Tangle - Defunding the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau

Episode Date: February 12, 2025

On Friday, Office of Management and Budget Director Russell Vought took over as acting head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) and ordered the agency to grant officials from the Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) access to its non-classified systems. Over the weekend, Vought directed CFPB employees to “stand down from performing any work task,” then announced the CFPB’s Washington, D.C., office would be closed through February 14. Ad-free podcasts are here!Many listeners have been asking for an ad-free version of this podcast that they could subscribe to — and we finally launched it. You can go to ReadTangle.com to sign up!You can read today's podcast⁠ ⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠, our “Under the Radar” story ⁠here and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠.Take the survey: Do you think the CFPB should be changed? Let us know!You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Will Kaback, Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply, details at Fizz.ca. Dr. Jordan B. Peterson. An evening to transform your life. If you say the truth and nothing else, you'll have an immense adventure as a consequence. You won't know what's going to happen to you, but the truth will reveal the world the way it's

intended to be revealed. And the consequence for you will be that you'll have the adventure of your life. Live at Scotiabank Arena, March 6th. Get tickets now at LiveNation.com. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening. And welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of our take.

I'm your host, Ari Weitzman, and today we're going to be talking about the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. What it is, what's happening with it, is it getting closed, is it legal? We'll catch you up on all of it. But first, wanted to make sure that you all were aware that we rolled out the ability to bundle your audio and newsletter membership for the first time yesterday. We're going to be offering newsletter and podcast memberships bundled together for $99 a year or less than $9 a month when you buy for the year.

But for the next 24 hours, we're offering a 10% discount on the lifetime of the subscription. That means forever. That price will be $89 a year or savings of 25% on the bundle for the life of your membership. If you're interested, go to retangle.com slash membership to subscribe. All right. I'm going to pass it over to John for a quick hits and today's main topic and I'll be back for my take. Thanks, Ari, and welcome, everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, Mark Fogel was freed from Russian prison after President Donald Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff, negotiated his release.

Fogel, an American schoolteacher, had been arrested in 2021 for cannabis possession and sentenced to 14 years in prison on drug trafficking charges. The Biden administration classified him as wrongfully detained in 2024. Number two, President Trump signed an executive order instructing the heads of federal agencies to work with the Department of Government Efficiency to reduce the federal workforce. Number three, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Canada would pursue retaliatory measures if President Trump's 25 percent tariffs on all steel and aluminum products entering the United States goes into effect next month.

4. President Trump hosted Jordan's King Abdullah II at the White House, where the two discussed Trump's proposal to resettle Gazans in surrounding Arab countries. Abdullah told Trump that Jordan would take in 2,000 Palestinian children with severe illnesses but reiterated his opposition to resettling Gazans en masse. At number five, more than 90 million Americans are under winter weather advisories or warnings this Wednesday, with snow and ice storms forecast for large swaths of the Midwest and East Coast. A National Treasury Employees Union has filed a new lawsuit trying to prevent the Trump administration from shutting down the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. CBS's Natalie

Brand reports this is the latest federal agency that Trump's trying to close in an effort to slash the size of the federal government. On Friday, Office of Management and Bureau Director Russell Vought took over as acting head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and ordered the agency to grant officials from the Department of Government Efficiency access to its non-classified systems. Over the weekend, Vought directed CFPB employees to stand down from performing any work task and then announced the CFPB's Washington, D.C. office would be closed through February 14.

