Tangle - Dismantling the Department of Education.

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

President Donald Trump is reportedly planning to sign an executive order directing Education Secretary Linda McMahon to facilitate closing the Education Department. McMahon, who was confirmed by the Senate last Monday, said she does not know when President Trump will sign the order, but affirmed that he is "crystal clear" on the move.Ad-free podcasts are here!Many listeners have been asking for an ad-free version of this podcast that they could subscribe to — and we finally launched it. You can go to ReadTangle.com to sign up!You can read today's podcast⁠ ⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠, our “Under the Radar” story ⁠here and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠.Take the survey: What do you think should happen to the Department of Education? Let us know!You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our Executive Editor and Founder is Isaac Saul. Our Executive Producer is Jon Lall.This podcast was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Senior Editor Will Kaback, Hunter Casperson, Kendall White, Bailey Saul, and Audrey Moorehead. Our logo was created by Magdalena Bokowa, Head of Partnerships and Socials.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Details at fizz.ca. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening. And welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul. And on today's episode, we're going to be talking about the education department and President Donald Trump's stated plans to abolish it or eliminate it or dismantle it.

It's an interesting one. Worth fleshing out a bit, I think, what some of the meaning is. So we're going to do that today. And before I send it over to John, we do have a quick correction. We have to issue last week's edition on Trump's address to Congress. We wrote that we do spend close to $20 million on what looks like an Arabic version of Sesame Street. However, our own source wrote that only an Iraqi early childhood

development program received funding from USAID, not the Arabic version of Sesame Street. So it was basically the same name of Sesame Street, but it was an early childhood development program. I don't know if that would make it much better for a lot of people who are worried about this kind of spending, but we missed the suggestion from an editor. And many thanks to the readers who wrote in with this correction. This is our hundred thirty second correction entangles two hundred ninety two week history and our first since February 25th. All right. With that, I'm going to send it over to John for today's main story and some views from the left and the right. And then I'll be back with my take.

Thanks, Isaac. And welcome everybody. Hope you had a wonderful weekend. I just wanted to say real quick that we've been getting a bunch of really kind and positive emails from people, even though feedback and criticism is actually quite positive. It's said out of such devotion and passion about the podcast that it's hard to read it any other way. So for those of you who haven't had a chance to write in, you're not sure where to do it, you can reach out to either staff at readtangle.com or you can reach out to me personally at john, j-o-n at readtangle.com. And I look forward to hearing

from you guys. Tell us what you think about the podcast. Feel free to share ideas of things you'd like to see in the future. And if you want to share any positive messages, I'm always thankful to hear them. And mine for you is, it's a new week, it's a fresh start, so let's bring our best energy and have a fruitful and positive week. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, House Republicans released a 100-page stopgap spending bill that would fund the federal government through September.

The House and Senate must pass a spending bill by Friday to avoid a partial government shutdown. 2. Canada's Liberal Party elected Mark Carney, an economist and former governor of the Bank of Canada, as its party leader and the country's prime minister. Carney will replace Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who announced his resignation in January, this week, and Canada will hold national elections in October. 3.

U.S. employers added 151,000 jobs in February, an increase from January but below economists' expectations, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The unemployment rate increased from 4% to 4.1%. 4. The Trump administration will cut off $400 million in federal funding to Columbia University over its purported failure to address anti-Semitism on campus. The administration's task force to combat anti-Semitism is reviewing over $5 billion

in Columbia's active federal grants. Separately, federal immigration agents arrested a Columbia student who organized pro-Palestinian demonstrations on campus. Reportedly, the agents were under orders to revoke his green card. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said it is preparing to conduct a large-scale study into the potential connection between vaccines and autism, citing the increase in autism diagnoses since 2000. The president is expected to sign an executive order

as soon as this week, dismantling the Education Department. President Trump says this is all about sending the power back to the state so they can make their own decisions about education. One problem with that though is that the Department of Education actually doesn't have any say right now in what is taught in local schools. By law, that is left to the states.

President Donald Trump is reportedly planning to sign an executive order directing Education Secretary Linda McMahon to facilitate closing the Education Department. McMahon, who was confirmed by the Senate last Monday, said she does not know when President Trump will sign the order, but affirmed that he is crystal clear on the move. For context, the Education Department is responsible for dispersing billions of President Trump will sign the order, but affirmed that he is crystal clear on the move. For context, the Education Department is responsible for dispersing billions of dollars in federal funding to colleges and schools in the United States, as well as managing federal student loan programs.

