Talking Simpsons - Talking Simpsons - The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show With Rebecca Sugar & Ian Jones-Quartey & Toby Jones

Episode Date: October 17, 2018

It's time for one of the most insider-y episodes of The Simpsons ever, so we had to get some MAJOR guests to help us deconstruct all of it! To help us analyze the kung fu hippie from gansta city, we're joined by Rebecca Sugar, the creator of Steven Universe, Ian Jones-Quartey, creator of OK KO: Let's Be Heroes, and Toby Jonesic episode both does and doesn't reflect the realities of animation showrunning. Not to mention we talk about how this episode reflects own love of The Simpsons and what it's like to experience both sides of creating and enjoying animation! All that plus Rebecca, Ian, and Toby tell behind the scenes tales from Steven Universe and OK KO, an examination of what it means to be proactive, and whenever he's not on the podcast you'll hear us asking "Where's Poochie?" Support this podcast and get hundreds of bonus episodes by visiting Patreon.com/TalkingSimpsons and becoming a patron!

Ahoy hoy Talking Simpsons listeners! Do not skip this important message because Talking Simpsons is going on tour. Isn't that right, Henry? That's right. We are finally doing our first live shows outside of the Bay Area. And it's all happening in Portland on October 20th, 2018. That is a Saturday. We'll be performing at Kelly's Olympian at 2 o'clock p.m. and 5 o'clock p.m. And we have a very special guest for our 5 o'clock p.m. show. Henry, spill the beans. It's Bill Oakley. Yes, food reviewer slash co-executive producer of The Simpsons slash co-showrunner of season seven and eight.

Bill Oakley will be doing a live show with us at 5 p.m. at Kelly's Olympian in Portland. And at both of these shows, we'll be going over our favorite Treehouse of Horror segments with live video clips. And again, at the 5 o'clock p.m show bill oakley will be there and to get tickets go to tinyurl.com slash talking simpsons halloween and it is very important that you get tickets if you want to go because we've heard from the venue they are going super fast especially the 5 p.m bill oakley show tinyurl.com slash talking simpsonsHalloween. We'll give you all the extra details of location, place, time, all that for our 2 p.m. and the 5 p.m. show that will be with Bill Oakley.

Yes, you can find all the details to buy the tickets ahead of time at tinyurl.com slash TalkingSimpsonsHalloween for the details on our 2 p.m. show and our 5 p.m. show. Don't risk it by buying tickets at the venue, both for the 2 p.m. show and the 5 p.m. show with Bill Oakley, the tickets are going fast. And that is not all. A week later on Saturday, October 27th, 2018,

we'll be doing a show at our local haunt, Piano Fight in San Francisco, and admission for that one is free. Ooh, it's all going to be a big, scary, Simpsony time at all those shows as we celebrate the best segments in Treehouse of Horror history. We hope to see you there, boils and ghouls alike. I heartily endorse this event or product. Ahoy, ahoy, everybody. Welcome to Talking Simpsons, a realistic down-to-earth podcast

that's completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots. I'm your host, the original dog from hell, Bob Mackie, and this is our chronological exploration of The Simpsons. Who else is here with me today? Genius at work, Henry Gilbert. Magic xylophone, Rebecca Sugar. Gangster octopus, Toby Jones. I'm Ian Jones Cordy, and I'm madder than yak and heat.

And today's episode is the itchy and scratchy and poochy show. Hey kids, always recycle. To the extreme! Let's dance! Today's episode aired on February 7th, 1997. And as always, Henry will tell us what happened on this mythical day in real world history Oh my god Oh Roy, Bobby

Mario Kart 64 debuts on the N64 in the United States The O.J. Simpson civil trial comes to an end And with its 167th episode The Simpsons officially passes the Flintstones As the longest running primetime animated series. That's funny. By matter of happenstance, we're recording this on September 30th, 2018. Then the Flintstones debuted on September 30th, 1960.

So 58 years ago, the Flintstones were born. Now I think they've beaten the Flintstones four times over. At least four times. I'm not doing math on this podcast. And Mario Kart 64, how do we all weigh in on that? By all accounts, it's not a great one, but it's one I have a lot of fond memories of. I think it was very good at the time. Yeah.

And the battle mode, I think, is actually still unparalleled. Yeah, the battle mode is really good. I don't think they've gotten maybe some of those maps that they had like block for it or something like that. Look, just copy and paste it into the new one. Like what are you doing? But for me, I'm a Double Dash guy. I'm not going to – I'm very pretentious. I'm all about the Double Dash.

That is a divisive entry. I do love Double Dash. I think I probably played the most 64 because especially the battle mode. And it was partially because we hadn an N64 and nothing else to play because we were waiting until, I guess, Goldeneye came out. Star Fox was next, maybe? I remember there was a huge drought. It was like spring of whatever year that was,

and it was just incredibly long. It was like the one game for that entire quarter. It's new, but I really like 8 quite a bit. That's my favorite, yeah. I wish they would just keep patching levels, every single level, into 8. Double Dash, I like it, but there's no jump when you

hit R. It feels weird and wrong to me. It's all about grinding for sparks. So let's talk to our newest guest, Rebecca Sugar. Rebecca, I want to assume that everybody listening knows who you are, but in case there are people living in a cave in Mars, under a rock in a cave on Mars, can you explain who you are and your connection with there are people living in a cave in Mars. Under a rock, yeah.

Can you explain who you are and your connection with The Simpsons? Oh, sure. I'm the creator and showrunner of Steven Universe. And I'm a huge Simpsons fan. I have been for as long as I can remember. And I think of all the episodes I'm constantly remembering, this is the one I am remembering the most.

And for our listeners steven universe is a cartoon so this show is all about running a cartoon yeah hence the connection but yes uh rebecca i think um what put you on my radar was the comic don't cry for me i'm already dead oh yeah which i just reread before you showed up and it's amazing i think that was probably before i knew you as a person who worked on adventure time that was the first thing of yours I ever saw. Like, it really touched me just because it's all about quoting The Simpsons constantly with a friend as a second language, which I think we're all united by. And then it goes to such like an emotionally like raw place. It really got me.

Every time I read it, it's still because I have a brother, too. And we quoted The Simpsons together all the time. Try not to cry right now. But anyway, yeah, I love that comic. Oh, thank you. You know, I pitched that to Ian on our first date. No, it's true. It's true.

And I was like, you have to do it. Yeah, that was... Because it was just like, I love recontextualizing funny things as the most heartbreaking things in existence. And it was a perfect example of that. And you made that for Comic-Con in what, 20? Oh, I'm not sure what year it was. Yeah, 2007, 2006? Yeah, 2008.

And didn't you, you eventually found Matt Groening there. Yes, I did. I had it, and I wanted to give him a copy. I used to go to Comic-Cons with my Xerox-stapled zines and trade them with people. And I was like, I want to try and give one of these to Matt Groening. And it turned out that you had to enter a raffle to potentially get a ticket to stand in a line to meet Matt Groening. Then they frisk you before that. Yeah, so I was like, oh my gosh, well,

I guess this isn't going to happen. And then I saw a big crowd around the Bongo area and I was like, what could this mean? So I kind of went over there and sure enough, he was in the center of this cloud of people. And so I had it in my hands and I was like, oh, I just, I just want to try to give it to him. I'll only be a moment. And someone tried to stop me. They were like, he's not signing anything. They saw I had something in my hands and I said, I don't need anything signed. I just want to give this to him. So they said, oh, okay. And I got to him and I handed it to him and he opened it and he looked at it and he was like, oh, I've seen this. And he'd read it on Metafilter. So he looks at it, then he looks up at me and he's like, you this i think i think maybe he envisioned a comic book guy-esque right

creator of this comic and i was like yeah and it was amazing he gave me his card to a to a p.o box that he had and and he said that he liked it and it was very startling wow yeah the comic really made the rounds i guess at the. I remember seeing it as well. Friends of mine were sending it to me. Really? Yeah, definitely. It had the exact same effect on me where I was just like, this is the real shit. Is that the first thing of mine you saw?

Definitely. Wow, I didn't know that. I knew you saw my promos when I was on Adventure Time. Yeah, I didn't connect with you until much later. I got to know your work after that through Adventure Time and then only later did I connect the dots between the two. Oh my gosh. Well, I just think,

I have, when it comes to that story, it feels very personal to me. I've always felt like if I could trade my Simpsons knowledge for actual knowledge, Oh yeah.

I would be a much more well-read, well-versed person, but I've thought a lot about how much pop culture has brought me closer to my friends and family. And there's always this weird sense that if it's a pop culture thing, that somehow devalues it as a point of connection, which I don't think is true.

You hear these stories about people who are able to come back from the brink of death and remember things through music and through pattern and through friendship and love. And all of that can be tied into something like The Simpsons. There's no reason it has any less personal value than any piece of art that you connect to. So I would think about that a lot. And I hoped that it would be something that people could relate to because the depth of meaning of The Simpsons in my life was, it ran very, very deep, deep into my childhood and deep into my personal connections with other people. It's such an amazing comment. I got it shared around a ton to friends, and not always with your name attached to it,

because that's how the internet is. Oh, that's fine. But I had friends who even thought, like, this was a real thing that happened. It's a true story. Oh, no, I would hope not uh and it wasn't actually wasn't until i reread it this year that i noticed like the the doctor in it is ian yes it's true you modeled for me yeah yeah it was like a lot of the places were like our neighborhood at

the time yes we were living in bushway and then we and then you added in a bunch of like kind of simpsons easter eggs and stuff like the dance and homer yeah i'm in like his car and like yeah it's really i tried to pack in as much as i possibly could i was reading it again today and it really underlines just how that is the common ground for a lot of people around our generation and that is how i make all of my friends they all have to like the simpsons because if there's ever a lull in the conversation, there will be something to talk about. And I kind of feel bad for any of the Uber or Lyft drivers that drive Henry and I around, because most of our conversations are just peppered with things that would mean nothing if you haven't seen The Simpsons. But we make it work with our secret twin language.

I really feel the generation gap sometimes at work. Oh, yeah, we've experienced that too. Oh, yes. At a certain point, it stops being The Simpsons, it starts being Spongebob. Oh, yeah. We've experienced that, too. Oh, yes. At a certain point, it stops being The Simpsons. It starts being Spongebob. Oh, boy. And that's... I think, yeah,

there's a younger generation who Spongebob was their Simpsons, for sure. That's just great. It makes total sense. I think I might have been a little on the cusp. Because I'll say,

even to you, I'll be like, oh, remember this funny Simpsons thing? And you're like, that is past the point in overtime. It's not just Spongebob.

It's Spongebob and Naruto. Yes, just SpongeBob. It's SpongeBob and Naruto. Yes, that's true. I overlapped with Naruto. But it's like, I didn't realize until that point, like a few years into my adult career, like, oh no, The Simpsons has a cultural tale with these people. It's like, it isn't just forever and everyone isn't just watching it with the same reverence that I do. It's not like all the 13-year- olds right now are studying up on the show they probably study up on the simpsons the way we would

study up on like monty python yeah maybe i could see that or flintstones i mean i feel like i i think a lot about how we're making references to the simpsons in our work like like fond nods yeah the way that they were making fond nods to the flintstones but also it's baked into the dna and and greg himself is like three generations from fred flintstone yeah because he's like a homer he's a homer but he's yeah but homer is a fred and i think we threw in like everything's coming up ko like in our first episode and we didn't even think we didn't even think about it as a Simpsons reference even. It's just so normal to us that it's like, oh yeah, this is a funny thing you could say.

I had a teacher get offended over Don't Cry For Me because there was a Twilight Zone, like there's a quote in there that's really a Twilight Zone parody quote. And he was like, I just felt foolish because i had included this thing knowing it only as a simpsons quote that also a generational divide that's what pop culture is right we get to you know quote things that are quoting things it's a complex tapestry yeah exactly and i mean now simpsons memes are a movie and then but in a simpsons scene that is quoting a twilight zone right right i had a oh my gosh i had a moment crump with me sweetie oh yeah drawing was coming up in reference to a yellow diamond yeah i saw yeah and yes and i was like that's so new like that's very new simpsons to me

and then i was like wait but when is that? And you looked it up and it was like 2008. It's 10 years old. We often refer to new Simpsons on the show, but that is anything 18 years old or newer, I guess. I just saw a great one today of a Steven Universe Simpsons one. It was the Bart in Milhouse scene where Milhouse says, this is where I come to cry. And Bart says, cool, but it's yellow diamond millhouse scene where millhouse says this is where i come to cry and he said in part says cool but it's yellow diamond and blue diamond and it's blue diamond saying this is where i come to cry and it's the place in the zoo where oh my goodness well how much did uh simpsons influence you as a

animator and cartoonist me a lot a lot i think anime Simpsons is pretty much what I want to do when it comes down to it. That's what this show is, is for the intersection of anime and Simpsons. Yeah. There's a lot of other things in there, but I'd say those are, in the pie chart, those are big slices. Massive. Yeah, it's hard to overstate the effect that something like seeing The Simpsons when you're a very young, I don't know, elementary schooler or something will have on all of your drawings

and all of your humor. It was everywhere, too. I mean, we had the chess set. I can feel Marge's hair on my fingers when I think about just the tactile experience of being a child that loved The Simpsons. And it was something my whole family kind of did together. I feel like every guest talks about how they watched The Simpsons with their family and how it was such a major moment for them. Did you tape all the episodes and all that?

No. Oh, it wasn't that far. I started taping it a little bit right before. The last couple of years that I was watching it in new episodes, I was taping it a little bit right before the last couple years that i was watching it in new new episodes i was taping it otherwise but at the same time it was in syndication so much that it was like it was always around yeah because i had to sneak watching it when it was new we weren't able to tape it we'd be they'd be like what are you guys watching we'd be like oh the cosby show and you know we'd definitely be watching the simpsons but it was later that when it finally

went into syndication i think like in the dc area we would get because i grew up halfway between baltimore and washington dc and so we got both channels and they both had different syndication packages and they both played simpsons episodes so So every night you could watch two hours of The Simpsons between two different channels. And it basically was a huge deal. Yeah, I remember every day after school. Yeah. When I see a ton of Springfield and Beach City, too,

it's a little bit... Yeah, I think Beach City is very much based on a very specific real place. But I think, I don't know, I think about Springfield a lot. I've thought about it more since moving to L.A. It never occurred to me that the Springfield sign was like the Hollywood sign. I just took it on complete face value, like, there's a sign that says Springfield. Now I'm like, oh, right, people were here.

I felt that way about the Flintstones, too. When I first flew here to work at Cartoon Network, and I looked around, and I was like, all the houses have stone sides and these prehistoric-looking Californian plants everywhere. It looks like the Flintstones to me. And then I was like, oh, no, no, no, the Flintstones look like Burbank,

because people were here. That's the joke, is that it's old. But I had to recalibrate everything I'm not from California so I really had to adjust to what it means to be here yeah well all of our guests in this room they all run cartoons and have created cartoons that are currently on tv do you want to talk about your connection to this episode now or do you want to explore that as we explore the the episode with our clips and everything I guess like yeah we can probably do it as we go I mean it's it's very like it's profound yeah it's it's you know the episode is almost like an inkblot test for where you are on the like fan creator spectrum and it's like no

matter where you are you're like this episode's about me uh and so for my entire life i've gone you know from being genius at work uh and. And I still am in many conversations. Even while working on the show, I'll be that guy and just be like, well, we already did this, so it's going to be like that. It's like the episode kind of consumes all. Yeah, the episode's relationship to fan culture I think is really interesting. Yeah, we can get into that later. But I love what it's saying about what fans were at the time and i do remember

actually being a kid reading news group postings of people talking about the simpsons just lurking and just like being like oh these guys are really smart they know a lot about the show and then parroting their opinions in school i you know i'm watching this back again I wonder how much it was reflecting what early internet fandom was in 1997 and how much it influenced

fandom from then on this just feels as real to me as it does then I just think they'd have faster internet speeds to complain to them we are professional geniuses at work the three nerds would be podcasters faster internet speeds to complain to them i mean we are professional geniuses at work and the three nerds would be podcasters in the future version of this episode

i got a spec script i think this might be the most influential well i don't know it might be like they i feel like every scene in this is the is meme worthy not just a couple moments, but I've seen these. I repeat lines from this a million times. As somebody who had the job of being a cultural critic, I use these a lot in waiting for the fireworks factory. When are we going to get to the fireworks? Yeah, we were just talking about this, but in our writer's room, fireworks factory is has said, like, pretty much every time we, like,

hand out an episode or talk about an episode, we're always like, all right, Fireworks Factory's in the third act. We've got to make sure we get there quick. Cut down the first act because, come on, Fireworks Factory's coming. You know, trying to make sure, like, we have those things within every episode. A lot of the ways that the writers talk has totally infected us. Something like Poochie, but, you know.

Better. Everyone good with Poochie? Everyone good with Poochie? We do that all the time. Every day. Well, so the episode begins with a classic itchy and scratchy episode. When there's not blood in them,

it always feels like a lesser itchy and scratchy to me. There should be more blood in this. It's pretty creative, though. There's some blood in the ice block. It just stops just before. It makes you want it, but it doesn't give it to you. And I wonder if that one-man pie fight that Krusty has,

is that more or less impressive than eating the bicycle train? I wonder. It's too impressive to be animated. Fun stuff is happening, but the kids aren't watching it. Kids? Kids?

