Tangle - HOW TO FIX OUR BROKEN ELECTIONS: Isaac talks with Nick Troiano

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

For all the talk about how broken some parts of our democracy are, very few people are actually doing something meaningful about it. Nick Troiano is one of those people. Through his work as Executive Director of Unite America, Troiano is attempting what most people probably don't even imagine to be possible: To solve gerrymandering and political polarization. We spoke with Nick about what he thinks the way to do this is to address what he calls the "primary problem".You can read today's podcast here and you can also check out our latest YouTube video here.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here.Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo.--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Hey, everybody, and welcome back to the Tangle podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul. And on today's podcast, I'm thrilled to be sitting down with Nick Troiano. Nick is a civic entrepreneur based in Denver, Colorado. I want to talk about what a civic entrepreneur is. He is the executive director of Unite America, a national organization that works to bridge the growing partisan divide by enacting political reforms and electing candidates who put people over party. Nick, thank you so much for coming on the show. Great to be with you, Isaac.

So we've gotten a chance to get to know each other a little bit. We've roomed together at a conference in California, which was a blast. I want to introduce you to my readers, though. I'd love if maybe you could talk a little bit about your background, how you got into some of the work that you're up to today. Sure. Well, I got into political reform after studying politics in Washington, D.C. and sort of having an up-close view of the difference between what I was learning in the classroom of how government was supposed to work and the activities and activism I was involved in actually interfacing on Capitol Hill. And one of the earliest experiences I had was advocating for the Simpson-Bowles Commission proposals, which was around how to put our country on a more sustainable fiscal path.

And not only did our Congress not be able to find common ground on that issue, in 2013, we were left with a government shutdown and a debt ceiling crisis. Not much has changed over the last 10 years, by the way, except the fact that we've added $20 trillion to our national debt. So that was an early formative experience to me that led me to run for office as an independent candidate, and then eventually help start and now run this organization, Unite America, which is addressing our political dysfunction at a more systemic level. But I come at this work as a political independent, as someone who sees politics not just as a battle between two teams,

but really as public service and opportunity to solve problems, to leave the country better than how we found it. And while the state of our democracy is disappointing, to say the least, and a bit scary these days, I have such tremendous hope and optimism because I've seen the fact that we can still use the tools that are at our disposal in this democracy to fix what's wrong with it. And I think that's the spirit of which has made our country great over the last 250 years and will continue to into the future. What did you learn running for office as an independent? I mean, I imagine as somebody who cared about the political

system and then actually tried to join the fray, there were probably some things that surprised you or maybe didn't surprise you and some lessons you took away. What was that experience like for you? It was a great experience. I spent a year talking to thousands of my neighbors, essentially, across 15 different counties in Northeast Pennsylvania. It was a grounding experience because most people don't spend their days living and breathing politics. It was also two years before the 2016 election. While many people may have been very surprised by that election night, it wasn't to me

because I had seen up close really the disaffection that existed between people and their government and the desire for anything new, anything different, right, that would change a status quo of people feeling like they weren't being represented and weren't being well served. And in a way, that's what my candidacy represented in 2014 in my district as someone who was running outside the parties, not accepting special interest contributions. I was able to tap into that and able to build a support base from people that were in the Green Party to people that were in the Tea Party. It just so happened, though, that it was also the case I learned that running as an

independent, you don't have all the same infrastructure that major party candidates do. And that by nature of our voting system, a lot of people fear voting for a third candidate with the concern that doing so would take away a vote from their second preferred candidate and elect their least preferred candidate, the so-called spoiler effect. So I learned how unlevel the playing field is for candidates outside the two-party system, from the way our election rules are written to the way the media covers these races, and left that campaign with 13% of the vote, which was the best an independent for House did in 20 years, but realizing there's a long way to go to actually level the playing field. And that was one of the main reasons why I wanted to take on

