Tangle - Henry Kissinger's death.

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Starting point is 00:00:29 Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. From executive producer Isaac Saul, This is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about Henry Kissinger, the longtime American diplomat and the former Secretary of State and National Security Advisor.

Starting point is 00:01:36 He died, and there's a lot of debate about his legacy, so we're going to jump in with some of that. Before we do, though, a couple of notes. First of all, we released on Sunday our first ever Sunday edition. This is our little take on a Sunday newspaper. It is for paying Tangle members only. It's a collection of roundups of our week of coverage, comics, word puzzles, new Tangle features, things like the tweet of the week, some stuff like suggested reading, and we got a lot of great feedback about it. Some readers wrote in and said, I love the Sunday edition, exactly what I was looking for to add to my Sunday reading list. This is awesome. Well done. I think this will be my favorite newsletter of the week.

Starting point is 00:02:20 Great, light, fun letter. Thank you. All these reviews were very affirming. And I want to just remind you that you can get this Sunday edition, even if you're a podcast listener. If you're somebody who does not want to get four or five newsletters a week, you can become a Tangle member. It's for paying subscribers only. And then just toggle on the Sunday edition and toggle off other newsletters in your email settings. And you can go find that at readtangle.com forward slash membership of course. And also I should note now that the Sunday edition is up and off the ground, the next thing on our list, the thing that is now finally climbed to the top of our priority list is

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Starting point is 00:03:42 out of the way, we're going to kick things off today with some quick hits. First up, the House of Representatives voted 311 to 114 to expel Representative George Santos, the Republican from New York, from Congress. That makes him the sixth member of the House to ever be expelled in U.S. history. New York Governor Kathy Hochul, a Democrat, will now announce a special election for Santos' replacement in the next 10 days. Number two, Israel reportedly had information about Hamas' October attack months ago, but doubted its ability to pull the attack off. Meanwhile, bombing restarted in Gaza after the Israel-Hamas Ceasefire Ended. Number three, Sandra Day O'Connor, the first female U.S. Supreme Court justice, died at the age of 96.

Starting point is 00:04:35 Number four, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, a Republican who is running for president, debated California Governor Gavin Newsom, a Democrat, on Fox News. And number five, ballistic missiles fired by Yemen's Iran-backed Houthi rebels struck three commercial ships in the Red Sea on Friday. Meanwhile, a U.S. warship shot down three Houthi-launched drones during the attack. Now tonight to some late breaking news coming in. Former Secretary of State renowned diplomat Henry Kissinger has died. He leaves a storied political history, having served multiple presidents, shaping foreign policy for generations. Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger has died at the age of 100.

Starting point is 00:05:21 has died at the age of 100. The German-born American statesman became a household name in the 1970s as he worked to end the Vietnam War and the Cold War. He was a master of pragmatic, big-picture diplomacy, but he had his critics, who described him as manipulative and insecure. Some called him a war criminal for his role in bombing Cambodia and widening the war in Vietnam. On Wednesday, Henry Kissinger, the longtime American diplomat and political scientist, who was the only person ever served concurrently as both Secretary of State and National Security

Starting point is 00:05:58 Advisor, died at the age of 100. Kissinger, who was born in Bavaria in 1923 to a family of German Jews who fled to the United States during the rise of the Nazis, was one of the most polarizing figures in American history. He served under Presidents Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford, though he advised 12 presidents from both parties, more than a quarter of all the men who have ever held the office. Kissinger was known for his cunning and subtle diplomacy and is credited by many contemporary secretaries of state for effectively writing the playbook on American diplomacy. He is best known for negotiating the United States' exit from Vietnam, shaping America's relationship with the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and negotiating the

