Tangle - 30 Days

Episode Date: September 1, 2024

Within a span of 30 days, the 2024 election became one of the most chaotic, surprising, and historic elections in history.We asked our undecided voters where they were when they heard about the attempted assassination of President Trump, their immediate reactions, Trump’s RNC speech, Republican Vice Presidential Nominee JD Vance, President Biden dropping out of the race, and Kamala Harris.The election is now 78 days away. You can⁠⁠⁠ subscribe to Tangle by clicking here⁠⁠⁠ or drop something⁠⁠⁠ in our tip jar by clicking here.⁠⁠⁠The Undecideds is a Tangle Media ProductionThis episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon LallInterviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokowa, Will Kaback, Jon Lall, and Ari Weitzman. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Working in the trades is intense. It can be stressful and painful. Some guys use drugs and alcohol to cope. But when we ask for help, or we see someone struggling with addiction... Our silence speaks volumes. See how you can help, or get help, at Canada.ca slash ease the burden. A message from the Government of Canada. From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year.

Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. Based on

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to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney Plus. From Tangle Media and founder, Isaac Saul. And executive producer, John Long. This is The Undecideds. I'm Isaac Saul, and welcome to Episode 6 of The Undecideds. Within a span of 30 days, the 2024 election became one of the most chaotic, surprising, and historic elections in history.

That chart's a couple of months old, and if you want to really see something that's said, take a look at what happened. Good evening. We are coming on the air with breaking news. There has been an incident at Donald Trump's Pennsylvania rally. It appears shots have apparently been fired and Donald Trump has been shots ringing out as President Trump ducks down. Secret service agents rush to his side, forming a protective shield. Trump's security detail lifting him up from the ground as he raises his fist, his ear and face bloodied, gesturing to the crowd. Our news starts in Milwaukee, where the Republican National Convention is now underway. More than 2,400 Republican delegates have gathered for the four-day event. And at about 2.30 today, day one of the convention, former President Trump announced his running mate, Ohio Senator J.D. Vance.

Vance was first elected to the Senate in 2022 after receiving an endorsement from Trump in a contested Republican primary. from Trump in a contested Republican primary. Vance, who penned his memoir, Hillbilly Elegy, about life in Appalachia, once described himself as a never-comer. So tonight, Mr. Chairman, I stand here humbled and I'm overwhelmed with gratitude to say I officially accept your nomination to be vice president of the United States of America. United States of America. We are coming on the air at this hour with breaking news. President Biden has just announced that he is ending his reelection bid. Now to our other breaking story tonight. President Joe Biden has withdrawn from the 2024 race. Just moments ago, the president tweeted out, it has been the greatest honor of my life to serve as your president. And while it has been my intention to seek reelection, I believe it is in the best interest of my party and the country for me to

stand down and to focus solely on fulfilling my duties as president for the remainder of my time. These rapidly moving developments. First, we had the letter from the president of the United States saying that he was going to step aside in this race. Now we are seeing yet another post on social media from President Biden. Because the big question after the president announced that he was going to step aside in this race was who exactly was going to step in. It seems like the president has an answer to that question on who he's endorsing here. President Biden is now endorsing his vice president, Kamala Harris, to be the nominee of the Democratic Party this year. I want to read now what the president says himself in a post on X,

formerly known as Twitter. He says he reiterates he's decided not to accept the nomination and to focus his energies on his duties as president for the remainder of his term. He goes on to say that his first decision as the party nominee in 2020 was to pick Kamala Harris as my vice president. He says, and it's been the best decision I've made today. He says, I want to offer my full support and endorsement for Kamala to be the nominee of our party this year. We asked our undecided voters where they were when they heard about the attempted assassination of President Trump, their immediate reactions, Trump's RNC speech, Republican vice presidential nominee J.D. Vance, President Biden dropping out of the race and, of course, Kamala Harris taking his place.

The election is now 78 days away. All right, we are back again with Claire from Ohio. Claire, how are you doing this week? I'm doing pretty well. How are you? All right. Not a lot of news. So we've got a lot to cover. So let's just get to the first thing first. So Claire, where were you when you heard about the attempted assassination of former President Donald Trump? And what was your immediate reaction? Yeah, I was just sitting at home making some

cupcakes. And then I actually, one of my co-workers was there at the rally. So I saw on Slack an hour before him posting a picture being like, hey, my wife and I are at the rally. And then I just see him send it Slack shots fired at the rally. So I probably knew foremost people just because my co-er happened to be there. And yeah, I heard through that. And I was just kind of checking my phone like every five minutes for updates to just see kind of what was going on as it unfolded. And then like, I don't know, maybe hour and a half, two hours later, I get a call from a managing editor. And I'm like, OK, we're pulling an all-nighter. Like this is happening now. I almost didn't process like the shock of Trump being shot. I just kind of went into like work mode instead of processing it

like politically, which is my tendency to be like, okay, let's just see what the news and what other people are saying rather than grasping my reaction. But I think it was one of those things that was like a shock, but not a surprise. I think I'm probably not the only one that was like, I actually can't believe it took this long for someone to take a shot at him, unfortunately. So it definitely was a shock, but it was not surprising that someone would do that. I think what's more surprising is everything that's unfolded afterwards about like, how did this happen? So I'm curious just to hear more about what it means for you as somebody who works for all sides to respond in work mode. Yeah, it's kind of just like going to all of the different news websites,

getting screenshots, seeing their headlines, seeing if there are general trends on the left and right. Definitely getting on Twitter, seeing what big names seeing if there are general trends on the left and right. Definitely getting on Twitter, seeing what big names are saying, just kind of hopping around a lot and putting everything, trying to document everything. Trying to copy and paste links, get screenshots, all of those things as it's coming out so that we can kind of make sense of it for readers later and kind of show them how everyone reacted. So now that we are a little bit removed from the assassination attempt, has anything changed in how you're thinking about the election? It hasn't really changed anything for me. There was some really cool photos, but I was quite surprised to hear some other people that were undecided being like, oh, I'm definitely voting for Trump now after this happened. And I was quite surprised to hear some other people that were undecided being like, oh, I'm definitely voting for Trump now after this happened.

