Tangle - A TikTok ban.

Episode Date: March 23, 2023

Members of Congress are proposing a TikTok ban. What are the best arguments for and against it? Plus, a reader question about what is happening in Israel. You can read today's podcast here, today’s “Under the Radar” story here and today’s “Have a nice day” story here. Today’s clickables: Quick Hits (0:57), Today’s Story (2:49), Those Opposing Ban (7:20), Those Supporting Ban (11:02) , Isaac’s Take (14:46), Your Questions Answered (18:24), Under the Radar (20:15), Numbers (21:17), Have A Nice Day (21:48)You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here.Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited by Zosha Warpeha. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.Our newsletter is edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo.--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place where we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking without all that hysterical nonsense you find everywhere else. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about a TikTok ban, more specifically, the ban being proposed by Congress, some members of Congress, and being pushed right now by President Biden.

The CEO of TikTok is testifying for Congress today, so we'll talk about that. Before we do, though, as always, we'll start off with some quick hits. First up, a New York grand jury postponed a vote on indicting former President Donald Trump for allegedly using campaign funds as hush money, though the vote could happen as soon as today. Number two, the Fed raised interest rates by a quarter of a percentage point, continuing to battle inflation despite concerns over the banking sector. Number three, President Biden announced a major revamp of the nation's organ transplant system. Number four, Ukrainian President Volodymyr

Zelensky visited Bakhmut, the eastern city that is at the center of some of the heaviest fighting in the war. Number five, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis proposed expanding the Parental Rights and Education Act that restricts classroom instruction on gender and sexual orientation to all grades. This morning, TikTok CEO will make his first ever appearance on Capitol Hill. CEO will make his first ever appearance on Capitol Hill. Today's House hearing on online safety comes as the video sharing app faces intense scrutiny, with some lawmakers proposing a complete ban. In prepared remarks, Chu plans to highlight TikTok's massive reach, while also addressing concerns about safety and security, saying TikTok will firewall protected U.S. user data from unauthorized foreign access and will not be manipulated by any government.

More than 150 million Americans are on TikTok. That's almost half of the U.S. coming to TikTok to connect, to create, to share, to learn, or just to have some fun. This includes 5 million businesses that use TikTok to reach their customers, and the majority of these are small and medium businesses. Some politicians have started talking about banning TikTok. Now, this could take TikTok away from all 150 million of you. Today, TikTok CEO Shouzei Chu is testifying for the first time before a House committee on how the Chinese-owned platform can address security concerns

from Congress. Chu, who is Singaporean, has already shared prepared remarks and passed out a fact sheet on TikTok. TikTok is one of the most popular social media apps in the world. Users can easily upload short edited videos of themselves, complete with music, graphics, and text. Due to the app's algorithm, it is easy for people with small or no followings to go viral and have their content viewed by millions of people. As a result, many of its users have gone from obscurity to ubiquity as TikTok influencers, with thousands or millions of fans who follow them. This has also allowed users to create businesses and make money, and it has facilitated the organization of political protests and grassroots movements both in China and across the world.

In the United States, the app is hugely popular, with 150 million active monthly users. It is especially popular among young users in their teens and early 20s, and has become popular with businesses who use the app to advertise their products and find new, younger customers. But Congress is wary of the app. Lawmakers say it poses a unique threat to United States security because of the Chinese government's close ties to its businesses, and others have argued that the app is harmful to children. TikTok is owned by ByteDance, which also owns a domestic Chinese version of TikTok. There are laws in China that could compel ByteDance to hand over user data to the Chinese government upon request. TikTok has maintained that it is observing U.S. laws and regulations, but a lot of people don't think

that would stop them from obeying an order from Chinese officials. In December, Forbes published an exclusive piece on how TikTok had monitored and tracked its journalists who were reporting critically on the app. TikTok later fired the employees identified in the piece. Earlier this year, the White House gave government agencies 30 days to delete TikTok from federal devices, citing security concerns. More than a dozen countries have banned or limited the app in various ways, or limited the app in various ways, and the Biden administration has told TikTok to either sell the app to someone else or face the prospect of a national ban that would forcibly remove it from app stores, effectively barring new users and limiting access for people who already have the app. Such a ban was first proposed by former President Donald Trump in August of 2020.

