Tangle - Michigan mom convicted in mass shooting case.

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Starting point is 00:01:05 your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul. Today is Thursday, February 8th, and we are talking about the conviction of a Michigan mother in a mass shooting case.

Starting point is 00:02:07 She was the mom of a young boy, a 15-year-old, who shot up a school in Michigan, and she's being held responsible for the actions of her son. The big moment in American history, a very interesting case, lots of really compelling arguments on both sides of the political spectrum about this, and really not a left-right issue. People on the left have very mixed feelings about it. People on the right have very mixed feelings about it. I don't think either kind of punditry side is super united on this issue, which is something we see a lot in the stuff we cover. So it's a really fascinating case. I'm excited to jump into it. Before we do, a couple of quick heads up.

Starting point is 00:02:52 First of all, we have a new video on our YouTube channel, getting a lot of fun feedback, positive responses about this video. You should definitely go check it out. It is all about our attempt to create the perfect president, the perfect presidential candidate, I should say. And also we have a new podcast coming out tomorrow and another new podcast coming out on Sunday. So I want to give you a heads up about both of them. First of all, tomorrow, I sat down with Bill O'Reilly, the former Fox News host, the Tucker Carlson. Before there was Tucker Carlson.

Starting point is 00:03:25 We had a pretty fun conversation, chopped it up, disagreed about some things, argued a little bit. And you know what? He was really thoughtful and I appreciated his time. And I know a lot of people really don't like him, especially my liberal readers. But yeah, I'm glad he came on. I'm glad we did it. I thought it was informative. And I think he's quite good at defending former President Donald Trump, certainly better than some other people I've interviewed. So I thought that was pretty interesting. And then Sunday morning, I'm going to be sharing an interview that we are doing today with someone in the Ultimate Free Speed community, the founder of Ultimate Palestine. We're going to be talking about the war in Gaza

Starting point is 00:04:12 and sharing some of his views, the perspectives from Gaza, from Palestine, from Palestinian Americans like him. We're going to be talking about religion's role in this conflict, which I'm really interested in. And that should be coming out on Sunday morning. So keep an eye out for that as well. Looking forward to it. We're ramping up, as promised, ramping up the podcast content in 2024. And super glad to have so many of you loyal listeners here along for the ride. So with that, we're going to jump in today. We've got a guest coming in too in this podcast, which I'm very excited about. And let's kick it off with some quick hits. First up, the United States Senate failed to advance the border security bill that negotiators released last week, the bill failed

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Starting point is 00:06:01 We want to begin tonight with the groundbreaking verdict against a Michigan mother whose teenage son killed four classmates in a school shooting in 2021. The jury of six women and six men found Jennifer Crumbly guilty of four counts of involuntary manslaughter for allowing her troubled son access to a gun, despite warning signs of his declining mental health. For the first time ever, a parent has been convicted in a mass school shooting. Jennifer Crumbly today was found guilty on four counts of involuntary manslaughter. The gunman was sentenced to life in prison without parole back in December. His mother now faces up to 60 years in prison and will be sentenced in April. On Tuesday, a Michigan jury convicted Crumley, a school shooter's mother of involuntary manslaughter, for the role she played in her son's killing of four high school students in 2021.

Starting point is 00:06:54 Crumley is the first parent in the United States to ever be found criminally responsible for their child carrying out a mass killing. Her husband, James Crumley, is scheduled to stand trial on similar charges next month. A quick editor's note, Tangle does not name mass shooters because of the well-documented contagion effect. For similar reasons, where possible, we also try to share limited information about the shooter and their alleged motives. That is going to be particularly hard today, given the nature of the story and the necessity of explaining some things that happened related to Jennifer Crumley's culpability. So we're going to do our best just to not name the shooter. You'll hear us refer to him as the shooter. And just want to give you a heads up because it might sound a little funny in some spots. Crumley, 45 years old, was charged for

