Tangle - INTERVIEW: Isaac talks with former Congressman Ken Buck

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Starting point is 00:01:00 From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we've got something special for you. I'm sitting down with former Representative Ken Buck. He had just resigned from Congress when we conducted this interview a couple weeks ago. We recorded this on April 12th. He was representing Colorado's fourth congressional district, and he was first elected in 2014. Ken Buck is a super interesting guy. He was a member of the Freedom Caucus, who has obviously been in the news a lot recently. And he's one of these guys who, ironically, because of his last name, regularly bucks his own party. I mean, he is open to criticizing people he works with on his side of the aisle.

Starting point is 00:02:11 Right before we conducted this interview, he had made a bunch of headlines for referring to Marjorie Taylor Greene as Moscow Marjorie. He was an outspoken critic of what was happening in Congress while he was in there. And now we had a chance to sit down and talk with him when he had left Congress. So I was expecting him to be pretty much an open book and talk bluntly and forthrightly about a lot of his opinions. And he did that for the most part. I think he kind of dodged one question about how he was going to handle supporting Donald Trump in the upcoming election. But aside from that, I felt like a lot of the answers he gave were pretty genuine and what I would expect based on what I've read about and heard about him. This was my first time ever interviewing him

Starting point is 00:02:55 or meeting him. We did this remotely. John, our podcast and YouTube producer, actually went to former Congressman Buck's home in Colorado and got him set up at home with a little mini studio so he could do the interview. So I appreciated the time he gave us, even though I know he has some more free time now that he's retired. But I think you guys are going to enjoy this one. For me, it was a really fascinating interview and I hope you like it. Ken Buck, welcome to the show. How are you doing, sir? I'm doing great. It's good to be with you. Thank you for coming on. I am so interested to speak with you today. I've got a million questions, but I think it makes sense to kind of start at this current political moment for you.

Starting point is 00:03:50 You've recently resigned from Congress. I'd love to hear a little bit about your decision-making process. Why am I sitting here talking to you as former Congressman Ken Buck right now? Well, you're sitting here because I decided not to run for re-election. I announced that back in November. And the reason is real simple. We have some huge problems that we need to deal with. November. And the reason is real simple. We have some huge problems that we need to deal with. Spending, immigration, you name it. And Republicans, the other side does it too, but Republicans are lying to the American public. The election wasn't stolen. We don't have political prisoners from January 6th. We have criminals who were assaulting police officers and destroying federal property. Those kinds of lies, I think, undermine our credibility and our ability to deal with some of the most serious problems.

Starting point is 00:04:30 So I announced that I wasn't running for re-election. And as I got back into America and started talking to people, not in campaign mode, but really listening to what they were saying, people believe we have the worst two presidential candidates in modern history, major party nominees in modern history. And so I looked at the situation and I want to get involved in how we select our candidates and how we choose the people who we put on the ballot. And that doesn't happen for another three years after this election cycle. So I left early so that I could get involved in that issue and try to make sure that we are doing the right thing and in the right way. You know, I've been following politics for a long time.

Starting point is 00:05:15 I'm a political journalist. I cover national politics for a living. I'm familiar with you and your record and your career. I mean, you're a staunch conservative, someone who I think, you know, has conservative bona fides up and down your resume. It's sort of shocking to me, from my perspective, from where I'm sitting, that someone like you is having trouble functioning, you know, with a Republican House majority. Why is it that somebody with your credentials can't really coexist with where this current House conservative Republican majority is going right now. Well, there's a difference between conservative and MAGA. There's

Starting point is 00:05:51 a big difference. Conservatives believe in funding Ukraine and having Ukraine defend themselves against Russian communism. Conservatives believe that we should make sure we protect the unborn. Conservatives believe all kinds of things that Donald Trump has walked away from, that Donald Trump does not prioritize. And yet there's certainly a conservative thread through Mago World, and it's not as if it is some kind of hidden liberal agenda. It is its own brand of conservatism, but it isn't the Reagan conservatism. It isn't the traditional conservatism. It isn't the conservatism that I think is best for the country. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about the Ukraine stuff too, because that seems to be

