually come out until the end of March.

I saw some snowdrops as well, which indicates spring. So yeah, global warming is happening. Yeah. Not literal snowdrops. No, they're like little white flowers. Yeah, we don't have any flowers, but it does seem like our grass is, I just don't think it ever died, to be honest. Does it die every year with the snow? I mean, usually when there's snow and it gets cold enough for the snow to sit for a while, it, yeah, it kills it. Yeah. I'm worried about what this means, though, for our spring if we don't have enough moisture to, like, kind of get the shit going again. Like, I don't know what it's going to look like.

It could be a really ugly, dry, dead spring and bad summer. Yay! I'm just going to tell you that you need your seasons, folks. I do. We need to stop burning those fossil fuels, guys. Mm-hmm. And all those big companies.

Cars and the cow farts. It's ruining the environment. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, we're pretty much near the threshold now so unless something happens very soon we're fucked so welcome to the podcast on that note um you got uh you got any plans for a little valentine's Day this week with good old Alan? Yeah? No? No. Not that you know of. He might surprise you.

Maybe. He is the king of surprises. I hope it's more of a prank, to be honest. You hear that, Alan? Prank time. Valentine's prank, baby. Yeah. Now we talked about it and we're non-believers of the

Valentine's tradition. Me too. So we're not really doing it. I have bought him an offensive card though and I said I'd like to do that. I mean take advantage of that I guess right it's a nice

excuse to yeah abuse someone exactly I say me too and not us too because excuse me I I do think that Nigel maybe likes to give a little card or something do something nice which is lovely I don't mind but I always forget about it and I'm like fuck how do i do here you're such the man in the relationship no it's true i am i do wear a lot of pants though so wow there you go a lot of skirts yeah but uh yep it's coming up i think my week's a little too busy and gotta i'm gonna be sucked into training again so it's just like. I think my week's a little too busy and I'm going to be sucked into training again. So it's just like not even on my radar, but it is coming up. So to all you lovebirds out there who do believe in it, this commercialized holiday that has its roots in Christianity, then I hope you have a good day.

Have a fantastic Valentine's Day and I hope you get your dick sucked. Valentine's Day and I hope you get your dick sucked. And who says we hate men every time we record? It was a nice thing you just said. Exactly. Who doesn't want that? Speaking of dick sucking, I've got a story

for you. No, just kidding. God, wouldn't that be? this is an xxx rated episode we need to give an explicit language warning i mean we haven't yet but maybe we should start um i know we took a break last week because of a few reasons of my illness and your birthday and sometimes i think it's good to just go back to what we know with just straight talk and shit less preparation but i you know i did a little work today this morning um looking time god and i'd like to tell you a tale tell me a story of a woman of glory oh my god that was perfect That was perfect. That can be it. That can be our little intro to this segment.

Yeah. So cue the, I don't know, whimsical, beautiful, magical princess music if you want. Whatever. Because I'm going to tell you about the mystery of dr james berry all right so james berry was born in the 18th century and was known for being a successful medical surgeon in the british army okay hang in there with me okay it's gonna pay off he was also a soldier and you know kind of all of those things too and went on to practice medicine for many years through the British Empire, known with distinction for his work. And he eventually reached the rank of medical superintendent general, or in other words, head bitch in charge.

Yep. And apparently participated in many duels of honor, obviously one, because he had a long, successful life and career. And when he died in 1865, the sources that I used described him as a confirmed bachelor. Oh. So, do you have any questions for me right away, after I shared that? Just like a little bit with you? One, well, you said he died in the 1800s, so I'm assuming that's when this took place. Yeah. Two, the name James would imply that he's a man.

I also used the pronoun he a couple times, so yeah. Very student, you know, kind of observant of you. Thank you. Can't get anything by you, can I? No. That's why I'm in the career I'm in. So naturally, your question is, are we talking about a dude here? Yeah.

What's the deal, man? Well, you know, after the good doctor died, it was discovered that James was a woman. No. Tale's oldest time. I wrote that. Done. Right after that line. Nice.

