Tangle - Another major firing at CBS.

Starting point is 00:00:00 From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and I'd like to start your week with a remarkable story. Last week, I wrote about traveling to North Carolina to celebrate a quote-unquote miraculous run of nine family birth. in a four-week span. I use the word family loosely to include a non-blood-related family I grew up across the street from whom I consider family, and I still think the birthday coincidences are pretty crazy. Well, a friend told me over the phone on Saturday that there's a family in Pakistan who boasts nine people all born on August 1st, a husband and wife, all seven of their children,

Starting point is 00:01:05 none of whom were purposely delivered early. They hold the Guinness World Record for most family members born on the same day. And August 1st is the couple's wedding anniversary. I'm not kidding. As you ponder that genuinely miraculous birthday math, today we're going to cover the 60 Minutes controversy at CBS Plus and under the radar story about a new Trump pardon. Oh, and before we go, do not forget that we are coming to Berkeley Springs, West Virginia,

Starting point is 00:01:34 this weekend. I'll be on the stage with Camille Foster, Andy Mills, and the free press is Cat Rosenfield to talk. about the future of artificial intelligence. Plus, we'll discuss the day's news and take live audience questions. VIP tickets are sold out, but a few general mission tickets are still available. There are more details with the link in today's episode description. All right, with that, I'm going to pass over to Ari Weitzman, our managing editor, who's hosting

Starting point is 00:02:00 the pod with me today, and I'll be back for my take. Thanks, Isaac. First, here are today's quick hits. First, Iran and Israel exchanged air strikes for the first time since a ceasefire went into effect in April. After Israel struck a target in Beirut, Iran launched multiple missile attacks, then Israel struck multiple targets in Iran. President Donald Trump had reportedly asked Israel not to retaliate against Iran amid peace negotiations. Number two, on Monday morning, disrupted commodities markets and stock exchanges are rebounding after Iran announced the end of military operations against Israel. Brent crude prices are now up 1.75% to $94.58 per barrel, after reaching a high of $98,

Starting point is 00:02:50 and the S&P 500 and NASDAQ indices open the morning up after a Friday slum. Number three, former California Attorney General and U.S. Health Secretary Javier Bacera is projected to advance to the general election in California's gubernatorial race. The Democrat Bacera is expected to face Republican candidate Steve Hilton. separately, Los Angeles City Councilmember Democrat Nithia Rahman is projected to advance past Spencer Pratt in the city's mayoral primary. Rahman will face fellow Democrat incumbent mayor Karen Bass in the general election. Number four, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that non-farm payrolls increased by 172,000 jobs in May, exceeding economists' estimates of 80,000 jobs added.

Starting point is 00:03:34 The unemployment rate remained unchanged at 4.3%. And number five, gunmen opened fire at a street festival in Toledo, Ohio, wounding 12 people. Police believe there were at least two shooters, and they are still searching for the suspect. In a statement, last night after his firing, Pelley said that Paramount, the new owner of CBS is trying to curry favor with the Trump administration, and claims that new management recently, quote, instructed me to inject falsehoods and bias into a politically sensitive story, unquote. Pelley says that he ignored and refused those instructions. We're trying to find out exactly what he's referencing there in a statement, a CBS News spokesperson said, quote, there is no political interference at CBS News, not from ownership, not from Barry Weiss.

Starting point is 00:04:28 The only interference is the normal back and forth between editor and correspondent that happens in every newsroom. But the story did not end there. On Tuesday, 60 Minutes executive producer Nick Bilton fired the show's longtime correspondent Scott Pelly following a confrontation during a staff meeting in which Pelley criticized Bilton and CBS News editor-in-chief Bari Weiss. Pellie's firing is the latest shake-up at the show and network since Weiss took the head role in October 2025. Peli and other former correspondents have accused Weiss of interfering in editorial decisions in an attempt to cover the Trump administration in a more positive light. Back up. In December, in one of her first major decisions at CBS News,