Starting point is 00:07:41 failing to secure a gun and ammunition in her home and failing to get help for her son after he displayed warning signs of violent inclinations. She received four guilty verdicts, one for each of the students killed at the school. She faces up to 60 years in prison, 15 years for each guilty count. Her son had already pleaded guilty as an adult to murder, terrorism, and other crimes, and was sentenced to life in prison without parole. During the trial, prosecutors argued that Crumley had abdicated her responsibility to be a tentative to her 15-year-old son. Prosecutors portrayed her as a neglectful mother whose extramarital affair distracted her from monitoring her son's behavior. She and her husband gave their son, then 15, a semi-automatic handgun as a gift days before the shooting, then failed to properly store it. On the

Starting point is 00:08:32 day of the shooting, school officials called the Crumleys because their son had drawn a disturbing image of a gun, bullet, and wounded person, accompanied by quote-unquote desperate phrases. The thoughts won't stop, he wrote. Help me. The world is dead. My life is useless. The parents were called to the school for a meeting but failed to tell officials their son had access to a firearm at home and did not remove him from school. A few hours later, their son took a handgun from his backpack, which nobody had checked, and shot 10 students and a teacher. During the trial, prosecutors showed the jurors social media posts of the student calling his new gun his quote-unquote beauty.

Starting point is 00:09:10 Jennifer Crumley's lawyers argued that it was James Crumley, the father, who had been responsible for storing the weapon, and that the school did not fully inform them of how serious their son's issues were. The jury forewoman told reporters that the jury was influenced by evidence presented that showed Jennifer was the by evidence presented that showed Jennifer was the last adult to possess the gun. Because of a gag order that is in effect until after the husband's trial, neither the prosecutor nor the defense can comment on the case. During the trial, Jennifer Crumley testified that her son had been depressed, but that his mental health never alarmed her. She never took him to a professional to seek help,

Starting point is 00:09:44 and while she conceded she could have taken him home on the day of the shooting, she said she never believed he was capable of committing acts of violence. However, shortly after leaving their son's school, Crumley and her husband saw police cars heading toward it. She then texted her son, quote, don't do it, something prosecutors presented as evidence she clearly understood he was a risk to others. I've asked myself if I would have done anything differently, she testified. I wouldn't have. I wish he would have killed us instead, she said. In journal entries, Jennifer's son said he had zero help for his mental issues. Prosecutors also presented evidence that he had texted his mom about quote-unquote demons and

Starting point is 00:10:23 other hallucinations about their house being haunted. However, Jennifer told the jurors that was just her son messing around and that the family had inside jokes about ghosts in the home, some of whom they'd even named. Today, we're going to examine some arguments from the left and the right about the jury's decision and then my take. A quick note, the shooter's name might appear as the shooter or redacted in our piece. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. First up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left has a range of responses to the verdict, with some suggesting heightened levels of accountability for all involved could

Starting point is 00:11:10 help prevent future mass shootings. Others say the case is a reminder of systemic failures that contribute to those incidents. Still others question the logic of charging the son as an adult while charging the parents for his actions. In Bloomberg, Francis Wilkinson called the verdict a breakthrough. The Crumleys offered their son a remedy familiar to anyone who follows the pathological storyline of America's young white male mass shooters. What the Crumleys' deeply disturbed boy really needed, it seems, was a semi-automatic firearm and plenty of ammo, Wilkinson said. The dead and wounded have failed to dissuade the denizens of Americans' gun culture that firearms don't magically cure the problems

Starting point is 00:11:50 that guns in reality create. Guns in this make-believe world are defenders of instruments of peace and justice. They don't harm, they protect. Parents who make guns available to troubled offspring are at last receiving scrutiny. The father of the Highland Park, Illinois, mass shooter who killed seven and wounded 31 pleaded guilty to misdemeanor reckless conduct for sponsoring his son's gun ownership application. A Virginia mother whose six-year-old brought the mother's gun to school and shot a teacher was sentenced to two years in prison for felony child neglect, Wilkinson wrote. The guilty verdicts against Jennifer Crumley represent a leap forward. Facts have proved impervious to gun culture. Perhaps accountability can begin to make some headway. In CNN, Jennifer Tucker said the case

