Tangle - Jordan Neely's death.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Starting point is 00:00:19 Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum. Some independent thinking without all that hysterical nonsense you find everywhere else. I'm your host, Isaac Saul. I hope you guys had a great weekend. Today's topic is a difficult one. We are going to be talking about the death of Jordan Neely, the man who was choked to death on a New York City subway last week. Before we jump in, though, as always, we're going

Starting point is 00:01:12 to start off today with some quick hits. First up, eight victims were killed and seven have been hospitalized after a gunman opened fire inside a mall in Allen, Texas. Separately, eight people were killed in Brownsville, Texas, when a Range Rover slammed into a crowd at a bus stop outside of a migrant shelter. Police have not yet determined if the crash was intentional. Number two, a Washington Post-ABC News poll found President Biden trailing Donald Trump by seven points in a head-to-head poll, as Biden's approval ratings have hit new all-time lows. Number three, the World Health Organization declared an end to the COVID-19 global health emergency, and the United States is ending its official COVID-19 emergency on Thursday. COVID-19 emergency on Thursday. Number four, the United States economy added 253,000 jobs in April and unemployment fell to 3.4 percent, down from 3.5 percent in March. Number five, North Carolina lawmakers passed a 12-week abortion ban that Governor Roy Cooper, the Democrat, is expected to veto. We want to turn out of the growing outrage over the death of a man on the New York City subway.

Starting point is 00:02:42 The 30-year-old with a history of mental illness died Monday after being placed in a chokehold after witnesses say he was threatening other passengers. There are some new developments in a controversial case right here in New York after a man died when he was put in a chokehold following an altercation on the subway. This incident happened on Monday, but scrutiny has continued to grow as this video circulated. And yesterday, Jordan Neely's death was ruled a homicide. circulated. And yesterday, Jordan Neely's death was ruled a homicide. On Monday afternoon, Neely was aboard a subway train in New York City when he began shouting at other passengers and, quote unquote, acting erratically, according to witnesses. Another passenger on the train, identified as 24-year-old Marine veteran Daniel Penny,

Starting point is 00:03:20 came up behind Neely and put him into a chokehold while two other passengers helped Penny restrain Neely. After several minutes of holding Neely on the ground, he stopped moving, at which point medics arrived and failed to revive him. New York City's medical examiner determined he had died from compression of the neck. Neely, who is homeless, was known by some New York City residents as a Michael Jackson impersonator who often performed around Times Square and on the subway. In the moments leading up to the altercation, witnesses said he shouted that he was hungry, thirsty, and ready to die or go to jail before reportedly throwing his jacket on the ground. That's when Penny came up behind Neely and restrained him. Juan Alberto Vasquez, an independent journalist, filmed Penny holding Neely in a chokehold for several minutes in a video that generated national attention. In the video, Neely is being held in a headlock

Starting point is 00:04:10 position while he tries and fails to break free. A second passenger pins Neely's arms down while third holds his shoulder down. After several minutes, one bystander reportedly tells Penny to let Neely go, saying Neely defecated himself and that Penny was going to kill him. As the video spread online, some described it as a deadly overreaction to a person with mental illness, while others defended Penny for stepping in when Neely was threatening passengers. Some pointed to the racial dynamics of the interaction, noting that Neely was black and Penny was white, and that Penny may have viewed him as more threatening because of his race. Neely's father told the New York Daily News that he had not seen or spoken to his son in four years.