this issue of election reform. So today you call yourself a civic entrepreneur. I saw it in your bio on your website, which interested me. I mean, there's so many different ways to describe the work that you're doing and work that I find extremely important for the kinds of changes that I think our election systems need. I mean, I know you have a little bit of a home field advantage here because you and I agree on many of the issues that kind of flaw, the flaws in our system. Curious if you could tell me what a civic entrepreneur is, why you sort of choose that language to describe the work that you're doing right now. Well, to me, being a civic entrepreneur means bringing the spirit and skills of enterprise to solving a sort of vexing public problem. that spirit of civic mindedness combined with this entrepreneurial orientation, which I think is so important for someone who wants to make change in the world, because

beyond writing, you know, impassioned op eds and giving passionate talks, you actually need to build you need to build strong organization, build strong strategy, build strong execution over a period of time to actually change policy, to make progress, to elect new people. And so I've just considered what I have been up to over the past decade or so is trying to build a strong institution with a startup that is the organization I'm honored to lead right now and point all of that towards, like I said, a problem that if solved can produce something beyond a financial bottom line, but actually produces strong ROI for, in this case, our system of democracy.

So that's what being a civic entrepreneur means to me. So let's talk about those problems. You kind of alluded to this a little bit in your answer about, you know, your experience running, which was that you encountered a lot of voters who were sort of scared to cast a ballot, maybe for someone they viewed as a quote unquote spoiler candidate. I know very core to your work is something that you guys at Unite America call the primary problem, which I think is sort of loosely, if not directly tied to that observation you made while running. Could you tell me a little bit

about what the primary problem is, how you guys define it and where Americans might see it out there in the wild? Well, my first experience with coming across this problem was in my campaign. I decided to run for office because I thought the incumbent congressman was not a great guy, not doing a great job. But what I learned was it was really a person stuck in a pretty broken system. And so the district I'm from in Pennsylvania, at the time, I was a very gerrymandered district, right? The state legislature drew the lines to protect the incumbent and party in power, which meant that there was no competitive general election. The only election that mattered was the primary election when both parties nominate their

candidate. In this case, it was a strong Republican district. So it was just the Republican primary that mattered. And further, Pennsylvania has closed primaries, which means that only registered Republicans can vote in that contest, not Democrats and not independent voters, of which there are over a million in the state. And so what is the impact of that? Well, for an elected official, it means that they only have to win and keep the support of the people who vote in their party's dominant primary. And for my congressman at the time, that was the Republican base.

And that is why, to me, that explained a lot of the behavior that he had in Congress and not being actually willing to work across the aisle to solve some of the problems he claimed to care about. And it also left a lot of people, you know, sort of disenfranchised. And over the years, what I discovered is like, that wasn't just a problem, of course, in my one district, my district is the norm, not the exception for how all of Congress operates. And so the research that United America did, coming out of the last election showed that 83% of congressional districts are decided in the primary, and only about 8% of Americans nationally cast ballots in those primaries that effectively decided the election. So that's all to say about 8% of America decided, 83% of our Congress. It's hard to call that a functional democracy when 30 million Americans

were locked out of those same primary elections. That's Democrats, Republicans, and independents. And so it disenfranchises voters and it disincentivizes our leaders from actually working together to solve problems. And this is, I think, the biggest solvable problem in our political system. And it's hiding right there in plain sight. We this is, I think, the biggest solvable problem in our political system, and it's hiding right there in plain sight. You know, we talk about money in politics and gerrymandering as issues, that those are true. But I think the biggest issue, the biggest solvable issue is really our party primary system in America today. So I'm curious to hear a little bit about your guys' work to address this. I mean, one of the reasons that you're sitting here is because you're not just somebody who

writes op-eds and uses his megaphone to complain about the issue. You've actually gone out and effectuated some change, which I think is sort of rare in this fight against the kind of two-party duopoly system, whatever you want to call it. Tell us a little bit about some of the changes that you guys have been able to help implement or push in your work, support in your work, and what we've seen after those changes have been put into place. Sure. Well, as context, Unite America is a philanthropic venture fund, and we invest in nonpartisan reforms that can help foster a more