Starting point is 00:06:40 earliest days of the present-day U.S.-China relationship. He shared the 1973 Nobel Peace Prize for his role in negotiating the U.S. withdrawal from the Vietnam War, though the conflict would continue for two more years and Saigon would ultimately fall to the communist regime. He was later criticized for accepting peace terms that were available in 1969 and needlessly extending the war three more years, though he long rejected that as a myth. At different times, Kissinger was loathed by the American left, who believed he should have been charged with war crimes, and by the American right, who believed he should have acted more strongly against communist China. Henry Kissinger literally wrote the book on diplomacy, John Kerry,

Starting point is 00:07:20 who was then Secretary of State, said in 2014, adding that Kissinger gave us the vocabulary of modern diplomacy, the very words shuttle diplomacy and strategic patience. However, with the benefit of hindsight and declassified documents, his legacy has been severely marred. Kissinger helped architect the secret carpet bombing of Cambodia and Laos in the late 1960s, which resulted in the deaths of more than 50,000 civilians. Another 2 million Cambodians were later slaughtered by the Khmer Rouge insurgents, which was blamed by some on Nixon and Kissinger policies that led to Cambodia's fall. He also architected the toppling of democratically elected leaders in Chile and Argentina, backed Pakistan's genocidal war in Bangladesh and approved Indonesia's deadly

Starting point is 00:08:05 invasion of East Timor, all in the name of fighting the rise of communism. And yet he was also involved in the end of conflicts. He is credited by many for preventing larger-scale conflicts with the Soviet Union and China during the Cold War. In 1973, he negotiated the end of the Yom Kippur War that began after Egypt and Syria attacked Israel. For his service, he was awarded the end of the Yom Kippur War that began after Egypt and Syria attacked Israel. For his service, he was awarded the Medal of Freedom by President Ford. Kissinger was active in diplomacy late into his life, even appearing in the Trump White House. Last summer, at the age of 100, he met with China's President Xi Jinping. While on tour for his book in 2022, he was asked if he regretted any of his decisions. I've been thinking about these

Starting point is 00:08:45 problems all my life. It's my hobby as well as my occupation, he said, and so the recommendations I made were the best of which I was then capable. Today, we're going to examine some arguments about Kissinger's legacy from the right and the left, and then my take. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. First up, we'll start with what the left is saying. The left is mostly critical of Kissinger's legacy, framing it in terms of the violence enabled by his policies and global conflicts. Some say Kissinger's life is too complex to be reduced to a handful of decisions he made. Others contend that his legacy is still an open question, and there are lessons to be learned from both his mistakes and accomplishments.

Starting point is 00:09:37 In the New York Times, Nicholas Kristof wrote about Kissinger's triumphs and catastrophes. Henry Kissinger was the wisest of American foreign policy leaders and the most oblivious, the most farsighted, and the most myopic, the one with the greatest legacy and the one we should most study to learn what not to do, Kristof said. For someone so savvy about diplomacy, he was blind to the force of nationalism, and many of his worst mistakes involved his dismissal of small countries as pawns to be sacrificed along with the people in them. One of the greatest mistakes America has made in the post-World War II period has been the repeated failure to appreciate the force of nationalism, and Kissinger exemplified that, Kristof added. I see Kissinger as far too complicated to fit

Starting point is 00:10:20 the caricature of either heroic statesman or war criminal. What his admirers miss is that hundreds of thousands of people died unnecessarily because of his missteps and his blunders in Vietnam, South Asia, and elsewhere damaged America's standing. What his critics miss is that he reduced the risk of war among the superpowers in the Middle East while greatly advancing arms control. In some ways, he made the world safer. In MSNBC, Hayes Brown said Henry Kissinger's legacy is best measured in bodies. Kissinger was a man for whom power and influence were resources for achieving his goals and ultimately goals unto themselves, Brown wrote. Concepts such as human rights and democracy could be weighed against whether a state was stronger or weaker