This is why we're friends. I'm doing this podcast. So that's right. Dr. James Berry was born Margaret Ann Buckley. So, you know, initial reactions to that is like, okay, we got to like Mulan here, like a story like Mulan or something. What's the deal? And it's kind of wild. So I'm going to tell you.

I'm in um she was born in county cork ireland around 1789 and uh you know she was related to a famous painter i've never heard of him but his name was james berry um famous irish painter does that ring a bell never either it's not really about him either but but just fun fact. Famous uncle. He was well-connected, wealthy, and heavily involved in Maggie's life, according to one source, along with other members of her family. It was theorized that Margaret, or Maggie's grandmother, who I guess was maybe matriarch of the family, which might track for Irish families. Maybe the women are a little bit more like, I'm the boss here, which is good for them. Apparently, she was like, Margaret's going to... I can't do an Irish accent, so I'm not going to try, but Margaret's going to study medicine. And everyone's like, great idea, Grandma. Margaret's going to study medicine. Great idea, Grandma. Perfect.

And even though everyone was like, yeah, that tracks it. The reality is, is like that's not a thing back then. Women don't get to do that. So kind of impossible. Right. Yeah. You think. Well, that is where, you know, Dr. James Berry comes into play here because they decided to rely on, uncle's connections and she and her mom moved to London to make this dream come true. Also, just a side pivot, don't know a lot about her dad

in this story or her mom really other than mom was around. But what I read was that her mom was called Marianne and her dad was called Jeremiah. And she was the second of reportedly, Maggie was the second of reportedly three children, which we're going to come back to at the end of our story because it's important. But Maggie and her mom go to London because grandma said she's going to be a doctor. So. They go to the big city, the big smoke. Yep. And is that what London's called?

The big smoke, yeah. And is that what London's called? The big smoke, yeah. It was back in those days. Because of like industry? Yeah. The Industrial Revolution turned everything black with coal. And it was horrible. And everyone just had lung issues. Yeah.

From then on out. So not super successful on the move. Okay. Because they decided they had to leave London and set sail for good old Scotland and so they've gone Ireland, London, Scotland yep just trying all the spots just trying to look everywhere

this is when good old Marge decided she needed to present as a boy and donned her disguise or appearance and took on a new name her uncle's name James um yep and it was theorized that her uncle and or his important network of friends uh who she inherited following his death came up with this idea like you got to be a dude that's just the way it is, kiddo. Um, so she was like, you're probably right. We hate women. They won't let me be a female doctor. So I guess I'm going to be a male doctor. Her uncle had died,

which was why she could take on his name. And she was kind of able to be like, yep, I'm his nephew. So, and no one really questioned that because I think enough important people were able to be like oh yeah Marianne had a boy and they named him James after her brother because he's super famous and influential yeah probably weren't many records back then or social media so you can get around that kind of thing and probably you could just have the right people write the right paperwork you know yeah um so she did this and she was able to enroll in the university of edinburgh and started to study yeah is that how you say it edinburgh um so sorry i lost my basically this ruse worked so she studied to become a doctor people accepted who she was not without rumors of course but okay uh because obviously despite making herself look like a man

dressed like a man she was yeah she's small in stature higher voice rumors were kind of like is this person younger than their stated age? Is this actually a little boy dressed or two little boys, you know, standing on top of each other dressed in a trench coat kind of situation? Yeah. I think, you know, she managed to get through college, got to sit through her exams and stuff. But I think at one point, they're like, you we don't think you're old enough. So you're, we're not gonna let you sit. And so, you know, eventually, she finished school at the age of 22 qualified for her you know medical license or whatever md in 1812 was able to pass the examination for surgeons in 1813

excuse me and then eventually enlisted in the army and i don't know about you but i had some questions about that yeah i would have thought they'd do like a medical and obviously you're staying in like well i've never been in the army so i don't know but i visualize that they all sleep in like dorms like in the movies you know good questions um so yes she there was some sort of physical examination and the question is like how did you make that work? One theory is given the well-connected nature of her uncle and his friends group who were, like, kind of helping, you know, facilitate this ruse. Either managed to, like, doctor paperwork for her to be like, hey, look, you don't need to examine me, doc. I already did that.