functional and representative government. And for us, we are focused on solving this primary problem in our politics through a couple policies, all of which add up to or level up to a couple core principles that we have. One is that every registered voter should be able to vote for any candidate, regardless of party, in every election. And the second principle is that whomever wins those elections should be required to have majority support. Now, when you ask most Americans, not only do 70% plus agree with those two principles, over 70% assume they're the case today because they're so common sense, but they're not. In fact, there's only four states where both of those statements are true. And those are the states that have done away with traditional party primaries and moved to

either having no primary or a nonpartisan primary. And what that means is that there's a single ballot in the primary that all the candidates are listed on with their party affiliations and all the voters can participate in. The top finishers from that primary then go to the general election, whether that's two candidates, four or four candidates, or sometimes five. And whoever wins a majority in the general election wins. And sometimes that will require the use of an instant runoff. So that's a system of election that we hope more states will move in the direction of because the impact is for every state that eliminates their party primaries means that two more senators and their entire congressional delegation

is liberated from only being beholden to the 8%, and they actually have to represent and serve the 51% of their constituents. And so this isn't just theory. As you noted, this has been borne out in practice. In 2019, our organization made our first grant to a group in Alaska called Alaskans for Better Elections that ran a ballot initiative successfully in 2020 that implemented the country's first top four primary and instant runoff general election. And it was used for the first time in 2022. And what was notable about that is that they had the highest on record primary turnout, more people participated in the election. They had more candidates running for each seat, so more competitive elections than

ever before. And they had candidates who won those elections who best represented the electorate. And for the statewide offices, that was a moderate Democrat, Mary Peltola, who beat Sarah Palin for U.S. House. It was a moderate Republican Senator, Lisa Murkowski, who beat Sarah Palin for US House. It was a moderate Republican senator, Lisa Murkowski, who defended against a primary challenge. And it was a conservative Trump-backed governor, Mike Dunleavy, who most Alaskans think is doing a good job. So it had a party-neutral impact, right? But you had candidates that were able to build broader coalitions than just only pandering to the base of their party. Moreover, you had a state legislature now where there's bipartisan governing majorities in both the state house and state senate, meaning

D's, R's, and I's working together rather than a single party controlling the caucus or legislature. So we think not only is it viable, these reforms, voters will support them, but also that it can improve democracy. You can get more representative outcomes and that can translate into a more functional government. I love it. So obviously with an open primary, there is going to be a little bit of a different system that you use in order to choose the candidates in a place like Alaska. My understanding is that you guys have opted to use ranked choice voting in if there are any other sort of voting systems out there that might be feasible to use in something like an open primary? Yeah, so the Alaska system is what we would consider our sort of North Star policy because it combines a nonpartisan primary at the primary level. And that means there's a single unified primary with all candidates and

all voters and an instant runoff general election that uses a ranked choice ballot to find a majority winner among the four candidates that advance to the general. So you have two different policies there that combined produce the most powerful system in terms of empowering voters and giving them more voice and choice in our politics. There are other systems that are incremental sort of steps towards this. So for example, there are some states that have what we would call an open primary rather than a nonpartisan one. In an open primary, any voter can select which party's primary they want to vote in.

So if you're a Democrat, you can choose a Republican or a Democratic ballot. If you're an Independent, you can choose either, etc. A semi-open primary is when you're an Independent and you get to pick, but the partisan voters cannot. They can only participate in their own. So there's a spectrum of how open the primary really is. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond

Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older,

and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCellVax.ca. 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at fluselvax.ca. That's separate from rank choice voting, which can be used in primaries or general elections. And the point of it is in a multi-candidate race, rather than just electing someone with the plurality or the most votes, it ensures a majority winner. So if no one gets an outright majority of votes on the first round of tabulation, rather than asking people to come back to vote in a runoff, you already know voters' second and third preferences, for example, and can do that tabulation instantaneously.