Starting point is 00:11:01 than its peers. It's not hard to see how he applied that maxim in his own life, as he sought to attach himself to those who could turn his theories into reality. As records of his time in office have become more accessible, it's become harder to ignore the blood on his hands, Brown said. Kissinger was a leading voice calling for the expansion of the Vietnam War in 1970. On the grounds that it would provide space for American troops to disengage, Kissinger advocated a secret bombing campaign against neighboring Cambodia, where North Vietnamese communist forces were camping and receiving aid. By 1973, the carpet bombing had expanded to cover half of the country. Though no firm numbers exist, anywhere from 150,000 to 500,000 civilians

Starting point is 00:11:42 were killed as a result of that campaign. The Washington Post editorial board suggested Kissinger's legacy is still up for debate. In Mr. Kissinger's relentless pursuit of what he perceived as U.S. interests, he was accused of appeasing dictators and abetting war crimes. Mr. Kissinger enabled and encouraged some of the worst offenses of Nixon, including the secret bombing of Cambodia. He also supported a U.S. effort to topple Chile's elected socialist president and back Pakistan's bloody assault on Bangladesh, the board said. Noting his errors is not to downplay Mr. Kissinger's significance, but to prove it. Mr. Kissinger's heyday was a time when the Secretary of State

Starting point is 00:12:21 could strike grand bargains that seem elusive to U.S. leaders today. Such a time seems long distant, the board said. But even if opportunities for sweeping diplomacy seem fewer, Mr. Kissinger's legacy contains lessons as immediate as ever. One is that U.S. foreign policy conducted without regard for democratic values can achieve much, but can also miss much. All right, that is if what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right mostly celebrates Kissinger and says he lived an impactful life of service. Some concede mistakes in his approach to foreign policy, but argue he ultimately made the world a safer place. Others rebuke those on the left who he lived an impactful life of service. Some concede mistakes in his approach to foreign policy, but argue he ultimately made the world a safer place. Others rebuke those on the left who revel in Kissinger's death. In the spectator world, Charles Lipson praised the remarkable life of

Starting point is 00:13:15 Henry Kissinger. His prominence is well-deserved. The only modern secretaries of state who rank with him are George C. Marshall and Dean Acheson, who constructed the architecture of Cold War containment in the late 1940s. Kissinger's central achievement was updating that architecture to include China, less as an American ally than as a Russia adversary. Until the late 1960s, Washington and Beijing had seen each other as bitter foes, not only because they had fought each other in the Korean War, but also because they represented the era's two opposed ideologies, Lipson said. Kissinger should be remembered not just at his height, but also someone whose life traces a remarkable arc. He fled the Nazis with his Jewish family in 1938, fought against them in World War

Starting point is 00:14:00 II, returned to America and gained a doctorate from Harvard, rose to the highest levels of academia, and then reached the highest appointed levels of government in his adopted country. Amid the debates about his life and career, he will surely be remembered as one of the most significant statesmen of the Cold War era. In the Dispatch, Kevin D. Williamson explored why Kissinger will never be forgiven for his role in the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War was, from the beginning, a democratic project, one of those many conflicts that a certain kind of prairie populist used to denounce as democrat wars. The United States did not achieve its particular military goals in Vietnam, but engaged on a dozen open and covert fronts, the United States did

Starting point is 00:14:42 ultimately succeed in the larger project of which Vietnam was a part, winning the Cold War, defeating the worldwide communist enterprise. For that success, Henry Kissinger never was forgiven and never will be, Williamson said. There will be no debate about whether Kissinger lived a consequential life. There will be a great deal of debate about whether he lived a good one. There shouldn't be. Kissinger was an extraordinarily effective advocate and diplomat, and he was on the right side of the most important conflicts of his time, while his opponents were, to a great and greatly culpable degrees, on the wrong side, Williamson said. That this should be regarded as a crime against humanity tells us more about Kissinger's enemies than it does about the late Secretary of State. Thank you. Working to bridge the diversity gap in child psychology research. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions.

Starting point is 00:15:49 To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca forward happens here. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most.