Starting point is 00:04:49 He also told the paper that Neely's mother had died violently in 2007, the victim of a strangulation, and that Neely had to testify against her boyfriend during a murder trial when he was 14 years old. CNN reported that Neely was on a list run by New York City's Department of Homeless Services as someone with acute needs. Penny, a resident of Queens, New York, has not been charged with any crime, though the medical examiner's office ruled Neely's death a homicide and protesters are calling on the city to charge him with murder. Neely had been arrested 42 times in New York City, including on three charges of unprovoked assaults on women on the subway between 2019 and 2021. Petty larceny, theft, and jumping subway turnstiles were also on his rap sheet. One woman claimed to know that he had pushed her toward the tracks on Sunday night at the same

Starting point is 00:05:36 station where he was killed. New York City Mayor Eric Adams asked residents not to rush to judgment about what had happened until the investigation was complete. There are many layers to this, Mr. Adams said. I have faith in the criminal justice system and I'm going to let the process take its place. Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the Democrat from New York who represents parts of Queens and the Bronx, said the video showed a murder. Killing is wrong. Killing the poor is wrong. Killing the mentally ill is wrong. Why is that so hard to say? She tweeted. The death of Neely has set off a fiery national debate about policing intervention, mental health, and race. Many compared the incident to the 1984 subway shooting when Bernard Goetz, a white man, shot four black passengers on the subway. Goetz avoided assault and murder charges by claiming self-defense, saying he feared he was going to be mugged.

Starting point is 00:06:26 Today, we're going to take a look at some reactions from the left and the right, and then my take. First up, we'll start with what the left is saying. Many on the left blame Neely's death on our underfunded social safety nets, saying Neely was failed by a system that neglects the homeless and mentally ill. Some argue that Penny is another example of Americans using excessive violence when they shouldn't. Others say Neely was already dead to society before he was killed by Penny. In Defector, Albert Berneko said Jordan Neely just needed some help. Neely was possibly in the midst of a mental health crisis before a white man came over and put him in a chokehold and held him in that chokehold for 15 minutes, by the end of which Neely was dead. That's straightforwardly murder by

Starting point is 00:07:23 any reasonable moral standard. Nobody should be surprised that someone with no place to stay who was hungry and thirsty and tired might also be upset about that. Imagine some God's eye view of what happened, Brunecko said. There's a place full of people. Into this place comes a person who has nowhere to live, who is hungry and thirsty and tired and in obvious distress, who very probably, like a huge number of Americans, including many without permanent residences, suffer from mental illness. Who is vulnerable here? The easiest thing in the world would have been for someone to spare water or food for Neely, or try to pry off the guy literally strangling him to death.

Starting point is 00:08:02 Jordan Neely was already dead before he got on the train, Errol Lewis wrote in New York Magazine. Modern America, including New York, designates some categories of people as socially dead, part of an underclass that is subject to exclusion, indifference, or even outright hatred and violence, Lewis wrote. To be black, destitute, homeless, and mentally ill in our city is to be one of those outsiders, existing in a kind of internal exile from society's circle of care and concern. Witnesses say Neely didn't seem like he wanted to hurt anyone, but the doomed man's words were sadly accurate about the choices he believed New York offered, prison or death. It seems Neely had encountered many of the clinics, hospitals, and social service organizations we collectively and optimistically call a social safety net, including the Bowery Residence Committee and

Starting point is 00:08:49 Bellevue Hospital, Lewis wrote. Employees from the citywide mobile crisis outreach team brought him to a hospital or shelter five times in 2020, yet this system is ludicrously underfunded and badly lacking in quantity and coordination. This is what happens when the sight of the distress becomes so common that it is both fearsome and exhausting. In the New York Times, Roxane Gay warned about the supposedly good upstanding citizens who are fatally enforcing new norms for how we should conduct ourselves. In Kansas City, Missouri, a 16-year-old was killed after ringing the wrong doorbell. In upstate New York, a 20-year-old woman was shot for pulling into the wrong driveway. Two cheerleaders in Texas were shot after one got into the wrong car. In Cleveland, Texas, a man killed five people after his neighbor asked him

Starting point is 00:09:34 to stop shooting his gun. One pregnant woman in Nashville was shot at for suspected shoplifting. And sometimes, there is no gun, Gay said. Was Neely making people uncomfortable? I'm sure he was, but his were the words of a man in pain. He did not physically harm anyone, Gay wrote, and the consequence for causing discomfort isn't death unless, of course, it is. News reports keep saying that Mr. Neely died, which is a passive thing. We die of old age, we die in a car accident, we die from disease. When someone holds us in a chokehold for several minutes, something far worse has occurred.