And of course, the advantage of that is it gives voters more power in selecting a candidate who's broadly representative of the whole electorate. So in Alaska, you guys just had this election with, frankly, pretty fascinating results. I mean, like you said, you know, you get this moderate Democrat, a moderate Republican, and a sort of Trump-backed conservative governor in the three different parts of the government where we saw this election happen. Is this going to stick? How did voters like it? I mean, I can imagine a world where, you know, in six months we see another ballot initiative come up to remove, you know, the nonpartisan primaries and the rank choice voting. So what's your outlook on how this election was received and what's going to happen going forward in Alaska now? So after the first time of Alaska using the system, we polled Alaskans to see what they

thought of the new system. 62% said they support the new top four primary, and close to 90% said they found it was simple to vote in the instant runoff general election using the ranked choice ballot. So voters like this system. Some of the politicians who in the past only needed to win support from 10% of the electorate, not the majority, did not like it when they lost their elections. A couple of those politicians, including Sarah Palin and Kelly Chewbacca, have gone on to now try to repeal the initiative, the reform, I should say. They were unsuccessful in doing so in the legislature. A majority of state legislators stood behind the reform that a majority of voters adopted. So now they may try and run a initiative

at the ballot in 2024 to repeal it. We think they will not be successful because right now, all Alaskans have the freedom to vote for any candidate they want in every election. If they take away this reform, that will no longer be the case. And that's why I think that the reform in Alaska will stick. And I think it's also one of the reasons why we're seeing more states try to pursue this. In Nevada, for example, there was a group in 2022 that brought this idea to the ballot. They won 53% of the vote. They will have to win again next year because it's a two-step process to amend the state's constitution. I think that will be successful as well. And this is the drum beat of reform that we can see sweeping the country. And as well. And this is the drumbeat of reform that we

can see sweeping the country. And by the way, this is how big change in our democracies happened in the past. If you go back a century ago, there were no party primaries at all. The party bosses and the local caucuses chose the candidates until people said, actually, the voters should have a say. And state by state, you know, voters adopted direct primaries. It's that same process now that will enable us to go to this next generation of primaries that serve voters even better. So I'm curious, I mean, there's obviously going to be the blowback from the politicians, especially when he talks about who kind of, you know, have this direct line to their base and know that that's the least friction path for them to win election.

But in your mind, is there any risk or downside to this kind of reform? I mean, what's like a potential worst case scenario for you in, you know, how elections might change if we move forward with this? Or is this something that you just think is unambiguously across the board going to be a great thing? I think relative to the status quo, I think it is unambiguously a good thing for democracy to be more representative of the whole electorate. I do think that some people raise valid concerns about, well, what role do political parties therefore have in our democracy moving forward if they're no longer power to nominate candidates has actually been taken away from them in a sense of they've lost control of their candidate nominations to the voters at large. Under this new system, they get to reclaim that because no longer is it the publicly funded election system that can say who the standard bearer of the Democratic or Republican Party should be. The parties get to hold their own process to nominate or endorse a candidate of their choosing,

separate from the process of then winnowing that candidate field down to a majority winner in the general election. So that's all to say that I think political parties are an important role of democracy because they can help make sense of politics to people who don't eat, live and breathe it every day. And they will have an even greater and clearer function under this new system than they do today, because they'll have more control over who they say, you know, should be their standard bearer in any particular election. There are some alternatives to something like a rank choice voting system. But before we got on this call, I sent you an article that actually a reader of mine sent to me about approval voting,

which I thought was a pretty interesting concept. It's something I've, you know, read a little bit here and there about, but this was kind of a deep dive on what it might look like comparing it to something like rank choice voting. My general understanding, and I'm sure you probably know it better than I do, is just it's a system where voters basically check a box saying whether they approve of a voter or not, or approve of a politician or not. And then rather than ranking them, say one through five, it's just the voter with the politician with the most consensus, the most approval comes out as the victor. I'm wondering what you think about that system, how you compare it to something like ranked choice voting in your mind, why it might be superior or inferior.