And I was like, why are you letting someone else's decision to commit violence dictate how you're going to vote? It doesn't change how I think about Trump at all. I think, yeah, I guess he's kind of brave for standing back up and pumping his fists in the air. But at the same time, I'm like, he's a showman. His first instinct was probably to put on a show that doesn't change anything about his policies or how I think he's going to govern. So I'd say it didn't really change my opinions in that regard. Okay, so you're thinking that the way that people are processing this that could change them is just in terms of how Trump reacted to the shooting. Yeah, from what I was hearing from other people, it was like, oh, he took a bullet for this

country. And also about like how the media has been villainizing him over the last few years. And so it's kind of like the left's fault that this happened. And, you know, particularly the mainstream media on the left, which I can understand a little bit. But again, why are you, in my opinion, I'm like, why are you letting what the media on the left is doing dictate who you're going to vote for rather than the type of person you're voting for? Zahid, thank you so much for joining us again. Glad to be back. A lot has happened in the, honestly, I think it's even been less than 30 days, but it seems

like just around there, there's been a lot that's happened in the political atmosphere. So I'm going to go back a little bit. I can't believe I'm even saying that. It feels like it wasn't that long ago. But my first question is, where were you when you heard about the attempted assassination of President Trump? And what was your reaction to that news? I don't remember where I was, but the reaction immediately was like, I hope he's, you know, he's going to be okay, because, you know, that it would be a big, it would be a big deal if, you know, something like that actually happened where, you know, he didn't survive. So that was like one thing that i was like you know looking on media sites twitter trying to figure out you know what exactly happened and

like of course uh social media is all over the place when these kind of things happen so so that's uh that's where uh that's what i recall happened when i first heard about it did the assassination attempt change anything in your thinking about the election at all? Not really, because I feel like there is, the country seems to be completely 50-50 divided, and so there's a lot of rhetoric from both sides. And I feel it was someone snapped, something happened.

And the more I learn about like you know what's been going on with like you know the investigation when it comes to the assassination attempt like it just it seems like very chaotic um so yeah it seems like one of those uh things that just came out of nowhere because that's not something you would expect to happen especially in the united states but it's something that I think the last time something like that happened was when Reagan was running for president. So yeah, so it's one of those things that, you know, every once in a while, I guess something like that can happen. But I didn't expect something like that to happen to, you know, Trump.

that to happen to Trump. It's Magdalena from Tangle interviewing Brian from Arizona. Brian, there has been a lot that has happened since we last spoke. Where were you when you first when you heard about the attempted assassination of President Trump? Walk us walk us through that day. So I was in my girl's room because one of the clothes racks had fallen. We just moved into a new house and we had set up some racks and it got heavily loaded and it just ripped the wall out. So I was repairing the wall, the drywall, and I hear my wife from the living room say, Trump was shot. And I just kind of stopped and I looked and I immediately thought of a prediction that someone that I followed that I really respect had said, he said, if anyone is, I don't know, anybody more likely than Trump to be assassinated. That just, that, what he said went straight through my mind at that time, and I thought, there's no possible way.

There's no way. So I said, what are you talking about? And she said, all she was saying was he was shot. There was no context. So I thought, like, fatal. And so as soon as I opened up everything and looked for myself, sure enough, I saw there was an attempt and there's pictures of him standing, bloodied, fist in the air. That circulated pretty quickly.

So definitely a moment that I probably am going to remember the rest of my life. Only because I am young enough that no major thing like this has I've ever been old enough to really be cognizant of. This was probably one of the first in my short 28 years of life where I will be able to tell my grandkids exactly where I was during that attempt. So can't say that for other things. I was alive during 9-11, but that was, I was six, very young. So this, this comes close say that for other things. I was alive during 9-11, but that was I was six, very young. So this this comes close to that for me. Kind of, you know, other people's 9-11. This is kind of where I'm at, you know, the two are drastically different. But just in terms of like, where was I at? Exactly what was I doing? I remember exactly. Wow. And how has the assassination attempt changed anything in how you're thinking about the election, Brian?

changed anything in how you're thinking about the election, Brian? Well, it's a great question. It's definitely added more weight to my view of the election, because the election has always held a certain weight to it. You know, going into 2020, there was a certain heaviness, I felt, but the heaviness now of the election is tenfold to what it was in 2020 for me. So going into this election, I am now very, very curious what's going to happen next. I'm just, I'm trying to keep ears up, hearing what I can, doing as much reading as I can, albeit, even though it's kind of scattered all over the place, trying to just fit it in where I can, because naturally life gets way, way, way crazy busy. But I am, I just, I don't know what's going to happen. I mean, I feel like I'm living a fictional reality that someone in the early 20th century has only ever thought up in their brain. You know what I mean? Like, 1984.

That's similar to what I'm feeling right now. I feel like I'm living in a fictional world where there's this crazy narrative that is playing out, and I can't wake up out of it. I keep rubbing my eyes saying, there's no way this is real. But sure enough, everywhere I look, this is, I'm part of a wild ride right now in history, especially with all the things that have just been so crammed in and happened so fast. It's boom, boom, boom, you know? So, yeah, I am, I'm feeling very, this is weighty. It's probably the best way I could put it.

Diana, thank you so much for joining us again. It's good to see you again, John. Good to see you too. So Diana, where were you when you heard about the attempted assassination of President Trump? And what was your immediate reaction? Well, actually, I was on a river cruise in France when I heard, and I really wasn't connected to anything. And my husband just happened to say, oh my gosh, you know, somebody tried to kill Trump, and he got shot and he hit his ear.