Starting point is 00:10:12 No one appeared to help Neely, though two passengers helped the former Marine. The people in that subway car prioritized their own discomfort and anxiety over Mr. Neely's distress. All of the people in that subway car on Monday will have to live with their apparent inaction and indifference. All right, that is it for the leftist saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. Many on the right say the city of New York failed Neely by not putting him in an institution or imprisoning him after he committed so many crimes. Some argue there is faux compassion from the left who would be arguing for a different policy solution if they really wanted Neely to be helped. Others say this is the result of a lack of policing and what happens when citizens think they have to take things into their own hands. The New York Post editorial board said New York failed Jordan Neely. It's too easy to pin the blame on the man who restrained him.

Starting point is 00:11:07 The real villains who made their two lives collide with such tragic consequences are the city's broken mental health system and antiquated mental health laws, the board wrote. Neely had dozens of arrests and multiple emotionally disturbed person reports to his name. His family had tried to get him into treatment. A warrant was out for his arrest for assaulting a 67-year-old woman at the time of his death. In truth, Neely's death is on the hands of progressives who want to defund the NYPD, yet offer no realistic or practical plan to get the dangerously mentally ill into care. The hard left, with indifferent support from most liberals, utterly opposes Mayor Eric Adams and Governor Kathy Hochul's mild efforts

Starting point is 00:11:46 to enforce involuntary treatment of people that clearly need help. Innocent New Yorkers shouldn't fear random attacks, like getting shoved onto subway tracks or being trapped in a car with a madman. The elected officials should focus on the other failures that culminated in Neely's death. The faster money and data move, in Neely's death. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web,

Starting point is 00:12:34 his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. In National Review, Rich Lowry's scoring the faux compassion around Neely and the use and abuse of his death. At the end of the day, no one really cared about Neely. Not enough to get him the help he needed, indeed, to insist on it, Lowry said. Imagine if we emptied the nursing homes so people with dementia could wander the streets eating out of trash cans and sleeping on grates, while office workers stepped around them on the way to work?

Starting point is 00:13:09 It'd be unthinkable, right? But for some reason, we allow a class of other mentally impaired people, schizophrenics, to do the same thing. This is the hangover from the 1960s, deinstitutionalization and a host of other policy mistakes. We'll learn more about the particulars of the confrontation and how justified Daniel Penny was in putting Neely in the chokehold for as long as he did, Lowry said. Yet we do know that, in the largest sense, it never should have happened. After all the years when his mental incapacity and bizarre and threatening behavior had been well established, Jordan Neely never should have been on that subway car out of his

Starting point is 00:13:43 mind. All sorts of people will now claim to speak in his name and honor and his memory, but not enough people honored him when he was alive, when he was allowed, like so many others, to molder in his illness, an ongoing personal tragedy even before the terrible end. In the Daily Signal, Ben Shapiro said, when you don't police crime, civilians will. The media has found its latest iteration of its favorite narrative. White man harms black man, Shapiro said. Neely wasn't just shouting threat

Starting point is 00:14:11 to passengers. He had been arrested more than 40 times in the past. Those arrests range from drugs to disorderly conduct to fare beating. When he died, he carried an outstanding warrant for assaulting a 67-year-old woman. A bevy of people apparently report that he had attempted to shove people onto subway tracks more than once. So why was he out on the streets? The answer is that the city of New York has decided no longer to prosecute crime, because doing so might create the unpalatable spectacle of racial disparity in crime statistics. The consequences of this idiocy are dire, for both the general public and for people like Neely. How long can the authorities in New York expect everyday citizens to experience

