Talking Simpsons - Talking Simpsons - The Principal and the Pauper LIVE With Allie Goertz and Julia Prescott

Episode Date: January 30, 2019

So it's come to this... We've finally reached one of the most infamous episodes of The Simpsons, and we're giving it the deluxe podcast treatment! Allie Goertz and Julia Prescott of the great podcast Everything's Coming Up Simpsons join us live at the Gateway Theatre for our 2019 San Francisco Sketchfest show to discuss the Seymour Skinner story that set alt.tv.simpsons (and perhaps the world) on fire back in 1997. Will The Principal and the Pauper go down as a secretly great episode, or will we taunt and boo writer Ken Keeler until our throats are sore? Put down Armin's copy of Swank, because this is one episode of Talking Simpsons you can't miss! [Note: The audio levels are a little off for the first eight minutes, but should sound perfectly fine after that.] Support this podcast and get hundreds of bonus episodes by visiting Patreon.com/TalkingSimpsons and becoming a patron!

I heartily endorse this event or product. Hoi hoi everybody! Hello! Welcome to the Talking Simpsons live show! Where the rods up our butts have rods up their butts. And I am one of your hosts, the hair-combing dream-haver Bob Mackey, who's here with me today. Henry Gilbert, I just finished off some America balls backstage. Ooh, that sounds good. And today's episode for our live show is the principal and the pauper. They're boo in there

Up yours, children Excellent But unfortunately, our reign of terror is over Because the hosts of the competing Simpsons podcast are here Allie Gertz and Julia Prescott If everything's coming up Simpsons, please come out From some side of the stage Two of us will be unmasked and killed on stage tonight from some side of the stage.

Two of us will be unmasked and killed on stage tonight. There can only be one. This is like Podcast Highlander. You're going to watch two murders. Hi, guys. Thank you so much. So usually we do a day on Simpsons history, and this episode aired on September 28, 1997.

Henry, what happened on this mythical day in real-world history? Oh, my God! Oh, boy, Bobby! The underrated film Ice Storm is seen in theaters by me, my mom, and few other people. The book Cold Mountain sits atop the New York Times bestsellers list, and America enjoys the first of five glorious weeks

of the Tony Danza show. Just five weeks? Just, yeah. They made 13 episodes, only aired five. They're lost to time. People don't want to hear about a storm right now, Henry. I prefer, I don't know, would you prefer a rainstorm to an ice storm?

Which would you want? I'd prefer Tony Danza. If it was raining men and all the men were Tony Danza. Was America ready for an Italian on TV? Not yet. Okay, I didn't think so. Not unless he's counterbalanced by a white woman. And he was the boss.

Well, yeah, so this week's episode is the controversial Principal and the Pauper. A very beloved and famous episode, I think. Yes, we all love it. It's the least memorable name of all time. That's true, that's true. It's such a boring title. It's the Armin Tanzarian episode.

That's right. No one knows it. And I guess we should poll people in the audience. We want to find out who in the audience does not like this episode. By a round of applause. I thought you were going to say, who does not like this episode. By a round of applause I thought you were going to say who does not like The Simpsons. There's a Family Guy show across

the street that has your name on it. But by a round of applause does anyone not like this episode? It's pretty hated. And yet you're here tonight. Ellie one of them was your boyfriend. And that's why I think he's cool. Well I appreciate the openness to admit that you didn't like it. I mean, all four of us up here like it, I think.

I don't see this as ruining the show or a jump the shark kind of moment. You know, I think for a lot of us here, like, if you were a little kid when this came out, it was just like, yeah, I love The Simpsons. I'm just so happy to be watching cartoons instead of doing homework so for me it was like it took until we talked about it on our podcast that our guests when we discussed it we talked about this episode first yeah we should start everything swimming up simpsons did it but when we talked about it i honestly felt like such an imposter in terms of being a fan

because I was kind of surprised to learn how controversial this episode was. I knew that the Frank Grimes one was controversial. I knew that the Australia episode was controversial. But I had... It kind of took me a second to realize, like, oh, people hate it, and they have good reason to. They totally... Even Harry

Shearer said, like, this is kind of a diss They totally, even Harry Shearer said, like, this is kind of a diss to the fans. Right, right. Harry Shearer being grumpy about the Simpsons episode. This is news to me. Well, I don't know if you guys have heard this, but once upon a time, people on the internet were angry about media and the people who made it. It was a rare period in history that's never happened again,

but if you were not online in 1997, this episode was hated on the Simpsons news group All TV Simpsons. And for this live show, I have pulled two reviews that were the most negative from that news group. So posted in September of 97, I have eliminated the names because these people are probably

in jail now. Or dead. From prison murder. First review was Ken Keeler. I hate murder. First review was Ken Keeler, I hate you. By the way, Ken Keeler is the writer of this episode. Ken Keeler, I hate you. This episode is certainly a waste of tape.

That was a popular saying in the 90s. A waste of tape. Abandoning all continuity and destroying a great supporting character in exchange for a few cheap laughs? I'm sorry. That might have worked on the critic, but if you haven't noticed, this ain't the critic, pal. The only solace

is that this appears to be Keillor's final episode. Well, Mr. Keillor, with this episode, you have earned yourself the most welcome exit since Jennifer Crittenden. F. First they let a woman write for the Simpsons, and now this Keillor guy? I can't believe Harry Shearer said that.

Yeah, it was his old account, but yes. I'm sorry. Am I ruining both of our podcasts by saying that these people don't owe their fans anything? If anything, they owe them. No, you weren't turning something into that. We're receiving art. Okay. We should point out that Ken Keeler

wrote some controversial episodes of the show he was the writer for Stars Burned which was the critic crossover and he also wrote Two Bad Neighbors

which was the George H.W. Bush episode which I only found out later was hated I liked it a lot at the time I don't know why it was hated

Harry Shearer hates that one too Harry Shearer sucks is that the only Henry we're trying to get him as a guest are those the only notes you have on whether or not Harry Shearer hates that one too. Harry Shearer sucks. Is that the only Henry? We're trying to get him as a guest. Are those the only notes you have on whether or not Harry Shearer hates it?

I have a separate wiki called Harry Shearer Hates and it's just all that. It's a long, long wiki. I do have one more review from this era. There's a lot of them, but this is my second final one. So again, the name has been omitted. You can visit their grave later.

But someone needs to tie Ken Keeler to a chair and have him trained out of town. This episode is extremely unnecessary and to me, proves the writers are running fresh out of ideas. I'm sick of these revelations with characters. I mean, it was bad enough

that we were expected to believe Ned is a walking emotional time bomb and now this? What's cooked up for season 10? Bart was switched at birth with Rex, in parentheses, the actor in Lisa's class. Smithers is really a woman? F. And negative reviews for this episode is what I'm saying.

Wow. I like how that guy started his review with a sincere pitch for his Simpsons spec script where one of the people in Springfield gets tied to a train and carted off. Thank you. I'll take whatever applause I can get. Oh! Thank you.

I do think they're right. Like, I completely agree with anyone who hates this episode and it's not just because I'm wishy-washy, but it's like it's like, I truly get it. It's an F you to the fans because it's saying like this whole you know season or series as you've known it has been a lie and what a prank but it's funny so who cares like that I think ultimately is the rule if it's if it makes

you laugh who cares I'm gonna be devil's advocate maybe for the whole podcast tonight and say that this is well they they wrap it up at the end but this is a bottle episode that is almost non-canon oh yeah and so i feel like it it i don't know it to me as this like individual like preserved like you can pluck it from the simpsons run it's still great i don't feel betrayed by it. Speaking of betrayal, as we know from watching the episode, talking about this at all is punishable by death. And so we really shouldn't be having this. Everyone in this room will be shipped off to Guantanamo Bay after this episode.

This live recording. So we're really risking our lives here to provide a nice show for the fine people of San Francisco. So we'll see how it goes. Yeah! Thank you. We're true heroes on stage tonight.

I did want to point out, I think for Henry and I, at least this is a very personal episode because we're going through the series in order. We've been doing it for four years. And I think people believe after the show is over, Henry and I will turn to sand

and the Patreon will shut down and their bank accounts will be full again. I think sincerely, and we'll just both walk into the ocean after this live recording. It's just understood that like, yeah,

this is the episode that ruins the series, right? You guys can't go after this, which is wrong and a lie. We will never stop, at least for the next 15 years

until we get to the current season. Boy, that's going to be tough. Wow. No, I think I was not offended by this episode then.

I only, I liked it fine. It wasn't even my favorite though. But when, it was only when I really started engaging with the Simpsons fandom. I was a mega Simpsons fan, but I didn't engage with the internet fandom. It was just me and my brother quoting to each other all the time.

So then in the early 2000s, when I finally go online and see that this is marked as like this is where it all started to go wrong kind of thing it's just it's an it's an arbitrary point i think for a lot of fans i think this episode is so of a piece of like five other ones that bill and joss did that it's no more destructive than those and it's like i i think really if this had come and if this wasn't at the start of a season, people wouldn't have been that mad about it either.

It really can't be that bad if it completely inspired Don Draper's backstory because it's truly exactly 100% not for nothing. It really owes them a check. Rip off artists. We've had those reviews, but what about the reviews of a popular

Instagram fast food reviewer? Oh, perhaps the famous Bill Oakley? Yes, yeah. Guys, it's time for a special update on this episode from... This is a world exclusive. It is. One of the showrunners of this episode, Bill Oakley.

Hey, it's Bill Oakley, and I'm here at McDonald's to get a McRib and talk to you about the principal and the pauper. He's such a dork. Hello, McDonald's, I can come in here any minute. Uh, yes, I'd like a McRib, please. Oh, hold on just a second. I'm sorry, we don't serve the McRib anymore. They don't serve the McRib anymore. They don't serve the McRib anymore.

Hello, darkness, my old friend. I've come to talk with you again. Because a vision softly creeping left its seeds while I was sleeping. So this episode was inspired by the film The Return of Martin Gere, which was a award-winning film from 1983 about a man, a Frenchman, who returns home from war and the family isn't really sure whether it's him. Similar story to this episode.

In fact, it was based on something that had really happened in 16th century France. This was remade as a movie called Summersby in 1993, starring Richard Gere. And it's something that happened over time, historically, a couple of times. And in fact, Ken brought us, Ken Keeler, who wrote this, brought us a newspaper clipping. We were talking about this episode of an incident in Vietnam where this had happened. I believe it was a South Vietnamese soldier who had returned home as an imposter, taking over someone else's life. So I would say it's a story that had a lot of classical elements, kind of a Shakespearean feel that we felt worked perfectly with Principal Skinner because of his Vietnam background. And I know that type of story is not to everyone's liking. It's definitely not what you'd normally

expect. And I know when you expect that you're gonna get a McRib and you wind up with a fillet of fish, no matter how decent the fillet of fish is, you're still gonna be kind of unhappy. How's that for an analogy that is truly ham-handed? Mmm, ham-handed. man did. What a door. We got the official word from Bill Oakley who ran... Oh, sorry. I was going to say, thank you, Bill.

Thank you so much, Bill. But yeah, we got the official word from Bill about this episode. The boring fact is this is production season eight, not season nine. This is not starting the downfall of the Simpsons. But I have to say, Bill Oakley, sleep of the switch once again. If Ken Keeler had seen that video, he would throw one of his many Emmys across

the room in rage, because this is not based on The Return of Martin Garrett, the famous French film you all have seen, or Summersbee, and I'm sure you all have the t-shirts from 1993, but this is actually based on a real historical case from Victorian England called the Titchborn case. Yeah, fuck you, Bill. Jeez.

I just want to say, I don't want to gloss over this. Did it alarm anybody else that it took him like two whole minutes to chew? I'm just concerned for his health. Anyway, let's move on. But yes, the Titchborn case, look it up. It was a Victorian England scandal that rocked the many newspapers of Victorian England where a man claimed to be a man who he apparently wasn't, who died supposedly in a shipwreck off of Australia.

Anyways, you know that if you went to Harvard and Ken Keillor went to Harvard, so that's why that is the premise of the episode, not some movie that anybody could see. Ken Keillor is very specific like that. He wants people to know that it came from a much deeper source than just a Richard Gere film. I just know because I watched the commentary, he seems

sincerely angry that people thought this was a Summersby episode. He gets kind of mad at Bill and Josh a couple times on that commentary, I feel like. Well, he also calls this the best episode of TV he's ever written, which he wrote Time Keeps on Slipping for Futurama, which, even though I like this episode of The Simpsons, that episode of Futurama is better, I believe. I mean, the Harlem Globetrotters from space coming to play a game of basketball. That's a good episode. Yeah. Which is what they thought they were doing in their basketball careers this entire

time. Well, and so this, I think, too, this episode is so of a piece with, like, Poochie, with Grimes, with even the Lester and Eliza. Or, like, Deep Space Homer, too. That's something that people hate

because it was out there. It's clearly a classic. But Bill and Josh, their whole time, they were just fighting against sitcom tropes. They were kind of pushing the edges of the universe all the time. When they introduced Poochie slash Roy

in that episode, you're also just supposed to accept, well, yeah, Roy lived with the Simpsons for one week, and now he's gone. Just the same as you're supposed to just shrug and be like, well, Armin Tamzarian doesn't exist anymore. We don't talk about him. This is one of the many canon-breaking episodes from

their era, right? So Sideshow Bob is no longer evil anymore, and Roger Myers did not invent It's You and Scratchy, and what other ones? The Milhouses get divorced. The Milhouses get divorced, and Jebediah Springfield is fraud. They really like breaking the show, and it's innocent, it's slightly naive to think that

there was a time in which they believed the show would end at some point. They would think, you know, ten seasons, how could it go longer than ten seasons? But now we're in season 30. Yeah, well, I mean, that's what, if you talk to or hear any commentary from Bill and Josh, especially Josh is, Josh Weinstein is big on talking about how this particular era of The Simpsons, the reason why they pushed, you know, the envelope so much with Armin Tanzarian and with Frank Grimes is because they were so certain.

And if you hear about, like, any of The Simpsons writers around this era, even season two, season three, season four, everybody thought that the show was going to be canceled next year, because that's just how normal TV shows work. But they were so fucking certain during this era, which I think informs their choice with that. But I think what makes this so interesting as a peace study is that the regenerative property

of TV episodes usually is an episode like Armand Tanzarian like regular sitcoms will have you know like this one-off episode that you know may like bend the canon of the show but it doesn't make a whole fan base like lose their minds but I think because you know Springfield feels so intimate to us and we feel like we really know these characters and that the Simpsons are our family and because you know Springfield feels so intimate to us and we feel like we really know these characters and that the Simpsons are our family and that you know the citizens of Springfield are our friends to their credit is sort of like

you know making the own wall that they have to jump over making their own problem you know which is why this episode doesn't work as well as you know say another episode that you know feels like it's more within the canon of the show or doesn't disrupt anything. Well, I think, too, fans felt more hurt by this.

The alt-tv.simpsons people maybe felt more upset because Bill and Josh, they were the guys who really cared about the continuity. Like, the five and six, which are amazing seasons, arguably the best of the whole series, David Merkin wasn't a geek for the continuity of The Simpsons. Bill and Josh really were, and that's what I love about them.

So then when they make an episode that seems to just shrug and be like, eh, what's that matter? Who cares? It all just resets. Homer literally says in this episode, do any of you care? Come on.

And they love Principal Skinner, Bill Oakley and Josh Weinstein, who ran this season. And they would not let him be mistreated. In fact, they create the version of Skinner that you know and love. Like before Sweet Seymour Skinner's Badass Song, which they wrote,

he was just sort of an effectless authoritarian. But they brought in all the specific weirdness and boringness that you love about Skinner. And that really comes out in this episode, too. Yeah, they created the Skinner

who will happily spend 10 minutes choosing laundry detergent, which is the best character. Or buying a used tie rack for only the one tie he has and then buying the motor again. When you really care about someone, you shout it from the mountaintops. So on behalf of Desjardins Insurance, I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients that we really care about you. Home and auto insurance personalized to your needs. Weird, I don't remember saying that part.

Visit Desjardins.com slash care and get insurance that's really big on care. Did I mention that we care? But there's sort of a high-level meta layer of this episode that was not really made clear in the execution in that this episode is about people reacting poorly to a change in a TV show. And in this episode, the Springfielders who are upset with Skinner being an imposter, that's supposed to be you. So, like, Ken Keeler wrote

this predicting the outcome, and there's, like, a built-in criticism of the outcome in this episode. But, according to him, there were certain scenes cut out and certain lines were changed that don't make that intent clear. That this is an episode about TV. I think it's just, like, 5% less

clear than it would have been in Poochie. Like, in Poochie, it's so obvious it's about the show. They draw themselves into the show. When Lisa changes the channel, the TV goes off. It's broadcast very heavily that this is about The Simpsons. But in this one, there's just enough of a remove that you just think it's like, is this just about Skinner? And I think, too, that this really reminds me of You Only Move Twice also

because in both those cases, which we did with you guys, but in You Only Move Twice, they really thought they were tricking people into thinking like, well, they're not in Springfield anymore. We're starting the season by moving them away. And I think their intention might have been like, could we convince people that we really did replace Skinner on the show and every episode onward is going to star Martin

Sheen playing Seymour Skinner from now on. But I don't think it really fooled anybody that either, you know, it's going to go back to normal because it's a sitcom whether whether Judge Snyder shows up or not, you know everything resets. I do like the idea of there being deleted scenes where it is animated Ken Keeler yelling at the fans. It's like, it's you, do you get it? It's about the TV show. Do you get it?