Starting point is 00:05:09 Weiss polled a 60-minute segment on Venezuelan men deported to the Terrorism Confinement Center, or Seacod, and El Salvador, hours before the episode was scheduled to air. The editor-in-chief said the segment lacked original reporting, and it needed to include the Trump administration's perspective. But correspondent Sharon Alfonzi claimed the story had been pooled for political reasons. The piece eventually ran in January 26th, and CBS News declined to renew Alfonzi's contract when it ended in May. Four of 60 Minutes' seven correspondents, as well as an executive editor and producer, have now left the show. or been fired during Weiss's tenure.

Starting point is 00:05:47 On Monday, June 1st, Bilton held a 60-minute staff meeting to introduce himself after Weiss hired him to run the program in May. Early in the meeting, Pellie reportedly began questioning Bilton's qualifications and making pointed remarks about Wice's management of the show, suggesting she was murdering it. The next day, Bilton, Pelley, Wice, and CBS News President Tim Sibroski discussed the altercation in a closed-door meeting.

Starting point is 00:06:11 Weiss later said to staff, despite our attempts to engage with Scott Pelly and to find a way back, unfortunately, we weren't able to do so, and so we had to part ways. Pelley rejected Weiss's characterization of the meaning, saying he was stonewalled by the executives. Following the closed-door meeting, Bilton sent a letter to Pellie informing him of his firing, writing, Yesterday, you hijacked my first meeting with staff to disparage me, my qualifications, and my intentions with remarkable insolvility and contempt.

Starting point is 00:06:41 The performative display of hostility enacted in front of the staff instead of a civil and private conversation demonstrated that you have no interest in contributing to the future success of the show. Pelley responded later that day, reiterating his claim that CBS's new ownership under David Ellison's Paramount Skydance was seeking to curry favor with the Trump administration. The collapse of values at the top has become untenable. The leadership of 60 Minutes is no longer recognizable, he wrote.

Starting point is 00:07:10 Pelley also told the New York Times that Weiss was attempting to put her thumb on the scale for the president's version of events. He noted a segment on the two Minneapolis residents killed by federal immigration agents in January, claiming that Weiss asked the producers to portray the protesters as more violent and to characterize Renee Good as driving towards the officer who shot her. Today, we'll share views from the right and left on Pelley's firing and the changes at CBS News. then executive editor Isaac Saul gives his take. We'll be right back after this quick break. Here's what the right is saying.

Starting point is 00:08:04 The Washington Examiner, Joe Contra wrote, sanctimonious Scott Pelly finds out no one is indispensable. Peli made the miscalculation that so many in this business have in recent years. He thought he was indispensable. His contract made him rich. Likes and reposts from his social media posts made him feel powerful. He felt he could challenge his bosses during staff meetings or even publicly, conscious said.

Starting point is 00:08:27 Good for Belton, because if he had allowed Pelley to stay after such a condescending, disrespectful tirade, the entire network would see him as a pushover. But the real tale was Pelley's commencement speech at Wake Forest University in 2025 after Trump won the presidency for a second time. This moment, this morning, our sacred rule of law is under attack. Journalism is under attack.

Starting point is 00:08:50 Universities are under attack. Freedom of speech is under attack. Pelley declared dramatically, Conchre wrote, it's this kind of cheesy, theatrical performance by a 60-minute correspondent and former anchor of the CBS Evening News that helped turn the longtime news magazine

Starting point is 00:09:06 into just another program with an agenda. The New York Post editorial board suggested Pellie got himself fired to set up his next career move. CBS's owners brought in Bari Weiss, a left-leaning centrist as news chief to restore balance. She brought in award-winning journalist Nick Bilton, also no righty, to helm 60 minutes for the same reason, the board said. But Pelley spent his career scoring cheap lefty points. He had no interest in changing his ways,

Starting point is 00:09:34 so he defied management with a pose of standing on neutral principle against the supposed right-wing agenda, then followed his firing with a letter claiming Weiss wanted him to inject falsehoods and bias into his work in 60 minutes. Not that he cited any specifics because he couldn't. Being told you need to get quotes from the other side before a new story is finalized, after all is the reverse of bias, the board wrote. His principles involved lazy, biased reporting that he wasn't going to be able to keep doing. He staged his exit to maximize his chances of getting a new gig doing the same old hack work and will probably succeed.

