Tangle - New York's traffic congestion pricing plan.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Can Indigenous ways of knowing help kids cope with online bullying? At the University of British Columbia, we believe that they can. Dr. Johanna Sam and her team are researching how both Indigenous and non-Indigenous youth cope with cyber-aggression, working to bridge the diversity gap in child psychology research. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions. To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca forward happens here. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown.

Starting point is 00:00:40 When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu.

Starting point is 00:01:11 It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCcellvax.ca. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about New York City's now maybe dead congestion pricing plan. This is, to me, a really interesting policy

Starting point is 00:02:07 debate. It's something I think we could see in major cities all across the U.S. if it were to be implemented and successful in one big major city. But it does not look like that city is going to be New York. And we're going to talk about why and what happened. Before we jump in, though, I do want to give you two quick heads up. The first one is really important. Those of you who are listening to this podcast are probably fans of our Undecideds podcast, the limited podcast series where we are following undecided voters. Up till now, we've been publishing episodes of that podcast on this channel, but we just released episode four. It's a brand new episode

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Starting point is 00:04:04 transcript of that to subscribers only a few weeks back, but now the entire interview is up on our YouTube channel. I encourage you to go check it out. All right, with that out of the way, I'm going to pass it over to John for today's main story, and I'll be back for my take. Thank you, Isaac, and welcome, everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, a Delaware jury found Hunter Batting guilty on three felony counts of lying on a federal firearms application in 2018. Number two, the United Nations Security Council adopted a U.S.-led resolution calling on Hamas to accept a ceasefire and hostage release plan offered by Israel. Number three, Teamsters President Sean O'Brien has asked to

Starting point is 00:04:51 speak at both the Republican and Democratic national conventions this year as Joe Biden and Donald Trump seek the union's endorsement. Number four, the port of Baltimore's main shipping channel fully reopened on Monday after a massive cleanup effort following the collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge. At number five, Malawi's Vice President Salos Chalima and nine others were killed in a plane crash in northern Malawi. Well, this is a major development. Congestion pricing will not go into effect here in New York City at the end of this month after all. New York's Governor Kathy Hochul announced today that this first of its kind initiative is postponed indefinitely. The MTA head, Jano Lieber, making his first public comment since Governor Hochul's bombshell

Starting point is 00:05:46 abrupt decision to pause congestion pricing. He said that the news was incredibly difficult and that the MTA will try to figure out funding without the tolling plan. Bottom line, this phase of the MTA's work is a huge challenge and I have a great team that is going to be laser focused on working on this. It may feel right now like things are a little crazy and even that there's a crisis, but we need to stay focused so that we can maximize the situation for our riders. They are our focus right now. That is where our heads are at.

Starting point is 00:06:24 riders. They are our focus right now. That is where our heads are at. On Wednesday, New York Governor Kathy Hochul paused a plan to implement a congestion toll on motorists entering Manhattan below 60th Street. The toll, scheduled to go into effect on June 30th, was intended to relieve gridlock, improve air quality, and provide roughly $1 billion a year to the Metropolitan Transit Authority, more commonly known as the MTA, to modernize the city's century-old transit infrastructure. The pricing plan would have charged different rates for different vehicles, including a $15 charge for passenger vehicles entering the city. Some exemptions or credits would have been included for low-income drivers who live in the congestion zone or who had paid

Starting point is 00:07:04 tolls to enter the city through the Lincoln or Holland tunnels. Prices also would have been included for low-income drivers who live in the congestion zone or who had paid tolls to enter the city through the Lincoln or Holland tunnels. Prices also would have varied based on the time of day peaking at rush hour. Other major cities around the world, including Stockholm, London, and Singapore, have established congestion pricing programs, but New York's plan would have been the first of its kind in the U.S. The pause does not require a legislative sign-off. Hochul only needs approval from the MTA's 23-member board, which she controls. But the state Senate and Assembly must approve legislation to make up for the revenue loss of the MTA. The governor's office suggested that Hochul could temporarily tap the state's reserves to cover the funds and is exploring increasing taxes on New York City businesses as a long-term solution.

