Tangle - Pence and Christie jump into the race.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. Can indigenous ways of knowing help kids cope with online bullying? At the University of British Columbia, we believe that they can. Dr. Johanna Sam and her team are researching how both Indigenous

Starting point is 00:00:35 and non-Indigenous youth cope with cyber aggression, working to bridge the diversity gap in child psychology research. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions. To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca forward happens here. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot.

Starting point is 00:01:11 Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at FluCcellvax.ca. From executive producer Isaac Saul welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode,

Starting point is 00:01:58 we're going to be talking about New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, and former Vice President Mike Pence, who both threw their hat in the ring for president this week, as well as the billionaire North Dakota governor and former software executive Doug Burgum. Before we jump in, though, as always, we'll start off with some quick hits. First up, federal prosecutors have informed former President Trump's lawyers that he is a target of their investigation into the handling of classified documents, a formality that typically comes before criminal charges. Number two, officials in Texas and California say they are investigating whether migrants were relocated under false pretenses when they were sent on planes across the country. Number three, House Republicans said they were pausing on their contempt proceedings against former FBI Director Christopher Wray, deciding to skip a vote to hold him in contempt on Thursday.

Starting point is 00:03:00 Number four, wildfire smoke from Canada continues to hamper the Northeast. New York had the world's worst air quality yesterday, while professional sporting events, indoor concerts, and outdoor recess were canceled in cities across the Northeast. Number five, President Biden vetoed a measure passed by Congress that would have overturned his student loan debt relief plan. It's the fifth veto of his presidency. The race to the Republican nomination for president is picking up as a growing number of candidates jump into an already crowded field. Former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie filed his paperwork with the Federal Election Commission today, becoming the latest to launch his presidential bid. In the race for the White House, former Vice President Mike Pence is officially running,

Starting point is 00:03:56 and today he wasted no time taking aim at his former boss, arguing that Donald Trump should never be president again. President Trump also demanded that I choose between him and the Constitution. Now voters will be faced with the same choice. I chose the Constitution, and I always will. Donald Trump is a TV star. Nothing more, nothing less. If we put him back in the White House,

Starting point is 00:04:23 the reruns will be worse than the original show was. This week, former Vice President Mike Pence and former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie each announced their plans to run for president. Both candidates will join a Republican primary race that now includes former President Donald Trump, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, South Carolina Senator Tim Scott, former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley, entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy, and former Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson. Doug Burgum, the billionaire North Dakota governor and former software executive, also announced he was running for president on Wednesday. You can find our previous coverage

Starting point is 00:05:00 of the 2024 race with a link in today's episode description. Today, we are going to focus on Christie and Pence announcing. Pence, who has also served as a House member and governor in Indiana, announced his campaign with a video on Wednesday saying that different times call for different leadership. Notably, Pence did not mention Trump a single time in the video, nor did he display any images of him with the former president. Today, our party and our country need a leader that will appeal, as Abraham Lincoln said, to the better angels of our nature, Pence said in the video. It'd be easy to stay on the sidelines, but that's not how I was raised. That's why today, before God and my family, I'm announcing I'm running for president of the United States. Pence then kicked it off by campaigning in Iowa,

Starting point is 00:05:45 hoping to win the first caucus of the election cycle to gain momentum in the campaign. Pence highlighted cutting taxes, destroying ISIS, nominating conservative Supreme Court justices, and standing up to foes as accomplishments of the Trump administration. But he also criticized Trump, saying he, quote, demanded that I choose between him and the Constitution. He told supporters at the event that Trump had promised to govern as a conservative in 2016, but no longer makes those promises, instead retreating from support for restrictions on abortion and failing to outline plans to address the country's spending issues. Christie, meanwhile, kicked off his campaign at a town hall event in New Hampshire with the most