Starting point is 00:10:14 In National Review, Beckett Adams called Pelley's response to his firing, revealing. Notable about the tantrum thrown by journalists, and a considerable number of elected Democrats was that it was part of a larger connoisse that has run uninterrupted since Bari Weiss took over as the network's editor-in-chief in October 2025. Adam said,

Starting point is 00:10:34 what this long-running outrage reveals what with its boilerplate rhetoric about oligarchies and its vague specifics-free allegations of wrongdoing by Weiss and 60-Minute executive producer Nick Belton is that a lot of people in the news business think of their profession as something akin to a public university. Weiss is obviously trying to run CBS as a business, one with broad appeal and plump profit margins.

Starting point is 00:10:58 Running a successful newsroom today also means accounting for the credibility crisis, which makes sense, given that it is the most pressing issue, Adams wrote. The resistance is rarely any deeper than professional self-preservation, fighting for perks and good salaries and for the freedom to indulge their partisan preferences. We see this in the Pellys and the NPRs of the world and their supporters in media, those who'd like to enjoy all the benefits and prestige of Major League journalism with none of the market pressures or business concerns. Now for what the left is saying.

Starting point is 00:11:44 In The Guardian, Margaret Sullivan said, Pelly stood up for his principles and lost his job. Rather than hearing the truth that Pellie spoke in a staff meeting on Monday, rather than taking it seriously and vowing reform, the bosses treated his remarks as grounds for dismissal. Pelly plainly believes that the destruction of a storied institution is the result and perhaps the point of what his bosses are doing. It started when the chief executive of CBS's parent company,

Starting point is 00:12:10 TechSion David Ellison, named Bari Weiss the top editor of CBS News last fall, Sullivan wrote, Weiss has been a one-woman wrecking ball at CBS News and particularly at 60 Minutes. She meddled with cherished editorial independence, prompting the departures of deeply respected reporters and producers. something Weiss apparently doesn't understand is that a newsroom is a living organism with a culture all its own. That culture doesn't function based only on commands from above. Strict hierarchical control hurts, yes, it can even kill the journalism, Sullivan said. Creative people want to do their work,

Starting point is 00:12:44 which many of them consider a mission, not just a job, in an atmosphere of respect, cooperation, and a certain amount of autonomy. They understand that they take direction from above and that their preferences may be overruled, but their most closely felt ideals cannot be trampled on. In the New Republic, Perry Bacon argued Pelley knew exactly what he was doing and trashing Bari Weiss. I'm not sure if Pelley meant to be fired, but I'm quite sure he meant to create a firestorm and focused the nation on what's happening. Barry Weiss, a center-right activist more concerned by Donald Trump's critics than the authoritarian president himself, has now consolidated power at one of America's three broadcast networks and taken control of perhaps the nation's most

Starting point is 00:13:27 reputable and prestigious news program, Bacon wrote, 60 Minutes isn't one of the nightly news programs that's declining in ratings and relevance or a morning show that alternates between hard news and cooking segments. Its ratings are strong. Its reporting is compelling. What Pelly and former correspondent Cecilia Vega are experiencing isn't unique. A common tactic of authoritarian is to use government power to steer the ownership of news organizations to companies or leaders who are favorable to that leader, Bacon said. That's what Trump has done. He's not telling 60 minutes what to air, but he has ensured the network is run by someone who will do a spitting. And it's likely that CNN will also be owned by David Ellison's Skydance Media and run by Weiss or someone like her. In Slate, Natish Pawwa