Starting point is 00:07:48 Congestion pricing in New York City was first conceived in 1952, but has remained mired in debate and competing proposals for decades. In 2019, then-Governor Andrew Cuomo and the state legislature reached a deal to enact congestion pricing in Manhattan, but the rollout was delayed for years. Just weeks ago, Hochul reaffirmed her support for the plan, calling it critical to making cities more livable. In anticipation of the plan going into effect, the MTA installed cameras, sensors, and license plate readers and signed a $500 million contract with a private vendor to operate the tolling infrastructure. Hochul said concerns over inflation and New York's post-COVID economy led to the last-minute change of plans. Let's be real. A $15 charge may not mean a lot to someone who has the means, but it can

Starting point is 00:08:31 break the budget of a working or middle-class household, she said in a video announcing the decision. I cannot add another burden to the working middle-class New Yorkers or create another obstacle to our continued economic recovery from the COVID pandemic. The plan has long been derided by Republicans, including former President Trump, but has also attracted the ire of Democrats. Before the pause was announced, Politico reported that House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries raised concerns with Hochul about the plan's political blowback to Democrats in vulnerable House districts in an effort to delay its implementation. Recent polling also found congestion pricing is broadly unpopular, with New Yorkers living

Starting point is 00:09:09 both inside and just outside of the city. Proponents of congestion pricing expressed shock at Hochul's decision, calling it a betrayal after decades of work to implement the plan. We've been blindsided, said Kate Slevin, executive vice president of the Regional Plan Association, an urban planning nonprofit in New York. It's a betrayal of millions of transit riders and the future of New York's climate and economy. The plan also faced numerous legal challenges, including a lawsuit brought by New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy, who alleged the U.S. Department of Transportation and the Federal Highway Administration did not conduct a proper environmental review of the plan. These cases,

Starting point is 00:09:43 however, did not appear to impact Hochul's decision to order the pause. Congestion pricing would have provided the largest source of funding for the MTA's $51.5 billion capital program. The agency planned to borrow against the $1 billion of expected congestion pricing revenue to sell $15 billion of debt to pay for service improvements. Now, critical upgrades and repairs to transit lines will take priority over planned initiatives for electric buses, accessible stations, and new track signals. Today, we'll look at reactions to Hochul's decision from the right and the left, and then Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.

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Starting point is 00:11:50 and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season?

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Starting point is 00:12:34 First up, let's start with what the right is saying. The right welcomes the decision, but says Hochul needs to completely scrap the idea. Some suggest the saga reflects poorly on Hochul regardless of the outcome. Others note the about-face will still cost the city millions, but with nothing to show for it. The New York Post editorial board offered kudos for Hochul's congestion toll U-turn. Now make sure it's dead for good. Bravo, Governor, for recognizing that New Yorkers can't afford to be squeezed in yet another way by the state. Although Hochul did support congestion pricing, it wasn't her brainchild. Thank ex-governor Andrew Cuomo for that. So she could be forgiven

Starting point is 00:13:11 for a tactical and graceful retreat, if it sticks, the board wrote. The delay was the obvious choice politically in an election year. A whopping 63% of New Yorkers are against it, and the plan faced opposition from everyone from the teachers union to members of Hochul's own party. Yet she's treating it only as bad timing. Times are hard, and the city is still bouncing back from COVID shutdowns, but signaling that the tolls could return under the right circumstances. The fees would slam all New Yorkers, not just drivers, slowing tourism and slamming businesses. That's all still going to be true even if the city's economic outlook improves, the board added. Address the MTA's funding woes without pilfering

Starting point is 00:13:50 the pockets of hardworking New Yorkers. The governor should insist the MTA get its financial house in order and that local district attorneys crack down on the fare beaters who are costing the system millions per year. The governor deserves big props for listening to her constituents and reading the post. Now, send congestion pricing to the bad ideas graveyard once and for all. In City Journal, John Ketchum argued Hochul's last-minute pause on congestion pricing demonstrates chaotic leadership. Setting aside the merits of congestion pricing, which have been debated for decades, Hochul's abrupt cancellation of a progressive-favored policy has led some on the left to question her leadership. The governor's clumsy handling is yet another example of the

Starting point is 00:14:30 political ineptitude that has marked her tenure, Ketchum said. Hochul stressed that the resulting revenues would be used to improve the MTA's aging infrastructure, but tying the plan to the MTA's funding enabled opponents to characterize it as a cash grab for the dismally inefficient authority, not a genuine attempt to boost Manhattanites' quality of life by reducing vehicular congestion. Staring down the barrel of repeat electoral embarrassment that could potentially spill over into New Jersey and Connecticut districts, the governor decided that backlash from congestion pricing advocates would amount to less of a political hit in November than motivating suburban auto commuters, public employees, Republicans, and other opponents to