You're missing their Chin Scratchy show. Don't you like it anymore? Sure, we love it. But how can we watch TV when it's so beautiful out? Well, yeah, Mom. I mean, we love you and Dad, too, but TV when it's so beautiful out? Well, yeah, Mom. I mean, we love you and Dad, too, but God knows we don't need to see you every day. An occasional hug is all I ask. Mom, you can hug me when I'm asleep.

I do. Bart is right. I also love Lisa. When normally God's side, she's just reading in the back of a box, that's more interesting than a new episode of Itchy and Scratchy when they talk about the kids being the audience they knew, when we talked to Bill Oakley and everybody, they knew the kids were

their viewers on The Simpsons more than any and then hardcore young adults I remembered that interview and actually that did strike me when I was re-watching this episode, how much the writer characters refer to themselves as the creators of a children's cartoon. And I was thinking about that interview you guys did, and it's like, were they really thinking of themselves that way? Yeah, I mean, a lot of the background context of this episode is that, like every showrunner of The Simpsons, they assume the show would end in a few years. Which is why, especially in season seven and eight, there are so many status quo changes because they're like, well, let's just do this because who knows how long the show will last.

Little do they know, season 30 premieres tonight. But yeah, I mean, they were thinking, you know, people aren't watching anymore. We're getting a lot of complaints. And this is really a reflection of that time. The creator's thinking, well, this is going to end sooner or later right they're really worried about it like that's that's showing on the show which also is interesting to me because this episode's about the ratings going down but the simpsons average ratings at this time were still in the like 15 million which is about what it had been for seasons five six and seven as well

so i don't know why they're like, I suppose it was a gradual decline. It certainly wasn't as high as it was in season two, but maybe they were using ratings for just like an analog for critical consensus as like a shorthand. You were probably waiting for the shoe to drop too. I mean, how sustainable,

I don't know. I was actually looking at ratings for the Simpsons Nielsen ratings over the years, and it is a gradual decline from the beginning. But between season seven and eight, there is a brief dip. But season nine, there's a big spike. So I believe all of the Homer-driven stuff really made the ratings go up in season nine.

Because everybody hates Armand Tam's area that starts off season nine. Except me. And Nielsen owners didn't. Everyone came back for that episode. So then we go back to Krusty Lou Studios

and see what's going wrong. Hey, Krusty, you look great. You get your teeth bleached? Yeah, it's a new kind of polymer treatment. Hey, shut up! You're here

because your itchy and scratchy cartoons are staking out my ratings look at this breakdown of yesterday's show what happened here lightning hit the transmitter see that's what i thought at first but hey shut up that crater is where your lousy cartoon crash landed its ratings poison but itchy andatchy is critically acclaimed. Acclaimed? I ought to replace it right now with a Chinese cartoon where the robots turn into blingwads.

But I'm a lazy, lazy man, Roger. So I'll give you one more chance. Get out! Don't come back till you fix Itchy and Scratchy. Yeah, Dan Castaneda's panic screaming is Krusty, some of my favorite stuff.

So good. I think Knotson sparked the fink as he hit such heights as Krusty. In the drawings, I love how his hair acts with him. When he's disappointed, it kind of droops down a little bit. It kind of droops, yeah. Emotive hair. Yeah. I also love how earnest Krusty is.

It takes like, thanks for the cut. Hey, no. Roger Myers, they get a lot of great mileage out of him in this episode. And he's a little bit of a tweak on the usual Roger Myers. He's almost like kind of naive and like... He's excitable.

He's excitable, yeah. In like an interesting way, you know. I think this is more creatively he's been invested in Itchy and Scratchy for the longest time. Like in, say, The Front, which this is kind of a sequel to. The Front from season four, he's just like, you egghead writers just handle it. I cash the checks.

I don't care. Yeah. This is the third and final appearance, though, of Alex Rocco as Roger Myers. And he would live for another 20 years. So previously, I think he came back at least two or three times, but Hank Azaria voiced him. But this is the final time that Alex Rocco would voice him, period.

Yeah, same. Bill and Josh brought him back for the two Itchy and Scratchy episodes, and it's sad they never brought him back after that, because he's on the commentary

for this one. I was about to say, well, they brought him back for the commentary. Yeah. He's so happy to be on the commentary and how famous.

I wonder if at one time, if he, by the end of his life, was he more famous to be on the commentary and how famous i wonder if at one time if he by the end of his life was he more famous to people on the street for godfather or for the simpsons i wonder there's well there's like one reference in this episode and it is sideshow mel coming in to collect for the uh rock and roll museum it's really it's really awkward the rock and roll hall of fame's first major exhibit opened in May of 97, so maybe that's what they're referencing. But it's in Cleveland, you know, the home of rock and roll, where it all started.

Have you ever been there, Bob? Yes, I didn't like it. Did you bump into Drew Carey? Oh, yeah, he was dancing in front of that place. That's what he showed up for, yeah. He won't stop. Oh, yeah, Krusty threatening to replace him with a Chinese cartoon with robots.

I mean, that was... Power Rangers couldn't have been bigger than I think. Anime was starting to replace a lot of traditional animation on TV at that point. Krusty got the country wrong, but I think that's just more of a joke on his ignorance. Yeah, it's Chinese or whatever. He also just made up the word bling-wons. That's not a word. I also kind of like the balance here of like, you have Myers, who is the studio head making the thing. Then you have Krusty representing the show that he hosts.

And then later you're going to have the network people and you just have like these three bosses all coming down on the show creatively. I love it because it is that weird, everything's super local, everything's made in Springfield. But then also, yeah yeah any television clown they would be playing like pre-1948 public domain cartoons like there's no way like a television clown would be playing specially made cartoons first run cartoon he has like curative control over

what is what is in the cartoon yeah in real life, you would have the King of Cartoons collection where just depressing and scary Depression-era cartoons. This is our first actual genius-at-work moment. Exactly. It wouldn't be like this in real life. I do want to go back to the bling-waz comment because in animation at the time, Power Rangers was scaring a lot of kids programming people because it was this very easy to import thing that was very cheap to dub

and that is why uh these high profile productions by wb were ending because power rangers was a very cheap and more popular thing so you could you could import power rangers or another japanese show and dub it or spend millions on animaniacs and just show that and get less viewers. So it was a threat to cartoon makers of the era. Yeah, I would say so. I mean, the reference is like very, it's hard to say because it also reads to me as like a weirdly late Transformers joke, but it's also-

Yeah, that's true, yeah. But I see what you mean about the time and the place and Power Rangers definitely was the big thing. They technically transformed. No, that's true, yeah. They just used the word morph because it was cooler in the 90s. I mean, post like Pokemon, I mean, that was it.

I think every network was like, ah, we've got to find our Pokémon. And they tried like, oh, let's dub Escaflowne and put it on a formicard and put it on Fox Kids. Oh my god. They chopped it up. Yeah, it was crazy. It was like, go with the flow, Escaflowne.

That's pretty good. I want to say they aired one episode of Slayers, too. I think they did, yeah. Before they were like, let's not do this. Everybody was looking for that next, it's this cheap cartoon, and we're just going to dub it, and we're going to make millions. It's tough for me as a fan of anime,

but also of American animation in the 90s too they're like but i love this anime but it replaced the other cartoons i like too can't they can't they get along yeah i think the woman off screen that is telling mel to come in i'm pretty sure that's penny candy oh yeah it's penny candy we will see her in brother from another planet we've already recorded that one uh Brother from Another Series. Penny Candy is in that on screen, but she doesn't say anything. She's one of those just lost characters,

which is too bad. It's a shame, yeah. They could have got an episode out of her love-lorn relationship for Krusty. She could have been the Smithers to Krusty. As long as they haven't. That's a missed opportunity. They just weren't into her.

Maybe in the season premiere tonight. I haven't watched it yet, but somebody tweeted at me that Hollis Hurlbutt appears in that episode. I would wonder if it's a background character. Because if they actually got back Donald Sutherland, I think they would have advertised it. The Sentence will be right back. Hi, everyone. I hope you're enjoying this dramaturgical dyad of a podcast. We couldn't be more happy to have hosted Rebecca Sugar, Ian Jones, Cordy, and Toby Jones on this week's podcast. They were amazing guests. How we use electricity can be smarter,

cleaner, and greener. At Electric Ireland, we can help guide you there. You see, our new net zero hub has all you need to know about smart meter plans, EV tariffs, solar panels, and much more. Making your usage clearer, your trips greener, your home cozier, and your world brighter. Find our net zero hub at electricireland.ie. We hope you're enjoying it too. If you're not a viewer of their cartoons yet, you absolutely should. Steven Universe and OK KO are my two favorite series on TV right now. Steven Universe is this amazing amalgamation of feelings and jokes and Simpsons

and anime. And I love, I love all that. And OK KO is this wild, exciting, hilarious series that celebrates animation of all stripes in such humorous ways. The first season of OK KO and the first four seasons of steven universe are available on hulu right now if you have access to that to check it out or on the cartoon network app can't stress enough how much i love that show and if you're enjoying this podcast where we celebrate simpsons and all animation as well you should definitely check out all our other content at patreon.com slash talking simpsons supported patreon.com slash talking simpsons is how me and bob can afford to even fly down to los angeles and record

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we have interviews including our one with ian jones cordy plus ones with folks who have worked on the series since the beginning like mike reese david silverman mark kirkland josh weinstein and so many others you can a fan check that out if you enjoy all this week's talk about anime and classic shows, you might want to sign up for Verve. Verve is a streaming service that supports this show, Talking Simpsons, as well as our sister show, What a Cartoon. If you go to vrv.co.wac, that's verve.co.wac, you can sign up for a 30-day free trial of Verve and get access to hundreds of hours of streaming content immediately. That includes all the anime on Crunchyroll and Funimation, tons of classic 90s Nickelodeon shows through Nick Splat, and even original series through Cartoon Hangover like Bravest Warrior and Bee and Puppycat.

Bravest Warrior even features Ian Jones-Courtey, one of our guests on this episode, as a voice. You can check all that out at a free 30-day trial of Verve if you go to vrv.co slash wac. So we cut to the mall, and I love that Marge doesn't want to buy bras in front of her kids. That's such a very stuffy mom. Using the word brassiere is a very mom thing. She might as well be buying blouses or something, something kids would not be into. I don't know if you guys ever did a mall focus group. I had done a couple.

You mean you've gone to them? Really? No, I've never done one. Not a focus group for television. This was like for try this candy or try this cookie and do you like it? No, I never have. I would love to. When I was unemployed in New York, I did a movie one once.

But yeah, no, never. At a certain point in my mall there was a focus group company that moved into it so you would avoid certain corners of the marb all because there would be people with clipboards like they would try to target you so i love that i was like i want to do this i did like three and then eventually they said like if you've done one in the last six months you can't do it again because i also was we've got enough of your opinions henry well and they gave me 20 bucks usually which like wow that was a lot to an 11 year old so but i never got to test a tv show like this one i mean well now have you guys been on the other side of focus groups well it's we have in that all the shows we work on get tested

but that information is actually very controlled uh and it's doled out to us very mysteriously. Yeah, they used to let creators go to the focus groups and watch them. Though there's a very famous story about a certain creator whose show was being tested and they actually got to go to watch it. And in watching the test after they showed it to the kids the kids hated it so much uh they were all yelling about how much they hated it i think like one kid stood up and was like whoever made this show should be fired um you know like because the creators in the room watching this and it made them super depressed um and it was terrible. But I would say the network aired it anyway, and it went on to become a huge, huge success.

So it just kind of goes to show like, you know. That the children are wrong. Yes. But it still comes up, though. Like, we'll ask, like, hey, can we go to these? And they'll be like, no, you cannot, because this happened. There's like a longstanding rule. We'll walk through the creaky mirror and hurt a child.

And sometimes you'll get some information or a little packet of highlights or something, but I feel like it's only used as kind of ammunition for whatever

the network is needing to do. Yeah, it's true. It's like a Rorschach test and whatever they want to take from it and tell you to support a note they already have,

then they'll just say, well, we got this testing that I don't know. Is there a lot of testing after a pilot? I figure a pilot is when the most testing would happen. Is there a lot after that? I think they do, yeah. They want to know if people are aware of it. So even when it's out for a while, they kind of try and figure out if it's a cultural zeitgeist yet. Yeah, the awareness is the real thing. Here's the first part of the kids in the focus group. All right, thanks for participating in our focus group, kids.

Today, we're going to show you some itchy and scratchy cartoons. Yeah! Cool! We want you to tell us what you think and be honest, because no one from the show is here spying on you. Why is that mirror sneezing? Look, it's just an old, creaky mirror. You know, sometimes it sounds a little like it's sneezing or coughing or talking softly.

Now, you each have a knob in front of you. When you like what you see, turn the knob to the right. When you don't like what you see, turn it left. My knob tastes funny. Please refrain from tasting the knob. That's good mirror animation, by the way. Yeah. To convey a sneeze behind a mirror. It's really nice.

It's really well done, yeah. I really appreciate the use of taste. Tasting the knob. Instead of bite or eat, it's so much funnier. It implies a knowledge of why it was bitten in the first place. Yes, yes. It's like a specific complaint towards Ralph. Your knob tastes funny because you're not supposed to taste it. I think it's like, I feel like he's in a mode, this sales mode,

where it's like, okay, I thought about this maybe a little too much. Everyone's feeling out their opinions on things. I feel like to taste the knob is to appreciate the knob. No, you're right. It's like he's not there to evaluate the taste of the knob. He's there to evaluate the thing he's watching. Right, right. Yes, you're tasting the cartoon.

That's how Ralph is. So Ralph thinks he's being helpful. He's just like, well, this knob tastes funny. It's like, that's not what this is for. Only hearing it isolated in audio do i do i really can tell that that is alex rocco sneezing as in this really wow yeah it really sounds like it and this focus group when i saw this as a 14 year old i only knew focus groups from other jokes about focus groups on other sitcoms like the critic famously they're like sixth episode we did is all about how no one likes the critic other jokes about focus groups on other sitcoms. The Critic famously, their sixth episode we did is all about

how no one likes The Critic. I'm worse than Hitler? Yeah. And they had the same knob in there too. So I'm wondering if that was just pretty much the standardized thing in the 90s. Is it more of a questionnaire than a knob these days? Well, you know, actually I did one more TV

thing. So if you go to las vegas in mgm i think they have like cbs land where it's like go on the csi ride or whatever so so you can also yeah but you can also watch something and just be in a focus group weird and they'll give you like 20 at nathan's hot Nathan's Hot Dogs So me and my mom watched it And we thought it was going to be about This pilot which It was the pilot of the Will Arnett show where he moves in

His mom moves in with him Running Wild? Yeah, no, no That was the one with Keri Russell Not that one The CBS one after that that was a more traditional sitcom But we thought we were going to be asked to review That show, but actually Russell? Kerry Russell, yeah. Not that one. The CBS one after that that was a more traditional sitcom. But we thought we were going to be asked to review that show.

But actually, the show was a trick. The test was, we're going to show you commercials for other CBS shows during the commercial breaks. What do you remember of those commercials? Oh, wow. It was a real interesting test there. All of the commercials sucked, and I don't think any of those shows were renewed. That show ended in one season too. You remember the hot dogs though, right? Those were some good hot dogs.

Was there a knob? No. In this case, it was a questionnaire just on your computer in front of you. Did you like these people? What do you remember of this Tony Shalhoub show? I think you still do see the knob during presidential debates when they have the

playback of... when you watch the when you watch the graph go up and down and then you see the when they cut to the people they do have a knob that they're twisting back and forth like i agree with this i don't agree with this i feel like they're just a binary though no one is like like nuancing the knob like it's not it's not like an analog knob. Tons of sensitivity. They need to get those analog by now. So they play the Itchy and Scratchy cartoons. The pool scene,

this is the first time I noticed that the pool balls were 9 and 6 on there, which I wonder... There's also a 420 in this beginning scene where that's when the ratings drop. So they got 420 and 69 in the same episodes. Grow up, Six Riders.

Grow up. We noticed when we were watching it again that the Speedo Man maybe was supposed to be an animal. He's got floppy ears. He's got floppy dog ears, but he's colored like a human. Yeah, they referred to him as the Speedo Man. It's beef rules. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, the Speedo Man.

Let's talk about him. It's the Speedo Man corner. Well, that's true. Well, so, yeah, the Speedo Man, let's talk about him. It's a Speedo Man corner. Well, I wonder what, like, in continuity, I know why he's there for the joke that it's to make, it's for Nelson to pull him out. But in continuity, why did an animator draw this sexy Speedo Man in the cartoon to just walk in front of the camera? Why was that put in their cartoon?

I mean, you've got to give the cartoonist something, you know, just something to draw for fun. I'm really sad Speedo Man is not an entry on the Simpsons wiki. That's surprising. You know what I'm doing after this. I give the Speedo Man all the green lights. I always wondered, what show is itchy and scratchy that they just have a

speedo man walk by well with with the music it basically implied that it was like the same as when a hot lady shows up in like animaniacs or whatever right i mean this is you know it's a it's tom and jerry there's always like a hot cat it's true like the tom and jerry when they're like on the beach not always but sometimes it's but they're he's like lusting over like a hot cat and a bikini. Yeah. If it was a Speedo woman, we would not be asking these questions. That's true.

I just appreciate that they're eating the scales a little bit with Speedo Man. So thank you. Yeah, you're right. A real Minerva Mink kind of moment there. But so we get to hear what the focus group thinks of it. They like itchy. They like scratchy. One kid seems to love the Speedo, man.