Starting point is 00:14:14 wrote, the clock is ticking for 60 minutes. The past year has been one of the rockiest and 60 Minutes' decades-long history. The fact that any of its correspondence can even raise the prospect of the news magazine dying is itself a dire indicator for the future of American journalism, Fawah said. No doubt, the show had made mistakes and errors of judgment over time, while some of its leaders had faced credible accusations of heinous misdeeds and staff mistreatment, and the careful, steadily reported once-a-week format may seem like a dinosaur in this hyper-paced timeline, where deluges of information to cost us every ticking second. But even from a business-minded standpoint, by any hard-minded accounting of costs and time and reach and relevance and adaptability

Starting point is 00:15:00 and return on investment, 60 Minutes was working, Powwow wrote. 60 Minutes staffers have fretted that there are simply not enough people left. Forget about people with experience to properly get the full season produced. It all sounds like less a good faith effort to invigorate a vital news magazine for modern times, and more like an effort to have it fall apart piece by piece. No one remaining on 60 Minutes wants the show to die, but that may not matter if the people in power do. All right, that is it for what the left and the writer saying, which brings us to my take. Yesterday, I spent an hour listening to Scott Pelley's interview with the New York Times.

Starting point is 00:15:53 I came into the interview with a few biases. First, I find Pelley's affect to be a bit pompous. and sometimes overwrought. When I've heard him talk about journalism or CBS in the past, I sometimes feel embarrassed. Like, he mythologizes the importance of journalism in a way that makes all media people seem self-important.

Starting point is 00:16:13 Second, as I've discussed before, I've interacted with Barry Weiss in a professional capacity, and I do not believe she is afraid to criticize the Trump administration. Indeed, much of her and her wife's work at the free press does just that. And finally, likewise, I am of course part of the independent media ecosystem trying to challenge the traditional mainstream giants like CBS, so I figured my view of the situation might more closely

Starting point is 00:16:40 align with hers than Pellies. He was, as I expected, a bit pompous and overwrought. He repeatedly likened the changes at CBS to your spouse being murdered, which caused me to groan aloud as I listened. He defended himself against accusations that he did not love this country with an uncomfortable valorization of his time as a war correspondent, suggesting he'd been, quote, in combat, end quote, much like those in uniform had. And the way he talks about CBS, as if it has been insulated from ideological bias up until now, strikes me as farcical. CBS, like many major news outlets, has a center-left bias throughout its newsroom that is apparent to most honest brokers. Yet, I have to say, I found much of Pelley's version of events credible.

Starting point is 00:17:28 That Pelley confronted new 60 Minutes executive producer Nick Bilton with the allegation that Weiss was murdering CBS during a team meeting seems undisputed. But the closed door meeting he had with Weiss and Bilton is a he said, she said, tale, with both sides claiming they were the ones really trying to reconcile. Some people might think Pelley's open criticism of Weiss is so professionally inappropriate it was caused for firing. But after hearing him out, I actually think he had reasons to stand up and make his case. and Weiss and Bilton should have been better prepared to navigate his objections.

Starting point is 00:18:03 He accused Weiss of trying to inject falsehoods into his story, and he came with a specific, credible example. He claimed Weiss attempted to fundamentally change the 60 Minutes piece on Renee Good at the last minute by including an allegation that Good was driving toward the officer. Like Pelley, I believe this framing is false. As I wrote at the time, the video clearly shows Good turned her wheels to try to drive around the officer before he shot her in the head. Pelly is now the third prominent journalist at 60 Minutes, along with correspondents Sharon Alfonzi

Starting point is 00:18:34 and Cecilia Vega, to allege Weiss attempted to inject political bias into their stories. When it was just Alfonzi, I said, I didn't think one reporter's account of her story being spiked was undeniable proof of CBS carrying favor with the Trump administration. But three reporters alleging the same thing is a more damning portrait of CBS's new leadership.