But they got the guy, and that was about it and um we heard we heard snippets from people like maybe at dinner you might hear somebody saying something but really not much of anything and i think it was because the circumstances everybody was on vacation everybody was trying to disconnect a little bit we heard what happened you know we'll deal with it when we get home. So that's where I was. So let's gauge your reaction. Maybe after you got home or after a few days, maybe after some time to process it, what were your thoughts about what happened? Well, I can tell you right away. I mean, my initial thought was just absolute shock and dismay that this, that, you you know that something like this had happened

um and then once i got home and heard more about the circumstances and um that it didn't seem like they had all of the um protection that they had asked for and the fact that you know people were pointing out the shooter and all this it It was very, very disheartening. The one thing I was glad of, in spite of all this, that everybody agreed that this was a problem. I'm glad that both the Democrats and the Republicans both came down really hard on the Secret Service. That was good to see, that the Democrats were like, oh, well, we don't really care because it was Trump or something like that. I'm glad none of that happened. But it was pretty shocking and pretty disheartening. And I think just another example of how the American discourse

and how the division is just getting wider and we're just spiraling more and more downward. All right. Hi, Phil. Starting off, where were you when you heard about the attempted assassination of President Trump? Let's see, where was I? Oh, I was on a retreat. I, oh, I was on a retreat, actually, in upstate New York, a group of Episcopalians that I'm providing some consulting for. And somebody said something about Trump being shot, and I thought they were joking. Just it was part of the banter about politics we were having. So I was shocked when she said, no, no, it really happened. And Phil, what was your initial reaction when you started to watch the news reports about the shooting? Maybe this is an unusual reaction, but I guess I wasn't that shocked.

I mean, I was shocked, obviously, to hear it happen. But in our current political climate, to hear that violence happens did not create a continuing sense of, oh, this can't be happening. It's like, well, yes, yes, this is the kind of thing that I would expect, unfortunately, might happen. And that was about the only reaction. I mean, eventually, as I started hearing the broadcast, I had the impression, well, this certainly isn't going to hurt Trump. This may be the turning point. Of course, I had no idea of what was going to happen after this in the week, but this may be the turning point. Of course, I had no idea of what was going to happen after this in the week. But this this may be the turning point that rallies Trump supporters. And one of the people was like four feet away from the incident. And she gave a very sympathetic interpretation. And to see his, for lack of a better word, his defiant strength, which has kind of showed strength though it may not particularly appeal to me the way he did it um i had the sense that this event the way he responded is going to um is is going to help his uh candidacy and uh has that sense uh evolved or changed in any ways in the week or so since the shooting?

was for the most part a positive and the Republican Party was unifying around him. And then at the same time, the Democratic Party was trying to get Biden to resign, at least the power players, which, you know, none of that looks good. None of that bodes well for the Democratic Party and their candidate. So I saw nothing but Trump increasing in popularity or at least mobilizing his base. And as you know, through this whole time, I've been a never Trumper and yet a historic Republican who can't really stomach another four years of Biden. And when I saw the debate and pondered that more about the only thing that would cause me to vote for Trump, I decided might be the fact that this Biden continues in the candidacy. I mean, how can I vote for somebody who's obviously incapable of functioning as president, regardless of my distaste for Trump? So I was as close as I could ever be to kind of holding my nose and voting for Trump when Biden was seeming to defy the forces of his party and talking about staying in the race. Obviously, that's no longer the case. And so I'm probably back where I was. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing? That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee.

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of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. theaters November 15th. The Republican National Convention took place on July 15th, just days after the assassination attempt on Donald Trump. We asked our undecided voters about their thoughts on the convention, Trump's closing speech, and his new running mate, J.D. Vance. Did you watch Trump's convention speech accepting the Republican nomination for president? And if so, what did you think about the tone and the message of the speech, Claire? I honestly didn't watch it. I was like, it's been a long week. I'm not staying up till

midnight for you. I was like, I'm good. From what I heard after, it seemed like a lot of people were disappointed and they thought he was going to shift to unity after, it seemed like a lot of people were disappointed and they thought he was going to shift to unity, but it seemed like a little bit of the same old Trump. And I was kind of like, that makes sense to me because even though we heard he was rewriting the speech to focus on unity, it was hard for me to imagine what that gear shift would look like for Trump because his rhetoric is so opposite of that. Like it's always been extremely pumped up and divisive and aggressive in my opinion. So I'm like, I can't see him switch unless it was just like everyone in the country should unite behind me because someone

just took a shot at me. And I don't know, I didn't know what that looked like. So I'm not surprised to hear it didn't totally shift. But that being said i didn't really watch clips of it so i can't i can't have too much of an opinion but i was also like again not imagining it would change my opinion of him because i'm like you know we've seen this last over four years so then not a whole lot of opinions about the speech, but so can you tell me what you think of Trump choosing Jade Vance as his running mate? Does that impact your voting decision at all? selfishly part of my immediate reaction is like oh I'm so proud to be an Ohioan and I'm happy that like it's someone from Ohio um but I definitely again I don't have like super strong feelings towards Vance because I don't know a ton about him but I don't from what I've seen of what he said he seems equally as extreme in rhetoric and in, you know, the things that he wants in like abortion policy, things like that, that seem equally as extreme

as Trump. And the things that he said about Trump in the past, obviously, that's a big story about him used to used to hate Trump. Now he's changed his mind. To me, he kind of comes off as like a little bit of a grifter of like, he's going to say what is popular to get more power at the time. I don't know if that's an opinion that could change about him, but I don't feel compelled to like, I really liked J.D. Vance in any way. I would have liked to see him. I honestly thought he might go with Tim Scott. I thought that would have been like a little bit more of a choice that would reach out to people who don't historically like Trump. And I feel like he picked someone who is very in alignment with him, very kind of MAGA that's like

not going to appeal to moderates or independents like me. So I thought, I was like, he's clearly picking someone who is, he's clearly relying on his current base to get him the votes and not trying to kind of reach out to people who never liked him. So I'm curious about that, since you said you see this pick as something that will kind of deliver more to his base and not moderates like you. Is it then fair to conclude from that that you think this pick didn't really impact the way that you see Trump as a candidate? Yeah, that's fair. Going into the Republican National Convention, did you get a chance to watch trump's convention speech i actually did get the chance to watch the speech because i i wanted to tune in uh because

you know this was after the assassination attempt i think a few four or five days later and i just wanted to see like you know i knew he was the presumptive nominee and stuff. So that was like, there's nothing there other than that. But I also wanted to see, like, how he, first opportunity that he got to talk, how would that be for him? And, you know, it was a little bit disappointing because, you know, it started off in a tone that i felt like okay it was very telling of like you know someone who just survived a assassination attempt like he seemed very grateful um but uh very soon like i think it was like an hour and a half long uh speech and like very within like 20 minutes now he were he was 20 to 30 minutes he was back to being himself

so so that was a little you know disappointing I felt like you know he had the country's attention I feel like I mean a lot of people who would never watch him speak actually told me that they were actually watching it so it was like an opportunity to appeal to them but I think he completely missed it again I mean he missed it during the debate but the debate doesn't matter anymore because, you know, the person he was debating has dropped out. But then again, he had this really good opportunity

to gain people from the middle. But I think he failed again. Yeah, we're going to definitely swing around to that in a minute. Another big thing that happened. Before we get to that, I have a question for you about Trump's running mate. What do you think about Trump choosing J.D. Vance as his running mate? What do you think about J.D. Vance? And does his appointment as Trump's VP nominee impact your voting decision at all? So I think I have followed J.D. Vance's journey

a little bit closely because, well, he, I remember him, he was doing a book tour. He was in the Bay Area. And I got to listen to him. I believe it was some radio show. And that's when I heard about his book for the first time and how he had described what it's living. Because I was always looking for the reasons. How did someone like Trump with his track record get elected in 2016? And I think his book answered a lot of those questions as to what's been happening in the areas in the Midwest. So I think that was something that was very interesting to, you know, learn from him how things are. I did not even know at the time that he had any political aspirations, but I do remember this, that later on I heard that Peter Thiel, who was a very well-known figure in

Silicon Valley, he backed him to run, and then he ran for for the political office and he is now the you know a vp uh trump's choice for vp so his ascent to the elite circles or i guess the to the leadership circles um has been like crazy because to just watch someone like who was really not known for anything else other than the book he wrote explaining a lot of the issues in the midwest so it was surprising but then again if someone follows peter thiel and his idea about how the world should look like you could easily tell that in 2016 he was one of the only silicon valley people high profile silicon valley people who supported trump and he was at the convention so this year seeing someone who's so close to peter thiel be he become him trump's vp uh candidate just is like okay uh peter thiel has an idea about certain things and he felt that

this was the best candidate uh to put forth um i guess he might have had some conditions i feel uh where peter thiel might have been like you know what i'm going to support you but i want my person uh as a vp pick and you need to go with him and because he was like not someone i would have thought about as far as trump picking his vp candidate goes so so that's the whole thing and then again um everything that i've been hearing about him um in the media it's mostly been like he's like you know very underwhelming kind of you know personality like i just don't see him but then again you you also expect that trump would not want anyone who can overshadow him like he wouldn't want someone who's smarter than him he wouldn't want someone who was like more boisterous than him so that in that regard

like jd vance is like perfect uh he'll stay in his lane and let trump do whatever he needs to so there's no there's never going to be like a team-team kind of relationship between them. But then again, yeah, it was really surprising. Does it lend any weight, do you think, to Trump's run? Do you think it helps him choosing J.D. Vance? Do you think it hurts him? Not really. So when it comes to, I mean, even previously Mike know, previously, Mike Pence, like he was just there. It was all Trump. And I think once again, you have someone who, at least Mike Pence, you know, had some sort of morals and stuff. But I don't know about Jody Vance much to know how, you know, how he is.

you know how he is uh but all i can say is like he really didn't like trump much before and but now he loves him so it just tells me that he'll do anything he'll say anything uh which to me is again someone who is very hypocritical so i just feel like you know someone like vance uh you know, someone like Vance, you know, it should be fine for him. Ryan, did you watch Trump's convention speech accepting the nomination? And if so, what did you think of the tone and the message of the speech? So that one I completely missed. It was not even on my radar. And it was only after the fact that I learned that, oh, this is where it actually happens, where he secures the nomination. And this is my ignorance, because I thought back, I don't know, May, June, that it was already secured. So something I learned, you know, but, and it was only within the last maybe week or two,

whenever that happened, I'm like, oh, so that's how it actually happened. So I did not see it. It's something I have to go back and look at. I did hear that Vance was announced as the vice president, like running mate with Trump. I think that's the right terminology, maybe. So, but that was, I had zero clue that was happening and zero clue of what all that entailed. And I haven't even really heard how much people thought about it, really. I've been kind of off social media lately and away from the news just because I've started some extra work here. And so I've been doing some work training. So that one was complete. I have really zero input on that

one aside from the fact that, oh yeah, he's the nominee and he has his running mate now. Brian, what do you think of, of JD Vance? Like even like the little that, you know, like whatever you do know, what do you feel, you know, what do you think about the decision? you know what do you think about the decision yeah just on a very brief sketch of what i was able to find it seems like he is a very interesting candidate that might be able to help pull things a little more conservatively and if that makes sense and this is going on very little that i know i i could be mistaken, but it seems like there are some highlights to Vance, such as the fact that he's definitely a young guy. I like the law degree. I like the experience in the military, especially as a combat journalist.

Definitely seems like there's got to be a way to think about issues, uh, as you are, uh, being a journalist. And if you're overseas and that kind of stuff, I really respect, uh, men and women who go into the military, who do their service, uh, especially those who choose to stay in that kind of career, because it definitely takes a special, uh, kind of career because it definitely takes a special uh kind of person who really has that calling and so that that experience to me is valuable um and again those ivy league names i really could care less about because i mean public education and especially the way it's leaning it just does not impress me anymore so it it's not, I don't think where is as important as what he studied. So that definitely makes me feel optimistic.