What more do they want? Okay, how many of you kids would like Itchy and Scratchy to deal with real-life problems like the ones you face every day? And who would like to see them do just the opposite, getting into far- out situations involving robots and magic powers. So you want a realistic, down to earth show that's completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots. And also, you should win things by watching. You kids don't know what you want. That's why you're still kids, because you're stupid. Just tell me what's wrong with the freaking show.

Mommy. Excuse me, sir. The thing is, there's not really anything wrong with the Itchy and Scratchy show. It's as good as ever. But after so many years, the characters just can't have the same impact they once had. That's it. That's it, little girl. You saved Itchy and Scratchy.

Please sign these papers indicating that you did not save Itchy and Scratchy. Well, okay, the grounded magical robots. I mean, everybody in this room can. That is your, yeah, that's. Yeah, that's... Yeah. That's basically what we're all trying to do. Yeah, yeah. OK KO is literally that show.

Literally that show. You told me as you were making it. Yeah, I'm like... Those words. I want to make that show. Yeah. But can you win stuff from watching either Steven Universe or OK KO? Well, we...

In season one... In the video game. Yeah, we put codes. In every single episode of OK KO, is a uh what it's a three character code character code that you can put in a in the uh video game coming soon to switch okay ko let's play here now available on psn xbla and steam nice and you can unlock cool stuff including uh other playable characters yeah so yeah you can win some stuff. I guess Milhous didn't know about digital goods yet. It's true.

It wasn't there yet. Well, and that would go for Steven Universe, too. Like, there are magical... Reunited had a bunch of magical robots fighting in it, as well as a lot of motions. Oh, yeah. I don't think of them as robots, but yeah, the ships are there. Yeah, and I think the closer we can get to that goal of that show, the better, honestly.

What I love about that clip is that when he does pitch them a down-to-earth show that also has magical robots, they're not super excited. Like a couple people are like, yeah, I think that's what I want. They're not like, yes, that's perfect. Both things are exciting and good. It's actually really difficult to find a balance. I think this is where the writers are starting to make their own defense of their own work. I really agree with them here in that

Lisa is saying characters can't have the same impact. To address that a lot of the time with shows, you will see what has been coined the flanderization of characters. In order to get that same effect, they have to heighten the character, but at the cost of the characters being so they're kind of between a rock and a hard place with a show that has run as long as the simpsons like it is hard to surprise people yeah that's really true and i really i love the animation on myers on the window because he has

like his long nose just like pressed down against it He's got a real season two design to him. Yeah, especially that long nose. Watching that again and realizing that someone else in the room turned on the light for him to say that thing to Lisa. He's already pressed up against the glass. Actually, I think the blue hair is a real giveaway that he's an early character. He would not have blue hair in the modern age. Or this age, really.

That's sad. I mean, that is, I think, one of the greatest tragedies of The Simpsons in terms of character design. Side characters aren't allowed to look as weird as The Simpsons themselves. And I feel like, you know, the more of those characters, it's always fun to see them. And it's weird when they bring those characters back like in newer episodes because you know because they look so out of place yeah and the hurricane netty in one of the scenes there's like a season one or two character with like just the single line hair on them yeah whoa that's so weird looking with all the other people does only lenny have a muzzle

outside of homer is there anyone else and crustyusty. Krusty, too. By design, I guess. But that's because Krusty was going to be Homer. Right, right. And I guess they're barber whenever he shows up again. Yeah, if he ever shows up. Yeah, exactly. He'll be in a background every once in a while, and it's like, what's he doing? Me and Bob watched the shorts again recently i think i now think they had the

reason they had so many pretty much every adult man had muzzles in there i think that's because mac reigning he wanted all these characters who were authority all these male authority figures that got mad at barth they should look a little like homer so he just can't escape a homer type man telling him stuff i'm sure it's that and then also just the animation reason which is when you have a character with a defined mouth that's separated by a line it's so much easier to only animate the mouth and not the rest of them which is why you know all those hannah barbaric characters they always have defined muzzles or some sort of bow tie or something separating their mouth from the rest of their body it's a little bit of that same sort of uh instinct so now that they

know they're gonna have a new character they got to take it to the writer's room i have figured out how to rejuvenate the show it is so simple you egghead writers would have never thought of it what we need is a new character, one that today's kids can relate to. Are you absolutely sure that's wise, sir? I mean, I don't want to sound pretentious here, but Itchy and Scratchy comprise a dramaturgical dyad. Hey, this ain't art, it's business.

What do you got in mind? Sexy broad, gangster octopus? No, no, the animal chain of command goes mouse, cat, dog. D-O-G. Uh, dog? Isn't that a tad predictable? In your dreams.

We're talking the original dog from hell. You mean Cerberus? We at the network want a dog with attitude. He's edgy. He's in your face. You've heard the expression, let's get busy. Well, this is a dog who gets biz-ay. Consistently and thoroughly.

So he's proactive, huh? Oh, God, yes. We're talking about a totally outrageous paradigm. Excuse me, but proactive and paradigm, aren't these just buzzwords that dumb people use to sound important? Not that I'm accusing you of anything like that I'm fired aren't I oh yes Start thinking up a name for this funky dog. I don't know something along the lines of say poochie only more proactive

Yeah So poochie okay with everybody? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It's good. Who is that? It's good. So the first person talking, the character rather, not the voice actor, is Bill Oakley, the showrunner, and the other person, a dog, isn't that a tad predictable, is Josh Weinstein. And if you've heard us talk to those people on our interviews and on the many, many commentaries,

they kind of sound like that. It's's somewhat of an approximation yeah i think well in the commentary they took some offense at how nerdily they make the writers voices sometimes so i maybe they calmed it down some for those years maybe we saw a lot of these same jokes in the front in that it is a super over-educated writing staff writing kids cartoons but now these are all the current writers yeah and i feel like that's probably just how they felt like they were overeducated they're watching they're writing these cartoons that i guess maybe only kids are watching at the time i mean judging from that interview they seem like they really felt like oh kind of just kids watch this thing and they're all all these Harvard guys who, I don't know, you go to Harvard, you think you're going to be a senator or some major thing.

And now you're a cartoon boy. I can see. Maybe look down on yourself a little bit. Even though I don't think they should. They should feel. I would much rather everyone be a Simpsons writer than be a congressman. That's true. I mean, I think this really poisoned my brain against executives.

And I've never made a cartoon or created one. But whenever I've had to work with executives, it sort of turned out like this. And I feel bad about that. It's like I didn't want this to fulfill my expectation, but it did. No, and me and Bob have been in meetings together with executives. And we would reference this episode after the meetings were over. Yeah, I know. this is exactly that. And also how I felt like the George Meyer guy in this where I wanted to just like,

time to snarkily correct this person who's in charge of my job. That'll show them. And scoring little points and correcting your boss, maybe it doesn't help if you want to – it doesn't help you keep a prolonged career, I found, at a place like that. I should really take that advice well yeah I mean how much how familiar is this writer's room and this type of meeting to you guys

well it's certainly like it's a variation on the thing and like you know the executives we work with are certainly quite a bit more human than this like proto Lindsay Nagle character yeah I mean that is Lindsay Nagle oh yeah you're right it is because we looked it up after and it's like I guess technically it it is lindsey nagle but she's got like black hair yeah and but it's like things like proactive certainly still do seep in all the time

on every single show much if a character if a main character is reactive uh you're in big trouble um but like you know the scenario of course of bringing in all of the writers to get this bad news about how their jobs are going to change and how they're going to have to do something that's not a fun idea. Normally they'd force the showrunner to deliver that news to the writers. Yeah, usually we get the news and then we have to tell everybody else, hey, so this is what they want. Yeah, Toby brought up Lindsay Nagel. This is her first appearance and her hair is different in season nine's episode the girly edition or just girly edition rather her hair would be blonde and she is based on the real life executive sue nagel who would run hbo for a time and she was briefly married to dana ghoul

that's how i know about her via dana ghoul yeah well i don't know a decade what's a decade in a lifetime the simpsons a decade isn't that long so They both moved on, so it's fine. They're very happy, nice people. I think, too, that Sue Nagel was... The writers knew her. I think she was the agent for more than one of them. Yeah, and she does have blonde hair, if I didn't say that. That's maybe why Lindsay started looking more like Sue. But she wasn't an executive at that time.

Later she would be. She has a very specific energy they bring up. It's why she comes back so many times to have commandments to Krusty. And it's kind of how they kind of exercise their demons towards the executives on the show. But I also, when they fire George Meyer, like, he's gone. Like, he's not in the next shot. You don't get to see him exit or anything. I love the laziness.

There's like, put you in there. Yeah. But, but, but especially because these guys were famous for staying till eight, like two in the morning to come up with Colonel Hap, Hapablat,

especially this staff. Yeah. So they, they wouldn't, they're not the people who settle on a name. The staff was, except for Mike Scully, the staff had no children.

Few of them were married, so it was the late night staff for sure. One other thing I wanted to talk about was the dramaturgical dyad of Itchy and Scratchy. I was looking into it, so Itchy and Scratchy, I would say closest real-life analog is probably Tom and Jerry. I mean, or Herman and Catnip, or, you know, Pixie and Dixie and Mr. Jinx. But I would say Tom and Jerry is what we think of. And I was like, how long was it before Tom and Jerry introduced Spike the Bulldog? And it was in the fifth Tom and Jerry short. Whoa.

Wow. Yeah. It happened very fast. I think they were like, look, a mouse cat dog. I think it's interesting that Poochie is not attacking Scratchie. No, it's true. Which would make it entertaining. It's done.

I mean, he's not wrong. It's a good idea. It is a really good idea. He followed that idea through. I mean, you know, it leads to those great moments. And we've seen Itchy and Scratchy do it before, like Itchy and Scratchy and Marge, where they have a common foe.

They turn to each other and then they shake hands. And they have to unite against. And they unite against. But the problem is that we haven't gotten to that part yet. Everyone has to love Poochie. Exactly. That's what really. I think Itchy and Scratchy cartoons are more distinct than Tom and Jerry cartoons

and I love the pre- Chuck Jones, Tom and Jerry's and the pre-filmation and everything that followed that but it's like, I don't recall like, oh, this is the one where X or Y happens.

They're always in the house, they're always attacking each other with things but they're always fun to watch. I keep waiting for him to put on a zoot suit and everyone is like... Yeah.

And roll a cigarette. Yeah. I think around 97 is also when this happened for real with Pinky and the Brain. Yeah. Pinky and the Brain and Elmira. Yeah. Right. That's right.

And in the theme song, they referenced that it was executive meddling that made the show worse. It's enough that network wants. Why bother to complain? And I've never seen those episodes. I don't know if I ever will. Yeah. It's okay.

I mean, the writers are warning you in the theme song don't watch this watch these yeah it seemed like the elmira concept someone really wanted to get it off the ground i think there was a tiny tunes episode which was an elmira stealth pilot yeah six and style show yeah all human family having sitcom-y type situations and then i guess it's just when they got to Pinky and the Brain, you know, their, like, last season, they're like, let's revive that Elmira idea. Wait, Pinky and the Brain was primetime, right? It became primetime.

It was primetime, yeah, when it was spun off, but then it went back into kids' TV. Because I feel like adding Elmira does not a prime time no shift produce though i think that like that stealth pilot for that elmira show was probably targeted as like a prime time show well when they were doing it like simpsons was hotter than ever when they would have been producing those are the fox years for tiny tunes so like maybe season four of the simpsons season three of the simpsons era yeah they Yeah. I thought they hated being on Fox since they wrote literal foxes

into the show to try to kill Babs and Buster. And were they also the executives too? Like the Fox executives? They were foxes? Oh, yeah. I'm pretty sure they were. Yeah.

Also, the this ain't art, this is business is a line I was like, well, I should have listened to that when I was writing. Would have made my life easier. College boy. Krusty's pitches for new cartoon characters are pretty good, though.

Oh, yeah. The gangster octopus. Yeah, gangster octopus. That actually. It's hard to say. We both just couldn't quite say it. Gangster octopus. It's an night gear villain. I think about the Itchy and Scratchy friends and how all of them require a lot more explanation of what's going on with them.

Disgruntled goat. There's probably a lot of dialogue setting up. What's going on in Klu Klux Klan's head? Uncle Ant seems like the most boring of all. Yeah. But I, going back to that episode, but I do love,

like, when you go to Disney and you can find merch for an obscure character who hasn't been animated in like 20 years. Yeah. Like,

when I went to Tokyo, Disney, they kept, they had like, wolves everywhere. Like, they seemed to love every wolf toy. I, I had like wolves everywhere. Like they seemed to love every wolf toy. I had never seen

a toy of the wolf from Three Little Pigs until I went to Tokyo Disney. Oh wow. That's cool. That's around, that anti-Semitic.

Well. Probably not him dressed up as the anti-Semitic character. That's stuck in Japan. You have to buy

the costume separately. I have no memory of there being an anti-Semitic costume in that cartoon. Oh, yeah, there is. I watched it in third grade. Yeah, there definitely is. I think they cut that out over time.

Oh, no. Yeah. Well, let's go back to designing Poochie. No, no. He was supposed to have attitude. What do you mean exactly? Oh, you know, attitude, no. He was supposed to have attitude. Um, what do you mean exactly? Oh, you know, attitude, attitude. Sunglasses.

Can we put him in more of a hip-hop context? Forget context. He's got to be a surfer. Give me a nice schmear of surfer. I feel we should rastify him by 10% or so. Hmm. I think he needs a little more attitude. Oh, yeah. There it is right there. That's it. I love it.

The Trust McNeil lines are great. That's it right there. I like how they established that attitude is sunglasses. So more attitude is more sunglasses. Yeah. I didn't realize until we heard the clip that there's an equation in there that's tracked. You have to basically underline the sunglasses to make them more sunglasses. They have to be entirely black sunglasses to be the ultimate sunglasses.

And that was director David Silverman. I think we've interviewed three of the five voice people from the show on this episode so far. Though he doesn't sound like that nerdy voice. No, he doesn't. He actually sounds more like Homer in real life. He does a good Homer, I think. You can see his tuba in the background.

That's right, which is really cool. And he still has his unibrow, too. But, boy, I mean, this is not how character designing goes, right? I mean, usually it's just like us standing over someone's shoulder, not everybody in the network, but there is, but there is like a version of this because basically when, after we get greenlit as a show, we do have a presentation we have to make, like an art presentation,

where we have to basically show all of the designs that we have for all of the characters. You basically put any artwork you've finished of the show at that point, which is pretty early in production, just like, this is kind of what the show's gonna look like. And then, yeah, everyone comes in and takes a look and kind of appraises.

Usually these meetings go decently well, to my memory. When you're a fabulous artist like you two. Certainly. Yes. Steven, yeah, it was, we had like, I think we did like, what? We did like a really big one where we like showed off all the characters and like a couple backgrounds and stuff. We got these light up stars that changed colors like from like uh from like a party a party store or something and i and we i lined

the oh wow the room with them and turn them all on so they'd be flickering colors yeah i you know you have to it's a mood board yeah you gotta razzle dazzle i mean the adventure time one of those is legendary for for setting up. Apparently there was AstroTurf all set up. Yeah. It was a very lovingly. Yeah, they built the tree house and put it in the corner of the room. You've got to explain how it's going to feel.

It doesn't exist yet, so you have to do that stuff. I mean, ours, we just set up a bunch of art in the pitch room. We were playing a clip over and over and stuff like that. Yeah, it was great. Have you used the word Rostify, or have you Rostified any characters? Every character in the show is Rostified by at least 10%.

Yeah, honestly, Poochie, we think about a lot. On OKKO, we did an episode called We've Got Pests, which... Oh my god, those guys are all Poochie. Yes, we had this episode called We've Got Pests. Oh my god, those guys are all poochies. Yes, we had this joke that it was like Captain Crunch,

oops all berries, but it's like oops all poochies. This episode is just all poochies. And it was an episode about these tiny it started as mascots. And then I was thinking gecks. 90s video game mascots. And then I was thinking Gex. 90s video game mascots.

You and no one else. It's totally my, it's my authentic, sincere love of Gex. Like we're like imagining like, oh, what if Gex, I don't know, Jersey Devil and Zool were like, would show up or something. And like, also like, you know, kind of like those 80s t-shirt mascots yeah like tnc surf designs and you know rude dog like that type of thing but their their personalities are very poochy like and that they're just focused on being cool and partying and having fun and anytime that uh that anyone tries to find depth in them they just like a brick wall yeah they just like want to party more but yeah there's there's something about that there's something about that kind of character that uh was so

ubiquitous during the 90s any mascot post sonic i think was constantly trying to up the ante on that sonic started as the baseline and everybody's like well you gotta keep adding accessories to sonic sonic needs more of these. It looks like Gex lost his sunglasses after the first game, which is bizarre. Well, they put him in a lot of different costumes. That's true. Like got a Bond. Yeah, James Bond one. Third one had a wrestling cover for some reason.

I think Cool Spot is my favorite because there's nothing there. It's only the sunglasses. It's only the sunglasses. The name says it all. He's a cool spot. He's a cool spot. He plays the game a lot. And he surfs into the first level. It's only the sunglasses. The name says it all. He's a cool spot. He's a cool spot. Yeah. I play the game a lot.

And he surfs into the first level. Yeah. That's right. And he shoots carbonation, correct? Yeah, that's right. Anyway, we can all agree that Gex was the best. Whoa. Hands down.

In terms of poochies, yeah, he's pretty high up there. I mean, actually, a few years ago, wasn't there a thing where Eidos was trying to be like, hey, you can pitch concepts for some of these certain characters, and it was like Fear Effect and Gex. And I was meeting with my friend Owen, being like, we've got to figure out a pitch for Gex. And my pitch was that it's a normal Gex platformer, but there are DLC quips that get downloaded in every week

based on whatever the news of the day is. Oh, that's fun. I like that. I think we need to talk to Dana Gould about Gex. Because he wrote most, if not all, of the Gex stuff with a writing partner. With Ron Hauge, who was also drawn into this episode as well. That episode of OK K.O. with all the Poochies. I also love in that that Rad thinks he's a Poochie,

then he's just like, you're not Poochie. He's not cool enough to be a Poochie. He tries to Poochify himself, but they see through him right away. Enid is more Poochie enough. He's not cool enough to be a Poochie. He tries to Poochify himself, but they see through him right away. Enid is more Poochie than Rad. Yeah. She's a natural Poochie. Yeah. I'm proud of that episode.

I feel like it turned out pretty well. I love the ending. Oh, the ending's lovely. Yeah, it's so good. But yeah, there's something really that was always really attractive about those characters. And especially the ones that they just had nothing like rude dog. Like he was on a t-shirt and you're just like, he looks cool.

Isn't there also cool dog. What's the live action pilot with the dog cartoon character dog. Yeah. That was like a wannabe Roger rabbit. What's that? It was cool dog. Is MC scat catapoochie. I would say so.

Sure. Yeah. I mean, he has a lot of depth. I mean, we learn a lot about his daily life and his romantic relationship with Paula Abdul in the song. But he's definitely a poochie. Oh, there's an entire album for him. He's got his entire album.

I've got to dig in. But yeah, the concept of adding kind of a contemporary character to a legacy series like Itchy and Scratchy is really interesting to me. It's kind of similar almost to, like, Goof Troop, where, you know, Pete and Goofy are these legacy, legacy characters from, like, the 1920s,

and they have these kids that are very, like, of their time. They're, like, 90s-era kids, you know? I think it might be a little bit like the Tom and Jerry Grape Ape Show. Oh, yeah, that's true. Which I feel like the intro to Itchy and Scratching Poochie is almost

a joke on Tom and Jerry Grape Ape because they just pop his name in there very awkwardly. And Grape Ape is here. And Grape Ape. And he's much newer. Was he different than McGilligurilla? Grape Ape's the giant one. He's just a gorilla for sale.

Is he like a Pokemon? Does he just say his name wrong? Yeah, he's Grapeape's the giant one. Yeah, McGilligurrilla, he's just a gorilla for sale. Does Grapeape, is he like a Pokemon? Does he just say his name along? Yeah, he is Grapeape. Yeah. Yeah. Is that where, is that the source? For Pokemon? Saying their own name? Yes, does it come from Grapeape?

Is Grapeape a Pokemon? I don't know. But if he predates Pokemon, then, well, what does this mean? I want to know. All the signifiers on Poochie are great, too. Not just the, he's got a skateboard, he's got a surfboard, he's got sunglasses, and he has nunchucks. Nunchucks. And a flannel shirt, too.

And baggy jeans. Though he doesn't have a flannel shirt in the later animation. They changed that character design when it came time to animate the other thing. It's hard to track. Yeah, it's really hard to track. The nunchuck stuck in his back pocket as though they were Bart's slingshot. Yeah.

Yes, that's true. Well, I mean, that cross-arm pose, I owned shirts with Bart in that pose in 1990. Same, cool your jets, man. I do love, too, when they start the design, David Silverman just draws, like, a dog. He's just like, this is zero. Let's make it like they are just turning a

knob instead of... Now he draws it. And I really love too Alex Rocco's satisfied reaction like, ha ha, perfect. There it is, right there. Now, we've got one new character but that's not enough for this episode. Oh, that's right. Poochie the dog.

Adding a new character is often a desperate attempt to boost low ratings. Yo, yo. How's it hanging, everybody? Morning, Roy. Yeah, hi, Roy. Hey, you're up and casting for the voice of Poochie. You should try out, Dad. You have a funny voice.

I do not. Haven't you ever listened to yourself on a tape recorder? I prefer to listen to Cheap Trick. Here, say something. Hey, this is Homer Simpson saying howdy to all the girls out there in radio land. Hey, this is Homer Simpson saying... I don't sound like that, do I? Oh, I don't like having such a hilarious voice.

So The Secret of Roy, The Secret of Roy is twofold. The real story is, I think around this time, executives were bugging the showrunners of The Simpsons to add a new character, perhaps an older, cooler cousin. But the real Secret of Roy came out in an interview with Dan McGrath, right? Yes. Dan McGrath, writer in seasons four, five, and six. He co-wrote with Greg Daniels,

won the best ever Treehouse of hearts time is punishment yeah and so one of the alternate timelines they go to there is no part there's just a droopy voiced kind of uh kid named roy who bar homer's like roy and he just it's like roy is just uh a real like wet blanket on things and i think they all loved it internally, but they cut it. And so Roy just became a name they threw around in the place. And Damocraft figures that it was just his old buddies from

season six writing in. Just like, well, who would the new kid be? Roy? This Roy is way cooler. This is not anything like him. He is the human poochie. Yes. I mean, Roy gives off a very Pauly Shore energy, I would say. Yeah, yeah. He's kind of like the Fonz for the 90s, though.

Right. Like Mr. S. Yeah, that too. Yeah, he has a lot of Fonz in him, for sure. Except the Fonz works because he's there from the beginning instead of inserted into the show like Ted McGinley was. Or Mork. Or Mork. The joke of Roy's sudden appearance not being acknowledged is executed very well.

Very funny. Yeah, hi Roy. And, I don't know, I think now, I mean, we were just saying season 30, they just started it. I think they could actually bring back Roy for real. Kind of like how, you know, they should just bring back Ozmodyar. Like, let's just, you know,

let's just throw it all at the wall. Let's do it. Why not? What's it? Who cares? Give Mo a cell phone. Exactly. I think there'd be a lot of

fondness for Roy now if he came back. They said we'd be ready for him in a few years. Yeah. I think we're ready. If I were invited to pitch stories in the writer's room, I would just pitch a somber boyhood style thing about what's happened to Roy

since the last 20 years. He's aged and they have not. I just noticed that. I didn't know they brought back Mike Socia of the softball team. He came back actually in recent Simpsons like seven years ago, but he was there and he had aged.

He looks like current day Mike Socia, but it's like, no. And they actually do say, weren't you poisoned by radioactive chemicals? And he says, it gave me the powers of a super manager. But anyway, so at least they acknowledge that he was at death's door when we last saw Mike Socia. I do love the newspaper headline, too. Funny dog will make life worthwhile. I mean, that's the dream, that your cartoon will be on the front page of a newspaper that people read. But they buy that space?

Like, I don't know what's happening here. Yeah. So hearing your voice when you recorded, I never liked it as a kid. This was the wrong job for me to get into As somebody who doesn't like hearing your voice I think by exposure I've just been hardened to it It's just my job

I'm in year 8 of hearing my own voice for a living I'm over it But as a kid when you get your first tape recorded You hear it back like that's what I said Homer's reaction is very childlike Yeah as a kid who Would record his own radio show on tapes yeah i got very used to that and now like as a professional voice actor

which i guess i am uh like when we're are but you factually are and yeah i guess i factually am but when we're like going over the voice takes and, when we're doing animatics, we never refer to it as my voice. I'm always like, ah, that rad take doesn't work too well. We've got to get another pickup on that. Well, I'm just criticizing my own performance. I think for the sake of sanity, you just have to separate it out. That's not me, that's rad. Yeah, exactly.

There's no greater nightmare than my scratch. When my scratch stays in, sometimes even all the way through final. Yeah, when we do like... Not final, obviously final, but through work print. Yeah, like rough... There'll be chunks of me talking. Yeah, a lot of times when we have to put in like rough scratch voices, and it's just like us, like the characters will be talking,

and then you hear like Toby's voice pop in. Yeah, yeah. The characters will be talking and then you hear Toby's voice pop in. I did one episode of Regulus Show and it makes me insane. My mom is very proud that she can hear me on TV, but I'm just like, oh god, this is so weird. I like Homer's I prefer cheap trick. That's what he does

instead of listening to himself speak. He's not wrong. They're great. So it's time to cast that talking dog and all these auditions are amazing. Oh, a talking dog.

What were you guys smoking when you came up with that? We were eating rotisserie chicken. Can you just read the line, please? Ruff, ruff. I'm Poochie the ragging dog. How we use electricity can be smarter, cleaner and greener. At Electric Ireland, we can help guide you there. You see, our new Net Zero hub has all you need to know about smart meter plans,

EV tariffs, solar panels, and much more. Making your usage clearer, your trips greener, your home cozier, and your world brighter. Find our NetZero Hub at electricireland.ie. You're perfect. In fact, you're better than perfect. Next to you, perfectionist crap. Ruff, ruff. I'm Poochie the Rockin' Dog. Hi, I'm Troy McClure.

You may remember me from such cartoons as Christmas Ape and Christmas Ape Goes to Summer Camp. You're even better than this guy. Take a hike, you bum. By the way, we're still in the first act of this episode. This first act is like 10 minutes long. It might be the longest first act of The Simpsons to date. It could be up there. Yeah, I love Roger Myers in this scene.

This is like that kind of like naive. He's just excitable. And he seems very invested in this, which is just like great. On the first audition, he's just like, brilliant. It's also misleading the audience with the swelling music. And everyone is getting this reaction. invested in this which is just like great well the first audition is just like brilliant yeah it's also misleading the audience with the swelling music and everyone is getting this reaction well i think otto would have been a good poochie i think he'd be a great yeah homer actually i mean he is a poochie as well yeah i think he was his also his question of

what were you smoking when you came up like i believe that is the bane of most comedy writers is to be asked what were you smoking? Yeah. I think as Adventure Time alumni, I really got sick of that. Yeah, we got that a lot. We worked really hard.

Look, we all know the secret to writing is to get stoned after you write. Also, the secret to storyboarding, especially. But that happened a lot

on regular shows as well where it's just like, please stop i'm trying to make a cartoon it's really hard to it just doesn't make any sense to get your ideas from drug use yeah but hey i is there at least a lot of rotisserie chicken when you're making the shows you gotta be you gotta be careful when you're finding lunch in burbank otherwise you're gonna end up falling asleep it's true we talked about those big white sandwiches last time there is something beautiful like i feel like i have connections to like the the lunch i was eating when i happened to when we happened to come up with because you're always like running around doing double and triple and quadruple duty and that's like one of those things where no one's

interested in like the little things that are actually going on when you're coming up with things. I don't know. There's something beautiful about that. No, there is. I'm like, oh yeah, everyone's probably sitting around. It reminds me of being on Adventure Time. And I remember a storyboard artist pitched an entire episode while holding a Subway sandwich in his hand. Tuna was flying everywhere.

It was great. And it's like, Tuna was flying everywhere. It was great. And it's like, I always think about, yeah. It was wrapped in plastic. But he was gesturing with it. But he was like using it as a pointer. Yeah. And then this happens and this happens. I think he'd just gotten it and it was time to pitch.

Yeah, yeah. And that character talking was Futurama co-creator David X. Cohen. Not the voice actor, by the way. That was Harry Shearer doing a Woody Allen impression. And he's wearing a fossil on his t-shirt because I believe he collects fossils. It's a squid. A squid. Yeah, he mentions that. Because his dad is

a marine biologist. That's right. I think he also collects fossils on top of that. Yeah, he tells a funny story in the Futurama DVDs of commentaries of going to an auction for fossils and thinking he's going to get them. And then when the first fossil comes up, Nicolas Cage starts bidding and he can't get a single one of them. Now we see what he's doing to pay off that fossil debt.

Oh, wait, Mandy's good, right? Yeah. The first one in a while. I had this moment of meeting David S. Cohen. Well, this is the thing. I'm a fan of both David S. Cohen's, the Simpsons Futurama David S. Cohen, ex-Cohen, and the David S. Cohen that worked on Courage, a Cowardly Dog.

I met the David S. Cohen that worked on Courage, a Cowardly Dog, and I said, oh, and I'm also a fan of that, and I was like, oh, it's so great to meet you. It's so nice to meet you, David S. Cohen. And he goes, oh, no, you want the other David S. Cohen. And I go, no, I want you. I love Courage, a Cowardly Dog. Did you write that poem for Freaky Fred? I wanted to know everything about him.

He seemed a little... Well, he shouldn't have been surprised because he's great. I didn't realize that was the David S. Cohen that caused the name change. Yeah. I met David S. Cohen once at a post-Emmys party, and I was very, very... I overdid it, I think. I was like, listen to every Futurama commentary,

and he was extremely polite. I think with Cohen is the the writer of this episode I think as a Futurama guy I think he that gets him overlooked as his Simpsons writing like he's written some of the best episodes including this one like he right he it was a real hit to the show losing him to Futurama yeah I think it was one of our interviews in which it was said Cohen would have been the showrunner if it wasn't Mike Scully. If Cohen didn't leave, it would have been Cohen in Running Season 9.

Man, I wonder what that... It's weird to think of that timeline. Yeah, wow. There would have been even more math jokes. I couldn't handle it. So that Troy audition too, I love that. One Christmas ape sounds like a perfect Ruby Spears or Hannah Margera cartoon

who would have been in in 1979. Also, it almost feels like Phil Hartman is goofing on how he would have auditioned for roles of just like, hi, I'm Phil Hartman. This is me. The Christmas ape thing I see, so the summer camp thing I see, is them trading on the fame of Christmas ape in the same year. They like them for Christmas. They're going to love them in summertime.

Yeah, it feels like it was a single clamshell VHS Christmas Ape. And then they were like, okay, we got Christmas Ape out there. Did pretty well. Let's put all of our bones into Christmas Ape Goes to Summer Camp. Christmas in July. Which clearly didn't pay off because there wasn't another Christmas ape after that. It's a shame. Poor Otto.

He has his star is born moment and then immediately just thrown away. He'll be fine. Yeah. He's okay. There's still one more audition to go. Ruff, ruff. I'm Poochie the Rockin' Dog. Now that's just bad you got no attitude you're

barely outrageous and i don't know what you're in but it's not my face next oh no attitude eh not in your face huh well you can cram it with walnuts ugly that's it that's the poochie attitude do that again huh i can't i don't what I did. Then you don't get the job next. Oh, I don't get the job, do I? Well, boo-hoo, I don't get to be a cartoon dog. That's it. You've got

the job. Oh, now I got the job, huh? Oh, thank you. So that is the end of the first act. Can you believe that? That is such a long act. Wow. I mean, that's never actually happened in audition history, right? In insulting the producer and getting the job.

In any job history. Yeah. No one appreciates Spunk. You've got Moxie. Mr. Show had the greatest sketch on that. Yes. Yeah. You're right.

You're going to write. There's that famous Zero Mostel story where he went in, I think it's to an audition, and they said, do something funny. And he took the typewriter off the person's desk and threw it out the window. That is funny. Yeah. I think so, too. I don't know if he got that job, but he should have.

I also, I like Homer's terminology of cramming with walnuts and then he does like a thumb up version of cram it with walnuts all right with all that's ugly and then alex rocco loves that that's the spirit which that energy doesn't seem right for the rocking dog the telling someone to cram it with walnuts. Yeah, Poochie's more positive and proactive. Maybe they're still in the original dog from hell mindset at this point. They definitely shaved some edges off for the final. It's true. So we get to the first recording here.

I kind of wish we got more of June in this episode. Yeah. Okay, Homer, let's get a level check on your boys. She smells, she smells by the sheet store. Wait, wait, let me try it again. Relax, Homer. You'll do fine. I'm June Bellamy. I do the voices of Itchy and Scratchy. You? But you're a lady. She's a lady, all right. A beautiful lady. Hey, that really is you. How'd you get to be so good? Oh, just experience, I suppose. I started out as Roadrunner.

Meep. You mean meep meep? No, they only paid me to say it once, then they doubled it up on the soundtrack. Cheap bastards. So that's a parody of June Foray, who was actually on what would have been the first Simpsons episode, which never was, the Sub-Enchanted Evening, where she plays the phone operator for the babysitting service. The owner of the giant phone. The giant phone. The biggest phone in Springfield.

She owns it. But, yeah, she did make it to her 100th birthday. She passed in 2017. Yeah, she almost made it to her 100th birthday. But, yeah, she was voice acting up until the end, I think. She was even in the new DuckTales game in 2012 with Alan Young. Yeah, it's magic of the spell. We've been lucky enough to be in the same room as her a couple different times.

Yeah, usually when she would present at the Annie Awards, there'd be like a nice section for her. She was always a huge advocate for artists, for animators. It's true. In a way that, I mean, just above and beyond everybody else, she was such a force. Yeah, in fact, Annie's, I think, she spearheaded the idea of creating that award for animation. I was ashamed to find out all that facts only after she passed away.

I wish I had known that beforehand, but I just knew her as the voice acting legend who had been i mean it was just wild to me when she uh when i was watching like interview clips of her that like she was someone who had been like directed by walt disney and chuck jones and all these legends up into the 2000s like she was just this line the history of animation history it was just amazing it's great that tress voices are because i think tress mcneil is our generation's june Like she was just this line to history of animation history. It was just amazing. It's great that Tress voices her because I think Tress McNeil is our generation's June foray.