Do you get it? Turning to camera. He's sort of this Homer in the scene we'll see later where Homer's saying, why do you care? Does anybody care? I think that is really him in that role, saying, why do you care that we did this? And asking fans, why do you care? Does anybody care? I think that is really him in that role, saying, why do you care that we did this? And asking fans, why do you care,

is kind of, that's going to incense some fans, I think. Because they're like, well, then why am I watching your show if I'm not supposed to care? I asked the wrong question. Do you think that after, I mean, again, this is what, the second episode of season eight? Season nine, yeah. Oh, season nine, forgive me.

Forgive me. Do you think that they, at this point, haven't earned enough seasons of The Simpsons? I mean, we now know that it's 30 plus seasons, but at the time, nine seasons is a lot of seasons for a show. Have they not earned one for fun? As I'm gonna call it from now on.

Like a scratch card. Yeah. You do nine good episodes and you get one bad fun. As I'm going to call it from now on. Like a scratch card. Yeah. You do nine good episodes and you get one bad episode. Not to say that this is bad, but you know, just one for me. Give Bob one.

They did a few for, like, Simpsons Spinoff Showcase is definitely a one for them. Yeah, yeah. Which I think, yeah, that's why I think too,

if this was not at the start of the season, I think it wouldn't have had as this breaks, this does no more to break the universe in Simpsons spinoff showcase or Frank Grimes electrocuting himself to death in front of everyone and then Homer snoring at his funeral. Like that is a meaner message than this one, I'd say.

Or same with like, actually the Simpsons spinoff showcase ends with them basically shitting on the idea of season nine of like what's coming up for season nine wedding after wedding after wedding Naz Motyar it's all going downhill in season nine but they've always from like day one made fun of themselves you know they've made fun of themselves for being on Fox

and made fun of themselves for being a shitty sitcom and I'm sure a lot of that is like Harvard guys looking down on TV writing even though they do it but they hate themselves so it's just a never ending cycle. But you're right. I mean, this is the 180th episode, I think, at this point. So they have earned the chance to screw around just once or twice by now. And yeah, as far as this being called the Jump the Shark episode, I mean, there's also there's so many moments after this that far.

I mean, like them hanging out with Kid Rock are insane. That was more of a jump-the-shark moment for me. It was an innocent time in which this could be considered the worst episode. I think it was that for maybe three years before the Maude Flanders episode. Oh, don't. It lived in that infamy for three years. And like, let's forget about this kind of episode. It would be great, though, if I had not seen it,

but them hanging out with Kid Rock was like four episodes long. Like I respect that bold choice. Just half a season Kid Rock is a guest star on The Simpsons. He could have been the new Roy.

He could have been the new, he was Roy. That's what Roy graduated to. I mean also like there's, I would say, this does break continuity, if you want to be a real continuity nerd like, I mean, maybe me.

You could say, like, well, this invalidates Skinner being Armin Tamzerian, saying before he was a POW, or saying, or re-serving in the Army again under Seymour Skinner, which you feel like the Army would have said, you can't be here, that guy's dead, you're not him. So it doesn't work with that, but you are supposed to be just told, who cares? That's the message at the end.

I was more annoyed when they said Ned Flanders was 60, because that really did not fit with this. Yeah, that ain't right. Well, I think, too, another thing that made people turn on this one or feel okay to call this a jump the shark moment is that producers on the show have been open about not liking this episode. Like, Matt Grading in multiple interviews has said this is a low point for the show, an episode he regrets.

Harry Shearer, like we said, is a low point for the show an episode he regrets Harry Shearer like he said not a fan also in the Mike Scully produced seasons they had they called this one of the most nonsensical plots in behind the laughter this was marked as a low point this moment and Al Jean in season 14 on the episode I do bot they reference it in a negative way of Lisa saying that Snowball, after Snowball 2 has died a bunch of times, we're just gonna call the new Snowball 2, Snowball 2, and if you're mad about that, remember Armin Tamzarian.

Yeah, they kind of use it as a punching bag. Yeah, no, this is seen, I mean, yeah, it's just an overall rejection of like Bill and Josh's legacy a little bit that I'm not a fan of. I don't like that. I do like the idea of Al Jean being like, the problem with Apu, what about the problem with Armin? Is that why everyone is mad at him on Twitter?

Yeah. That makes sense. Let's talk about Armin some more. Let's move away from that Apu stuff. Fun tonight, right? Oh, yes. last thing I'd say before we get into the clips here is I think I do yeah I just wish Keillor Keillor is a little defensive on the commentary I just wish he had been just he could have kept in those lines that made it more clear this was a commentary on tv like there's just yeah it's

missing just that little bit that would have done it. I think it's supposed to feel like more like a live action sitcom when a character gets written off of it and they're just leaving for no reason. It's just because their contract's up after seven seasons or whatever. And yeah, it makes it a... I like that commentary.

It just should have been a little more clear, I think. Yeah, that's a really good point because it's been a little more clear, I think. Yeah, that's a really good point, because it's such a bad trope. I think Tobey Maguire went to Africa at the end of that 70s show, right? He went to a different country. Oh, you mean Topher Grace? Topher Grace.

I was like, whoa, wait a minute. Well, Tobey Maguire might be a Spider-Man. They were both in a Spider-Man. And then, I'm trying to think of other, oh, like Blue's Clues. It was just, like, Joe or Steve, like, went to college. And it was just, like, who knows what was happening. He was a man?

Yeah. And I think on Family Matters, kids just disappeared. There was, like, one less child suddenly. They went upstairs and were never seen again. That is really funny, though, because I think if people thought of it in that way, it suddenly becomes a very funny, agreeable episode. They're just making fun of, yeah. I agree with you. And they've established

themselves as being making fun of classic sitcom tropes and especially like 70s TV. I mean, at least it's not as egregious as like recasting a character and then like, you know, pretending like it never happened, like Bewitched style, you know? Or if you've watched the latest season of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. Oh, sure.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, sure, yeah. But I mean, you're allowed to hate this episode. I personally frown upon it, upon you hating it, of course, but I think so much has happened in the past 22 years that I think we can look at it now isolated as a funny, good experiment, I think. Yeah! And if you didn't like it now isolated as a funny, good experiment, I think. Yeah. And if you didn't like it,

the show didn't like it either, and they immediately retracted everything they did in this episode, so you win anyways. And Marge made out with Lady Gaga. There have been worse, crazier things that happened on The Simpsons. I'm always going to be on the side of,

it's hard to write. Yeah. Not a full excuse, but it's hard, but I still think that, I mean, we get Armin's copy of Swank in this episode. How could you possibly be upset? Thank you. There are multiple meme-worthy jokes in this one

that I think get overlooked by the Simpsons shitposting community because it's in principle on the popper. Well, actually, in this first clip here, we're going to see one of my favorite lines that I wish became the next Cromulent. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. I have it going on. Oh, let the good times roll. Good Lord! The rod up that man's butt must have a rod up its butt. Oh, Superintendent Chalmers, can I offer you a cup of coffee-flavored beverine? Yes, I take it gray with creamium. But first, before Skinner shows up,

I have a secret announcement. In honor of Seymour's 20th year as principal, we've decided to hold a surprise tribute Friday night. It's my 20th year, too. The teacher's lounge is for teachers, Willie. So Bevereen and Creamium, it's in the same league as Malk and Brown and Water. I fucking love when they take shots at public schools. It's funny because they're underfunded.

But Bevereen, that's such a funny name. It's like Ovaltine, but for coffee. Well, what I really love is that you get it in such a confident line read from Superintendent Chalmers, too. Like, yeah, I'll take it away. It's just something that you get the sense that he's asked this all the time. And I love like a specific, a hyper specific of a word that they invented

said like normal language. It's just, mmm, it's a spicy meatball. But you're right, Bevereen should have been Cromulant or Embiggen. Exactly. Yeah, it's overlooked. I also love Chalmers sneaking around is great because he knows by the rules of the universe that we're Skinner to see him.

Then he has to go Skinner. So he must be hidden until he wants to be seen by Skinner. I think we were talking about this before the show and that this is the most Chalmers per minute. I think so. In any episode. Yeah, he's in every act. He's always hovering around the new Skinner. It's just so much Chalmers is happening.

I'm a fan. This is the beginning of shitting on Willie, that everyone hates Willie. I feel so bad for him. And Skinner, let this be known to you, Skinner always walks around with a pocket watch, a tuning fork, and a ruler. It's just always with him, at least at school.

And yeah, so we get to the kids prepping. We see that Ralph and Lisa get assigned to give a presentation on Skinner, which if they want to keep it a secret, I would not tell Ralph. That is one character I would not tell about a secret surprise. They do tell every child in the school,

and somehow it doesn't get out. I mean, Skinner's a very unobservant man. I guess his world is very small, too. And that's when we get to see, like, Ralph, there's some good stupid Ralph stuff in there. Him not knowing which one one is, that's probably my favorite. And you also

get, you see Bart prepping for it, too, with him just putting dog food together. Now, a few episodes earlier in the Canine Mutiny, Bart, Homer tries to make Bart eat dog food, and yet the tables have turned now. And he wasn't even planning on food, and yet the tables have turned now. And he wasn't even planning on that either.

