Tangle - Donald Trump's gag orders.

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Starting point is 00:01:00 From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place where you get news from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of Isaac's take. I am your host for today, John Law. Hope all of you had a nice weekend or were able to find at least a few moments of joy. On today's episode, we're going to be talking about the two gag orders that have been placed on former President Donald Trump. Before we get into all that, we're going to start off today, as always, with our quick hits. First up, Israel continues to carry out airstrikes in Gaza, as well as at two airports in Syria and a mosque in the West Bank that was purportedly used by militants. Separately, the U.S. shot down cruise missiles fired at Yemen that were believed to be headed toward Israel.

Starting point is 00:02:08 Two of the 212 hostages being held by Hamas were also released back into Israel. Number two, independent video analysis done by the Wall Street Journal and the Associated Press concluded that the rockets that struck Al-Ahly Arab Hospital were fired from inside Gaza. Number three, nine Republican contenders are now in the running for House Speaker after Representative Jim Jordan of Ohio was voted out as the nominee. Number four, Trump advisor Kenneth Chesborough took a plea deal in the Georgia election fraud trial, becoming the third person to plead guilty. Number five, Travis King, the U.S. soldier who was

Starting point is 00:02:46 returned to the States after crossing into North Korea, was charged with desertion and other crimes, including assaulting officers and possessing sexual images of a child. And we have breaking news for you. A federal judge has just issued a partial gag order on former President Donald Trump in his election interference case. She will now restrict the former president from speaking about special counsel Jack Smith, the court, its staff, and potential witnesses. However, he is not restricted from speaking about Washington, D.C. and the jury pool sharing criticisms of the Biden administration or statements that he believes the case is politically motivated. A judge in New York fined former President Donald Trump $5,000 for violating a gag order in his civil fraud trial. Judge Arthur Engeron had ordered Mr. Trump to delete a social media post attacking a court staffer, but it stayed on the Trump campaign website.

Starting point is 00:03:56 New at 11, a gag order on former President Trump has been lifted, but only temporarily. A federal judge in Washington froze the gag order today. temporarily. A federal judge in Washington froze the gag order today. Attorneys for Trump want the gag order lifted until the appeals court respond to his motion to have it thrown out entirely. Former President Donald Trump has been put under gag orders in two separate trials where he is a defendant. In a civil fraud trial on Friday, Judge Arthur N. Garan fined Trump $5,000 and floated the idea of jailing him for defying a partial gag order that required him to remove a social media post criticizing the judge's law clerk. In a separate federal case on the accusations Trump tried to illegally undo his 2020 election

Starting point is 00:04:37 loss, federal judge Tanya Chutkin barred Trump last Monday from verbally attacking prosecutors, potential witnesses, and participating government staff. Pointing to social media posts calling special counsel Jack Smith a deranged lunatic and a thug, Judge Chutkin said she wouldn't allow Trump to launch a pre-trial smear campaign against prosecutors. On Friday, hours after Trump was fined for violating the partial gag order in the civil lawsuit, Chutkin temporarily lifted her own gag order while Trump is appealing it. Issuance of the gag order, in the Chutkin case in particular, has ignited a debate about free speech rights

Starting point is 00:05:13 and the degree to which a judge should be able to limit Trump's activities as a defendant during a presidential campaign. After Chutkin handed down the gag order, Trump's defense team quickly objected with a scathing public statement. By restricting President Trump's speech, the gag order eviscerates the rights of his audiences, including hundreds of millions of American citizens who the court now forbids from listening to President Trump's thoughts on important issues, the defense wrote. Chutkin replied that Trump can still criticize the Justice Department and assert claims of innocence, but he can't smear prosecutors or likely witnesses in a way that could spur his supporters to threaten people involved in the

Starting point is 00:05:49 case. Today, we're going to break down some of the arguments from the left and the right, and then Isaac's take. First off, we'll start with what the right is saying. The right is opposed to the gag orders in both cases, arguing they amount to a restriction of Trump's constitutionally protected speech. Some concede that Trump's comments about the cases have been inflammatory, but say a gag order isn't the appropriate response. Others criticize both Judge Chutkan and Judge Engorn for abusing their power. The Wall Street Journal editorial board questioned, how can Trump be

Starting point is 00:06:36 ordered not to talk about Mike Pence's role on January 6th? Judge Chutkan is right that no court would put up with Mr. Trump's broadsides if he were any old defendant, the board wrote. Yet there has also never been a criminal defendant like Mr. Trump who remains, in spite of it all, the leading political opponent of the sitting president. Mr. Trump will be permitted to attack former Vice President Mike Pence, who's running against him, but he may not criticize Mr. Pence about the events in the case. That restriction sounds like core political speech and different from insults toward court functionaries. Our guess is that Mr. Trump welcomes the gag order, notwithstanding his protests. It fuels his main campaign theme