Starting point is 00:12:35 is a powerful warning to parents. Most parents want their children to be safe, yet many continue to enable household access to loaded guns. The American legal system is structured to focus on the individual, getting to the truth via adversarial system, Tucker wrote. Meanwhile, the American public typically wants a single individual villain to be held accountable. Placing blame solely on the individual shooter is a stance staunchly promoted by the National Rifle Association and other powerful gun rights groups. The Crumley trial and other similar cases shine a light on how a shooter rarely acts alone. It's a wake-up call, alerting us to the need for a cultural shift around this complex issue if we ever hope to

Starting point is 00:13:15 change our country's shameful standing when it comes to gun violence affecting children, Tucker said. This case opens the door for parents to be held legally accountable and reminds all parents of their responsibilities when it comes to gun safety. Everyone wants to find a single villain, but the reality is that everybody is at risk and many people are responsible. In the New York Times, before the verdict was announced, Megan K. Stack asked, what is this mother really guilty of? There is a logical contradiction in the state declaring Crumley an adult with full responsibility for his crimes while prosecuting his parents for gross negligence in child care. Crumley was a child, or he wasn't. He was responsible for his

Starting point is 00:13:57 actions, or his parents were. Can the state argue both positions at once, Stack said? Well, the parents have been excorciated for giving him access to the gun, this is something of a legal dead end. Michigan, at the time of the shooting, did not have a safe storage gun law on the books. It does now. The Crumleys were not legally obliged to keep the weapon locked away from their son. The Crumleys had their share of problems. We can puzzle over the true meaning of fragments of family life in the evidence, but all we really know is this. The Crumley's son was depressed and struggling. Everything else in the end is open to interpretation. The vagueness at the heart of this case is not unlike the emotional haze that clouds our national response to gun violence. It's more about feelings and

Starting point is 00:14:40 perception, about finding somebody to blame, than about clear-cut criminal intent or meaningful reform, Stack said. All we can do, it seems, is punish the people we can reach and go to sleep at night hoping that will somehow help to stem the violence. That is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right is also mixed in their response, with many concurring with those on the left who say the result is a win for accountability. Some say the takeaway from this case isn't about guns, but the importance of parental supervision. Others criticized the verdict, saying Jennifer Crumley's guilt was not adequately proven. The Boston Herald editorial board said it made Crumley precedent for holding parents accountable.

Starting point is 00:15:31 It's a game changer and a welcome one. While most parents work hard to help their children grow into good adults with respect for law in their communities, others are no-shows at the job, the board wrote. Troubled children are essentially left to raise themselves, aided by social media influencers and the messages of TikTok creators. Mental health problems are ignored, dismissed, or passed off to schools to deal with. What should be a strong home is instead a house of mixed-age roommates. Jennifer Crumley had a duty under state law to prevent her son, who was 15 at the time, from harming others. It's the duty of all parents, no matter where they live, the board said. She may have tried her best to dodge accountability, but the jury didn't let her get away with it. We can only hope that this is a precedent,

Starting point is 00:16:13 not just for, God forbid, other school shootings, but for all instances where underage children commit criminal acts. Parents bear responsibility for properly raising their children. Keeping an eye on their behavior and emotional health are fundamental to the job. In Bearing Arms, Cam Edwards explored whether the verdict will be a precedent or an outlier. Gun control activists are hoping that a Michigan jury's decision to find Jennifer Crumley guilty of four counts of involuntary manslaughter for her son's murder of four students at Oxford High School is just the beginning of many similar decisions to come in the future. But their myopic focus

Starting point is 00:16:50 on the fact that the teen's parents purchased a firearm for him ignores all of the other aspects of the case that led the jury to reach their decision. Time will tell if this case is an outlier or the start of a new wave of prosecutions for the parents of juvenile criminals. Should every gun-owning parent be worried that if their kid commits a crime, they'll be charged as well? Owning a gun doesn't make you a bad parent, though that's exactly what the gun control lobby wants the public to take away from the guilty verdict here, Edwards said. Honestly, I think our bigger concern should be simply the well-being of our children. If you see them struggling, talk to them.

