Talking Simpsons - Talking Simpsons - There's Something About Marrying

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

"As long as two people love each other, I don't think god cares whether they both have the same hoo-hoo or ha-ha." - Marge Simpson When tourism starts declining thanks to several of Bart's famous pranks, the city of Springfield legalizes gay marriage—and Homer cashes in as a hastily ordained minister. But when Patty comes out of the closet to marry her newly revealed fiance, the truth is revealed in a shocking twist that'll definitely make you happy it's not 2005 anymore. Support this podcast and get over 200 ad-free bonus episodes by visiting Patreon.com/TalkingSimpsons and becoming a patron! And please follow the official Twitter, @TalkSimpsonsPod, not to mention Bluesky and Instagram!

This podcast is brought to you by patreon.com slash Talking Simpsons. Head there to check out exclusive podcasts like Talking Futurama, Talk King of the Hill, the What a Cartoon movie podcast, and tons more. Ho's this event or product. Hoi, ho, everybody, and welcome to Talking Simpsons, the podcast that offers hot gobs of gay green. I'm one of your host Bob Goobble Glop Mackey, and this is our chronological exploration of the Simpsons, who is here with me today, as always. Henry Gilbert, and if Julio doesn't want that, he can give me a call.

And this week's episode is, there's something about marrying. This isn't a problem for you, is it? Oh, no. No, no, why would it be? I love you. I love gay marriage. So I'd be a super hypocrite if I didn't love your gay marriage, right? This episode originally aired on February 20th, 2005, and as always, Henry will us know what happened on this mythical day in real world history.

Keanu Reeves' Constantine beat Son of the Mask at the box office, Avatar the Last Airbender, and Robot Chicken debut on cable animation, and on the GameCube, we get the release of Star Fox Assault. Okay. Well, I think anything would have beaten Son of the Mask. But hey, good on Constantine. I watched it recently. It's very silly.

No, I put it on in the video store in a light background watching it. But of course, it's funny. You have watched recently two films that I, like, barely watched in the past because I rejected them as not good at adapting comic books I enjoy. Yeah, I didn't see this at the time. And I guess it was just, like, a late-night goof. Why don't we watch Constantine? It looks silly.

And it is. And there's a character named Chaz in the movie, played by Shia Lebov. And I feel like the movie keeps trying to make Chaz happen, and there's, like, a stinger scene that's basically setting up the Chaz movie. Oh, man. There was no Chas movie. That sounds like it went just as well as it did for a been off of Indiana Jones starring him as well. I'm okay with his time and the sun being over.

Now he just like gets in the fights in New Orleans. Is that what he's doing now? Yes, the films he's appearing in are pretty much just phones filming him screaming and attacking people. He won't be evening any Stevens anytime soon, is what I'm saying. See, I rejected Constantine because like character of John Constantine, co-created by Alan Moore, in Swamp Thing, like he is a British man who is blonde and smokes all the time. And I believe Keanu Reeves is Constantine, isn't any of those three things, right? No, no.

He looks like Keanu Reeves and he sounds like Keanu Reeves and he acts like Keanu Reeves. And Son of the Mask was, boy, yes, it's mainly only watched by people who do bad movie podcasts. Yeah, I think at this point I probably heard four bad movie podcasts cover, Son of the Mask. Yes. I don't think I've actually seen it either, only the clips. of like as a plot point I believe Jamie Kennedy puts on the mask and then procreates with a woman

and then that child has like mask DNA and is a mask baby I believe because I've heard so many bad movie podcasts about this film the movie does include mask sperm oh good good it's always good to see the character sperm as hey we've seen Homer sperm and now we see a mask sperm as well and yeah we've covered Avatar

the last Airbender a little while ago and what a cartoon but I actually watched the entire series since that. It was one of the shows I watched all of last year, and it's a good show. Younger millennials were lucky to have a nice show like that in their youths. Yeah, out of all the shows that tried to borrow the anime aesthetic, this one did it the most successfully, and I only watched it for the first time all the way through during a quarantine, I guess, or during the pandemic, and yeah, really enjoyed it all the way through. And also, it's funny timing, because Avatar is being worked on by one of the lead directors is Lauren McMullen, who literally

left The Simpsons to work on Avatar the Last Airbender. So funny timing. And robot chicken, we haven't covered yet on a water cartoon yet, I don't think. You know, this might surprise everybody out there. I'm not really a fan of Robot Chicken. I respect that they are kind of still going. But I think they always went for like the easiest joke. And that kind of irritated me.

Yeah, no. I mean, it's first thought of like, well, okay, what do we think about Liono? Sword's like a dick, right? Okay. All right. Good starting point. And it's basically like, What if it was family guy, but there was no family?

It was all just cutaways. Yes, only the cutaways. Was it you that told me, I thought I heard recently that, like, Seth Green in an interview said that he had to, like, tell the writers on more recent robot chicken, they can't do 80s toy jokes anymore because, like, the demographic is aged out. Kids don't get 80s toy jokes anymore. Yeah, it was something like that or the fact that he doesn't really understand current robot chicken references, but that's okay because he's, like, 55.

Yes, he's rich enough already, right? Yes. I liked a good robot chicken here and there, but it's so easy jokes. But when you're getting like dozens of jokes, much like Seth MacFarlane production, when you get that many jokes at once, occasionally you're going to chuckle. I respect it for being stop motion on television. It was still fun to watch for that reason alone. And Bob, this is one of those Star Fox games that you recently dunked on,

as people were talking about it, excitement of Star Fox being in that Mario Galaxy. I dunked on it just by saying there has not been a good Star Fox game since 1997. which is true. I did a two-part Star Fox series for Retronauts. And there are some highs, there are some lows in the sequels that follow Star Fox 64, but there is nothing ever that good, unless you want to count the 3DS remake, which is also very good, but it's a remake of the best Star Fox Game 64. This is another attempt to farm it out to another developer, like, oh, what's your spin on Star Foxx? And they come back with something that's not great.

And to be fair, it is one of the better bad Star Fox games, but I feel bad for all the kids who are seeing Fox McCloud for the first time learning. he's more than just a Smash Brothers character, wanting to play more Star Fox games and realizing, boy, there's a lot of crap out there. And Nintendo has not even bothered publishing a new Star Fox game since Star Fox Zero 10 years ago,

which I somehow have two copies of. As I recall, Assault was also part of the, it wasn't like the Tri-Force arcade block, but it was basically like them shopping it out like this time to like third parties. If I recall right, like Namco is sort of involved in the making of it. Yes, Namco is the developer of this game.

Right, yes. It's not a real priority, and it does have to, you get out of your ship all of the time in it, as I remember too, like you're basically like a walking tank. You don't feel like a guy. You much more feel, I didn't love Star Fox Adventures trying to be a Zelda game, but at least it actually felt like you were walking around as a dude instead of just like in a car that's shaped like a Foxman who shoots lasers and assault.

Yeah, I really want them to make another good Star Fox game. But again, it's been nearly 30 years. And I say, hey, just remake Star Fox 64 again, this time. for Switch 2. I don't care. It's a great game. It's such a great game. Maybe that's the problem. They can't top Star Fox 64, so they just decide somebody else can figure this out. Not us. I guess it has been nearly 20 years since that 3DS remake, at least the better part of 20 years. Yeah, it's one of the first things I reviewed for OneUp.com, so I think it's like 15. And I have a personal memory of Star Fox Assault as well from my blockbuster video days. Bob, did you know that Star Fox Assault was a rare pre-release game like as in it got to come. out early as a rental at Blockbuster video. To think of the lucky people who got to play that game a week early. It was one of the times where I really got to show my worth to employer who really cared at Blockbuster.

But basically we got, you know, our usual, the box came in, put these on the shelf. And Star Fox Assault is in the group. And it says, okay, put it out. I put it on the shelf. And like, in that same day while I'm there, somebody who purports to be working at like a game stop or another competing store comes in. and says, hey, you can't sell that. You're breaking street date.

You can't rent that. Like, I'm calling the reps. I'm getting you guys in trouble and leaves. And my boss tells me to take them off the shelf. I'm telling her like, no, it's a special deal. We're allowed to have this. And I even, like, pull up the website on a computer to be like, see, there's the news on GameSpot or IGN or whatever.

Honestly, you should have thrown something at this mole coming to your video store to see if you're breaking street dates. I encountered that when I was working at a game store. There were some employees that were sent out to see, like, oh, what's on the shelves at FYE or Best Buy, they come back reporting. I'm thinking, why are you so involved in being a corporate snitch? You don't get any extra money from saying, oh, Best Buy put Super Mario Sunshine on the shelves 12 hours early. They just love it for the game of just like fucking with somebody else, I guess. They're just little snitches. What did you say to this person?

Did you say, go to hell? What's your problem? I think I did say like, no, Blockbuster has a special deal. We're allowed to rent it early. It's been on the news. And the guy didn't believe me. And my manager was there, so I was being a good boy and just saying like, no, I'm pretty sure we can. And the manager still took it off the shelf just out of like fear of if the dork, the one person who plays games, the blockbuster says or plays GameCube, tells them like, no, this game, we're allowed to sell it or rent it. They didn't believe me. Well, all for Star Fox assault a game that nobody remembers, talks about, cares about it's not playable today. In general, at the GameCube games at that Blockbuster, there was a reason it had a third of the show. self-space that the PlayStation 2 did there.

Like, it was not when Metroid Prime, like, two came out and nobody was renting it instead of, like, we had way more copies of Medal of Honor. I was like, you know, if you like first-person shooters, you strength that, nobody cared. Nobody would listen to me. So that's how I remember this February of 2005, very well when this famous episode of the Simpsons first aired.

This landmark progressive episode about gay marriage. Don't watch the third act. Anyhow, there's no guess because you don't want three people complaining about this episode two is enough. Yes. And to pressure, another, like, if we had gotten a queer LGBTQ guest on this and told them like, hey, what do you think of this ending? And I would just feel bad about that. We'll get to it. We're walking through a minefield right now very carefully. Yeah, this is unfortunately what sometimes, that it can just be depressing that, like,

a queer-focused episode of The Simpsons from 2005 can end up feeling more problematic by today's standards than like Homer's phobia from 1996 or seven, right? Yeah, yeah. They're clearly making this as an attempt to say, like, we believe in this idea of gay marriage or same-sex marriage. We are good liberals. We want to promote this idea and like make a funny comedy episode about it. And they're well-meaning, but they're well-meaning for people from 21 years ago.

And there are certain things they don't know, as most of us didn't know. So this is not us trying to cancel people who were working on the show back then. It's just like, this is just the state of ignorance about certain aspects. of certain communities that a lot of people were living in in this time period. Oh, yeah. I think embarrassingly for myself even, like in much older episodes of this podcast, I think once or twice I brought up this episode as just a faint memory I had of just the Patty coming out storyline and also the pro same-sex marriage position and remembered it as like a good episode, at least on the issues. And like I had completely forgotten or maybe chose to

forget the third act twist. Well, this episode is inspired by the Winter of Love. I didn't know what's called that. Apparently it was. This is when a same-sex marrying spree happened in San Francisco, all thanks to the wonderful Gavin Newsom. So before February 11th and March 12th, 2004, he permitted same-sex marriages in the city until the California Supreme Court, aka the fun police, shut it all down.

Yes, it was before I moved to San Francisco, but it was something, or the Bay Area. And it was something that was in my mind, and it made Gavin Newsome like famous and liked by people like me then. It was a gutsy move. I look back on it now, and it's just like, oh, it's generally his quest for headlines and notoriety in his decades-long plan to be an evil president someday. And I hope he never succeeds. Yes, same here. And I'm sure we'll talk about it. We covered the fight for marriage equality on the Talking Futurama episode all about Proposition Infinity,

which was a more recent episode about same-sex marriage. But it's important to note that nationwide legalization of same-sex marriage didn't happen until June 26 of 2015, meaning marriage equality in the United States is two days younger than Talking Simpsons. Oh, man. Part of why we started it was because I was so excited. Yes. I'll get married one day. Let's start a podcast. Anyway, that's how recent this is in our history, in our rearview mirror. To watch this episode now, like I had to not only looked up like, oh, what was the timeline of marriage.

equality legalization in the U.S. and where were we at when this first aired in February 05, but also that like, you know, other stories about gay cartoons and other things for context. It's just like it's easy to think it feels like it is set and unchangeable, though. Certainly people are trying to change it. But it was pretty much the last good SCOTUS Supreme Court's decision, I think, was that. Yeah, I think they just shut down the Voting Rights Act. Yep. This cuts to now, but it's like they keep.

leave me. I'm paying attention to it as someone in a same-sex marriage, but that they recently had a new attempt to overturn it given to the court for review, and if they took the case on, then it could have overturned it, but the

Supreme Court demurred on it. It was the one with the bitch that won't go away, Kim Davis, like, again, trying to sue over this in marriage equality in the U.S. You say that the winter of love, like, and that Massachusetts, like it was May of 2004 was when it became

the Massachusetts became the first state to legalize same-sex marriage, not a civil union. Vermont had civil unions in 2000. And also to put it to like, this is when George W. Bush as part of his 2004 election campaign.

They're talking about a nonstop. Republicans saw it as a wedge issue. You know, he said he wanted a constitutional amendment for, quote, defining and protecting marriage as a union of a man and a woman as a husband, wife. And Louisiana, Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, and Utah in 2004 all had ballot initiatives that outlawed same-sex marriage as well.

And around this time, it was considered like an out there far-left opinion to be pro same-sex marriage because, you know, great presidents like Barack Obama originally campaigned on the idea like no marriage is between a man and woman, that's it. And then, you know, he changed his mind or he just spoke more honestly about what he actually believed, but this was just the talking point at the time for everybody, for every politician. Like, what do you believe in? And now we'll get to when we get to the third act. Now the questions

are different. Yes. The politicians are asked. Yeah. Obama, as first a senator and then as a nominee and president, he did say things like in 2004, he said, marriage is between a man and a woman. And, quote, I don't think marriage

is a civil right. And as I believe he frames it, he says he evolved. and changed over time. It was May 2012 when he officially endorsed same-sex marriage as the term

you would call same-sex marriage. That's 2012, Jesus. Well, I guess it was time to run for president again. Yep, yep. Well, and also, the polls were showing different things. Like, I mean, also, you know, let's talk about when this episode aired the presumptive 2008 Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton.

She was also hitting that very hard. In the year 2000, she said, I think a marriage is, as a marriage always has been, between a man and a woman. And in 2007, she will say, well, I prefer to think of it as being very positive about civil unions. You know, it's a personal position. How we get to full equality is a debate we're having, and I am absolutely in favor of civil unions. And she even, it was a year later in 2013 when she evolved. But also, I found like, it's her like yelling at Terry Gross, who is like the nicest NPR host ever,

where Terry Gross is like, so did you change your mind? And she's like, I never changed my mind. Excuse me, no, no, I did not change my mind. I didn't follow poll. Like, I've always felt this way. And it's like, ugh, lick. This is why you didn't fucking win. Anyway, that shit.

Henry literally bit his tongue. Yes. Ow. It feels with the Hillary Clinton campaigning on it, it seemed even more of like just cold political calculation of polls say this. So I believe that. and to see Biden and Obama, I at least think came to it more as other big-name Democrats, at least were a little more honest of like, yes, I evolved and changed my mind.