Starting point is 00:07:14 that Republicans should vote for him because he is a martyr for them, the board added. What many of Mr. Trump's critics don't understand is that most Republicans don't like the former president's churlish behavior. What they like even less, however, is the idea that Mr. Trump's fulminations against Mr. Smith might be reason to jail him. In PJ Media, David Harsanyi wrote, Hate Trump all you like. The gag order is still wrong. I understand the disdain some conservatives feel for the former president. I share the sentiment. But if you're cheering on a judge who's inhibiting political speech on rickety grounds, you're no friend of

Starting point is 00:07:49 the democracy or the constitution, Harsanyi said. Who is Chutkin to dictate the contours of a presidential candidate's political speech? What if one of the participating government staff or a family member is compromised by partisanship? Moreover, preemptively suggesting that without gagging, Trump will engage in a smear campaign is as prejudicial to the case as any of the inflammatory things Trump has thrown around. The Justice Department now plays a big part in Trump's campaign for the presidency, and probably his legal case as well. If the state's accusations can be spread throughout the media before a trial, why can't the defendants speak openly as well?

Starting point is 00:08:25 In the name of fairness, Chutkin contends that Trump does not enjoy unfettered First Amendment rights because he might intimidate witnesses. It's already illegal to intimidate witnesses. Charge him if he does it. Laws already exist to cover all the other premises Smith has used to rationalize the gag order. In National Review, Andrew C. McCarthy called Engeren's gag order dubious. Trump's remarks were offensive but constitutionally permissible. The First Amendment protects obnoxious speech, political speech, and obnoxious political speech. Trump is engaged in an election campaign in which his opponents, their supporters, and the media are uninhibited in terms of what they may say about the case against him. He has the right to argue that the state's lawsuit is a political

Starting point is 00:09:09 vendetta and that the elected Democrat judge is in on it. Let Trump rant. If Greenfield and Schumer want to avail themselves of the defamation laws, they have that right. I'd suggest the best way to deal with Trump's provocations is to ignore them rather than draw more attention to them by vehement denials," McCarthy said. It is also worth observing that Engeren is largely responsible for this circus, not just because of his mugging for the cameras. Not content with telling Trump he had no hope, Engeren's 35-page opinion oozes with contempt for him. It is one thing to rule against a litigant.

Starting point is 00:09:41 Engeren's adjective-rich opus teems with scorn. Alright, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left is critical of Trump's behavior, but mixed on whether the gag orders

Starting point is 00:10:01 are the right course of action. Some say the gag orders could play into Trump's strategy of framing himself as the victim of political harassment. Others contend that Trump's comments have been egregious enough to warrant a targeted gag order. In The Atlantic, David A. Graham wrote about Judge Chutkin's impossible choice. The order appears narrower than what prosecutors sought and allows Trump to continue attacking the Justice Department, President Joe Biden, and others, including Chutkin herself, as long as his comments do not directly bear on the case, Graham said. things that she believes could corrupt the proceedings or intimidate witnesses, as the government alleges he has done. That would either erode the court's ability to police every defendant, or else it would suggest that Trump doesn't have to follow the same rules as everyone else.

Starting point is 00:10:52 Judge Chutkan has said Trump's campaign rhetoric has no place in the courtroom, but the campaign rhetoric is not meant for her. It's meant to influence voters and convince them that Trump is the subject of political persecution, Graham said. This leads to more impossible choices. First, she'll have to rule on what falls afoul of the gag order and what doesn't. Second, she'll have to find ways to enforce any violations she does find. His campaign will be happy to portray any attempt to do so as more evidence of political persecution. In the Los Angeles Times, Erwin Chemerinsky said, Chutkin's gag order may be satisfying, but it isn't constitutional. Although I often wish that Donald Trump would shut up, he has a constitutional right not to.

Starting point is 00:11:35 A federal judge went too far in restricting his free expression Monday when she imposed a gag order on the former president, Chemerinsky wrote. I certainly understand Chutkin's desire to limit such speech, and this is obviously a unique case with no similar precedents. The Supreme Court has long held that court orders prohibiting speech constitute prior restraint and are only allowed in extraordinary and compelling circumstances. It is impossible to imagine that Trump's attacks will change how the prosecutors behave. And given all that Trump has said and all that has been said about the events of January 6th, it is inconceivable that Moore's speech will do much more to prejudice prospective jurors, Chemerinsky added. The judge

Starting point is 00:12:15 imposed a gag order on Trump because his speech is often unpleasant and offensive. But that is simply not a basis for restricting free speech under the First Amendment. We may loathe what Trump says, but we must defend his right to say it. In the Washington Post, Jennifer Rubin argued, if ever a defendant deserved a gag order, it's Donald Trump. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it

Starting point is 00:12:56 feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. If this were any other American, even another candidate for office, the court would be compelled to act. But we've heard the apologists for Trump. the court would be compelled to act, but we've heard the apologists for Trump. The Justice Department and the courts are trampling on Trump's First Amendment right and interfering with the 2024 election. A gag order would make matters worse.