She'll be doing it hopefully until she's a hundred years old. I would say so. She's probably like the closest thing we have to kind of like that sort of can do almost anything sort of voice, voice actress. Who's appeared in like everything and is also like, she's, she is Daisy duck duck like that is

yeah famous as it gets in cartoons with june here that they were able to put in another behind the scenes thing of just nancy cartwright meeting people just like you voice bart you're a woman you can't do that oh yeah that's true yeah i didn't think about that although well according to the commentary dan's doing that's. That's Dan and Harry. Yeah. Right? Dan is itchy. Harry is scratchy. Right.

Usually, but sometimes they even forget. But somehow they allowed scratchy clips at Universal Studios, even though there's clearly no other Harry Shearer stuff there. Then it must not be him there. Did he? It might have been re-done. Yeah. It could have been Dan talking over it, perhaps, I guess. Yeah. redone. Good and Dan talking over it, perhaps. When we saw Simpsons at the

Hollywood Bowl, they redubbed all the clips with Harry in them. I think they avoided many of them. And they avoided a bunch of them, too. It was weird, because they played a clip from the Simpsons movie with Flanders in it, and I think they had

a fake Flanders voice. It was really weird yeah yeah when you're there in the park you realize how many characters he voices that just aren't represented like skinner and flanders and just a few others that are like oh boy they're just not here there's a rainmere wolf castle looking guy on the sign but it's not him that's why it's yeah that uh simpsons ride it's cool but the story is super weird because none of his characters are in it. So it's kind of like... Well, they're lucky they had Sideshow Bob because it should be Burns.

It should be Burns, though. Yeah. You'd think. Yeah. How accurate is this recording set up to the real thing? Not at all. Oh, yeah. I can't imagine what kind of room tone they have in there how often

are they together uh voice actors for your shows fairly often yeah we try to we try to get people together like when we can i think that's the goal i think it just depends on what kind of cast you have um and what the schedules are like but usually yeah in ok ko like usually we've got several people there yeah for us usually you know we try to get the core main characters together. So, you know, we've got Courtney Taylor, who's KO, and then Ashley Birch, who's Enid, and then Mia's Rad. We try to get them all together. But, you know, it's tough sometimes. People have different schedules. Ashley's super busy, you know, and then you have to kind of patch people in. You guys are pretty good with getting some of like the core characters. Yeah, I really like to have people be together yeah especially i mean if it's

narratively important one of my favorite times recording was we were getting charlene and erica who are ruby and sapphire respectively and charlene was sort of having a tricky time like laughing on cue and erica was like oh just like let all the air out of your lungs and it becomes easy to like then laugh on cue and then she tried it and she did it and she's like oh it worked and i'm like oh my god i think sapphire just taught ruby how to laugh i just was having such a moment but yeah you want to you want to get people together because the the chemistry is really important yeah especially like when we get all the heroes and all the robots together yeah that's like an especially fun time.

When you can actually like have them fight each other in real time. Yeah. Does Jim Cummings record with other people? Yeah, he does. Yeah. We haven't been a lot. Yeah.

And actually, yeah, I've gotten to do like a couple scenes with him, like as Daryl and him as a box man. And that's always like really fun. Cause we just start playing off of each other. I mean, of course he's, he's legendary. And like like the fun thing is that having conversations with him like we'll

just be talking about something he'll always be like oh i was in that like we were talking about that movie that movie the mangler yeah and we were just like oh yeah we watched the mangler for halloween he's like oh i was the mangler yeah yeah yeah i didn't know that. But yeah, it's great, especially with someone like Jim who's so good. When you have a room full of other people, his personality, it really comes out. His lines get bigger and crazier. He does funnier things. It's great. With Boxman, we really let him go off the rails.

Yeah, we're like, just go crazy. The setup in the episode, yeah, is not super realistic. You'd need a glass wall and door between you. The engineer is in the room with them in this scene, right? Yeah, I mean, the elements of Mike's mixing board, you're not going to be. But it doesn't especially look soundproofed at all. Well, they have these padded walls, which we don't, I mean, I guess we have stuff like that. Yeah, we have some sound-dampening stuff.

Yeah, it's an interesting way of drawing. Because maybe it looked like they must be in there all the time, or maybe the writing and the recording is a little separated. This could be the wimpiest voice of all of the people they're depicting on the show. Just read the line, please. Also, they're holding the scripts by hand, which I thought, don't have like a music stand type

thing or something yeah yeah you have to avoid the sound of paper that would have been bad for the drawing i think just to have the music stand uh cutting the uh yeah but it's still paper scripts then it's not like an ipad or something oh we do paper yeah we yeah we still because you have to you're gonna have to write on it yeah it usually. The actors like to give themselves notes as they're recording. Underline things. And Myers directs these sessions too. He's very invested in this. He's so hands-on.

It's funny. We were laughing about how nerdy and dorky all of the writers and staff of The Simpsons sound in this episode. But for the most part in these episodes, they are directed by the showrunners. So you shouldn't be surprised it's true now i on the commentary josh weinstein literally says like these are really insulting these voices so and then the marketing push for poochie begins there too which like i that standee that says whatever you want that also is a very like those existed for bark 2 in the 90s. Yeah. He loved selling Brillo pads.

Brillo pads. So, so good. Yeah. That's so funny. It's real. That's the dream, you know, to have a cardboard

cut out of your character used to sell garbage. If only. Yeah, who had to move those Brillo pads? That's a good price for Brillo pads,

I think. Maybe not, I don't know, $97, but that's a good price. And also getting Homer on the cover of a magazine, too. That's also what feels the genius of work

moment here, but that also feels like they'd want to cast Troy McClure so then he could be on the magazine covers to further promote it. That's why you get a famous guy, not some unknown named Homer Simpson, though I guess in Springfield, Homer should be kind of famous by

now by now but they always forget about him hey everybody we've got some great news we've got a new shirt just in time for halloween isn't that right henry that's right and just like our previous shirt it was designed by our wonderful artistic friend and previous guest on the show, Nina Matsumoto. But this time it is a tribute to one of our classic Simpsons jingles. Death stalks you at every turn. There it is, death. It is a spooky black shirt with the death stalks you at every turn slogan, along with a skeleton baby that looks very similar to Maggie playing with blocks. And what do the blocks say?

R.I. r.i.p exactly it's the perfect thing to wear to freak out the squares and show your love for talking simpsons if you're a fan of black t-shirts like myself you finally got it yourself your own official talking simpsons t-shirt in black it looks great and you can wear it at any time but it's perfect for the halloween season and hey if you're going to go to one of our live shows this month in october why not even get one to wear there but where can you buy this what web address could you go to that's right go to tinyurl.com slash simpsons death shirt to check it out and buy one that's tinyurl.com slash simpsons death shirt and you find it there. Or if you'd like to go to the storefront that we have, it is at Shirtsicle.com, like Popsicle, but with shirt in front of it, S-H-I-R-T-S-I-C-L-E.com,

and you can find it. And also our first Talking Simpsons t-shirt, which is still available there, Ion Podcast, which also by Nina Matsumoto inspired by the Ion Springfield logo in a beautiful sky blue and if you buy either of the t-shirts or both we all get money from it including Nina so it's a great way to help the show and be stylish again that's tinyurl.com slash Simpsons death shirt to check it out. Oh boy, okay, so the hardcore fans, here we are at the scene that is this

show that being bought. It's a nice pull to Homer Goes to College, though. A pull from that. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it's good to see them again. Hi, question for Miss Bellamy. In episode 2F09, when Heechee plays Scratchy's skeleton like a xylophone, he strikes the same rib twice in succession,

yet he produces two clearly different tones. I mean, what are we, to believe that this is some sort of a... a magic xylophone or something? Boy, I really hope somebody got fired for that blunder. Uh, well... I'll field this one. Let me ask you a question. Why would a man whose shirt says

genius at work spend all of his time watching a children's cartoon show? I withdraw my question. Excuse me, I'm interested. On the itchy and scratchy CD-ROM, is there a way to get out of the dungeon without using the wizard key? What the hell are you talking about?

You're a lifesaver, Homer. I can't deal with these hardcore fans. Your attention, please. An episode. Hey, your attention, please. Boy, this made me realize how much I miss Data. Yeah, Data. Oh, wizard key.

Is that a, I feel like that's a reference to Virtual Springfield. Them getting guff for that game. I think we're pre-Virtual Springfield. Oh, we're pre-that? Yeah. I think it was 97. I think they probably got multiple questions about Simpsons video games there. They're like, we don't touch those things. What are you talking

about? But this is one of the first references to a Comic-Con style appearance. And I think Mission Hill will be one of the first direct depictions of Comic-Con on TV. And these hardcore fans are very... It's the nerds on it. And look, I know I'm

Doug, okay? I'm Doug. Fine. Which nerd am I, everybody? That scene spoke to me as a kid because I was the type of person who was super detail-oriented in watching all these cartoons. And I was bothered when a xylophone played the wrong note when it wasn't correct. And now I know it's like it's a cartoon. They messed up or something was different or it doesn't matter. But those things were important to me then. I've come all the way around where now

those things are the things that I love about cartoons. Those inconsistencies exist. It's just like, those are like, oh yeah, that is magic. Toby, you were saying that like you have that scene, you were like really on both sides of that divide. Absolutely. I mean, it's my life all there together. It's like I'll have conversations where I'm playing both parts almost.

And I have to hold back from the genius at work thing sometimes. Or sometimes it's a useful thing. But it's also like, not to get too dark, but it's almost quaint how tedious those questions are. It's like I'd be grateful for not loaded questions now. Honestly, thinking about where nerd culture is, that being your issue with your fans is kind of cute. Yeah, adorable.

The fact that these fans aren't taking your work and spinning it into grist for like a culture war or like sending you death threats or like you know it's actually like it's actually like kind of sweet that people just care about the material uh we don't really get that that much on on later commentaries they talk about i think in the year 2000 they had a trivia off against fans of the show the writers and then they realized how little they know about the simpsons compared to fans so i think this is like a preview of that real life event yeah i guess this anger at the hardcore fans here is more there's later they're different anger

at the hardcore fans but here it is that i guess the writers issues are that care about this minutiae that doesn't matter to the quality of the Simpsons. And you're wrong for feeling that. And I think, too, it's a very wish-fulfillment moment for the writers who wish they could just be straight-up mean to a bad question asked by somebody. Even then, they couldn't do it. Like now, I wouldn't think. If Mac Reigning at a panel insulted somebody like Homer does there, that would have just been the news everywhere.

You can't do that. Well, and you know that that joke when he insults that fan it's kind of a groaner it's not like a bust out laugh out loud moment i mean what is the what is really the best reaction you could get from being so cruel it's tough because it's like when you're when you're in that kind of setting especially now especially you know all the panels are filmed and everything it's like really it's like oh we're performing for them you know it's like it's almost like a flip yeah yeah i think it's i remember when i first started doing cons i mean i've certainly been them and when we would do panels and and we would have questions i would be really nice because i super relate to everyone who comes to me and asks these kind of questions and is paying such close attention.

And I think some of the people who are detail oriented, especially with Steven, I love it because we put a huge amount of details in it. So it was like a match made in heaven when we were doing our panels. But I think people on the studio side would be like, oh, you're so nice to everybody. Like it was new. And I'm like, well, of course. I mean, I was I came to Comic-Con as a fan for years and years before I was on the other side.

And I mean, I actually don't know if I ever made, I never made it to ask a question, but I would be in that room. You'd be wondering, like, those things, those details. Yeah. I think I'd be pouring over details. And when people do, like, yeah, have those detail-oriented questions

about something you worked on, it's very exciting to me. Yeah, I'm usually just very grateful that someone cares. Yeah. Now, I think, Rebecca, when you did the Best Show last year and you were fielding fan questions, that was so... You fielded those very well. I think one of my favorites was the person who asked what gemstone

that Jasper had become now after fusing with the corrupted gem and oh yeah people will listen to hear like a good way to answer those types of questions oh thanks i remember how i think it was something it's something like tiger sight yes it's zebra jasper i mean we have the stones on the model sheets to pull colors from so we always know what everyone is and and i think there is kind of a delicate art to answering those questions, because when you let people know a lot about the process of how something is made, the magic disappears for them. I have a theory about this.

You kind of have to give them both. Should I say my donut theory? Oh, yeah, yeah, the donut hole. Is this boring? I mean, I think it's really interesting. to give them both should i say my donut theory oh yeah yeah the donut hole is this boring i mean it might i think it's really i think it's really interesting okay okay i have a theory it's that it's like a donut where if you're on the outside of the donut and you don't know anything about animation you can experience it fully it'll wash over you and you'll enjoy it once you start to

learn a little more you're inside of the donut where all of a sudden you appreciate it less because you know a little of how it's made, but you don't know so much about it. Once you get all the way into the donut hole, you know so much about animation that all of a sudden, all the limitations, all the little issues that are being worked around, you can see all the problem solving, and suddenly it's magic again. It's really exciting again. Yeah, but you would have to know every facet of tv animation production to get there and just be like oh that's how they did every little piece of this oh my gosh and they

pushed a little harder here and that's how they got this done and wow they you know took this error and they turned it into something that read you know like like but you can't everywhere in the it's the donut part is sad because it makes you like things less you think oh i i get how this works i see how this was a trick and it's saying yeah we're seeing seeing that something is fake makes it less magic for you yes well and it's it's sort of i mean animation is magic it's it's a magic trick that's its origin yeah so it's like you know you're either just experiencing magic or you're a magician in training or you're a wizard you know you have to that's the donut

that's my theory and yeah being fully on the inside actually we were in the car coming over here and i was talking about the shot where homer is uh auditioning and he's in front of that gelled light and i'm like oh that was a bite i was like that's a bipack shot where they you know where they shoot a silhouette version of the character in front of an effect so that they can get that transparency. And it's a cool in-camera thing that you can only do on cells. And it's super interesting. And I'm like, who is that interesting to? And they didn't have it on the reverse shot.

Exactly. What a horrible mistake. And yeah, we were talking about um there's a lot of lip sync related humor in this episode yes absolutely which is really i just think it's lovely yeah the lack of lip sync on poochie himself well bark yeah exactly we're getting we're getting ahead of ourselves i'm sorry well i also think that too like the they're making a joke with the 2f09 thing too because because even the most hardcore Simpsons fans I know, they would never refer to something by production code. Even we don't know that.

We can name the first and last episodes, maybe the second episode, but never the production codes. Now it's just when I know, like, oh, this was produced in season six by the spinoff group of Al Jean. That's why it's at production code. The Simpsons production codes are incredibly confusing. And I remember being a kid and reading the production codes in the end credits, hoping to know what episode number it was, and then not getting that information that I wanted. We actually put the production codes at the front of all the OK KO episodes. Yeah, on OK KO. Because it's for our younger selves, basically.

Yeah, we were like, we'll put the production code front and center. Because someone is on a wiki somewhere putting that information in. So we got to be sure about it. Did you guys look up which Simpsons episode was 2F09? No. It's Homer the Great. Really? Okay.

Really? And also the sentiment of like, I hope somebody gets fired for that blunder. Like that, this hardcore fan is like wishing ill on the production team. and also the sentiment of like i hope somebody gets fired for that blunder like that this hardcore fan is like hope wishing ill on the production team that's not that's not so good that's where you get into people who are trapped in the wrong part of the donut where it's like i'm using that information to make me mad at the cartoon and it's like i know a little bit i know just enough to be mad at the perceived failings and i think that's kind of where we are uh you know and i don't want to come off as a searing indictment of the nerd culture that we live in.

But I do think there is like people who know just enough to know who made a thing, who stars in a thing, and then use that information to, you know, stalk people, harass them off of their accounts to create campaigns against people who they think are causing all the ills to the direction of the movie that they love. People try to get me fired from podcasts I co-own. I'm really used to that. We've both seen our own feature of that.

I've probably done a lot less than you guys have. Nothing on the scale of a tv uh show run i say this xylophone thing at work all the time yeah i say this all the time i i think when we have something that we did we just caught we just caught a shot this was last week oh yeah one frame steven has three four fingers on one of his hands you know this because i came home i went ian there's a frame where he's got three fingers on one of his hands. I know, it's like on a single frame.

Yes, on a single frame. You know, and that's when, this is sort of a mantra of like, it's okay. Exactly. Magic xylophone. Yeah, it's magic xylophone. There's a shot in Sworn of the Sword where Amethyst is in the wrong outfit. Two shots, actually. I don't know how I missed that.

We just had one. We just had one. Yeah, where it was like Enid is supposed to be wearing gloves and then in one scene you see her hands and she doesn't have gloves on. They're mispainted, yeah.

They're mispainted. And it's just like, look, we watch these things 35 to 40 times probably in production and it's like we should catch everything but somehow though some of those things do slip through and though i mean i think we do a farsight better than

all of the cartoons we watched as kids i'd i'd heard a little bit from people who uh used to work at deke on like those super mario brothers cartoons and they said you know we got the footage off of the plane from asia put sound effects under it, and put it on TV the next week. We didn't care. You can tell. And you can tell. There's characters saying other characters' names. But as a kid, I was just sort of happy it was there.

