Tangle - Biden's classified documents.

Episode Date: January 12, 2023

Today, we're covering the classified documents found at a Biden think tank, and the latest news about a batch of documents discovered in his Delaware garage. We've also got a reader question about Democrats and the House Speaker race.You can read today's podcast here, today’s “Story that Matters” here, and today’s “Have a nice day” story here. Read our previous coverage on documents found at Mar-a-Lago here.Today’s clickables: Quick hits (1:26), Today’s story (3:16), Left’s take (6:42), Right’s take (11:02), Isaac’s take (15:55), Listener question (21:17), Story that Matters (23:30), Numbers (24:18), Have a nice day (24:59)You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here.Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited by Zosha Warpeha. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.Our newsletter is edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo.--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum. Some independent thinking without all that hysterical nonsense you find everywhere else. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about the classified documents that were found in President Biden's closet at a think tank where he used to work and some other news reports that dropped last night. Before we jump in, though, a quick heads up about tomorrow. As I mentioned yesterday, we are going to be releasing one of our most popular editions of the year where I go back and review some of the things I wrote. Please subscribe. Go to

readtangle.com slash membership and become a subscriber if you want to get that newsletter in your inbox. Yes, we are still figuring out ways to turn those newsletters into podcasts, and we hopefully will have an update about that for you pretty soon. All right, with that out of the way, we'll jump in today with their quick hits. First up, House Republicans launched a probe into President Biden and his family's businesses. Separately, House Republicans are asking former Twitter employees to testify at a February hearing. Number two, Nassau County GOP officials are calling on Representative George Santos,

the Republican from New York, to resign after fabricating many of the critical elements of his resume. Number three, former White House Press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders was sworn in as Arkansas's governor, becoming the youngest governor in the country and one of the highest profile Trump alumni in elected office. Number four, Russian President Vladimir Putin is replacing a top military commander in Ukraine three months after he placed him in the job. Number five, Representative Barbara Lee, the Democrat from California, announced plans to run for Senator Dianne Feinstein's Senate seat just days after Representative Katie Porter, the Democrat from California, threw her hat into the ring. Feinstein is yet to announce her retirement.

president biden is speaking out for the first time since cbs news learned roughly 10 documents marked classified were found at his former office in washington his comments come as republicans on the house oversight committee move quickly to investigate this morning abc news has learned president biden's legal team has found a second batch of classified documents. Just days after the White House confirmed classified records were found at Biden's former D.C. office last November before the midterm election. Classified material next to your Corvette. What were you thinking? I'm going to get a chance to speak on all this, God willing, soon. But as I said earlier this week, people, and by the way, my Corvette's in a locked garage. On Monday, CBS News reported that approximately 10 classified documents were found at President

Joe Biden's former office at the Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement in Washington, D.C. The documents were from Biden's time as vice president and were discovered by his lawyers in a closet on November 2nd, just days before the election. Biden used the office from mid-2017 until the start of his 2020 presidential campaign. His lawyers notified the Department of Justice in November and then turned the documents over to the National Archives the next day. Biden's lawyers say they found the documents when they were packing files housed in a locked closet to prepare to vacate office space at the Penn-Biden Center in Washington,

D.C., according to Richard Sauber, who is the special counsel to the president. Then, on Wednesday, Biden's aides found more classified documents at a separate location, according to an NBC News report. Since November, after the discovery of the documents at Biden's think tank, aides have been searching for classified documents in other locations he used, according to NBC. At least one batch of additional documents has been found. More details are still emerging. The classification level, number, and precise location of the additional documents was not immediately clear, NBC News said. It was also not immediately clear when the additional documents were discovered and if the search for any other classified materials Biden may have from the

Obama administration is complete. Biden told reporters he was surprised by the discovery and didn't know what the classified documents pertained to. The chair and vice chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee have written to the Director of National Intelligence requesting access to the documents and a damage assessment by the intelligence community, the same process they employed after classified documents were found at Mar-a-Lago earlier this year. In November, Attorney General Merrick Garland asked John R. Lausch, a Trump-appointed U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Illinois, to review how the documents ended up at a Trump-appointed U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Illinois, to review how the documents ended up at a closet at the think tank.