Starting point is 00:15:10 come out to the polls, Ketchum wrote. Unlike her predecessor in the governor's office, Hochul lacks the political capital and the will to see her priorities through. In the remote chance that she eventually unpauses congestion pricing, she will look yet more indecisive. In the Washington Examiner, Carter Shrope criticized Hochul's weak congestion pricing backtrack. Given the large number of people and organizations present on either side of the matter, the Metropolitan Transit Authority, climate activists, unions, politicians, and citizens, it's fair to say Hochul was in a tough spot, Schroep said. But to backtrack at the 11th hour like this, with the MTA having already purchased $500 million

Starting point is 00:15:50 of equipment for tolling, is clearly representative of her ineffectual governance. If there was ever a possibility that the plan had problems or would need to be disposed of, why spend the money and drag New Yorkers through this controversy in the first place? The sunk costs here are immense. The reversal comes as positive news to many and is indeed the correct choice, but the evident mishandling of the situation proves Hochul isn't fit for office, Schroep wrote. Inherent to Hochul's decision is the disconnect she has with her constituents. A Siena College survey from April found that 64% of people living in New York oppose the plan. To charge someone for the grand crime of driving into certain neighborhoods is to impose on their liberty. Alright, that's it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying.

Starting point is 00:16:44 All right, that's it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left is critical of Hochul's decision, arguing it sends a troubling signal to other U.S. cities. Some frame the decision as an own goal in pursuit of fleeting political gain. Others say the episode highlights Democratic leaders' struggle to govern effectively. In the New York Times, Tom Wright and Kate Slevin wrote, Kathy Hochul just upended a lot more than congestion pricing. Hochul's action raises questions about whether congestion pricing, which was set to begin at the end of the month, will ever happen.

Starting point is 00:17:17 It will mean continued congestion on some of the world's most traffic-stymied streets and no relief from the air pollution and auto and truck exhaust, Wright and Slevin wrote. The idea had essentially universal support from environmentalists, transit advocates, economists, and policy experts. The fee was expected to reduce traffic in the city's core by as many as 120,000 vehicles a day, significantly improve traffic congestion, and reduce the exhaust that is fouling Manhattan's air. Hochul has said she wants to postpone the program. For how long, she hasn't said, because of the lingering economic impacts of the pandemic. But investing in transit and ending seamlessly endless traffic headaches is exactly what our region needs to continue to recover.

Starting point is 00:17:55 New York has been leading the way on congestion pricing in the United States, and this sends the wrong message to other cities trying to untangle their traffic and mass transit problems. Incurbed, Justin Davidson said, Hochul blew it. New York City should lead the world in urban transformation, as it did when it created a central water supply system in the 1840s, mapped out an expanding grid of streets, built the subways, fast-tracked the technology of high-rise construction, developed a legal framework to control it, and enshrined historic preservation in law, Davidson wrote. Congestion pricing should have marked one of those moments when the city acted wisely to shape its own looming future, to start finally liberating itself from a century of

Starting point is 00:18:35 obeisance to the internal combustion engine. Instead, it's given craven politicians one more irresistible chance to blow it. Like many imperfect but necessary innovations, congestion pricing doesn't pull well, but it's a crucial tool that ultimately benefits everyone by making city streets more navigable and safer, while making it easier for both those who do drive and the non-driving masses to get around, Davidson wrote. If all the effort and collaboration turns out to have been wasted, if Hochul's capricious delay devolves into permanent collapse, then why would anyone bother waging such a protracted battle again? In Slow Boring, Matthew Iglesias explored the large crisis of deep blue governance underneath

Starting point is 00:19:16 Hochul's decision. I'm both very frustrated with Kathy Hochul's efforts to kill New York City congestion pricing at the last minute, and also sort of weirdly sympathetic to her. At some level, she's just trying to help House Democrats win races on Long Island, a worthy and important goal. The congestion pricing plan isn't popular there, and she is prioritizing policy modernization and winning over idealistic pursuit of a niche interest group goal, Iglesias said. But as someone who really likes congestion pricing, I'm annoyed that transportation reformers' ox is the one getting gored here. Congestion pricing was always a political risk. We know from London, Stockholm, and Oslo that voters resist the idea of paying for something that they're accustomed to getting for free. But we also know from these cities that

Starting point is 00:19:58 once congestion pricing is in place, it's proved reasonably popular and politically durable, Iglesias wrote. Now, New York is not addressing its major housing problems or transportation problems, and it's had a U-turn on criminal justice reform thanks to a state leadership that can't set priorities or get things done. And now let's head over to Isaac for his take. All right, that is it for what the right and the left are saying, which brings us to my take. So whenever we go through a stretch of news dominated by court trials, wars, and scandal, I always feel relieved to just have a good old-fashioned policy debate. First and foremost, my baseline position here is that Governor Kathy Hochul should have seen

Starting point is 00:20:51 this experiment through, even if it were for a much more limited time or at a cheaper price point. I say that just to offer an alternative solution to Hochul's political problem before passing any judgment on the efficacy of the policy. Even the people arguing that congestion pricing was going to be a net negative public policy have not argued that it was going to be so bad or so dangerous that we absolutely could not let it go through under any circumstances. Given the relative political risk and the sunk financial cost and irrespective of whether it was going to work exactly as planned or not, I think Hochul was past the point of no return when she decided to pull the plug on this idea. Now, New York is unprepared to navigate the MTA's budget shortfall and has wasted an unbelievable

Starting point is 00:21:36 amount of time, money, and political capital getting a potential solution this far just to have the rug pulled out from under it at the 11th hour. That being said, the debate about the policy is robust and interesting. To me, the most compelling points against the policy are the following. A healthy majority of New York City residents, about 64% according to Siena College and 72% of New Yorkers from the suburbs, oppose the idea. Living in New York is already unbelievably expensive and congestion pricing would just have made it even harder for any commuters who rely on cars, especially the working poor who drive into the city regularly. All of the $1 billion a year

Starting point is 00:22:16 this could generate would go directly to the MTA, which already has a $7.8 billion payroll and seems to be bloated and dysfunctional. In a similar vein, there are some details on what the MTA is going to do, but I'd certainly appreciate more. What will get prioritized and how will the upfront costs benefit the city in the long term? Can the MTA spend the money efficiently given labor and construction costs in New York right now? Can it get to a point where this money is used so effectively we can put current funding sources to other things? These answers aren't totally clear. And finally, the New York's teacher union, the New York Republicans, the NAACP, voters from Long Island and New Jersey, and major trucking companies all came together to fight this plan,

Starting point is 00:23:00 an illustration of the broad and diverse swath of people who opposed it, which always gives me pause. On the other side, I think the most compelling arguments for congestion pricing are the following. Congestion pricing was unpopular in other major cities until it went into effect and voters saw its effectiveness. While everyday New Yorkers might be resistant to it just as they would be of any toll, transit experts, economists, policy experts, and environmentalists overwhelmingly support the idea. Virtually no poor New Yorkers are driving into the city, and the burden would fall mostly on well-off outer borough New Yorkers and major companies. As the Community Service Society put it, quote, our analysis found that just four percent

Starting point is 00:23:42 of the city's outer borough working residents commute to jobs in Manhattan by vehicle and could be subject to a congestion fee. This compares with 56% of outer borough residents who use mass transit to commute to work in Manhattan, the other boroughs, or outside the city. And lastly, not doing anything has its own economic cost. Horrible traffic actually hurts economic output, and air pollution has very real health costs. Broken and dysfunctional subway and bus systems also hurt economic output. Given all that, implementing a bold plan would have appealed to New York pride. As Justin Davidson said, this city should lead the world in urban transformation and experimental ideas like this.

Starting point is 00:24:24 Oddly enough, I think that last argument is the one that sticks with me the most. Jody Avergon, a New York City journalist, podcaster, and my longtime friend put it like this. The political caving is not surprising, but more than anything, this feels like part of a real, we can't try big things in this country anymore story, which is kind of the story of my lifetime. I'm not 100% sure this was good public policy. I just think that it could have been, and I would have at least been curious to see how it played out. Maybe over the long term, the city would have adjusted and perfected the policy. For instance, the working poor could

Starting point is 00:25:00 have applied to have their license plates exempted from the toll rather than just have some discounts applied as the plan currently calls for. Maybe tourists get one free pass a year, or the city can let trucks serving certain industries in at a discounted rate. Perhaps the congestion zone of lower Manhattan could be expanded or contracted, or pricing plans could have come with specific requirements from the MTA to trim its costs and better protect against fare beaters. I'm not sure exactly how this process of calibration would come about, mostly because we never got a chance to see the policy actually go into effect. To me, that unknown is my greatest disappointment. Congestion pricing could have been a broadly unpopular $1 billion revenue driver that became more popular,

Starting point is 00:25:42 normal, and welcome over time. We could have gotten to a place where the policy did minimum harm and maximum good, and the people paying the majority of the fare were the abundance of wealthy New Yorkers and successful corporations who just genuinely didn't care all that much about an extra $15. Or, conversely, it could have flopped, and we could have learned a good lesson and at least been able to say we tried something innovative and daring and big. But instead, there was no attempt and no courage, just a lot of wasted time and resources, and now a lot of useless cameras and idle toll collection equipment all over midtown Manhattan. We'll be right back after this quick break. Burton Lee becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Starting point is 00:26:48 Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season?

Starting point is 00:27:03 Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. Alright, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Penelope in Battlement, Mesa, Colorado. Penelope said, In Tangle recently, Trump was referred to as President Trump. I strongly object to that. Perhaps former president is better. Still, Mr. Trump is not our president,

Starting point is 00:27:51 and hopefully will not be again. Okay, so this is funny. I get this comment surprisingly often, and I also get the sense, Penelope, that you're not a very big fan of former President Trump, so let me just try and be as clear as possible. Every person who has ever served the office of President retains the title. We refer to everyone from President Obama all the way back to President Washington by the highest office they've ever served in their careers. If neither had served as President, then they would be referred to as Senator Obama and General Washington to reflect those next highest, highest titles. For that reason, regardless of how you feel about him, President Donald Trump will always be referred

Starting point is 00:28:30 to as President Trump, and that includes by us. And when we speak about him in the newsletter as a candidate running for office, we will refer to him as former President Trump, just so we can disambiguate him with his main political rival, sitting President Joe Biden. I get that you object to President Trump having been our president and that he is not the current chief executive, but every person has objected to at least one of our presidents and they still have earned the respect of being addressed with that title, including deeply unpopular presidents like Herbert Hoover or those who were marred by controversy like President Richard Nixon. So even if he does not

Starting point is 00:29:05 win re-election in 2024, former President Trump will still be, and will always be, President Trump. All right, that is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod. Don't forget to go check out and subscribe to The Undecideds, and I'll be back here tomorrow. and I'll be back here tomorrow. Thanks, Isaac. Here's your Under the Radar story for today, folks. Gun suicides have consistently outpaced gun homicides in the U.S. for every year over the past 25 years, according to new CDC figures.

Starting point is 00:29:39 The U.S. saw 27,000 gun suicides in 2022 compared to 19,700 gun homicides. While suicide impulses are often brief, widely accessible guns can make them easier to act on and harder to survive, which is why gun suicides account for more than half of all suicides in the U.S. Axios has this story, and there's a link in today's episode description. If you or someone you know needs support now, call or text 988 or chat with someone at 988lifeline.org. All right, next up is our numbers section. The year Singapore implemented the world's first urban congestion pricing program was 1975. The approximate number of daily riders on New York City's subway and bus systems in 2023 is 5 million. The expected reduction in vehicles entering Manhattan's central

Starting point is 00:30:33 business district as a result of New York's congestion pricing plan is minus 17 percent, equivalent to 153,000 vehicles, according to the MTA review board. The amount that large trucks would be charged to enter Midtown Manhattan under the plan is $35. The amount Uber, Lyft, and other rideshares would be charged to enter Midtown Manhattan under the plan is $2.50. The percentage of registered voters in New York City who said they opposed the congestion pricing plan is 64%, according to an April 2024 Siena College poll. The percentage of registered voters in New York City suburbs who said they oppose the plan is 72%. The percentage of New York voters who said they would travel to Manhattan less often if congestion pricing plans were implemented is 14%. And Governor Kathy Hochul's favorable-unfavorable rating

Starting point is 00:31:22 in April 2024 was 40-49%, her lowest ever. And last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. Mesh fishing nets are a popular tool for deep-sea fishers, but they are nearly invisible in the water, meaning that other animals often get caught and become unwanted bycatch. An estimated 300,000 small whales, dolphins, and porpoises die each year from getting entangled in fishing nets, according to the World Wildlife Fund. But this problem has sparked a few creative solutions. A group of German marine biologists have threaded nets with tiny acrylic glass beads that make a noise to alert animals of their

Starting point is 00:32:02 presence. Meanwhile, researchers in Baja, California in Mexico found a 63% bycatch reduction using nets illuminated by green lights. Nice News has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, you can go to readtangle.com and sign up for a membership.

Starting point is 00:32:26 As Isaac mentioned at the top, episode four of The Undecideds is out. This time we talked with our undecided voters about the Trump verdict and their feelings and observations around it. This episode is now on its own dedicated page and there are links in today's episode description for you to go check it out.

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Tangle - New York's traffic congestion pricing plan.

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