The agency also operates the Office of Civil Rights, which issues guidance on how civil rights laws should be applied in schools and regulate services that schools provide for students, such as disability accommodations. Although federal law prohibits the government from dictating what schools teach, ED sets policies for enforcing existing federal laws and oversees the accreditation program for colleges and universities.

President Trump has criticized ED for its efforts to forgive student loans and broaden sex discrimination education protections to include sexual orientation and gender identity. On the campaign trail, then-candidate Trump called for a virtual closure of the department, saying that he wanted individual states to have full control of their education systems. Trump also claimed that ED was indoctrinating students on social and cultural issues. Shortly after her confirmation, McMahon sent a message to agency workers telling them to prepare for their final mission and outlining her core priorities as agency head.

This restoration will profoundly impact staff, budgets, and agency operations here at the department, she wrote. In coming months, we will partner with Congress and other federal agencies to determine the best path forward to fulfill the expectations of the President and the American people. McMahon also commented that President Trump couldn't be any more clear when he said he wants me to put myself out of a job. However, any attempt to close ED or offload its core functions would likely require an act of Congress, which established the department as a cabinet-level agency in 1979 and allocates its funding every year.

In 2023, Representative Thomas Massey, the Republican from Kentucky, introduced a bill to eliminate ED, but the bill failed with 60 House Republicans voting against the proposal. McMahon has acknowledged that dissolving the agency requires an act of Congress, which would take 60 votes in the Senate. Democrats have criticized Trump's plan, holding a press conference on Thursday to address the president's calls to shutter the agency.

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer claimed that Trump wants to dismantle the department to allow for new tax breaks, while Senator Bernie Sanders said that closing the agency would disproportionately impact low-income and working-class families. Today, we'll share perspectives from the right and the left on the plan to shut down ED and then Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this quick break. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan.

You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at Fizz.ca. BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw. Relax your shoulders.

Take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. For a limited time, visit betterhelp.com slash random pod for one free week of online therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. All right, first up, let's start with what the right is saying. The right mostly supports abolishing the Department of Education, with many saying the department stands in the way of academic progress. Some argue that McMahon should partner with Doge to identify and eliminate ED's wasteful practices. Others say Republicans are wasting their time with this effort. In the Wall Street Journal, Kimberly A. Strasill argued,

the Department of Education needs to be abolished to get kids learning again. Never has a department been more deceptively titled. To listen to this week's wailing, the Federal Education Department is the beating heart of our nation's schools. Its demise a straight line to an illiterate nation. The reality? Our federal education bureaucracy takes no part in the daily, hard-fought grind of teachers. It doesn't step in classrooms, interview teachers, or

debate pedagogy. It doesn't meet with parents, coach sports, or set bus schedules," Strassel wrote. The department's only job is to act as the keeper of the education treats. Every year, these federal masters get some $80 billion to dispense on good behavior. Thus, today's inane system, in which kids from Taos to Tallahassee are held hostage to a counterproductive maze of federal rules that dictate dollars yet waste resources and stymie local innovation," Strassel said. And while congressional action is needed to abolish the department, lawmakers need presidential

leadership to turn it into a movement-wide objective. Short of that goal, Mr. Trump has a unique opportunity to work in lockstep with reform-minded governors to devolve as much education power as possible back to where it belongs, local, local, local. In City Journal, Christopher F. Ruffo explored how to dismantle the Department of Education. The next stage of the conflict between Trump and the bureaucracy looks to be the Department of Education, which next stage of the conflict between Trump and the bureaucracy looks to be the Department

of Education, which the president has correctly identified as a hotbed of left-wing ideologies, Ruffo wrote. The administration must first understand that the Department of Education administers three primary activities, college student loans and grants, K-12 funding, and ideological production, which includes an array of programs, grants, civil rights initiatives, and third-party NGOs that create left-wing content to push on local schools. It is not possible or desirable to shut down all three functions at the same time.