Starting point is 00:06:40 one of the big fights that's coming up in Congress right now. And I know you're no longer a member of the House, but you were there a few weeks ago. So I feel like you'd have a pretty good read on where things might be heading. What do you think is going to happen with this fight to fund Ukraine and to support them in this war? I mean, you made some pretty strong comments about Marjorie Taylor Greene. One of your former colleagues this week called her Moscow Marjorie, sort of implying that she had Russia's interests in mind. I mean, is there a real contingent of members of the House who are going to stop this funding from coming down the pike? And how do you see this playing out? Well, let me explain Moscow Marjorie, if I can, for just a second. It is very clear that Russia is putting messages into our social media stream in America. And it's also very clear that some Republicans in the House and some Republicans outside the House are picking up on those messages and delivering those messages.

Starting point is 00:07:47 delivering those messages. The first thing that Marjorie said after the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel was, we need an investigation to see if Ukraine is selling the weapons that we're giving to them on the black market to see if those weapons were used by Hamas against Americans and Israelis. No evidence of that, but it's something that Russia put out there to undermine Ukraine and our willingness to help Ukraine fight against communism. So constantly hear the messages that Russia's putting out from these folks. I don't think that Marjorie has Russia's interest at heart. I think she's promoting her social media account, and she's doing it with messages that Russia's putting into the stream, the stream of consciousness and thought leaders. And so I think that it's a danger, and I think that what's going to happen on the floor is that Mike Johnson is going to do the right thing. He is on the right

Starting point is 00:08:38 side of history. We need a vote. Doesn't mean it's going to pass, but we need a vote on Ukraine funding on the floor. And for those people to suggest that a speaker should lose his job because he gave a vote, they fundamentally misunderstand the legislative process. That's what legislation is all about. Get a vote. If you convince people not to vote for it, great. But to stop something from coming to the floor that is as important as Ukraine funding is just not good policy.

Starting point is 00:09:07 I'm curious if maybe you can make the case to me. I mean, I think, you know, I agree with you certainly about the divisions and kind of the MAGA world and some more traditional conservatives about how to approach this war. But I think the sentiment that many of those representatives like Marjorie Taylor Greene are representing is one that is kind of catching hold across the country right now. I mean, polling shows that support for our funding of Ukraine in this war is dropping pretty precipitously over the last year. So, you know, someone who's been in the room who understands this issue well and understands, you know, the motivations of supporting a country like this, what's your case? I mean, why should we be,

Starting point is 00:09:45 you know, continuing to fund Ukraine when we have all these problems at home, as many people ask? Well, we can chew gum and walk at the same time. You know, the problems that we have at home, I hear things about, well, you care more about Ukraine's border than our border. We need to make sure that we are funding enforcement at our border. We need to implement a lot of the Trump policies that were in existence to reduce the border crossings that are occurring right now. And, you know, remain in Mexico, the agreements with Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Honduras, El Salvador, many of those policies would have reduced this flow of illegal immigrants significantly. We need to go back to that. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't fight communism. That doesn't mean that Russia's annexation or invasion of Ukraine isn't the first step to

Starting point is 00:10:42 threatening more of Europe. Europe's watching. They're a huge trading partner for us. They are a huge ally in stability and world peace. We can't turn our back on Ukraine, but we can solve problems here at home at the same time. You mentioned Mike Johnson and your belief that he's going to do the right thing and bring some kind of funding bill up for a vote. I'm curious if maybe you could tell us a little bit about your relationship with him and what your read on him as a leader is right now. Yeah, I have a huge amount of respect for Mike. I should say Speaker Johnson. I'm not in Congress anymore. But I served on the Judiciary Committee with Mike for four years. Four years, six years,