Starting point is 00:17:26 Don't ignore what they have to say, but listen and respond accordingly. If you have concerns about the state of their mental health, get them help. You might decide that temporarily removing firearms from your home is appropriate, but that's a decision that has to be made based on your particular circumstances. All right, and next up, in Reason, we cited Billy Binion, who argued that the conviction sets a dangerous precedent. We invited Billy onto the show, and he's here today to talk a little bit about his perspective. Billy Binion, thanks for coming on the show. I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Starting point is 00:18:01 So let's start with just, maybe you could give a little two-minute summary of your position on this verdict from the jury and where you come down about Jennifer Crumbly and her culpability, I guess, here. Yeah, so I understand that Jennifer Crumbly is, to many people, quite the unsympathetic character. But I thought that not only the conviction, but just bringing charges against her at all for involuntary manslaughter were quite the stretch. And I think that can be true even if people agree that maybe she is not, like I said, from

Starting point is 00:18:38 the outside the most sympathetic character. And I say that for a few reasons. For one, I felt like this case came down to not really what the law actually says, what the prosecutors kind of wished the law said. And what I mean by that is in Michigan, the legislature has actually repeatedly declined to pass what's called a child access prevention law, which several states do have. But that makes it a crime to, you know, I think, quote unquote, recklessly give minors unsupervised access to guns. They have since, this mass shooting, put a safe storage law on the books, which dictates how people are supposed to safely secure their firearms, but that also was not on the books when this murder was committed,

Starting point is 00:19:18 and we do not prosecute people retroactively. The law was not actually in effect when Ethan Crumbly carried out these murders. The criminal standard for a case like this essentially had to show that Jennifer Crumbly knew that her son had a murderous streak, that she willfully disregarded that possibility and could have prevented it via quote-unquote ordinary care. And I don't think that this qualifies at all, really. I mean, watching the trial, a lot was made of her expensive equestrian habit and the fact that she had an extramarital affair. And I think the implication was obviously supposed to be for the jury that she cared more

Starting point is 00:20:00 about riding horses and, you know, having sex with someone who she's not married to rather than parenting her child. And I think that it is obviously true that adultery isn't a moral choice, but I also don't think that means she's guilty of involuntary manslaughter. So that's pretty much where I came down. And I think a civil suit would have made sense. I think if some of these parents wanted to sue her in civil court and get damages. But I don't understand. She's facing 60 years in prison. Parents, whether they are good or bad, are not psychic. Right. I mean, so I think the most damning evidence against her was, you know, that she came to the school, she got called to the school, she saw this drawing,

Starting point is 00:20:42 there was, you know, some disturbing messages in the drawing. It's a picture of a gun and somebody being shot. And, you know, she doesn't tell the school that he has access to a gun or owns a gun. I think that's maybe the core piece of evidence. But you wrote about some kind of countervailing perspectives and countervailing pieces of evidence in your piece that a lot of people are not discussing. Can you talk a little bit about some of the things that maybe complicate the picture here? Yeah, that's, you know, when people cite their support for this prosecution and this verdict, people kind of gloss over one really important thing about the meeting. I agree with you. It always does seem to come down to this meeting with a school counselor, the superintendent,