No. Well, now I read it when Homer comes in and says, like, ooh, a fresh batch of America balls. I feel like Bart has served Homer America balls many times. Oh, you're right. It's a consistent prank that he's never learned from. He just likes, I mean, it's not a prank because he enjoys eating dog food, ultimately. Yeah, and Marge asks, like, why are you making

these out of dog food? And he just says, my theory is he just likes dog food. He's got to test it. And I have to blame Homer for not, there's like five open cans of dog food in front of his America Balls. Yeah, it's not hidden at all. Maybe he's like Agnes,

and he knows it's dog food, just the same that Agnes does. He wants an excuse to eat dog food. Such a glorious low-stakes he knows it's dog food, just the same that Agnes knows it's not really a dog food. Such a glorious low-stakes prank because it's still food. It's edible. To dogs it's just food. Protein. But yes, after we get the setup of the kids working on it, we get to see Skinner's wonderful Friday night home life.

Seymour! Tell me what time it is! Now! Seven o'clock Friday night, Mother. Time for our weekly silhouette. No! Cutting out your ugly nose gives me a hand cramp. Oh, but you love silhouette night.

And then we go through your bird book and make up silly captions. Mother, why are you all dressed up? I'm sick of this house, and I'm sick of you. Tonight, we're going for a drive. What's so special about tonight? Nothing. Now put on your special suit and get in the car. Yes, mother. Why are we stopping at my school, mother? What does it say on that sign? I don't like your tone. Ta-da!

Happy anniversary, son. Oh, Mother. You are still the master of deception. I surely am, Mom. It's funny, in this ruse designed to ultimately honor Skinner, she gets to be much more abusive. It gives her the license to be even more abusive. I fucking love this bitch.

I mean, she's like dialed up to 11 in this. It must have been just so fun to act it and write it for her. I love that as the show progressed, she became like such a mean character. And I think you really see it in like the twisted world of Marge Simpson. Like all of the women in Simpson. My name is Agnes. It means lamb. Lamb of God. Yeah, exactly.

I think it's such a good choice and it fits so well with the Skinner that we know now. But it's sweet that she's being abusive to aid her son's surprise. I feel like the surprise is like an accessory to the illness, I feel. She was introduced as a sweet old lady

who gets her ass exploded by a cherry bomb in Barth's Genius. Maybe that's what turned her. I think we had that Joker-style origin story. Yeah, she calls him Spanky, which she never called him Spanky again after that first appearance. In Crepes of Wrath, I believe.

You're nerds. You've done a podcast. We've got to prove it. That's what they pay money for this. Silhouette Night is so funny, which you guys can see the wonderful Nina Matsumoto art there incorporates the silhouette into it. You can buy them. Yes, we do have the poster out front

if you guys would like one for yourselves. And yes, the Silhouette Night, I wonder if is every wall in their house plastered with it? Because if they make 52 a year... Maybe they sell them. Maybe it's a nice little side hustle. Oh, you know, she could sell it in the church rec center

where she sells other things. That's right. Or at least, like, force them on people. If I found out that, like, the elementary school principal made silhouettes with his mom every Friday night at 7, I would probably buy them. That's very charming or funny, depending on what type of principal it is. And then cut to your

episode of Marie Kondo, and you open up a closet. Thank you, goodbye. Thank you, goodbye. Wake them up. A hundred times. And then Agnes is proud of being the master of deception too. That's the title she wears with honor.

And they all just started... Also, you know what? She tells him to wear a special suit, and he just wears his regular outfit. That's his only suit. But doesn't that say everything to him that is special? I think it's very sweet. Also, that sign gag is fantastic,

but it also pays off plot-wise in a couple minutes. So I really like that about it too so we get to see Lisa and Ralph presenting and giving you like the minor facts you need to know about Skinner like if you're a new viewer you need to know he's a Vietnam vet so this is them

quickly expressing it and putting a hard date of 1966 on it which would make Skinner in his 70s now, I think. Yeah. Or close to 80, I believe. I just like Ralph's perspective on this principal. He's an old man who lives at the school.

And I love how he relishes the fact that he was dirty. And I feel like in the Scully years, they did a lot more of the kids host award show kind of thing. Some Rugrats style humor we call it. Now you're making it sound bad. And then they sing I'm sorry, is Rugrats polarizing?

Do you guys not like Rugrats? I'm fine with Rugrats. Henry apparently thinks it's some sort of slur. Well, it's a slur. Mark Motherspot did a theme song. It's kind of cool. It's a negative on The Simpsons. It's the only show cartoon that had Jewish characters.

I was going to say. They have a great Hanukkah episode. Krusty the Clown predates the Hanukkah special a bit. Henry, why are you a hate monger? No, please. I'm sorry. Hey, why don't we play a clip instead? Tribute to Seymour Skinner.

Pull over, driver. Now, I know the school normally serves cake only on Thursdays, and I'm also well aware that today is Friday. Nevertheless, I have a surprise for you. I hope you all brought forks and plates. Mm-hmm. I love that joke. Oh, what the... An enjoyment buzzer.

Oh, thank you. What a wonderful night to share with the people and the town that I love. I have never been happier or prouder to be Seymour Skinner. You're not Seymour Skinner. Skinner. Skinner? I'm Skinner. Seymour?

I. Mother. She's my mother. Will someone remove that crazy man, please? No, no, he's... he's not crazy. It's true. I'm... I'm... an imposter. That man is the real Seymour Skinner.

Keep looking shocked and move slowly towards the cake. He's used well in this episode. Delight dusting of Homer. Well, yeah, I mean, one of the things that Bill and Josh have talked about is that when they do have episodes about other characters, they always

have to shoehorn the Simpsons family into it. And it's always really funny to see how are they going to make it work, and of course it's food. Of course, America balls and cake are the way that you get Homer back in. Yeah, the Simpsons are kind of... This you get Homer back in yeah the Simpsons are kind of this is the most hands-off the Simpsons are

I think in any of the Bill and Josh ones with the it's focused on a separate character until the end when the Simpsons like they are the person who drives him back to town and forces Skinner back yeah but I think it's better than a Milhouse divided in which that episode was about Milhouse's parents until

the third act when it's like no it's about the Simpsons now care about these characters instead I think it's better than A Millhouse Divided in which that episode was about Millhouse's parents until the third act when it's like, no, it's about the Simpsons now. Care about these characters instead. I think they are showing a little more self-control in that. People will watch this entire episode about Skinner. They've done it before. And the enjoyment buzzer. No one called that. It's so great.

Bart mugging to the audience. And that Chalmers has to he needs to let people know that this isn't Thursday, but we still have cake. He knows it would be chaos otherwise. And also the arrival of Skinner,

played by Martin Sheen, who I should have had the anti-death jingle here. He's still hanging in there? He's fine. You've been known for Mass Effect 2, of course, his famous role. He sat down a lot in that game. In this episode though, I

love his design because it looks just enough like Armin Tamzarian that if he had been gone for six years and Armin came back, you'd be like you look kind of like him. Sure, I don't have photographs. It's the 60s.

Sure, yeah. And then it also really reminds me of Larry Burns. He's a stranger who arrives to town who this basically looks like Martin Sheen if you put prosthesis on his face to look more like Skinner, just like Larry Burns is basically Rodney Dangerfield with Mr. Burns' nose.

So this is the pre-West Wing era for Martin Sheen. So he's known more for Spawn than he is for playing the president. It really happens. Oh, yes, he was Tony Twist. Yes, you don't wait. You don't care. I failed. No, I'm embarrassed I failed on my comic book trivia.

It's Spawn knowledge. It's spa knowledge. Be proud of yourself. I would have loved a Grace and Frankie era Martin Sheen making an appearance on The Simpsons. They can bring him back. What if they did an episode where Sergeant Seymour Skinner came back to town and they had to kill him or something? No, that's a bad pitch. I take it.

Well, they have to fill a two-season episode order, so you better run, not walk. And I think the animation gets overlooked a lot in this one, too, because it's such a controversial episode. But Stephen Deetmore and his team did a really great job of, like, every crowd is filled with specific-to-school-or-parent characters. Yeah, the staging is really cool, really cool too. When he does the confession his face is facing away from the camera.

You see everyone's shocked faces. You don't see his shame and you just get to take in the shocked faces and it makes the arrival on Homer all the funnier because you just see this real shock at it. The next scene here is a bit of a long clip but we have to know every detail.

Don't get bored like Bart does in this, too. You need every detail of his arrival in Vietnam. Now let's clear this up. Who exactly are you? Sergeant Seymour Skinner, U.S. Army. It's true. I was in his platoon. But they said you were killed on that scouting mission.