Now, a bipartisan bill from Senator Mark Warner, the Democrat from Virginia, and John Thune, the Republican from South Dakota, is gaining momentum in Congress. Meanwhile, TikTok influencers descended on the Capitol this week to make their voices heard and oppose any potential ban. TikTok has also responded by promising to create more walls between U.S. user data and its Chinese ownership, but Chu is expected to face bipartisan criticism at today's hearing. With Chu set to testify, we're going to explore some arguments about TikTok. Since this story does not fall neatly down party lines, we're going to share arguments for and against banning TikTok in the United States, then my take. So first up, we'll start with people who are opposing a ban. Those who oppose a ban

say there are better options, like making it safer for users or forcing a sale. Some argue that TikTok is no more dangerous than any other social media app, and most of the data is already for sale anyway. Others say a ban would needlessly harm creators, new businesses, and marginalized people. The Washington Post editorial board said, don't ban TikTok, just make it safer. President Biden has to weigh how to protect the nation against real threats that some foreign-based companies pose without indulging in national security creep that unnecessarily cuts off foreign investment in the United States, the board said. They point to some justification for concerns, like the recent Forbes article, on a plan for

targeted surveillance of journalists who had reported critically on the company's links to the Chinese regime. The possibility that TikTok staff might target users working in roles that grant them special power, special knowledge, or both is worrisome, which is why Congress was right to ban installation of the app on federally issued devices. Still, this data is hardly secret, and anyone can buy it on the open market, the board said. TikTok is also hardly the only or the most extreme online privacy risk Americans face. And the real issue is information manipulation. TikTok's algorithm promotes or filters out certain content. And if Chinese President Xi Jinping wanted to give a gentle

nudge to videos favoring a certain presidential candidate, he could theoretically pass the dictate to bite dance. The right way to approach TikTok is to assess its susceptibility to this kind of influence and determine whether the government can reduce it without an all-out ban. In Newsweek, Abby Richards said, hands off my TikTok. Calls for a ban are increasing across both political parties, and I built my career criticizing TikTok, Richards said, but Washington has this wrong. While Richards has spent countless hours frustrated with TikTok over allowing disinformation and extremism, she says banning the app is a reckless decision that would ultimately harm the most marginalized in society. TikTok is more like user-generated television than social media, she said,

and it has made it easier to be a content creator than ever before. Because of this, you're more likely to encounter firsthand accounts of news stories than a fact-checked and polished video from a legacy news company, which allows for voices previously excluded to reach unprecedented audiences. From bomb shelters in Ukraine to Black Lives Matter protests in Iran, TikTok offers firsthand accounts from people affected by political issues, and a ban is like applying a dirty used band-aid to the gaping wound that is our broken digital privacy status quo. In USA Today, Jennifer Huddleston said blocking it isn't a good idea. Banning an app could raise significant questions about the First Amendment rights of TikTok's

American users and affect far more than the ability to take part in the latest dance craze, she wrote. A ban would dramatically expand the government's ability to control apps and technologies Americans access and create consequences not just for the companies themselves, but the users who violate the bans. Increased scrutiny and the potential of a ban could also raise a tit-for-tat that leads other countries to ban U.S.-based apps and businesses, and it might also deter foreign companies from expanding in America if they

also do business in China. One study found TikTok does not censor U.S. content and does not collect data in a way that is more of a threat than other social media platforms. These allegations need evidence, not just vibes. Alright, that is it for the people opposing a ban, which brings us to those supporting a ban. Many who support a ban say the security threats are real, and TikTok has already done a few of the things we fear most. Some say a ban should just be the beginning of the fight to better secure Americans' digital privacy. Others say TikTok is an effective propaganda tool that is already having an impact.

In the New York Times, Peter Harrell and Tim Wu said being an open and democratic country does not mean being a sucker, and banning TikTok should just be the start. The security concern is not that we'll be corrupted by goofy videos, but rather that the Chinese government could use the TikTok apps installed on millions of American phones as a form of spyware, collecting sensitive data and personal information, including where we go and what we do, they wrote. Banning it or forcing a sale isn't a bad idea, but focusing only on TikTok would be a showy, inadequate response that does far little to protect Americans' data. Instead, Congress should pass a law to

comprehensively protect American data and security, they wrote. China can and probably does buy data from commercial companies who spy on Americans through our phones, and the Chinese government has also repeatedly hacked its way into the servers of American companies and the U.S. government. The best way to protect Americans' data is legislation to reduce the collection of data and force companies to increase their cybersecurity protections. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal

web, his family's buried history, and whatorth said it's time to ban TikTok. TikTok presents an obvious national security threat, he wrote. TikTok has claimed Chinese government officials don't have access to data, but later admitted that some staff in China can access the data of international users. Since no corporation can exist in China without the express permission of the Chinese Communist Party, only the most naive observer would believe that the CCP could not have access to the personal data of hundreds of millions of TikTok users. That data could be used for blackmail. Plus, TikTok is an addictive and effective propaganda tool. Last year, TikTok

announced new community guidelines which would label any mistrust of the government as misinformation. In 2021, TikTok also announced a change to its U.S. privacy policy, which can include collection of biometric identifiers and biometric information, including face prints and voice prints, Haworth wrote. It's hard to imagine families giving the CCP a video camera in their child's room, so why, with 63% of Americans between the ages of 12 and 17 using TikTok in 2021, are we giving the CCP a window into the lives of our children? In his newsletter, No Opinion, Noah Smith said, of course we should ban TikTok. TikTok sends data about its American users to the

Chinese Communist Party, he explained, and TikTok is probably subject to Chinese-directed censorship that tries to nudge U.S. users into supporting CCP goals. Spying is the easiest to prove because TikTok has admitted tracking journalists' physical movements and sending the data to its Chinese parent company. TikTok can collect face prints, voice prints, browsing history, text messages, and pretty much anything you do on your phone, and that information basically becomes property of the Chinese Communist Party. As for propaganda, ByteDance employees have admitted to being told to highlight pro-China messaging in the English TikTok app and were instructed to ban videos that referenced the

Tiananmen Square massacre and other topics China's government would prefer people not discuss. A study also found TikTok steers users toward Kremlin disinformation about the Ukraine war. TikTok could become really important really fast, and we shouldn't let things get to that point. All right, that is it for people opposing and supporting a ban, which brings us to my take. When Donald Trump proposed this ban back in 2020, and when a reader asked me about it a few weeks ago, I took pretty squishy positions. I initially supported Trump on the call for a ban in 2020, but criticized the sloppiness of the proposal and the mixed signals from the administration. Then, a few weeks ago, I said the language around TikTok was increasingly hyperbolic, but it was admittedly alarming that many governments, including ours, were asking employees to remove it, which made me wonder

what they'd know that we don't. Today, after a few years reading through these arguments and the last week of exploring the issue more earnestly, my position is more firm. I oppose a ban of TikTok. Let me be clear on a few things, though. TikTok has absolutely been used to spy on journalists, and China-based ByteDance has accessed U.S. data, and the app's filters have been used to spy on journalists. And China-based ByteDance has access to U.S. data, and the app's filters have been used to promote China's political positions. Chu's opening statement, which emphasized his Western credentials, that TikTok has a U.S.-based office, that ByteDance's board has three American members, and that TikTok isn't even available in China because it has a domestic version owned by ByteDance was all a bit slippery.

Choose Singaporean background or the ethnicity of ByteDance's board members are irrelevant to me. What I care about are the actions of TikTok and ByteDance. I'm not into the Red Scare nonsense, and we shouldn't need to demonize China or Chinese people to make our point. China is a quote-unquote threat because it is illiberal, it has global ambitions that counter ours, and it competes with us economically. That doesn't make it evil, though its government is doing some evil things. It just means we need to compete too and win on the merits of our products and system. Part of that system is not banning apps we don't like. A strong argument against banning TikTok is that foreign countries may retaliate and start their own bans on U.S. companies. That's a fine point, but it's not quite right.

China already bans Google and Facebook and plenty of other U.S. apps and platforms. The real issue isn't that they might do it, it's that they already do it, and what distinguishes us from them is that we don't. When Russia shuts down a social media platform because the government doesn't like what's being posted there about the Ukraine war, distinguishes us from them is that we don't. When Russia shuts down a social media platform because the government doesn't like what's being posted there about the Ukraine war, it sets our hair on fire, and it should. But when we do it ourselves in the name of national security, it is really, truly not that different. Everyone using TikTok should understand they are making themselves vulnerable. Everyone using their smartphone should understand this too.

I don't have TikTok, and I won't download it despite the fact it could really help my business precisely because the owners of the app have done enough shady stuff to make me a little jittery. Their denials about the relationship between TikTok, ByteDance and the Chinese government are just not true. And teenagers now who will one day be CEOs

or politicians or professional athletes or who knows what else could become very susceptible to blackmail and surveillance. That is my biggest concern. Given that, a great outcome here would be to sell to an American company. I'd hate the heavy handedness of the U.S. government forcing such a sale. But in practical terms, it would be good for our security, good for TikTok users, and good for our values. Short of that, though, banning the app will only create a cascade of new problems, destroy the careers of some entrepreneurial youth, and sacrifice our own values along the way. We can get tough on TikTok, and we should, including by making as many people aware of the dangers as possible. But banning it is a few giant steps too far. as possible, but banning it is a few giant steps too far. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to today's reader question.

This one is from Michael in Sebring, Florida. Michael said, in today's newsletter in the Have a Nice Day section, you listed Israel as being in the top 10 happiest countries. I would like to know how you feel about the current administration there and the political unrest I've been reading about. Could you possibly write about that as a newsletter subject? So Michael, first of all, great question. I'm not sure it'll end up being a full newsletter topic, but happy to briefly share my thoughts here on what is happening right now. I think this iteration of Israel's government is one of the most frightening I've ever seen. Israeli politics are very complicated, and even as a political reporter who follows them closely, I sometimes get lost in the morass. But the

political unrest there is organic, it is widespread, and it is because many Israelis truly believe Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is threatening Israel's democracy with this proposed judicial reform. The government is also now approving bills that will better shield him from being removed from office for being unfit. Anecdotally, I have never heard the kinds of things I am hearing from my friends in Israel like I am right now, some of whom are longtime supporters of Netanyahu but are vehemently opposed to his recent actions. He appears to have returned to office angry, spiteful, and on a mission to impose his will. I don't like any of it, despite appreciating some of his legacy. Obviously, I don't live in Israel, and while I've spent a good amount of time there, I don't want to speak authoritatively about it.

I think the journalist Matty Friedman recently captured the sentiment there in the most moving way I've seen, with his essay titled, I Took Up Arms to Defend Israel, Now I March Against Its Government. The piece includes some links to opposing voices at the end, and I highly recommend it. All right, that is it for our reader question section, which brings us to our under the radar story. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis appears to be backpedaling on his tepid support for Ukraine, now calling Russian President Vladimir Putin a war criminal who should be held accountable. DeSantis, in response to a series of questions about the war posed by Fox News, had described it as a, quote, territorial dispute and appeared to take the stance that the United States should reconsider some of its support for Ukraine going forward. We covered his comments in a full edition of Tangle's podcast and newsletter. Some Republicans

were outraged by his written remarks, which were considered significant given his interest in running for president. In an interview with Piers Morgan, DeSantis claimed his answer had been, quote, mischaracterized, and he said, quote, obviously Russia invaded. They invaded Crimea and took that in 2014, end quote. The New York Times has the story about his change of tune, and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. 2.9 billion is the number of monthly active users on Facebook. 2.2 billion is the number of monthly active users on YouTube.

1.4 billion is the number of monthly active users on Instagram. And 1 billion is the number of monthly active users on TikTok. The watch time limit for users under the age of 16 on TikTok is 60 minutes. The number of TikTok employees who are based in the United States is 7,000. All right, and last but not least, our have a nice day story. One third of patients with untreatable leukemia recently saw their cancer vanish after taking a new experimental drug called Ravuminev. About half responded to

some degree and 18 of 60 saw a complete remission. The patients all had acute myeloid leukemia where mutated bone marrow cells create cancerous white blood cells. The drug targets a common mutation that causes this kind of leukemia. While it is a small study and some patients actually saw their conditions worsen after taking the drug, the extraordinary results are causing new hope for those fighting this cancer. Al Pais has the story and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. Keep an ear out. We are releasing an interview sometime tomorrow, hopefully maybe this weekend.

Keep an ear out. We are releasing an interview sometime tomorrow, hopefully, maybe this weekend. If you want to check that out, make sure you are subscribed to our podcast. Press that subscribe button, which will give you notifications anytime a new podcast is released. As always, you can also go to our website, readtangle.com, to support our work. We'll be right back here same time on Monday. Have a good one. Peace. who created our podcast logo. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.

For more from Tangle, check out our website at www.tangle.com. We'll be right back. holla don't more festive less frantic get deals for every occasion with doordash based on charles u's award-winning book interior chinatown follows the story of willis woo a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond chinatown when he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime willis begins to unravel a criminal web his family's buried history and what it feels like to be in the spotlight interior chinatown is streaming november 19th only on disney plus