For context, in the wake of the 2007-2008 financial crisis, Congress passed the 2010 Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, establishing the CFPB to review the activity of financial services firms and protect consumers from predatory practices. Before her election to the Senate, then-Harvard law professor Elizabeth Warren proposed the creation of the agency and then served as a special adviser to the Treasury secretary to launch operations in July 2011. The agency's core functions include creating rules to protect consumers from deceptive financial practices, enforcing customer financial protection laws, and investigating consumer

complaints about financial companies. Unlike other federal agencies, the CFPB is funded through money transfers from the Federal Reserve Board of Governors rather than congressional appropriations. Some lawmakers have objected to this funding mechanism for lacking accountability to Congress, and in 2024, the Supreme Court heard a challenge to the system's structure, ruling 7-2 that the CFPB's structure is constitutional. In his weekend email to CFPB staff, Vought instructed agency staff to pause any pending investigations, new rule proposals, and stakeholder engagements, then posted on X that he had

notified the Federal Reserve that CFPB will not be taking its next draw of unappropriated funding because it is not reasonably necessary to carry out its duties. Furthermore, agency employees are reportedly preparing for significant headcount reductions, as only a few hundred of its roughly 1,700 employees have positions that are required by law to exist. Many Democrats have criticized the moves by Vought and Musk, and Senator Warren vowed to fight any effort to shutter the agency's operations. CFPB is there to make sure Elon Musk's new project cannot scam you and steal your personal

data. We will fight it out in Congress, in courts, and across the country," Warren said. Republican lawmakers mostly support the moves, with Representative Byron Donalds calling the CFPB a highly partisan and unaccountable agency that should be eliminated. On Tuesday, two of the CFPB's top officials resigned, stating that they could not continue their work amid the upheaval at the agency. Separately, a union representing employees across dozens of federal agencies filed lawsuits to challenge VOTS apparent shutdown of the CFPB and block Doge staffers from accessing

the agency's records. Today, we'll share perspectives from the left and the right about the recent moves at the CFPB, and then managing editor Ari Weitzman will give his take. We'll be right back after this quick break. FanDuel Casino Daily Jackpots, guaranteed to p.m. with your chance at the number one feeling winning which beats even the 27th best feeling saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Daily jackpots a chance to win with every spin and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario gambling problem call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca select games only guarantee void of platform or game outages occur guarantee requires played by at least one customer until jackpot

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Live at Scotiabank Arena, March 6th. Get tickets now at Livenation.com. All right, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left criticizes the impending shutdown, suggesting it's plainly illegal. Some say the CFPB is a vital defense against predatory financial practices. Others argue the agency is a prime example of government working effectively. In the American prospect, David Day and called VOTS actions illegal. No federal agency has had a bigger target on its back

in the last 15 years than the consumer financial protection bureau. Pro business conservatives are simply offended by an agency with a mission to protect ordinary people, the lowest rung on America's totem pole from financial scams, and they have yearned to litigate, legislate, and intimidate it out of existence," Dayan wrote.

Frustrated in Congress and the courts, MAGA has turned to snuffing out the CFPB by executive fiat. Litigation is likely to get some aspects of CFPB working again, and some unlikely participants may support that litigation. Back in 2023, when right-wing advocates tried to render the CFPB's funding mechanism unconstitutional, mortgage bankers freaked out because they realized that the rules that the Bureau administrates, updates, and modifies are actually critical to smooth functioning of consumer financial

markets, Dayan said. For now, the zealots who welcome this kind of chaos are winning out temporarily, and the agency that has returned over $21 billion to victims of financial fraud, abuse, and deception since its creation in 2010 is on ice. In MSNBC, Helene Olin said closing the CFPB will help Elon Musk but hurt the rest of us. Musk and his lackeys aren't trying to shut down the CFPB because of such stated reasons as attacking the deficit or a combating overbearing bureaucracy. Instead, the attempted shutdown of the CFPB is an overt power grab by Big Tech, and their

gain could result in the rest of us losing much more than almost anyone realizes, Ullin wrote. Wall Street, and now Big Tech, don't hate the CFPB because it's an ineffective waste of money. They hate it because this relatively small agency punches way above its weight. Since the CFPB opened its doors in 2012 with a budget well under a billion dollars a year, it's returned more than 21 billion dollars to Americans, protecting them from big banks abuses, fintech scams, and multitudes