Starting point is 00:21:25 does seem to come down to this meeting with a school counselor, the superintendent, after they found Ethan Crumbly drawing something on his desk with a picture of, I think, a pistol and something like blood everywhere, you know, the thoughts won't stop, help me, which obviously sounds very dire. So the school summons his parents to their office. They come immediately, as I understand it, and they have a talk about what they should do. And Jennifer Crumbly and James Crumbly, his dad, are told he needs therapy. So they're looking into getting him a therapist. I think there are some phone records that show she had texted her husband that they needed to start investigating that. But also in this meeting, the parents were told that Ethan Crumbly should not be alone. They were told he should not

Starting point is 00:22:05 be alone, and that he had expressed before the parents had gotten there that it stressed him out, the idea of missing homework assignments. So I think when you look at those two things, I can understand why two parents would say, okay, we both have to go back to work, he can't be alone right now, it stresses him out to miss school. So maybe this is the most practical choice to have him go back to class. Something that the school official said was fine. And... Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning.

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Starting point is 00:23:34 Learn more at FluCellVax.ca. I get that that drawing seemed very dire. You know, in hindsight, we can say like, oh, of course he shouldn't have gone back to class. But I totally understand why the decision was made if you put yourself in their shoes when they couldn't be with him right in that moment. And they said he needed to be surrounded by people and that he liked going to school. was drawing those drawings for a video game. You know, we can roll our eyes at that all we want, but like I said, I mean, parents aren't psychic. I really don't believe that they thought to themselves, oh, he's going to go back to class and start shooting people. I mean, the school officials didn't think so either.

Starting point is 00:24:17 And when asked about, when they testified about what they thought of Ethan Crumbly, they were shocked it was him. You know, one of the assistant principals said she couldn't believe it was him because he was such a stand-up student. So it was clearly not just his parents that had missed some of these warning signs. It was the school officials themselves, too. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that I've read about that maybe swayed my position a bit was this idea that parents are actually like the worst people to have clear eyes about their kids. Like there's, I think there's a study that half, 50% of parents of children who have attempted suicide don't even know their kids have attempted suicide.

Starting point is 00:24:57 And of course, you know, it's hard to imagine a parent looking at their 15 year old son and thinking he's somebody who could commit an act of violence. You mentioned briefly in one of your answers just now about different paths the parents of the victims could have taken. And I do think there's a necessity for some sort of accountability for Jennifer. I think some of her actions maybe were bad enough that she should stand trial in some form. You talked about potential civil litigation. I'm just curious if you have any thoughts about how someone like this might be held accountable or how parents might be able to seek out justice in a case like this that is focused on a parent's negligence or whether you think that just shouldn't be an avenue at all. I mean, I think accountability, a civil trial is accountability. You know,

Starting point is 00:25:50 like if she were to have, if the family were to have to pay damages, some of these other families, I, that is to me a level of accountability and it doesn't rise to the standard of, the criminal standard we have in our courts is really high for a reason, because you're taking away someone's liberty. She's facing 60 years in prison. You know, and I know a lot of people, of course, think like, oh, it was just so impossibly stupid that, you know, her husband would have bought her son this, because it was James Crumbly who took him to the store that day over Thanksgiving for this early Christmas present. The family had a long history of going to the shooting range as like, you know, bonding activity. People can roll their eyes at that. I'm not a fan of guns myself.

Starting point is 00:26:33 I've never shot one. I've never been to the range. I understand why people think the culture around guns and kind of the like having killing weapons as a hobby is weird. But it's also it's not a crime to, to like doing that for fun, and obviously he went way further than that and carried out four murders, and that's completely unacceptable, but I don't think for a moment, just to clarify, that either of his parents bought that gun thinking he would do what he ended up doing. Per your question about accountability, yes, I think it is possible to hold someone accountable in civil court.