I was happy to just say the Mario Brothers were moving and talking. Exactly. I don't have to look too close with that though i as a little kid i think the ones that made me the most man were superhero ones because i already had my comic nerd obsession there and so if i saw batman's insignia inverted into color oh yeah that happened all the time like that would and i get or spider-man's costume go wrong like those are complicated i i shouldn't I shouldn't have been mad about those things as a kid. I would get like, how do you get that wrong? It's Batman's head.

Someone hopefully did indeed get fired for that bluntness. I guess it's also like, this makes me kind of break out in a sweat hearing this question from Doug too. Because I don't, I have asked these questions at Comic-Cons in my teens. I don't think I was too mean about her saying somebody should get fired. But I was like, Hey, why did Vertigo cancel this book? Like I would ask that kind of question.

And now I see like, I could have been a little nicer to those people. I feel bad about that now. That's the space. You did it right. That's what it's for. Good for you. That's,

that's why it's there. This is, there's a, you know, there's a place for that that's that's why it's there this is there's a you know there's a place for that it's a socially acceptable place to ask those questions yeah i think you know as someone who i get very nervous on the other side of that but that's the place yeah that's where it's meant to happen then they start the signing at this comic shop too which i i swear the people in the line to go into the comic shop, they are so specific. It's one of those ones that feels like, well, these are animators. The animators.

Maybe. They're very specific. I forget what Stephen Dean Moore looks like. I think he drew himself into Hurricane Eddie. He's like the ponytail or something. Yeah. That's his look. Which I think is also the guy who plays keyboards and also sells the pools.

Works in the pool show. And then comic book guy, actually, this is one of the most comic book guy-y moments ever, too. The reason a lot of people become comic shop owners is to be the arch nerd in the room. You know, I boss all of you around now. I cut to the front of the line and get all the signatures from Homer Simpson. Yeah, comic book guy, I always think about the comic book stores of my youth. Like the one I grew up, the one in the town I grew up was very similar. One I will always remember is when I went to college and I lived in New York, there was a comic book store on the same street as my school and yeah yeah they're not there anymore but um

they're gone i think so yeah but the thing about them was that they were like it was like comic book guy extra edition it was like going into a record store oh you know like the guy there was very rude to me like they would like if, when you brought stuff up, that always happened. Yeah. But when you brought stuff up to the counter, they would judge your worth based on like, it was really, it was very intense. Yeah.

Oh my God. I had a comic shop like that too. I know I had another comic shop where the guy just didn't care whatever he sold. He's like, whatever your pull is, just buy it. I don't care. I haven't read comics in 10 years.

The comic shop I went to is mostly about selling lotto tickets comics were just in fargo north dakota there was only one major comic book store and the guy who ran that place was very gentle he was very kind i come in and be like i read about this thing called neon genesis evangelion can i rent that and then he'd be like oh sorry our AVA volume 1 VHS is rented out but might I recommend Pat Labor and then by the end we were like trading fans up

VHSes that's so nice I was the Evangelion trader in my community like I was the kid who had every VHS and so

I just would be like okay wanna start here you go volume 1 and then they eventually they just

copied my copies of it. And shared, spread that around. So, I'm sorry, ADV. You killed them. You did not do it now enough. My shop was Big Planet Comics in Maryland, in Bethesda, Maryland. That's where I would always go. They sold my comics

when I was like 15 and 16. That's so nice! Wow, that's great. They refused to do that when I brought my comics in. My local one, Comics to Astonish when I was like 15 and 16. That's so nice. Wow, that's great. They refused to do that when I brought my comics in. Oh, gotcha. Yeah, my local one, Comics to Astonish in Columbia, Maryland, they didn't sell any zines, but I wanted to, I kept trying to like, hey, will you put these in the store? My local places, as a kid, they never sold zines.

I never saw sold zines at places until I moved to Berkeley and like Comic Relief there, which was a great store. And that's called Fantastic Comics. It's still a good store. They were selling zines. I was like, whoa, you can do this? And same with like multiple bookstores there would sell too. It was really cool. Android's Dungeon strikes me as the kind of place that would sell zines.

It seems like it's kind of just whatever comic book guy would want to put on the shelf now rebecca when you sold your comics were they on the zine shelf or they or they alongside like the monthly floppies like where were they placed they were on the zine shelf with like johnny the homicidal maniac and that kind of that kind of lenore you know it was over there also they were goth comics so appropriately categorized i mean they were goth comics. So they were appropriately categorized. I mean, they looked like the work of a 15-year-old. But genre-wise, they were in the right place. Yeah. I suppose.

No one bought them, by the way. I have one last genius at work comment. It's that when he's making that comment about a meaningless mistake that is in an episode. Sitting next to him is his friend Benjamin, who is colored the wrong color. He's a redhead in all his previous appearances. And so that is a thing you would say, I hope somebody gets fired for that blood there. But when it's in that scene, do you think it was intentional? That they're like, is somebody going to complain about this when they see it?

I feel like if it was intentional, they would have bragged about it on the commentary. Yeah, I think so. Because telling someone the instruction to get something wrong on purpose is actually very difficult. It's more work. It's much more work. It's so much more work. Like, I think on Steven, in

an early episode, the remake Steven and the stevens we wanted to have in the shot where there were like a ton of stevens we wanted to have a pilot there's a pilot and he's there he's there but they put him more on model so yeah but they made him look more like more like steven basically there's there's one steven that has like a little bit of a neck yeah that's pilot steven but they made him but they made him more on model and it's like we should we could have gone through the well we sent the pilot model yeah but no one had been dry and also it was a different studio so they never they didn't draw the pilot exactly so they had no

relationship to the way he looked in the pilot so we would have had to call it out like this is a specific thing that we're getting wrong on purpose we sent a model for it but we didn't say it's specifically this one and this is the way we want you to draw this thing it would have been like a lot of legwork right they they did me the favor of making him look congruous with the stevens around him exactly which was the opposite of the point but then it looked so good that i didn't change it. Yeah, that's the thing. It just looked good. We talk about that a lot. People still notice it. Yeah.

With a slight knack? Or just, like, getting something wrong is so much more difficult than, like, having it be, like, or getting something wrong on purpose. Yes. Or even just getting something that's, like, subtly weird. Because, like, you know, the studios you work with and the entire production entire production pipeline like all that stuff is in place to get something done correctly yeah uh and cleanly and all that stuff so anything you want to do that's off from that it takes extra steps and extra thought exactly there are so many chances for mistakes to happen i mean there's 10,000 drawings in every episode and it only takes one frame of something being off or one, you know, miscolored pull or something to be sent

where it's like, oh, now this character looks like this only this one time. So I feel if it was an intentional mistake, they probably would have called attention to it, not just on the commentary, but I think within the show, like with two homers in one scene, like from that one episode. Oh, yeah. They would have fluffed his hair. Yeah, yeah. Now it's time for Poochie's big debut. He's finally about to do it. two homers in one scene like from that oh yeah they would have fluffed his hair yeah yeah now

it's time for poochie's big debut he's finally about to do it i i really love the little marge adr line there on the establishing i swear it's adr because it's just you're saying i'm so happy everyone could be here for homer's big debut because party saying poochie's based on clarity note on this scene uh how do we know that they're supposed to be there for that debut good solve good solve it is a good the crowd there seems odd uh a few odd choices i love Yeah, I have a clarity note on this scene. How do we know that they're supposed to be there for that debut? Good solve, good solve. It is a good solve. The crowd there seems odd. A few odd choices.

I love that bar fly. One of the bar flies is there. I just followed Barney in, but Moe is there. Yeah, well, I think Homer invited everyone at the bar, and then the extended family and Abe brought Jasper with him, and then the kids just asked for their best kid friends. I feel like Janie should be there. Lisa should have brought in Janie on there.

Mo wore a suit. That's so cute. And Flannery's just being polite. What does he call it? Impian Chimpy. It's really cute. Behold the future of comedy.

Pochi! Look, Screechy! It's our new friend, Poochie! What's that name again? I forgot. The name's Poochie D, and I rock the telly. I'm half Joe Camel and a third Bonsarelli. I'm the Kung Fu Hippie from Gangsta City. I'm a rapping surfer. You to fool that pity. Oh, Poochie is one outrageous dude.

He's totally in my face. Where are they going to get to the fireworks factory? Can somebody tell me what the hell is going on? Mitch, help me out here. Quiet. You're missing the jokes. What is the missing part of Poochie's personality that is not defined? I don't know. It's a half and a third. We need to be able to separate.

There's a sixth that's missing. This is weird, but listening to it without watching it, I really like Poochie's theme music. It's pretty good. Oh, oh yeah it's really good i would like to mention that what i guess is like the love theme from itchy and scratchy that but they like they've used that over and over like in itchy and scratchy like cartoons it's a great way to just set up adventure. Poochie was rapping in the same year as Parappa. He raps before Parappa. Actually, Parappa in Japan was 1996, so who knows.

His posing is great. Everything Poochie does is great. He holds a surfboard while riding a skateboard. When he says Joe Camel, he pulls his nose down. That's a really good drawing. Krusty's hype beforehand is so like, no, nothing could equal that.

Like they already torpedoed their own show. Yeah. And I also like the fireworks factory thing that they keep promising viewers of fireworks factory. I think that's really why Poochie flopped in universe.

It's that you're just disappointed that you don't get the fireworks factory. And the final shot, he drives past the fireworks factory. The ends there's no payoff and over silence too yeah we've mentioned we've mentioned that already in the way that we think about the fireworks factory all the time at work but we like just had one of those where there's an episode coming up where like it's a whole crazy adventure but at the beginning someone meant that there's a mention like we're

gonna we're gonna go for some food and a bunch of other stuff happens and then someone in the room was like yeah hey we better see them get food at the end yeah where do they get their food like yeah good oh man we gotta put that in somewhere and in the i think it was in uh bart gets famous they and on their way to the box factory they drive past a slide factory and a fireworks testing range so they were almost at the joke in season five this This was the first time I caught that Poochie just drives right by it. And Bill Oakley mentioned that the you're missing the jokes

moment was also pulled from their real production life. At the premiere party for season seven, which was his co-written episode, we shot Mr. Burns part two, they're at the giant party for it, and he's mad that at this party, people aren't watching his

show. He's just like, why are you guys talking and drinking? You're missing the jokes! It's deeply, profoundly relatable. Whenever I'll watch something that I worked on with a friend or family member, the fact is that if you're watching something I worked on with me, it's a lose-lose situation.

There is no amount of attention you can pay that will be satisfying to me so it's it's just like never watch something i worked on also i've never been at a premiere party that had optimal viewing uh we tried environment for yeah it just doesn't work and his premiere party well i've i've had that you're missing the jokes moment of just if i want to show someone a funny like cartoon or video on youtube like come on guys let's watch this i think it's really good and then if you stop paying attention to minute eight i'm just like you're missing the show yeah it's like if they start if they start a conversation i'm just like i i'm so upset right

now and it's also cool to see mo coming back as calling March Midge. That's a nice runner. If he was Rostified 10%, that takes a chunk out of the sixth. Yeah. But there's still something else. Well, we don't know if the Rostification did affect all aspects of him. I would imagine. Well, it's not in Joe Camel or Fonzarelli. Joe Camel, I think, got pretty rastified in some of those ads.

Didn't he have dreads in some of the ads? Yeah. Oh, so the overlap is there. Yeah, the overlap is definitely there. Though I don't know if Fonzarelli ever did. Joe Camel embraced all cultures. Was this episode made before or after Joe Camel was basically made illegal? Oh, yeah, that's a good question.

By 97, he was dead i think so i yeah actually he was definitely gone because two years earlier in sideshow bob roberts they were making the joke that only birch barlow was friends with joe camel who was being attacked by everybody so he must be dead by this point if that was two years this was like a joke on how craven of a character Joe Camel was right right genius at work moment is that menthol moose exists in the same universe as Joe Camel that's interesting

okay let's hear the second half of Poochie catch on the flip side dude masters hey kids always recycle. To the extreme! Busted!

That stunk! Well, what did everybody think? Oh, gee. Homer, I can honestly say that was the best episode of Impy and Chimpy I've ever seen. Yeah, you should be very proud, Homer. You got a beautiful home here. So, it was pretty okay, huh? Mom, can we go to bed without dinner? Yes, we can.

I liked it. Didn't I? Oh, you don't want to know what I really think. Now look sad and say don't. Don't. That's very relatable. Yeah. The sound design of them running upstairs is one of my favorite

things especially the way that the the door slams are lined up perfectly so they're three in a row there's no way they could have each gotten there at once but you need to hear three door slams and there they are just one after another that's the evolution of genius at work yeah it's when the wrongness you understand the readability this is the donut hole that i'm talking exactly that's what that's that's like when when we're doing like sound design and you like when you get one of those moments where you're just like oh this is technically incorrect and not physically possible but it's readable and that's what's funny about it you know that is yeah that's the xylophone right there the magic xylophone yeah well no no that's

not the magic but you know the other thing yeah the other thing is i love nancy's delivery of that ah for nelson it's so good uh it's great well a great sound design too because if the itchy and scratchy producers did a bad job of having just silence over the end to only make it feel deflated but it makes it even better when it's just driving by the fireworks factory silence that's done yeah and then homer like, what did everybody think? I would never ask that at a thing of like, after my mom would have read something of mine on the

internet, I would like, I don't want to know what you think. Don't tell me. And everybody just looking away. And the best episode of Impy and Chimpy I've ever seen. That's another amazing quote. Poor, poor Homer though. It's not his fault. It is the writer. episode of impy and shimpy i've ever seen it's pretty that's another amazing quote for poor homer though he it's not his fault it is the writer yeah homer really did his best homer did

a great job i mean all things considered that that was his first time voice acting yeah awesome has homer rapped previously to this oh yeah oh yeah. Right. It's Hammer! He was told to never do that again. Mr. Plow Rap. He pitched to Mr. Plow Rap, and also he told children to go back into their homes over a speaker in the... Right. The rap is so funny. The Kung Fu Hippie from Gangster City

is really good. It's incredible. In my household, if one person starts that rap, the other person will just immediately jump in. There's a bit of a conflict in this episode that we were talking about earlier, me and Henry. In this case, the fans are right. The fans are absolutely right. But they're also criticizing fans before this.

And that's why it's the Rorschach test episode. Because if you're a fan, you're watching it, and you're like, oh, The Simpsons is on my side making fun of how shows get ruined by this stuff. It kind of has its cake and eats it too. Yeah. You know what? I think the other sixth has to be Mr. T because he says you're the fool I pity. Oh, perfect.

There it is. There it is. We solved it. But that is also what's garbage about Poochie is that he is an amalgamation of a million popular things. He has his like, wiggity,wiggity-wow in the guitar. It's another amazing shot. And it's just like, well, what if he was Wayne from Wayne's World

or any of the other rocking guys? He has no personality to himself. And he has a fanny pack. This was the first time I caught that he has a fanny pack. He's kind of grown on me, honestly. I miss him. And I mean, they did bring him back in several non-canon appearances. It's always nice to see him.

I like seeing him. They should have him more regularly on the show. And they should be asking, where's Poochie? Okay, worst episode ever. Let's get into that. I'm the worst. How we use electricity can be smarter, cleaner, and greener. At Electric Ireland, we can help guide you there.

You see, our new Net Zero Hub has all you need to know about smart meter plans, EV tariffs, solar panels, and much more. Making your usage clearer, your trips greener, your home cozier, and your world brighter. Find our net zero hub at electricireland.ie. Poochie was a soulless byproduct of committee thinking. You can't be cool just by spouting a bunch of worn-out buzzwords. Don't have a cow, Lise. Bart's right. Let's none of us have a cow. All that matters is that the fans of the show liked it.

Last night's Itsy and Scratchy was, without a doubt, the worst episode ever. Rest assured that I was on the Internet within minutes, registering my disgust throughout the world Hey, I know it wasn't great, but what right do you have to complain? As a loyal viewer, I feel they owe me What? They've given you thousands of hours of entertainment for free

What could they possibly owe you? I mean, if anything, you owe them Worst episode ever So I know we're supposed to be on Bart's side as viewers But this is the one part of the show I don't like. As someone who makes free entertainment, I never want to think that of any listener. I don't like negative comments, but I don't want to think anyone owes me for what I've done. Watching it again, it did feel a little indulgent.

Bart is the wrong character for this, I think. Yeah, but it can't be Homer. That's too smart a thought for Homer. I mean, Lisa's the one giving all the incisive commentary on TV shows. Yeah, Lisa has the good thoughts in this episode about TV shows. But it would feel even weirder if Lisa said it, I think.

I don't think there... It would feel wrong for Lisa to be this confrontational Nolan comic book guy, too, I think. Yeah, the scene's like a useful thought experiment. But as far as a part of the story, it's kind of like, meh. But the real-life version of it that i relate to is much more like sad where it's kind of like you know i was i was working on regular show from like season three to season five and like i basically i was on the show long enough to watch people who grew up with the

show like grow out of the show i would recognize names of people from like reading their posts online and then seeing them be like i'm not really into the show anymore I would recognize names of people from like reading their posts online and then seeing them be like, I'm not really into the show anymore, you know, because they've grown, like their brains are different now. And then I'm like, but I'm still here. Don't go. But no, no, you can't. No, like I'd be just like depressed about the fact that, you know, people grow and people change. And honestly, most people are only into something for a short period of time. Like most people aren't like me where they're still into the same thing forever. Most people are like, oh, there was a time in my life where that was important to me and then I moved on. But I was like, but no, I didn't move on.