Starting point is 00:06:24 aggressive attacks on the former president yet from any other GOP candidate. Christie called Trump, quote, a bitter, angry man, described his time in office as a failure, and accused Trump and the Kushners of profiting off of the presidency through investment money acquired from the Saudi crown prince. The grift from this family is breathtaking, Christie said. It's breathtaking. Jared Kushner and Ivanka Kushner walked out of the White House and months later got $2 billion from the Saudis. It is the second time Christie has run for president. In 2016, he failed to get much traction with voters and his record, including several scandals as governor of New Jersey, hampered his candidacy. Eventually, he endorsed Trump, which came at a time when Trump

Starting point is 00:07:05 still needed to win over establishment Republicans. Currently, polling shows Christie is one of the least popular candidates in the Republican field. In order to even get on the debate stage with his fellow Republicans, Christie will need to get 40,000 unique donors. The New York Times, which attended his event, reported that the audience was primarily made up of independent voters, not Republicans, who had a strong dislike for Trump. Today, we're going to break down some reactions to the announcements from the left and the right, and then my take. All right, first up, we'll start with what the right is saying. Many on the right are skeptical of Pence's and Christie's chances. Some argue they are simply running as Trump spoilers.

Starting point is 00:08:01 Others support the candidates, especially Pence, and argue that his qualifications make him a viable option. In town hall, Byron York questioned Mike Pence's ill-starred presidential run. On paper, has there ever been a more qualified candidate for president than Mike Pence? Twelve years in the House of Representatives, four as governor of Indiana, and four as vice president of the United States. No president in at least the last 30 years has come to office with that kind of resume, he said. And yet he is in a nearly impossible situation, both running on and running away from his record from 2017 to 2021. Pence touted his resume without once naming former President

Starting point is 00:08:38 Trump. To call the moment odd would be an understatement, York wrote. Pence would not say the name of the president that everyone knew, and he could only praise the first three years of the administration in which he served and which ended disastrously. How is that a strong platform on which to run for president? In addition to not naming Trump, he faces attacks from him, along with low polling numbers. In any other time, Pence would be a natural presidential candidate. In today's historically weird political world, his candidacy is deeply troubled even as it begins. In PJ Media, Ben Barty asked why a delusional Chris Christie joined the other 5,000 delusional GOP candidates. Chris Christie is joining seemingly thousands of other candidates who are never going to poll above 1%. seemingly thousands of other candidates who are never going to poll above 1%. In his campaign launch, he compared Trump to Voldemort and was a little over the top of his denunciation of

Starting point is 00:09:29 Ivanka Trump. It's pretty clear, based on the rhetoric employed in his campaign announcement speech, that the party leadership and donor class have recruited Christie to be the attack dog targeting Trump, and the corporate state media is here for it, Barty wrote. The real question is, why would anyone vote for Trump Lite when they can have the real thing? The reason Chris Christie is hopeless as a candidate isn't that he's currently polling at nothing. Trump started off that way in 2015. It's possible to build momentum over time, Barty wrote. The reason Christie, Haley, Pence, et al. are destined to fail is that they're repeating boring, outdated GOP talking points from the Mitt

Starting point is 00:10:05 Romney era. That is all over, but they can't let it go because their donors inform their talking points, not any kind of ideological core. National Review's editors, meanwhile, called Pence's decision a leap of faith. Pence is a good man, a solid conservative, and as qualified and prepared for the job as anyone in the field, including the current and former president. He undoubtedly would make a fine president, the editor said. Trump's harshest critics, especially those who place little value on conservative policy, blame Pence for not standing up more publicly against the president's worst impulses during their five-year partnership. This is unfair. There is an important role for an inside man who offers his counsel

Starting point is 00:10:45 only in private and does his best to steer the ship of the state. When Pence had to choose, he made the right call. Pence presents a particularly stark contrast with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis on how to strike the balance between state self-government and the private free speech rights of business, the editor said. The party deserves a serious debate on this very question between two serious men. We would like to believe it is ready for one, but the presence rights of business, the editor said. The party deserves a serious debate on this very question between two serious men. We would like to believe it is ready for one, but the presence of Trump in the field is likely to overshadow them. Fortunately, Pence is uniquely well-situated to confront Trump over his failings. Nobody was more loyal and nobody can match his moral standing.

Starting point is 00:11:20 We hope that he says those things and lets the chips fall where they may. All right, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. Many on the left are critical of both candidates, but hope they will challenge Trump directly. Some argue Pence has no lane to drive in anymore. Others say Christie may have a campaign for good if he decides to take Trump on directly. In Slate, Ben Mathis-Lilley asked what lane Pence thinks he is driving in. Why is he running? Well, because he wants to be president. That much has been clear since he accepted an invitation to be Donald Trump's running mate in 2016, despite his obvious incompatibility with Trump as a matter of both personal comportment and ideology. Among other

Starting point is 00:12:10 things, Pence was a traditional family values guy and a national security hawk vis-a-vis figures like Vladimir Putin. Joining the Trump campaign was pretty obviously a case of careerism over principle. And when you're ambitious and you're the vice president, the next job you're probably looking for is the big one. Pence's record is extremely conservative, even by Republican standards. He criticized George H.W. Bush for signing civil rights legislation and raising taxes. He warned that a Medicare prescription drug benefit supported by the younger Bush ushered in socialized medicine. And his most high profile act as governor of Indiana was signing a bill intended to allow businesses to refuse service to gay customers. ushered in socialized medicine, and his most high-profile act as governor of Indiana was signing a bill intended to allow businesses to refuse service to gay customers.

Starting point is 00:12:50 This is why Trump selected him as vice president. But the idea of someone as fiscally and socially conservative as Pence winning a national election in 2024, or really at any point in modern U.S. history, is far-fetched. In MSNBC, Zeeshan Aleem wrote about why Chris Christie 2024 could be good for America. To call him a long shot would be putting it gently, but Christie still has an opportunity to make a splash in the primaries. He is signaling his plans to be the Trump slayer in the race by focusing his combative energy on bashing former President Trump for his lies about the 2020 election. The strategy is unlikely to give him a path to the nomination, but it's

Starting point is 00:13:30 something that no major politician in the GOP has seriously attempted since Trump's rise. If Christie wounds Trump, his candidacy could be a force for good. In 2016, he made his mark as a brawler, hammering Senator Marco Rubio, the Republican from Florida, over his policy record and repetitive talking points. Many political analysts, and even Rubio himself, believe that Christie's barbs helped crater Rubio's chances in a critical primary and helped clear a wider path for Trump, who won the race. This time, Christie wants to channel that same gladiatorial instinct against Trump.

Starting point is 00:14:04 In media appearances, Christie has advocated for direct confrontation with Trump as the only way to beat him. That prospect is worth watching. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Starting point is 00:14:33 Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older,

Starting point is 00:14:59 and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. In Esquire, Charles P. Pierce wrote about the choir boy Mike Pence and North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum jumping in. It was a red-letter day for the hopefulness of the hopeless, Pierce said. The Republican primary field grew by two candidates, and the race for second place grew even more chaotic, and it probably was the

Starting point is 00:15:29 best news to hit Mar-a-Lago in a year. Trump is getting the big primary field of his dreams. Unfairly, Pence got more attention than Burgum, despite being a lawn jockey at the camp runamuck for four years. Burgum has one thing going for him, which is his own personal fortune. He sold his company to Microsoft for $1.1 billion so he can float his own boat for a while. Pence, meanwhile, worked on his latest material that he and El Caudillo del Mar a Lago did great things for the country until January 6, 2021, when the boss tried to ice Pence in the chamber of the House of Representatives. Pence is going to run his entire campaign in this ungainly straddle of bragging about his time in the White House and distancing himself from Trump. It would take an incredibly deaf politician with

Starting point is 00:16:14 a substantial pre-existing base of popularity to pull that off. Be honest, does that sound like Mike Pence to you? All right, that is it for what the right and the left are saying, which brings us to my take. So there are two threads here that I think are kind of worth pulling at, and they both relate to the front runners, actually, Trump and DeSantis, not really the two men who are just jumping into this race. The bad news for Trump is that Christie and Pence probably represent his biggest threats on stage and in the media. Christie has a lot of weaknesses as a candidate, including his laundry list of scandals and the simple fact he has never been able to appeal to a broad swath of the country. I don't think he has any shot of winning. But he is good on stage, and he is good at being confrontational,

Starting point is 00:17:11 and so far, he's the only person who seems willing to actually throw some real haymakers at Trump. He criticized Ivanka, Jared, and Trump's 2020 obsession in his first day on the trail. Many voters are going to respect the attitude, but even the ones who don't are going to hear the criticisms because the media is going to eat it up. Unlike Christie, Pence isn't much of a brawler, but his strength is he has the receipts. He was in the room. He can speak to Trump's leadership, to his judgment, to his failings. He can also take credit for his victories. That puts him in a unique position. Together, I don't think they'd combine for double-digit polling support once in this whole race, but I do think they could put some dents in Trump's armor on the trail. That is great news

Starting point is 00:17:55 for DeSantis, who is the clear runner-up to Trump right now and needs him to slide to have a chance. On the other hand, the great news for Trump is the simple math of it. Two more candidates just entered the race. Before all this started, all anyone could talk about was how a large GOP field would benefit Trump. Now that candidates are announcing over and over, we seem to be focusing on the bios and the tactics of the candidates and losing sight of just how valuable this is for Trump. It is very, very valuable. As Karen Townsend wrote in Hot Air, the champagne corks are undoubtedly popping in Mar-a-Lago. Why is such a large field good for Trump? Because his biggest threat is DeSantis. And in a primary, DeSantis is very

Starting point is 00:18:37 unlikely to pull off a chunk of Trump loyalists, which means he needs to vacuum up as many of the open GOP voters as possible. Now, he has to compete for those votes with a former vice president, Pence, and someone who has already proven himself to be much better than he is at attacking Trump, Christie. And that's on top of Scott, Haley, Burgum, Ramaswamy, and Hutchinson. For Trump, this is the perfect scenario. It seriously reduces the odds of any splashy stumbles in early stages like Iowa or New Hampshire, and it gives him a path to simply hold on to 40% of the GOP vote and glide to a primary win. If none of these candidates bails before Iowa,

Starting point is 00:19:15 the simple math means this is going to be a net win for the Trump camp. All right, that is it for my take. Before we jump into your questions answered, I want to give you a heads up. We have a fresh new YouTube video that just went live this morning. This is our first ever YouTube interview. I sat down with Michael Dorff and Neil Buchanan to discuss their argument that we should ignore and ultimately do away with debt ceiling law. Dorff and Buchanan both come at this with a left of center view, but I thought they made some very compelling points for progressives and fiscal conservatives to support their position. You can watch the interview by going to our YouTube channel,

Starting point is 00:19:54 which is Tangle News, or by clicking the link in today's episode description, or by finding the link in today's newsletter. the link in today's newsletter. All right, next up is our reader question for today. This one is from Jeff in Long Beach, California. Jeff said, I know you've addressed gerrymandering in the past, but I wonder what you think of this piece in The Hill, and he linked to the piece, suggesting that the solution is the use of proportional multi-member districts. Can you explain how that would work in practice? So first of all, thanks for queuing me up to reference my prior work on gerrymandering. In a subscribers-only post from earlier this year, I talk at length about gerrymandering,

Starting point is 00:20:36 why it exists, why it's a problem on both sides of the aisle, and the different ways to solve it. The short story is that gerrymandering results in our politicians choosing their electors instead of the other way around, and it is now widely detested. Gerrymandering is opposed by about 9 in 10 Americans. We've come up with a lot of proposed solutions, but enacting them has been a lot harder. In my piece, I said that if I had to rank solutions, I would put multi-member districts at the top of my list. Essentially, multi-member districts would just be larger districts with more representatives elected through ranked choice voting, like Alaska used last year. There's a bill in the House right now that defines these as districts having three to five representatives in states that currently have six or more. This would make districts harder

Starting point is 00:21:20 to gerrymander, as second and third choices would often come from minority parties. I do have a major qualm with the proposal you linked to, however. It's not that smaller states wouldn't see change, and it's not that districts would become larger, diluting a representative's relationship with their electorate. Those are real issues, but I can live with them. My problem is that I honestly don't know what the authors are proposing because they never really define what they mean by quote-unquote proportional. There are several proportional systems out there. Do they mean a system like the European Parliament, New Zealand's mixed-member proportional system, or Australia's single transferable vote? Or do they just mean rank-choice multi-member districts like

Starting point is 00:21:59 the ones already proposed? How multi-member districts work in practice is pretty easy to explain. Fairvote.org does a great job. Unfortunately, to explain how proportional multi-member districts would work, you'd have to ask the contributing authors at The Hill about the specifics of their plan. All right, that is it for your questions answered, which brings us to our under the radar section. A prolific cybercrime gang believed to be based in Russia is attempting to blackmail BBC News, British Airways, and the beauty and pharmacy company Boots. The group has apparently gained access to the payroll data of over 100,000 staff members across three companies and several other firms. Now it has contacted the companies demanding

Starting point is 00:22:46 a ransom to keep the data private. The hackers who operate under the name Klopp purportedly found a way to break into the popular business software called MoveIt to access the data. BBC News has the story and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. These are all the average of the share of the primary vote that certain candidates are winning according to Real Clear Politics average of the polls. So this is for the Republican primary. Donald Trump is currently winning 53.2% of the vote. is currently winning 53.2% of the vote. Ron DeSantis currently winning 22.4%. Nikki Haley is currently winning 4.4%. Mike Pence is currently winning 3.8%. Vivek Ramaswamy is currently winning 2.6%. Tim Scott is winning 1.6%. And Chris Christie is winning 1% of the Republican primary vote. That's again, all according to Real Clear Politics average of the Republican primary vote. That's, again, all according to real clear politics average of

Starting point is 00:23:45 the polls. All right, and last but not least, our have a nice day section. Parents of young children with severe peanut allergies may be getting some relief in the future, thanks to promising new research out of Chicago. A global phase three clinical trial found that a year-long immunotherapy through a skin patch safely desensitized toddlers with a peanut allergy, lowering the risk of a severe allergic reaction from accidental exposure. Peanut allergies currently affect 2% of children in the United States, Canada, and other Western countries and frequently persist into adulthood. At the moment, there are no available treatments for children under the age of four. Melanie Machija, the principal investigator of the study at Lurie's Children's Hospital in Chicago,

Starting point is 00:24:30 thinks this new skin patch could change that. Children who originally reacted to a small fraction of a peanut were able to tolerate the equivalent of one to four peanuts after completing the treatment course, she said. This is terrific news for families of kids with peanut allergies. Science Daily has the story and there's a link to it in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's podcast. Before we go, I don't know what you're doing right now. You're washing the dishes, you're driving, maybe you're pretending to work. I want you to pause very quickly and please consider two things. A, going to our website, readtangle.com slash live and

Starting point is 00:25:13 buying some tickets to our live event in Philadelphia on August 3rd. We are trying to sell this place out so we can keep touring the country. We've got some guests that we're going to announce pretty soon. It's going to be a very cool onstage experience of the tangle podcast and newsletter if you can't go to philly and you refuse to buy tickets which is okay or you are going to go to philly and you are going to buy tickets there's also a second awesome thing you could do you could go check out our youtube channel we are on youtube now under the name tangle news we are are posting new videos. I'm posting shorts. We need people who listen to our stuff and love our content to subscribe, to like the videos,

Starting point is 00:25:50 to comment, to engage. We're trying to teach YouTube that we are the real deal and get their algorithm to boost us. This is a great chance for us to grow the brand and get it out there. So buy a ticket to the live event. Go check out YouTube. And as always, if you want to get our Friday edition newsletter, become a Tangle member, readtangle.com slash membership. Just do one of those things for me, please. Either way, we'll be right back here on Monday. Have a great weekend. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited by John Long. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bukova, who's also our social media manager.

Starting point is 00:26:33 Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. For more on Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website. Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season?

Starting point is 00:27:32 Talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca.

Tangle - Pence and Christie jump into the race.

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