Starting point is 00:27:09 I think that that's necessary when you're looking at prosecuting someone, like I said, based on not what the law actually says, what they wish it said. The reason that they prosecuted Jennifer Crumbly, in my view, under involuntary manslaughter, is because the actual statute that would have addressed something like this is simply not, was not in the books in Michigan, because she hadn't broken the relevant laws that maybe the prosecutors wish were laws, that they wish at the time the legislature had enacted. I also think I'm going to say one thing that is very, I think, key to kind of the logical incoherence of this prosecution. key to kind of the logical incoherence of this prosecution. Ethan Crumbly was prosecuted as an adult. They said that he, at 15 years old, was fully formed and mature enough to be completely

Starting point is 00:27:54 responsible for his actions such that he received the maximum punishment under Michigan law, which is life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. And then the same prosecutors turned around and told a jury that Ethan Crumbly was a child who would not have done this if he had just had his parents intervene at critical moments. That doesn't make any sense. You cannot say that someone is an adult and fully mature and able to be fully responsible for their actions such that they will never have liberty again, and then also tell a same jury of this person's peers that he was just a wee child that needed help. I think Ethan Crumbly deserved to go to prison. I'm absolutely not going to argue against that. And I think life in prison without

Starting point is 00:28:37 the possibility of parole is defensible under these circumstances. He killed four people. But if that's their position, then it doesn't make sense to say that his parents are criminally liable too. You can't justify that. You can't reconcile that, rather. Billy Binion, you can find his writing on Reason.com. The headline of his piece is Mom's Manslaughter Conviction for Her Son's School Shootings Sets a Dangerous Precedent. Billy, thanks so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me. All right, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to my take. So I have really mixed feelings here. First and most directly, I need to acknowledge that this is exactly what I've been asking for. In nearly every piece I've written about mass shootings over the

Starting point is 00:29:33 last four years, I've said something to the effect of the most responsible person is the shooter, and the next most responsible people are the family and friends who almost always could have done more. Yes, our often unenforced gun laws and the simple prevalence of guns in America play a role. Yes, the way law enforcement treats potential threats is often a big part of these tragedies. And yes, our gun culture today is not at all like the gun culture I grew up with and that I learned about firearms in. But over and over, when I've talked about building quote-unquote blame pyramids, I've stressed that the people close to these shooters have a lot of responsibility and how those people should be put much closer to the top of that

Starting point is 00:30:13 pyramid than they usually are. Now that's happening and, well, I have to confess, I'm getting cold feet. The case against Jennifer Crumley is pretty straightforward. Her son was clearly in distress, and in text messages to friends, he said his parents refused to help him. She and her husband did a poor job of securing the firearm they had bought for him at home. ATF agents said the safe's code was still 000, the factory setting when they went to the house. And if their son's messages to friends are accurate, they ignored him when he pleaded for help. Most importantly, though, on the day of the shooting, they came to school, saw a not-so-subtle drawing their son had made that indicated he was having violent thoughts, and did not take him home, check to see if he had his gun, or even just alert the school that he had access to a firearm.

Starting point is 00:31:00 That is all incredibly damning. The other side is that all of this is much easier to judge after the fact. In the New York Times Daily's episode about this case, a reporter explained that some research has shown 50% of all parents whose kids have attempted suicide aren't even aware of their attempts. In fact, parents have been shown time and again to be some of the worst people to look at their children with clear eyes, which makes sense. How many parents are even capable of seeing their sons as potential threats to their classmates? The details that seem haunting and obvious now might be far less revelatory than we think. For instance, prosecutors presented evidence that Jennifer ignored texts from her son about seeing bowls being thrown in the house and demons that were haunting him. He pleaded with

Starting point is 00:31:45 her to text back, and she didn't. Then they showed that at the time those texts were sent, she was taking pictures of her horses. She cared more about her animals than her own son, the prosecutors tried to show the jury. But on the stand, Jennifer told a pretty convincing alternative story. She explained that her son had been convinced the house was haunted since 2015 when he discovered that it was built in 1920. An Ouija board they got their son for Christmas had only thrown gas on the fire. She, her husband, and her son all joked about the house being haunted. Their son had named the ghost Boris, her husband named it Victoria, and it was all just typical joking around, as her defense attorneys put it. In that light, evidence that seemed like damning