Starting point is 00:16:19 Stay in the know. CBC News. CBC News. and deliberate cadence Democrats found their Dr. Strange love. President Richard Nixon's henchmen were criminal. Some of Kissinger's sins were real. Many of them were imagined. Mostly, though, the left detests him for being an unrepentant enemy of communism and a Cold War hero, Harsanyi said. In the left's revisionism, Kissinger could be likened to Slobodan Milosevic, or maybe Hitler, for his secret bombing of neutral Cambodia, a place that was infested with Viet Cong who were retrenching to move against American troops and ultimately bring misery to millions. Kissinger knew we stood for something above and beyond our material

Starting point is 00:17:16 achievements and purely pragmatic policies unrealistic and unsustainable. Kissinger's overriding goal was checking and weakening some of the most brutal dictatorships the world has ever seen. That's why the contemporary American left has such disdain for the man, Harsanyi said. The American left can't begrudgingly admit anything Kissinger did was good, of course, because he's a supervillain. And the Kissinger mythology allows them to feel like we were no better than our adversaries. All right, that is it for it with the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So I have a general philosophy about evaluating people's actions, and it's one I try to deploy and tangle. Nobody should be defined solely by their worst moments. I've written about this in the past, like when discussing

Starting point is 00:18:10 cancel culture or confessing my own sins. However, I also think someone with a global impact like Henry Kissinger can, and should, be defined by the tangible, easily identifiable, and very obvious horrors he wrought on the world. I say this with no malice, but only as a matter of being clear-eyed in the way we discuss historical figures. The most illuminating American history is rarely written in the first years after an event, but rather decades later, when we get access to archived papers and conversations, declassified documents, and a host of people who are in the room that are finally willing to speak honestly about what they saw. And with the benefit of that hindsight and even his own words added to the historical record, we can say a few things about Kissinger that I think are notable enough

Starting point is 00:18:54 to be the central focus of his legacy. He supported and orchestrated the toppling of democratically elected leaders in nations that are still fighting off instability and political fractures because of those actions. John Kerry is right that he wrote the book on U.S. foreign diplomacy, but whole chapters of that book advance the worldview that abandoning U.S. values is acceptable when it serves our own interests. It is precisely this posture that has garnered so much ill will toward present-day U.S. positioning on the global stage. As Kissinger infamously quipped, the illegal we do immediately, the unconstitutional takes a little longer. The death toll alone is enough to make his decisions during the Vietnam War the lead of

Starting point is 00:19:35 any story about his legacy. Kissinger and Nixon ordered clandestine bombing raids in Cambodia, a neutral nation during the war, for the sheer purpose of trying to flush out communist Viet Cong forces in the east of the country. In 1973, a Pentagon report was released showing Kissinger approved each of the 3,875 bombing raids, as well as a strategy to hide the raids from the press. Estimates on how many people those raids killed range from 50,000 to 150,000, and unexploded bombs all across Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam have maimed and killed people for decades after the war, and continue to today. In 1971, Kissinger was central to the United States' backing of West Pakistan as it unleashed a genocide against residents of East Pakistan, now Bangladesh. against residents of East Pakistan, now Bangladesh. Kissinger's goal was to win support of a friendly regime that could help him engage China and tip the global power scales toward a friendly U.S.-China

Starting point is 00:20:30 relationship. It was a chess move, with civilians as the pawns. The cost was hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, many of which were taken thanks to Kissinger's illegal arms transfers to Pakistan. In Vox, Dylan Matthews wrote about what Kissinger and Nixon knew to be true, but still allowed to happen. Midway through the slaughter, the CIA privately estimated that 200,000 Bangladeshis had been killed. A later study using World Health Survey statistics put the total at 269,000 violent war deaths. Some 10 million Bangladeshis were forced into India as refugees, and over 200,000 Bangladeshi women were raped as part of an organized campaign of intimidation and terror.