of junk fees. Under Director Rohit Chopra, who ran the agency for most of Joe Biden's presidency, the CFPB not only aggressively protected Americans against the big banks and traditional non-bank financial services, pushing back on excessive check overdraft charges, credit card abuses, and the like, Olin said. No one in this White House appears interested in better or more efficient consumer financial regulation. Instead, the tech titans are seeking to expand their monopolies into financial services,

preferably without the CFPB referees standing in their way. In Slate, an anonymous attorney at the CFPB wrote about the upheaval at the agency. My colleagues and I worked tirelessly to protect the American public from predatory, unfair and illegal practices by bad actors in the market for consumer financial products like credit cards, mortgages and student loans. We are a relatively small group of government employees

who enforce federal financial laws, including by bringing cases against those who violate them, the author said. However, since the Doge takeover and in the past 72 hours, Vought and Musk have worked hand in hand with unnerving speed to strip the CFPB for parts and bring its work to a screeching halt. The CFPB now stands as an ineffective watchdog, chained, muzzled, and left to starve in its kennel

so that it can no longer guard the public. This is profoundly sad for the employees like me, who have worked zealously to protect the American public from frauds and scams day in and day out," the author wrote. I remember the misery that the Great Recession inflicted on American consumers. I'm worried for what may happen now that the CFPB can no longer guard against the next crisis, thanks to Vought, Musk, and their unaccountable wrecking crew. All right, that is for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right mostly supports shutting down the CFPB, with many saying that the agency no longer fulfills the mission it was created for. Some worry that dismantling the CFPB would strip protections for conservatives who are

targeted by financial firms for their political views. Others say Trump and Congress should work in concert to eliminate the agency. In reason, Veronique de Rugy wrote, abolish the CFPB. Picture this. A government agency that operates with little accountability, spends taxpayers' money without congressional oversight, and enforces regulations based on flimsy theories about consumer behavior. That's the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, an institution so misguided in both mission and execution that it does not deserve mere reform. It should be abolished outright, De Rugge said.

Heralded as the savior of consumers after the 2008 financial crisis, the CFPB has instead become a regulatory monster that stifles innovation and drives up costs for the very people it claims to protect. What was the CFPB given all this power to do? In theory, it is to protect and empower consumers, promote fair and competitive markets, and stabilize the financial system. In practice, it has reduced access to credit cards for lower-income consumers and jacked up bank fees and mortgage costs. CFPB bureaucrats love price controls and excessive regulations,

and they despise financial arrangements that they view as unconventional," De Rugge wrote. At the heart of the CFPB's misguided decisions is its leaders' apparent belief that consumers are helpless, irrational beings incapable of making good financial decisions without bureaucratic intervention. In Unheard, Sohrab Amari said Musk's efforts to eliminate the CFPB are a danger to Trumpism. Last month, then-CFPB director Rahit Chopra proposed to restrict financial institutions from dropping customers based on their political or religious views.

If adopted, the rule would have been the most politically significant of Chopra's many reforms. After all, right-wing activists have been the most frequent victims of debanking," Amari wrote. Yet in the weeks leading up to the president's inauguration, powerful tech barons vented rage at Chopra's agency. Musk, whose Department of Government Efficiency is dramatically remaking the federal government, gloated about the agency's apparent demise with a tombstone emoji, adding CFPBRIP. Unless Team Trump changes course, the plutocratic self-dealing policy choices will become impossible to ignore, and the Trumpians will end up betraying the millions of working-class and union households who polled for them in last year's elections seeking immigration sanity and economic protection,

not to make it easier for big finance to surveil and debank them, Amari said. Trashing to CFPB would do nothing to address the structural power imbalances which bedeviled Trumpian America and which compelled it to vote for him in the first place. On the contrary, it would exacerbate the imbalances. In Fox News, Patrick Brenner argued Trump should delete Elizabeth Warren's failed experiment once and for all. The CFPB was initially sold as a watchdog for consumer interests. In reality, it's evolved into an unchecked behemoth that stifles competition, raises

consumer costs, and meddles in industries far beyond its intended scope, Brenner said. The Supreme Court's 2024 ruling upholding the CFPB's funding structure emboldened Chobra to escalate the agency's crusade against financial institutions and fintech companies, but the ruling didn't endorse the agency's wisdom or legitimacy. Congress created the CFPB, and Congress, or better yet, a motivated Trump administration, can dismantle it. The CFPB's recent attempt to expand oversight of Big Tech's payment platforms, including Musk's ex-payments, was a glaring example of its mission creep.

