Tangle - FULL EPISODE - The Friday Edition: Yes, I’d like to briefly defend Gavin Newsom.

Episode Date: March 21, 2025

California’s Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom recently launched a podcast called This is Gavin Newsom. The show is advertised as a way for Newsom to sit down with a wide range of political thinkers, with a special emphasis on MAGA personalities who see politics very differently than Democrats do. So far, it’s living up to its billing.Ad-free podcasts are here!Many listeners have been asking for an ad-free version of this podcast that they could subscribe to — and we finally launched it. You can go to ReadTangle.com to sign up! You can also give the gift of a Tangle podcast subscription by clicking here.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our Executive Editor and Founder is Isaac Saul. Our Executive Producer is Jon Lall.This podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75 and Jon Lall. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Senior Editor Will Kaback, Hunter Casperson, Kendall White, Bailey Saul, and Audrey Moorehead.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Annali Ashford and Dennis Quaid star. I am not responsible for what my dad did. Let's go on how you hoped. Happy Face, new series now streaming exclusively on Paramount+. From executive producer, Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit

of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and this is me defending Gavin Newsom. So in case you guys somehow missed it, California's Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom, he's doing something unforgivable. He, get this, hold on to your hats here, he's having conversations with people he disagrees with. And worse, worse yet, worst of all, he's not even informing them how wrong their worldviews are. Gavin Newsom recently launched a podcast called This Is Gavin Newsom. The show is advertised as a way for Newsom to sit down with a wide range of political thinkers with a special emphasis on MAGA personalities who see politics very differently than Democrats do. So far, it's living up to its billing.

Newsom has already interviewed conservative activists and Trump's Gen Z whisperer Charlie Kirk, conservative commentator Michael Savage, and Steve Bannon, the longtime MAGA mogul who was recently released from prison and has been fully and totally branded as a deeply evil racist hate monger. Newsom's project has rightly sparked a lot of speculation about his intentions to hop into the 2028 race, including from me. On last week's Sunday podcast, I said that his podcast was basically his campaign announcement. The podcast has also birthed a never-ending stream of criticism. What on earth is Gavin Newsom doing? Michelle Goldberg

asked at the New York Times. Newsom tries to use right-wing influencers to fix his image. Don't fall for it, Des Potos wrote in USA Today. A letter to the editor in the Sacramento Bee read, Governor Gavin Newsom could step up to be a better leader that California needs. Instead, he made a podcast. At The Guardian, Margaret Sullivan said, why is Gavin Newsom handing Steve Bannon a megaphone? Perhaps unaware that Bannon himself has one of the most popular podcasts in the world. Others branded the podcast as cringe or said it backfired. The conservative account Libs of TikTok

called Newsom out for lying when he claimed he never used the term Latinx. Anti-Trump Republican Adam Kinzinger said he was, quote, in shock at the stupidity, end quote, of Newsom having Bannon on his show, calling it, quote, unforgivable and insane, end quote. In reaction to the podcast, Newsom's favorability among liberals cratered, dropping from 46% to 30%. The same polling showed Republicans overwhelmingly believed him to be insincere, calling him fake and pandering. The show now has an abysmal

2.8 out of 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, which is basically as bad as you can get. Which honestly is a shame. I actually listened to the episodes with Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon. And I have to say, I quite like them. I really did. A few things about Newsom's approach stood out to me as remarkable and novel that I feel like I should call out and defend a little bit here. First, it's incredible that these conversations are happening at all. Literally incredible. Many liberals and Democrats claim to be open-minded to right-wing ideas but limit their intake of conservative media to exclusively Never Trump Republicans who share a great deal of their worldview. Newsom did not launch a purportedly ideologically diverse podcast and then invite on say

David French of the New York Times, a famous Never Trump-er. He immediately brought on guests that as the commentary above demonstrates, are considered off-limits to a lot of people in left-wing bubbles. Newsom's decision to sit down for a lengthy interview with someone like Kirk or Bannon is even more extraordinary given his status. He's not a journalist or an influencer. He's a politician and a rather prominent one at that. We'll be right back after this quick break. You know about the Happy Face killer. He's my father. It's so good to see you, Missy. Experience the thrilling new series. He said he killed another woman.

Inspired by a true life story. If I don't deal with him, he will never leave us alone. You don't see how the words sang to you. Annali Ashford and Dennis Quaid star. I am not responsible for what my dad did. The score and how you hoped. Happy Face, new series now streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus.