Starting point is 00:32:25 proof that Crumley ignored her son's mental illness looks a lot more benign. There aren't just narrative complexities, though. There are legal issues, too. Many onlookers criticized the Crumleys for not having properly stored the firearm, but Michigan did not have a safe storage law at the time of the shooting. Also, as Megan K. Stack wrote under what the left is saying, it's contradictory to try this shooter as an adult for a crime they committed at 15 years old while simultaneously sending their parents to jail for his actions. Either the shooter is a fully formed adult capable of acting on his own or his parents are partially responsible for his behavior because he is a minor. Somehow the prosecutors convinced

Starting point is 00:33:05 the jury these things could coexist. As Billy Binion said in our interview today, I find that a little bit hard to believe. As for negligence, the strongest argument against Jennifer is that she didn't take her son home or alert the school about his gun. But again, it wasn't just her in the room. The school's assistant vice principal also expressed shock about who the shooter turned out to be, saying, I didn't think he could possibly be the shooter. It seemed odd to me that it would be him. Counselors at the school also said they never believed he might harm others based on his

Starting point is 00:33:37 behavior, responses, and demeanor. So why is Jennifer the only one at fault? This is the fundamental complexity with holding someone like Jennifer Crumley accountable. The questions of what she could or should have done become a lot more obvious with 2020 hindsight, and it raises even more difficult questions about the future. Is this what we want? Parents of mass shooters to immediately become the target of investigations and inquiry? In the end, I think I've landed somewhere a little different than I expected. I do actually think that Jennifer Crumley's actions were egregious and negligent

Starting point is 00:34:10 enough that she should be held to account, and I hope James, the shooter's father, is too. Weighing all the different narratives, not alerting the school about the gun, not checking for the gun herself, and clearly believing somewhere in her heart her son was capable of this, the don't do it text is incredibly damning, it all makes me think there is enough here for Jennifer Grumley to face punishment. I think a short prison sentence or financial penalty would be appropriate. I do not see the use in sending her to jail for multiple years, which seems like a strong possibility. The maximum sentence for her conviction is 60 years. The facts of this case are so damning that it seems fair to send a clear message about the responsibility parents, family members, and friends have, and that could end up being preventative.

Starting point is 00:34:56 Going forward, though, I don't think this should be the trend. I do not hope this is the new angle for trying to stop these acts of mass violence. We need to teach parents and friends to see signs and warn the proper authorities, but we don't need to be imprisoning these people unless, as I think is the case here, their actions are criminally negligent. And if something like failing to provide safe storage for a minor's firearm isn't criminally negligible, then the law should be changed so that it is. To put it as simply as I can, I'm glad Jennifer Crumley is being held accountable for her actions, but it's hard to feel good about convicting parents as a consistent course of action.

Starting point is 00:35:39 We'll be right back after this quick break. We'll be right back after this quick break. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to our reader question today. John from Palatine, Illinois wrote in and said, what would you do if one of the major outlets offered you a life-changing amount of money for Tangle? Ooh, I like the sound of this. Every time I seem to find something independent, they get swallowed up and it never turns out good for Tangle. Ooh, I like the sound of this. Every time I seem to find something independent,

Starting point is 00:36:05 they get swallowed up and it never turns out good for the consumer. They always assure that nothing will change, but it always does. Okay, so it really depends on who the outlet is, how much money they're offering, and what the terms of the deal are. To be clear though, I have no plans of selling Tangle. I'll even say it again, I have no plans of selling Tangle. I'll even say it again, I have no plans of selling Tangle. If the goal is to make a lot of money and work a bit less, I've always thought that far better than selling Tangle would be taking some kind of decreased workload and continuing to help shepherd its growth as a more hands-off CEO. The truth is, I love the work, and though I certainly don't think what I'm doing now is sustainable long-term,