Last year, former President Trump's home residence was searched by FBI agents who found over 100 documents with classified markings, despite having been subpoenaed for their return by the Justice Department. He is now the subject of a criminal investigation for the handling of those documents, some of which were marked top secret. Special Counsel Jack Smith was appointed to the FBI's investigation. You can find our coverage of that story with a link in today's episode description. Today, we're going to take a look at some arguments what the left is saying. The left is focused on the differences between Biden's and Trump's handling of classified documents. Many point to how Biden's team immediately reported the

discovery and turned over the documents in one day, while Trump's team did the opposite. Some say Biden still needs to be investigated in the interest of fairness and security. In the New Republic, Prem Thakur said the situation is nothing like Trump's. The classified documents were discovered by Biden's personal attorneys in his former office at the Penn-Biden Center in Washington, D.C. Fewer than a dozen documents were found, with CBS reporting the number at roughly 10. It is unclear what the documents contain and how sensitive they are, Thacker said. CBS News reported that the documents do not contain nuclear secrets. On the same day the attorneys found the documents, the White House Counsel's Office notified the

National Archives. The documents were handed over this morning. Meanwhile, recall that the FBI's raid on Mar-a-Lago came after numerous attempts by the government to retrieve documents from Trump, Thacker wrote. The raid uncovered droves of documents that included documents from the CIA, NSA, FBI, and materials that described a foreign government's nuclear defense capability. Overall, the government has recovered at least 300 classified documents since Trump left office. Again, Biden's team themselves actively returned the roughly 10 such documents that they found. Based on what we know so far, the number of documents in question and the responses by the pair are radically different, so both cases indeed warrant different treatment.

In MSNBC, Jordan Rubin said that Biden isn't on the same legal planet as Trump. Indeed, if the Biden camp's explanation is true, then it's immediately obvious that there's a difference between the Biden and Trump situations, just from a common sense standpoint, because a recurring theme in the Trump investigation is his failure to turn over documents to the government after being asked for them, while Biden didn't even have to be asked, Rubin wrote. As it turns out, there's a legal significance to that common sense point. Take one of the potential crimes with which Trump may be charged, retention of national defense information under Title 18 of the United States Code Section 793e. Specifically, that law can be used against

a person who, quote, willfully retains such material and, quote, fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it. Based on what we know about Biden and Trump, that's not what appears to have happened with Biden, but it is what apparently happened with Trump, Rubin said. In fact, Biden appears to have done the opposite of willfully retaining and failing to deliver documents. Relatedly, then, he's not vulnerable to obstruction charges like Trump is. And even if Biden appeared to have committed a crime, and to be clear, it doesn't appear that way, we were reminded during the Trump-era investigation by Special

Counsel Robert Mueller that the DOJ has a policy of not charging sitting presidents. that the DOJ has a policy of not charging sitting presidents. In CNN, Stephen Collinson said Biden's scandal eats away at efforts to hold Trump accountable. Biden's own sharp criticisms of Trump's handling of secret intelligence are now coming back to haunt him and opening him up to charges of hypocrisy. While each case will be assessed according to its own legal merits, the possibility that Trump would face criminal action for conduct that will, for many voters, appear to broadly mirror Biden might make any prosecution politically unsustainable, he said. In a separate piece, Collinson also wrote that fairness and respect for the law dictate that Biden should answer many of the same questions that Trump is facing regarding whether he was entitled to the records, why they were not previously turned over,

whether they were securely stored, and how they ended up in his office in the first place. Critics will also wonder why Biden didn't immediately disclose the discovery of less than a dozen documents last fall to the public, given the huge sensitivity of the Justice Department probe of Trump on a similar question, he said. And the president will be sure to face accusations of hypocrisy, given his sharp criticisms that Trump did not take the proper steps to secure classified documents at Mar-a-Lago. Still, even if there are adequate answers to these issues, any distinctions in the severity of the Biden and Trump documents will be obliterated in the political torrent that is already stirring, and with conservative media likely to draw false equivalencies between the two cases.

Alright, that is it for the leftist saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. Many on the right call out Biden's hypocrisy for criticizing Trump and question why this wasn't reported before the midterms. Some argue this will make it much harder politically to prosecute Trump's mishandling of documents. Others concede the differences in the cases but note some of those differences are beneficial to Trump, who was actually president while handling classified documents. In the Washington Post, Mark Thiessen said if Trump's handling of classified documents was irresponsible, so was Biden's. After the Justice Department released a staged photo of classified documents, including some marked top-secret SCI or sensitive compartmented information, which the FBI had spread on the floor

of former President Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate, President Biden was asked on 60 Minutes what he thought when he saw that picture. He said he wondered how that could possibly happen, how anyone could be that irresponsible. Well, the Justice Department has not yet released a similar photo of the classified documents found in a locked closet at Biden's private office at the Penn-Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement, Thiessen wrote. But CNN reports that some of Biden's documents, like Trump's, were top secret and bore the markings sensitive compartmented information, indicating the information was derived from our most sensitive intelligence sources. How could anyone be that irresponsible,

Thiessen asked. The classified documents, which were reportedly found in a manila folder labeled personal, were not just kept at the Penn-Biden Center's D.C. office. That office opened on February 8th, 2018, more than a year after Biden left office. So, where were they kept before then? Who had custody of them, and under what conditions were they held? When it was discovered that Trump had classified documents at Mar-a-Lago, critics said his holding them at his private club threatened national security. Well, what about the Penn-Biden Center? It hosts classes for college students at its D.C. office and has participated in a joint program funded by the Japanese government. Did any of these classes include foreign nationals?

Maybe the Times will now give us a 3D model of the Penn Biden Center, too. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. In Fox News, Greg Jarrett said this could end the case against Trump. Scratch another undoable item off Attorney

General Merrick Garland's bucket list. He can forget prosecuting former President Donald Trump for taking presidential records with him when he departed the White House, Jarrett wrote. It turns out the Attorney General's boss, Joe Biden, did the same thing when he left the Obama administration. Glaring hypocrisy aside, it would be difficult to justify criminally charging one president while turning a blind eye to the other. Legally, it would boomerang. Politically, it would be difficult to justify criminally charging one president while turning a blind eye to the other. Legally, it would boomerang. Politically, it would be poisonous. Monday's revelation that classified documents were found in a private office

previously used by Biden blew a cannonball. in any potential case against Trump. If Garland is foolish enough to proceed anyway, the former president could assert selective persecution as an affirmative defense. No one else had his home raided by the FBI or faced a criminal indictment. But more broadly, Trump's lawyers would argue that the plague of wayward documents is a common occurrence during hasty presidential transitions. Outgoing presidents don't personally pack up their own papers and belongings, Jarrett said. As I pointed out in a column last summer, during the last 60 years, materials have been erroneously categorized and misplaced in nearly

every administration. Transfers rarely run smoothly. That doesn't mean a crime occurred, even where classified records end up in the wrong place. Disagreements over custody can be protracted but are usually resolved amicably. The Wall Street Journal editorial board said that the gods scripting Americans' politics sure do have a sense of humor. Not even George Santos could make up this plot twist, the board quipped. The documents discovered in Mr. Biden's possession include intelligence memos and briefing materials that covered topics including Ukraine, Iran, and the United Kingdom, CNN reports. News analysts are cautioning that this apparent mishandling of material is different from Mr. Trump's retention of hundreds of classified

documents at his Mar-a-Lago home, which ultimately triggered an extraordinary FBI search last year. That's true as far as it goes. Mr. Biden's office had many fewer documents, and he wasn't wrangling with the National Archives for months over his right to keep them. On the other hand, Mr. Biden as vice president had no authority to declassify documents on his own, unlike the president. He also isn't covered by the Presidential Records Act provision that gives former presidents access to documents from their presidential years in cooperation with the National Archives. Mr. Biden had no authority to hold such classified documents at all in a private office, the board wrote. None of this is to say that Mr. Biden should no authority to hold such classified documents at all in a private office, the board wrote.

None of this is to say that Mr. Biden should be prosecuted, despite the Justice Department investigation. But it is a sauce for the gander political moment, and it certainly does bear on whether justice can fairly prosecute Mr. Trump for similar mishandling. All right, that is it for what the right and the left are saying, which brings us to my take. First, it should be noted that most of the commentary above was reported before the latest NBC News story that more classified documents were found in a separate location. I don't think this new piece of information will change the commentary that much, but it does feel like some important context. So there are three things worth addressing here. One is the difference between the cases,

obviously, of Biden and Trump. Two is the political implications. And three is the media coverage. First, from a legal perspective, the differences obviously matter here, and yes, the cases are very different. Biden appears to have immediately notified the proper authorities and is cooperating fully in the matter. Trump spent 18 months delaying, and based on evidence I've seen, obstructing efforts by the feds to retrieve the classified documents that he was holding at Mar-a-Lago. Secondly, Trump had many, many more documents in his possession, roughly 30 times as many given that over 300 classified documents were taken from him during his year-long fight with the National Archives. Trump is also being accused of trying to relocate and conceal

the documents he had in his possession. What favors Trump is that he was the president. His team has claimed he declassified the documents in his possession. While we don't have the evidence yet of him following proper declassification processes, he would have had more authority over such documents than Biden had, and when proper procedure is followed, former presidents are granted access to classified documents under the Presidential Records Act after leaving office. And while we don't have proof that Trump either followed protocol for declassifying documents while he was in office, or procedure for accessing them after he left, neither legal justification would have been available for then-Vice President Biden. The second element

here is purely political, and in that sense, this is terrible news for Biden. He spent weeks criticizing Trump as irresponsible, and the story has been fodder for the Democratic base, which is still salivating to see Trump in an orange jumpsuit. For many Americans who don't follow politics regularly, there isn't really going to be a big difference here. Two presidents broke classified document rules. One had his house raided by the FBI and is under investigation. The other is in the White House. Any criminal charges against Trump are going to look like selective political prosecution to millions of Americans, and if the DOJ chooses to prosecute, Trump's retort has now been gift-wrapped in gold leaf paper. Third, and finally, is the media coverage. One obvious

question here is why this story is only being reported now, when the documents were first reported to the National Archives days before the midterms. My best guess is that Biden's lawyers did a good job keeping it under wraps until now, and the whole thing managed not to leak. I doubt any reporters had their hands on the story, but I wouldn't blame anyone skeptical of the media for thinking this got buried by a friendly press for a few weeks. On the other hand, I will also say this. When I write about media bias, I often point out that some of the most damaging stories ever written about Democratic politicians have come from allegedly biased news sources. For example, a lot of people forget that the New York Times broke the story about Hillary

Clinton's private email server. Now we have CBS News and NBC News breaking back-to-back stories about Biden. Is their coverage a little softer than it'd be if it were Trump? Maybe, but they are the ones who scooped and reported this despite being accused of being in the tank for Democrats. After the Mar-a-Lago raid, I wrote this. 1. If it's just a matter of mishandling classified documents, an indictment would blow up in the government's face. 2. There appears to be good cause for the search based on the evidence available. 3. We still know very little and need to wait for more details. As much as we want the law to apply equally to all citizens, it doesn't and never has. Specifically in the case of handling classified documents, we have seen a huge

disparity in how people are charged. In this case, the actual law is even more complex when the person in question has the highest possible authority to manage those documents as Trump did. Charging a former president over what we know right now would be unprecedented and the political blowback monumental. So, I wrote that in August. Now, number one here is even more true, indicting Trump now after this news would be politically perilous. Number two is also still true. Trump mishandled documents, and he refused to cooperate, and the FBI was justified in searching him. Number three is true about this latest story too. It's still very early and we still need more information. And the final point still holds. Presidents and vice presidents mishandling classified documents

is always much different than citizens. This discrepancy in our laws is worth calling out. If any of us were government employees and did what Trump or Biden did, we'd be in big, big trouble. All that out of the way, here is my take. Get to the bottom of it. Biden, like Trump, should be investigated. We need to know how the documents left the White House, where they've been, and what is in them. Based on the information we have now, this very obviously looks much less serious than what Trump did, and Biden's legal team is very obviously cooperating fully as opposed to Trump's refusal to do so. Either way, I'd be surprised if Trump actually got indicted and I'd than what Trump did, and Biden's legal team is very obviously cooperating fully as opposed to Trump's refusal to do so. Either way, I'd be surprised if Trump actually got indicted, and I'd be shocked if Biden were.

All right, that is it for my take. A quick editor's note, we observe bank holidays, so we are off on Monday for Martin Luther King Jr. Day. If you want to get our Friday edition tomorrow, don't forget to go subscribe, readtangle.com slash membership. All right, next up is your questions answered. This one is from Michael in Westchester, Pennsylvania. Michael said, why, in your opinion, did Democrats not take the opportunity this speaker vote presented to angle for a Republican speaker of their preference? As the vote number approached the double digits, it would have been an excellent time to approach someone they feel is a moderate and can work with them over the next two years or even negotiate with McCarthy for concessions of their own. Okay, Michael, this is a great question. I talked a little bit about this on Twitter, actually. So with 2020 hindsight, I think a best case scenario for Democrats would have been

jumping in around the third or fourth failed vote and doing one of two things. Either one, getting the blessing of Hakeem Jeffries, whom they all voted for repeatedly and unanimously, to switch their votes to McCarthy so that they could have made him speaker without him giving up so many concessions to the far right flank. Or two, find 20 or 30 moderate Republicans and see if they would agree to back a consensus candidate, thus either getting someone more moderate than McCarthy in or scaring the Freedom Caucus into backing off. Of course, that's with hindsight. In the moment, I think the reason Democrats didn't do either of these things is that they genuinely didn't know what was going to happen.

There was a world where McCarthy's bid really did fail. This entire thing dragged on for weeks or months, and Republicans had to go back to the drawing board and find a replacement. In today's political climate, that would have been gold for Democrats, who could have already said Republicans can't govern if they can't even pick their own leader. Or, in a similar scenario, they would have had more leverage when seeking out a potential consensus candidate. The other obvious point is just optics. Democrats voting for McCarthy or another Republican is something that could have come back to bite them. Imagine 20 or 30 Democrats pushing through a Republican speaker who then goes on to say, pass a budget, cutting social security. Next election,

that Democrat gets a primary challenge, and their opponent can say they voted for a Republican House speaker who cut Social Security. Uh-oh. More than anything, I think the entire uncertainty of the whole situation and the possibility it could have gotten a lot worse for Republicans is what froze Democrats in their place. All right, that is it for your questions answered, which brings us to a story that matters. QCELS, a South Korean solar panel maker, said it plans to invest more than $2.5 billion to build factories in Georgia, making it the largest solar panel investment in American history. The company is hoping to take advantage of tax incentives under the recently passed Inflation Reduction Act. QCELS projects

that with the facilities, it will supply about 30% of all U.S. solar demand by 2027. The plant will hire more than 2,000 workers and will be built about 35 miles north of Atlanta. This legislation has, quote, changed the economics of clean energy investment, according to the Wall Street Journal. There's a link to that story in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The percentage of Democrats who believed Trump had classified documents at Mar-a-Lago was 93%, according to a September poll. The percentage of Republicans who believed Trump had classified documents at Mar-a-Lago was 39%. The number of known classified documents that were recovered from Trump since he left office was 300+. The number of known classified documents that Biden's lawyers have turned over so far is 10. The maximum prison sentence in years for knowingly removing classified

documents to place them at an unauthorized location is five, thanks to a law President Trump signed in 2018. And last but not least, our have a nice day section. DeMar Hamlin, the Buffalo Bills star who collapsed on the field during a game 10 days ago, has been discharged from a Buffalo hospital to recover at home. Hamlin fell to the field after making a tackle and suffered cardiac arrest. Trainers had to perform CPR on the field and revived his heart twice before he got to the hospital. The NFL took the unprecedented step of canceling the game.

He was listed in critical condition in the hospital for several days before experiencing a rapid recovery over the last few days. While Hamlin was recovering a fundraiser he runs for children brought in over $8 million of donations from fans. Now Hamlin is headed home. ESPN has the story,

and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. As always, if you want to support our work, go to readtangle.com slash membership. Like I said, after my take, we are off on Monday for Martin Luther King Day, and we'll be back here on Tuesday. We'll see you then. Have a great weekend.

Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited by Zosia Warpea. Our script is edited by Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and Bailey Saul. Shout out to our interns, Audrey Moorhead and Watkins Kelly, and our social media manager, Magdalena Vekova,

who created our podcast logo. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. For more from Tangle, check out our website at www.tangle.com. dot com. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel

a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu.

It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.