Starting point is 00:13:53 Implicit is the recognition that Trump's campaign is about maligning the judicial system, casting aspersions on the rule of law, and threatening people. But, of course, a perverse campaign strategy cannot be deployed as an excuse for wreaking havoc on the judicial system, Rubin said. The former president's defenders appear to believe Trump should derive special treatment by virtue of his decision to run for office, a blatant attempt to cast any prosecution as political persecution. Their argument gives the back of the hand to the principle that there is one standard for all in our judicial system. gives the back of the hand to the principle that there is one standard for all in our judicial system. Worse, these Trump enablers cavalierly ignore the very real danger he imposes to judges,

Starting point is 00:14:30 prosecutors, court personnel, and witnesses. It amounts to legal nihilism that places Trump's desire to return to office above the interests of the rule of law and the safety of others. Alright, that is it for what the right and the left are saying, which brings us to Isaac's take. As a reminder, these are Isaac's thoughts, and I am just reading them in the first person. This is a really tough one for me, because it exists at the intersection of two competing ideals I care a great deal about. The first is that Trump should be treated like any other criminal defendant. As I said when Trump's first indictments came down, I was compelled by the argument made by Jonathan Katz. Prosecute them all. Better to hold everyone's feet to the fire, from Clinton to Trump, than only some people. And better to make all the rich and powerful people in our country feel like they operate under the same laws as everyone else.

Starting point is 00:15:31 Fundamentally, that means treating all people, even former presidents, with the same even hand we would want everyone else to be treated with. Putting aside that many of Trump's defenders viewed the charges as politically motivated in the first place, they'd also argue that it is unfair to limit his political speech more than his political opponents, especially during a presidential campaign. But my point is more about how he gets to be a criminal defendant. Does he get to do a bunch of things nobody else would ever be permitted to? Like posting threatening and disparaging things about judges and clerks on social media? My answer is no, obviously not.

Starting point is 00:16:06 He should be treated the same as any defendant, which justifies a gag order. At the same time, I'm generally inclined to always support more speech. It may be that a standard is being evenly applied to Trump, but that the standard is overbearing. And furthermore, in Trump's specific case, issuing a gag order creates two problems. First, a broad gag order in the New York civil suit or the election fraud case could legitimately hamper Trump's campaign for president. And while some people may say that that's the price he pays for January 6th, saying the issue is as simple as he made his bed, now he has to lie in it, seems wrong to me. Trump is innocent until proven guilty, and I don't like the way

Starting point is 00:16:45 it feels to imagine his speech being limited while he remains legally innocent. Second, the nature of the Chuck and Gag order in particular is broad in a way that strikes me as alarming. For instance, she said that Trump can't criticize Mike Pence about the case related to January 6th, which creates a situation where Pence is free to criticize Trump on the campaign trail, but Trump is limited in how he can reply. Again, he made his bed. Again, innocent until proven guilty. Ultimately, I think Trump has clearly stepped across lines he shouldn't be allowed to, and the feeling of a gag order on him makes me a little squeamish. But I do see some middle ground here. The best case scenario is that the judge's threat reels in some of the more outrageous things Trump has said

Starting point is 00:17:30 or done, like posting the social media account of a clerk in the civil fraud case. There are lines that no defendant should cross, and judges are right to protect witnesses and staff members from mobs that Trump is capable of kicking up against them. But we still need to tread carefully. Not only do we want to limit the ways in which judges or courtrooms can limit people's speech, that goes for everyone, not just former presidents. Both of these judges also risk further martyring Trump the more they try to silence him. Their goal should be to walk that line while keeping the integrity of the case intact, which means ensuring witnesses can testify and members of the court can do their job without fear of reprisal. All right, that is it for Isaac's take, which brings us to your questions answered.

Starting point is 00:18:20 This question comes in from an anonymous reader who writes, I feel that in recent years America's influence in South and Central America has diminished, that China has slowly crept into the area, and that can and will raise questions about the U.S.'s strategic position. What are your thoughts on this? Here's Isaac's response. First, my expertise is in American politics, and while that comes with some knowledge on global affairs, China's investment in South America is a whole different ballgame. So that's just to say that when it comes to geopolitics, international diplomacy, and military maneuvers related to

Starting point is 00:18:55 that region, that's not quite in my wheelhouse. But I picked this question for a reason, which is to emphasize how maneuvering for influence is the way that mature economies generally fight each other. There's been a lot of focus on all-out armed conflict recently. Russia and Ukraine, Azerbaijan and Armenia, Israel and Palestine. But for the U.S., we typically pursue a strategy of asymmetric warfare these days. We usually don't get involved unless we have an enormous advantage, and that's true for a lot of other major countries too. That means we spend most of our time jockeying to guarantee enormous advantages in areas where there could be conflict. A good example of this is Taiwan. Right now, the U.S. and its allies are attempting to control China's coastline so we can have an asymmetric advantage in hypothetical conflict. This is the strategy of defending the first island chain.