While initially designed to oversee financial products, the agency under Chopra increasingly sought to police non-financial businesses, threatening to strangle competition and restrict consumer access to innovative financial tools, Brenner said. The CFPB is not a long-standing pillar of American governance, but a failed experiment of Senator Elizabeth Warren's progressive regulatory vision. Its unchecked authority, lack of congressional oversight, and hostility towards financial markets

make it a danger to businesses and consumers. All right, let's head over to Ari for his take. All right, that's it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. Just to put my cards on the table to start here, I entered the workforce during the Great Recession, so I've always been partial towards more regulation in the financial sector than less. Accordingly, I've regarded the CFPB somewhat optimistically, but if I ask myself one simple question, I'm not so sure of the answer. If you wanted the government to do what the CFPB does today, is this the best way to

do it? To answer, let's go Is this the best way to do it? To answer, let's go back to the beginning. After the 2008 financial crisis, the electorate was hungry for reform. In 2011, 83% of adults said that Wall Street needed stricter regulation, and 67% said bankers would break the law without robust controls. Into this arena stepped a first-time president who had won a sweeping electoral victory on the message of hope and change. To supply the clamored for financial reform, he took up an idea from a Harvard bankruptcy and commercial law professor named Elizabeth Warren to authorize a new agency that would provide financial oversight, one that could

centralize regulatory enforcement into one bureau, with funding draws insulated from annual congressional appropriations under the neutral oversight of the Federal Reserve. Then, in 2010, President Barack Obama signed the Dodd-Frank Act into law, bringing now Senator Elizabeth Warren's idea to life. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, or CFPB. In its 15 years of life, the agency has taken on payday lenders, junk fees, and late charges.

At the same time, it has withstood legal challenges to its constitutionality from Republicans who see the agency as overzealous and bereft of adequate oversight. In short, the CFPB has been one of the biggest wins Democrats have achieved in the last 20 years, delivering reform at a time when voters wanted it, the 08 financial crisis, fixing its sight on a villain most voters still despise, Wall Street, and cleverly designing it, a mark

of ingenuity rarely seen from Congress, to withstand the entirety of President Donald Trump's first term. So, of course, it would be a target for Republicans,, and to be fair, they have good reason to complain. The regulations the CFPB has passed have resulted in some serious unintended consequences. After the CFPB limited junk fees, banks increased credit card interest rates to recoup their losses. When it imposed rules on mortgage providers, the availability of mortgage credit regressed. It has also created solutions to problems that didn't need to be solved, like recently

when it regulated financial comparison tools. The CFPB has certainly benefited consumers to the tune of tens of billions of dollars, but Republicans are right to question whether the costs of the downstream effects of its work are greater than its benefits. Not only does the CFPB advance a model of economic regulation that conservatives generally decry, but the ingenious funding structure Warren proposed for it is also undeniably dubious. The president is allowed to fire the head of the agency, but cannot remove or restructure

the agency itself. The executive branch can install a new head who asks for no funding, but it can't eliminate its funding mechanism entirely. Congress can control the agency's funds, but not through the normal appropriations process. The CFPB is simply an outlier among the executive agencies. Not only that, but the agency's purview

could be amply covered by existing departments that regulate financial institutions, like the Federal Trade Commission, the Securities and Exchange Commission, or the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, or FINCEN. While its structure is undeniably unusual, it is not unconstitutional. Its funding is authorized by pre-existing legislation, meaning the same process that makes its funding stand out among executive departments makes its spending fit right in with two-thirds of the federal budget. As Justice Brett Kavanaugh said about the CFPB during last year's Supreme Court challenge, Congress could change it tomorrow, and there's

nothing perpetual or permanent about this. Furthermore, it's simply not the shadowy agency many critics paint it to be. It publishes semi-annual reports that are accessible and transparent, and Congress has held multiple hearings to examine its work. Still, being technically legal is a pretty low bar to clear to justify its structure. I doubt Democrats would be very happy if this Congress enshrined a deportation task force funded by a set proportion of the Department of Homeland Security's budget that's untouchable by the normal appropriations process. This all leads me back to my initial question. If you wanted the government to do what the CFPB does today, is this the best

way to do it? It is a duplicative agency. Its operational scope is this concerningly broad. And even though I personally have no problem with its funding mechanism, I mean, if Congress wants to change the way it's funded, it can pass a piece of meaningful legislation that isn't an omnibus appropriations bill, you know, for a change. But still, it is an outlier among federal agencies. Merging the CFPB with FinCEN, giving it a healthy operating budget subject to congressional

appropriations and retaining the smooth public interface that the CFPB currently presents strikes me as a pretty good path forward. But that isn't the path forward that Musk, Vaught, and Trump are following. Vaught is within his rights to request zero dollars to operate the agency, something that is not a coup, or even that novel. Mick Mulvaney did the same thing in 2018. I'm less certain that abruptly downsizing the non-essential staff is legal, but the courts are working that part out now. Musk's role, however, and again, is unhelpful at best and downright corrupt at worst. Remember, the CFPB is investigating

and regulating companies Musk runs, and his involvement with the Bureau is as clear an ethical breach as I can imagine. So now what happens to the CFPB's ongoing investigations? Who's going to be responsible for enforcing regulation of the consumer financial market in the meantime? All told, the ongoing saga with the CFPB reminds me of another ongoing saga over an Obama-era reform – the Affordable Care Act. Republicans have wanted to repeal and replace Obamacare since it was enacted, and for just as long haven't articulated a replacement plan.

Republicans have not suggested how they'll cover CFPB's bases while downsizing the Bureau to oblivion. And at the same time, Democrats who support the Bureau have to reckon with the fact that the ingenious defenses in Warren's design are prompting equally ingenious attacks. As National Review's Noah Rothman put it, Democrats and Republicans talk past one another, with the latter emphasizing the outfit's legal impropriety and the former focusing on all the noble works enabled by that unseemliness. For me, perhaps my question of whether the current CFPB is the best tool for the job it's tasked with isn't the most important one to ask.

Rather, are VOT and Musk the right people to fix it? That's a nymphatic no. Unless Congressional Republicans can proffer their own tools to complement VOT's acts, then tying the CFPB's hands is going to do a lot more harm than good. it's going to do a lot more harm than good. We'll be right back after this quick break. 27th best feeling saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Daily Jackpots, a chance to win with every spinner and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem, call 1-866-531-2600

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With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at Fizz.ca. All right, that's it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. Today's question comes from DAK from Providence, Rhode Island.

DAK asks, I've been noticing that the comments section over the past few months has become increasingly volatile toward you, Tangle, and even other Tanglers. This is very evident when you report on Trump where it seems no matter what position you take, you will receive a significant backlash and Tanglers will attack each other over differing views. I do sometimes get caught up in it as well. It's disheartening. How has this affected your reporting on Trump and other contentious topics? If you agree, what are your feelings towards this trend? Do you feel that Tangle's current format is adequate for such hot topics? I'm answering this question myself today, so thanks for the question, DAK.

And first of all, Tanglers is awesome. I fully support that term. I love that there's a name for active Tangle community members. Second of all, I think I know what you mean. As we transition from campaign coverage to administration coverage, we're writing about Trump the elected official for the first time for most of our readers. Trump the candidate has theoretical policies, and those are impossible to discuss dispassionately. With Trump the elected official's actual policies, it's impossible. At the same time as Trump has taken office we've also been blessed by a huge influx of readers and listeners.