Again, I was just having to delve back into this old shit that I was paying a lot of attention to then, as personally invested in it. Like, oh, yeah, Hillary Clinton pretended like she always believed it. And Obama said the plate of queer people moved me to a bigger house. He pointed to the White House. And then later to a bigger Netflix deal. I've seen his hideous mansion. Again, it's like, obviously, this applies to so many things in life.

We both know the Republicans are the worst. They fucking suck, like, obviously. But that's why you expect more of establishment Dems and hate that they agree with Republicans on things. Like, I hold them to a higher standard, I think, for a good reason. Yeah, and I assume like everybody at the Simpsons at this time, they're proud carry voters, proud liberals. And they wrote an episode they thought Net,

Well, but it is satire, but it does actually engage with a lot of the arguments against same-sex marriage and against just trans people existing. Again, we'll cover that in Act 3. But you have to be very, very careful with satire because sometimes I'm like, I'm not sure what this episode is saying. I think this episode is like indulging in the slippery slope fallacy. And there's not a lot in here to let me know, like, we're just having fun with it. It just seems like, no, you're just presenting it like guys. Like, this will really happen if we allow same-sex marriage. I would characterize showrunner Al Jean and his politics as more center,

perhaps center-left on some things. But like, this is some radical centrism here of just like, well, we can't make the conservative side too wrong in this. Like characters, Homer also just typifies all of the things that people said gay marriage would lead to. Like, he actually legalizes incest in this episode as part of it. Like, it's insane that that happened. We have to get to the episode. But I feel like I can't stand that. when it's like, oh, we make sure to include both sides of the arguments.

Like, well, when it comes to rights, human rights, I don't need to hear the anti-human rights side. I'm pretty sure they're wrong. Yes. To even distinguish it with conversation or debate seems like gross to me. Yeah. Yes. In run up to the episode, I did want to mention they promoted this very well. And this is the highest rated non-super Bowl episode of the season, of regular episodes.

It was the highest rated. That shows what a hot button issue it was. I remember it feeling like that. like an event. I think I definitely heard about how at San Diego Comic Con in July 2004, Al Gene, like at the panel announced this. Homer

becomes a minister by going on the internet and filling out a form. A long time character comes out of the closet, but I'm not saying who. And that got tons of headlines. As a reminder, back then, it was a very big deal if a character on a show came out as gay, even as late as

2004, because there were a few like, oh, that's the gay show. That's Will and Grace. That's where all the gay stuff happens. But very rarely did you actually have, like, a gay character or someone come out as gay on a television show like The Simpsons. And for further context of, like, on shows like Will and Grace, even, the gay shows that were on network TV, same-sex kisses on those shows were rarely allowed, like very rarely allowed. And this was on adult programming, not kids programming. We're talking about here, too.

I think they made it a point of one mid-series episode on the show where Will kissed a man on the mouth for the first time in the show. And they're like, wow, that actually like, and it wasn't like a straight man kissing him or something. It was a romantic kiss between two men, which was not allowed for many seasons on the show. Here's another funny little bit from the BBC reporting on it in 2004. Grading also said plans were still afoot for a Simpsons movie, but it would not be made until the TV series finally. ended. That's good. Good joke, Matt. And so in the fallout of that, there were so many headlines of like, wow, somebody's coming out of the closet. People were thinking that like, oh, is Smithers going to come out of the closet? Who could it be? And another thing to put this in a time frame is, like,

it's insane. This really happened within a month of the release of this episode. I think you and I both remember this well, Bob. There was a TV special called, like, Focus on the Family. to the song We Are Family, that had SpongeBob and Barney in it, and it was accused of being a pro-homosexuality video. That was saying that, like, SpongeBob is gay. And as I dug, I remember that then, like, literally a Blockbuster. A person who rented for me a Blockbuster was like, oh, I shouldn't, like, rent this SpongeBob for my kid.

I heard it promotes an agenda, like, that literally happened in my life. Sir, I'm not SpongeBob customer service. I can't help you. By the way, we're recording this on SpongeBob's 27th birthday. Oh, hey, that's nice. Yes. I know. It's like Tinky Winky Barney Spund.

Like, there are so many like gay characters that are accused of promoting a homosexual agenda by weirdo fundamentalists. Sorry, Focus on the family was the one that accused them of it, I should say, in the video. It wasn't the name of the group. But Focus on the family, those assholes also said, and the PTC, the parent television council accused it of like, oh, well, they have a tolerance doctrine on their website. It even applies to homosexuals. They were very mad about a tolerance doctrine. And then two weeks before this aired was the event of the Postcards from Buster episode on PBS. Do you remember this, Bob?

Oh, it's like, so it was the Arthur character, his show? Yeah, yeah. He spin off from Arthur where Buster travels around and sends postcards of like, oh, there's fun stuff at this place or that place. And so he goes to Vermont and he meets another. fellow kid who has two mommies and that appearing on a PBS

kids cartoon it immediately gets pulled from the air George W. Bush's Secretary of Education is saying they are going to use this as an excuse to pull funding from PBS like it was a huge, huge thing of like this PBS cartoon is indoctrinating

children with the same-sex marriage messaging. And much later on Arthur in 2019 they depicted a same-sex wedding between two men. Well, one's Nardvark one's a rat, so you make up your mind, but they're both mad. See, that's that slippery slope there. Yeah, I wondered if that was them, like, kind of given a middle finger in their last episode to like, all right, you got mad at us for the gay agenda. Here's a bigger one in our last episode. In terms of, like, Patty being gay on The Simpsons, the most open reference to that was in Jawswired Shut when there was a parade and there was a stain in the closet floats.

And Smithers and Patty were both in the closet. We only see their arms, but we hear their chant. We're gay, we're glad, but don't tell Mom and Dad. And arguably, Patty was turned gay by seeing Homer naked in the Clown Without Pity segment of Triasa 4 or 3. So that is the rule here on The Simpsons. Like, everyone defaults straight until you see an ugly man naked. Yes, I think in the previous big gay episode we did, the Three Gays of the Condo, they also had a joke in there that women are lesbians because men are unattractive to them. That's why women are lesbians.

It happened to Susan on Seinfeld. I also wanted to read one conservative assholes. reaction to the news, which was Brent Bozell of the parents' television council who said, I'd rather them not do it at all. You've got a show watched by millions of children. Did children need to have gay marriage thrust in their face as an issue? Why can't we just entertain them? I should mention that Brent Bozell didn't do a good job with his own kids because one of his sons was a January 6th rioter who was the one who entered the Pelosi's office and left something behind that guy. You hate to see that. I,

Don't know if he has yet to be arrested on sex offender charges, but, you know, statistically speaking of January 6th guys. I mean, I'm more concerned from Nancy Pelosi's desk. I hate the woman herself, but a poor desk. I bet his feet run and everything. Also, as you'd say that Al Jean prophetically joked to the advocate when promoting the episode will offend you whether you're gay or you're straight. And one other funny thing they mentioned that I did confirm you actually could gamble on this episode. episode and who would be gay. They say it on the commentary and I found the sources of who was doing it. First, it was in an Irish betting site called, and this is their name for it, Paddy Power. Do you think you're saying a slur? I don't know. I don't know if Patty is a slur for the Irish.

I'm not sure. I'm being safe here. That's all. Henry, I'm part Irish. You can call me whatever you want. So these Irish betting site was taking bets on who is the gay character. They stopped taking bets in September because the smart money started coming in. Somebody must delete it that it was Patty. Like the Sun UK said like it's Patty. Like months before the episode it was going to air. There's a Patty Power Mole on the staff.

And then though, betus.com was able to get in on this, but it wasn't about Patty. The new bet was I'll just read from the Atlantic article here. Since posting odds on who will be out it is gay, BetUS says there have been more than 3,000 bets on Sunday's episode. In addition to place

bets on which character will announce his or hers homosexuality. Betts are also being wagered on whether the Fox Super Series will seal the matrimonial ceremony with a kiss. I think that was maybe because they thought like, well, all right, if people already know that spoiler, maybe they don't know if people kiss or not at the end of it so we can get people actually bet on that and lose money. Something new to gamble on. Didn't you know what?

The actual wedding doesn't end with a kiss. So if you bet on a kiss, you lost it. Gene does joke of like, why did we gamble on this and make some money on it? Why do we do some insider gambling? Speaking of Nancy Pelosi. Hey, yeah. That's how she got her fortune. And she's doing pretty good with it.

One other thing in the preface here, one last thing, is that it did come with a parental discretion-advised warning before the episode aired. It was in the disclaimer that was not on the DVDs or the Disney Plus version, but you will. hear it in the vintage ad that's plugged in here that sounds as good as I could make it sound. It was recorded off of somebody's TV. Yeah, you'll hear it, but it goes from the traditional Simpson's announcer voice to next on an all-new X-Files. It turns into

a very serious parental discretion advised. Don't send us letters. It is also interesting to hear this commentary recorded. It's legal in California by 2012. I believe 2011 is when Prop 8 gets defeated and it becomes California legal. It's so complicated. Again, that's why

I said, check out Talking Futurama, Proposition Infinity. I did the whole timeline of marriage equality. They made it confusing, so you'd vote against it. Yes. Yeah, that episode is all about Proposition 8, which was a horrible time to remember. But Bob did a great job, chronicling the history. I remember the night, everybody was so excited. And all my friends, so excited Obama won.

But we were also voting in California. And so Prop 8 also passed on that very same night. It was a fly in the appointment. But so the episode begins first with a. hockey couch gag, which is topical. Yes, I didn't know this, but I guess there was an NHL lockout from September of 2004 to July of 05, so a lot of time with no hockey. Listeners who heard our Lisa and Ice One know, neither of me and Bob know much about hockey. I did not know that 2005, this is from the Stanley Cup wiki page, there were two years when the Stanley Cup was not awarded, 1919 because of the Spanish flu epidemic, and 2005 because of the lockout.

So this was the only one that didn't happen because that seems to me that like, oh, so they actually still did a Stanley Cup in the COVID lockdown era too. Like even that couldn't stop it. Like a Spanish flu made COVID look like the calm and cold. So that's why the Simpsons are all holding the Stanley Cup at the time when the Stanley Cup finals would have been, I think at least the playoffs I think would have been started by February, let's say. I don't know how it works. All I know is that when hockey is on bars in Vancouver, that's like, oh, Oh, it's hockey is happening now. At the time of this recording, I think they're running near the end here

because I think it's always like it and the NBA finals are always happening at the same time. But what I do know is this episode begins with a classic Bart prank. He's leaving out free beer with a watermelon hanging to smash on whoever grabs that free beer. Millhouse is particularly tickled that the watermelon is seedless. Melhouse is pretty pedantic this episode, isn't he? I didn't know that. Look, I'm not a super watermelon.

fan. I'll eat it if it's in like a, you know, a fruit salad and all this stuff. But I don't know if I have ever bought just a full watermelon for myself to eat. And so I didn't know how popular seedless watermelons were. I don't think it's recommended that you don't buy a whole watermelon for yourself. That's a lot of watermelon. Those seedless watermelons like, they're really popular, aren't they? I think so. I mean, yeah, people don't like the seeds because they're just like one more thing to spit out of your mouth when you're eating a watermelon. The watermelon's good, especially it's summertime now everybody who's splitting those melons on the beach. Eater.com says that according to the agricultural marketing resource center, seedless

watermelons have dominated a market since the early 2000s. And starting in 2014, 92% of all watermelon shipped from farms have been seedless. You know what? I buy watermelon occasionally during the summer. And you're right. I don't remember spinning out of seeds since I was like a kid. So yeah, I guess they're default now. Seeing how they like dominated market since early 2000s, this is a relatively recent thing in the

American market for seedless watermelons here. The Eater article seemed to put it as like, sometimes you want an old-fashioned seed spitting watermelon. And the market is still there, but will they get completely phased out? That's why we can't have a new Yoshi's Island game, because when he eats the watermelon, they're all seedless. He can't spit out the seeds like a machine gun anymore. Man, do you think that new Yoshi's game is at least okay?

No. No, they're just for babies now. It's sad. It really is sad. It's the baby brand. But they already have Kirby for that. Kirby is like Evangelian now. I don't know if you played a recent Kirby,

game. Yes, the plot lines of Kirby have been Evangelian for about 20-ish years. Yes, it's crazy. That's right. So Barney, who is a full-on drunk now, he remembers his 12 steps to perfectly grab the beer and dodge the falling watermelon.

He just says out loud that, hey, this was a very cartoony opening to the episode and leaves with a meep-meep. Yeah, and dashes off like the roadrunner. I guess he's still struggling with alcoholism. This is still an aspect of his character. Yeah, I mean, he'll still be going to A, even in the movie in a couple years after this.

So I think they're just fully in like, he is a drunk now for jokes. And if we need to do a joke that he is struggling with AA, then we will. But he is an alcoholic from now on. So with Bart and Milhouse defeated, because everybody in town knows their game, they are wishing that somebody would just happen

to fall off a turn up truck and land in Springfield in our first clip. Hi, Bean Sprouts. The name's Howe Huser. I travel the country gawking and talking and I was hoping to take in your town. We can show you around if you don't mind a heap and helping a local color.

Why, my favorite color is local. Ooh, watermelon. Want to plant the seeds? It's seedless. Aw. Radioactivity! That means it's a place where we do radio activities. I'm happy to be exposed to that kind of radioactivity.

You know, the fish here are so friendly. You can walk right up and feed them. Hmm. Well, howdy, little fella. So at the time, I didn't know what this was because there were no James Adomian improv podcasts in 2005. So I didn't know about Hewell Hauser. This is Howl Heuser. And unless you have not heard James Adomian play Hewler on Comedy Bang Bang, which he doesn't do anymore.

I don't think he's done that for like over a decade. Sorry, I keep confusing the character's name with the actual name. So Hewell Hauser was mostly famous or entirely famous for his long-running human interest show, California's Gold, where most of the joy of watching the show came out of seeing how easily tickled he was by everything around him. And if you want to know, like, get to the root of who Hewel Hauser was as a person, just go on YouTube, type in Hewelhauser dog eating avocado. And it's like three minutes of him just being, like, over the moon about a dog eating an avocado. He just cannot get enough of it. He is so tickled and pleased with just this cute little critter eating a delicious avocado.

And the real Hewellhouser would be on The Simpsons in 2009 in the episode, Oh, Brother, where Bart Thou playing himself. Yeah, as Al Jean says, I think he made it sound like the day after the episode aired. Hewelhouser calls him like, well, hey, you should have had me on it. I'd have done it. He didn't have to do a parody guy. They made sure to have him back. The James Adomian version of doing it was just like, oh, wow, that's California's gold.

Like, it's so much fun. Weird timing. As I am doing prep for this episode, I'm also prepping for our episode of What a Cartoon movie about Winnie the Pooh. And Hewell-Houser is in the Stinger scene playing a character, which knock my socks off. I believe when I checked his IMD for, like, other appearances. Like, that's his last one because, like, he passed away two years after the movie Winnie the Pooh came out in 2013.

Like, he is not dead yet. but he's in his final days when they're recording the commentary, too. Like Selman joking that they should have written an episode where Hewell Houser and Howell Huser move in together. Also, it's funny with the subject matter of this, that Hewelhouser was a confirmed bachelor who spent a lot of his time in Palm Springs, which, you know, he kind of says, he's got like, oh, oh, gee, way is Sergeant Carter, I sure do you like this.

Like, he's got this, like, very, let's call him it, like, a Southern gay. Yes, it's part of his charm that he is like, And as a person who has visited Palm Springs, that there are a lot of gray-haired men who are also very fit like Hewielhouser was for his age. I've never been able to find the right girl. Yes. You go to his personal life section.

It just says he lived in Palm Springs. And you can make your assumptions from there. You stay away from those silver foxes. They're no good. You know, it was pretty nice going to Palm Springs because I felt young there. I was like, as somebody who in his 40s, whose partner is only eight years younger than him,

to be surrounded by gray-haired guys who are dating like dudes in their 30s. I was like, boy, I'm pretty young still. I'm feeling pretty good. It was a real boost of confidence there. I was thinking of Palm Springs as well because that was the most recent Patty episode about being gay in the most recent season.

She moves to the Springfield version of Palm Springs and is having a great time. Right. That taught me something because I assume Palm Springs is just for gay men. No chicks. When I was there in Palm Springs for their pride parade,

which is thankfully in like November when it is not killing you hot. It was like 90% older gay men and their younger partners. And then also like pockets of, you know, steadfast lesbians or at least sapphic partnerships, I'll say that. And just like, wow, look at that. There's some lesbians around here. They're not just being overridden by the tons of gay dudes who are here. Is Hal Huser is just, it's funny.

Like, I think Dan does a great imitation if he go like, wow. But in 2005, no. outside of California, nobody knows who or what this is. It's funny that this is a parody for them. To me, when I was watching it, I'm like, oh, this is just like a fun new character. I didn't think it was based on anything. I had no clues based on, like, I don't know how many people,

like how much California's gold aired outside of California on PBS and that stuff. Like, I was still living in Florida, then working at that blockbuster video. And, like, I became aware of it when listening to, like, 2000, an early 2009 or late 2008 comedy death radio podcast or comedy death rate radio podcast before it even became comedy bang bang and james adomian doing this very silly character that then i learn is a real guy yeah i first assumed that james ad domian made him up uh man he's so funny but here you get to see him horribly beaten they even find a way to one up the blinky jokes of like he comes across blinky just like they did in season two except this one is now

the creature from the Black Lagoon and beats the crap out of him. And the Blinky that we know is just his head and he emerges as a full fish man. I think I said that that was like an expensive late edition because the episode came in short too. But it's a great design. I wouldn't mind a toy

of that, of Blinky as the creature. Then we see that they've been pranking him all day but he gets hit with they go a bridge too far with old Huser. I was thinking maybe we could visit the hospital now?

Perhaps a stick of gum will lighten your mood. It always has in the past. Ow! Finger pain, I thought I had gum coming. That tears it. I've been smiling for 47 years, and you two broke my streak. Shame on you, and shame on you. And shame on your whole ill-mannered town.

Hey, that guy's shaming us. My self-esteem sure didn't need that. I don't think we'll be hearing from him again. You know, this caused me to look up the shame gesture, which is you extend one index figure vertically, and then you rub the other one horizontally across it. And I thought, this has to have an origin somewhere. It turns out that nobody really knows.

It's just supposed to symbolize friction, which is bad. Man, yeah, why is that? I'm glad you looked into that, but yeah, why would that indicate shame of just like other than a tisk tisk. I don't think anyone has done that sincerely since like 1957. My teachers never even did that in the 80s and 90s. But Hewelhouser is just the kind of old-timey guy who would do that.

Shame, shame. I also like that prank gum is what took him over the edge. Finger pain. I thought I was going to get gum. Hey, a lot of this episode is funny. It is good. It's good. There is funny stuff in this.

And that he gets back on the turnip truck that he fell off of. to start the scene is how he leaves town is on the very same turn of truck. You know, prank gums still are out there. You can buy them on Amazon. And what I appreciate is they have to make up fake brands for them that look like double mint gum

or other popular gum brands, but they need to have, you know, trouble mint, which is what it says on millhouses. That is what the real ones have to say now too. Though that seems like almost two, I've seen ones that are like more of a joy buzzer effect they were selling on Amazon, but one that actually has like a mousetrap snap back on there, I feel like that is enough damage to like somebody would sue you over kind of thing.

Yeah, we're not offering gum in this way anymore. Well, even if you're going to offer gum, would it be in one of those like, you know, a stick of gum seems even less likely than like a tub of the gum that you just tap out of the top instead, right? That too, or you either take the gum out yourself and hand to the person a piece or you give them the pack and they take their own. It feels very conspicuous to slowly offer them the gum in this very, like, rehearsed way.

That is true, yes. Like, if somebody offers you that, they've got a plan there. And so Bart says they'll never hear that, hear from him again. Three days later comes up on screen, a good bit there too. First, we see that the Kitchen Wizard on The Light News is showing how to make a recipe. And also, he writes books on Winston Churchill. Yeah. It's not what you think he'd write.

But this is where Howell lets people know the real deal about Springfield. And yeah, I guess I must love the Hewelhouser parody here because I clipped basically every scene of him. It's a fun voice. Up next on the Soft News Network, let's hear from our own wide-eyed wanderer, Howell Hugheser. Uh-oh. I've ambled and rambled across this country and never found a town I didn't like. Till now. And the name of that town is Springfield.

I was attacked, humiliated, and fed misleading gum. I give Springfield the lowest rating I've ever given a city, a six out of ten. I hope this bad publicity doesn't affect tourism. Who needs tourists? They never buy my maps to Star's homes anyway. Have you read them all? Okay, good. No, there was not an issue with the editing. That was the long pause. looking at Homer's 100-acre wood map, essentially, of the neighborhood. Is that funny timing, too, again, when you're working on Winnie the Pooh,

and it's like it even has the honey tree right in the middle of the map, right? Yes, yes. The honey tree is there. Only the Simpsons would dare to take on the controversy of same-sex marriage, and you will believe who's coming out. As far as two people love each other, I don't care whether they both have the same whole war. Part of a full hour New discretion by Ben, family guy and cute

of the hill are back to back. What is when powers? Activate. We got these in a box of the Frankenberry. In a special bonus block of comedy. It all starts at 766. But tonight. Welcome to the break, everybody.

It's Henry Gilbert, who just got ordained online so I could officiate over this break. And we thank you, the listener, for supporting us this week as we cover this eventful season 16 episode. there's something about marrying. We can only do this kind of work researching, looking back on, and explaining the context and history

of this 2005 episode with the support of folks like you at patreon.com slash talking Simpsons. Did you know that you could get an ad-free version of this podcast and you could have heard it earlier if you were a subscriber there? $5 and up subscribers get ad-free podcasts and that's just the beginning.

They also get a ton of bonus podcasts like each month we cover an episode of Futurama and an episode of King of the Hill just like this, but it's only for our listeners at patreon.com slash talking Simpsons. You get all of the gigantic back catalog too, if you signed up today for just five bucks a month, us covering hundreds of episodes combined of King of the Hill and Futurama. Plus, we've also covered every episode of The Critic,

every episode of Mission Hill, and many of our favorite episodes of Batman, the animated series. Check it all out for yourself at patreon.com slash Talking Simpsons. In the collections tab, you will see so much of what you'll see. are missing out on. But if you'd like a podcast as nice as having your photograph put on a mouse pad, you need to head up to the $10 a month level because that premium podcast we do each month is really like three extra podcasts.

That is the What a Cartoon movie podcast where we cover an animated feature film as in depth as an episode of The Simpsons, which means it's about four, five, or even six hours long of us covering an animated movie. Just last month at the end of May, we began our summer of Disney 2010s that you're going be hearing all summer long with 2011's winnie the poo a very interesting film that marked the final traditional 2D animated feature released by disney and this month if you sign up you'll hear us talk about wreck it ralph which has a ton of talent involved in it who worked on classic simpsons episodes including director rich more who directed marge versus the monorrel among many other classic episodes

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more time, head over to patreon.com slash Talking Simpsons to support this podcast. It's really great that, like, I think they paused on it for like two seconds longer than they usually would, just to make it extra clear of like, yeah, we were pausing for a while so you can read a sign gag. That's basically what we're doing here. And apparently he uses the video game website rating scale. Yes, yeah. That's right. He'd fit in on IGN for sure. Six to ten. Oh, man. That's score of six, yeah. Kitchen Wizard, not chicken wizard, kitchen wizard is in shock at seeing him go all the way to six.

We should point out we recorded like a three-hour episode before this, so we're kind of loopy. Well, also, you notice on the map, too, Isabella Rosalini lives in Springfield, distinct from her character, Astrid Weller, from Mom and Pop Art. I forgot they bothered giving her character a name. I thought of her as just Isabella Rosalini

since she just is that same character. But then this is where it really hit me of like, wait a minute. This is like the first act of Star is Burns. It's about the waning tourism in Springfield. You have a map to movie stars' homes and then a town meeting about how to drum up excitement and tourism in the town. But no one suggests changing Springfield to Seinfeld. If only Seinfeld wasn't taken off TV by that point.

Well, I mean, you know, the jokes would still work. But, yeah, I wonder if Al Jean knew like, oh, this is kind of similar to our first act. turn in a Star is Burns. Yeah, I guess he ran that episode, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he even just had like a rule of it, oh, 10 years later is fine. We can copy it then 10 years later. This is where right after Homer's map scene is the only deleted scene on the DVD and

it is entirely silent. So I'm not going to play the clip. But it's a good joke, but maybe it runs a little slow. After it, you do see in the broadcasted episode, Windows all boarded up and, you're and the movie theater closed and all that. But they had more bits of that of, there's a skeleton in the visitor center. The only business in town that is still open

is a store for buying boarding up supplies. That's good. It's a good. I like that joke. And then they also have a joke of a tumbleweed rolls through town all the way to the Springfield Airport. And at the Springfield Airport,

it does departures only because nobody's flying to Springfield. And then it leaves on a plane. Okay. These are good visual gags. I like these. I don't know why they cut it, especially when they say that, like,

the episode's running short, and they had to, like, add that joke of Blinky to the episode. That's funny because, like, that's a lot funnier than these suggestions that people are giving Quimby, which just feel kind of random to me, like gladiator fights,

giant rats. Giant, right. Yes, yeah, very random. They aren't as good as Seinfeld or the Lost Dutchman's mind. Those were better suggestions instead. It more feels like a comment. The best joke in that bit is just that Lisa cuts off jokes.

Yeah, I did like that. We didn't get to hear with the sea captain had in mind. He just sits down and defeat. He brought like a marlin or swordfish all the way there for his joke. I'm sure this is not intentional, but Lisa does feel like a good modern liberal on that, like, oh, these equal rights will make us big money. And also it's good. Rights are good. But first, money. Yes. Yeah. We're so used to it with the Democratic Party. And it still is the case of like, well, the business opportunities. And like, this is old news at this point. But like, I just saw one on blue sky the other day of people, quote, to dunking on a Democratic representative

with a plan of like lower taxes for cops everybody likes those guys well yeah I mean around this time we're hearing well many people advertising like the economic advantages of same sex marriage yeah yeah and that in general

queer people but especially like two men relationships were being you know talked up as like well hey you might find it like gross but did you know that men make more money than women and two men together have a lot of money to spend, they're good consumers and you want their money. And I mean, that is an extremely American thing of like, well, how do you sell people on

more rights or equality? Money. That's in it for me. Don't you know how good of consumers they are? And I mean, mainly it now turns into just like, ah, who cares about the money? It's pendulum swinging in between or it just shows the shallowness out if you sell people on that people are worthy of rights because of money, then they don't view that. is like their rights in particular as all that important. But this is where Lisa, though, it does do her job as a proper 2005 Democrat.

We need to bring tourism back to Springfield. As usual, I will open the floor to all crazy ideas that jump to people's minds. Strong a beer. Radiator fights. Poetry slam. Giant rats! I have a real suggestion? Yarr.

Why don't we legalize same-sex marriage? We can attract a growing... segment of the marriage market and strike a blow for civil rights. Yeah, them gay guys got lots of disposable income. I can serve fancy drinks and charge ten bucks a pop. What's in a martini? Gin and famuth. And that makes a what?

A martini. Never heard of it. But I'm still in favor of that same-sex marriage deal. Then it's settled. We'll legalize gay money. I mean gay marriage. I propose we also legalize gay funerals, Starting with this guy.

I'm not gay. Okay, now let's say I put a lean cuisine in a blender and I pour some beer on it. What do you call that? A lean cuisine? Wrong. Very strange joke. I do like the idea that a $10 drink is expensive.

I was like, oh, 2005. Oh, yes, yeah. Even in San Francisco, apparently a $10 drink back in 2005 was an expensive one. Like, I went to a baseball game and again this year and a, like, canned beer was $14. Sounds about right. Like, I do want to talk about, this episode has a very 2005, well-meaning, understanding of queerness.

And, of course, I'm the straight guy. Let me talk about this. But, please, Bob. That joke where Martin says, I'm nothing yet, it does strike me as like, this is kind of like a misunderstanding of, like, I guess, the queer identity. Because I was like, probably around this time, too. It's just like, well, there aren't queer kids. Like, basically, I guess it comes around when you're, like, we go through puberty, I guess. guess that's when it's your brain decides what you are. But then, you know, I read David Sedaris's

books because I was a good college liberal and I was like, oh wait, he was a gay little kid. There are gay children everywhere. Yes. Whether they, some kids, like even before they realize or have, you know, go through puberty, they still are going to be like, I don't want to play with other boys like how the other boys do. Like, you know, or I've seen these great jokes of, jokes that come from the pain of being bullied of like, how did my bullies know that I I was gay before I did. Like, how do they know how to treat me shitty because I was gay? Yeah, I don't expect Martin to fully understand his identity, even if he, that's presuming

he is gay and we're not really sure about that. But I feel like it is the show like kind of giving its perspective on things. I mean, not even every gay kid knows they're gay. Like, not every straight kid understands like what straight is and what that means. It feels to me like, oh, this is like our understanding of queerness 21 years ago. Yeah, like Martin doesn't understand himself yet or I'm nothing yet. It's the yet that it is Martin saying like, maybe I am gay, but he doesn't feel anything yet, I guess, is what they're saying.

But no, I think Martin, it's also an interesting joke they finally do with Martin after, you know, 16 years of jokes about the queen of the summertime and his Bart and I are friends. Yeah. I think it probably is still controversial to think like, oh, there are gay six-year-olds out there. Just like when I was six-year-old, I was like, this woman is pretty, this lady on TV is pretty, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, I mean on cartoon shows. shows like Craig of the Creek, which we've covered. Like, I know we chatted with one of the creators of the show about how, like, well, why on

these shows with, you know, these kids shows that nobody blinks an eye at having, like, a boy and a girl crush episode and they can cover that in like, you know, a chaste crush storyline. But then if it is about same-sex kids who have, like, adorable little crushes, then it's gross or it's weird or wrong. Like, why is it wrong? And if you investigate that, then like, well, yeah, it comes from like a bigoted place then.

The only thing that's wrong is that it's queer instead of straight. But, God, man, Martin, I think they're going to get him. It's like in the next five years after this is the joke of Martin fantasizing about being like a big, strong adult, and then he's like holding hands with a guy in it. I remember that. I forget exactly the episode, but that's like another, Martin is kind of gay jokes they do in the future. Well, I will say that if you're a YouTuber and you want a very achievable Simpsons food to make

on a video, you can make a lean cuisine very easy. Just pick whatever lean cuisine you want and then pour a beer on it. Both of these scenes with Mo and Mel, like, they're not that funny and it's weird to end the scene with them. It's ah. Yeah, it gets like a weird back and forth, like vaudeville

kind of thing they're doing where Mo forgets he's even asking about a martini. And then when he offers, like Mel offers up a joke suggestion, then it turns into a joke about writing jokes where he's like, nah, wrong. He's a bad collaborator in a joke. by just going like, no, not that. Well, Act 2 starts.