Starting point is 00:19:46 Malaysia, the Philippines, Japan, and South Korea are allies in that chain. Both countries know that, which is why the competition for power or influence over Taiwan is so important. That is part of the game China is playing in Central and South America. Some Central American countries recognize Taiwan, which hurts China's diplomatic efforts to control the island. So China offers trade and investment in return for just ignoring Taiwan, which wins them influence in countries that are close to their largest adversary, the U.S. For China, that's a win-win. With a long-term view, the U.S. government has been aware of this investment

Starting point is 00:20:22 arms race for several years and has already been responding. But in the short term, when you add in immigration messaging and aid delivery, the strategy gets complicated. I'm not entirely sure what the government's next move will be, but the inroads China has made will change the regional dynamics for the next few decades, and I imagine there will be plenty of competition between the two countries going forward. All right, next up is our Under the Radar section. The war between Israel and Hamas has already generated a spike in misinformation and deceptive posts being shared on social media, and the problem is particularly acute on one platform, X. NewsGuard, a company that tracks acute on one platform, X. NewsGuard, a company that tracks misinformation on social media, published a report last week that identified a common set of false or unsubstantiated claims about the conflict that had been viewed more than 100 million times globally on X in just one week.

Starting point is 00:21:29 Further, these posts are overwhelmingly being published by verified accounts, those who pay $8 a month to receive a blue checkmark on their profile that had historically conveyed legitimacy. After analyzing the 250 most popular posts about the war on X that included prominent false or unsubstantiated information, NewsGuard found that verified users were behind 186 or 74% of them. The platform's verification system has turned out to be a boon for bad actors sharing misinformation about the Israel-Hamas war. For less than the cost of one movie ticket, they have gained the added credibility associated with the once-prestigious blue checkmark and enabling them to reach a larger audience on the platform, NewsGuard's report said. Fast Company has this story and there's a link, NewsGuard's report said. Fast Company has this story and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The amount New York Attorney General Letitia James is seeking to recover from Trump in civil court for fraudulently overvaluing his assets is $250 million.

Starting point is 00:22:26 The amount by which Trump is alleged to have falsely inflated his net worth is $2 billion. That's according to A.G. James' lawsuit. The amount of time a Truth Social post from Trump that was found to have violated Judge Engren's gag order remained on Trump's campaign website after it was ordered to be taken down is 17 days. The maximum fine Judge Chutkin could theoretically impose for violations of a gag order is $1,000. The maximum prison sentence Judge Chutkin could theoretically order for violations of a gag order is six months. The year Trump's federal trial on conspiracy charges related to the 2020 election is scheduled to begin is 2024.

Starting point is 00:23:08 And last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. In Clackamas County in Oregon, a simple idea is turning something dirty into something clean—harvesting natural gas from natural waste. In the summer of 2020, workers at Clackamas County's water treatment facility could see the towers of flames were closing at Clackamas County's water treatment facility could see the towers of flames were closing in on the wastewater treatment plant. Power plants were failing all over the state, and if the water treatment facility lost power, it could flood the Willamette River with untreated waste and cause untold environmental damage. While the

Starting point is 00:23:39 facility wasn't harmed by the fire and the Willamette was spared, the incident highlighted how storing power on-site could build resiliency into the system. Since August 2021, the plant has been pumping out renewable power produced from methane, a natural byproduct of human waste decomposing in an oxygen- free environment. By turning human waste into power, other facilities like the one in Clackamas County can become energy generators instead of consumers, while creating clean water that's returned to the local ecosystem. Good Good Good has this story, and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you want to support our work, please go to readtangled.com. And if you haven't already, consider signing up for a membership. Just a friendly reminder from a heavily biased YouTube editor that we have a YouTube channel. And our latest video posted is an interview with Christopher Dowling McGill about surviving conversion therapy.

Starting point is 00:24:46 Dowling McGill about surviving conversion therapy. It's a very engaging and powerful interview. Christopher gives his own personal account. He shares some stories, some facts. It's definitely worth checking out. Isaac will be back tomorrow. And in the meantime, I hope you're having a great Monday and that it's a nice start to your week. And we will talk to you again tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited by John Law. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bukova, who's also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. For more on Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website.

Starting point is 00:26:05 We'll see you next time. a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu Thank you.

Tangle - Donald Trump's gag orders.

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