Rather, Secretary of Education nominee Linda McMahon, in partnership with Musk and Doge, should handle each separately, Ruffo said. To maintain Americans' approval, the Trump administration must explain that college students will still be able to receive loans, K-12 schools will still receive funding for special education programs, and civil rights will still be protected by the Department of Justice. This ensures that the argument can be focused on eliminating deeply unpopular and divisive left-wing ideologies. In the Washington Post, Ramesh Panuri wrote,

It's a waste of time to abolish the Education Department. Conservatives have opposed the department since its birth during the Carter administration, seeing it as federal overreach. President Ronald Reagan and House Speaker Newt Gingrich both tried to end it and failed. Now Trump has revived the campaign. But the prospect is a lot less momentous than anyone involved in the debate wants to admit, Panuru said. The main reason?

Most proposals to eliminate the department don't end the programs at houses, they just send them to other parts of the government. Even some of the most vocal opponents of the department do not wish to discard its substance. Betsy DeVos, the Education Secretary during Trump's first term, recently outlined an abolition plan that would reassign many of the department's responsibilities to other agencies, Panuri wrote. A more productive strategy would look at achievable reforms to student loans, better enforcement of civil rights on college campuses, and an expansion of school choice, some of which Trump is already undertaking.

Continuing these efforts would not be quite as exciting as demolishing a federal building, but it might leave Republicans with more to show for their work. Alright, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left mostly supports the Department of Education in its current form, arguing that it plays a vital oversight role in America's state-driven education system. Some say Republican and Democratic states alike would feel the pain of eliminating the department. Others argue ED's core function would be better managed

by other agencies. The Washington Post editorial board wrote, it's simple why the US needs the education department. President Donald Trump has neither the authority nor sufficient congressional majorities to eliminate the education department as he has long promised. So instead he's exploring ways to dismantle it

from the inside by slashing its workforce and doing away with some of its functions, the board said. This surely pleases members of Trump's base who considered the department to be a wasteful bureaucracy in need of axing. But the truth is the agency, though by no means perfect, plays a vital role in ensuring that all states provide a decent education to American children. States already drive education policy. The federal

government provides only about 14 percent of K-12 funding, and decisions about what schools teach are made by the states and local school districts. The Education Department's purpose, in contrast, is to help level the playing field for disadvantaged students. It delivers aid to schools that serve such children, and it enforces federal civil rights laws that forbid discrimination based on race, gender, and disability in public classrooms," the board wrote. Yes, these responsibilities require a fair amount of bureaucracy, and it's important that the agency not waste taxpayers' money on administration, but any cuts made in the name of efficiency should not short-circuit

the department's important work." In the nation, Jack Schneider said eliminating ED would blow a big hole in the budgets of red states. The standalone Department of Education was established by a congressional act with more than 100 cosponsors in the House and Senate, 26 of whom were Republican, Schneider wrote. Look past the rhetoric and the surface-level activity of the Department of Education and focus instead on its budget.

Roughly $15 billion each year goes to schools serving low-income students, mostly urban and rural communities. Another $15 billion or so goes to support students with disabilities, and more than $50 billion each year goes to Pell grants and subsidized loans to defray the cost of college. It's what allows tens of millions of kids to live and learn in dignity.

Saving the Department of Education, if it can be done at all, will require convincing ordinary Republicans that they have something to lose. And they most certainly do. Look for instance at Florida's Sarasota County, where nearly 60% of ballots were cast for Trump last November. In that same election, 84% of voters opted to raise their own property taxes to support

local schools. And according to the grassroots group Support Our our schools Sarasota stands to lose big if the Department of Education gets the acts 12.3 million dollars for special education 11.4 million dollars for schools serving low-income students and more than four million dollars in other federal funds. In the Chicago Tribune Paul Wallace asked what would it mean if the U.S. Department of Education is abolished? Restoring control of education to the states is not necessarily wrong or misguided. Federal oversight has often created bureaucratic obstacles rather than actually improving student

outcomes. A more effective approach would be to hand over federal education funds to states in block grants with clear guidelines on how that money must be used. Meanwhile, the DOJ is far better equipped than the DOE to enforce civil rights protections, Vallis said. Similarly, the Treasury is better suited to manage and oversee the federal student loan program. The DOE's Office of Post-Secondary Education primarily functions as a check-writing entity,

facilitating the unchecked expansion of student loans while rubber-stamping accreditation bodies with minimal rigor. Any post-secondary programs deemed valuable by the new administration or mandated by Congress should be transferred to the Treasury, which can more effectively oversee taxpayer dollars. Taxpayer subsidies to higher education institutions that fail to serve students effectively should be reconsidered," Vales added. If the DOE's primary objective was to improve education outcomes, it has spectacularly failed. Today, reading and math scores are near historic lows despite dramatic increases in funding. Real accountability is long overdue. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take. Alright, that is it for the Left and the Right are saying, which brings us to my take. So before exploring this idea in earnest, I want to just take some time to flesh out