Starting point is 00:21:11 Three years later, Kissinger gave an explicit green light to Indonesia's invasion of East Timor in an effort for stability and as a sign of loyalty to a leader that had helped the U.S. overthrow a communist sympathetic leader. An estimated 100,000 civilians died in the ensuing war. In Chile and Argentina, he supported military coups against democratically elected leaders like Chile's socialist president Salvador Allende and Argentinian president Isabel Perón. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for discussion about Kissinger, but I'll add a few things that are necessary to say in any fair discussion of his legacy as well.

Starting point is 00:21:59 I'm writing about what was and not what could have been. It's possible, of course, that without Kissinger's maneuvering, however manipulative or violent it was, the country I live in today would be less safe and less free than it is. I didn't spend my childhood hiding under desks in preparation for nuclear war with Russia, and I walk the streets of the United States today with close to zero fear of an attack on our own soil or a military power that would ever challenge us. While our country is rife with domestic violence, I get to enjoy a Pax Americana Kissinger helped create, where I don't fear for our security as a nation and where the U.S. is still the undisputed superpower. Second is that Kissinger may not dispute any of what I wrote above, at least

Starting point is 00:22:41 in the sense he was not interested in moral high grounds or advancing democracy. He was interested in advancing U.S. interests and stability abroad, and in his mind, that was going to come with our hands on the steering wheel and a balance among the great powers that prevented another world war. Compared to the first half of the 20th century, plenty of people could argue that some of that stability has been achieved. Third and finally is that it is always easier to look back with 20-20 hindsight and say what could have been. It's a lot easier to criticize Kissinger now with the benefit of that hindsight, though I struggle to believe there should have been any ambiguity about some of his most cruel and reprehensible decisions in real time. Still, it has to be acknowledged that it was a different world then,

Starting point is 00:23:24 and Kissinger had the blessing and curse of being responsible for making the tough choices to navigate it. Does that make me view him any more favorably? Not much. A man's impact on the world can be great and profound and deserving of recognition while also being defined on net by violence, lies, and mistakes. I can't say what would have come of the U.S. in a world where Kissinger didn't exist, but I can look honestly at the way he created the world we have now, and I find it hard to look at that record with any adoration. We'll be right back after this quick break. this quick break. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered.

Starting point is 00:24:16 This one's from Ray in Springfield, Massachusetts. Ray said, any comments on the minor question mark conflict between Canada and India? Yeah, sure. Some comments. I think India was responsible for an assassination on Canadian soil, and the situation is probably not that minor, at least not as minor as it may seem, since it involves the world's 10th largest economy by GDP, that's Canada, and the world's largest democracy, that's India, and an important global geopolitical alliance between them, and broader alliances between India and the traditional West. Also, this story seems to now include the United States, which will only inject octane into

Starting point is 00:24:51 an already explosive situation. So, what's the conflict? Before I even get started, let me add two big disclaimers here. First of all, we still don't know that the Indian government is responsible for anything, and I certainly do not want to report as fact any informed speculation I can make, which, no matter how informed it is, will still be speculation. As always, the wisest thing to do is to wait for more information before drawing firm conclusions. Secondly, this is a geopolitical conflict, meaning national security and global alliances are on the line for Canada and India, as well as feelings of national pride and public sentiment, which can be very deep and very powerful. Put differently, do you know enough about the Israel-Palestine conflict to know that it's extremely controversial? If you don't know about India's Khalistan controversy, think of the sentiments behind

Starting point is 00:25:39 it as just as emotionally charged. In the north of India, which is a predominantly Hindu country, there is a region on the border with Pakistan called Punjab, which is predominantly Sikh. There is a separatist movement within India to carve a Sikh-majority state out of the Punjab called Khalistan, which the Indian government has deemed a terrorist movement. In June of this year, Hardeep Singh Nijjar, a Sikh separatist and Canadian citizen, was killed in Canada. In June of this year, Hardeep Singh Nizar, a Sikh separatist and Canadian citizen, was killed in Canada. In September, the Canadian Prime Minister asked for Indian cooperation to look into credible allegations that Nizar was murdered by Indian agents. And India, by and large, took offense. The government strongly denied allegations, calling them absurd and motivated.