And here you go. Like, hey, look, you don't need to examine me, doc. I already did that. And here you go. Or they had a man basically stand in for her during the examination and get the paperwork and then swap out again. Or she fashioned a willy out of sausage. Yeah. And doctors were so dumb back then.

Yeah. They were just like, looks good. A little slimy, but whatever. Here's some meds for that um so they're not really sure kind of how that happened but she she was able to enlist and uh i don't know if because of her role as like physician in the army she was maybe given a different accommodation than maybe the normal foot soldiers and maybe like there was a lot of different like the sources i read had a lot of contradictory or different theories about how things went down so it's possible that maybe

even though she was like you're called a soldier even though you're the doctor you know but you don't actually have to go be with the soldiers well i know someone who's in the army in training to be one of the medical people medical soldiers i guess i don't know what it's called um but he has to do the full army training yeah but then obviously just won't get deployed onto like the front line front line fight yeah it could have been different back in the 18th century to of they don't make him go through like basic or whatever. Yeah. Or maybe the physical examination while noting that she was a male or, you know, probably vacillate back and forth between she and he throughout the story.

But it could have been like, oh, but that club foot's going to make it real hard for her to do basic. I imagine she was probably just very well connected and all her family were and they just you know ticked the wrong box yep yep that's my thinking too um and so after kind of going through all of that she was initially commissioned to be a hospital assistant at a facility in Chelsea before moving on to Plymouth, where she was promoted to assistant staff surgeon. Eventually, she basically, Gal continued to just be really successful. She got moved to India before going to Cape Town, South Africa. And then while serving in the military as a doctor, she performed the first successful C-section where both mother and baby survived. What?

That was in Africa. They even named the baby after her as James because of that. So like really keen on it. And so she really carried on the male persona then. Like I would have thought after she got in and was successful, maybe she'd let it slip a bit and be like, I'm actually a lady. Fooled you all. And you have to accept me now.

No, this ruse, as you'll hear, was maintained until her death. Crazy. She was also very progressive in the way of being like medical care and handling of medical matters was fucked up and we need to change this while in africa she organized a better water system and like just treat she was like she didn't limit her services to like wealthy people she treated anybody who needed it poor rich slaves colonists whatever so like she was outspoken about that, critical of like the institution. She had a lot of people who were frustrated with her, like annoyed by her. And part of this makes me wonder if this was how she also maintained it, because she was described as tactless, impatient, argumentative, opinionated, short tempered. And I'm like, imagine what they would have called her if she was a woman. I was just about to say yeah and some say it was you know maybe because like that's the mannerism she tried to adopt to

counteract her short stature and like a lot of people are like yeah she was effeminate but like we just sometimes there's effeminate men out there whatever that's it and to be like respected as a And to be respected as a male, masculine doctor. Yep. She eventually got sent to Canada, where she became the Inspector General of Hospitals, which I don't know if you know anything about that kind of title. It's basically internal affairs of the... That's at least what my understanding of it was. I worked for the Inspector General of the Peace Corps in law school for a bit.

And it was kind of like making sure programming and stuff went well, did investigations, internal investigations. So I always like to kind of describe it as internal affairs for any given organization. So also not going to make friends in that role, really. But continue to like just try to make improvements for the poor and all of that and continue to just be promoted and serve the british army well and weirdly got into some trouble in saint helena and one source suggested it was because of internal politics but she got arrested and still no one really

figured out her true kind of like orientation or identity. So she got sent back to Britain and was demoted to staff surgeon, but kind of just again climbed the ranks and got promoted again after that little hiccup and continued to just work in like kind of advocacy and as a really like respected and revered doctor and surgeon. like kind of advocacy and as a really like respected and revered doctor and surgeon. I already told you, you know, kind of how she was described by her colleagues. She greatly annoyed them and was particularly so when they would challenge her and her reactions to their challenges because she's like, I know best, do what I say. And they're like, but what about this? Apparently would set her off. But it was said that she was always just trying to greatly enhance the lives of her patients by insisting on better conditions for the poor.