the meaning of calls to eliminate or dismantle or defund the Department of Education from the president's conservative allies. Right off the bat, I was surprised to see that the actual people with the plans weren't calling for outright removal of the programs and funding that comprise the bulk of the department's actions. For instance, Project 2025's playbook for ending the Education Department calls on the president to redistribute the various congressionally approved federal education programs across the government. That is, to preserve the Education Department programs but simply move them to other governmental

departments. Betsy DeVos, the former Education Secretary, who has also called for abolishing the programs similarly just explained how her plan would reassign the department's responsibilities to other agencies. Linda McMahon, the current education secretary, says federal money will keep flowing directly to the states and that it is not the president's goal to defund the programs, but only to have it operate more efficiently. So the plan is to defund the education department, but the money will keep flowing.

We'll dismantle the education department, but really redistribute its programs across the government. We'll eliminate the education department, but actually just reassign its various responsibilities to other agencies. When you add that actually eliminating the education department will require an act of Congress and 60 Senate votes. I'm just not exactly sure what actually ends up happening. And I don't think it's clear at all.

My opinion on this idea has actually changed a lot over the last decade or so. The Education Department has existed for my entire life. So when Trump first began pushing this idea in his 2016 campaign, it sounded totally crazy to me. To fund the Education Department? Who would teach? Who would create the curriculum?

How would our public schools stay funded? I was subsequently surprised to learn then that the education department had very little to do with the curriculum or employing teachers and that its role in the public school funding is fractional. It was only promoted to a cabinet level agency in 1979. And it's worth noting that as recently as former president Obama's term,

it faced organized opposition from teachers. When you read what the Education Department actually does and listen to what the Trump administration is really calling for, it all begins to sound less absurd. The Department of Education is responsible for about 14% of all funding that goes to our K-12 schools. And at the same time, the department's reach into state and local education has gone incredibly far. Through the power of the purse,

the education department now wields a great deal of influence over how parents, teachers, and schools behave. At the same time, a lot of what the education department does could be easily moved to other departments. For instance, I think it's pretty easy to argue that the education department's office for civil rights could be moved to the department of justice. Some writers, like Cato's Neil McCluskey, have made straightforward arguments

that we don't need a federal education agency when the federal government isn't allowed to regulate education, and that the department itself is neither competent nor effective. At the very least, I think one of the Education Department's biggest responsibilities, its federal student loan programs, has gotten completely out of control. When higher education costs have exploded and the president responds to those costs by forgiving hundreds of billions of dollars in student debt, moving that responsibility somewhere else makes sense. Writers on the left and right have made the case that the treasury would be better suited to manage and oversee the program and I'm inclined to agree with them. All things considered, my general view

is that the education department is not really emblematic of a thriving successful expansion of federal government. While trying to delete it with Musk level tact or care would be a disaster, I also think Congress, if it wanted, could significantly reduce its role in American life, turn over its responsibilities to other federal agencies and streamline a lot of the work it does as a department.

The problem with the current debate is that doing so wouldn't really reduce the size of the federal government, nor would they save all that much money either. Instead, they'd just create a whole lot of disruption, risk interrupting popular services, and probably lose the political debate in the public square, all to simply pass on one department's responsibilities to others.

On top of all that, this administration rightly views the education department as ideologically captured by the left and trying to break up all of its functions across government can miss a simpler, more straightforward opportunity to just push the ideological tilt of the agency back toward the center. In other words, they could simply use the existing department to push for more school choice

and student loan reform rather than rolling a grenade into the building. That might be less work and offer more results. Whatever course they take, I think it's safe to say that even the administration isn't sure where this is going. The White House recently pulled the signing of an order to end the Education Department over fears of public blowback, and they've yet to explain how they'll do much of anything when 60 or so Republicans in the House voted against similar proposals as recently as 2023. As Ramesh Ponnaru noted, even splashy one-sentence legislation to terminate the Education Department wouldn't end federal funding for public schools or other programs Congress has authorized. For now, I think it's safe to say Trump is muddling a lot of promises and providing very

little clarity on what the Education Department's future really is. We'll be right back after this quick break. With the FIZ loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today, conditions apply, details at Fizz.ca.