No, just captured. It's kind of a funny story, really. After five years in a secret POW camp, I was sold to China for slave labor. And since 77, I've been making sneakers at gunpoint in a sweatshop in Wuhan. That's not a funny story. Well, I guess you had to be there.

Anyhow, the UN shut the factory down last week, and the embassy shipped me home. And here I am. So what's your story, Seymour, if that is your real name? Well, obviously it isn't. My real name is Armin Tamzerian. There's a secret history to Armin Tamzerian, right?

Yes, yeah. It was a clean... So Ken Keeler got in a car There's a secret history to Armin Tamzerian, right? Yes. Yeah. So Ken Keillor got in a car accident on his first day living in L.A. And his claims adjuster's name was Armin Tamzerian. And that name stuck with him forever. And they then, when it came to this episode, they're like, oh, that would be a funny name. And later he would end up being like an attorney who worked with bill and josh so they got to know him but when the episode aired he didn't know armin tamzerian didn't know he was in it and i believe in television production that's kind of a sticky situation when you have a very specific character named after a person uh in real life who

could sue especially a guy who is a lawyer as well. But apparently he was very agreeable about it, just like, oh, that's weird. And on the commentary, they're even like, Fox might just cut this because it's just legally dicey enough. But they didn't cut that, even though there are a lot of telltale silences in this episode's commentary.

A lot of silence, yeah. I don't know if Armin would have been happier later after everyone hated this episode and that name became a curse word online for Simpsons fans. But he liked it at the time. He was flattered. He sounds like a mild-mannered guy

who doesn't go on alt.tv. That's true. So we flew in from LA to be here and they had the intercom saying who was late for flights. And the person who was late for my flight was Armin Tamarian, which was so close that I truly felt like maybe I was dreaming. I think you changed his name.

I think you changed his name. But yeah, wouldn't it be amazing if it was that lawyer who was just like, I need to change this. So call me stupid, but I think it just hit me that that joke of there's an extra meaning to, well, you had to be there, in that they were stuck. It was prison labor. You had to be there. Okay.

I watched this episode 60 times, and that's a joke now. It's finally, it hit me. I think, I want to think that's intentional. It's important to know when you see the real Skinner, he has just reentered society after 20 years of torture and slave labor. So he's a very disturbed man who probably needs a lot of therapy and help and assistance. And I think in this episode, Chalmers is secretly a social worker. He's always nearby.

I think he's afraid he's going to inflict some harm on a child. I think so. He should be afraid. I mean, he shouldn't be around anybody if he was just released from a prison camp last week. But I guess that's his generation. He's like, no, I'm back to work.

Got to go to the school, get my job. I guess it is actually very – it is a sad episode when you think of it that way. Like that he was tortured and then is catapulted out of town. Suddenly does make me like it a little less. But I digress. It's an interesting character. And that he was doing slave labor. I'll say that.

Well, he was doing prison labor into his 50s. That's not... That's rough. Yeah. But he just laughs it off. He's fine with it. I think after a couple decades, the other co-workers become your family.

Oh, yeah. And it's just your new normal, and, you know, I'm sure... It's all relative. It's all relative. Same shit, different day. You do what you can to survive. Real Skinner is much more insulted by a lack of patriotism in students

than being a prisoner for 25 years. But, yeah, so we get to hear how Armand, Tamzarian, and Skinner ended up in the same place. I'm an orphan from Capital City, and those who recall my fight to outlaw teenage rudeness may be shocked to learn that I myself was once a street punk. Oh yeah, the way I was headed, it was just a matter of time before I wound up in front of a judge.

They gave me a choice. Jail, the army, or apologizing to the judge and the old lady. Of course, if I'd known there was a war going on, I probably would have apologized okay who wants a piece of me you trying to get yourself killed tanzarian you've got your whole life ahead of you don't you have any dreams? My dreams all involve combing my hair. Oh, gosh, son. Everybody's got dreams. I come from a town called Springfield, and my dream is to go back and become principal of the elementary school.

Some people might call that a pretty corny dream, Sergeant. Well, there's nothing corny about fresh-faced youngsters skipping to school, scraping knees and spelling bees and pies cooling softly on the windowsill. Well, sir, if that's corny, then corn me up. Sergeant Skinner took me under his wing and showed me that life was worth living. I came to think of him as the big brother I never had.

It made me believe I might have a future after all. And when they told us he was missing, presumed dead, my future died once again. My life lost all meaning. Come on! Get to the part where you steal his identity! I'm trying to explain how emotionally fragile I was. Oh, it's one of those stories.

We were talking about things that did become memes. I really enjoy Corn Me Up. Corn Me Up should absolutely... Yeah, when you leave here tonight, find a way to sneak Corn Me Up in the conversation. Corn me up. Yeah, when you leave here tonight, find a way to sneak corn me up in the conversation. Whisper it into your lover's ear.

I also want to say that whole scene between, I'm just going to say the two Skinners, feels to me like a deleted scene from Waiting for Guffman in such a great way.

That sounds like a pretty corny dream. Like it just, it makes me feel good. I love it. That sounds like a pretty corny dream. It just makes me feel good. That's the corniness that Skinner aspired to emulate. When you see that real Skinner is that earnest and corny, that's what Armin is like, yeah, that's what I should do. It flies by so fast,

but it's actually a very informing character moment to know that skinner is an orphan he never had a family parents anything and so i mean that's also probably why he's accepted he when he thinks a mother's love is screaming at you and slapping you in the face i i wonder if that's partially from his upbringing as well it's very sweet and sad so when you see real skinner's dreams of what being a principal is, I think that's also why he gets so angry later in the episode,

because his dreams are being portrayed by real children. In front of the reality of awful children. Do you think it's possible that that lawyer character has the same likeness as the real Armin Tamsarian? It seemed interesting that they chose a lawyer slash judge. It'd be funnier if he looked like a blue-haired lawyer. That would be great.

And also, I think that Bart's reaction is what they feared the children watching the show would be like, get on with this, guys. Yeah, I mean, they can't put too many jokes in an episode where they're trying to evoke emotions. I mean, there's a few good jokes in that flashback, but they have to keep it semi-serious to get you invested. So Bart is the little kid watching,

wanting more jokes. And there's an overall joke to that corny scene of all happening on an active battlefield while they're all being shot at. That's pretty scary. And the action, oh my God, the action in this episode from Stephen D. Moore and the animation team god the action in this episode from steven d moore and the animation

team like the motorcycle skidding scene just has so much like energy to it and the reveal of the soldiers was just three flashes in the fourth one they're all revealed it's very beautiful yeah it's not a joke about you know vietnam it's just like this is scary war sucks like uh and so after after skinner is assumed dead we now get to see the first real meeting between Armin and Agnes sergeant Skinner meant the world to me and I I felt it was my duty to deliver the grim news to his mother Hello, I'm, uh... I'm... Seymour?

Is that you? I don't know why I did what I did. I guess I couldn't bear to tell her about her son. What I did was wrong, but... I'd do it again. Yes, Mother, it's me! You look different somehow. But you must be Seymour. Yes, you are it's me. You look different somehow. But you must be Seymour.

Yes, you are Seymour. As strange as it sounds, deep down I think she knew I wasn't her son, but the lie made us both happier than the truth ever could have. You could have some lima beans as soon as you cleaned your room. Go! Upstairs, third door on the left. Don't walk on the rugs!

Yes, mother. Don't judge her too harshly, Sergeant. She was a lonely old woman. If you must blame someone, blame me. Well, that's pretty much what I was planning to do there. Well, that's pretty much what I was planning to do there. Well, that's about it. So for the past 26 years, I've dedicated myself to living out your dream.

I didn't dream anything about an aqua suit or a lavender shirt, but you did take care of Mom. A dagger! A dagger through my heart! Oh, here, Mother, let me help you. Get your hands off me! Please, Mom. You too, stranger! I'm your son i have

no son look lady you obviously have at least one son no i have one stranger and one fraud take it easy mom i said back off you better do as she says she's quick with a hat pin uh well hey suppose i'll have to find a hotel. I won't hear of it. Tonight, you can sleep on the floor of your office. So I think the real Skinner is very much like a real person in this world, sort of like Frank Grimes, right, or Chalmers, in that he is pointing out the weirdness of this world

and that Skinner's suit is bizarre. It's a very season one of The Simpsons design where if you look at all the other men in suits in that scene, they all have normal colored suits, but Skinner's suit is the most bizarre colors to have on a character. It's a special suit. Yeah, it is one suit. I never questioned that color palette

until real Skinner does on him. Like a lavender shirt and an aqua suit is kind of... And a salmon colored tie. Yeah. He skipped the tie. It's pretty cool. If I saw someone dressed like that before obviously thinking, like, you look like Skinner,

I'd be like, what a bold, brave man. Well, I mean, as we see in Star Craving Dad, like, Homer wears a pink shirt, and it becomes, you know. How dare you. How dare you. Whose phone was that? I was going to roll into the secret of how The Simpsons ends, and now I don't think. Well, she's out. Never mind, I'm out.