Fair. Which, like, I get it's one thing to maybe want to be a doctor and get that glory and stuff and, like, be successful for yourself. But it sounds like she truly was like, we got to do better. Yeah. To actually get it yes exactly um i mentioned duels earlier yes which well so my knowledge about duels is kind of limited to hamilton where you know hamilton and uh Burr had a duel but like I think generally it's kind of like symbolic where people face each other and then like kind of when they're confronted they like shoot somewhere else and whoever maybe like throws away their shot first is kind of the person who is either the chicken or whatever but um so I don't know if she actually engaged in

true duels where it's like, we're going to shoot each other and whoever dies loses. Well, yeah. It could have been guns. It could have been swords. I didn't look too much into that because there's not a lot of information. It could have been wands. She was a wizard. Yeah, it could have been feather dusters.

Yeah. I don't know. Who knows? A duel dusters. Yeah. I don't know. Who knows? A jewel of words. Yep. I'm going to destroy you with my vicious rhetoric. Exactly. But, like, so she, and I wonder if almost she felt like she had to do that just because, like, if I don't, then I can't keep up this ruse very well because this is what men do. They, we have to fight now because we're mad at each other. I'm going to pretend I got testosterone.

Yep. But apparently she was also a teetotaler and a vegetarian, which also annoyed people. Obviously. Yeah. You're Irish and you don't drink? What the fuck? Well, and I actually wonder i mean if her if she

was going around saying i'm the nephew of the famous irish painter james berry then obviously was irish but i actually wonder if she tried to assimilate even more by like being less irish and more british getting rid of her accent yeah yeah but she apparently got into it with the Florence Nightingale. What? Even. They had some beef. And basically, Florence wrote after Maggie died that, I never had such a black guard rating in all my life. I, who have had more than any women than from this Barry sitting on his horse while I was crossing the hospital square with only my cap on in the sun. He kept standing in the midst of the crowd of soldiers commissariat servants camp followers

etc etc everyone whom behaved like a gentleman during the scolding I received while he behaved like a brute after he was dead I was told that Barry was a woman I should say that Barry was the most hardened creature I've ever met so she's a bit of a cunt um but let's talk about her death now okay because that whole time living at us living as a man maybe people are like there's something a little off about dr james but good at his job maybe a a bit of a dick, but got to respect it. She eventually retired and returned to England, dying the following year of dysentery. And apparently this whole time had a manservant named John and a dog. The manservant, I think, was Jamaica, a black man. I mean, there's nothing about any sort of romantic relationships or sexual

orientation, kind of what people knew about her. So that's a good point. But we don't know. The birth certificate indicated male. And I think that was likely due to, again, connections. She obviously had a doctor friend who i think was able to kind of maybe treat her and keep the secret like knew who she was and so it was willing to like be her doctor i think that person signed the death certificate and indicated male um and the issue came about because a woman actually tended to Maggie's body after death and unfortunately didn't say anything. Well, not maybe not unfortunately, but didn't say anything until after Maggie's body was buried, but basically said, uh, Dr. James is a woman. Um, and not only that, I think also gave

birth at a very young age because I saw some stretch marks that are typical of pregnancy, you know, also just has a vagina and breasts. And this disclosure basically resulted in lots of controversy and debate because there are people who are like, no, no, I know Dr. James. And even though it was odd, maybe a little feminine, short, that's because I have firsthand knowledge that he was born prematurely and his mother died during childbirth. And that's why those are his features. Other people are like, I knew all along Dr. James was a woman. Yep. And this debate went on for years and years. And the British Army refused to release any records until 2008 when the papers were unsealed and

investigation occurred, which confirms that in fact, Dr. James Berry was Margaret Ann Buckley. What the fuck? How old was she when she died? Um, well,

so the, they say she was born around 1789 and then died in 1865 so old yeah 80s 90s yeah um and so once that was revealed there was a lot of groups you know and this was in 2008 so like modern day um there was historians and stuff who following the disclosure back in the 18th century, kind of dissected the claims that she was intersex or a hermaphrodite. And that basically, or trans, I suppose, a trans woman or trans man. basically said this is a sloppy explanation by men of the time to explain how she was able to persist because they struggled at the time to accept that this person, a female, was able to be such a successful doctor. Yeah. It's just not possible. It's not possible. So she must be part man. Obviously. God. Yep. And it just was to undermine the idea that a female could achieve as much as Barry did. So women can't be smart. They can't be doctors.

She must have been a man. and it features the small stature, but simply because they thought that James was trying to pass off as older, but was really a lot younger than his stated age. So people weren't going there, because I think they just couldn't envision that being a possibility. Regarding the stretch marks that were noted by the woman who kind of tended to the body after death, some historians have said that she gave birth at

a very young age. And this was a result of a rape by another uncle. They're not suggesting that it was her uncle James, just another uncle or an uncle. And so this is where I want to circle back to the thing about her siblings and her parents. Right. One source I read noted, siblings and her parents. One source I read noted a third child suddenly appeared in the family. I don't know. Yep. They called her Juliana and they presented this child as Margaret's sister. And so now there are some theories that maybe that was like the pregnancy, the birth, the child that resulted from the sexual assault. So there's not really a lot of tangible evidence about that but what did happen or another theory is that following this maggie and her mom came back home and basically maggie's mom was like hey hun got a new baby got a baby and he's like yeah get the

fuck out and so maggie and her mom left went to london to seek help from her brother slash maggie's uncle and supposedly he actually turned them away but what he did do was write in his will them to inherit and that's how they kind of got the money and the network that they did but he was actually not helpful to them whatsoever um there's also a belief that maybe the way maggie's mother presented it to her husband was that she had an affair and that's why he ousted her and she obviously took maggie with in order to i'm sure she wasn't gonna leave her you know and her or even if she did tell the truth that it was Maggie's. Yeah, he could have been pissed about that too. Yeah.

Back in those times in Ireland, it was very, you know, I mean, even up until recent days, it's frowned upon to have a child out of wedlock. Blame the victim. Blame your 12-year-old daughter. This is her fault. She's a hussy. Yep. And I was like, maybe this uncle was the dad's brother too

and he's gonna maybe side with him instead yeah anyway all of that is just yeah speculation more than anything else but just wanted to note that because maybe Uncle James actually was not that helpful and he was a bit more of a prick and did leave him some money but really wasn't like oh you know

i'll take you guys in and help yeah yeah so what happened to the kid um good question i don't know because there was an older brother too who supposedly stayed with the dad but i assume they took the baby because why would the dad be like, if you had an affair, I'll keep this baby, though. So I assume they just got raised. Maybe they gave it away to a Catholic church. Yeah. Happened quite a lot in those days as well.

The other kind of noteworthy thing that came about upon this like unsealing of records was you know one group kind of they started characterizing her as the uk's first transgender surgeon which i think a case could be made that that's technically true but i also think not in the way that we view that today. No. Because Maggie took on the name of James and lived her life as a man, never allowing anyone in her room while dressing, and there was never any, like, indication of a love life, sexual orientation, romantic partners, anything like that,

which to me tells me she was highly focused on her career and pursuing, like, the goals she wanted to pursue. So this choice to kind of live as a man was more a matter of convenience and a vehicle to attain those goals, which is more about just having to deal with the like societal viewpoints and limitations at the time rather than, you know, her maybe believing that she was born as a female, but more identified with male male i think it was more common than we think back then as well i've seen a few programs and documentaries and even

you know programs that potentially fictional where women had to pretend to be men if they wanted a career or you know to be respected in a certain field. And even in things like sex work back in the day, Whibbit would often dress as boys for the men that preferred that. So, yeah, I think it was quite a common thing because we couldn't do anything else. Yeah. The other thing is, is that she left instructions before she died that upon her death, there should be no examination of her body and that her body should be buried in the bed sheets without further inspection, which tells me it was more important for her, for her legacy

to continue as James, Dr. James Berry, the man, because, you know, some people would be like, well, who cares after I die? But I think she felt that I've done all of this work only to have upon my death, have this all undone and scrutinized in a way wasn't worth it to her. So while I do think, I don't think the language of transgender probably existed in her time, even though people felt that way. Like, you know, we're born one gender and then felt more of the other, identified more of the other. Same with like homosexuality that had to be kept secret. I just those motivations and all of those things we do know about her tells me that it's not she wasn't transgender in the modern sense anyways. But technically, if we want to you know if she was