Starting point is 00:11:23 I'm not sure how many years he was there. But he is, he is a thought leader in Congress. He is someone who is conservative to the core. And he also cares about the institution. And I think that's so important with speakers that, that they understand that it's not just their party's interest that they need to promote. It's really America's interest in, in how the Congress is perceived and how the Congress acts. And so I think Mike is a great person to step up at this point in time. Has he made some mistakes? Has he been cautious because of the small majority? All those things may be true, but when you look at the person himself, I think he's the right man for this time. You know, I'm curious to hear, maybe you reflect

Starting point is 00:12:05 a little bit about on the transition to Speaker Johnson. Obviously, you were involved in the removal of former Speaker Kevin McCarthy. Now we're in a position where, once again, there are these threats on the motion to vacate. Do you have any regrets about your decision in that previous vote? Do you feel like maybe there's a standard that's been set now that is going to be problematic going into the future? I don't have any regrets about it, and I'll tell you why. I think that what Kevin did was not what he said he was going to do. And I don't want to get into a public argument with Kevin McCarthy. He is a good person, and he did his very best in terms of dealing with a large herd of cats. But the reality is, he said his number one priority was spending.

Starting point is 00:12:52 If you care about spending, you change the institution, because the institution is set up right now to spend, period, end of story. We're going to get more votes by addition. We're going to keep adding programs and spending until we go off the cliff, frankly. And if that was his number one priority, and he wasn't just saying that, we should have had a subcommittee on every committee in Congress that dealt with oversight of the agencies that they're responsible for, that they have jurisdiction for, make sure that we are reducing spending for all agencies. And then the real spending issue are entitlements. We've got to get to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and other entitlements. And the only way to do that is convince the American people that we have done everything we can to cut spending in all agencies, and then we will deal with the entitlements and try to get closer to a balanced budget. You know, you are one of many members of Congress who has decided not to run

Starting point is 00:13:52 for reelection this year. And as somebody who's following this quite closely, I'm starting to see a bit of a trend in the comments that these departing members of Congress like yourself are making, which is largely about just this polarization and the dysfunction that you're seeing in the House and how hard it's been just to get anything done. Can you talk a little bit about how you've seen Congress change over the last 5, 10, 15 years? I mean, what is it for you that was kind of a breaking point where you just said you didn't feel like this was going to be a productive place for you to be anymore? So I think it is dysfunction, and it's a good word to describe what's going on. It hasn't just occurred in the last year and a half or the last five years. It's something that's really

Starting point is 00:14:42 built over time. If you look at the number of expulsions that we've had from Congress or motions to expel, if you look at the number of impeachment motions, if you look at the number of just how the Constitution and how the rules in the House are being used in a way of lobbing bombs back and forth between the parties, it's wrong. The January 6th committee that subpoenaed the records of members of Congress, that's something nobody would have thought of several years ago. I first came to Washington, D.C. to work for Dick Cheney on the Iran-Contra investigation, there was absolutely behind the scenes a collegiality. Even if in front of the camera, there was certainly emotion

Starting point is 00:15:31 that was shown. People respected each other in a way that doesn't exist anymore. And that's where I think we've really lost the ability to work together on difficult issues. We still get the easy issues done, but the difficult issues, spending and immigration and some of the really tough issues that Congress is facing, those are the ones that it's hard to get people to work together. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. When I was doing some research for this interview and just reading up on some of the public comments you had made recently about your experience, one of the ones that stuck out to me was that you said you felt like you got more work done when Democrats controlled the House, which is not, you know, typically the group in the minority, I think, feels kind of stymied by the majority group. I'm wondering if you could maybe talk a little bit about that. And then also,

Starting point is 00:16:34 I don't know if you can explain in your mind how we get back to some of that collegiality that made that possible, that made it possible for you to get more work done as a minority party. That made it possible for you to get more work done as a minority party. Sure. Well, I worked with David Cicilline, who has now left Congress and is back in Rhode Island. And we worked together on antitrust issues concerning big tech. And that was a really important project that we had. And so many Republicans just came up with this nonsense. Well, we shouldn't interfere in the marketplace.