Starting point is 00:36:45 I also wouldn't just give up control for a big check. I also think we are just scratching the surface of what is possible. So if I ever did sell, it would be way down the line when I can show just how valuable Tangle is. That being said, based on other conversations with other media executives, I think that as it is right now, Tangle is worth at minimum roughly $5 million. If I got an offer above that price that allows me to maintain full editorial control, keeps my team in place,

Starting point is 00:37:16 and also helps us grow while taking the business workload off my plate so I can focus solely on writing and producing content, that would be a pretty difficult offer to turn down. You're right, of course, that I'd be signing up for change, and it would never stay the same as it was, but change is inevitable no matter what I do. Change is constant. It is going to come to tangle whether I'm in control or not, and the most important question is just how true to our mission we can keep it. Like my attitude toward dissecting the day-to-day debates we cover, my position is that I'm open-minded. I love having control and I love owning this business, but

Starting point is 00:37:49 there are downsides to it too. I never get a day off and I frequently have more on my plate than I can handle. I have heard and will continue to hear offers from anyone who's interested in supporting this work, whether it's buying us, donating, or contributing as an employee. But one more time, for good measure, I right now have no plans of selling Tangle. All right, that is it for our reader question today, which brings us to our under-the-radar section. China-backed hackers have reportedly had access to critical U.S. infrastructure for at least five years, a new intelligence advisory released on Wednesday said. The campaign would constitute a major escalation in China's cyber attacks against U.S. infrastructure, something well beyond the typical stealing of state secrets. According to the U.S. Cybersecurity and

Starting point is 00:38:38 Infrastructure Security Agency, the National Security Agency, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, critical infrastructure operators need to be aware of the threat and act accordingly. U.S. officials are increasingly worried that China could launch destructive cyber attacks in the lead-up to an invasion of Taiwan. Axios has the story, and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The number of minors in the United States who live in homes with at least one loaded, unlocked firearm is 4.6 million. The percentage of U.S. parents who reported that their child could not access a household firearm is 70%,

Starting point is 00:39:20 according to a 2021 study. The percentage of children in households with guns who reported that they could access a loaded firearm in less than five minutes is 34%. The reduction in all firearm fatalities in children age 0 to 14 between 1991 and 2016 in states with child firearm access prevention laws is 13%. The reduction in firearm suicides in children age 0 to 14 between 1991 and 2016 in those states is 12%. And the reduction in unintentional firearm deaths in children age 0 to 14 between 1991 and 2016 in those states was 13%. The firearm mortality rate for children and teens age 1 through 19 in the U.S. is 6 per 100,000. And the firearm mortality rate for children and teens age 1 through 19 in the U.S. is 6 per 100,000. And the firearm mortality rate for children and teens age 1 to 19 in Canada is 0.6 per 100,000.

Starting point is 00:40:18 All right, last but not least, our Have a Nice Day section. Despite suffering a setback during the COVID-19 pandemic, life expectancy is once again trending upward all over the world. In 2024, European median life expectancy is 80 years old. In North America, it's a little higher. Even better, babies born today will actually have higher life expectancies than that. Barring major disruptions like a pandemic or war, babies will benefit from health advances and societal improvements that occur during their lifetimes. For those in adulthood today, chances of living to 100 have never been better. The Progress Network has the story, and there's a link to it in today's episode description.

Starting point is 00:41:02 All right, that is it for today's podcast. As always, if you want to support our work, go to retangle.com forward slash membership. Don't forget, we've got some very big stuff coming out tomorrow and Sunday. And we've got a new YouTube video up on our channel, Tangle News on YouTube. We've got a lot of content coming out.

Starting point is 00:41:19 We are churning, cooking with hot fire. We'll be back here on Monday, but you'll be hearing from me tomorrow and Sunday. Have a good weekend. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman,

Starting point is 00:41:42 Will Kabak, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot.

Starting point is 00:42:28 Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCcellvax.ca. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel

Starting point is 00:43:00 a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+.

Tangle - Michigan mom convicted in mass shooting case.

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