trying to pass as a man i suppose that could be a label ascribed to her but i don't know what the fuck do i know i wasn't there this is just me speculating really um what shame like she didn't write a diary or something i know and this is more of a coincidence than anything else, but it's kind of cool. The year she died was also the year the first female doctor in the UK, like, passed her boards. Oh, really? It's hard to say she paved the way because obviously she was living as a man. But it's just the timing of, like, 50 years after she had been living her life that way. And, like, a woman finally was able to be called doctor like as a woman yeah that's crazy what a co-incident yeah so this investigation that came out in 2008

sorry was that by the army i think the army unsealed papers and then historians, whoever maybe had a vested interest in like kind of learning more about this mystery investigated. So like investigation in the sense of people investigated the claim. Right. Rather than there was someone who was like, we need to figure this out. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, I think there's, like I said, there's not a lot because per early days, there's a lot of speculation about that. And then like the people who helped her, there's a lot of like famous people that I haven't mentioned who really did help facilitate this ruse.

They were careful about it. And so they knew that they had to, in order for this to be successful, really kind of tighten probably the hatches. So it's just like there's not a lot of verification out there, and obviously everyone's dead. But it's interesting because this person was able to live the majority of her life one way and have people convinced of this. And it's just upon her death when someone actually could scope it out for real it all came out but it was so hard for people at the time to accept

that this could be true that they also had to make all these claims like you know intersex or whatever that i think yeah when when they're able to review they're like let's find out for sure let's actually talk about whether or not a woman could be as successful as this person was purported to be. It's crazy. Yeah, it's a bonkers story. And when I came across it, I was like, I have to talk about her sometime.

And I decided today was the day. Well done. Yeah. Awesome. Crazy. Well, Maggie, well done. You know. Put on the heist of the century.

Yeah. I think to the extent she really didn't want this to be uncovered, I, in this day and age, I would hope, my hope would be that if she could realize that, like people would be able to respect her as a really successful female doctor, surgeon, like then it's okay. You know, it's okay that people know this about you now i'd want to do the opposite if i were her if i got my death tell everyone i was a woman the whole time i think that given the era we were raised in yes that would be the natural inclination but i think back then it was

so hard to envision that like we would be here today in this circumstance yeah she's just like i have to this has to go with me to the grave yeah oh i hope she was happy in her life well and if she did have a dalliance with her manservant, John, like, good for her. She was able to get some love in her life. And, but if not, then I feel, I imagine it was probably a lonely existence. Yeah. I mean, I hope she had some friends, you know friends hung out in the boys club telling jokes

smoking cigars yeah be yourself around too my guess is she probably had to hang out with all her uncle's friends and they probably were pricks too I wonder what her family thought she went back to Ireland and was like hello

I guess the question would be her mom mom obviously knew, don't know about her dad, but. Her siblings? Yeah. Don't know. Don't know. Crazy. Well, she could have been a good spy or an actress for sure. Yeah.

Yep. Definitely. If you want to look up pictures of her. Yes. yeah yep definitely if you want to look up pictures of her um yes i mean she i think she looks like a perfectly normal man i guess i don't really know what words to use but like i don't i didn't observe necessarily any well i think paintings everyone everyone looks effeminate right yeah yeah if you do margaret Buckley, I think you'll get some. Like there's one that is I think on Reddit just looks like kind of a baby faced man.

And one website I had had a picture. I don't know. I mean, it said it was a picture of her and her manservant. And I think she looked pretty masculine in that picture i'll see if i can uh send you the link to that okay here it is i suppose i should cite my sources to um getting back to my page okay there we go uh wikipedia of course uh the wild geese.com which is the one i'm about to send you and something called jacquo.com wikitree, Oz, Wisdom, and Lessons. And then a little bit from, like, the History Channel or something.

I don't know. Yeah, that link I just dropped. If you scroll down a little bit, you'll see the picture I'm referring to. Oh, yeah. There's the cute dog as well. Yep. But, I mean, like, looks like a dude. Yeah.