Okay, so Agnes. Agnes knew all along he was not her son. I mean, you can only see a folded flag and assume so much. So I think that also makes their kind of Norman Bates psycho interaction even weirder that it is kind of a sort of consensual sub-dom relationship between the two of them. Don't do that.

There's no reason to do this. I don't need these buzzwords and the algorithm with my name. It truly is so funny, though, that he would say, somehow I knew. And then it couldn't be more laid out, obviously. It's like, you know, upstairs to the right. It made me laugh very loud in the airport today. And I got to think for the next, like, two years of his life, she, under her breath, says, no, you was like she she corrects him the whole time also

there's a great it's barely imperceptible but this the sound foley work you can hear him stepping like it's on a rug yeah and then when she says don't step on the rugs you then hear clack clack yeah which like he never stepped on the rugs in his home ever again after that it's just a joke oh come on now there was a really great twitter thread that went viral that I'm sure everyone in this room

participated in which was just like what is your favorite like line read of the Simpsons and there should definitely be like a very like a new one of obscure line reads because I love how she emphasizes you could have some lima beans. It's like, what?

Who says it like that? My favorite is when they see Tony Bennett in Capital City. They go, oh, it's Tony Bennett! And he goes, hey, good to see you. I thought that there was a distinct reason why he said that. It was just how he said it that day.

I think mine is, yes. Yes, yes, yes. I think, well, if I have to pick one right now, I think Frank Grimes' wah! Wah! That's not understated at all. That's actually quite overstated. That's because you do the best impression of it. Thank you.

So I also love just the movement of Skinner thinks that Chalmers finally being nice to him and offering to let him stay at his house. And just the way he just looks down at the floor after Chalmers insists he sleep in his office. It's almost like he's commanding him to, like he's in he's like no you have to stay here you can't leave your office he just because chalmers tells him to he sleeps there even though he could just go to a hotel yeah we're edna's but he does sleep yeah i mean i i don't think that it's malicious in any way i think that it's just like a really fun classic misdirect. Like, oh, come on, we can't. You sleep here. I don't think that there's any more.

But may I just say, Ralph was right, and he is an old man who sleeps at the school. Wow. Oh, the crop is good. So Lisa was wrong the entire time. Yeah, Lisa's dumb. And Ralph was dirty. Come back the next morning,

Skinner is having trouble integrating back into society now as a fraud. Bart is just calling him on it to his face. And then we get, this scene feels to me like the sequel to Billy and the Clonosaurus. So should I sign my original name? Just put an X, then call yourself whatever the hell you want. Well, no, there's no need for profanity. My name may have changed, but I'm still the same man I was last week. Not to us you're not. I mean, how would you feel if you suddenly found out Ned Flanders was an imposter? Who's Ned Flanders?

My next-door neighbor, religious guy. No, you mean Reverend Lovejoy. No, I don't. What I mean is, to me, you're just a stranger pretending to be something he's not. I'm sorry, but that's just how i feel no don't apologize it's time i stopped pretending i've called this assembly to announce my retirement effective as of the end of this sentence. This sentence I'm speaking. Right now. Period. I wrongfully usurped Sergeant Skinner's position, and I suggest you consider him to replace me. Thank you. Well, now, I don't know. Skinner, do you know anything about being a principal?

Well, it's been my lifelong ambition. And if a man pretending to be me could do it, well, then logically the real me must be far more qualified. Good enough. Armin Tamzerian's reign of terror is over. Now let us welcome our new Principal Skinner, Principal Seymour Skinner. Him. So the real Skinner is insane, right? He's an insane man. By insisting that logically he should have this job as his principal just because he's the real Skinner. And Chalmers just accepts

it, just as he usually does with the insanity of Springfield. He just says, oh yeah, you're not fired anymore. That's just how Chalmers rolls. It also reminds me of Chalmers. He just says, hey, he seems to know the kids' names.

That's all that someone needs to be the principal. With the Billy and the Clonosaurus reference, I really love any time that Apu is just so frustrated with the other characters. But something that Julia and I always love is when we're reminded that not everyone in Springfield knows

who one another is. That is kind of a trope that they're making fun of that every single person in the world or the universe of whatever sitcom knows each other. I love that they don't

know each other but then that you actually see Flanders like in the front row of this. Like he should know who Flanders is. He's in every single background. And all the characters

mentioned are played by Harry Shearer too. Which was lovely. And Ned briefly replaced Skinner as principal of the school too uh though it's it also it reminds me of uh ned not knowing who lenny is right right right yeah i mean even homer needs help with who lenny and carl are and uh yeah the the audience is very good at knowing

like well you haven't said period that would be the end of your sentence. They're just waiting and just blank, just a blank audience there. And, yeah, I really like the shot of the two Skinners standing next to Chalmers, too. Like, it's a nice, I don't know, symmetry to it. I like that. And, yeah, Skinner walks away. He's off the show now forever. It's done. And that his

first, so he has to say goodbye to his family, or his people who aren't his family anymore. It's not in the clip here, but the Radio Shack Battery Club, that is a very funny thing to do. You lived a good life. He talks

fairly highly of his trip to upstate New York and has somehow got 10 Canadian dollars. He didn't cross the border, but he highly of his trip to upstate New York and has somehow got 10 Canadian dollars. He didn't cross the border, but he got 10 Canadian dollars in upstate New York. Well, clearly that was why he brought up Albany expressions and steamed hams. He remembered his trip to upstate New York. There really are so many sweet, tender moments of The Simpsons,

and that's always what kind of makes an episode so special. But I really do love the line when you know he's Skinner's Armin is clearly setting up that his life is kind of lame. The fact that he has like no offense but like the Radio Shack loyalty card or Battery Club whatever and the Canadian dollars. No offense to Canadians.

You know he gets the response back of like you lived a good life and he responds back like it's your life i just kept it warm for you and i like yeah that's a really good line i also really like i mean obviously this is a cartoon comedy so we don't need to get into like uh you know the mishkas of like paperwork with like the irs to transfer an identity but i do love the choice of these sort of petty arbitrary things being all that divides you between being the person to your left.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, all I need to do is circa this era give you my blockbuster card and the keys to my car, and now you're Julia. You know? I don't know if this is in any clip that you have, but I also love that as Skinner Armin is leaving he's given a poached fish from Agnes like what a what a going away gift when you really care about someone you shouted from the mountaintops so on behalf of Desjardins insurance I'm standing 20,000 feet above sea level to tell our clients that we

really care about you home and auto insurance personalized to your needs. Weird, I don't remember saying that part. Visit Desjardins.com slash care and get insurance that's really big on care. Care. Care. Did I mention that we care? It's a way.

Actually, that is in this next clip. Though the fish distracts me. It's such a cartoony fish. It's like General Sherman or something. Everybody look at the fish while in this next clip. Though the fish distracts me. It's such a cartoony fish. It's like General Sherman or something. Everybody look at the fish while we watch the clip. Oh, I nearly forgot. Your pocket watch. Mother's picture is still inside.

Take good care of her. I'll wind her every day. I poached some fish for your trip, Mr. Tamzarian. They're full of tiny bones, so I want you to be careful. I will, Mother... Uh, Mrs. Skinner? Well, I better be going. Oh, very funny.

Good evening, Edna. I know we were planning to see a film tonight, but instead I'm leaving town forever. No, please. I don't care what you've done. You're still a decent, honorable man. Mm. That's the kind of talk that makes me want to marry you. Oh.

But instead I'm leaving town forever. Goodbye. That's so cruel. I challenge anyone who's single to use that line when it's just not really working out. Oh, God. I think that might be the meanest line to fans, though, that they recognize what the normal response would be, but that wouldn't continue the plot in the direction they want,

so he just has to say, like, instead, I'm leaving town forever. He's really playing by the rules of the story. He knows the story that's being told, I think. Yes. You're saying you would prefer him to instantly marry Edna Krabappel on the spot? I think it is a fake-out, right? He should start a new life with her. Like, now he's Ar start a new life with her.

Now he's Armin again. Now he's free of Agnes. Why not marry Edna? She's down for it. It makes me think of the line later, which I'm sorry to step on, when Edna says to real Skinner, you haven't spoken to women in a long time, have you? And he just says, are you asking me out?

Yeah, does he think he's resuming that relationship as well now that he's Skinner? That's true. Yeah, it is a sad moment of him, of Agnes hugging Armin too and the way they just blankly look of like, what is this hug now? I really love it when the writers like indulge their romance

in it because it feels like like one of the truest romantic relationships that we've seen throughout the course of the show and you know their episode their initial episode is just so heartbreaking um but i also going back earlier in the clip i want to touch on how the eyes particularly of agnes skinner and arminmin Tanzarian are animated when they do that side hug that they kind of like bug out in a lifeless depressed way like the animators are just like pulling all

of these details from all these different angles to really tell like a really really dense you know story that has all these details that just make you feel all these emotions and that's all while the fish had his eyes bucked out a lot. I hadn't caught it the first time, but the second time it really got me. First you do, everyone says, first you do fish, then you do everyone else.