Starting point is 00:18:55 claims of bias aside, one of Pelley's arguments that moved me most was one of his simplest. What's the meritocratic case for what is happening now? As Pelley put it, executive producer Tanya Simon oversaw an unheard of 9% ratings increase for the program last year, as well as good social media numbers, 2.5 billion video views up 185%. Simon was a CBS lifer whose dad once held the same role, and despite clearly succeeding just the year into the position, she got canned. On the merits, letting her go is pretty much indefensible, and indeed Weiss and company have not really mounted a credible defense for it. For Pelley, Simon's dismissal was even harder to swallow when she was replaced by a tech journalist with

Starting point is 00:19:42 zero broadcast experience. Put differently, Weiss was brought in to be the editor-in-chief of CBS News, and her first order of business seems to be shaking up the organization's most successful and recognizable program. It's hard to justify that as a strictly profit-motivated decision. Pelley further defended the network from allegations that has somehow been frozen in amber since the 1960s and is not adapting to the new age of journalism. Noting that 60 Minutes has had a significant online presence since 2010 and he's shooting TikTok videos on every assignment. Their YouTube presence is massive with 4.1 million subscribers and the program is already going after a younger audience. It's almost as if Barry Weiss and Nick Bilton were sealed in a time capsule

Starting point is 00:20:27 in 1990 and it just cracked open, Pellie said. They've just discovered the internet and they're running around telling everybody how important it is. As I ruminated on Pelley's interview, something occurred to me. The cool, independent, heterodox thing would be to trash 60 minutes as stuck in the Stone Age and dragged Pellie as a pompous self-important stiff as President Trump called him. But what if it's simpler than that? What if he's just right? Pellie is not some Joe Schmo Faker who failed his way to the top. He's a real journalist.

Starting point is 00:21:00 He really has gone to war zones and risked his life for a story. He really has been the face of one of the most successful television programs of all time. Does he deserve some benefit of the doubt, given that after 37 years, many leadership changes and much disruption, nothing like this has ever happened at CBS 60 Minutes? before? And is it really so bad that he cares so much about his job that it feels over the top to other people? I thought about how I'd feel if 30 years from now something like this happened to Tangle, and I imagine I'd be pretty upset too. Even the defense from Weiss and Bilton that Pelley somehow crossed the boundary and confronting the new leadership of CBS is hard to swallow. Isn't this the anti-cancel culture crew? Weiss is supposed to be a champion of dissent and confrontation. Her editorial

Starting point is 00:21:50 Ethos is one that revolves around our country being too sensitive and too divorced from meritocracy. How does that coexist with an outcome where successful producers and correspondence are fired for a semi-public dissent? In the end, Pellie said something that is worth the rest of us considering too. He said the bigger problem than any political influence is just incompetence. Pellie actually supported Ellison's buying CBS and said he was walking on air after meeting David Ellison and hearing him address the newsroom. That might come as a surprise to many liberals who are now in his corner.

Starting point is 00:22:25 Yet Weiss, running the network, Pellie said, was akin to someone handing him the keys to a 747 with 400 people on board and asking him to fly to Paris. I'm going to decline because I don't have a clue, he said. While describing Weiss as a wonderful person, he also said she had no business running an organization this size in a space she didn't understand. Again, maybe Pelley is just right.