Starting point is 00:17:09 There is no market. These are monopolies. They don't have a market. They don't have competition. The antitrust laws were set up with good reason that brought this country great wealth and prosperity and innovation. And that's so important that we look at those laws and update those laws with the new economy that we have right now. So I was happy to work with David and other Democrats and bring a lot of Republicans along to vote on that. The leadership, frankly, in both parties were opposed to those bills. And a lot of that good work didn't see any – we didn't see the fruits of our labor. But the other issue that I thought was just amazing to me was I was a prosecutor for 25 years. I went into court to represent victims, to give voice to victims, women who have been sexually assaulted and sexually harassed in the workplace. We had a bill that prohibited certain clauses in their contracts,

Starting point is 00:18:07 nondisclosure clauses and arbitration clauses from being enforced. And it was very simple to me. I'm on the side of the victim. I'm not on the side of the rapist. And so many of my Republican colleagues stood up and fought for these big corporations to continue this terrible practice. And a majority of Democrats voted for it. And we got close to a majority of Republicans. But I couldn't figure out why the special interests in D.C. on an issue. There's no corporation that's declaring bankruptcy tomorrow because of a change in this law. It doesn't hurt the American economy. Let's do the right thing for women in the workplace. And I was just really disappointed. So there were a number of things that I was able to

Starting point is 00:18:51 work with Democrats on that if we were in the majority or when we have been in the majority, wouldn't have gotten done. You know, it's interesting. I guess one of the things I'm trying to parse as somebody on the outside looking in is whether it's, you know, the media environment and the polarization from the kind of national politics, the White House, or whether it name names, but just people who are spending more time on Twitter or Facebook than they are actually drafting laws or legislating or doing the work that traditionally Congress has been about. Do you feel like it's a problem with the people who are coming in, who are running in these elections and winning House seats, or do you feel like it's the environment that they're coming into that's sort of making it harder for them to work across the aisle or actually do the work? No, I don't think it's the environment.

Starting point is 00:19:49 I think they're creating the environment. We have a problem with how we elect members of Congress, the House, the Senate, governors, state legislatures. And the problem is that someone can win a primary with 34% of the vote. a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your

Starting point is 00:20:55 province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCellVax.ca. Learn more at fluselvax.ca. result of that is that we get these people who have no background, who have no business making policy for the United States of America, and what they focus on is getting re-elected and making themselves a social media star in a way that is harmful. It's harmful because they are publicly attacking particular members. It's one thing to have a policy debate on social media. It's one thing to have a policy debate on TV or radio. It's another thing when you attack a particular member. Now, there are folks out there in the public who love that.

Starting point is 00:21:55 And the social media stardom increases. But it doesn't help when you have to close the doors and actually solve problems. You know, there are a lot of solutions out there people have proposed to the kind of primary problem you just described. I mean, whether it's ranked choice voting or open primaries, is there an idea in your mind about how we might be able to fix that and address that kind of root problem you just identified? lot of ideas right now. And I'm talking to folks and I'm trying to figure out what the best solution is and also what the best process is to make that solution happen. I think it's really important that the states, and I believe this for healthcare, I believe it for abortion, I believe it for all kinds of issues. The states are the best level to try and see different types of innovation. And so if it's ranked choice voting, how did it work in Alaska? How did it work in California? How did it work in the state of Washington? And should it be changed a little bit

Starting point is 00:22:58 when a group goes to Pennsylvania or goes to Florida or goes to some other state? So all of those things, I think, need to be studied really carefully. And then I think rolled out in a way that people are adverse to change. And in this case, we need to change. We need to change the way we elect folks. And so I think we have got to come up with the best policy. I'm still studying that issue. I've been out all of three or four weeks at this point. So some of this, the process I'm going White House right now. You know, as somebody

Starting point is 00:23:45 who was in the House for a while, who got to work with a lot of politicians from across the aisle, like you just talked about, I'm sure you've gotten a good understanding of where the Democratic Party is and what direction they're heading. What's your assessment of President Biden and how he's been doing leading the country? What kinds of things come to mind when you think about the elements of his record that are really important to you? Well, I think there's the person and I think there's the policy. Let's go to policy for a little bit. I think President Biden hasn't seen a federal program that he doesn't love and wants to expand. And we can't keep spending money

Starting point is 00:24:26 at the rate we're spending money right now. We can fund Ukraine. And I think we would get very broad Republican support. We wouldn't get everybody, but we'd get broad Republican support if we had to pay for it. If we went into the IRS funding bill and said, you're not going to get 87,000 new employees, you're going to get 20,000 new employees. You're going to get 20,000 new employees. We're going to take some of that money to fund Ukraine. If we went into the Inflation Reduction Act, which was anything but an Inflation Reduction Act, and we said, we're going to take some of this money and we're going to fund Israel. We're going to fund Ukraine. We're going to fund the Pacific Rim to protect Taiwan and South Korea and Japan and other countries from Philippines,

Starting point is 00:25:08 other countries from Chinese aggression. Those are good policies to find money that's going to be spent on the wrong things and put it to the right things, or reduce spending altogether is even better. But I think that President Biden's biggest mistake is that he has overspent, caused inflation, and really hurt the economy. As a person, I really question whether President Biden is fit for another four years in office. And I think that the Democrat Party is so afraid that President Trump's going to get reelected that they have not thought outside the box. They have not been innovators in how do we really address this. And I think it's a huge mistake for them to make Joe Biden the nominee in this election cycle. Are there House Democrats

Starting point is 00:25:59 who you've spoken to who share that assessment? I mean, do you feel like that's a concern that's held in the party? And, you know, obviously it's not something any of them are going to say publicly. Well, I'm not sure which assessment, the policy assessment on spending too much money. About President Biden's fitness. Yeah. Well, Dean Phillips is in the House and he's certainly one that shares that assessment. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but- No, we had him on this show. He told us outright. Yeah, okay, great. I think that that's a fair assessment. I think behind the scenes,

Starting point is 00:26:31 there are a number of Democrats who would quietly say the same thing, not just in the House, but in the Senate, and not just in the Senate, but governors and others. It is a serious concern, and his vice presidential candidate is an even more serious concern. If something, God forbid, happened to Joe Biden in his second term in office, having this vice president step up and be president is even scarier. People wanted to impeach Joe Biden, and I'm telling them, what are you going to get? You know, that's a ridiculous concept because this vice president is not ready. All I hear are word salads out of her mouth.

Starting point is 00:27:09 She is not ready to lead this country. I want to talk a little bit more about the spending question, because I know this is an issue that you care a great deal about. It's one I care a great deal about. And I hear you on, you know, the IRS pay for to fund Ukraine. And that's obviously a super relevant idea to bring forward in order to maybe win over some votes in the House on that specific issue. But I think zooming out, just looking at our debt and deficit situation, we're going to need a lot more to kind of fix the problems that we have. And from where I'm sitting, it seems obvious to me,

Starting point is 00:27:46 at least, that, you know, reforming something like Social Security or Medicare is or Medicaid is a necessary thing to do. I also happen to think that we need to address some of the bloat in the military and, you know, maybe not necessarily cut spending, but find ways to fix some of the waste that we have there. Do you think that's, those are proposals that there are politicians in Congress, you know, who are brave enough to bring forward and actually try and sell voters on? Because right now, you know, we have this election coming up, but Donald Trump and Joe Biden, neither of them seem interested in talking about reforming social security because they know it's a politically toxic thing to suggest.

Starting point is 00:28:27 So a big problem with reforming social security, first, we've got to make it absolutely clear that the promise that we've made to seniors is not going to be broken. What we need to do is we need to reform social security as it applies to workers entering the workforce. So people in their 20s to mid-30s are not going to be able to retire at the same time that I'm going to be able to retire, or that others with my color hair are going to be able to retire. But I think the real problem is, on the one hand, you are saying, and this is what the Democrats don't like, we're going to raise the age, retirement age for

Starting point is 00:29:05 Social Security. It makes sense to me because, frankly, the lifespan in America has increased, and therefore, raising the retirement age makes sense. On the other hand, you get the policy that Republicans don't like, and that is you have to raise the cap on the taxes. You've got to go from $140,000 up to $240,000. And we have more Americans making higher incomes, and so that cap – but that's a tax increase. And as soon as you start talking about tax increases with Republicans, you got problems. And so those are the two main policies that will make Social Security solvent again. And when you get to Medicare, much more difficult issue.

Starting point is 00:29:59 And, you know, it's driven by all kinds of factors that we need to look at. But there are solutions. But both sides are going to have to swallow hard and convince the American public that saving Social Security is worth it. And this is what we're going to do to save it. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. after this quick commercial break. You know, I'm curious to kind of hear how you intend to approach this upcoming election, given some of these policy differences and policy similarities that we're talking about, you know, on both sides of the aisle. You said, you know, you don't feel like President Biden is fit for office and that he has, you know, been spending recklessly. And you, on the other side, you have a former president, Donald Trump,

Starting point is 00:30:51 who I know you've been very critical of. Do you plan to endorse the Republican nominee, former President Donald Trump? How are you going to navigate that with your party if you don't? I'm happy to come back on in October and answer that question. Right now, we haven't had the conventions. We haven't seen what's going to happen with President Trump's vice presidential selection. There are a lot of issues to me that are still wide open. I will not support a convicted felon for office. We've got some trials ahead of us, and we'll see what happens with those trials. But I'm not ready now to say anything is off the table. I want to get back to Congress for just a moment. Another thing that I saw you talking about recently that really hit home for me as

Starting point is 00:31:38 an issue that I cared about and is related to the election question too, is the sort of quote-unquote perpetual fundraising issue we have in Congress, where many members are so focused on kind of winning the next election that they can't actually focus on the work that's in front of them. You're out of Congress now, and I know you're going to be looking for all different ways to sort of throw your weight around and solutions to some of these problems you care about, working on them from the outside in. Could you explain this issue to people who might not understand what it's like to be a member who wants to hold on to his seat and why this is something that really matters? Sure. The simple answer is that it takes multiple millions of dollars to run in a competitive district. And you can raise money.

Starting point is 00:32:26 Now it's $11,600 or some number around there. For a married couple, you can get a contribution of $11,000 some odd dollars. It takes a whole lot of $11,000 to get up to $2 or $3 million. And it takes a lot of $50 checks from small donors to get up to $2 or $3 million, and it takes a lot of $50 checks from small donors to get up to $2 or $3 million. And so it requires a lot of time. You're running every two years, and every two years, you've got that same large amount to run. And therefore, you've got to go to lobbyists, you've got to go to others and ask them for money. And while you're doing that, you're also trying to speak and help outside groups raise money. They can raise money in larger amounts and spend money in larger amounts. And so if those outside groups are supporting a particular member of Congress,

Starting point is 00:33:18 that's a big deal and helps to get over that hurdle. The fundraising for some members takes up about half of the time that they have in D.C. and in their districts. And that really takes away. Because the other thing that happens in D.C. especially is you've got constituent groups come in. You've got the chiropractors today and the dentists tomorrow, and they all come in and they expect to see their congressman. So you're not sitting there thinking about what's the answer to Social Security? What is the right balance between retirement age and taxes and some of the other issues that are out there? You don't get that time to think. You're basically the box of cornflakes. Other people are promoting you, marketing you, and you have to find ways to raise the money to help them get that done. Do you see a way to fix that, to address that? I mean, how can we change that dynamic fundamentally?

Starting point is 00:34:46 I don't see an easy way to do it. I don't believe in public funding for campaigns. I think that raising money is, and I don't mean 50% of someone's time, but raising money is. To give money to somebody and help that person get the message out is certainly covered by the Constitution and should be covered by the Constitution. So there is no easy answer for how do we fund campaigns and give members the time to do their job. I think one of the important things is to have turnover, to have term limits. And I'm not saying a short-term limit, but if you had 10 or 12 or 14 years for people in the house, they have an advantage with name ID, they have an advantage in some other ways as an incumbent, and it gives them some experience in the policymaking area and an ability to learn issues. I knew issues an inch deep and a mile wide. And then it came to antitrust and I got to dig down a little bit. And it came to,

Starting point is 00:35:31 you know, safety in the workplace. I got to dig down a little bit. But for the most part, we know just enough to make sure we're voting the right way. And we rely on people to do the committee work who we trust. And then we have to somehow come to that conclusion with the people who have had the chance to dig down. So I think the finance question is really tied to the term limit question in the House. Yeah, that's a fascinating way to frame it, the inch deep, mile wide. Yeah, that's a fascinating way to frame it, the inch deep, mile wide. And I think it speaks off. First of all, I'm curious. I mean, I don't very often get to talk to somebody who was in Congress and has retired so recently. How have you been spending your time the last few weeks? What does a former member of Congress do when he finally gets a few weeks off? Well, I'm spending my time right now detoxing,

Starting point is 00:36:42 and so I am exercising and I'm eating better. And I am not getting on a plane every week and have a two-hour time change and screw up my sleep schedule and all those kinds of things. I'm spending my time by watching seven-year-old baseball games. I have some great grandkids who will be Major League Baseball players. And I'm getting to see them develop through their years. All kinds of good things. I love cooking and I'm getting to see them develop through their years. All kinds of good things. I love cooking and I love eating. And so for me, knowing what goes into my food is really important and I just really enjoy that. And it's nice to be able to call people and I'm not asking for money. People are actually taking my calls now because I'm not there begging that I need another dollar to get another mailer out. And so it is a much more relaxed.

Starting point is 00:37:31 I was just texting with a friend and I was telling him that life on the outside is good. It's almost not quite like a prison sentence, but it's kind of like a prison sentence. When you kill your number, it is a relief. Yeah. So I guess maybe that's the answer to the question, but I was curious too. I mean, do you envision a return to public service for you in the future in some capacity? I mean, what kinds of ideas do you have about how you might spend your time now that you are on the other side? Well, I think public service is a really good word to use. I have no intention of running for office again, and I have no intention of serving in an administration in any capacity. But I think public service is broad enough that the answer is yes. I want to work on this election issue. I want to work on competition policy. I want to work on a number of different areas and being able to do that in a way that allows me to retire at some

Starting point is 00:38:28 point in the future. I want to go out and continue to talk on TV and other places and talk about why these issues are so important and why Americans need to get involved in our political system. One last thing before we go. I mean, we've been talking about a lot of things that are broken in our country and the things we need to fix. And I'm curious if maybe you could talk a little bit about what gives you hope, what gives you optimism? I mean, you are somebody who left a very important chamber because of some of the dysfunction that you were seeing. But you seem like you're still in a pretty good mood. What's your message to Americans who might look around and feel like this country isn't worth fighting for or we're sort of in a really bad way right now? Well, let me tell you something. We don't need to make America great

Starting point is 00:39:17 again. America is great. America is the greatest country in the history of the world, and it's the greatest country in the history of the world because of our people. I had the real honor to nominate young people for the military academies. I got to interview those people. I got to talk to those people. They love this country. We have so much potential with our young generations. They love this country. They want to serve this country. They love the freedom that we have in this country. And I have great optimism that if we, if us old folks just get out of the way and turn this over, it's going to be in the right hands. They have the optimism. They have the answers. They're willing to sacrifice. They want that input to make sure that their sacrifice is worthwhile. So I am an

Starting point is 00:40:06 optimist because I've seen the young people that care so much and are so gifted and talented in our country. All right. Well, former Congressman Ken Buck, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate the time. And let's keep in touch. I'd love to do it again as the election approaches and we see how some of these big issues break down going into the time. And let's keep in touch. I'd love to do it again as, you know, the election approaches and we see how some of these big issues break down going into the future. I would love to do that, too. Thanks for having me on. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall.

Starting point is 00:40:43 The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kedak, Bailey Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kabak, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website. Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a

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Tangle - INTERVIEW: Isaac talks with former Congressman Ken Buck

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