I don't know if you were back yet. Did you get to watch any of the Republican National Convention? Did you get to watch any of the Republican National Convention? Did you happen to see Trump's speech? No, I never saw any of it. A couple times we had the TV on in the room when we were, you know, looking to find... Oh, no, no, no. I know it was. Well, we were in the airport on the way home. They had it on in the airport and you could see it, but it was all in French and it was going by too fast for me to pick up what was going on. So same thing. It's like I'm going to be home in 24 hours. You know, I'm, you know, that Vance had been, you know, was Trump's vice presidential pick. But I really didn't see anything about his speech. I've heard snippets of

it here and there, and more what I've heard from him is just in response to Biden's resignation. But I guess you probably want to talk about that later. So. I will for sure get to that. resignation, but I guess you probably want to talk about that later. I will for sure get to that. So you mentioned J.D. Vance. What do you think about him being Donald Trump's running mate? And does that have any impact on your voting decision? I am very disheartened with him as Trump's running mate. I read his book when it first came out. So that's been what, like 10 or 15 years. And it was very interesting. And it made a good case for why this particular demographic was voting for Trump. But when he would reach a point where, and he would kind of say, you know,

and so this is what, you know, these people see in Trump. But then there was always that caveat, but I'm not endorsing Trump. I don't like Trump, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I have yet, and maybe I've missed something, to find out what has caused this flip-flop. And I guess part of, to me, what was very disheartening is he seems like a Trump surrogate. seems like a Trump surrogate. He seems to be now as nasty as Trump, as bombastic as Trump. And the one thing I was hoping is that if Trump did get elected, that would be it. And then maybe we could start to get this country back on track as far as civility, as far as listening to each other, as far as compromise. And I think if Trump does win, and of course, you know, this is a long projection, he would most likely be the next nominee, which means this continuous nasty discourse,

getting back at people is going to continue. And I think this is now our national mood. I don't think there's anybody at this point that can say, you know, I'm really going to work to change this and I'm going to bring the country together. I don't think it can happen. I think what we're looking at now, even if something would change today, it's going to be at least a decade before we can pull things back together. But if we have Trump for four more years, and then we would have Vance for another four or eight years, that's 12 years of this, we're stuck. We are just going to turn into nasty people if we even last that long, if we don't just tear each other apart and ruin the country. And that's my biggest concern with him, because he has just from the get out, he's been nasty. And I just, I don't like him at all. I guess I should say I don't like his politics or his behavior. say I don't like his politics or his behavior. Moving on to last week's Republican National Convention. So Phil, did you watch Trump's convention speech when he accepted the nomination?

I did. And it's way past my bedtime. Yes, I watched that whole evening. And so what would you like to know about my book? Oh, goodness. My main question is, what did you think of the tone and then separately the message of the speech, particularly in light of some of the lead up where a lot of the people in Trump's world were saying it would be a different man, a different tone, a focus on unity you know he handled the first um 10 15 minutes uh well um in the sense that he was more subdued and seemed more reflective and it was it was smart of him to tell the story from his perspective um because that is that's captivating um the the bit about Comperre and his fireman's jacket was a little bit staged for me, but at least he was showing the right focus on the sacrifice paid by someone and the consequences of that horrific event. But as he moved on, not only is he unvisciplined as Stephen Kater, with very little regard for his audience's ability to stay with him, more and more he

became himself and gave what would have been a typical Trump rally speech. would have been a typical Trump rally speech. And this thing, you know, my problem is I cringe when he begins to talk because he overstates, he misstates, he villainizes. And the more he speaks the less i like him and that's always been the case um so by the end i didn't i i lasted a little over an hour of the speech and in the end i i turned it off um and and my conclusion was you know know, character is destiny. He's Donald Trump, and his character is ingrained. And whatever is wrong with his character is not going to be repented of. It's not going to be changed. It's going to endure.

And actually, that was the decisive thing for me, because I actually appreciate his selection of J.D. Vance. I'm interested in the shift in the Republican Party. It always used to be defined by that famous three-legged stool, social conservatism, economic freedom, and military power. And the Republican Party was susceptible to the criticism that they're in the pocket of big business. And the military-industrial complex is not something I deeply admire. I read too much Wendell Berry, but I am a social conservative. And I also prefer power localized, and I distrust government as well. And the more power they have, the more I think they think they can control the outcome and they often step into it. So J.D. Vance is talking a little bit more like a hillbilly Americanized version of Catholic social justice teaching. So where he's a moral conservative, he's also wanting to say, but we are defending the working class and we're not going to be defending Wall Street against the working class. Well, that's a good move, I think, in terms of the needs of culture. And it's also a good move for the Republican Party. And although I don't think they're for a weak United States of America, they are reticent to get involved in everyone's conflict. So I think that new right positioning is actually going to become more popular into the future. And I also think the way the Democrats have been labeled as elitist and it's becoming the elitist party is not going to bode well because America distrusts the elite. There's kind of an anti-intellectual edge throughout the American culture, especially on the populist level. So I think the right leader, not J.D. Vance at his current age, but 10 years from now, maybe four years from now,

would be an attractive candidate. But you join him to Trump's character problems. And that's where I just could not bring myself to ever vote for someone who is so self-centered, so extreme in his language. And some of his actions, like January 6th, are emotionally based and ill-considered. He reacts, and then he tries to justify his reaction. And that can be a very dangerous thing in a man of great power. So I just can't go with Trump, and character is destiny, and I won't go with Trump. But I'm also less interested in Kamala Harris than I was in Joe Biden. I'm curious, Phil, just to hear a little bit more about your thinking about Vance, and particularly whether you, I know you said that he alone isn't enough to compel you to possibly vote for Trump, but curious if you thought at all about, you know, what a vote for that ticket could mean in terms of solidifying him as the future of a party that you may be interested in down the line. Yes, I've thought about that. And it's a strong

argument. I mean, I, there's a side of me that would just love to do that. I'm more hopeful about a less arrogant and less, a better character sitting in that kind of political position. So, yes, I think that makes sense. But it violates something deep within me to support Trump being elected in light of all that he's said and done. And he is so unrepentant. But there is no sense in him that at any step along the way he's done anything wrong. And my no vote is as much to say, I cannot tolerate and I cannot support a man that takes that position. Um, even if, you know, I look at his first three years, um, in the White House, um, and I, I think, um, we were doing fine. I think his strength of character does play well against other until, you know, you're playing chicken and you get in the war. So he isn't as bad as his rhetoric. as his rhetoric. He must, at some level, defer to the counsel he gets. And he seems to surround himself with some better thinkers in the various fields, and he seems to let them lead. But just because he's so belligerent and unrepentant and because of January 6th. I can't support him in order to

support the future of the Republican Party. I'll support the Republican Party's future when he's not associated with it. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Some guys use drugs and alcohol to cope. But when we ask for help, or we see someone struggling with addiction, our silence speaks volumes. See how you can help, or get help, at Canada.ca slash ease the burden. A message from the Government of Canada. The flu remains a serious disease. from the Government. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province.

Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCellVax.ca. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, After a dismal debate and weeks of speculation, President Biden announced that he would be dropping out of the race on July 21st. Still recovering from a bout with COVID, Biden released the news in a letter posted on X, formerly known as Twitter. We asked our undecided voters to share their thoughts on his exit and their opinions on his endorsement of Vice President Kamala Harris to take over the ticket. All right. So last question for you here, Claire.

Actually, last couple of questions just to get into the other big bombshell piece of news that we had from the last couple of weeks, which is President Joe Biden announced that he is going to be dropping out of the race. Where were you when you heard about this? And what was your immediate reaction to the news? Yeah, I was getting ready to go to Target, sit at home again. And I was like, oh, Joe Biden dropped out. And again, a shock, but not a surprise. Like I thought I didn't think he was going to drop out when I heard him speak at after the NATO summit and he was pretty firm on staying in and I was like maybe he's really not gonna drop and then suddenly all these rumors started coming out like the gears have shifted he's going to drop out this weekend so not surprising because we kind of had heard those rumors beforehand that he might.

And then I was like, okay, this is suddenly very interesting. You know, is he going to endorse Kamala Harris? I assumed he would, and then he did. But again, it was kind of weird that he endorsed her in like a tweet after the letter that was just in a thread. And I was like, why wouldn't you say that outright? So the whole thing, it felt kind of strange the way that it was done especially you expect a president to like say this to the people not just tweet it in a letter it felt kind of anticlimactic um but it is what it is now it looks like kamala harris is going to be the nominee um which like i said now now things get interesting now i feel like things have an

opportunity to shift i feel like there's been a lot more optimism about her. I don't know that I'm a lot more optimistic about her, but I'm willing to give her a shot to earn my vote. Like, I'm interested to see who she picks for VP, how she does in a debate against Trump, all those sorts of things, and kind of excited to reevaluate. Maybe I do like her more. Well, let's double click on that a bit. Now that Joe Biden has endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris, how are you thinking about the nomination? What's your basic opinion right now about Harris and how do you see this race shaping up? Yeah, I've never really liked Kamala Harris. I would have preferred an open convention just because it would have been someone probably that I liked more.

I didn't like her when she ran for president in 2020, and I felt like her campaign kind of crashed and burned. And that part of her getting the VP slot was just identity-based, not necessarily being the best person for the job. And her first job was to solve the border. And I was like, the border has been in shambles for the last three years. It's just now starting to get better. And it doesn't seem to be her doing. It seems to be Joe Biden's executive order. And I've also heard people saying like her abortion is her issue now. And I'm like, nothing has happened on the federal scale since Roe v. Wade was overturned on abortion so I'm like I haven't seen anything from her um so I guess the major concern is like

I haven't seen anything that she's done in office and I also from seeing clips of her speak don't feel like she's a great communicator historically um but like I said because I feel like she's a great communicator historically. But like I said, because I feel like she's been so much in the background during the administration, you know, I'll get to see her speak more directly, hopefully, and get to, you know, hear more about her policies, which I don't think I'm going to agree with most of them. But at least if I can see her communicate them well, and I, like I said, I'm excited to see who she picks for VP because I think that will tell me how she's thinking strategically. There are a few people that I would favor in terms of...

There's both people that I would like personally and people that I'm like, oh, this would be a smart choice because they're from a battleground state, these type things. Whereas if she were to pick someone like Gretchen Whitmer, I'd be like, two women on a ticket, are you even trying to win? So I think seeing who she picks for that will kind of let me know a little bit where her head's at as well, and if I feel like she can actually win this. So Zahid, where were you when you heard about President Biden dropping out of the race? And what was your immediate reaction to that news? I believe I was, you know, doom scrolling on Twitter, as usual. It was Sunday evening or

Sunday afternoon, I believe, and I saw his, you know, the screenshot of his letter. And I felt it was the right thing to do. I mean, I'm pretty sure it must have been really difficult because to go from like that debate and since that debate, like I think a lot of people took a lot of, you know, did a lot of damage to his legacy and talked about a lot of things that were really not favorable for him. And I feel like he eventually decided, I guess, with his family that it's not worth it. And I think it was the right decision. Now, having said that, him putting all his support towards Kamala Harris, that to me was something like, hmm, maybe that's a little too soon.

And I think there should have been some sort of like, I know this is very unprecedented and like there's not much time left and stuff, but I don't know if there should have been like, you know, at least an effort to put like maybe a couple of people put forth like, hey, you know, you guys need to vote or somehow you can do something to see if there was someone else who could be a better candidate than Kamala Harris. So what do you feel about Kamala Harris receiving the nomination? And, you know, how do you feel about her as a candidate?

So I understand why she was the default choice, because, you know, she's currently the vice president, so she's a default choice. But at the time now i have like not said this out loud yet so i don't know if i might be offending someone but i feel like um in 2016 when hillary clinton ran like and she lost to someone like trump that like made me think a lot about a lot about like how people perceive women in leadership in power and so a white woman ran against a white person and lost now there you have a black woman running against a white person i don't see how she wins but then again you know i also you know, I also, you know, I could be wrong. Things have changed since 2016, of course, things have changed. Now, the biggest thing that we have is the abortion fight, right? Like, that's one huge issue.

So it's possible that this time, you know, women vote for Kamala Harris and, like, she gets the vote of people, just because there's a lot more at stake. Maybe people in 2016 were like, you know what, because I know people were really surprised when Trump won, and it was like, how could this be, right? But then again, the same thing might happen this time. He might win the three or four swing states that he needs to win, and he might become the president again. So I think based on what is at stake, she is a great choice. But then again,

it will really, really depend on who her VP will be. What do you think of Kamala Harris as a candidate, you know, according to her policies or according to her positions? Harris as a candidate, you know, according to her policies or according to her positions? So I honestly don't know what she did the past three and a half years. Like, I don't remember hearing anything about literally anything. Like, I understand VPs are not in limelight all the time. They are not really involved with policy in the sense that a president might be. But I don't know her record for the past three and a half years to make any sort of judgment on how she would be.

That said, I do know she was San Francisco DA. So that means she's from California. She has a certain kind of background. Any politician in California would. She is definitely liberal. And in that regard, I know she's a very fierce fighter. She's a strong woman. She has ideas. She can articulate well. So all those things, yes, she would make a good leader. But I don't think what qualities she

brings forth, at least in this election matter as much because a lot of it is about things that um everyone else doesn't really care about especially in the interim because it's like okay um in 2016 you guys told us it's a matter of democracy uh nothing happened trump got elected like you know yeah he did things january 6th happened but you know he left uh then 2020 happened and then you again told us like it's about democracy like you know we need to save democracy well and nothing really happened uh so again once again it's 2024 and we're talking about like this is like you know trump is just going to just get rid of democracy in the u.S. And then that should not be the only reason to convince someone to vote for someone. There has to be a little bit more than that.

Brian, do you remember where you were when you heard about President Biden dropping out of the race and what your immediate reaction was? Oh, let's see. I'm trying to remember. Oh, let's see. I'm trying to remember. I was swept up in something as I heard that. I was hearing from the people who I know who have been following it really closely and just from the little social media I've been seeing. So it might have been just like sitting in an afternoon with my parents and my wife, just hanging out, you know, grandbabies running around for my parents, something like that. But it wasn't as surprising to me. It wasn't as earth shattering to me because I kind of was expecting that to be the case. And again, my, for some reason, these people that are there in my email list or people I watch, I had heard back in April, uh, there was an email sent out from Robert Kiyosaki and his, someone that he was supporting in terms of like

a product and stuff like that uh robert kiyosaki uh rich dad poor dad guy in the he had linked to a someone was trying to sell its service or something uh but the headline read biden is going to drop out of the race he predicted it would would happen in June and it didn't happen in June. Uh, but the very fact that he was so certain that it would happen kind of caught my attention. And that's immediately what my mind went to was like, oh my goodness. Someone, you know, they got the date wrong. They knew it was going to happen at some point. That's definitely interesting to me.

And I still have that email too but um yeah so not as not as terribly surprising for me i was half expecting it uh what really is kind of got my feathers ruffled is uh who is taking his place in the race now we have vice president harris the official nominee how has this like changed your viewpoint of the race? And what do you think of her as a potential candidate? I'm not very optimistic. Just from the little I've seen in some of the policies and stances, she definitely seems to be on the left Biden pretty far. And I am not at all comfortable with electing her into the office

because of her stance on things like abortion, some all the standard issues, you know, that has me very concerned. And even with abortion specifically, that's usually the one that comes up. There is a reason for that in my mind, because I do feel you can get a strong sense of a person's worldview based on their stance on abortion, something I was thinking about recently. So when you hear people hitting the hot button items and basing a vote off that, I used to look down on that more so, but not as much now after kind of realizing that I do think that that stance and everything that comes with the abortion issue, all the baggage that's a part of that, I think the stance on that gives a lot of data, if that makes sense. I'd be happy to elaborate on that if needed. But needless to say,

it has me more concerned that she is a potential candidate. And I am not very, I'm more secure in who I would vote for in this case now than I ever was before. Were you still in France when you heard about about President Biden dropping out? Or were you here? No, no, no, I was here for that. They were, you know, they had been actually, even when I talked to you last, because I talked to you, I think the night after the debate. Yeah, it was like, those two nights after that. And even then there was like some rumblings about, you know, he's got to go, he's got to go. And by the time I got back, you can see that it was getting stronger and it was really picking up. And so, yes, I was here when that happened. What was your reaction when you heard the news? Actually, I think it was probably a good idea. I mean, I feel,

and I've said this before, I feel bad for him. This is not the way anybody wants to end their career, regardless of what you think of him as a president. And I really didn't think he was that good of a president. Regardless, he has served this country for a long time, and to be pushed out like that was a shame. But it was clear that he just can't handle this. So I think he did it with dignity. He did it with grace. And not to oversimplify it, but I think to a certain degree, it's no different than, you know, telling your 85-year-old father he can't drive anymore. He's not going to like it.

He's, you know, not going to want to hear it. Maybe he will finally be resigned to it. But it's still kind of sad when it happens. And, you know, but this on a much larger scale. scale. I also don't know, we haven't seen anything yet what this is going to do on the foreign stage if this is going to, you know, give Putin and North Korea and Iran, you know, ideas, you know, well, you know, he's really weak and he's really old, so now's the time to do something. I don't know. But that does worry me a little bit. I think that's a great point. A fair concern. Do you think that him dropping out of the race means that he should, you know,

concede the White House and step down? No, I do not. And the reason for that is, the best analogy I can come up with, think about like, you know, you're married, you've got kids, you're going to college, and you're working full-time, and you finally graduate from college. You've got that off your plate. That makes your life so much easier and so much less stressful. I think if he was going to be in the White House for four more years, it would be a different story, but since he's only going to be there for six more months, I think if he was going to be in the White House for four more years, it would be a different story. But since he's only going to be there for six more months, I think getting this off his plate is going to make things a lot easier. And regardless, I think that for the last, I don't know, three years, whatever, he has not been doing this by himself. I mean, his staff has really, there's been a lot going on behind closed doors as far as people helping him,

making decisions and all that that we don't know about. And I think that can continue for five more months. I think that would be better than him resigning. I think it would be better just to leave him there at this point. And it's only five more months. I mean, now I could eat my words, but that's what I'm thinking right now. Does Vice President Harris being the nominee change anything for you? Well, I don't really know how much choice they had other than possibly an open convention. I'm not sure if that would have been a good idea or not. That could have been total chaos. Who knows? So she is the nominee. I think that that's the way it is. I have always tried to look at it either with a presidential election if my candidate didn't win or whatever.