I'm still working. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like so much of the stuff I've worked on, the people who watch it are paying with their time and often their personal details and info that they're giving to whatever company is streaming it to them so like it's not really for free a lot of the time so i don't know and you're right about it being a rorschach test because yeah there was a time when i really was on bart's side but i don't know if i really see it that way as much as I used to. Oh, well, in Worst Episode Ever, that statement, though, that, I mean, that, I feel that that still sums up so much of what people feel about things about a piece of media online. And I'm as guilty as anyone on this, but the feeling of it is like, if you see something, say another movie in a franchise you like, let's say wars you see a new one of those and you feel

like you have to have an extreme reaction one way or the other you have to feel this is the best one of these ever or it has to be the worst ever it's not a notable opinion if you just kind of feel in the middle of that and i think that's i mean they're quoting worst episode ever straight from alt.tv.simpsons yeah that was regularly set for eight years at this point. Yeah. Every new episode was the worst. I mean, I love reading those capsules and just seeing it's astonishing

how people hate it. Yeah. This is some of the greatest classic. Yeah. I think I mentioned Don Del Grande before on this podcast.

Where he has like the angriest reviews for like a decade. Yeah. I hope he's happier now. Like if you're watching, if you're a fan of something and you like if you're watching if you're a fan of something you've invested your time and energy into it it's scary when you first experience

like the thing of the thing that you don't like as much like if you're watching a show and then suddenly there's an episode you're like oh i didn't like that one as much as the other ones there can be like a panic that happens where it's like oh no is my time with this thing over like is it bad now there are many shows where that's happened it's and it's hard to like temper that and be like okay look maybe this episode just wasn't for me. This episode was for someone else. And hopefully the next episode will be for me. And obviously, sometimes shows do just go downhill.

But it's like, okay, please relax a little bit. And being a nerd, it's so tribal, too. And if something doesn't go right, or if there's an episode you don't like as much, it basically reflects on you and all the time you've put into that show. And then you're like, you have to attack it even more mercilessly because you know about it. And if other people find out that you like this show and it's got this terrible episode or if that's a reflection, it's a reflection of you. And it just it's it gets very complicated i remember pulling up some of those old simpsons feedback yeah those capsules yeah when i was on adventure time and these amazing season two season three adventure time episodes

would be coming out and they would just get slammed by people like i remember too young coming out it's one of my favorite episodes ever, and people getting all mad online. And I'd be like, okay, but look at this. Look at this amazing Simpsons episode that everyone thought was terrible. We're definitely in this time. It was sort of always my

input. What you're describing, that literally happened to me with Adventure Time. I saw the first episode of Adventure Time that I didn't love, and I was like, oh, this is my favorite thing this year. It wasn't too young, was it? Cause too young is great. No,

too young is incredible. Oh my God. But it was before I worked in animation. I was, I was, and I was watching the show every week and it was, there was like one or two where I was like, wait,

these aren't as good as the ones before. Oh no. Is my time of loving Adventure Time over? And of course it wasn't. And I've been obsessed with the show until it ended. But like that, that what you're describing is, you know, i wasn't on the internet letting my hate known to the masses but uh but i had like that fear was was in me yeah and this is when i think comic book

guy officially became the simpsons fan avatar for the creators on the show i mean it won't be too long until saddlesore galactica when he's literally wearing a worst episode ever shirt and complaining that this episode is recreating his story they've already done well as people that run a simpsons podcast now we get we now have echoes of criticisms from the past now and i'm gonna say everybody calm down it's gonna be fine everything's gonna be okay i had one steven universe question related to this scene so tiger philanthropist oh yeah i feel there's a scene that's kind of like this yes that's true okay was was that intentional or um i mean i think it's impossible not to feel that way eventually when you're seeing so much feedback and you want to i feel feel like we're making entertainment, you know,

we want to do a good job, but at a certain point, I mean, when Steven is literally shaking Lars being like, what do you want? Like you don't really feel that it's like, you know, the audience is vast and people want completely opposite things from one another and you can't, you can't make everyone happy. And you also can't be working. I think ultimately what we're saying with tiger philanthropist and in general is you have to do what you're going to do and if you are trying to cater it you will inevitably fail because you have to anyway no but it's true it's like the audience everybody wants

different things and yes i like that scene more than this worst episode ever seen because it comes from like, Steven isn't being Bart of saying how the audience should feel. All Steven wants is to please his audience in that scene. He's like, but I gave you the sequel you asked for. What do you want? Just tell me. I'll give it to you. Yeah.

But it's the truth. He's a complicated teenage boy. He doesn't have to have himself figured out. No one in our audience does. Yeah. That's true though. I mean like when you, anytime I've ever tried to give someone exactly what they asked for,

it's never had the reaction. Yeah. It's always, it's always been weird and wrong. Cause there's a, there's a purity that's lost. And also like when someone, you get that,

when you have something delivered, the thing you thought you wanted, it never feels the way you expect it to feel. And also, when you have something delivered, the thing you thought you wanted, it never feels the way you expect it to feel. And I think when you're a fan, yeah, you want to want something. You don't want to get the thing that you wanted. Because usually when you do, then it falls short in some new, unknown way

that you couldn't have predicted. I think also, I mean, I have a whole theory about this, but I think the closer you get to guessing what somebody else wants, the more that person will probably dislike what you've made. Because you'll never be able to read their mind or make the thing that they would make because they would be the only ones that could make it. Just like we're the only people who can make exactly what we want

because we're the only people with our brains inside of our heads and our hands drawing our characters. So doing that kind of guesswork gets uncomfortably, there's like an uncanny valley thing that happens where it's like, this is not exactly what I want. It's just kind of like what I want. And once you get there, those hairs that are being split become so sensitive. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think it can be very frustrating for a person to see a version of a thing that's close to the thing they want, but it's just like just wrong enough to make you feel weird and bad. That's why it's always funny to watch the cottage industry of criticism sort of videos and stuff.

And it's like, but if you got exactly the thing that you're asking for, you know you would have another criticism. There would be another thing on top of that and another thing, you know. I feel like with those, I would love to see what they would make. I think it's not in the negative, not in the way where it's like, well, then you make something.

It would be so exciting if they would make something because usually, especially I think with Steven fans, what we want, even though it's very sensitive when it comes close, especially I think with Steven fans, what we want, even though it's very sensitive when it comes close, I think like I would like to, I would just, when I started the show, I really wanted to make people want to draw. And I think there's a lot of stories that haven't been told. And when people are like, this isn't quite me, this is almost me, but you didn't get it right. I'm like, oh my gosh, I really want to know you. I really want to meet you.

I want to see your thing. I think I'd really love it. Because we obviously have really similar sensibilities. We're like close. Yeah. So I'm excited by that closeness. Although I also feel like there's nothing I can do because I'll never break through and be someone who is not me.

Yeah. I mean, it's great when people are able to use those complicated emotions as fuel to create something. Because we do. I mean, it's great when people are able to use those complicated emotions as fuel to create something because like, we do that every day where it's like, when we're working on something,

it's like, we're always working in opposition to the things that have frustrated us in the past. And so I hope that there's lots of people who are frustrated

by the things that we're making who are going to make cooler, different versions of the things that we're making one day. I also,

yeah, I think I've definitely made a lot of close friends picking apart material, including you, Ian Jones-Corey. Absolutely. Really, really picking apart things that I both loved and hated at the same time. I mean, it's just exciting. It's a bit of an honor to see people do that to our shows, because I hope that that's something that's fostering friendships and creativity yeah it hurts though but i'm like oh man i really i really hope this is bringing people closer together yeah well i'd like to think of like what you guys came up from the

generation of simpsons and anime inspired by that and i just like imagine like what will the kids watching seed in the universe you know kko and regular show like what will they make 20 years from now like i'm excited to see yeah it's gonna be good yeah it's gonna be really good because i'll have had technology i certainly didn't have as a tween and a teen to be able to be making animation and i think some of those kids will maybe discover the simpsons you know and and it'll be interesting for them. Well, I wonder because I didn't go back and pour over the Flintstones, but you did. But I did.

As I was saying it, I was like, wait a second, no, no, no, this could, not only can this happen. It's ruined. Yeah. It did happen. But we talked to Josh Weinstein, and he said that he grew up with crappy cartoons, and modern day writers are way ahead of where he is now because they grew up with the simpsons so yeah i want to see what the writers of the future are going to do what would be so confused by it we cut to kent brockman and he's giving his review and i

i guess he's a stand-in for what they felt were like tv reviewers that were waiting to just pounce on the simpsons kind of like a the Saturday Night Dead reporters. I guess so, yeah. But I don't know. I guess I wasn't reading a ton of television reviews back then. I'm sure I read TV Guide regularly as a kid, but I don't recall the critical consensus turning on Simpsons at that point. Not then.

Could you open up Variety or whatever or LA Weekly and read a capsule review of last week's Simpsons episode, it feels like another representation of what they were reading online. We were talking about how it was a fantasy for something to be news, but for the Simpsons, that's not true. It was absolutely news.

I mean, it is true. On that Critic episode, Matt Groening was talking to the press. There were articles about that. Massive. When they kill you know, articles about that. Yeah, I mean. Massive.

So, I don't know. Yeah, when they kill a character, it makes news. Like, The Simpsons does make news like that and then gets commented on it back then of like, well, why did they kill Maude? Or why did they?

Right. You were literally flipping through a Newsweek that was like 100%. Yes, that's right. That special Newsweek, it's on Stans now. Oh, yeah.

100% Simpsons. Yeah. It's so funny. The day after we were like, oh, it being in a newspaper, that's right. That special news week. It's on Stans now. 100% Simpsons. It's so funny. The day after we were like, oh, it being in a newspaper, that's over. What a fantasy. Oh, wait, no. Our show.

It's a fantasy for the thing I work on. It's definitely a fantasy for us. They did their time, right? Yeah, absolutely. Didn't I just buy an Entertainment Weekly that had a Steven Dove thing Oh yeah that's true Steven genuinely got there

Yes absolutely And it's deserved So then we It's time for damage control At Itchy and Scratchy Central here What the hell happened Well I'd attribute the product failure To fundamental shifts in our key demographic

Coupled with the overall crumminess of Poochie. Oh, you gotta stop this thing! Please! I'm getting egged on the street! Do something! Do something! Hi, Mr. Myers. I've been doing some thinking, and I got some ideas to improve the show. I got it right here. One, Poochie needs to be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine. Two, whenever Poochie's not on screen, all the other characters should be asking, where's Poochie?

Three. Greg, Greg, just leave them right there on the floor on your way out. What we are missing here is that in a real-life situation, they could not react this on the fly to an animated program of this caliber. There were months in between. Not in 97,

especially. But I like the fiction that they can. Yeah. The other dream here is that if the audience didn't like something that resulted from a note that an executive gave there's no way they would blame anything before blaming the artists yeah you know they actually there should have been a moment where they called david silverman into the office like you designed this bad yeah how dare you because pucci was great in our idea the uh the where's pucci thing is almost like bechtel test levels of present i think in my life like

it's like when you watch something and someone's not there and people are like where's this but like i i see that happen and stuff all the time and i'm and i'm like where's pucci there it is like they're doing it yeah yeah when two yeah, they can't stop talking about the main character. Yeah. Like, why? Please. Yeah. Please have a story.

Have your own lives, please. Yeah, it gets to be, like, mildly disturbing at times when an entire universe of a show revolves around one person. Yeah. I just love the animation, too, on Krusty just screaming at everybody. Like, please do something. And poor Homer, like, he just wants to help, and he's giving notes, and they just, like, Homer seems to take it genuinely.

They're like, well, they'll read it after I put it on the ground. And then we get a very Jay Leno moment of him hiding in the closet and listening, which I don't know if Jay Leno ever confirmed that was a thing. It was just in Late Shift, the book and the movie that Jay Leno hid to listen in on that they were going to cancel his show and even use that against him. It's very dramatic. I hope it's true. I think it's a joke that Homer walks past all the hate mail

only to find out through the discussion that people hate Poochie. I don't know if they communicate that very well, but it's something I picked up much later. While sitting on a box of death threats. And this is the other reaction, too. I feel like they do kind of skip a step here. I think they would have tried to retool him. That's what happened on a million sitcoms, even back then.

It was just like, oh, people don't like this one character. What if we gave them a sweater what if we changed their backstory instead of just straight up killing off the character to never

see them again this is another of my favorite lines I haven't played the line in the episode because I feel like every line in this is my favorite

there's too many there's way too many in this episode but this is another great one listen guys we gotta do something about

Poochie there's only one thing we can do. And they said they were going to kill Poochie off. Really? Oh, how terrible. Yes, terrible. It's not your fault, Homer. It's those lousy writers.

They make me madder than a yak and heat. You're right, Marge. It's not my fault. I'm not going to let him treat Poochie like dirt anymore just because he's the new guy. Right on, Mr. S. Put a sock in it, Roy. Put a sock in it, Roy. That's another great, yeah.

Me and Bob talked a little about this beforehand. The Marge is yakking heat line I like it as a line that Marge is in metatextually Marge is insulting the writers and as punishment they give her a bad joke I like that there's that but there's also oh it's not so easy is it

to write a snappy line that's kind of how I was interpreting it what she would come up with without the writers writing her jokes it's a very ghost mutt style answer i've read it the punishment way i don't i don't feel like that's like a natural margism or something so she were left to her own devices i think she would say it works both ways which is why it's really good it's you know it does take the creativity of a writer to come up with a good line but also she should be punished yeah well also it takes the creativity of a writer to come up with a good line but also she should be punished yeah well also it takes the creativity of a writer to come up with something as dumb as yak and heat

it sounds like a johnny carson punch line though yeah or something you'd hear on just any like not good 90s sitcom i though i mean you also hear those stories about like how on sitcoms they would write things to like punish actors like that was actually like a plot on that that i love lisa kudrow show the comeback and like that was a big plot on the show they constantly gave her awful things to do as punishment because the writers were mad at her on mystery science theater they always made joel hodgson wear hats because he hated hats and on um do you mean the mayor of Beach City? The very same. Yeah, you can't do that on television.

Apparently, that's where sliming came from. Yes, I heard that. When the kids, if a kid got too big for his britches, they'd be like, oh, you got to do a slime scene. That's just the most Freudian thing. It's pretty bad. I mean, that EP sounded like bad news to me. Yeah. But also the punishment of Roy,

that they are live punishing Roy on screen for even buffering the screen. So then we get to the VO session, and Homer is standing up to those lousy writers. Are you prepared to die, Poochie? No, I am not. Oh, cut, cut, cut, cut. Just stick to the script as written, Homer.

You're supposed to say, please, cut off my head. I don't deserve to live. Never. You can't just kill off a classic TV character. Poochie could be bigger than curly fries. But first he has to win back the audience. That's why I'm going to read these lines I wrote myself with my own two hands.

Forget it, Homer. We can do this show without you if we have to. But not without me. Oh, jeez. Let him try the new lines. All right. All right. We'll try it. Action. Hey right. All right. We'll try.

Action. Hey, Poochie. You look like you've got something to say. Do you? Yes, I certainly do. Hello there, Itchy. I know there's a lot of people who don't like me and wish I would go away. But I think we got off on the

wrong foot. I know I can come off a little proactive and for that I'm sorry. But if everyone could find a place in their hearts for the little dog nobody wanted, I know we can make him laugh and cry until we grow old together.

And cut! In the original scene, Poochie, not only is he killed, he's begging to be murdered. He deserves it. Please cut off my head. It's also a bad cartoon that they're about to make. Yeah, well, because any character can be someone's favorite character. So to so hurt Poochie like that, it's pretty mean to your audience. I mean, I guess he could come back next week since it's a scratchy do.

That's true. After getting killed. Until they sign that affidavit. Yeah, it's that affidavit. Yeah. I love Homer standing up for the character and then June having his back. That's a really sweet moment.

It's very sweet. Yeah. Again, that's why I kind of wish there's no time for this episode it's such a super packed episode but a little more with June

would have been fun I like that Homer's speech is kind of maudlin it would be very weird if an itchy and scratchy actually stopped and had that speech

in it like growing old together yeah but Homer's intention so do you guys think when they're giving him the slow clap that they all know

they're going to just change the line later or do they think they mean it at one point and then they change their minds um i think they think they mean it and then someone changed their mind between yeah that's kind of how i always read it yeah i always read it as them actually being surprised that homer wrote an effective line that was actually pretty touching and you know but at the end of the day they got right they got the day, they've got to make the thing. They've got to make the thing. I think Krusty shut it down, ultimately.

Well, I always wondered if it was Alex Rocca or George Meyer Jr. making the call, since he's the one who voices the changed line. I wonder if that was ultimately him. It must have been, yeah. Because otherwise they would have gotten anyone else to do it. And when they show the other writers

acting in shock, it's just all the Simpsons staff there. And my favorite is they had the Max Stone grandma there, but they just used the character model of very tall man. It's a sweet little speech by Homer, but it also wouldn't, I don't think, people would have just

crapped on that too. They would have just said like, oh, now they're trying to make us tug at our heartstrings like poochie i hate him even more it's very interesting because homer's basically like his his motivation is arguing for something that sucks yeah and so basically he's arguing for like the value of an idea then that like you know hey with the right execution like let's not let's not throw away all of our hard work which is interesting yeah so homer's finally going to show off his new cartoon to bart and lisa Like, let's not throw away all of our hard work, which is interesting. Yeah. So Homer's finally going to show off his new cartoon to Bart and Lisa. Now, kids, I know you love the old Poochie, but the new one's going to be better than 10 Super Bowls.