Starting point is 00:14:50 hostile and violent encounters before taking action? This would be perfectly obvious were Neely White and the Marine Black, in which case the Marine and political class would declare the Marine a hero. This would be perfectly obvious were Neely White and the Marine black, in which case the media and political class would declare the Marine a hero for protecting others on the subway car. All right, that is it for the left and the right are saying, All right, that is it for the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So first and foremost, I would just like to say how awful this entire thing is. In an era where every horror of the world gets filmed on a smartphone and uploaded to the internet, we can become desensitized to watching someone getting the life choked out of them in front of dozens of bystanders. But we cannot allow this to become normal or expected or routine. While they disagree on the particulars,

Starting point is 00:15:50 I'm heartened to see that most commentators, right and left, seem to acknowledge a system that failed Neely and that he was not a man who deserved to die. I lived in New York for nearly a decade, and like most New Yorkers, I've run into someone like Jordan Neely more times than I can count. When this story first broke, my immediate assumption was that Penny, the Marine, was not from New York. I actually was surprised to learn that he was a Queens residence, given that most New Yorkers who navigate the city's public transportation do so without violently engaging the homeless or mentally ill who so often co-mingle with the suits on their way to work. I could see how a tourist or new resident may have perceived Neely as a grave lethal threat in a space where

Starting point is 00:16:30 they were unfamiliar, but I was surprised to learn that it was a New Yorker who took the actions that Penny did. Also, like most New Yorkers, and frankly most urban citizens everywhere, I can't say I've ever taken active measures to get someone like Neely lasting help. I've given out food or socks or a $20 bill. Twice, I called 911 thinking I was witnessing an overdose. I always try and make eye contact and acknowledge someone, but I've never taken real action, never interrupted my morning to try and get someone housing or mental health care or even a shower. And perhaps we all share a tiny bit of culpability in the death of someone like Neely. I know as someone with all the things that I need in life, I felt some pang of guilt for not doing more in the past while watching that video. As is typical, I found some of the commentary on both

Starting point is 00:17:15 sides about this issue irresponsible and dangerous. Elected officials calling Penny a murderer before a trial or investigation is not helpful. We do not have any video yet of anything that occurred before Neely was put into a chokehold, and we don't even have a full accounting of witness testimony. That he had already assaulted several people in a two-year span and a few residents claim he had attempted to shove people onto the tracks in recent weeks makes it quite plausible that he was threatening enough for someone to reasonably take action. makes it quite plausible that he was threatening enough for someone to reasonably take action. I also find exaggerating the race angle irresponsible. This isn't Bernie Getz 2.0.

Starting point is 00:17:55 Penny didn't wake up one day with the intent to get violent revenge on a black person, and there is no evidence he harbors ill will toward any race. One of the men who helped Penny restrain Neely was black. The journalist filming the episode was a Mexican immigrant. Like most New York subway cars, this one was full of people from all races and walks of life who either helped restrain Neely or did nothing to stop what was happening. Sure, it's possible that Penny viewed Neely as a greater threat because of his skin color, but framing it as a white versus black crime in headlines and commentary feels like intentionally and unnecessarily inflaming racial tensions. Similarly, many on the right positing that everyone on the left only views Neely as a political tool are way out of bounds. You can disagree with someone's view of this death or

Starting point is 00:18:35 disagree with their policy solution without blithely suggesting they don't care about someone being choked to death in broad daylight. I'm guilty of not doing more than I could to help the homeless. I also felt a great deal of compassion, sadness, and horror when I watched those videos. Those two things can coexist, and it's a cheap talking point to pretend they can't. I also don't think a lack of police presence gives anyone the right to act the way Penny did. Again, I'll wait for more details for any final judgment, but if the details we have stay consistent, Penny clearly overreacted. Even if he was right to restrain Neely, which very well may be true, the group of men outnumbered him three to one and bystanders were warning Penny that he