Everybody's just going to be staring at that fish from now on and all the times they watch this episode. Tomorrow on Simpsons Tattoos Instagram, we're going to see that goddamn fish on someone's calf and then it's going to say corn me up under it it's going to be great corn me up

SF sketch fest 19 hashtag corn me up alright and so yeah Skinner goes back to all the stuff he had

in storage from Armin including his like pretty well maintained motorcycle and just leaves town which we saw in the opening scene where the kids are just hanging out late at night

in front of a U-Store as they drive away. What else? Hope it wasn't a school night. And he's leaving for Capital City. I like that just little – he could have gone to any town, but the little bit of Simpsons continuity, too, to be like, no, he's from Capital City, the mean streets of Capital City. He's much more glamorous, though, right?

Well, there's a lot of broken windows his part of capital city is uh is a bad is the bad part of 433rd street do you have the clip of him going off i think you played it before yeah well the opening of up yours children i think is one of the best lines of all time uh and i'm sure a lot of us watched the show with our family members. We're all one family because we like this instance, but I just remember my dad laughing harder at Up Yours Children than anything I've ever said or done since.

But it's one of those- Just chasing that high this entire career. Yeah, but it's one of those, Up Yours is something that doesn't really make sense when you're a kid either, so I just remember trying to say it and like, but I never quite got it. And it's one of those things that finally I,

I think I understand. And I used it all the time. Well, I love that in that you get like him not being able to relinquish his last traces of that, like very proper dignity. And I think that that is when Skinner truly shines with like his little lines here and there.

One of my favorite lines of his of all time is, welcome to a night of theater and picking up after yourself. Which is what tonight is. But I love that contrast that they so consistently have for Skinner in his lines of dialogue, and I love that they didn't give up in this moment. It's already sowing the seeds of, he can't become Armin again,

even though he's trying to. He's just too, he's been Skinner too long for these 26 years. So they come back from break. The third act begins with Brockman saying he's going to recap the previous two acts of the episode, but then is interrupted by the unprofessionalism of the other Channel 5 people.

Then we also get to hear from real Seymour Skinner that Springfield, in some ways, is better than a Chinese prison laborer. And everyone cheers. Your new principal would like to say a few words. Remember, you have to respect him.

He's a war hero. Thank you, Chalmers. You know where I come from, there's no better way to get acquainted than by reciting the Pledge of Allegiance together. Why don't you lead us, son? Hey, America, you're so fine. You're so fine, you blow my mind. America. Well, that's very concise, but it's an insult to everything I suffered for. Now take a seat,

Junior, and listen to someone who gave their youth in service of their country. Mrs. Crabapple, the pledge, please. You haven't dealt with women for a long time, have you, Sergeant? Are you asking me out? Ah, 433rd Street, my old neighborhood.

Hmm. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Capital City's nakedest ladies. They're not even wearing a smile. Nod suggestively. Yes, six six count them six gorgeous ladies just dying for your leers and cat calls yowza yowza so mrs.

crabapple after nine years they reveal what the joke is behind her name I love it it's one of those another of those season one jokes that was like funny in the first episode and then they were just stuck with it for nine more years. I feel that whole scene is a very Frank Grimes-y, a grimy scene to me because it's him failing to be a character on a sitcom.

He's supposed to be funny or have a funny reply to Bart and stays like, you've insulted me. Like, how dare you? One thing that's, knowing how you feel about Rugrats, I'm not sure how you feel about Rocco's Modern Life. Oh, we're fans.

Oh my God, I love Rocco's Modern Life. Well, there's, so Rocco's Modern Life ended in 96 and wasn't this, so this was 97. There's an episode where he takes a job as like a sexy phone call operator and he goes, oh baby, oh oh, baby, oh, baby. It's very similar. And I'm not saying that Rocco did it first, because who cares?

But it was definitely in the air at the time. Topless Nudes is a very funny name for a strip club. But also, just the copy they gave him to read, it seems they really enjoy letting people know the women are miserable there. They don't smile. They are awaiting your catcalls. They're just dying for your catcalls.

I just remembered a memory of when this episode first came out. I remember watching it as a kid, and that scene, and really the whole neighborhood of Capital City. I didn't register when I watched it as being this like really gross, decrepit place. I remember watching it and being like, oh that looks like the neighborhood around my dad's divorce

apartment. And being like, aww. Like a warm feeling. Did he sleep in a racing car? He slept in a racing car. Don't feel bad for me, I've gone to therapy. Not a he sleep in a racing car? He slept in a racing car. Don't feel bad for me. I've gone to therapy. Not a bed, just a racing car? Just a racing car.

One line that we skipped over just very briefly is just because they had to, again, plug the Simpsons family in a lot. You see the family watching the news story, and there's just the moment of stench blossoms, which I think is something that also needs to kind of get into the vernacular. That and scum drops. Scum drops.

Candy is the scum drops. Flowers are stench blossoms. Or crap weeds. Or crap weeds. And that was really, that's the closest, I think, to Ken Keeler's vision of this episode of them. They are the audience saying, I don't like this new Skinner. And everybody else says, I like him better than the old Skinner.

It's the fans reacting to Ted McGinley, say, on Happy Days. And there's still time to get scum drops from the lobby. We have about half an hour left, so buy some scum drops. But before you do, watch this next clip where we see how Skinner is really not working out with his mom. For some reason, this 55-year-old man doesn't want to be bossed around by his mother. Seymour, it's 7.30.

Where were you? A bar, Mom. I don't know what that is, but on Fridays, you come straight home after school. Tonight is still a wet night. Sit there. I really just came home to change into a turtleneck. Seymour! Sit! In the

morning. Oh, Mom? I'm borrowing your car. He's a bad boy. I think he spends a lot of nights in bars. I think. In a sensible turtleneck? Turtlenecks, that's a bad boy. I think he spends a lot of nights in bars. In a sensible turtleneck? Turtlenecks, that's a nighttime wear. Not at the daytime in the bar. That's when Agnes realizes she wants that weenie back.

Her and Enda both miss that weenie. While Marge is like, this other guy is just as much of a weenie as them. No, he's their weenie. He was our weenie. He's a wiener in different ways. And this, right in this episode, is one of the best, like, visual gags in the show's history. I just love this whole sequence here.

Okay, once more, where are we going? The capital city. Why are you and the old lady in the car? We're going to talk Armand Tam's area into coming back. Why is Marge here? I came up with the idea. And why am I here? Because the streets of Capital City are no place for three unescorted ladies.

Why are the kids here? Because we couldn't find Grandpa to sit for them. Why is Grandpa here? Because Jasper didn't want to come by himself. Fair enough. Hello, beautiful. In your dreams. We'll see about that.

Hello, beautiful. It's always good when another old person is annoyed by Abe Simpson. He annoys everyone. Well, it actually is a good reminder that it's not just that everyone hates old people. It's just everyone hates Abe. Yeah. Abe and Agnes should have had more scenes together. They have a real good chemistry of her hating him. But because of that joke in the next scene, there are just ten people in Armin's room.

There's a lot of space. You know, in thisman's room there's a lot of space you know in this transient apartment there's a lot of space in there uh but yeah actually let's let's see how arman is doing my mind is made up i'm not coming back and that's final oh seymour and i'm not seymour my name name is Armin. This is Armin's apartment, Armin's liquor, Armin's copy of Swank, Armin's frozen peas. Can I see your copy of Swank, Armin? Yes, you can. This is Armin's life, and maybe it's not perfect, but at least I'm back where I belong. I was born in O'Goodnick, and I'll die in O'Goodnick. Seymour, I didn't bring you up to use language like that. Well, you didn't bring me up at all. The hell I didn't. I've been taking care of you for 26 years. I'm the only mother

you've ever known. But you have your real son. You're my real son. You've been my son longer than he has and he doesn't need me and I don't need him. Now you'll march yourself downstairs and get in that car. Yes, Mother. And the rest of you too. Yes, Mrs. Skinner.

Do you guys remember if this is the point in the series where the animation was being sent and the people who it was being sent to drew the pupils too large every time? I think we're past that. Oh, yeah. Because I thought that was four or five. Yeah, you're right about that.

But then in this episode, pupils are crazy. I like them. I love... Okay, so if you guys don't know this, there have been times within the series but pupils are crazy. I like them. I love... Okay, so if you guys don't know this, there have been times within the series that the pupils have been unintentionally large because... I don't remember where it was sent,

but the people who were doing it thought it was cuter, and they wanted to make the Simpsons look cuter, which is funny, because that's kind of not what they're going for. I think Korea is somewhere. Probably. And so it's funny, because it ends up with a very different looking and

therefore acting Homer. Because if his eyes are suddenly big, it's kind of like, aw, he made a mistake. As opposed to when he's strangling Bart. It's like, aw, that's cute. As opposed to how it normally is, which is like, aw, that's abuse. But I feel like, especially when we zoomed in on

Agnes' eyes earlier, those pupils were huge. And that's the type of things that people talk about when they have two Simpsons podcasts side by side. Eye size is very important to us. I would double all their pupil sizes. I think they're cuter that way. They are cuter.