I don't want to oversell it. Judge for yourself. Well, look who's here. Hi, Poochie. You look like you've got something to say. Do you? Yes, I certainly do. I have to go now. My planet needs me.

Wow, Poochie came from another planet? Uh, I guess. Hey, that wasn't supposed to happen. Those Sphinx double-crossed me. Poochie's dead! Now, kids, we all know that sometimes when cartoon characters die, they're back again the very next week. That's why I'm presenting this sworn affidavit that Poochie will never, ever, ever return. This document conforms to all applicable laws and statutes. Yeah!

Oh, yeah! The second time Blue-Haired Lawyer is just on hand to step into the frame. I like that the children wait for the lawyer. Yeah. They're like, we need confirmation before we cheer. They recognize the significance of him, yeah. Are they crusty brand legal forms?

Yeah, it was! They're binding. In a scroll, too. They recognized the significance of him. Are they crusty brand legal forms? Yeah, it was. They're binding. In a scroll, too. That's a pretty good affidavit in a scroll form. So they're pulling him off to his own planet. I mean, that's just become fan lingo of when a character is written off hastily into a show. That's immortal. That's something that's used by everyone for everything and rightfully so.

And even the music gets crappier during that scene for some reason. But another really great piece of sound design is when the cell lifts up, there's like individual page flaps every time it happens.

Oh, yeah. Which is like, that wouldn't actually happen. Someone sound designed that. So why would you hear that? Yeah. It doesn't even, it's not even the sound

of it sliding as an individual page. I believe the scene number for that scene is written on the cell, too. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's just beautiful. That's just poetry. That kind of thing is really hard to execute. It's actually like a weirdly well-observed thing that Bart suddenly finds Poochie interesting as he gets taken away.

That certainly happens to me when I'm watching shows. It's like, wait a second, now that that character's gone, I want them back. Yeah, I'm suddenly interested. That's how I like with Raiden in Metal Gear Solid 2. It's just like, oh wait, now I know that now he's a cyborg. I think this guy's pretty interesting. I can't wait to play as Raiden. He was a Poochie.

He was a Poochie as well, I would say. I agree. But poor Homer just gets screwed over by them and didn't trust it. He was just a first-time voice actor. They're not going to. I can see them leaving him out of the process. Of course.

I feel bad for him, though. Also, better than 10 Super Bowls is another thing. Both Homer and Krusty are overselling this in advance. It's not a good idea. But yeah, the way that that cartoon was produced, it really seems like they got very far into production before deciding to get rid of Fuji.

That's the thing about it that's so interesting to me. Well, they turn his head, but it doesn't have lip sync, which means they may or may not have actually animated a scene of him talking. It's a close-up. that's like an intimate moment. It seems like they might have animated Homer's speech. Right, because it's chopped up at what seems to be after the fact. They got it back, and Krusty saw it and was like, fix this.

If they had gotten, well, depending on the order of things, if they'd gotten his takes and put them in and realized they didn't work and that they could have done a scene silently where animation played out, where things actually happened. That's why it seems like they actually animated to his track and then did it in post. Also, when you consider that they're live mixing the sound effects during the record. Well, that makes no sense. It's like they animate the whole thing.

That was really strange. They animate the whole thing and then they do a radio play on top of it. For the record, we don't do it like that. It feels very truthful, though, that thing of you watch something, and it's like, oh, this thing barely even hangs together as a completed thing. And you always know there's a complicated story behind it. Absolutely. Well, they do a lot in post also.

I mean, it's very obvious. Maybe not as much as the critic, but like, I don't know, a lot. I remember. I think Simpsons, they're pretty good with that. They reuse a lot of shots and add new dialogue. I remember I was watching that Froger sequence. Oh, yeah. And realized only now that I've been doing post-production that that whole thing is

cobbled together yeah out of in post yeah with ADR like I couldn't believe their expressions aren't matching what they're saying yeah but still it's one of the most convincing cases of that and Al Jean and Mike Reese's years they did that so much and they were in the critic too so they loved doing that after the fact yeah now that treehouse I think they I think Mike Reese calls it like the most they ever did that on any of them. Just the constant. You'd also see that in the clip shows because they only had two minutes of animation. So you've got to go back and forth with Troy McClure saying stuff.

Especially the second clip show where they're at the table, but the table changes between every shot. They're just all grown together. Yeah. But it's time to say goodbye to Poochie and goodbye to Roy. Tough break, Dad. I guess people just weren't ready for Poochie. Maybe in a few years. Good news, everybody.

I'm moving into my own apartment with two sexy ladies. Then I guess this is goodbye, Roy. Maybe we'll see you in a few years. Well, I guess I learned my lesson. The thing is, I lost creative control of the project. And I forgot to ask for any money. Well, live and learn.

Losing creative control of the project. That's dangerous. It wasn't his project. Yes, he never had creative control of the project Not getting paid It wasn't his project He never had creative control It's true he didn't I hear that and it feels like a heavy weight Like a dense blanket Weighing me down

Homer was not in charge He tried to gain creative control of the project But he never had it I think the writers in general Were very accepting of Homer with that slow clap because I would think most of the writers would just be mad. Like, you just want to write a new scene? I wrote this.

I mean, I can't think of very many examples of that kind of thing happening where the actor's like, I take issue with this, and I have a whole picture prepared for the other thing. I mean, when we worked with David Coburn for Captain Planet that was actually a really good collaboration actually yeah he did yeah that was awesome

yeah cause we had you know he was like he had genuine feedback he's like look I'm Captain Planet and we're like we were going to listen to you as Captain Planet

that's true yeah and he helped us rewrite like the final scenes of that but that's the only time I can think of where like there was like

a moral issue with the content did you stand up and give him a slow clap we sent him several very friendly emails yes exactly there was like a moral issue with the content. Did you stand up and give him a slow clap? We sent him several very friendly emails. Yes, exactly. His expertise, because he's from that other show,

I think if it were someone on the show that you know the most about because you made it, I guess that's sort of where it becomes really helpful. I think I had some of that too when we did the Uncle Grandpa crossover. A lot of the cast members were like, we should say this slightly differently. This is how Pizza Steve would actually say this. And I'd be like, oh my gosh, yes, please, thank you. Oh my gosh, I did. And I guess if that did happen,

if Courtney or Ashley was like, this really kind of messed up what's going on right now, I would certainly listen, because they've been doing it for dozens and dozens of episodes. So we get to the ever-loving end here. It's back to the basics. Classic itchy and scratchy. We should thank our lucky stars.

They're still putting on a program of this caliber after so many years. What else is on? Even for all that, the audience is still fickle. Yeah. You can't win. Even if it told them, like, well, yeah, I should. That is how I... I definitely got that message at audience is still fickle. You can't win. Even if it told them, like, yeah, I should.

That is how I definitely got that message at the end of the episode, even as a 14-year-old who wasn't a know-it-all about shows. I still was like, oh, this is a show telling me I should be happy that this show is still good. Did I listen, Simpsons? I did. It whooshed right over my head when I was younger. It reminds me of, like, I just saw a documentary about the Beatles talking about how help was how they really felt. And I was like, help is a cry for help?

Like, it suddenly hit me like a ton of bricks. Like, oh, of course it was. And watching this again felt like that, too. Like, oh, they're worried people are losing interest in The Simpsons. I never would have thought of that because I wasn't losing interest in the simpsons yeah a superliminal message in it yes but it's true though like at that time you know i mean again we were talking about alt.tv the simpsons where it's like people even in season two and three were like i'm done with the simpsons i'm moving on by that point they'd probably seen several like generations

and phases of fans come and go and as i said it's as I said, it hurts my feelings when I see a fan go. Yeah, and it's hard not to feel like, oh, no, everybody hates it now. And I'm sure they were feeling a little bit of that. Well, and for guys like Bill and Josh that came on the show thinking, this is the best show on TV, nothing's written like this. And if you feel that strongly about it, then to hear people, it would certainly hurt to hear people say your show's bad now,

especially when you took it over and now this is with people saying it's the worst episode ever. And considering what was on TV around it at that time, too. Right. The episode puts up a hard front, but I can tell it comes from a place of pain.

No, it really does. There's a lot of wish fulfillment speaking directly to the fans' moments, which are much more... I guess I didn't quite get that when I was younger. I didn't get it the whole time until the end bit when they turned off the TV. I was like, oh, they're talking about the show.

That was only when it hit me. Yeah, I mean, I think other shows had addressed fandom in general, but I think this is the first show to address its own fandom via allegory for an entire episode. I think this is the first show to address its own fandom via allegory for an entire episode. I think this is a big first for television. And though they promised that Poochie would never come back,

like you said, he has come back, but the next time he would appear would be in season 10's Treehouse of Horror 9 when Bart and Lisa go into the TV, they run over Poochie in that world. So that affidavit was, you know, somebody needs to sue

Krusty over that, because clearly I guess that wasn't in continuity. There's definitely a clause for that. Genius at work. Any final thoughts on this episode? It's an episode that becomes, like, I don't know, it grows with me. It's like

every time I watch it, I see it differently. I watched it when I first started working in the industry again, and I was like, whoa. And then I would show it to people and be like, see? Look how truthful this thing was. And then everyone would be like, whoa. And then most recently when I watched it, it was much more of a somber feeling of just kind of like, oh. So it kind of covers the whole gamut. It reflects you when you watch it.

Right. You can see the stress and exhaustion. I worry sometimes that if I start to write about, as someone who's been working on the show for seven years, I see myself starting to write about being tired, deeply tired, and trying to continue to do this job. Because that's the fight that i know that's my daily life and it has been for so long that i that's i'm starting to make stories about it and then i worry i'm just like is this to inside i'm gonna see this and i'm like oh at the end of the

day what matters it's always honest stories and the honesty of it could be felt even by me as a child i think the it came from such a raw and real place and watching it now i'm like oh it's And the honesty of it could be felt even by me as a child, I think. It came from such a raw and real place. And watching it now, I'm like, oh, it's so direct. They just drew themselves in the room. It's just them. Like, I have allegorical, my team, allegorical characters where it's like, this is a metaphor for what we're going through. This is just like literally them.

But that's what makes it so great and interesting. I think Poochie, to me, has just become such an icon. To be a Poochie is like a thing, or to make a Poochie. And we talk about it all the time, because I have this fondness for what Poochie is, because he represents a certain time and at that time that was a parody of the schlock that was being produced to satisfy the needs of that time but as a child of that time there's this nostalgia that's baked into poochie because he is just a representative of that time as crassly as possible and i just feel this tie to poochie that i like i'll carry to the grave i kind of yeah you kind of like poochie it's fun to watch it now and be like he's i mean his cartoon was terrible but him as a concept as a character yeah he probably yeah he sold brillo pads he probably you know he could have been on the front of something but yeah it's a super funny episode and yeah watching it again honestly it is true like i can i can feel like the pain and hurt feelings radiating off of the episode as i watch it it's like you see people who are trying really

hard at what they do but they're also maybe a little tired and they feel a little insulted by the people who are they feel like they're being taken for granted and it's and you can really feel that within the episode and it's not one of those things where you see it's like whoa learn to take criticism buddy it's more like i recognize where this is coming from and absolutely it's it's you know it's okay this as a fan only on the fan side of it, it informed me a lot. And when I return to it, it makes me feel differently about being a fan every time. I think it took me through my emotions on it. And also on the creative process and how it feels to create stuff.

And I think, too, Poochie, you know, one character I wasn't thinking of that is a Poochie, like maybe the first one was Scrappy-Doo. I think he's a real... I think before a Poochie, they called them a Scrappy. This type of additional character. No, it's true. I always think about that too because I was born at the right time. I was born in 1984. I was the kid who

Scrappy was targeting and I loved Scrappy. I remember my older brother was like oh this one has scrappy in it and i was like oh scrappy i don't like the ones that don't have scrappy and he's like scrappy's terrible and i'm like what he's funny he does all this stuff he says puppy power he's great and then i grew up and found out, oh, everybody hated him. But he worked on me. Your show is full of scrappies and pooches. It's true.

I mean, I have a main character that's a scrappy. So, yeah. He is scrappy. Yeah. Sorry. I had a last-even universe thought. You mentioned drawing the people into it. I still see it seems like Ian's character just in the background of Cal.

Once you're in the model pack. Yeah, but we don't have Ian's character in an animation writer's room listing the voiceover from characters that represent our... I don't know what happened. Not as one-to-one. After I left the show to work on OK KO, after I left Steven Universe,

people started putting me in the background way more. Oh, yeah. I remember, oh my gosh, at a pitch once, Lamar drew this crowd that was just like lumps with little dots for eyes, but then drew Ian. It was just a crowd of strangers and then you, and then put an arrow, and it said Ian. We were like, all right, well, this crowd has Ian in it.

That's the most important thing to know in this scene. It was great. We all loved it. So we will do our plugs later. Everyone in this room that has a TV show, please let us know what that show is and where we can find it. I am not going to say anything. Hey, so yeah, I'm Ian.

You can follow me at IanJQ on Twitter. I have a TV show. It's called OK KO Let's Be Heroes. You can find it on the Cartoon Network app. Just Google OK KO. The first season's on Hulu now, too, right? Yeah, first season's on Hulu. I'm excited about that.

You can watch that. And yeah, we also made a game called okay let's play heroes which is available on what what is what can you get it on uh playstation xbox and steam and then soon we uh you wait vita switch is coming soon and i'm toby and i work on the same show. Yeah. I'm Rebecca Sugar. You can find me. I'm Rebecca Sugar on Instagram. I do a show called Steven Universe. It's past seasons are on Hulu and you can find it when it's on,

on Cartoon Network. Please don't miss the next bunch of episodes, please. We worked really hard on them. Well, there's a movie coming soon, right? Yes. And there will be a movie. It's a movie for television. And it's amazing.

Oh, yeah, they know what's going on. I was so honored when Ian and Toby did our previous episode. I'm so happy to have you guys back. Steven Universe is my favorite show on TV. Oh, gosh. It felt like the show made for me and i just love every moment of it so i it was such an honor to have you on here rebecca thank you so much that's such an honor to hear so again a big thank you to rebecca sugar ian jones cordy and toby jones for being our guest on

that episode it was fantastic it was a three-hour recording session and we were all sweaty but we earned it we earned all of that sweat. So thanks again. Again, check out their shows, Steven Universe and OK KO, Let's Be Heroes. You don't need me to tell you that, though. They're so good. It's self-evident, people. Yeah, and if you still haven't started them yet, though, both of them are on Hulu, the

first season. So that's a great place to start on top of you know you can find it on the cartoon network app and the the newer episodes and in all the places you can buy shows like buy seasons like itunes amazon all that stuff and for the first time okay ko is on hulu it's been there for about a month so in case you were looking for it before it's now there 52 episodes and there's more to come i'm guessing hopefully oh yeah no that's just the first season they're already deep into season two on it, too. Okay, awesome.

So, yes, thanks again to our very special guests. As for us, we are supported by the Talking Simpsons Patreon. If you go to patreon.com slash talking simpsons, you can check it out and see how to sign up and support the show. At the $5 level, you can get every episode a week ahead of time and ad-free. And the same goes for our sister show, What a Cartoon. At that $5 level, there are so many bonus podcasts, dozens and dozens of podcasts you've ahead of time and ad free and the same goes for our sister show what a cartoon at that five dollar level there are so many bonus podcasts dozens and dozens of the podcasts you've never heard

exclusive series interviews so many special things we've done and they all live on the patreon and they won't go anywhere else so please check it out that five dollar level henry what are two of the most recent things that are on the patreon and we'll never leave the patreon that we've locked them up in the vault folks should definitely check out one of our newest interviews where we chatted with the Bill Morrison who is a longtime Simpsons artist. He did all the covers to your favorite early 90s Simpsons video games.

His covers were easily the best part of those games. And he was also one of the founders of Bongo Comics and was doing Simpsons comics for over a decade. And we have a ton of questions about that and also his lesser known but no less important stuff such as his work in defining the look of futurama we learn a ton of interesting stuff from bill in that interview and you should also check out one of our previous interviews with mark kirkland if you liked all this animation industry talk here,

Mark Kirkland has directed more episodes of The Simpsons than anyone and got his start at Hanna-Barbera in the late 70s. He has a ton of cool stories and you can learn all that on the exclusive interview on the Patreon as well. That's right. That's patreon.com slash TalkingSimpsons. Even a dollar a month would help our show

and get you access to our monthly community podcast. So yes, check it out. Patreon.com slash TalkingSimpsons. We'd really appreciate it. As for me, I have been one of your hosts, Bob Mackie. Find me on Twitter as Bob Servo. My other podcast is Retronauts. It's a classic gaming podcast.

Check it out at Retronauts.com or look for Retronauts in your podcast machine. We've been doing this almost forever, I think, since the beginning of time. So there's got to be something you enjoy that we've done. Check it out. Retron Knots. Henry. I'm H-E-N-E-R-E-Y-G on Twitter. If you follow me there, you'll learn whenever a new episode goes up for Talking Simpsons

or our sister animation show, What a Cartoon. We did a Steven Universe episode of that, by the way. You should check it out in the archives. But just follow me at H-E-N-e-r-e-y-g on twitter for all those updates thank you for joining us folks we'll see you next week for homer's phobia we'll see you then I have to go now. My planet needs me.