Starting point is 00:22:49 Frankly, the view that Weiss is a great person but not a great manager is not far off from what I've heard about her in the industry, which is a view that she's a great person but not a great manager. And that's in the context of a much smaller company at the free press in a space where she is native digital news. Of course, 60 Minutes ratings haven't suffered under Weiss's management to this point. And as someone who actually watches the show, I haven't detected any meaningful shifts in the programming. Even Weiss's much maligned decision to delay a Seacott story in December ended up being a nothingburger of sorts. The new revised program ended up running almost exactly as the original, just with additional statements from the Trump administration. But if I'm looking at this story objectively and trying to decide whose story makes more sense, that Pelley is an impossible to wrangle disobedient employee who cares more about refusing to work for Weiss and Bilton than helping CBS,

Starting point is 00:23:42 or that Pelley is a legitimately concerned TV veteran trying to raise the red flag that his new manager is in overhead. I have to say, I find the latter explanation a lot more credible. All right, that is it for my take. I'm going to send it over to Managing Editor Ari Weissman, who has a staff dissent today. Thanks, Isaac. Here's my dissent for today, which is pretty narrow. I'm aligned with Isaac on nearly all of his take,

Starting point is 00:24:10 but his critique of Weiss and Bilton's handling of Pelley's dissent That's what rings false to me. There are many ways the voice of dissent. Pelly is a media vet, and he knows that. So if I were a longtime pro in an organization like CBS News, and if my goal was to actually change Milton's behavior or to oust him from his role, I'd be back-channeling my concerns or going over his head with them.

Starting point is 00:24:37 The fact that Pelley chose instead to air his grievances in an all-hands meeting indicates that he doesn't trust he can work with leadership to get a workable solution. And as Isaac said, he probably is good reason not to trust leadership to do that. But that doesn't mean his dismissal was unjustified. It looks like Pelley forced Weiss's hand here. When he's making public statements about his former employer and sitting for interviews to trash them,

Starting point is 00:25:03 it's fair to question whether Pelley really wanted to hang on to his job at the organization rather than make 60 minutes itself the story. That's it for my dissent, so I'm going to turn it back over. to myself for the rest of the pod. We'll be right back after this quick break. Thanks, Isaac. Here's an under the radar story for today. On Thursday, President Trump announced he had pardoned former representative Steve Beyer,

Starting point is 00:25:40 Republican of Indiana, of his 2023 conviction for insider training. A jury found that Bayer used non-public information he gained from his job as a corporate consultant to make investment decisions, and he was sentenced to 22 months in prison. However, several current and former Republican lawmakers have appealed to the president on Byers' behalf, arguing that he was the target of a politically motivated prosecution by the Biden administration. Trump cited these appeals in his statement, though he did not offer further detail on his rationale for the pardon. The Washington Post has this story. Here are some numbers that support today's topic.

Starting point is 00:26:22 Scott Pelly has worked at CBS News for 37 years. Pelly has served as a 60 Minutes correspondent for 22 seasons. After Pelley's firing, 60 Minutes has three remaining correspondents. 60 Minutes' average viewership for its 2025 to 2026 season, according to Nielsen, is 9.1 million. And 60 Minutes has been rated as the number one news program in the United States for 52 consecutive seasons. And here's a have a nice day story. Wendy House had a passion for baking, but as a full-time pharmacist with a husband and four kids, she didn't have the time. That changed as her kids started leaving the house. One day,

Starting point is 00:27:08 as she and her husband were walking through Costco and processing their transitional stage of life, Wendy saw a small, pre-made greenhouse and thought, what if I actually sold bread out of that? House bought the greenhouse and started making and selling baked goods like caramelized onion, greyer, sourdough, and freshly baked cinnamon rolls out of it. There's no checkout line or cash register. People walk in, pick out their treats, and pay on an honor system. I started that way because I was just having friends and neighbors come, so I didn't really think much of it, the past said.

Starting point is 00:27:37 Eventually, total strangers started to come. Everybody has been so incredibly honest. NBC News Today has the story. All right, everybody, that's it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to reetangle.com, where you can send them for a newsletter membership, podcast membership, or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both.

Starting point is 00:27:58 We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace. Our executive editor and founder is me. Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Wall. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by managing editor Ari Weitzman

Starting point is 00:28:19 with senior editor Will Kayback and associate editors, Audrey Moorhead, Lindsay Canaanuth and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website at retangle.com.

Tangle - Another major firing at CBS.

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