Matt Groening is too much of a control freak around the Simpsons eye size. But I also love how comfortable Homer is reading pornography in front of his kids. He's really embracing that low class lifestyle. That's low tier porn. You have to go to certain truck stops to find Swank. That's all they sell in his neck of the woods

is Swank. Even the Wikipedia article for Swank is outdated. I can't find current information about Swank. Swank is a real thing? It's real. Or it was real. This happens so often where I think maybe a lot of people that are kids watching it

maybe don't realize that some of the things aren't Simpsons inventions. Swank is one, but I truly didn't know that MacGyver was a real thing. I thought that they made that up. But I'm dumb.

Oh. Oh. Yeah. So it's time. but I'm dumb. Oh. Oh, yeah. So, it's time. They're running out of time in this episode. They have to jam Skinner back into things and make everything right, and Homer has the effectiveness of just the sledgehammer

to the situation here. Everybody, look. Armin Tamzerian's back, and he's going to take over the school again. Now, hold on. Armin Tamzerian is an unsavory character who played us all for chumps. All right, all right.

So he's a fraud. I don't care. His mom doesn't care. Do any of you care? You all seem to be forgetting that I am Seymour Skinner. This is where I belong. You can't ask me to

disappear just because you like some other guy better. I gave half my life for you people. Aren't I entitled to a little dignity? You're, uh,

you're right, Sergeant. Well, I don't see any way out of this. Now, if you'll allow me, I think I have a solution that'll satisfy the town and let Sergeant Skinner keep his dignity. But I'm a hero! And we salute you for it. Now don't come back. We had a very different perspective on war heroes in the 90s, I think.

Yes, yeah. They just point and laugh at him. I mean, it's a very pre-9-11 perspective on war heroes in the 90s, I think. Yes, yeah. They just point and laugh at him. I mean, it's a very pre-9-11 stance on war heroes, I think. It was before Clint Eastwood was directing movies, so as you understand. Well, and I think it's a commentary, too, on just like, in the 90s it was still felt like, Vietnam, that was a war we lost, and people looked down on the veterans of it.

They didn't celebrate them the same as they were the greatest generation in the 90s. So I think it's a people look down on the veterans of it they don't sell they didn't celebrate them the same as they were the greatest generation in the 90s so i think it's a little bad also on the commentary they must have done it not too long after 2004 because uh bill oakley draws a direct parallel to how nobody gave a shit about john kerry being a veteran as well uh and yeah i think those seymour skinners should be happy that he gets ejected from the show, not murdered like Grimey. It's not so

bad. Or Rex Banner, too. He was murdered as well. Yep. They did not create a lot of recurring characters. Wasn't Roy murdered, too? He went to live with two sexy ladies. So wait, Sherry Bobbins, Rex Banner, Frank Grimes, they're all murdered in season eight.

Yes, yeah. Wow. Well, Disco Stu still stands tall. I don't think that Sherry Bobbins was murdered by an airplane. I think she just, it was like a- Oh, that pilot knew what he was doing. Oh, no. The pilot flies through geese.

He murdered those geese. And I assume that Skinner was eaten by birds on that train. They just swarmed on him. They starved to death and then we got him off there. Well, he didn't come back. He was literally run out of town on a rail. Yeah. So here we get the finale here.

This is it being as meta as it can be about how you're supposed to forget all this episode happened. I'm sorry, Seymour. It's nice you're alive, but you're just not what I'm looking for in a son. I'm glad you understand.

This is a lovely gesture, but we still have to face the fact that I'm not really Seymour Skinner. Oh, no, we don't, Judge Snyder. By authority of the city of Springfield, I hereby confer upon you the name of Seymour Skinner, as well as his past, present, future, and mother. No game.

And I further decree that everything will be just like it was before all this happened, and no one will ever mention it again, under penalty of torture. Here, son. This is yours again. I've never been happier or prouder to be Seymour Skinner. But these last few days as that hot-headed rogue Armin Tamzerian have taught me a thing or two. You know, maybe I've been a little too

uptight in the past. Well, from now on, you're gonna see a new Seymour Skinner. Oh, no, we won't. Yes, mother. Very good. Yeah! So that was Judge Schneider

enforcing what were the rules of TV at the time. Yes, yeah. The pre-streaming world. I think you should assume he did that off-screen So that was Judge Schneider enforcing what were the rules of TV at the time. Yes, yeah. The pre-streaming world. I think you should assume he did that off-screen in all previous episodes of Broke Reality. The B-sharps never existed. And just even when Skinner Armin tries to say, like, well, okay, you're not supposed to remember I'm not Seymour Skinner, but maybe I'll be a little different. No, you cannot be that even.

No lesson can be learned from this episode. It is stricken from the record. It's also a very active Homer. Homer planned all this out. Yeah, I was going to say, Homer has a lot of pull for someone who can't get a babysitter because they're blacklisted. It's amazing the ways that his name helps and hurts him.

This is much more of the schemer Homer than the can't take his hands off of a crystal Pepsi. I guess, yeah, final thoughts on this episode, guys? It's one that it's truly a roller coaster because you could really see every single side to it. Even talking about it tonight being like, he's a tortured war veteran. It's like, oh, no, I feel bad for loving that he leaves. But ultimately, I think it's a great episode. It's a special, unique episode, and it's just super fun. Yeah, I mean, I know that I've been playing devil's advocate

pretty much this entire time, but, you know, I feel like this episode, it does the job that you want good TV to do where it tells a compelling story at no point over the course of this episode are you bored are you you know sort of like thinking about what else you can be doing like it just it all of the narrative just keeps pulling you deeper and deeper and I think all the choices that they make are correct especially at the end you know this is something that we see a lot in Simpsons episodes where they have so much story, and it's moving like just a steam engine.

And then they find that they have literally 45 seconds left, and so they have to really tie it up, and sometimes they make fun of themselves for doing it. At the end of Das Boost, they have the voiceover that says, and then the kids got off the island by Moe. Let's say Moe, which is one of my favorite jokes. But I think that the way that this wraps up, it's just so fun, especially given that this is like

such a meaty story that could have been extended into a two-hour movie or whatever. The controversy of what it's based on keeps changing. But I think that they do the right thing. And me as a viewer back then, me as a viewer today, I still feel content with the choices that they made and that I want the new old Seymour Skinner to come back. And I just think that, I don't know,

I think that they handled it perfectly. I don't find it controversial in that way at all. Yeah, one quick other thought about it is just like the ending just reminds you it's a cartoon. To not take it too seriously. Oh, you're right. Yes, that's not... Training someone, as that one reviewer

said, is not something I think that really happens in real life, so it's a good reminder to not take it so seriously. Well, I love Skinner and I think ultimately the emotional beats of the story really work well, and I think his the emotional beats of the story really work well. And I think his backstory does inform who he is as a character. It doesn't feel off to me.

So I feel like it's a good episode. And I didn't hate it at the time. And I see this as not being called it as often as later worse episodes would be. I think ultimately they had respect for the character, which I think they did not have in the Maude Flanders dying episode. I think the respect for Skinner, you can see it on display here, and they love Skinner so much. Yeah, well, I would just add one more to what I said of,

I would much prefer a TV show that I love to take a big swing, and this is a big fucking swing. I would much appreciate that than playing it safe and just having this monotonous complacency of you know we're just going to do exactly we're going to pay attention to what audiences are responding to online and just cater to that because then you get you know something that is so

memorable and and this is like the opposite of that you know we're still talking about it all these years later so yeah i i also i still really love this one too i think it it sticks with me just as one of my favorite like meta episodes of the show just like i i love itchy and scratchy poochy homer's enemy the spinoff showcase like just these comments on television through the show and comments on the show's own continuity. And to find jokes within that is funny. And there's just so many great lines in this that I am sad to get overlooked, I think, by the Simpsons fandom

just because this episode basically has a scarlet letter on it as the bad episode. And I guess, well, I'd like to also ask the few people who clapped at the beginning, have we changed your mind? Yes. Woo!

We did it! So I guess we have to wrap up here. Thanks for coming out. By the way, our podcast will not end after this event, so we will not turn to sand, but thanks to Allie Gertz and Julia Prescott. They were so great. Listen to their podcast,

Everything's Coming Up Simpsons. It's great. Fantastic. Thank you. Hashtag corn me up. Don't forget, everyone says that now. And you can meet us

out in the lobby. Please buy posters and stuff. They're out there. Thanks for coming out. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Wow. Infotainment.