Well, for any of the ideas for how to reform our election process, I tend to compare everything to the status quo. I tend to compare everything to the status quo, right? So the status quo is a plurality system where whoever gets the most votes wins and every voter gets to choose only one candidate. Approval voting is an improvement over that, right? Because with plurality voting, you can have candidates who only represent small factions win elections or vote splitting that hampers the kind of demographic representation that we would hope to see in our democracy as well. So I think approval is a step forward from plurality voting. Relative to ranked choice voting or an instant runoff, I think it has one major disadvantage, which is that under ranked choice voting, ranking a candidate second or third does not necessarily hurt your first place

choice because only one of your votes counts in any particular round of tabulation. Under approval voting, the more candidates that you approve of could undermine the value of your vote for the candidate that you most prefer. And I think in any particular race, most voters have a strong preference for their number one candidate. So I think that's the tradeoff that's involved. That's why we happen to support instant runoff as a first choice in trying to improve our current election system. But I will take many election systems over what we've got today, including approval. including approval. So you've sort of touched on this a little bit, and I think, you know, part of it is intuitive just based on how you explain the system. But you said that nonpartisan primaries reduce polarization and improve the quality of governance. I'm wondering if you could make that case to me based on, you know, real world experience. How does something like opening these primaries up to different parties, and I want to be careful now because you're teaching me about the difference

between nonpartisan primaries and open primaries, but how does a nonpartisan primary reduce polarization or improve governance for Americans who are living under these, you know, newly elected politicians that might not win in a normal primary system? Well, if you think about our current system today, the threat that most incumbents, the vast majority of incumbents face is not being challenged in a general election from the other party. It's losing a primary from someone to their ideological extreme within their own party. And so what that means is every time a bill is before the Congress, members of Congress are making a calculation as to whether this makes it more or less likely that they'll get primaried in their next election. So it creates an incentive for them not to do anything that would put them at odds with the base of their party, which is what is exacerbating our polarization

challenge in our country. It's also just a perverse system of incentives, right? We hire our leaders to do a job, which is to work together and solve problems. But if they were to do that job, the more likely it is that they get fired, right? If that were the case in any other industry, they'd go bankrupt, which is basically where our political system is at today. they'd go bankrupt, which is basically where our political system is at today. So under a nonpartisan primary system, from day one, candidates are able to and are incentivized to build support from the broadest possible coalition, which means that in a deep blue district, they're going to be trying to win over moderates and Republicans. In a red district, they're going to be trying to win over

independents and Democrats to build that broad coalition. And that means when they govern, they're going to be more likely to want to try and represent just a broader swath of the electorate. And this bears out just as one example coming out of the 2022 midterm elections, when you look at the Republicans who bucked their party to stick up for democracy and hold the former president accountable when it came to the impeachment trial around the January 6th insurrection, the only Republicans who voted to impeach and to get eventually reelected back into the Congress came from states that did not have partisan primaries. Every other Republican either didn't run again or they lost their primary. And I think that's a powerful example of how the system can liberate our leaders to put country over party. And we see the same thing on other issue sets across both parties. There was a study done out of USC by Christian Gross that showed on average, newly elected members coming from states with nonpartisan primaries were 18 percentage points less ideologically extreme than those coming from states with

closed primaries. And that's ultimately how we deal with this challenge of partisan polarization, which stands in the way of every other issue, right, that we care about, whether it's immigration or climate or the budget, et cetera. So I want to zoom out here just a bit. You guys are working on, you know, these nonpartisan primaries, trying to back efforts across the country where you think you have opportunities to maybe win ballot initiatives. efforts across the country where you think you have opportunities to maybe win ballot initiatives. Sort of falling under that bucket once the nonpartisan primary push happens is this understanding that runoff voting or rank choice voting is something that is important to make

that system function well, both from the primary and then into the general election. Are there other initiatives at United America that you feel like are really top of mind right now? I mean, I know a lot of my readers and listeners care a lot about things like gerrymandering and, you know, funding of elections. I mean, are you guys working in other spaces or are you sort of looking at those and thinking this is impossible to make any real progress on until we do this part first? I do think that we have a strong perspective of trying to focus on changes that would be very impactful if they were to get adopted on improving governance and representation, and changes that are politically viable, like there's an actual path to achieving it. And when you overlay those two criteria, that's how we arrived at our policy suite of focusing on solving the primary problem, specifically with nonpartisan primaries, instant runoffs, and anti-gerrymandering, which can also happen like the other two policies at the state level. need a constitutional amendment. You don't need an act of Congress. States can do this either through their legislatures or in about half the states, they have ballot initiatives where you can go directly to voters to implement these changes. So all that said, while we see this as the biggest solvable problem, there is no silver bullet. And we should be experimenting

with other approaches. We should be looking at other angles and leverage points to reduce polarization in our country, whether that's at a cultural level or in the media environment. I think, frankly, Isaac, the work that you're doing with Tangle is a necessary piece of this larger puzzle. It just so happens that we're focused on changing the incentive structure of our politics and think these reforms will have the biggest bang for its buck, as they've already demonstrated to do where they've been won across the country. All right, Nick, before you get out of here, I'm curious, you know, looking ahead, what's on the Unite America roadmap the next six months, the next year or two? What states are you guys looking at? Where do you feel like you have some opportunities to

make some headway in the kind of near future? When we look to 2024, which is an election year and ballot campaigns are on the map, I mentioned Nevada is on the ballot for round two. In Oregon, the legislature on a bipartisan basis referred a bill to the ballot, initiative to the ballot, that would implement instant runoffs for both the primary and the general election, which is a step towards the Alaska-style system. That will be on the ballot. And there are a couple states where campaigns are currently signature gathering for top two nonpartisan primaries in South Dakota, for the top four nonpartisan primary in Idaho, and there may still yet be states to come. So we're looking at ballot initiatives.

We're also looking at legislative campaigns, states like New Mexico and Pennsylvania, which have efforts to open their close primaries to independent voters, which would enfranchise over a million voters ahead of the next election, or states like Georgia or Virginia that are working to implement instant runoffs, including to replace very costly runoff elections that exist in that state in Georgia that cost a lot of money, that depress voter turnout. So across red and blue states from coast to coast. There are many opportunities for election reform to advance next year that we're quite excited about and encourage your listeners to get involved. There are great groups like Veterans for Political Innovation and Represent Women and Rank the Vote and Represent Us.

These groups are building grassroots infrastructure to support these efforts all around the country as we work to build a democracy where voters come first. All right, Nick Triano, before you get out of here, how about you? Where can people keep up with your work in Unite America? How can they help out if they want to get involved somehow? The website's uniteamerica.org. I'm on X as Nick Triano, if we're calling that these days. I'm on X as Nick Triano, if we're calling that these days. And I have a book coming out, Isaac, which I haven't shared in any interview yet. So it's called The Primary Solution. It'll be published next March and pre-orders are now available for those that want to learn more about this topic.

Amazing. I love it. Congratulations. I know writing a book is a huge mountain to climb. So that's awesome to hear. I'll obviously be reading it. Nick Triano, thank you so much for the time. I appreciate you giving us a part of your day. I know a little fire alarm went off in the middle of our interview, so I hope your building survives and everybody's safe and all right over there. We think things are

excited here. Thank you, and thank you for Tangle. and thank you for Tangle. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited by John Long. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bukova, who's also our social media manager.

Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. For more on Tangle, please go to roottangle.com and check out our website. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, We'll be right back. web is family's buried history and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older,

and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed.