Tangle - INTERVIEW: Will Kaback talks with CNN's Air Safety Analyst David Soucie

Episode Date: October 11, 2025

Back in January, there was a tragic incident where an American Airlines flight collided with a military helicopter near Reagan National Airport in Washington, DC. A few days after the crash, we published a special report on the incident. About a week later, we published a deep dive Friday edition about the crash, trying to make sense of how something like that could happen. And one of the people who I spoke to was David Soucie, who is CNN's air safety analyst. He's a former FAA safety inspector and the author of a book called Safer Skies, which is about the past and the future of airline safety. So overall, he is an expert on these questions. He provided a lot of invaluable insight into the crash when we spoke back in January. But I hadn't heard from him since then. We hadn't had a chance to reconnect. That is until this week when he reached out to me over email to let me know that he had some information about the impact of the government shutdown on the air safety space and the way that it was impacting airlines. So I jumped at the opportunity to speak with him. We had a really interesting conversation about some of the reports that have come out this week of air traffic controllers allegedly taking sick days to get out of work when they're not being paid. And also, more broadly, about whether air safety is actually being impacted by this government shutdown and how it could be impacted if the shutdown continues for days or weeks more. I'm sure this is a topic that's top of mind for anybody who is planning to fly in the near future. But also if you're just somebody who flies in general, David and I talked about some of the changes that have been made to the air safety infrastructure since the DC crash nine months ago, how he feels the overall infrastructure is in the United States right now, and whether the government shutdown could exacerbate any existing issues. So if you've read any of these reports from airports across the country experiencing flight delays and cancellations because of significant air traffic controller shortages, and you've wondered, it safe to fly right now? David offers a great perspective on where we're at and the level of concern that you should have. Ad-free podcasts are here!To listen to this podcast ad-free, and to enjoy our subscriber only premium content, go to ReadTangle.com to sign up!You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our Executive Editor and Founder is Isaac Saul. Our Executive Producer is Jon Lall.This podcast was hosted by Will Kaback and edited and engineered by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Jon Lall.Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Senior Editor Will Kaback, Lindsey Knuth, Bailey Saul, and Audrey Moorehead. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Looking for a community that has it all, welcome to Crossings, the urban hub of West Lethbridge. At Crossings, you'll find a vibrant village designed for living, working, and connecting. With top-notch schools, a state-of-the-art rec center, retail spaces, and parks, it's more than a neighborhood, it's a lifestyle. Enjoy NHL-Size arenas and aquatic center, an accessible playground, a 55-acre sports park, pathways, and a library with enriching programs. Learn more at crossingslethbridge.ca.

It's Greg from the Side Note podcast, and I'm here to tell you about the new Google Pixel 10, which for those of you who know me, no pixels are my favorite phone, so I was delighted when I was gifted one. Now the Google Pixel 10 comes with Gemini built in. It's essentially like an AI assistant that's there to help you at any time. It can go through my inbox and summarize it for me, which has been super helpful. I also struggle with meal prepping and it can make custom recipes based on the food that's in my fridge. Recently, I use it to help me plan a trip to San Juan Puerto Rico. Day one, start your day in Old San Juan. Grab a coffee and light breakfast at a local cafe. Again, the Google Pixel 10 has Gemini built in, so it helps me get things done faster,

learn new things, and find inspiration seamlessly. Learn more about the Google Pixel 10 at store.gov.com. The Hulu original series Murdoch, Death in the Family, dives into secrets, deception, murder, and the fall of a powerful dynasty. Inspired by shocking actual events and drawing from the hit podcast, this series brings the drama to the screen like never before. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark, watch the Hulu original series Murdoch, Death in the Family, streaming October 15th on Disney Plus. Hey, everybody.

This is Will Kayback, Tangle Senior Editor, and I'm coming to you today with a special report on air safety in the United States. Back in January, there was a tragic incident where an American Airlines flight glided with a military helicopter near Reagan National Airport in Washington, D.C. About a week after the crash, we published a deep dive Friday edition about the crash and trying to make sense of how something like that could happen. And one of the people who I spoke to was David Sousie, who is CNN's air safety analyst. He's a former FAA safety inspector and the author of a book called Safer Skies, which is about the past and the future of airline safety. So overall, he is an expert on these questions.

And he provided a lot of invaluable insight into the crash when we spoke back in January. But I hadn't heard from him since then. We hadn't had a chance to reconnect. That is until this week, when he reached out to me over email, to let me know that he had some information about the impact of the government shutdown on the air safety space and the way that it was impacting airlines. So I jumped at the opportunity to speak with him, and we had a really interesting conversation about some of the reports that have come out this week of air traffic controllers, allegedly taking sick days to get out of work when they're not being

paid, and also more broadly about whether air safety is actually being impacted by this government shutdown and how it could be impacted if the shutdown continues for days or weeks more. I'm sure this is a topic that's top of mind for anybody who is planning to fly in the near future, but also if you're just somebody who flies in general, David and I talked about some of the changes that have been made to the air safety infrastructure since the DC crash nine months ago. And generally, how he feels the overall infrastructure is in the United States right now and whether the government shutdown could exacerbate any existing issues. So if you've read any of these reports from airports across the country experiencing flight

delays and cancellations because of significant air traffic controller shortages, and you've wondered, is it safe to fly right now? David offers a great perspective on where we're at and the level of concern that you should have. So without further ado, here is my interview with David Susie. Let us know what you think. Hey, David, great to have you back on the show. I will. Thanks for having me. So I want to start with the topic that I think is top of mind for most people, which is how

the government shutdown is impacting air safety, the extent to which it is impacting air safety. We've gotten reports in the last 24 hours or so about several airports across the United States that are experiencing delays or flight cancellations because of air traffic controller shortages. It seems to be exacerbated on top of the existing shortages that we've talked about when we talked just eight months ago after the plane crash in Washington, D.C. So I'd love to just get the lay of the land from your perspective. How severe are these shortages? What are you hearing from people in air traffic control? And is there an air safety risk that's

elevated right now because of the shutdown? Well, it's a great question, but there's two sides to it. You know, we talk about the pressures and the fact that there's delays and that sort of thing due to air traffic control shortages or controller shortages. But the important thing to remember is those existed before the government shut down. I haven't seen an increase in those things, although it's being touted as that's why things are more delayed. But it's important to point out that everyone in this industry, all the air traffic controllers, the airway safety specialists, the pilots themselves. All of the folks that are that are part of this team understand that they have a

24-7 job here. They knew that when they got into it. They signed contracts saying that they would stay in here and hang out and be there for everybody because it's a common good. And they understand that. Professionals do. And so I want to make that clear that no one's intentionally begging off of the work or whatever needs to be done right now. Other than a few that may have called in sick more than they would have. They're using their sick days, but that can come back to haunt them, too, because if that's determined to be some kind of job action, like they're saying, hey, we're disputing what's going on with our pay or whatever it is, then they could be banned from federal employment completely, and

the unions actually notified those air traffic controllers to make sure that they're not doing that. If they're legitimately sick, take your sick leave, but don't use your sick leave as a ploy. Quick follow up on the sick leave question in particular. I saw it. Transformation Secretary Sean Duffy said that they had noticed a slight uptick, I think was the words that he used in the sick day requests since the start of the shutdown. How would that be determined, you know, whether somebody was using a sick day to beg off of work? Well, it's only if it's under investigation. They look for things that are suspicious, such as a change and how much sick days they've had over the past few years, that sort of thing. But I would expect to see a slight uptick

because here's what happens is if you don't use those sick days, you can lose them. And so if you have an opportunity at this point to take them, you'll take them. And if it's because you're not getting paid right now, it might help that. But it still comes down to whether if you are investigated and they have to come back and check it, you'll have to show a doctor's note or have a witness or something like that that said, yes, I was truly sick and unable to be at work. So that's where it would come into play. No one has to prove it up front at this point. But if it does become that, then that can become an issue. Yeah. There was also a report I read this morning that was from the Burbank Airport, that they went six hours without any air traffic

controllers in the past day. That's obviously a smaller airport. That's not a major airport like we've seen Nashville, Chicago, Dallas. A few others have had shortages that have led to some delays, but not an outright dearth of air traffic controllers. Do you worry at all about the potential for situations like Burbank becoming more common as the shutdown continues? I'm not really concerned about that becoming more common, but that does happen. And when it does, there's backup plans for that. There's double redundancy and triple redundancy for that type of situation. At this point, Burbank can transfer their air traffic controls to other facilities.

That's one option. As far as the ground control and what's going on there, what happens there is that they monitor that and they advise pilots. If there's no air traffic control, no one to handle that, then those calls are routed to another area and they'll tell them take your alternate airport if it's it was too busier they can't land there so there's contingencies for all of that when you say there's no air traffic controllers for this many hours that doesn't mean that there weren't any flights landing there it doesn't mean that that everything is unsafe the safety factors and the margins of error are there so if there's something that happens the pilots are aware of it ahead of time they

know what's coming what's coming they know if they have enough fuel to get to the next destination if needed. When you're talking to people who are in the industry right now, what are they feeling about the shutdown, both within air traffic control and other parts of the air safety infrastructure? Well, I've spoken with many pilots over the last few days just to see what is the impact. What's going on? Are they getting delays? Are they getting movement? And one in particular, I'll just use the name Andrew right now. But I spoke to Andrew, and he said he flew into Las Vegas. he flew into back east. He pretty much went all the way across the country just yesterday. And he said it was totally transparent. There's nothing that was different. There was no

notums that came out that said, hey, don't go to this airport or that. Everything was exactly normal. And that's what I've heard from several other pilots as well over the last few days. So I'm not seeing that there's any criticality or there's anything that's affecting safety. I do think that over time, if this goes on too long, it can make some delays. It will have some impact. The thing to flyers need to remember is that how that impacts them is not in a safety mode. What affects them is their schedule. That at that point, what's going to happen is if there is some shortages of air traffic controllers,

which, as I mentioned, that's been that way before. And what happens there is they, like with LaGuardia and a few of the other airports, they reduce their ability to land there. They have a limit on how many planes can land. And so they limit that. And the pilots know that ahead of time. The airlines know that ahead of time. So my advice to travelers today in this situation is to keep calm, plan ahead,

make sure that you're prepared for delays. Mentally prepare yourself. Don't get upset when the schedule changes because you can now expect that to happen, as you should normally anyway. But I think be very aware of the fact that schedules can change. be very calm and patient about the fact that you have professionals that are trying to do the right thing for your safety. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.

Need an escape from the city that actually feels like an escape? Just an hour from the GTA, Waterloo Region offers something truly unexpected, We're talking eerie corn mazes tucked behind farm gates, hidden garden patios where the cocktails taste like stories, and indie festivals popping up in places you'd never expect. One minute, you're walking through an advanced tech hub. The next? A harvest ho-down with goats, alpacas, and a mechanical bowl. And yeah, both feel right. Waterloo region is where Old World Charm meets New School Energy.

Canada's largest October Fest celebration, interactive light festivals, craft cider sips, vintage shops, and maybe even a horse-drawn buggy cruising past your latte stop. This fall, don't just go somewhere. Go somewhere unexpected. Stay Curious. Explore Waterloo Region. Plan your trip at staycurious.ca. The Hulu original series Murdoch, Death in the Family, dives into secrets, deception, murder, and the fall of a powerful dynasty.

Inspired by shocking actual events and drawing from the hit podcast, this series brings the drama to the screen like never before. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette, and Jason Clark, watch the Hulu original series Murdoch, Death in the Family, streaming October 15th on Disney Plus. When we spoke in February following the airplane and the helicopter crash in Washington, D.C., we talked through a few different areas of air safety. I mean, you reiterated a similar message to what you're saying now, which is that, you know,

by and large, the U.S. aviation system, commercial aviation system, is very safe. There's these multiple levels of redundancy that prevent disasters like that from occurring. But obviously, things like the air traffic controller shortage are real, and they have been longstanding issues. And there are concerns to address. In the time since that crash, it's been about eight and a half months now, have you noticed any immediate changes in the air safety infrastructure system? and are there areas of concern that persist coming out of an event like that? Well, what's interesting is within the FAA air traffic area, we'll address that first, but the air traffic area, what I have noticed is there's a lot more notices coming out

about what the limits are for a particular airport. They didn't really see that that much before. If they had shortages, they would just try to double staff or they would have one controller, carry two stations, that sort of thing. That's really reduced. I haven't seen a lot of that lately. what I do see is the fact that the FAA is making notices that this airport is at capacity or that the capacity has changed and they'll put out a note that says this airport or a notice

to the air carriers saying that this airport is above its limit right now, so you're going to have to divert flights or change flights or cancel flights to accommodate that. So in the past, prior to the incident in Washington, we really didn't see that much at all. They just continue to drive these air traffic controllers more and more and more, longer hours, having to carry more stations, fewer supervisors. That's how they used to do it. They don't do that anymore from my experience at this point. I've also seen that there is an effort to graduate these new classes of air traffic controllers on somewhat of an expedited timeline. Are you aware of those reports?

Or have you read about that? I have not read about that. it would surprise me that if it's expedited, I'm very familiar with what that program is, having gone to the Aeronautical Academy myself and not fair traffic, but we eat lunch with, we hang out with those same people that are in those programs, and the washout rates were very high, at least 50%. So I would probably need to do some research to find out if that washout rate has changed, that would be my primary concern.

But an expedited schedule can certainly be done. and still maintain the capability of the capacity. What we're looking for in an air traffic controller is the knowledge, the skills, the abilities, and any other thing that might have to do with it, like their personality. Can they handle it? Can they not their psychological profile? So those are all things that are looked at. Even under expedited training, what I would expect that to be?

And then again, I don't know for certain. But if I was to do an expedited training, I would simply have the training go longer hours during the day. So they used to only do four hours a day. And now if they expedited that, brought it up to six or seven hours per day. I think that might be a way to expedite it and still maintain a safe training mechanism. Sure. Do you think that the situation with the supply of new air traffic controllers demands that right now? Absolutely, it does.

It's been demanding that for a lot of years. They keep saying that there's maybe 2,000 short, and then the number changes to 3,000. but in my estimation, especially if they're bringing in a new system right now, they're not only going to have to train new people. They're going to have to train the existing people on the new system. So what I would be doing if I'm looking at budgets right now, I'd be dumping everything I can into that training budget out there at the Mike Munrooney Aeronautical Center and other places for air traffic controllers

to get the training, to prepare the training and to make it efficient and effective because just training 2,000 new people is one thing. But taking the habits of the experienced air traffic controllers and putting them into a new system could be very, very difficult to do. David, I want to just finish by circling back on this question of the status of air safety and how people should feel about flying in the United States right now. So can you just reiterate or put a pin in that message of the degree to which there should be any change in how people evaluate flying right now in the midst of this government shutdown?

Well, that's a good question. I get it quite often. And my first response in that question is to say that aviation safety, in your opinion of aviation safety, is very personal. If you feel unsafe in flying, then don't fly. That's really what it comes down to. But having said that, I could sit here and tell you it's the safest thing in the world, which it really is. You're safer in the sky than you are on the train. You're safer in the sky than you are on a bus or in your car or any other motor transportation. Now, those are statistics, and that doesn't help someone who's just literally afraid to fly. So what we're trying to do is, I hope that I can influence people to understand just how many professionals. There's tens of thousands of people who devoted their entire life to making your flight safe, that one flight, and the engineers that build the airplanes, the airplanes themselves, how structurally sound they are. It's really easy as a flyer to start focusing in on these one events or this one event and understand that there's, again, tens of thousands of flights every day that successfully complete and go in there. And I recommend

that you look at any of the air traffic control sites where you can see the actual airplane movements. And you'll see just exactly how many safe flights are completed every single day. And that may help with any concerns you have about it. But is there anything right now? Is there something that has to be done right now, there's always something that has to be done right now with safety. There always is. But there's also triple redundancy on everything. If there's something fails, there's something behind that. If that fails, there's something behind that. And not only triple redundancy, but the ability to indicate and communicate the fact that something has failed and to put a stop to it at that point, those safety mechanisms are all there. And they're all there

to four years or your own safety. So I hope that helps people. Yeah, I mean, I certainly appreciate that perspective, just as someone who, you know, pays attention to the reports that you mentioned about incidents in the air. Obviously, we covered the DC plane crash. I think it is really helpful perspective to keep in mind and appreciate your insight across the board, especially as it relates to this shutdown. David, if people want to follow along as you're continuing to talk and write about this, where would be the best place for them to do that? Well, I have a YouTube channel. You can just look up David Sousie. I think it's under D.R.S.O.S. Dr. Suse or something on YouTube. But I I also got a site called Why Planes Crash, which isn't very comforting for people.

So what I did was I'm starting very excited about the new thing that I'm doing now. It's called MySafSkies.com. And what MySafe Skies is is for hesitant flyers. They can go there, they can research their flight. They can find out how old their airplane is. We haven't kicked this up yet. It's going to be about another month in the making, but we'll have it up and running before the holiday season of travel. And at that point, you'll be able to listen to various blogger.

and podcasts that we do with people that are afraid to fly this evening on doing an interview with the lady named Kelly, who is just really afraid of turbulence. And I asked her, I said, what is it about turbulence that scares you? She goes, it's just violent. It's scary. And I said, do you know what turbulence is? And she said, yeah, I do. And I said, do you?

She goes, actually, I have no idea what turbulence is. So I said, let's start with that. So the podcast this evening is going to be interesting. and that will be posted on that mysafe skies.com. So if you're hesitant about flying, if you want to know what's going on in the air, go to mysafe skies.com after this month and you'll be able to get a lot of information

to make you more comfortable about flying. Awesome. Well, David, thank you again for the time and looking forward to hopefully having you back to talk about the air traffic controller shortage being addressed and some of these issues that we're talking about being patched. But in the meantime, we'll be following along and thanks again for your work. Great.

Thank you, Will. And thank you for your work and thanks, Tangle, for what you're doing in the news media areas. I appreciate that. Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul,

and our executive producer is John Law. Today's episode was edited and engineered by John Law. Our editorial staff is led by managing editor Ari Weitzman with senior editor Will Kayback and associate editors Audrey Moorhead,

Bailey Saul, Lindsay Canuth, music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75 and John Lull. And to learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website at readtangle.com. Puforia, that feeling you get once you've finally pooped. Using the power of natural SENA from the Sena plant to promote bowel movement, senocot laxative gently relieves occasional constipation, typically in six to 12 hours.

If it is hard to pass, try Sennocot S. It uses natural Sena plus a stool softener to help you achieve pooforia. At Medcan, we know that life's greatest moments are built on a foundation of good health from the big milestones to the quiet winds. That's why our annual health assessment offers a physician-led full-body checkup that provides a clear picture of your health today and may uncover early signs of conditions like heart disease and cancer. The healthier you means more moments to cherish. Take control of your well-being and book an assessment today. Medcan, live well for life. Visit medcan.com slash moments to get started. Not a billionaire, not a problem.

you can still do something legendary by leaving a gift to charity in your will. Even 1% in your will can change the game for a cause you care about without taking away what you or your family need. It's a powerful way to make your mark. Anyone can leave a legacy. Willpower shows you how.

Learn more at willpower.ca.