Not only did we increase our membership by over 100,000 subscribers in one month after we were featured on This American Life, but since executive editor Isaac Saul left for paternity leave, we've added another 20,000. executive editor Isaac Saul left for paternity leave, we've added another 20,000. Everyone that's here is drawn to the same promise of tango that we've had since before I started working here as a lowly contract editor for Isaac's one-man show. That is to engage with differing perspectives and provide a source of news that everyone can trust, regardless of their politics. To do that, we pursue a model that is very different from most normal news outlets. We cover one big story a day, including a broad range of opinions,

in as much depth as we can muster. Then, we read your feedback and respond to as much as we can. And I've seen firsthand that new readers are surprised that when they shout at us, they're shouting at us, and not into a nameless void. In a media climate that typically plays to a base and ignores criticisms, that when they shout at us, they're shouting at us and not into a nameless void. In a media climate that typically plays to a base and ignores criticisms, it takes time for readers to adapt to the Tangle culture we're trying to grow.

One of direct but civil disagreement. If you're newer to Tangle and you disagree with something we write or topic selection or anything else, here is my one ask. Instead of passionately voicing your disagreement in the comments, which you can go to at readtangle.com if you want, I just ask that you ask a question instead.

Ask yourself, what if there's something I might be missing? Why would someone disagree with me? And then, politely, ask a question. DAK, this question asker, is in the comments every day. I'm sure he and other Tangliers would be happy to engage. Thanks Ari. Here's your Under the Radar story for today, folks. The Trump administration has decided not to release White House visitor logs during the president's second term, continuing the policy of his first administration.

Presidents are not required to make this information public, as visitor logs are subject to the Presidential Records Act and do not need to be released until five years after a president has left office. Furthermore, past administrations have historically kept them private. However, presidents Barack Obama and Joe Biden released visitor logs during their terms in response to requests from groups on the right and the left, though some of Biden's records were incomplete. Now, Trump has opted to discontinue the practice during his term. The Washington

Examiner has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The CFPB's funding request from the Federal Reserve for its budget in fiscal year 2011 was $161 million. The CFPB's funding request from the Federal Reserve for its budget in the fiscal year 2023 was $721 million. The annualized growth in spending by the CFPB between 2011 and 2014 was 76.9%. The annualized growth in spending by the CFPB between 2020 and 2023 was 10.2%.

The approximate amount of monetary compensation, principal reductions, canceled debts, and other consumer reliefs stemming from CFPB enforcement actions and supervisory work is $21 billion as of December 3, 2024. The estimated number of consumers or consumer accounts eligible to receive relief from the CFPB's enforcement and supervisory work is 205 million. And the approximate number of consumer complaints sent to companies for response by the CFPB is 6.8 million. And last but not least our Have a Nice Day story. Adam Simmons and Michael Brown are co-founders of Home Kitchen, the first fine dining restaurant

run entirely by homeless people. As part of its effort to change the public's perception of what it means to be homeless and combat economic barriers of homelessness, the restaurant provides each staff member with a prepaid travel card for transportation, funds for a catering qualification, and of course, a wage that covers their basic needs. We're here to do a job, build ourselves up, an employee named Jeremy shared. Good, Good, Good has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. Alright, that is it for today's episode.

As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership, or both. We are currently on the last day of our bundled package subscription where you can receive 20% off for the life of your membership. But again, today's the last day. So if you haven't yet already, this is the best opportunity to get the best pricing that we offer. We'll be right back here tomorrow for Ari and the rest of the crew. This is John Lull signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace.

Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Duke Thomas. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Will Kavak, Gellysol, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bikova, who is also our social media manager. The music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go check out our website at readtangle.com. That's readtangle.com.

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Say the truth and nothing else You'll have a immense adventure as a consequence You won't know what's going to happen to you But the truth will reveal the world the way it's intended to be revealed And the consequence for you will be that you'll have the adventure of your life. Live at Scotiabank Arena, March 6th. Get tickets now at libnation.com.