Starting point is 00:26:22 Indian media accused Canada of harboring terrorists. The Indian government pushed Canada to expel 41 diplomats. But the denials, though emotional and extremely charged, all fall flat. It's hard to imagine Canada's prime minister, months after the death of one of its citizens, deciding to blow up an important diplomatic relationship if there were no evidence pointing to India's involvement. And now, as we reported last Thursday, federal prosecutors in the United States are saying they uncovered an Indian plot to assassinate a Khalistan separatist who's an American citizen. So, again, very tense, very complex, and seeming to be less and less minor all the time. We may eventually cover this situation and entangle more in depth, but for now, you can read in New

Starting point is 00:27:05 York Times' comprehensive timeline of events. For the recap, there's a link to that in today's episode description. All right, next up is our Under the Radar section. The Supreme Court is going to hear two huge cases today. First, it will hear oral arguments in a case about Purdue Pharma's settlement over the opioid epidemic. Critical to the settlement is a release that shields the Sackler family, which owns Purdue, from any civil lawsuits that stem from the opioid crisis. Approval of the bankruptcy plan with that stipulation has been challenged to the Supreme Court. Second is the quadrillion dollar question, a case that could upend the U.S. tax code. More v. United States will determine whether the federal government can tax unrealized

Starting point is 00:27:51 gains or assets that haven't been sold. You can read CBS's coverage of the Purdue Pharma case with a link in today's episode description, or The Hill's coverage of the quadrillion dollar question with a link in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The percentage of U.S. international relations scholars who said Kissinger was the most effective U.S. Secretary of State in the past 50 years was 32% in a 2014 poll by the College of William and Mary. Kissinger's rank in Gallup's 1973 and 1974 list of men Americans admire most was number one. The year Kissinger was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Gerald Ford was 1977, and his job approval as Secretary of State in January 1976 was 69%, according to an NBC News poll. His job approval in December 1976

Starting point is 00:28:49 was 57%. The number of confirmed meetings between Kissinger and Vladimir Putin was 17, and the approximate number of visits Kissinger made to China was 100. All right, and last but not least, our have a nice day section. This week, we opened up the Tangle Inbox and found a nice story from one of our readers. Aidan Walker is a sophomore at Princeton and the CFO of the Princeton Electric Speed Boating Club. He wrote in to tell us about his club's accomplishment last month when the speed boating team hosted a private race event at Lake Townsend, North Carolina, and broke the record for fastest electric boat in the world.

Starting point is 00:29:29 The team's flagship boat, Big Bird, ran two flying kilometer runs, achieving a top speed of 117.5 miles per hour on the second run and an average speed of 114.2 miles per hour over both. The top speed beats the official average speed record held by the English automobile manufacturer Jaguar, as well as the unofficial single-point speed record held by electric marine startup Vision Marine. We truly believe that our success is a testament to our passion

Starting point is 00:29:58 for proving electric viability in a boating industry dominated by gas as well as the power of the human spirit and the underdog, Aiden said. Speed on the Water has the story, and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. As always, if you want to support our work, you can go to retangle.com forward slash membership. Don't forget to check out our YouTube channel, Tangle News on YouTube, where we've got some new videos up, including a recent interview with Chloe Valdoree. Also, we are just pushing out great content on the YouTube channel all the time.

Starting point is 00:30:34 So you want to check it out. And now, of course, if you also want to get a Sunday edition in your inbox, becoming a member is the easiest way to do that. We'll be right back here. Same time tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Law. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kabak, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. Thank you. We'll see you next time. beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel

Starting point is 00:31:45 a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+.

Tangle - Henry Kissinger's death.

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