Better Help Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now wherever you are to unclench your jaw. Relax your shoulders. Take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self-care. Imagine what you could do with more. For a limited time, visit betterhelp.com

slash random pod for one free week of online therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. All right. That is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Brett in Memphis, Tennessee. Brett said, is it true that anyone who received a pardon from either President Biden or Trump is prohibited from taking the fifth if called to testify by Congress or the Justice Department? If so, could the pardons backfire on either side by testimony coming out? And what are Tangles thoughts on the likelihood of this?

Okay, so there's three questions here. First, can someone who was pardoned by federal crime still plead Fifth Amendment protections against self-incrimination if that person is subpoenaed to Congress? Mostly yes, they can. The Fifth Amendment can be invoked by any individual or organization

in response to any individual question in any legal testimony, be that during a felony, civil misdemeanor or congressional hearing. The only constraints placed on the right against self-incrimination is that it only applies to testimony, not say giving a blood sample. It must be supplied promptly to an individual question

as opposed to a blanket declaration, and it must protect against a potential criminal investigation. Second, can someone pardon by the president plead the fifth? According to the Supreme Court precedent from as far back as 1896 in Brown v. Walker, since the threat legal jeopardy no longer exists, the Fifth Amendment does not preclude a witness from answering questions related to crimes for which they were pardoned. Therefore, someone like Anthony Fauci could be called to

testify before Congress. And if he ignores the subpoena or dodges questions on anything that happened from 2014 to 2024, he can be found in contempt of Congress. The caveat to that caveat is that it only applies to federal crimes. So he could still plead the fifth to questions that could open them up to state level prosecution.

Third, is it likely that President Biden or Trump accidentally opened the door to congressional subpoenas? It's tough to say, given how difficult it is to predict the political future, but the Republican House calling Fauci or General Mark Milley to testify is certainly easy to imagine. It's harder to imagine any pardoned witness get out of jail free card and hand dodging testimony

so egregiously that they would risk contempt of Congress. All right. That is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Thanks Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. Utah governor Republican Spencer Cox said he will sign a bill that bans the use of fluoride in public water systems, making Utah the first U.S. state to enact such a ban. According to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, roughly 72 percent of the

U.S. population on community water systems received a fluoridated water in 2022, though Cox said half of his state already does not have fluoride in the water. Most public health agencies and doctors support some amounts of fluoride in public water to prevent cavities and tooth decay. However, some prominent critics, including Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert F. Kennedy Jr., have pushed to end the practice, arguing that high fluoride exposure is linked to neurodevelopmental problems. It's got to be a really high bar for me if we're going to require people to be medicated

by the government," Cox said. The Wall Street Journal has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. Alright next up is our numbers section. The year Congress created the first Department of Education as an agency to collect information and statistics about the nation's schools was 1876. The year the Department of Education was demoted to an Office of Education following concerns that it would exercise too much control over local schools was 1868. The budget and number of employees, respectively, of the Department of Education Office of Education in the 1860s was $15,000 and 4.

The percent of funding for public K-12 education provided by the federal government is 13.6%. The approximate amount of student loan debt for roughly 43.2 million recipients managed by the Department of Education as of September 2023 is $1.6 trillion. The current number of ED employees is 4,178, making it the smallest cabinet-level agency. The amount spent by ED in fiscal year 2024 was $268 billion, the sixth most of any federal agency. And the amount of ED spending in fiscal year 2024 that went toward federal student aid is $160.7 billion. And last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story.

After Joshua Clark lost his home in Hurricane Ida and experienced the fallout from wildfires in California He set out to help address the devastation caused by natural disasters Clark created Ark container homes which builds natural and durable container homes meant to survive extreme weather These homes are fireproof fully insulated and retail from $39,997 to $69,997, with portions of sales in California going to community fire brigades. Our mission is simple, provide homes that stand the test of time, delivering unmatched durability, comfort and peace of mind, Ark's website states.

Good Good Good has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to retangle.com, where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership, or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow

for Isaac and the rest of the crew. This is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by Duke Thomas. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Will Kavak, Gellysol, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bikova, who is also our social media manager. The music for the podcast was produced by Diet75

and if you're looking for more from Tangle please go check out our website at reedtangle.com. That's reedtangle.com. BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw. Relax your shoulders. Take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self-care. Imagine what you could do with more.

For a limited time, visit betterhelp.com slash random pod for one free week of online therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.