I like this song because it's riffing on two Harry Balafonte songs, Jamaica Farewell, and then it works in Deo because gayo, it's okay, oh, that's fine. This is very 2005 humor, though. The song is great, but the visuals are just like, isn't it funny? Wouldn't it be funny if gay men, like, kissed each other and we're in love? That's hilarious. Yes. What if two gay men were like in a boat?

I'm laughing. What if they were sitting on a bench kissing and an old lady? he liked it. That was the only thing that got a laugh at me is you think Mrs. Glick is going to be discussed, but she gives a big thumbs up for it's okay-o. It's a fun song. I wish, unfortunately the song is not on

Simpsons Testify, the last Simpsons album, and I check the wikis too and the credits for the episode. I don't believe the singer is anybody who is credited in the episode, so I don't know who the singer is to this song, unfortunately. And I guess they get

a lot more out of this joke in quotes, but it's like, what if a, get this, what if a man wore a wedding dress guys? You're going to see a lot of this, you're going to laugh every time. They're both wearing wedding dresses, but they have beards too. In general, a note about the gays they designed

of this is similar to the note I had in three gays of the condo, and this applies to the queer women in it too, is that for the gay man on the show, they are either skinnier bodybuilders while the lesbians are different levels of butch. Yes.

Yeah, this is, I mean, again, they mean well, and they're like, we love gay people. We want them to get married. But then, again, it's the idea like, it's funny to see gay men. Just the very idea is just hilarious, which was a very just common thought. If I'm out and I see two guys eating dinner together or whatever and they're clearly like a couple, I'm not like laughing. No. It's like, hey, there's other people here eating dinner. Okay, sure.

You know, in that regard, for me and my husband, one fun thing we like doing is when we're like on vacations or, or at. or at like going to the movies or whatever, like we will clock another couple and we're like, oh, you think that those are two guys, they're on a date. It's gotten to the point now in our game of like one of us,

you know, nods in the direct, we don't like point with our fingers, but we go like, but like there have been times now where like the couple will walk by us and then my husband will instantly turn to me with the knowing look like,

uh-huh, and we're like, yeah, yeah, we spotted others like us here. And then you say, hey, we noticed you at the goofy movie screening.

We like your vibe. You know, as we're both standing in line for the popcorn bucket of Max Goof, we exchanged DMs at that time, yes. It is fun. I mean, definitely in, believe it or not, in the theme park community, there are a lot of childless gay men who like going to theme parks and doing campy things out of you definitely can spot other theme park gays if you're on the lookout for sure. Well, they put the URL on the screen, which is Springfield is for gay lovers of marriage.com, which at one point was a real website to promote this episode. and I'm clicking on it now where will it take me it says redirecting perhaps nowhere

or perhaps to like identity theft central it's loading so I think it's just broken I tried it too it was just dead loading for me as well yeah yeah

no one's even squatting on this yeah but it's not even up for sale or at least it doesn't have a page of like you can buy it from like GoDaddy or whatever also to they it's not just a lack of body diversity but also like

I think every queer person gay lesbian in it is white I don't think they animated anybody who isn't white who is gay in this. Yeah, it's a very white show. And they really cover all the bases, or they try to, the 2005 bases where, we'll go over the scene, of course, but it's Marge versus Lovejoy. And at the time, we thought like, oh, we'll destroy the Bible with logic. But now it's like, that didn't work in the first place.

And now we have the Pope saying war is wrong. And J.D. Vance is like, I think maybe you should look at that again. Look at that Bible again. I know. Yes. I might know better about this thing, Pope. I just converted to Catholicism about eight years ago, but you know what? I'm pretty sure I know what this says.

To make me side with the Catholic Church is something. It's fucking crazy. The Catholic Church has not really changed positions on any of these major things. They are not pro-queer issues at all. Yeah, there's like where we still stand behind war being wrong. They see Palestinians as human beings, for instance, they may, or the Lebanese or other people. Yes. And again, to talk down to the Pope in your, again, it's like you agreed to the rulebook here. You don't have to be a Catholic. But if you're agreeing to be a Catholic, then the Pope knows more than you. That's part of agreeing to be a Catholic. Like you said, Bob, they are trying to be too nice to the opposing side here with Lovejoy. Like Lovejoy is trying to be objective, but saying like, but hey, I know what the Bible says and I don't got to marry you. Like, yeah. Like I said, we live through this era. It was part of like the atheist movement to and we thought we could out logic people. But it's like this is all. also a very tired comment, but I'll make it.

The Bible is just like a Rorschach test. You can get whatever you want out of it and then interpret it that way to suit whatever needs you want it to suit. That's just been the history of people using the Bible an incorrect way. Yes, yeah. I have found with like, again, as like an annoying atheist who did think I thought in 2005, oh, well, if you say the Bible is true for like this line in Leviticus about gay people, then what about this line about slavery in the Bible approving of it or any other thing?

and you think he got them, but guess what? Like, one, they don't believe in the Bible to the extent that, like, they'll believe you saying what the Bible says. And two, you're also like, some non-believer tells them what the Bible means. They don't listen to you. Like, they know you don't mean it either. Yeah, these are the people that now have elected the Antichrist. Also that. The most clearly defined Antichrist in modern history.

They're like, that's the guy. That's him. I mean, yes. As this episode promotes also the, I don't want to say promotes, but gives voice. the conservative view on it then of like, this makes marriage meaningless or it takes away the meaning of marriage. It's like the most divorced man

of the cheatingest man of all time who has never believed in marriage once is the president and represents that group. It's like, yeah, obviously it doesn't mean anything, but he made it meaningless, not same-sex marriages. And also the bit about, you know, oh, you'll force churches.

Like, they're having all the gay people walk up to the church to, demand or expect a wedding. Like that also fed is giving credence to the conservative fear of like they're going to force churches to respect a gay marriage. Like no, that also also like, oh, they're going to make me bake their gay wedding cake. There's somebody like bakery standoffs in this time period and beyond. No, and you still hear about that shit occasionally, though I will say like it seems

almost quaint to hear same-sex marriage complaints from. conservative shitheads because in America, because I feel like they've slightly given up on it to focus on a wedge issue that polls much better for them. Sadly, when it comes to queer stuff, unfortunately.

But yeah, no, even the Kim Davis thing started with her, like literal days after the Supreme Court ruling that legalized it, she refused to, in her government job, not at a church, but at her government job, to give a marriage

license to two men and saying it went against her religion. The two men sued her. And it's now 11 years later, she owes them $100,000 and still hasn't paid them because she is trying to just take it up to the Supreme Court. Yeah, boy, that's a name I haven't heard for a while. You just conjured an image in my head. I looked it up. I was like, oh, man, how do I remember what Kim Davis looks like? Because, and look, this is, I, it's not mean to just make fun of people for their looks, but the evil comes through in how she looks, how evil she does. You need a make-over of her honey. Very bad.

Very bad. I mean, too, like, when my husband was asking, like, wait, why is our marriage in trouble? Is this going to affect our thing? When I had to do research about it, it's like, it actually is fucking Kim Davis again. It's not even a new person. It's the same fucking piece of shit. But Lovejoy refuses to marry people because it'd be the same as putting a hamburger and a hot dog bun, which, hey, sounds like a chopped cheese to me.

That sounds like some good stuff. It's possible. This is where Marge, Marge is questioning the Bible a lot this season. She already was doing it when Ned was making his religious films. And now here she is getting in the face of Lovejoy, mainly to paint Marge as the good liberal voice in this to set her up to set her up. And it shows just like Lovejoy has no retort for Marge at a certain point. So he just starts bringing the church bell to shut her up. And again, in America, you can't make a church marriage.

you if they don't want to, nor I'm sure there are some crazy gay people out there who actually do think that it's worth going to a church. I think you're nuts if you do. But why would I ever want to get married in a church? I got married at City Hall or there's so many wonderful places to get married that are not churches.

I got married in some guy's backyard. Yeah. See? The cheap showiness of nature works again. This is where Quimby is upset by this because he's realizing like, oh, this is going to ruin our whole plan to get all this gay business, which they even have a sign up that says, you know, they have been respecting gay people since 2005.

I love it stated as 2005 in the episode. So this is where Homer realizes that he could make $200 per wedding and looking at them, the way all of the gay couples, the queer couples turn into each $100 bill walking down the street, is that's pretty funny. That's pretty funny. As is the cut to that up until one second ago, Homer was holding up a sign that says death before gay marriage and then puts it down.

Yeah, Homer was fiercely bigoted. I laughed at how hard they sold him out in this episode. Just like, man, what a despicable character. Yes, it is a great, ruthless joke, but also as far as Homer, who has learned a couple times the lesson to not be against gay people, he seemingly has forgotten that lesson again. Yeah. And you know, like I said earlier, you have to be very careful with this satire. And I guess in trying to be fair to the other side, even though they are making Homer the

actor in all of this. They are showing like, wow, look how easy it is to become a minister. Doesn't this cheapen the whole ceremony and the whole institution just a little bit? Yeah. Again, like on the commentary, they're saying, we want to present both sides, be fair. And I think this is the other side. It's like, well, of course, people can capitalize on this and they can weaken marriage as an institution. And this was not considered, again, that far right of an idea in 2005. And that they can get away with it more of having it be a, well, it's Homer. He does all of the worst decisions. So we're not saying everybody would do this, but if Homer did, then he would start the slippery slope very quickly.

That's what Homer the bad guy would do. But yes, let's hear Homer get ordained via the Internet. Now begins the long and spiritual journey to becoming an ordained minister. Name Homer Simpson. You are now an ordained minister. Now to answer all the pop-ups, who, we're talking about. Talking Moose wants my credit card number. That's only fair.

That feels like a very 2005 pop-ups joke, too, of a Talking Moose. Yeah, it'll be like, remortgage your house and just like an alien breakdancing. Oh, man, remember those, yes, they were like the parodies. I remember the ones that were like parodies of the iPod ads, of just the black cut-out silhouette dancing. Or like a woman doing like sit-up crunches and it's like, what state do you live in? Click here to see your interest rates. Oh, yeah. Homer's whole plan is to buy a 62-inch TV, which I want to.

if that was what a Simpsons writer had recently purchased. Which apparently cost like $15,000 in 2005. Now TV's never been flatter or cheaper. And you never even want to fix them. It's just like, oh, my 60-inch TV broke, trash. Burlington in the lake. I only had this through friends, but did you know anybody who did the Universal Life Church Online Ministry thing?

No, I assume that's what this is a parody of, though. Yes, I heard about it around this time because, at least in the United States, to be a wedding officiant of some level in a legal sense, you need to be a religious body needs to approve you. And yes, the Universal Life Church was the one my friends, at least one friend of mine used to be an officiant of a wedding. And it is a very quick online thing you fill out. And then they like email it to you and you can print it out of like,

okay, I am legally allowed to officiate a wedding. And I do like that it like undercuts the idea of religion, for sure of just like, oh, you need to go to seminary school for all this shit. It's like, it doesn't mean anything. Like, oh, I click three tabs on a web page. Now I'm a minister. But yes, I heard it from friends who would do it to, in backyard weddings even. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, get removed the institution of the church from this. Make it only like a government idea that is also very easy to do. And so Homer not only becomes an officiant, but also he builds a little church in his garage. Like he's starting a home business as Homer often loves to do. Yeah, it's a nice little setup. He has like taped up stained glass patterns to the inside. I think they don't say it out loud. I think though this works great as a plot of like,

why do all the gays go to Homer for it? It's like trashy and kitsy. I would think a lot of gays back then would have been like, oh, in some guy's garage, that sounds fun. Sure, it's like a wedding chapel kind of deal. You're right. The detail of the taped up stained glass pictures is a nice design. And so this is where Homer has a huge line of only white, only men and women.

Oh, we have Julio. You know, okay, I apologize to Julio. He's the one outlier, though. Yes, Julio gets married to a guy we have never heard of before or since. Thad. I check the wiki. Thad has never returned. Julio, clearly Julio very quickly made changes in his life after getting married to Thad.

This is where we also threw the VAT. the vows for Thad and Julio, we get Homer even weighing in on what in February of 2005 the current North American status of civil unions and gay marriage was. And do you,

Julio, take Thad to be your lawful wedded life partner in Massachusetts and Vermont, maybe Canada, stay out of Texas as long as you both are gay. I do. It brings me great joy to unite two such loving people,

Photo mouse pads for sale outback. And I should mention that I was going to put this in my notes, but I just thought of it. Family Guy did their gay marriage episode just a year later in April of 06. That's right. Isn't the name of the episode, like, you may now kiss the guy who receives? Yes. That's right. And this is about Brian's cousin Jasper.

Right, his gay cousin who lives in Hollywood. Man, I remember that now. Yes. This bit here of Homer, like, I know. that Julio and Thad do not kiss. They do not kiss at their wedding either. Hey, they gave us a parental advisory and let them kiss.

If we're at least doing that, like instead, Julio just accepts with like a hip twist. Like that's all his way of doing. And yes, as Homer says, Vermont had only had civil unions at the time. Massachusetts, it was legal. And at that time, Canada

had legalized it in seven out of ten provinces, but would if it, I think it's even 80R because Homer's mouth movements don't fit. This reflects that it had been okayed, but it wouldn't officially in Canada nationalize same-sex marriage until July 21st of 2005. Okay, so about 10 years ahead of America. Very much, though, yes. I mean, too, I think, if I remember reading about this at the time, around the same time that the first province in Canada, whichever that was, legalized same-sex marriage. It was around the same time that the Supreme Court overturned a sodomy as a law in

America. All of this makes me feel very old. It's like, I can't believe this is happening when I was an adult. I can't believe it was nationalized when I was in my 30s. I feel like these are stories they're going to be telling people like 40 years from now when you're a very old man. And one of those things are like, wait, people made this big a deal of it. It changed to nothing. Like I. That too. And I should also give, in the spirit of fairness, like the Simpsons would do, Definitely in the aughts, this was more of a center position of queer LGBTQ civil rights activists too. Like there were people more to the left who said like focusing on marriage equality was like too mainstreaming of a choice or, you know, it made being queer seem like too normal and boring. It also was seen as almost like sucking up to the mainstream of like, no, we want to be normal like you.

There were definitely queer people who weren't into so much energy into marriage equality as the focus. Yeah, I can see that, but also there's the issue of the rights you get as a married couple that, you know, you don't get just by living with another person. Yes, yeah. I think it was worth it personally, too, as somebody who has benefited from it. But you think it was worth it. I think it was. No, I know.

I say it was worth it. No, it was worth it. Yes. Thank you. I wish that it didn't slow down. after that or that Democrats or others in the mainstream treat is like, well, that's settled like cans dusted. And no other queer stuff has to be supported politically with as much energy as marriage equality was. So this is where Homer has seemingly married everybody in town who is same sex who wanted it,

which by my math is 73 couples. He said he almost has $14,800. It's another weirdly funny line where he's at least specific with his math. He's like, I'm only $200 short of $14,800. Though Homer doing 73 marriages, it's like, that's wild because in San Francisco, they did 4,000 marriage licenses in the month it was legal there. Though, I mean, San Francisco did have a much bigger gay population, sure. And so Homer now realizes, you know, he's out of Adam and Steve's and Adam and Eve's.

So who's he going to marry? He needs to turn people. This is where I do love the Lenny Carl line here, too. Yeah, you let them decide. Don't you push them? That made me think like, oh, Lenny and Carl will have to be

canonically gay. Eventually, they still aren't. They still aren't. I think Carl is a wife? At least a girlfriend. Yeah, I can't remember if he married her yet.

Also, they've done the radical thing of having like Carl being performed by and more written by black people instead of just a bunch of white people. Though, you know what, if it can happen for Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy,

I think it can happen for Lenny and Carl to be a canon ship. I root for him. Carl can be by. Lenny, I think it's just gay. Yeah. That's what I say.

For Carl. For Carl, yes. Also, isn't it strange that, like, there is no Smithers in this episode at all? I found that to be an odd removal of the character. I think they were kind of being a little, understandably cowardly about the whole situation because it's like he has been the gayest character on The Simpsons

since the beginning of the show. Arguably, like, season two was, like, the first gay joke about him. and to have him have no stance on this and no presence in the episode does feel like there was a choice made and they only wanted to really feature one of the gay characters. If we're going to deal with one of our closeted characters for this, maybe, hey, I'll give them a little credit. Maybe they thought, we'll save the Smithers coming out episode

for some other date. Why waste it on the Patty coming out episode? It could be that simple, but to not even have a joke one joke with Smithers is kind of surprising. Yeah, it does feel like an omission by choice to me. And now Homer is married so many gay people that when he learns that there is opposite-sex marriage, he thinks it's now fruity for a man to marry a woman.

What's it called when you're gay for a chick? A gay for a chick. Ooh, I'm straight as a $1 bill. And now this is where they go straight, too. Like you said, Homer is marrying all kinds of people together. I believe it would have appeared here in the episode, but it's over the credits, but Homer marries a bunch of people to inanimate objects or animals as well. Yeah, it's like, I think we need a line from Lisa here like, Dad, you can't do that.

Like, animals can't give consent. And incest is wrong. And he could be like, oh, Lisa, shut off. At least have Lisa say the good liberal things here. Yeah. Because, I mean, when viewed from a certain perspective, you could be like, oh, you know, Homer is just, he's cashing in on this, but now he's going too far. But you could sincerely believe this about gay marriage. Like, well, what's next?

And that was, you know, the talking point. Like, well, can a man marry a turtle? And I did clip a little bit out of it here, this important history for Cletus and Brandein here. Do you, Cleetus, take Brandein to be? Wait a minute. Are you two brother and sister? Wee's all kind of things. Wee's all kinds of thing.

And later, they'd be related in all kinds of certain ways, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean, before this, man, I think it's after this is a joke of like, you're the best mother, sister, and cousin I've ever had or something like that. And then in 2022, they give Brandean like a real episode, like not treating her like she has been every incest joke possible they've done with her before this. With this again, like I believe in satire and I love satire. I've written satire and I've really enjoyed it. But I feel like you have to be very careful with it, especially when it's for an ongoing

fight like this one. And what's interesting, though, is, like, Homer abusing his power doesn't really lead to any future problems. This could have been, like, a way to show, like, well, of course this is wrong, because, like, oh, Homer did this. He gets attention, and now, like, the gay people are mad at him. Like, you thought our union was the same as marrying a brother and sister. We're insulted by this.

Yeah, I mean, as far as, like, there is no voice for gay people as a group or a political gay organization's reaction to this. the only gay characters who get to talk is Julio's saying I do and then all the stuff Patty says Yeah with the religious aspect We have the back and forth between the two sides But with this one we don't

We just see the one side presented like sincerely With crazy circumstances of course It's the Simpsons and it's Homer But still like we needed the other If you're going to depict both sides They need to both be in the same room You know Yeah instead in the smart line scene that comes up

The two sides are Homer Who is fulfilling everything Lovejoy is worried is going to happen. Lovejoy then looking normal and Kent Brockman agreeing with him and also being written kind of normal for Kent Brockman instead of being as much of a comedy character either. Yeah, suddenly Lovejoy, he was very unreasonable, but now he's very reasonable. It's like in this show saying, okay, well, don't religious people kind of have a point about this? It feels like that's the messaging here.

Yes. Why do we listen to the argument as the show presented it in Homer versus Lovejoy? Reverend Simpson. Please, Kent, call me your holiness. I can't. I just can't. Homer, have we started down a slippery slope where marriage becomes so meaningless that anyone could marry anything? Oh, Kent. Not anything. It has to exist. Or does it? Well, call me old-fashioned, but I believe the marriage described in the Bible...

If you love the Bible so much, why don't you marry it? In fact, I now pronounce you in the Bible, man and wife. And you're the wife! You owe me $200 Homer, your impulsive marriages Are going to lead to a lot of divorces Which will lead to a lot more Impulsive marriages Which will put more green in the blue

The blue being my pants I'm sorry Homer But I'm going to have to leave you hanging there Like you said They give the slippery slope line to Kent Pretty much just There's not a joke to him saying a slippery slope There's no again

If you're going to represent both sides They need to be in the same room A part of the same conversation here Lovejoy just gets to say like, oh, if people can get married too quickly, we're going to increase the divorce rate, which is something that was claimed to be like a good evidence for the anti-gay marriage side. Yes, yeah. And same with like, I mean, just even endorsing like the church view on what marriage is. I mean, that was definitely on the opposite side, not being presented in this episode, was just saying like, well, but marriage may be something that is codified by a religious organization. but as a citizen in America, marriage is like a legal contract that is separate from any religion,

which is what people want. And muddying the waters by saying, this is about religion, completely like abstracts the entire argument of marriage equality. Yeah, absolutely. And then here The Simpsons is saying like, no, it's only about the religious version of it. And Christians, really, only that too. And also that, again, saying that it'll make marriage meaningless is like, Like a long time pedophile is president right now, I would say. Maybe that makes it important.

And a rapist. Well, I mean, it's all part of a rich tapestry. Yes. He can be so many things. Now, you know, that divorce rates thing, too, is interesting because I saw this in the news last year and I pulled it up in 2025. There actually was new academic research on comparative divorce rates among different types of couples, two men, two women, a man and a woman.

The sampling was five. same-sex marriages versus about 400,000 different sex couples, as they are described in it. And so here's an interesting thing. It said 41% of sapphic couples they studied had divorce compared to 27% of male couples and 22% of different sex couples. Came out that like it led to headlines of or a new stereotype I had seen in some gay online spaces of like, oh, lesbians get the most divorce of anybody. Why is that? And the jokes I had seen, which I would say border on sexist or are just sexist,

are just like, well, you know, women, they're too flighty and decide on getting married too quickly and then get out of the commitment just as fast. Unlike gay guys who stick around, if a gay man gets married, they do it after like being together longer and choosing to. Though a more positive reading on it I've seen also offered is that straight women comparatively are more societal, conditioned to stay in an unhappy relationship where in a two women relationship that either or both

are just like, oh, this isn't a good relationship. Let's get out of here. That makes sense. This is a tale of me being a little stinker, by the way. But someone in my class in college was getting married, and she wouldn't shut up about it. It was really annoying. She talked about it for like months and months and months.

And then like, I had to sit with her for some kind of function or some kind of like luncheon. And she was talking about her wedding again. And she's like, well, And we're choosing not to live with each other before the wedding because I heard people that live with each other before the wedding are more likely to get divorced. And I told her, it's not because they live together. It's like if you live together before you get married, you're more likely to be comfortable with the idea of divorce. And she didn't like me after that.

Now I wonder, is she still together with a husband or not? I'd like to know. I'd like to know. Oh, also I did see it offered like, well, you know, with queer men as well, they are more likely to be open in relationships. So cheating, leading to divorce is less likely. with gay men. That was another. These are all like versions of stereotypes, perhaps, too, in the queer community that I've seen. It was interesting to see what ideas led to like, but just to say statistically, no more or less, at the very least, of gay divorces averaged out than with different sex couples.

I like that term. Instead of straight or normal, just say like different sex couples. I like that too. Like, we get to Patty next. And here's the thing. I like that Patty's future. I love Patty and Selma. I think they kind of lost touch with these characters. In the genius, they did try to bring them back a little more often. But I recently had the pleasure of watching a fish called Selma at Simpsons Trivia recently and just falling back in love with that episode, realizing why they trust us so much to kind of just stick with Troy or stick with Selma. And in this case, I think we should have started the show with Patty. Like Patty has a secret. She doesn't want to tell Marge. We gradually learn more about this secret. Get a lot of fun Patty and Selma jokes. Not suddenly like dropping Patty in like 17 minutes into a 22. two-minute episode or however late she comes in. It feels rather late to me. We're deep in act, too. And I think that is partially at fault of trying to make it an event. Like, if you start with Patty, then you're not getting people to stick around through commercial breaks to see who's going to come out of the closet. Like, if you start with Patty, then you know it's her who's going to be the gay character. But that makes it a game instead of a story about the character. Like, that Palm Springs episode that

I really did enjoy from the most recent season, like, you start with Patty's and Selma's perspective. and them growing apart as people and like Patty fully embracing her queerness and like getting a cool lesbian side fade and moving to Palm Springs. That was much more about Patty as a character. And for as much as I loved the characters, they came from a place of hatred.

Yes. And it is, I won't say funny, interesting, that the reason Patty is gay, it's because it was a room full of straight writers thinking this hairy, gruff-voiced, hateful, ugly woman, well, of course she's a lesbian. And they ran from there.

So her being gay comes from an ugly place. Let's be fair. So I'm glad they were like trying to recover from that as we are getting less homophobic. I mean too, with Smithers, I also think it's slightly, it has similar beginnings of like, this is my own theory. But I do believe Burns was drawn the way he was partially to make fun of Barry Diller, who is an openly gay evil billionaire. And he had a lot of assistants, including Jeffrey Katzenberg. and that I think people like to say that joke that his assistants who are constantly trying to win his favor were also in love with him or in a sexual relationship with him. So it's kind of defamatory in a way, too, that Smithers is a gay character.

Yeah, yeah. With a long-running show like this, I do like that it's nice that eventually that they can be reclaimed or rehabilitated into just like a good queer representation instead of just something of a gimmick. Well, that's what I like about the Patty thing. They rehabilitated the character. She still is true to herself and like a very fun character who is like comfortable with herself. And same with Selman, even though she's not gay. This is a better technique than Apu no longer exists. Yes.

I feel like they should have done the same correction with Apu that they did with Patty. Like this started from a place that was kind of patronizing towards people of this, you know, heritage that came to this country for various reasons. Let's have a new take on this character, get a new voice. This is not the episode for that discussion, but I feel like that is an example of them not correcting in the right way, just removing the character and not acknowledging anything about it. Perhaps the lessons, if they learned lessons from the Apu debacle and their poor response to the

criticism, perhaps that led to them being better with non-Apoo characters later in fixing them. Maybe they felt the ship had sailed on Apu. Maybe the ship has sailed on him and there's really no fixing it now. Yeah, I feel like that's it for him. But I do appreciate these attempts, even though this episode, The Third Act stinks. I wish Patty was presented in a more thoughtful way. I like that this is at least a well-meaning attempt to say, let's figure this character out for this century.

And so here's the big moment that everybody was gambling on. Patty comes out to Marge. Oh, homie, I'm so proud of you. You stood up for people's right to express love in its most perfect form. A binding legal contract. Hey, saturated fats. I came to ask you a favor. Let me get my belt sand or maybe I can grind the ugly off your face.

Very funny. I wasn't joking. I'm getting married and I need you to perform this ceremony. You're getting married. Patty, that's wonderful. So tell, tell, who's a lucky man? What does he do? Let me guess. Does he work in customer support? You can guess all night and never get it. Her name's Veronica.

But Veronica's a girl's name. Did you know that? I'm marrying a woman. I'm gay. You're not disappointed, are you? Oh, no, no, no, no, I'm just surprised. Yeah, big surprise. Hey, Marge, here's another bomb. I like beer.

I like that Marge was more in denial of it to actually, she didn't know Patty was gay when Homer knew. It's a good idea. It's surprising. I think it's handled poorly. because it's more about like, oh, she never told me. I'm mad at her, not like, oh, I have to confront my own homophobia, which is not really the case here.

At least it's not really being presented in that way. I think they let you jump to a conclusion that Marge is shocked and doesn't like her sister being gay, but then later in the episode, she'll say to Homer, like, she told everybody but me first. Like, that's why she's hurt. Yeah. And then there's a joke in there that I don't like very much about.

It's like, oh, you know, the best form of love a binding legal contract. Well, that is very important for human rights, these contracts. It's like all of these rights you get as a married couple that you don't get if you're not a married couple, which are important. I know it's not the most important thing to have the government know you're in love, but still to participate in many different activities to see your spouse if they're in the hospital or something like that. Or in terms of like what happens when someone dies, like all of this stuff. That recognition is vital to rights. Same with like the stuff that it relates to immigration as well. There are many rights about it.

Like, I understand it's a funny line that March says, but yes, there are very real reasons why in a society you want to be married. The reason I am here in Vancouver is because of a marriage recognized by the Canadian government. Yes. And you had to put in a lot of work for that. We had to write like a fucking book about why we're really in love. With pictures. America wants similar stuff like that too, which. And I got in the very easy way.

So I can't complain too much. But it is funny to think about like how much that matters. that some government stooge had to read our love diary. Like, we met on this day and, oh, wasn't it wonderful? And here's an image. And then, like, here's an account of our entire relationship. I'm sure it was low on the list of things that people complained about in 2005 about gay marriage fears. I would bet on some level they were upset that, like, oh, wait, this could also,

gay American citizens could now get citizenship via marriage for their spouses, too. so it opens up more U.S. citizens, which obviously is a horrible thing to happen in America, to the same people who hate same-sex equality. I just want to know who reads those love diaries, and I wanted a review, honestly. It must just be like how you hand your teacher, like your essay, and they just scan it real quick,

like that looks like it's enough words. All right. Pass. Pass. Pass or fail. So we come back from commercial break, and this is where they're writing, not that Homer and P. Patty don't have sort of this relationship,

but this feels like it's from a 70 sitcom, or it's like they're writing scenes for like Maude arguing with Archie Bunker kind of scenes. Yes, except Maude gets to like burn Archie Bunker's eye with a lit cigarette. It's great. She first puts it out on his hand and then says, she warns him he'll be in his eye next time. And she means it.

We know she means. That's painful. Now we get a fun little montage. Hey, it's Al Jean Time. So it's music montage time. Set to Doris Days, whatever will be will be, parenthetical K-ser-a-sara. We had, let's twist again and then this. Yes, yeah. And you know what?

The Deo parody should kind of count too, I think. Yeah, I know. Yeah. You have to buy the rights for that. It's funny because I guess continuity alert, we're doing that. Patty and Selma are supposed to be much older than Marge. In this flashback where they're trying on the different clothes, they seem to be the same size

in age. You are right. Oh, I didn't get mad enough about that. You're right, yeah. We're both shaking our fists on camera here. Yeah, if you go back to Marge telling the story of how she got the easy bake oven. It seems pretty clear in that that Marge is like six, I would

put her at, and Patty and Selma are like 14 or 15. Yeah, there's at least like three or four flashbacks that show Patty and Selma are teenagers while Marge is like under 10. And when Marge is going to prom in the way we was, it sure looks like Patty and Selma are living at home in their like

late 20s as they begin their spinsterhood. As a joke, I remember when I first watched this and I did see this on premiere, I actually didn't see the next episode on Premiere. I think I was falling off on weekly viewings. I was working at Blockbuster Video a lot of Sunday nights in my defense.

But the third of this joke made me laugh out loud when I first saw it. Yeah, this is a good joke. There's one joke later that's very subtle that kills me. The joke set up is Marge being a straight little girl is doing this while Patty is doing this. So in the first case, Marge is trying on mommy's clothes. Meanwhile,

Patty is trying on like construction worker garb. That's like Marge is pinning up a David Cassidy poster while Patty is pinning up a Miss Hathaway poster, Ms. Hathaway. She wasn't a gay character on the show, of course, it was a 60s, but played by a famously gay actress. And she was, if you were watching it with any sort of gay dar on, you would flag Ms. Hathaway as a queer woman. Absolutely. Though it's extremely Al Jean era to be like, well, who's a lesbian I know?

Ms. Hathaway on the Beverly Hillbilly. So it's like, straight does this, gay does this. And the last joke is Marge is looking at a sleepless in Seattle poster at the movies, while Patty is making out with a woman. Yes. It hits you. It's such a great, like, slam. Like, it's a really, I laughed so hard at that because I was just, The Simpsons surprised me with a joke, like that,

which was happening less and less in season 16. And just, I thought it was going to be a gay movie poster. That also that Marge, right next to her, was Patty making out hardcore with another woman. And that Marge is still surprised now, as she remembers it, like, oh, yeah, I guess the signs were there. Yes. Marge is in a lot of denial. And Nancy Culp, you know what?

She actually, she passed away in 1991 and lived in Palm Springs for a lot of her life, too. Another Palm Springs connection here. Well, I always enjoyed her on the Beverly Hillbillies. Very fantastic comedic actress. Did not live to be in the movie, though. That's sad. It is too bad. Like, she apparently really loved her cigarettes.

I'm surprised, though, that they were able to make a Beverly Hillbillies reference and not have granny in it. They loved having granny jokes at this time. Yeah, yeah. If they could have, they would have. So now Marge That's where comes the opening clip I used in the episode of like Marge expressing out loud like

Boy I'd be a pretty big hypocrite If this made me uncomfortable If it's my own sister When I was being so pro gay marriage When it's everybody else Yeah yeah I think again it would have been a much more interesting story If Marge was dealing with internalized homophobia

brought up by like just the world she grew up in And like different values that were reinforced That she had no control over And you know from an outsider's perspective, she was okay with the idea, but then when it's so close to her, it does make her uncomfortable. And that Marge, just like you would imagine a parent,

many a parent of gay people or a relative of gay people, when somebody comes out to them, you see like their perception of what they thought reality was like shatter. Even if they are not homophobic, they can still have this like, oh, I thought you were going to get married to a woman. And I imagine the rest of your life was this life. And now when I hear this, I'm at least having to be like, oh, okay.

Like, I'm paraphrasing my mom's very positive and supportive reaction to it as well. Kind of like Marge being so innocent, she doesn't really know what gay is. Like with the Gore-Vidal joke in Summer 4'2, she thinks Lisa is just mistaken. Like, no, Lisa, boys kiss girls. Yes, yeah. I think even in that staying in the closet parade float joke, Marge thought it was cute and thought like, oh, maybe they'll marry each other. She liked it. Homer offers up a do not feed.

brown bag to cover Patty's ugly face here. But then he wants to smell the burgers on it, so he takes it back very quickly. So then we cut to dinner time, and this is reminding me a black widower of like, oh, the fiance's coming over and lets everybody dress up for it. We get a joke about Simpsons toys because Lisa is asking, why are we dressed in our Sunday Best outfits? And that was exactly what those toys were called. There was Sunday Best, Marge, Homer, Bard and Lisa dressed in their church clothes. That's great that they're using the toy turpets. terminology that she's like, why are we in Sunday Best Simpsons?

Which is, yes, that's so good. You know, Jack's Pacific, their toys are fine, but I missed the specificity of the playmates line from the early to late odds. There's some question if the Jack's toys are going to be sticking around. Like people are saying, it looks like the fifth wave or whatever the next wave was going to be, it would have been announced by now kind of thing. There's rumors of like, uh-oh, do they not sell as well? Are they pulling back on the support for it?

Well, we've got a movie coming up in a little over a year. They better hurry. Maybe they're at least waiting for demand to pop back up again with the Simpsons movie, so they're waiting out. So this is where Bart and Lisa get to find out about it too. And again, I think this is sort of giving a little credence to the anti-equality movement of like, I don't want to have to explain it to kids kind of thing. The Bart and Lisa take it very well. And Bart instead talks about how ugly Patty is and that it must be a reality show competition.

You know, weirdly enough, I'm looking at the Jack specific website. They're the current manufacturer of Simpson's toys, and they have Selma, but not Patty. Huh, that's strange. You're going to have one of them. Why not have the other? But they landed on Selma. Maybe it's homophobia. Oh, man.

Are they not making, now I'm wondering if they have a Smithers toy or not. I'm not seeing a Smithers. I just noted no Patty, but I'm not seeing a Smothers here. That is interesting. Boy, I mean, look, but why would they make one and not the other? If I was going to say, well, maybe the sales would be lower. It's like, well, but I honestly now think it could be, will Target stock a gay toy?

Yeah, yeah. They could be looking at the controversy of making a gay character. Things are in a different time now, unfortunately, where, yes, selling a gay toy in Target is bad again now, unfortunately. So this is where they also have a little joke at Fox's expense, which is fun, but it's mainly the thing every writer was scared of back then, which is reality is going to replace written work. They waste a lot of time on this joke where Bart has Fox on speed dial and then Homer pitches his reality show idea.

I wonder if they extended it just to fill time that it was like, it does feel too long of a joke. We get it pretty quickly. I was just reminded of this way of, you know, this era of the fear of the reality show replacing sitcoms, which I also had to. But the new season of the series, the comeback, the Lisa Kudrow series, I've been watching it. And there's an interesting thing where a character from the first season, I don't want to get too spoiler, I would have come back, but a character from the first season who didn't like the reality show

comes back on the show and returns, and he apologizes for how he acted in the first season that aired in 0405. And he goes by saying, like, I was so afraid of this reality bullshit, but honestly, I should have been more afraid of AI replacing me. Like, I'm sorry, I was so mean to you. We didn't know that reality shows were like the mini boss.

And now reality shows as threatened by the idea, of generative AI of it also just making like garbage and you don't need to film people in a reality setting? Could be. But yeah, Bart thinks that this whole situation is a reality show that's being filmed where somebody gets a million dollars to marry Patty, but then they have to spend the honeymoon in a box full of snakes. This is where then Homer gets made fun of by Bart by saying that like, oh, she didn't marry the first blimp that she met and first blimp to get her pregnant. And then Bart says, no, seriously, dad, I'm worried. and gets too real for Homer and he starts to strangle Bart. Yeah, more killing time before. I think they're just afraid of this idea that's arriving

and they have five minutes to work their way out of. If they engage too much with the gay stuff, it gets too political, perhaps, they think. I don't know. On a dark joke level, I like that Homer is strangling Bart and then makes Lisa strangle Bart in his place. Yeah, take over for me.

Hold my place. They look so sad as they do. The ADR adds them making joking noises, which fit nothing for their mouths, by the way. But this is where they meet the new lady in Patty's life, Veronica. I wonder if,

did they choose it because it sounds like Betty and Veronica, Patty and Veronica. Oh yeah, maybe, maybe. Could be. It fits with the childhoods of the writers who probably read a lot of Archie comics back in the day.

And, okay, there's a lot to go over here. All right. Veronica is not a trans woman. Veronica is a man, baby, and not in the Austin Power sense.

This is the reveal of this episode, by the way, is that Veronica is a man masquerading as a woman to dominate ladies golf. That is the story here. So you're not talking about a trans woman at all, which is, I guess they're out on the commentary in 2012. Like, well, you know, we can't be transphobic. This is not a trans woman. But, of course, they're trafficking in a lot of negative trans stereotypes that terrible, terrible people love to spew out on the internet that we've heard a billion times over and over again. And this is all based on a pro golfer, a trans woman named Mian Bagger. And she has not mentioned on the commentary, though I feel this is an important piece of the puzzle because she is a trans golfer who made a name for herself by being the first trans woman to play in a pro golf tournament.

This happened in very early 2004, so right before the episode was written. So obviously, they were thinking about this and the comedic potential. Of course, people lost their minds. And in 2004, the International Olympic Committee established new rules about trans. athletes. But briefly, the ALGP, Australian Ladies Professional Golf Association, had a rule that female athletes must have been assigned female at birth. And after a whole lot of pushback, this was formally removed in 2010. So this is based on something that was garnering a lot of controversy. Meanne Bagger was getting very famous in the late 90s and early 2000s because of her activities.

And I honestly think Bend Her, the Futurama episode, is largely inspired by her story. And I will say when it comes to things that are horrifyingly transphobic, Ben-Hur ended up being a lot less bad than we thought it was. And it helps that we have people on the scene saying, Bender, you shouldn't be doing this. Yes, I think that helped a lot more with Ben-Hur. Yes, I mean, the stuff with Bia and Bagger to learn about that. Like, if I had heard about her situation at the time and her career,

I had forgotten it. But, yes, you look back on it now, and it's like, she is a trailblazer of trans players in sports. And, like, very sadly, it also sets a pattern of, like, the LPGA as well, like, wanting to ban her because she was not assigned female at birth. And it started this whole thing. And the Simpsons are trafficking in that, too, of like, oh, well, a average male player can say they're a woman and lie and then start competing against women. And it is everything about how attacking at trans people today, very sadly. Yeah, and that was Australia.

In terms of the LPGA, the rule is that trans athletes cannot have experienced male puberty to be eligible. And weirdly enough, these regulations rolled out just as Donald Trump reentered office. Like, a lot of corporations are like, hey, you know what, let's show our true colors. Fuck all this. We never cared. Yeah. Fire every DEI person in charge of the DEI department. I'm just stealing a thing I heard on a recent choppo, but treating like a 1%-ish win of the popular.

vote is a mandate and that like, well, I guess America's just fully a Trump country now and we'll just go back on all this shit. Like, yeah, it's... But yeah, not to like be on the soapbox for too long, but yes, it's true. Veronica or Leslie, that's his real name, not a trans woman. This is a man. And they're right. They're just making jokes about a man doing this masquerade. But these are all of the talking points when bigots want to attack trans people. And it's like in a vacuum, yes, a man could masquerade as a woman and try to compete in sports. Yes, a man can masquerade as a woman and try to enter a woman's bathroom. These are things that could happen, just like anything could happen.

You know, like many possibilities can happen in this world of ours, but these should not be concerns at all. And what makes this episode not great is the fact that there are no other trans characters who live as women to say, like, that's not me and that's not who I am. They shouldn't be trafficking in these stereotypes to begin with, but we have no trans representation on The Simpsons. So to suddenly have a character like this show out of the same. of nowhere and reinforce all of these stereotypes, it sucks.

And this is right around the time, I think, like, maybe a month or a few weeks before the Mr. Garrison's Fancy New Bagina episode of South Park aired. And that one is, like, brutally transphobic. Like, they're depicting Mr. Garrison as a trans woman who wants to live as a woman, right? Yes, no. In that episode, it's, oh, man, yes. Mr. Garrison has a sex reassignment surgery in it, and they depict Miss Garrison as gross.

as they possibly can in the episode. And then they literally, in South Park style, they equate that the same doctor who did the surgery for Miss Garrison also will turn someone into a dolphin or turn Kyle into a black man. Yeah. Well, a lot of that, it was, oh, it's for the sake of sports. Yes, yes. It was also about sports too.

And then, I mean, in recent memory, they've done it again on South Park. This is not a South Park episode, but it's just like, man, guys, there was an episode where it's like, oh, a trans athlete, but what if she sounded like the macho man and dominated in sports? Like for these people, they cannot move past this, this idea that like, this is all a trick. These are not people who are living their truth

or anything like that. They are tricking us all to win trophies. These stands of like, oh, this is a trick. I've disguised myself and fooled all these people, which is what they present Leslie is doing in the guise of Veronica, which is not a trans identity for Leslie the man. But to say it is like,

a trick and the big reveal is that it's a trick. That is like literally the defense that people have when they attack a trans person, like physically is like I was tricked. It is definitely feeding into a dangerous viewpoint for sure. Yeah. And it's like they want to show both sides, but this episode does not believe trans women or women or that like that idea is even real because we're not shown that idea in any sense. So that's what makes it very offensive. And now it's like now we're in 2026 and it sucks. And this is all the right contumption.

about all maggie people can talk about because they're losing on every front. Well, they're winning, but they're gigantic losers. So it's like when you've got a horrible war that's failing, you just say, what about these men in women's sports? We don't like it. Do we? No, we don't like it. You get like cheap pop or whatever it's called in wrestling. Like red meat for your voters when you're losing everything. And I definitely feel like as a cis gay man, I also think that it is used as a wedge issue that can trick stupid gay guys, stupid cis gay people into, siding against their trans brothers and sisters and non-binaries because they're like, oh, well, I am one of the normal ones, though. Are they even positions like, I agree with you. These trans people, they're the bad ones. In like an attempt to be accepted more, it seems like, and it's just I don't think they understand or they are blind to that. The only reason this trans or a major reason why transports and things like that

are becoming a wedges to you is because gay marriage does. doesn't work as a wedge issue anymore, but the stats show them that currently trans issues do and can be used just the exact same homophobic agenda is also a transphobic agenda, too. Yeah, now it's just how bigotry always works. It's like, okay, now you're in the in group. Who's left to punch down on those people? Yes. You know, I'll save them for the end.

I did look up how some reviews back then addressed the twist ending. But yeah, I guess it is important to say up front that like, Veronica is not a trans woman in the show. Like that is not what she is in the reality. He, Leslie, is the reality of the show. Honestly, it could have been much worse because very common joke in comedies of this era and before. It's like the woman is revealed to have a penis. Everyone throws up.

And that's the joke. And that's in many cases like Ace Ventura, it's like this is a person living as a woman. This is not someone who puts on a woman costume to be a police officer and then lives life as a man outside of it. Everyone is vomiting at the very idea of, like, can you imagine this? So I'm happy, like, they've at least moved that far in 2005, where I'm sure it's happening in other comedies, but it's not happening on this episode. That's great. Oh, yeah, I mean, comedies we enjoy, like Wonder Shosen, has a very bad trans episode as well. Yeah, it is a sad fact of why, it's bad to remember things sometimes.

Well, so back to the episode, Lisa asks where they met, and she names a couple of stereotypical places where women meet women, apparently. Yeah, Ethiopian restaurant or alternative bookstore. Yes, which that's a good joke. And then Homer has another like good one-liner that, you know, this is going to be like, I should have a sound effect for this. I think Dana Gould pitched this joke, but I do think Data Gould pitch the joke of referencing an Ed Wood film as the joke. Yes, calling her Bride of the Monster. Yeah, she's like, oh, it's just like in a movie.

What movie, Bride of the Monster? It's the Ed Wood movie they did on Mystery Science Theater 3,000, classic as well, right? They did three of them on mystery science theater. Oh, okay. A Bride of the Monster, the sinister urge in the violent years. All amazing episodes. Right. Bright of the Monster was in front of my brain there because I think, too,

it's because it's the one, it had a big scene in the 1994 movie, Ed Wood. The rubber octopus scene is reenacted in it. And Dana Gould, big fan of Ed Wood, he interviewed our pal Will Sloan about his book, Ed Wood made in Hollywood, USA, which is still available, still a great book. So this is where we learned. No, it was at a women's golf event. This one's sponsored by Ritzbits, which

this feels like a fun, sneaky thing, because the Simpsons was working with Ritzbits when they wrote this. Oh, really? Okay. I have not had a Ritz Bits in a while. Those are like the little sandwich crackers, right? Yes, yeah. I want to say originally there's Ritz Cracker is just the cracker itself. And then Ritz Bits is where they joined together

to be a like, you know, cheese goo is between two smaller Ritzbitts sandwiches. Yeah, it's like a little salty Oreo. Savory Oreos, let's call them. Well, so then when the Simpsons got Ritzbits deal, they got a specialized thing only for them that launched in 2004, and there's an ad for it that I've occasionally dropped in

as the vintage ad, but I can't find the old commercial. It's a comic book guy gets tricked into trading a comic book for the Simpsons-branded Ritzpitz crackers, except they are gram-cracker's stuff. s'mores. So they are sweet ones. They basically are like smore inside of two little graham crackers with Simpson's faces on it. Looks like chemical slop. And the Simpsons, to me it reads like they're having a little fun with their actual sponsored advertising pal in Richbitt saying that they sponsored a lesbian golf tournament. That is cute. Also, I'll mention another thing that comes from real life. I learned this from watching the first season of the L Word. I did not know anything

about the Dynoshoor weekend. Have you heard of the club skirts Dinashore weekend? No, no. I know she was like, we covered Dinishore on something and there's a big tie to like ladies golf with her. Yeah, it has been a traditional like women's golf weekend that then it basically

becomes a huge event party for queer women non-binary femme people and it happens in Palm Springs like every year. It's in late September, early October. So this is like unspoken here is going and that that L Word episode

I saw in 2005 around the same time as this episode. So it's what I learned about it. Yeah, actually, it was Peewee's Playhouse Christmas special on the What a Cartoon movie podcast. We covered that on the Patreon. And she was a guest on that. She was the one who was boring Peewee with her singing of the 12 days of Christmas.

Ah, yes. Right, right. Boy, she loved having her name on queer related things. That's nice. The way the meat cute between Veronica and Selma is that she smashes Selma in the face with a golf club, which I don't know, pretty violent that she is knocked in conscious here. Now, are we to believe that Veronica, that Leslie is only Veronica while playing golf until she gets

with Patty and then has that identity the entire time as part of being with Patty? Well, I mean, part of why this episode's not very good, this part of it, is that we don't learn anything about this person outside of the fact he puts on this disguise to compete in golf. and I feel like Leslie lives as a man and does man things, but then he met had he as a woman, he's got to keep up the ruse. And I guess, again, you have more sympathy for this character because it was never supposed to be that much of a trick.

It's like, I genuinely love this woman, but the insane sitcom circumstances in which we fell in love, I have to keep up the disguise to be something I'm not. Unfortunately, that would call for them to have more introspection into a character they're not very interested in. Yeah, yeah. It's just like, oh, you're a bunch of lesbian stereotypes. That's great.

Yes. I also do think another reason I think they went with that choice, not in a transphobic direction, was just that they don't want to end an episode where Patty is married to a brand new character. And so, like, well, how do we get out of this? What's our way out of this? And so this is where, after Patty reveals

that she's wearing the three wood at all times to remember their first meeting, this is where she sees that Marge isn't as happy as she first seems to be. Marge, are you sure you're okay with this? Of course. Everyone should do whatever they want. Take a bear to church.

Read a book with your feet. Change your name to goopalglob. Oh, I get it. You act all liberal, but you can't handle it when your sister finds love in her own locker room. Marge, if you can find it in your heart to accept me for who I am, I would love to see you at the ceremony. If not, I'll see you at Homer's funeral.

It should be pretty soon. Got him. Uh-oh. Homer impels his hand with a knife off-screen. He heals very quickly from that, though, too. Yeah, I think we're talking about this earlier before the recording. They might have forgotten that Jacqueline Bouvier is still alive. Yes.

And someone reminded them, and they're like, oh, draw her into the background of the wedding then. Yes, that line of, like, it's what mom would want. It's like that definitely, if you are a first-time viewer or not an insane person like us, the way that is said would lead you to believe, oh, they're dead mother. they're assuming what mom would want because their mom is dead and they can't ask her. Like, that's what I think you're meant to assume from that line.

Meanwhile, by having that line, it made me think, oh, that would have been like a good scene, her coming out to her mother. What would that have been like? But nah, why have that? Why have a coming out scene with the mom? This all seems to indicate with Marge's funny line that Marge doesn't like the idea, not because of the secret that Patty kept from her, but because she is kind of homophobic here,

because her idea is like just, well, everyone can just do whatever crazy thing they want. don't care. Yes. I mean, I do agree with those things. Like, you change your name to Gubelglob. What's that fucking do to me? Like, nothing. Like, read a book with your feet. But Marge is more just making it as a point of like, no, there are rules that shouldn't be challenged in society. And this is one of them. Like, she is taking a conservative stance here. I mean, I do like that Patty actually does get, like, you act all liberal, but you can't handle this. That's a nice, like, telloff to Marge as a phony liberal. I kind of like that. Yeah. Homer, meanwhile, heals very quick.

which also then this bit of like Homer officiating Patty's wedding, I feel like there could be more character interaction there too of Patty versus Homer but also her needing Homer in the story. That could be something that's not really a thing. There's not enough time. Whenever I want them to contribute more to this story, it's like let's cut away to disco stew or grandpa. Yes.

Yes. Grandpa gets way more lines in this episode than the mother of the bride. Yeah, there's a joke here where he's like, oh, it's against nature, but it's only because there's a cash bar, not an open bar. Oh, and you know what, too? It is the important plot bit there that, like, they have not had a, they have only been kissing and are saving everything else for the wedding night. They have seemingly not seen one another naked or anything like that.

That is why Patty can be surprised by this later. I mean, this also plays around a little bit with just, what was in like 10% of all Jerry Springer episodes, I feel like were this as well. Oh, it's like. your partner has different genitals than you assumed? Yes, yeah. Like, I remember seeing that so many times on the talk soup clips of Jerry Springer of like, that was the joke on family guy when they played Jerry Springer.

Like, you know, my girlfriend isn't supposed to have no penis was what a character says when he's trying to watch Frazier. That was the title of the episode. And the running gag on Talk Soup, I remember with Jerry Springer would just like, how do these guys say they have had sex? People on Jerry Springer were fake, that's why. But the people on the show would say, no, I've had sex with this person, but I didn't notice they had a penis type jokes in there. Yeah, I just, man, it's hard to talk about this.

It's a bummer. Yeah, it's a real bummer. Again, like, I brought up examples where it could have been worse. Yeah. I'm glad it's not because I haven't seen this one in a while and I had a much worse image of it in my head. You know, just because I'm just like imagining, what were they talking about in 2005? So I wish it wasn't in this state, but then I think of things that are much worse. And I'm like, okay, you don't get a pass, but, you know, points for trying.

Kind of. Watching 30 seconds of that South Park episode did give me proper context. Yes. Just watch what aired like a month later on South Park. This episode feels like, oh, it's like it was made today. And Al Jada, the commentary, misremembers. He thinks that Patty is wearing a tuxedo like Ellen DeGeneres's wedding outfit. No, my belief is he's getting it mixed up with, if you look up what Ellen DeGeneres wore to the 1999 Oscars when she went there with Anne Hache,

which was all the news of like, oh, Ellen and Anne Hache, that's crazy. She is wearing a very similar outfit to this of like black shirt with white tuxedo on it. That was big news at the time. Now, of course, and Hache no longer with us. Ellen, quite a conservative person. Enemy of humanity, Ellen DeGeneres. It's not so nice now, are you? You know what's saying how things could have been worse?

I'm glad they at least have this scene that addresses, hey, what does Selma feel about? Patty getting married. Yeah, yeah, I do like this bond between them being expressed because I was worried they were going to forget about Selma. So, want to do a jigsaw puzzle tonight? Selma, I'm getting married in an hour. I know, I know.

I'm just having trouble getting used to the idea of being alone. Don't lay that on me. You got married three times. Actually, four. You see, last week... Disco stew just got an annulment from John Paul, too.

Book it down. Selma will always be there for each other. I don't know about Marge, though. If she doesn't show up today, I have no non-identical sister. Hey, look at this. It's The Simpsons again, referencing the jazz singer with I Have No Son. The Neil Diamond version.

Yes. Specifically, from the 70s? Yeah, yeah. That was more directly parodied in the Krusty's Jewish episode, Like father like clown. Yeah. This made for TV version, I believe, that they were obsessed with. Maybe it wasn't made for TV.

Got theatrical. No, it was a theatrical release. Yeah, 1980. That's the one they're referencing here. It's so 70s, it came out in 1980s, right? The last gasp of the 70s coming out there, yes. And, hey, John Paul 2 was about to die in April. So Stu asked just in time.

Dang, wow. Again, gambling on these old people jokes, but they got away with it. In fact, the first article I wrote for my comedy, column in my college paper was about the new pope. Wow, man, and that was the Hitler Youth Pope, right? Ratzinger, yes. Who also quit being the Pope, right? Like, he retired, didn't he?

He got bored. He didn't even die in office. I swear, you like, in office. Well, whatever. If you sign up to be the Pope, that's till death, baby. Like, you don't get to retire from being Pope. I thought, you know what? I don't keep track of popes anymore, because John Paul was Pope for, like, a very long time.

And then we got a bunch of other popes afterwards. If I'm remembering Pope's right, it was John Paul, Bratzinger, then the dude who died last year from meeting J.D. Vance. And now Chicago Pope. Chicago Pope, yeah. The first American Pope, who rightly hates America, as he should. Also talking about history here, got to say they forgot a one joke, one-line marriage of Selma.

When they say three times and then, no, it's four, it should be four times, no, it's five. Is it a poo? It's Hutz in the Apu episode. It is so tossed off so quickly, but when they're offering her to marry Apu to get him citizenship, she then says, it's already bad enough that my name is, Tuilliger Bouvier,

McClure Buvier, Hutz Bouvier. I don't want to add Naha'HSA Pima whatever to it. Yes, she rejected marrying Apu, right. But it does mean she married Hutz. Now, does Distico Stoo, it being annulled?

Does that count it as not a marriage? Because, like, if somebody, Divorce is different than an ailment, I believe, in marriages, right? I think it means it's been a race from existence. And then she will marry Abe Simpson in two years, so that's coming. Look forward to that. Oh, God, that episode.

Man, that's a rough one. We'll get to it. And also, I forgot that she has a wedding-like ceremony with Fat Tony in season 22, but it actually isn't a marriage. Hmm. Okay. I don't want to spoil that episode, but it's why Fat Tony is an asterisk on the Who Selma has married list of characters. And really, it should be Fit Tony anyways, who you're talking about when you're talking about.

Because obviously it's after Fit Tony became Fat Tony. We all, yes. I refuse to acknowledge that, but it happened. And so Selma, I also like that Patty does have a comeback to Selma of like, why are you acting like I'm abandoning you? You've abandoned me every time you got married. But meanwhile, Patty already chose not being married over like Skinner over being with their sister. Yeah. The fish called Selma, I believe there's a scene between them and Salma's just like,

just tell me what I want to hear. And Patty says, I'm dying of jealousy. Thanks. And so we cut to Homer. He is apologizing and also hoping for the Lord's blessing, sanctifying the marriage, which is, I guess it's typical Homer comedy of he knows it's blasphemous, but also wants God's help in doing it, I think. And also this is where we get images of Homer kissing himself. Yeah, I seen this all over the place. Yes. I've seen it almost as much as, you know, it's on one of the Simpsons wikis where they always indicate non-canonical parts of a page with Homer imagining Marge and Lindsay Nagel making out. I see that one too as like, this doesn't count section of this really could be their way to get away with two men kissing on the screen by making it a joke

with two homers. I'm sure Fox said two men cannot kiss on your show. It's only if Homer is kissing himself in a scene. Again, at this time, they were much more approving of women kissing women. When I say they, I mean, censors of American network television, they were more quick to approve a woman kissing a woman on television than they were a man kissing a man and meeting it. Not a comedy kiss between straight guys, but an actual like romantic kiss between two men. Yeah, outside of Mission Hill, this is probably the most extended makeout scene between two men to date on broadcast TV up to this point. For sure, yeah. Meanwhile, like

the O.C., another fellow Fox show from this time, or Allie McBeal, both promoted like, ooh, this is the episode where two women kiss. Ooh, like, they made it a promotion as opposed to hiding it when it's two men kissing. That was a little, you know, a little bug bear I had as a

gay guy from my own position on that. So this is where Marge says out loud what her problem is where, which was not very clear in previous scenes, that it's like, no, she's just mad Patty didn't tell her, not that she's like homophobic. And so is where Marge

accidentally transvestigates. Sorry, I ain't even saying that word. No, no, I'm shaking my head because I'm just like, well, this is what people do. They're peeking in the restrooms and they're looking for Adams Apples and stuff. This is why this, no, if it was ever funny, but now it's especially ugly because people are hurt because of things like this. I also think another thing that makes this like, the way I'll say that perhaps it is accidental is they always pull things from

movies or Al Jean loves pulling scenes from movies and recreating them as like a joke. This is how one of the kids discovers Mrs. Doubtfire is not Mrs. Doubtfire in the movie, is seeing her peeing standing up. Yes. And then it's an over-the-top gag. It's like, oh my God, it's a smoking gun, but then Leslie is shaving while singing, dude looks like a lady. Which was into the commercials for Mrs. Doubtfire, I should say too. Yeah. And the fact that like, man, the fact that Marge like rebels in this, it makes you really hate Marge in a way that I don't think is intentional. Yeah, her little one-liner

looks like Patty is going to get something she didn't register for. And she's just going to let this happen. Like, she's treating it as a joke, not as a thing Patty, like, might want to know beforehand. And media sources, at least like queer media sources, did call this out as especially

ugly. I have a quote, well, not a quote, but just the title of an article from 2005. It's written by Glad Entertainment Media Director Damon Romine, or Romine, I'm not sure how you say his name. But the article called Is Trans the New Punchline? And it also calls out the Mr. Garrison episode that aired shortly afterwards. And again, that makes this one seem marginally less hateful.

Okay, Bob, I'm glad you brought that up. I had that too. I read it. And when I read it, I remembered reading it when it was new where I was like, oh, yeah, wait, this is ringing bells for me. Like that, the Glad Entertainment Media Director, I believe a cis man. I went to his LinkedIn. I believe it to be a cis gay man. But like in the article, it's very interesting because he actually.

sounds like he did something that many of us, and I say myself too, weren't doing then, which was listening to what a trans person tells them is gross about a scene or just listening to a trans person. Like he frames it as at the start. Oh, a trans person actually had to explain to me why this was gross. Right. Well, I mean, here's the thing. We can be kind to our past selves because like where was there a trans person in Orange Park, Florida or Youngstown, Ohio? They were all terrified. Yes, yes, exactly. They're not going to fall for the trap. Like, oh, a straight person wants to talk to me. Good. Yes, exactly, yes. Or they're, you know, I've seen this reference to of like, oh, why are there so many more trans people now is probably they're being indoctrinated or whatever when it's more likely the reverse of that people feel more comfortable being themselves and obviously are coming out or at least have more comfortable places to be themselves. And obviously the conservatives in America wants to make that not to the case anymore. Oh, yeah. That's why like they don't want straight people. to have empathy for them, for the trans people

by meeting them and talking to them. So they're like, oh, you guys can hide. Just hide your identities. It's like when I was growing up, I was like a teenager. And I thought, I'll probably never meet a gay person.

It's probably not going to happen. And then it's like, well, look at me now. I didn't meet any trans people I was aware of until I worked at a video store in Berkeley, California. It was late 2007 or early 2008 when I, like, met a trans co-worker who, you know, I was like, I'm gay. You're trans. We know stuff.

I was like I learned a lot from them. And then a second trans, like the first non-binary person I worked with. And I was like, I was like, I didn't get to that either as well. And so in here, like I had to move to Berkeley, California because where people felt a lot happier and open with, you know, being themselves in public. Which is why when I lived in Ohio, I'm like, we're all the gay people. But we aren't, you know, members of glad, an actual like queer LGBTQ political organization. Yeah, which they were better informed. When I was reading it, I was like, oh, this actually reads like a modern view on this,

and it shows that some people did know, we're noticing this stuff. Like, I did get a little bit from it here. Like, second, the reveal of Veronica reinforces a dangerous myth that transgender people are trying to deceive or trick us. When Marge dramatically ripped away Veronica's choker to reveal a bulging Adam's apple, it seemed funny. But in real life, such revelations are often followed by terrible violence. It's no joke.

Meanwhile, I read the after-Ellen review of this from February 22nd, and this is all that is said in regards to that. The Simpsons is in top form. It still rains as the funniest, brash is fast-paced half-hour you'll see on television, and then says, Unfortunately, Patty discovers her locker-room lover, Veronica, is actually a man and calls off the wedding.

That's all the reference to Veronica as a character or plot device. Yeah. Well, I can just give my perspective as somebody who felt progressive for 2005, but actually didn't know any queer or trans people or really understand the trans identity at all. Like many of us did not understand back in the day. I understood like, okay, yeah, gay marriage, gay people, great. I didn't really know about trans people outside of jokes about them.

But when I saw this episode and I saw the South Park episode, I thought like, this is a really weird thing to be hung up on. And it kind of makes me uncomfortable. Like, I didn't have anyone to talk to. I didn't have any resources to, like, read more about, like, trans people. But I thought, like, it's weird to be hung up on this. And I kind of carried that with me until I like learn more. And I realized like, oh, this inkling was correct.

So I'm glad I had the inkling. But I understand like if you were living in this time period and you had just like complete ignorance that was like institutionalized. Like we want you to be ignorant. Don't learn about these people. I understand that you can have a different opinion in 2005. Yes. We don't want to beat ourselves up too much or any past self. If you're ready to learn, which we still should be as people to want to learn and listen to the people who are, you know, suffering.

under these things right now, these political situations and threats and all that. Like, part of that is being ready to listen and believe other people when they say, like, well, actually, I feel this way about it. And it did make me happy to read that glad piece that at least somebody in 2005 was listening to people like, oh, you know what, this actually is kind of fucked up. So, yes, this is where Homer is, well, you know, I just hear it as Homer begins the ceremony. Queerly, beloved, we're here to join Veronica and Patty in matrimony. But the news isn't all good.

They've written their own vows. Patty? Veronica, in you I have found a soulmate. You are the perfect woman for me. Truthful, honest, hiding nothing. At last, I have found the yin to my yin. If anyone knows the reason why these two should not be joined, let them speak now or forever hold their peace.

No, I can't let this happen. I know it. You think everyone in the world should have a big, dumb man like you. People, please, can we wrap this up? It's going to rain and I've got to get the bikes in here. Patty, it's not what you think. Veronica is a man. Look at the size of that atom's apple.

They admit on the commentary, too, another thing that makes it weird is they never draw Adams apples on basically any Simpsons character ever. That's why when she shows up, she's wearing, like, a turtleneck. And when she's playing golf in the flashback, she has like an ascot or a neckerchief tied around her neck. Which, again, too, it's like the Adams Apple thing is like that one of specific like gross attacks on, it's, you know, you know. Women can also have prominent Adams apples too, which is why, I mean, if you want to go down this road, you shouldn't, but that's not the smoking gun you're looking for. I have also, again, saying of things I've seen trans people point out is that, When people start to say, questioning if someone looks enough like a woman to be in a female space, like a bathroom or a locker room, then often it ends up attacking cis women who are not gender conforming,

who are like cis women get thrown out of locker rooms or bathrooms because they look trans in quotes to people who, then it just turns into a new way of judging how a woman looks except from like other women in a locker room. in a way that could potentially threaten this person's life. Yes, yeah. So this turn here, like, of how everybody reacts, it does seem like the side of the reception that isn't patties. It is like sideshow Mel and then a bunch of people drawn to look like lesbian. So I assume it's like other female golfers that know Leslie as Veronica.

Yeah, they said, like, well, we need to have some familiar characters here. I like that Skinner's there. That's a nice bit of history. He didn't have line. He and Patty got together back in the day. That was the last time she gave heterosexuality a shot. And also that Selma is there with Jub job. That's nice too.

We did joke before I end of like, did Julie Kavana just say, I don't want to do any lines as Marge's mom. Don't write any. That or they forgot she wasn't dead. It took one of the animators to be like, well, why isn't Marge's mom in the stage direction? I'll just draw her in.

Obviously, she'd be there. Let's hear Leslie come clean with Patty. Veronica, how could you? Patty, I love you. But long before we met, I disguised myself as a woman and lied my way onto the LPGA tour. I can see why you lied to other golfers, Caddy's fans, and officials. But how could you lie to me?

And the sponsors? Because you fell in love with me as a woman, and I didn't want to lose you. But now I'm asking you, not as Veronica, but as the man I am, Leslie Robin Swisher. Patty? Will you marry the real me? Hell no. I like girls.

Okay, I want to say from a 2005 memories I have. Okay. I remember feeling positive on this in that it was, this seemed like a potential way in story to put Patty back in the closet, that she could be like, oh, actually, I did fall in love of the man, and maybe I do like Ben. In the language of the era, this is a phase or something. Who knows?

They were not recognized, like, bisexuality in any non-cometic way. Oh, certainly not. No. But yes, but her pronouncement of hell no, I like girls was seen as like, oh, a refutation of we're not going to reset the character or put her back in the closet that Patty from going forward is gay and will be a gay character on the show. Like, maybe that's also why I pasted over in my memories of this episode of like, yeah, it was nice.

They made it that Patty was gay and say didn't undo it at the end of the episode. That's good. This part, I think it's still nice. Especially for 2005 to have this character say this. She doesn't actually get to have a wife or a girlfriend. She gets to go home with her sister. But still, no, there's a future for her. I think what, it took at least 10 more years for them to give Patty a regular girlfriend or an occasional regular girlfriend.

Yeah, with something like that. And so, yes, after that is said, Veronica vanishes and it teleports away and has never seen again. Or Leslie, I should say. Sorry. To say like I lied and disguised myself. Like that also is, yeah. Yeah. But like you said, but Leslie is saying as the man I am. Like Leslie is not saying I am a trans woman or accept me as a woman. Leslie is saying, I am a man. Don't you want to be with me a man? Yeah. Like again, giving this episode a few points for not being as worse as it could have been. But this could have been her saying, well, yes, Patty, I was born a man. I'm in love with you and I want you to accept me and then everyone throws up. It's a traditional early odds. trans panic joke. They don't do that. And if Veronica did say yes, I was a sign male of birth, but I'm a woman now, if Patty replied to that with hell no, I like girls,

they can feel much more transphobic. Yeah. In that context. So everybody claps. Leslie vanishes. And Marge gets to wrap things up in a sweet way that then lets Patty and Selma have the last moment. Marge, thank you for accepting me for who I am. Well, I've learned a lesson.

Just because you're a lesbian, it doesn't make you less of a being. Patty, I admire your decision. It takes courage to follow your heart and walk out in a non-refundable wedding ceremony. So I'm going to waive the rose pedal removal fee and prorate the cake handling surcharge. Thanks. Well, that's the end of Dad's wedding business. Why? Hey, twisted sister.

You still have that jigsaw puzzle? There never was a jigsaw puzzle. I was trying to make you jealous. Hey, want to go to the airport and leave a bag unattended? It is a good way to meet security personnel. Let's go. The line with Bart is saying, why is my favorite line of the episode. It is really great.

Yes. Yes. Just, I mean, not to over explain the joke. We're in like our three of our recording here. But Lisa trying to reestablish the status quo. Bart's like, what are you talking about? Because unlike in real life, gay marriage was not shut down. Homer was not discreet.

No one tore up his certificate of authenticity when it comes to being this ordained minister. He should just continue doing this and making a lot of money. Honestly, I would have been too depressed in 2005 if reality came in here, but they could have done the thing that happened in real life with San Francisco of the state that Springfield is in, delegitimizes all of the gay marriage that happened and takes away the licenses. They could have done that. I mean, naturally, we know in the next episode, Homer will not be in a lot. or gain minister anymore, but I like that the characters are acknowledging the fact that, like, well,

this all has to stop. Yes. Yeah. And that Lisa knows it's the end of the episode, but Bart is confused. Like, why? Why would this happen? I do also like the line of, like, pro-rate the cake handling surcharge is a good line, too. A bit of a joke about the predatory wedding industry, which is why I had a non-traditional

wedding. I'm not paying those vultures. Oh, yeah. Hey, these wedding jokes here reminded me of like, oh, yeah. I don't even think I paid $200 to get married in these. San Francisco City Hall, which is where, like, we chose that, well, partially getting married in City Hall is a super saver option. But as well, the history of it being one where Harvey Milk served and was assassinated and also being the home of all of the same-sex marriages that happened

in 2004, that was key part, another appeal for my husband and I to get married at San Francisco City Hall. There's nothing wrong with the City Hall marriage. My mom has been married to my stepdad for 35 years. And they got married. at City Hall. Though we also did not write our own vows, I believe you were present for this. We got a sign. I'll say Huell Houser type public servant who officiated the wedding, and it was very nice. And he just had us repeat after him what he probably is done with a lot of weddings. It was very nice. I got married under a tarp in the pouring rain during COVID lockdown, and the amount of people there were the people that had to be there by will of the state as witnesses. But you know,

you made up for it with a very nice reception later. That was very very very. very nice that I did get to a 10. And to all you listeners, I'm sorry, the invitation got lost in the mail. I don't know what to say. Where were you in 2022? I needed you. Oh, you know, one other nice gay thing I remember of getting married at the city hall was. Like, so me and Darren got married there and then we leave.

And I think for some process reason, we had to come back like the next day to pick something up or like, I forget exactly why. When we came back there, we passed by like two women and then another group of two women and with both of them like, oh, are you getting married too? Oh, that's great. And it was just this nice moment of like, you know, gay unity, of queer unity of meeting other same-sex couples who were getting married there. That felt really nice. It was a nice day.

That's my gay marriage story there. I think Patty and Selma walking away like that, too. Does it feel like it's a reference to something? I can't place it. It just feels like a generic walking into the sunset kind of ending. The music, I can't tell what the music wants me to feel either in it. I mean, I'm happy that, hey, you know what, Patty still has Selma. Isn't that nice kind of feeling?

I like them as a couple, platonic couple. Yes. Sibling couple. There's a deleted scene over the credits too, which is more of the slippery slope stuff. Oh, yeah. Like, sea captain is marrying the mermaid that's attached to a ship.

Comic book guy is marrying a standee of Bubarella. And on the last viewing, I was like, oh, Ralph wants to marry a real tiger, then we'll kill him. Maybe it's Drederick Tatum's tiger. Who knows? But yes, it is, even to animate that, it's like, yep, the slippery slope. Like, they show more slippery slope wedding.

then they do gay weddings. That is true. That is true. And, okay, this is probably the ninth time this has happened, but Marcia Wallace is credited, and there are no Mrs. Craboppel scene. So I'm guessing it's a deleted scene that was not included. It's something that they never animated but recorded, but she is obligated to have her name included in the credits,

and this has happened a number of times so far in our exploration of the show. The pay comes in the same for Marshall Wallace, which that's nice for her, but I would assume it pays the same. But yeah, it wasn't the only deleted scene. on the disc was the entirely silent one. So if they animated it, it's not included in any of the deleted contents on the disc. I feel like Mrs. Krabopal would have had something funny to say about marriage as well in this episode.

Maybe she would have went gay. Who knows? She's done with men. What about women? I feel like that would be the 2005 version of that joke. I like to imagine that, yeah, Mrs. Kraboppel, like, could be easily canonically by. I would not be shocked at that at all. But boy, what the 2005 gay adventure this was for us?

Yeah, they thought they meant well, in some ways they did, but they got a whole lot of stuff wrong. And I'm glad it's no longer 2005, ultimately. And I do also want to say that we're like an hour five of recording. We're trying to be very precise with our language and our thoughts. So if we strayed a little bit or we're a little confusing, we apologize. So I'm just putting that out there because I'm very tired right now. Yes, please do us that service. We did so much research and tried our best.

But if we misspoke on anything here, feel free to let us know kindly in the comments, perhaps. I say, for once, give a white stray. Guy a chance. Yes, yes. And you know what, Siski, man, we don't have it too easy either. No, no. Well, thanks everybody for listening to this long episode of Talking Simpsons. And if you want to find us online and get all these episodes ad free.

And in advance, go to patreon.com slash Talking Simpsons. Sign up there for five bucks. You'll get just that, but also nine years worth of exclusive content on Patreon. Those are all full-length episodes. I believe there's over 202 date. And we cover shows like Batman, the animated series, The Critic, Mission Hill, Futurama, and King of the Hill. And also at that level, you get an episode of both Talking Futurama and Talking to the Hill every month. That's a lot for just five bucks a month at patreon.com slash Talking Simpsons.

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Simpsons. And I've been one of your host, Bob Mackie. You can find me on Letterbox and Blue Sky, many other places as Bob Servo. My other podcast, by the way, is called Retronauts. That is a classic gaming podcast, all about old video games. You can find that wherever you find podcast or go to patreon.com slash Retronauts and sign up there for a bunch of bonus stuff too. And Henry, how about you? You can find me on Blue Sky and on Instagram as Talking, Henry. I am always posting a lot there, including a lot of gay stuff. If you liked all the queer conversation. When I say gay stuff, I mean, in a political sense. And if you're following me and Bob on social media, you should also be following the official account at Talk Simpsons Pod on both Blue Sky and

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Son, that's the stupidest idea I ever heard, and I know exactly who would pay top dollar for it. You've reached Fox. If you're pitching a show where gold-digging skanks get what's coming. Coming to them, press one. If you're pitching a rip-off of another network's reality show, press two. Please stay on the line. Your half-baked ideas are all we've got. Actually, your aunt is marrying a very lucky woman.

I thought you said Aunt Patty was just waiting for the right man. As opposed to you who grabbed the first blimp that floated by. Correction, the first blimp who got her pregnant. Seriously, Dad, I'm worried. You should go on a diet. Why, you little... Save my plate. Why you...

...you, little...