Maybe she's wearing a prosthetic. Maybe. A prosthetic nose. That's what I mean, folks. Oh, I thought you meant dick. No, I meant nose. Because the picture at the top of that page is a painting, but doesn't look similar. Crazy. What a look similar. Crazy.

What a mad story. Yeah. Who would have known? Well. No one. No one, apparently. Until the lady was like, oh, she ain't got no willy. She ain't got no willy.

She must be a girl. Yep. Crazy. So that's our woman of glory story woman of glory story wow what a glorious story yep

wow that is crazy do you want to play a game yeah I'm always down for a game I thought it would be fun to go back to the neutral song lyric game. I'm so mad at this. I picked ones that I think should be easier for you.

Okay, good. But I had a good time last time I did this, and so I wrote these back on December 17th. Did you? Wow. Yes. Okay, i'm excited okay so number one the love that we had was strong don't leave me hanging here forever oh baby oh baby oh god I recognize it. I love that you're strong. Chips is sticking his very scary paws under the door at me. Is he?

Yeah, it's actually a little terrifying. He really knows the answer to this one and wants to play. Don't let me in, bitch! You want me to repeat anything? Yeah, do it again. The love that we had was strong. The love that we had was strong.

But I'm sure that's probably in loads of songs, actually. Might be. Not saying this band was super original. No. Don't leave me hanging here forever. Oh, baby. Oh, baby. I don't know.

You got any more? Any more of that particular line? Yeah, that song. Yeah, hold on a sec. Okay. The next line after oh baby oh baby this is not right let's stop this tonight

I don't know quit playing games with my heart fuck should have got that one so I think it Playing games with my heart. Ah, fuck! Should have go with that one. So I think it, the actual song sounds like this,

that part anyways. The love that we had was so strong. Don't leave me hanging forever. Oh baby, baby. Yep, I know it. We're so strong Forever Oh baby, baby Yep, I know it Alright, good, so you knew that one

I just fooled you I'm so rubbish at this I find it really embarrassing Quite frankly No, I think I am able to say the lyrics in such a way That it removes all sense of rhythm Melody I need the melody, yeah Yeah, me too I think I am able to say the lyrics in such a way that it removes all sense of rhythm, melody. I need the melody, yeah.

Yeah, me too. Next one. Okay. You don't need nobody else. No. Why you never alone. Why you always touch and road. Why you always touch and road. Why you always touch and road, man.

Yeah. So you don't need nobody else, no? Why you always touch and road? Yep. Can you give me like a clue? Is it a solo artist or a band? Solo artist. Okay.

Genre? I'm loathe to describe this artist because I think people have pretty strong perspectives about it. So I will just say

R&B? Do it again for me. You don't need nobody else. No. Why are you never alone? Why are you always touch and road?

I've got no idea. I never would have thought that. Do you know what song it is? Yeah. No one else. Okay. I knew that one was a little bit risky, but it was such a popular song that I thought maybe. Yeah. All right.

This next one, I have faith. I don't. In your face. Open your mouth. Give you a taste. Ah. Holla. Open your mouth. Give you a taste. Ah. Holla. Open your mouth.

Give you a taste, Missy Elliott. Song? Get your freak on. Good job. Yes. Okay, this next one too. I have faith. Okay, go on.

Ashtray. Flip gate. Time to spark it gucci collar for dollar got out and walked it i spit game cause baby i can't talk it

i know it but i don't know it gucci collar for a dollar got out and walked it just don't know it, but I don't know it. Gucci collar for a dollar got out and walked it. Just don't know it. It's getting hot and hot. Oh. God. I thought that one was risky because even trying to say Gucci collar for a dollar got out and walked it neutrally is like. It's quite difficult, yeah.

Yeah. Okay, I got two and walked it neutrally. It's quite difficult, yeah. Yeah. Okay, I got two more. Okay. I'm not sure about this one. Just so you know. So if you don't get it. I'm not sure about any of them. At least you got Missy.

All right. Already going hell. Just pumping that gas. No one on the corner but but swagger, like us. Hit me on my burner, prepaid wireless. Oh. Take him for me.