Starting point is 00:19:16 was going to kill the man who had just defecated himself while being choked. At some point, long before Neely died, Penny should have let up. I also think both sides make strong arguments that can live together. This is what happens when we put people back on the street without proper care. This is what happens when our social safety net is badly underfunded. This is what happens when police are not present and active and responsive in certain areas, and people feel the need to act on their own. This is what happens when we allow violent people with mental illnesses to live on our streets. This is what happens when those same people make contact with our jails, shelters, and mental health facilities, and are then released

Starting point is 00:19:54 in short order without getting extensive care. This is what happens when we have a citizenry drunk on fear and entitlement who view themselves as vigilante heroes with the right to shoot first and ask questions later. Perhaps most notably, this is also what happens when housing costs are completely out of control. We spend a lot of time talking about why people are homeless, drug use, mental illness, criminal records, etc. But the most obvious reason, especially in cities like New York, is that housing is too expensive and too sparse. Neely should be alive, not just because being institutionalized or in prison would have been a better or more appropriate solution for

Starting point is 00:20:30 him than being left on the street, but because someone making verbal threats and throwing their jacket on the ground should not be choked to death. It's always possible that the contours of this story change, but for now it's just another tragic bullet point in a societal breakdown plaguing cities across our country. One of homelessness, mental illness, vigilante justice, broken policing, and failing safety nets. All right, that is it for my take today. We are skipping today's reader question to give our main story some extra space, but I do want to give a quick promotion to Daily Chatter, one of our partners. One of the most common questions I get in Tangle is, can you do more international news? Or what about Tangle for country X or Y or Z? While we focus primarily on politics in the United States, I'm thrilled to announce our new partnership with Daily Chatter, an international news organization built in the

Starting point is 00:21:24 same ethos as Tangle. It's the most neutral, even-handed international roundup I've found and one of the first reads for me every morning. You can try it for two weeks for free and just $29.95 a year after that. 84% of all users who try Daily Chatter for free stick around after their trial. There is a link in today's episode description to check them out. And so far, the feedback from Tangle listeners and readers has been great. All right, next up is our under the radar section. When President Biden ran for office, he promised to restore America's commitment to welcoming people fleeing persecution and to reverse Donald Trump's policies. Now, the Wall Street Journal reports he is instead doing the opposite. Biden is crafting a new system

Starting point is 00:22:12 designed to limit the waves of asylum seekers pressuring the southern border. After three years of Title 42, the pandemic-era measure that made it possible to turn away asylum seekers at the southern border, lawmakers are becoming more comfortable with a future in which it is no longer sacrosanct for people to cross America's borders to seek refuge. Biden is now planning to replace Title 42 with new measures that mimic it. You can read the full story with a link in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The estimated number of homeless children and adults living in shelters managed by New York City's Department of Homeless Services is 67,880. The estimated number of homeless people in New York City residing in public spaces is 3,439.

Starting point is 00:23:06 The estimated cost of New York Governor Kathy Hochul's plans to overhaul mental health care in the state is $1 billion. The increase in major crimes like burglary and robbery in New York last year was 22%, despite a drop in shootings and murders. The number of New Yorkers who had symptoms of a mental health disorder last year was one in five. All right, that is it for our numbers section, which brings us to today's have a nice day story. Doctors in Boston say they have successfully performed brain surgery on a fetus. The now seven week old baby is one of the first people to ever have undergone experimental brain surgery while in the womb, one that may have saved her life. The little girl had developed a dangerous condition that caused blood to pool in a pocket inside her brain, and the condition could have resulted in brain damage, heart problems, and breathing difficulties. But her parents got her into a trial for in utero surgery,

Starting point is 00:23:53 and it seems to have worked. Technology Review has the story, and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. As always, if you want to support our work, please go to readtangle.com slash membership and become a member. We'll be right back here same time tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul,

Starting point is 00:24:23 and edited by John Long. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bukova, who's also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. For more on Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Starting point is 00:25:19 Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+.

Tangle - Jordan Neely's death.

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