election if my candidate didn't win or whatever. Okay, it's over with. This is now my president. I want them to do well. I want to be able to support them. I want things to go well. Whatever I felt before, let it go. And let's do what we can to support them and find what we can positive in there. So that's kind of where I am now. I hope she can do a good job. I hope she can beat Trump. I think the whole abortion thing, I think she's going to be really good for that in women's rights. I think she's going to straighten that out real quick. So hopefully, you know, that won't be an issue anymore. But other than that, I really don't know. And actually, quite frankly, frankly little commercial here I'm really anxious to read the Tangle edition tomorrow because I don't know that much about her

and I'm kind of feel about it's kind of like the way I was with Hillary Clinton I just didn't like her I had a couple reasons for not liking Hillary Clinton but not really big reasons and Kamala Harris is kind of the same thing. So I'm really anxious to read this because what I'm hoping is that I will like her more. Same question as the assassination, Phil. Where were you when you heard that President Biden was dropping out of the race? Let's see. I think I was at home and reading my internet. I think I encountered it there. And that too. I mean, we had a weak buildup. And it looked like, you know, a 50-50% chance after the initial reaction to the debate. Then it seemed to be 60 that he was going to stay in because he seemed to be stiffening against the advice he was getting. But eventually, obviously, he rolled over.

As far as I can tell, that wasn't a decision that he wanted to make. It's a decision that he felt forced to make and he made it um but as the days and weeks went on um there was no hiding his physical mental condition and the media at this point was no longer creating a narrative of support which it had been it in fact was creating the other narrative because they wanted him out too. I don't think it's because they suddenly discovered, oh, it's this bad. I think it's because they suddenly discovered there's no way he's going to win and we can't have Trump.

And so they rolled over him and rolled him over. And he's now not the candidate. So how are you thinking about the potential replacements? It looks like it's almost certainly going to be Vice President Kamala Harris. You mentioned before that she is less appealing to you than Biden was. So can you walk me through a little bit of how you're thinking about her candidacy? you than Biden was. So can you walk me through a little bit of how you're thinking about her candidacy? Well, I mean, the first thing is that she's associated with any of the weaknesses that existed in Biden's presidency. Now, that depends on how you see it. Do you see his presidency as fundamentally positive? Then she gets associated with that. If you see it as more negative than positive, which I do, then she gets associated with all those If you see it as more negative than positive, which I do, then she gets associated with all those things, the weakness on immigration, the weakness on the international stage, the inordinate emphasis on DEI,

our poor withdrawal from Afghanistan, even the posturing in the Israel-Gaza situation, And even the posturing in the Israel-Gaza situation, which at times can be ambivalent, she gets associated with all of that. But she gets associated in a certain way. She, from the beginning, was more left, more progressive than Biden. She was the, if you will, the DEI candidate to enable Biden to win. And he was supposedly the centrist. So a person like me who thinks that we've gone too far in that direction is not likely to support Kamala. But then the other thing is, she doesn't have what I would call a leadership presence. When she was running on her own, she couldn't convince her party to provide hardly any support for her candidacy. And because Biden got so bad, the Democrats can only go up. And I don't think they could choose anyone else. I don't think they really have the time. But not only that, it would so alienate the black vote. If she, the sitting vice president,

supported by Biden, were ousted, it would just be offensive in an impossible way. And besides, who would they choose? It's really hard to see a good candidate that could muster the support of not just their party, but the candidates in the middle. So I think she's an inevitable choice, probably the best choice. It wouldn't move me toward voting Democrat. It would move me away. We just don't, we have two less than stellar choices. And people are going to probably make their decision based on who they don't want to

be president. All right, Claire, last question. Now that we're looking at a Trump and likely Harris race for November, what's your gut check leaning? What are you thinking about the race in total right now? Yeah, we'll see. I mean, my gut check is still probably third party unless Kamala Harris surprises me. But I'll be looking out to see if she does. If you had to vote today, do you know who you'd vote for? Yeah, definitely I would be voting Democratic and I would be voting for Kamala Harris. And I don't think we discussed the VP pick, but I would really, really hope she, I mean, I really hope this happens someday in the future.

Pete Buttigieg, I think he is, I love listening to him. Like he is the best when it comes to talking. And I think Democrats have had that missing of quite some time where someone can articulate something, someone can talk about issues without like, you know, pandering to any other sides. And I think he's very, very good at that. And I think we need someone like him in the front.

So I hope that she picks him as her VP pick. But then again, I know he's not like, you know, even in consideration at this time. At least that's what I've that's what I know. Are you leaning towards Trump? Is that what I'm asking? Yes, yes. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, I am more inclined now than ever before in the race to vote for Trump, advance at his side, and not put Harris in the Oval Office. Final question, just going back to previous interviews we've done where you've mentioned not particularly wanting to see Kamala Harris at the top of the ticket, but now it sounds a bit more like you're coming around to the idea that you want to just support the nominee who maybe, correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but maybe just whoever the nominee is that's best positioned to defeat Donald Trump? Yeah, I think that's what it is. I don't know if she is, well, she is the

nominee, whether she's best positioned to defeat him or not. And it's just Trump's discourse has gotten worse. You know, we're hearing things about, you know, if I don't win, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. You know, people are going to go crazy. And a lot of the stuff I'm hearing from him and from J.D. Vance, it scares me. And it scares me more than Ukraine or Israel not getting enough aid. it scares me more than women not being able to get the health care they need. It scares me more than what's going to happen with climate change. It scares me more than what's going on with the border. I mean, when I hear this stuff, I can feel my stomach clench up.

And so that's why I'm just I'm I'm, I, I'm really done with Trump. I really am. I think I'm at the point now where maybe you have to get rid of me because I don't think I'm an undecided anymore. But, um, um, that, that's kind of where I am and I'm going to vote for Kamala Harris as of now and, and, you know, know, hope that she does well. That's it for Episode 6. In our next episode, we will talk with our voters about their thoughts on the first debate between former President Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris.

We'll see you then. The Undecideds is a Tangle Media production. This episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by John Long. Interviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokova, Will Kabik, John Long, and Ari Weitzman. Music was composed and produced by John Long.

For more content from Tangle Media, please go to our website at retangle.com.