Already going hell, just pumping that gas. No one on the corner, but swagger, like us. hit me on my burner prepaid wireless oh fuck i don't know i recognize it but i can't tell you who it is you ready

yeah ah yeah yeah it's the swagger like us I was like I know that she also says it kind of like swagger like us more like gas yeah so when I say us

that probably removed it a little bit okay this last one yeah it is more like gas. Yeah, so when I say us, that probably removed it a little bit. Okay. This last one. It's so hard, this game, man. Yeah, it is. Because I honestly don't think I would have gotten any of these at all. Thanks. Okay.

Or are you comfortable with the pain? You've got no one to blame for your unhappiness. You've got yourself into your own mess it could be any song it could be but it's just one it's a particular one

can you give me any more yeah I will hold on I gotta go find the lyrics again, though. Don't ever let anyone step all over you. Just open your heart and mind, in your mind, is it really fair to feel this way inside? I did not help oh hold on

you know that song right I know that song yeah but to be fair I only really know it from Bridesmaids yeah same but I mean I feel like I've heard it a thousand times since that movie came out than now I know it but that like i think i know the the chorus so yeah that's why i don't think i would have gotten that one either okay one first one two three four six one out of six not bad that is an f but f's are fine f stands for fine at least it wasn't zero so nope nope all right well that was fun thanks for indulging me yeah thank you for planning that for me

you're gonna cut this out aren't you you and alan are gonna do your own version of this where you get them all right. And Alan's going to have to put on a female American accent. I wouldn't even notice. I bet he'd nail it. No, probably not. It'd be exactly the same. Oh, that's good.

I'm going to do you one. Yeah. A hard one. Last time I gave you loads of songs that you knew. Well, that's, I think, the challenge with asking nigel what songs and then he gives you literally all the songs i've been listening to probably that week stay away from paramore probably we'll get those yeah okay all right i'm gonna fuck you up with that next time i find like the oldies you know that's why i picked missy and hot and hot and her

because it's like even if you don't actively listen to those songs you probably have heard them because of the amount of times they've played in your life right so yeah and also i find that songs from our teens i remember every fucking single word too. Exactly. I can't remember anything these days. I couldn't, you know, it's really difficult to learn a song, despite the fact that I am a singer in a band. But, you know, Spice Girls and anything in that era, I know every single word too, and I'll never forget it till the day I die. Well, and I think you gave me a Spice Girls song,

and I unfortunately couldn't get that one because it's like yeah even if I did know and I did know that one it probably is not the one that I know the best but I I know all their songs it's just really hard when I'm just like as bland as possible I'm giving no inflection yo I tell you what I want. What I really, really want. So here's a story from A to Z. A to Z. Come get with me. It's so hard not to actually.

It is. I can't do it without the rhythm. It's really hard. Storybook time, children. Here's a story from A to Z. Why do they say Z? Because it has to rhyme. When you guys say Z.

I think we say Z in the song. No, that's what I mean. They say Z even though you guys call it Z. But I guess it's here's a story from A to Z. You want to get with me you better listen careful Ed exactly just rapping

it's got rhyme man yep always well with that no am I the asshole today because I couldn't find one suppose that I'm like fuck our listeners

no just kidding I love you all so much thank you for listening we do genuinely appreciate it and keep telling like your friends and family and stuff spreading the word and give us a like and a follow because it helps other people find us

who you may not know. You can also send in any stories, questions, queries, problems that you have to talkshit2us at gmail.com or send us a message or give us a follow on social medias at tsybpod. That's us.

That is us. Let me know how much better you did than Gemma on Neutral Song Lyric Game. Yeah. We're keeping score over here. All right. Well. Big love to you. Big love to you.

Happy Valentine's Day. Happy Valentine's Day. I hope you get the most offensive card. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I hope that Sean gets you a really romantic present and evening and you completely forget. And I feel like shit about it. Yep.

We'll see. We'll see. All right. I'll see you next time. All right. See you next time, girl. Bye. Bye.

Take care. Bye. Ta-ra. Ta-ta. Peace be with you. God bless. Gbag. G-Bag, remember when I was telling you the other day about how it's hard for me to leave my home because I don't want to leave my blender? Yeah, your emotional support blender you called it, which I thought was weird and maybe a little problematic.

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