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The second thing that was remarkable is that both the discussions I listened to were cordial, despite the radical differences in worldview between host and guest. Neither devolved into shouting matches or ad hominem attacks, and Newsom even managed to laugh off a few barbs from Kirk and Bannon that were clearly bait to send the conversation off the rails. Third, and perhaps most impressive, Newsom didn't use the interviews to defend his record, preach his own views, or try to prove his guests wrong. He spent almost the entirety of both interviews asking questions, that is, actually trying to better understand the perspective of both interviews asking questions, that is actually trying to better understand

the perspective of the guests. Bannon, who I happen to think is a lying, dishonorable political cretin, said a lot of things I actually agree with and conducted himself with a good deal of candor and grace. I learned more about his worldview, and while I still loathe much of what he's done to degrade our politics,

not to mention screw over Trump supporters, I left better understanding how and why he believes what he believes. Newsom got him to act like a normal human being, and also gave him space to state his opinions clearly. I simply cannot overemphasize how refreshing that is. Sadly, I can't understate how unsurprising it was to see it get pilloried by the left. Michelle Goldberg said she was, quote, open to the idea of Newsom's podcast until she realized the governor frequently seems less interested in arguing than in finding common ground, assuming the good faith of people who have next to none. To state that differently, Goldberg was open to the idea of the podcast until she realized

Newsom might emphasize common ground or let guests speak uninterrupted rather than debating all of them until presumably they submitted to the worldview she shares with Newsom. That is not actually what being open-minded or curious is about. And perhaps more to the point, it's the same unoriginal approach happening all across the media that has continued to degrade political dialogue and for what it's worth also completely failed the left politically. In MSNBC, Zashon Aleem said Newsom allowed Bannon to casually lie about the 2020 election without pushback and to define right-wing populism as anti-elitist without any substantive objection about Trump's billionaire-friendly presidency.

I've actually interacted with Alim a few times and believe him to be an honest broker, but I don't think either of these characterizations are quite right. On the former, Bannon preempted Newsom's pushback by saying they did steal, according to us, the 2020 election, pushback Newsom smoothly applied by audibly laughing in his face at the absurdity of this position. And on the latter, Newsom pushed back directly and verbally, leading to an extended exchange about Elon Musk and the billionaires Trump has courted into his administration. He didn't just let him off. Like Goldberg, Alim concluded his criticism of the show by bemoaning the fact that, quote, it wasn't a debate.

Was Newsom at times disingenuous or dodgy? Yes, he was. That is sort of his entire brand. He's a tall, handsome, slippery car salesman like Talker who is extremely good at political cons. But at least he is in the arena with these people, having real conversations, allowing them to be critical of his own perspectives, asking smart questions and conceding the obvious reality that Democrats are out to see right now. That's far more than most Democratic politicians or pundits

can say. I really can't think of any other well-known elected Democrat who has the kind of candor about the party's political weaknesses that Newsom displayed in these conversations, aside from maybe Bernie Sanders, though he's an independent and that is literally his entire brand. The show, and its implied purpose, certainly invites reasonable criticism. In USA Today, POTUS warned his readers that Newsom is trying to find votes and support, and most of all, power, not necessarily consensus. I think that's probably true. Goldberg also made a couple reasonable suggestions about places where Newsom could have pushed back. For instance, Newsom was well within his rights to agree with Kirk

about trans women in sports, but for his own benefit, if Newsom is going to simultaneously claim the champion LGBT rights, which he did on the show, he's going to come off as a rather weak need champion if he doesn't push Kirk about his previously stated view that trans women were quote disgusting mentally ill neurotic predatory freaks and quote. He also might have interjected when Kirk described his organization Turning Point USA as some kind of gritty startup that blossomed through Kirk's college campus appearances. It was backed by a Tea Party activist and ceded money from a deep-pocketed evangelical mega-donor.

These are all fair callouts, but again, they're smaller criticisms within a much more important larger thrust of this show. Newsom is doing something few liberal members of the media ever do, let alone left of center politicians. He's sitting with scarlet letter conservatives by his side and trying to better understand them. However self-serving Newsom's intentions might be, the dialogue is earnest and there is very little gotcha nonsense or thunderdome elements that we see on CNN or Fox News. For all of that, I'm grateful and I found the show genuinely appealing. It's not just in the Tangle ethos, but it's an encouraging sign of where our political

leaders are headed and a healthy response from a party leader whose party just lost a lot of power in the last election. We should all want more of this, not less, if we have any hope of our country stepping back from the abyss. And I figured it was about time somebody said so. All right. That is it for today's podcast. We'll see you guys on Sunday. Have a good one. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kedak, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bacopa, who is also our social

media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. If you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to www.retangle.com and check out our website. Now streaming. What do you know about the Happy Face killer? He's my father. It's so good to see you, Missy. Experience the thrilling new series. He said he killed another woman. Inspired by a true life story. If I don't deal with him, he will never leave us alone.

You don't see how the births sang to you. Annaleigh Ashford and Dennis Quaid star. I am not responsible for what my dad did. Let's go in how you hoped. Happy am not responsible for what my dad did. The score and how you hoped. Happy Face, new series now streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus.