Tangle - Political violence hits Minnesota.

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

On Saturday morning, Minnesota House Representative Melissa Hortman (D) and her husband were shot and killed in their home in Brooklyn Park, MN. Earlier that morning, state Senator John Hoffman (D) and his wife were also shot in their home in Champlin, MN, but both survived. Authorities identified a 57-year-old male suspect and, after a two-day manhunt, apprehended him on Monday. Hortman, 55, served as Speaker of the Minnesota House of Representatives from 2019–2025.Ad-free podcasts are here!Many listeners have been asking for an ad-free version of this podcast that they could subscribe to — and we finally launched it. You can go to ReadTangle.com to sign up!You can read today's podcast⁠ ⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠, our “Under the Radar” story ⁠here and today’s “Have a nice day” story ⁠here⁠.Take the survey:  Do you think political violence in the U.S. is getting worse? Let us know.Disagree? That's okay. My opinion is just one of many. Write in and let us know why, and we'll consider publishing your feedback.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our Executive Editor and Founder is Isaac Saul. Our Executive Producer is Jon Lall.This podcast was written by: Isaac Saul & Will Kaback and edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Senior Editor Will Kaback, Hunter Casperson, Kendall White, Bailey Saul, and Audrey Moorehead.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From executive producer, Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. Today is Wednesday, June 18th, and we are covering the shootings that took place in Minnesota over the weekend, the manhunt for the shooter and his arrest, and some of the political commentary about what has happened. A special episode today because we have Will K. Back who is a Minnesota native and a senior editor here at Tangle

who wrote today's my take and is gonna record it here on the pod. Will's also been filling in for John this week on the podcast because John is on vacation. So you're getting a lot of Will today. And I think he had a really thoughtful take that you guys will find interesting. Before I pass it over to Will, I do want to give you a quick heads up on a couple of things. First

of all, we're off tomorrow. It is Juneteenth, which is now a federal holiday. We observe all federal bank holidays here at Tangle. So I'm giving the team off tomorrow. So there won't be a newsletter or podcast coming out, but we'll be back on Friday. And on Friday, we're going to be sharing the capstone piece from our editorial fellow, Hunter Caspersen, which I'm excited to share with you. It's a really fascinating piece about some of the genetic testing that's happening at the embryonic level. Some of the ethical debates about this rising trend, especially here in America. And I learned a lot from reading the piece. So it's quite good, quite engaging.

So keep an eye and an ear out for that. All right, with that, I'm going to send it over to Will for today's main topic and for his take on today's story. And I'll be back for your questions answered. Thanks, Isaac. Moving into today's Quick Hits, before we dive in, a quick clarification. In yesterday's Quick Hits section, we covered President Trump's comments criticizing former President Barack Obama and former Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for ousting Russia from the G8 summit in 2014. However, Trudeau did not become Prime Minister until 2015 and his conservative predecessor, Stephen Harper, led the effort to remove Russia from the group.

We should have noted this inaccuracy in Trump's comments in our summary of the story and we'll make sure to do that going forward. Now on to today's quick hits. We're gonna start out today with a breaking news story that came this morning. The Supreme Court upheld a Tennessee law barring certain forms of gender transition care for minors. The court ruled 6-3 along ideological lines. Next, Israel continued large-scale airstrikes on Iran and President Donald Trump called for Iran's unconditional surrender, commenting that the United States knows where Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei

is hiding, but did not plan to kill him, quote, at least for now. Separately, Iran continued its own attacks on Israel, launching a series of ballistic missiles on Tuesday. Israel reported no deaths or serious injuries from these strikes. Third, federal agents arrested New York City comptroller and mayoral candidate, Brad Lander, a Democrat, at an immigration courthouse as he locked arms

with an unauthorized migrant agents were seeking to arrest. The Department of Homeland Security claimed Lander assaulted and impeded a law enforcement officer, but no charges have been filed. Next, Russia launched a significant drone and missile attack on Ukraine that killed 15 people, including a U.S. citizen, according to Ukrainian officials. Next, Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem was hospitalized on Tuesday after suffering

an allergic reaction. An agency spokesperson said Noome is alert and recovering. And finally, the Defense Department awarded OpenAI a $200 million contract to provide the department with artificial intelligence tools. This is in Minneapolis, Minnesota, the U.S. attorney. Let's listen in. But the details of Belter's crime are even worse. They are truly chilling. It is no exaggeration to say that his crimes are the stuff of nightmares.

Belter stalked his victims like prey. He went to their homes, held them out as a police officer, and shot them in cold blood. Now there's been a lot of information and misinformation out there about Belter's crimes. We have filed a detailed 20-plage complaint, an affidavit, that sets forth what happened in this case. On Saturday morning, Minnesota House Representative Melissa Hortman and her husband were shot and killed in their home in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota. Earlier that morning, State Senator John Hoffman and his wife were also shot in their home in Champlain, Minnesota, but both survived.

Authorities identified a 57-year-old male suspect and after a two-day manhunt apprehended him on Monday. Hortman, who was 55, had served as Speaker of the Minnesota House of Representatives from 2019 to 2025. One note as we get into today's coverage, due to the well-documented contagion effect, Tangle's policy is not to name shooters or suspects in high-profile attacks, so today we'll refer to the suspect in the shooting as just the suspect. The suspect allegedly carried out his first attack at the home of Senator Hoffman, arriving in a black SUV with police lights. He announced himself as police and knocked

loudly on their front door before shining a flashlight into the victim's faces, according to authorities. Hoffman was shot several times, as was his wife, Yvette, who was shielding their daughter from gunfire, according to their nephew. The suspect then traveled to two other state lawmakers' homes. At one house, his presumed targets were not home, while the presence of a police officer may have deterred him from the other. Finally, the suspect drove to Representative Hortman's house, where he also encountered

law enforcement. According to the police report, the shooter and police exchanged gunfire before the suspect forcibly entered the house, where he shot and killed the Hortmans. Both Representative Hortman and her husband, Mark, were shot multiple times. Their children were uninjured, but their family dog was wounded in the shooting and had to be euthanized. Police have still not disclosed a suspected motive, but those familiar with the suspect described him as a conservative with strong pro-life beliefs. The FBI called the shooting targeted due to the notebook the suspect was found with, which included a list of names of prominent pro-choice Democratic lawmakers and abortion providers.

According to court documents, the shooter texted his family hours after the attacks and said that he, quote, went to war. Authorities are unsure if the suspect personally knew any of the lawmakers he targeted, though Governor Mark Dayton had appointed him to a state economic board in 2016 that he served on with Hoffman. Minnesota Governor Tim Walsh released a statement mourning Speaker Hortman's death and condemning the shooting. Quote, today Minnesota lost a great leader and I lost a friend. A formidable public servant and a fixture of the state capitol, Melissa Hortman woke up every day determined to make our state a better place. She served the people of Minnesota with grace, compassion, and tirelessness, well said.

Continuing, we must stand united against all forms of violence, and I call on everyone to join me in that commitment." President Donald Trump also condemned the shootings. Quote, such horrific violence will not be tolerated in the United States of America. God bless the great people of Minnesota, a truly great place," Trump said in a statement, later adding that he would not call Governor Walz and considered doing so a quote, waste of time. Hortman was the top Democrat in the Minnesota state house, which had a slim one vote Republican majority before her assassination.

A candlelight vigil for Melissa and Mark Hortman will be held in front of the state Capitol in St. Paul, Minnesota, on Wednesday evening. Today we'll get into what the right, left, and Minnesota writers are saying about the shooting. Then Tangle Senior Editor and Minnesota native Will Kabeck, that's me, will give his take. We'll be right back after this quick break. First off, let's highlight some areas of agreement. Commentators across the political spectrum condemn the killings and the alleged motivations of the suspect. Most on the right and left also acknowledge the need to address political violence on both sides. Now here's what the right is saying. The right condemns the killings

with some saying the onus is on conservative leaders to loudly denounce this instance of violence. Others argue that the right is being held to a standard the left does not abide by. In City Journal, Charles Thayn-Lehmann said, political violence has no partisan allegiance. The Minnesota murders are part of a broader wave of political violence, fire bombings, riots, and homicides that have swept the country over the past six months. Leaders on the right should condemn them with exactly the same force as they have the many violent incidents perpetrated by left-wing criminals, making it clear that there is no partisan valence to opposing murder," Lehman wrote. It would be pointless to tally up these incidents against recent bouts of left-wing violence and try to judge which side has

more of a problem. Both do. More importantly, leaders on both sides have an interest in speaking out against political violence. The first step in fulfilling that task is to offer no defense of or apology for political violence. President Trump's statement on the incident, which made clear that such horrific violence will not be tolerated in the United States of America, is a model to be followed, Lehman said. It goes from there into action. The suspect's alleged crime occurred in a state that has foolishly abolished capital punishment. Current federal law and the nature of the offense

probably limits the Department of Justice's ability to step in, though the use of a firearm creates a possible avenue for the federal government. Minnesota should certainly pursue the toughest sentence available and consider restoring the death penalty. In PJ Media, Matt Margolis wrote, Democrats have no business lecturing us about violent

rhetoric. The tragic shooting of Minnesota lawmakers has prompted Democrats to suddenly speak out against the dangers of heated political rhetoric. And while it's nice to hear them say the right things for once, their words ring hollow and deeply hypocritical, Margolis said. Immediately after the July 13th assassination attempt, some Democrats, including Joe Biden, said it was time to cool the temperature down. That's lasted what, 15 seconds? Seriously, it took no time at all for Democrats and their media allies to resume their relentless campaign of demonization.

They persisted with inflammatory comparisons to Hitler, continued labeling Trump supporters as fascists, and maintained their apocalyptic warnings about threats to democracy. Democrats aren't interested in dialing back political rhetoric. They're trying to hijack the narrative and use it as yet another weapon against Trump and the GOP, Margolis wrote. The Democratic Party needs to stop pretending they have the moral high ground on political rhetoric.

If they really cared, they'd examine their own party's contribution to the toxic political environment that has made such violence increasingly common. True leadership means taking responsibility for your own rhetoric before demanding others change theirs. Here's what the left is saying. The left also decries the rise in political violence, and many say we must take additional steps to protect lawmakers while toning down partisan rhetoric. Others argue that Trump's style of politics is primarily to blame for the breakdown in social cohesion. The Washington Post editorial board said the Minnesota assassins sought and found soft targets. Spending a fortune on round-the-clock security for most or all America's elected officials

would certainly cut down on targeted political violence, but doing so would also isolate the nation's leaders from those they represent. Social media interactions can't replace in-person conversations with neighbors and direct participation in the community. So, elected officials need to strike a balance, the board wrote. Lawmakers can harden themselves as targets. They should install alarm systems and security cameras at their homes to screen visitors. Minnesota and other states have easy security measures that they can take, too. States can make it harder to find officials' personal

information online. The Minnesota lawmakers attacked over the weekend had listed their home addresses on public websites. States can also better secure their capitals. Minnesota does not require visitors to go through metal detectors or even have their bags checked as they enter the state legislative building, the board said. In the bigger picture, the epidemic of political violence will not end until society considers what's fueling the rise in all these threats and attacks, including dehumanizing rhetoric and echo chambers in the fever swamps of social media. Too often, partisans appear eager to blame their opponents after any heinous attack. In The Nation, Michelle Goodwin wrote, "'The escalating political violence

didn't come from nowhere. In the wake of this latest tragedy involving deadly political violence, undeniable realities must be confronted, including the brazen applications of violence from the highest offices of government, the Supreme Court's dubious obliviousness to its look-the-other-way approach to defending the rule of law, and a longstanding disregard for the safety and lives of those who support

reproductive freedom, Goodwin said. Even as politicians condemn this tragedy in Minnesota, efforts to stem political violence from the White House ring hollow. It isn't only the president's disparaging marks or rhetoric on truth social, where he referred to California's governor as Gavin Newscombe. It's also the weaponization of the Capitol rioters, all of whom he pardoned, white supremacists, and now the National Guard to carry out political agendas. To whatever extent it was true in the past that the United States is a nation devoted to freedom of expression

and public affairs and government press and academia, it is now an open question. In an atmosphere that encourages political retribution and violence, seeks to silence disagreement and opposition at levels that reach the highest ranks of government, we should all be concerned. And now here's what writers in Minnesota are saying. Some writers call on political leaders to make earnest efforts to deescalate extreme rhetoric. Others lauded the actions of law enforcement that stopped

the suspect before additional attacks. In the free press, former representative Dean Phillips, a Democrat from Minnesota, pushed back on those trying to twist this tragedy into a partisan talking point. Over the past decade, as Congress and state legislatures around the country become populated by blowhards who care more about their own airtime than their constituents, Melissa and John remained true to their principles.

These were not flashy people. They did not care about their brands. They cared about doing right. And nothing would have disgusted them more than the baseless, shameful efforts by pundits wishing to make this tragedy a partisan issue and further divide Americans," Phillips wrote. Right now, you will find people who are trying to twist this tragedy into yet another piece of destructive partisanship.

That is the opposite of what Melissa and John worked for so relentlessly. The major political parties and leaders who fertilize these dangerous fields won't acknowledge their roles or accept responsibility of modeling behavior needed to reunite our precious states of America. I'm not talking about thoughts and prayer statements. I'm talking about the hard work of cooperation, problem solving, reprimanding and removing toxic dividers, and acting to befit the offices with which they are entrusted, Phillips said. Melissa and Mark's memory and John and Yvette's fight to live can be honored only if center-left and center-right Americans unite behind the restoration of decency, good character, competency, and common sense as prerequisites for elected office. In the Star Tribune, John Rash praised coordinated, cohesive law enforcement efforts to catch

the suspect. The carnage could have been much worse. The suspect went to four, not two, targeted homes. And according to Brooklyn Park Police Chief Mark Bruhle, the quick thinking of Brooklyn Park Police Sergeant Riley Norden interrupted the assassin's spree, Rash wrote. From then on, the manhunt was on, with federal, state, county, and local law enforcement entities cohesively coordinating their efforts that ended 43 hours after the suspect allegedly invaded the Hoffman's house with the arrest of the man suspected of the crimes that acting U.S. Attorney for Minnesota Joe Thompson rightly described as the stuff of nightmares. The police valor on vivid display in recent days is commendable and yet common, justifying the public's increased confidence in the police as well as citizens' key role in

contributing to community safety. Nothing can undo this tragedy, which is unprecedented in scale and scope here in Minnesota, but it's acted as a timely reminder of the dedication of and the risks taken by those who wear the badge. All right, now on to my take. A strange and I think unfortunate byproduct of working in the news is that covering tragedies can start to feel like just another day on the job. That facade of normalcy, the resignation that these events are just a part of the news cycle, disappears quickly when a tragedy strikes close to home, as it did for me with Saturday's attacks in Minnesota. I grew up in the St. Louis Park, a suburb of Minneapolis just south of Brooklyn Park, where Representative Melissa Hortman and her husband Mark were killed.

My house is close enough to where the shooting occurred that I woke up to texts from my mom on Saturday morning that she could hear sirens as police searched for the gunman. I was also fairly active in Minnesota politics growing up, so I was familiar with Representative Hortman and her work in the state house. To state the obvious, these attacks were horrific, and their effects will likely reverberate in the community for some time. I've been glad to see political leaders on both sides,

outside of Senator Mike Lee, who posted, this is what happens when Marxists don't get their way, but I've seen most political leaders quickly and vocally condemn these acts. I know it's a low bar to meet, but it's important at a time when pervasive partisan fissures catalyze this exact kind of violence. From my conversations with people back home, I know Minnesotans are also feeling an immense amount of gratitude toward law enforcement for their immediate response, which undoubtedly

prevented the shooter from carrying out attacks on additional legislators. The officer's brave action, exchanging fire with the suspect at Hortman's home and forcing him to flee on foot, prevented this story about the rising tide of political violence from being even deadlier and more dire. Now, political violence is not unique or new to the United States, but it is getting worse. In 2024, the United States Capitol police investigated 9,474 concerning statements and direct threats against lawmakers up from 8,008 in 2023 and significantly up from 3,939 in 2017. In October, 2024, Reuters published an investigative report that found that since the

January 6th riots, the country has experienced, quote, the biggest and most sustained increase in U.S. political violence since the 1970s. And a 2024 review from the Combatting Terrorism Center at West Point found, quote, the number of federal prosecutions for threats to public officials is on pace to hit new record highs and may produce significant consequences for the U.S. democratic system of governance, end quote. Now, here's a partial list of political attacks in just the last 10 years or so. There's the shootings of Representative Steve Scalise and Gabby Giffords, the January 6th Capitol riots, the attempted murder of then Scalise and Gabby Giffords, the January 6th Capitol riots, the attempted murder of then mayoral candidate Craig Greenberg in Louisville, the

hammer attack on Representative Nancy Pelosi's husband, the attempted assassination of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, a series of assassination attempts against Democratic elected officials in New Mexico, an arson attack at the New Mexico Republican headquarters, a targeted shooting at a Democratic National Committee office in Arizona, two assassination attempts on President Donald Trump, and the arson attack at Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro's residence. And these are just the attacks against high profile political figures. That same time period has also

brought a rise in issue-driven violence, like the 2018 mass shooting at the Tree of Life Synagogue, the 2022 mass shooting in Buffalo, the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson, the New Year's Day truck attack in New Orleans, the targeted attacks on Tesla dealerships, the recent attack in Boulder, and the recent murder of two Israeli embassy staffers, just to name a few. And all of these were motivated in part by an ideological agenda. To be honest with you though, I don't think anyone really needs a slew of studies or headlines to be convinced that we have a political violence problem in America.

The more important question to me is what can we do about it? In my view, no solution is possible unless we see this violence as a collective crisis rather than a problem confined to one side or the other. As soon as the name of the suspected Minnesota shooter was released, partisan actors on social media began selectively sharing information to paint him as either far left or far right. And as we wrote yesterday, the available evidence does point to him being a religious conservative who solely targeted Democrats, potentially motivated by anti-abortion views.

But framing these events writ large as a piece in a narrative about which side is more violent or more of a threat doesn't put all of us against the problem. It pits us against them. As the examples that I just read through show, political violence genuinely is coming from both sides. So only focusing on one extreme ideology as the source of the violence won't get us any closer to a solution.

Yes, each side should reflect on how their rhetoric and actions contribute to this violence. For instance, the deification of Luigi Mangione on the left, the mocking of Paul Pelosi on the right, and the rising tide of antisemitism on both sides, and they should seek to tamp down those elements. However, addressing the root causes of this violence requires a shared recognition that both sides have a problem

and collective action is the only way forward. We can look to Minnesota as a model. As some stories about the attacks have noted, the state has historically had a strong culture of civility in politics. You could call it Minnesota nice, perhaps. George Floyd's death in 2020 strained that culture, and last weekend's shootings will strain it further. But so far, local lawmakers have led by example in their response.

On Tuesday, State Representative Harry Niska, the House GOP floor leader and a staunch conservative, a very outspoken conservative, calmly but firmly called out Senator Mike Lee's now deleted post about the shooting. And Niska wrote, quote, I suggest you take just a pause and have a little bit of empathy for the many people touched by this horrible crime committed in Minnesota on Saturday. Senator Lee's post was classless, baseless and counterproductive, end quote. Multiple other state Republican lawmakers joined Niska and their Democratic colleagues in using their platforms to refute conspiracy theories and harmful comments about the shooting. And again, pushing back on this kind of rhetoric may feel like a low bar to clear, and it is, but it takes the air out of attempts by bad actors to turn these

incidents into a wedge issue. It's a first step, one that reaffirms a set of shared values and it signals to political opposition that there is common ground on which to work. Unfortunately, I don't think a single incident, as horrifying as the attacks in Minnesota were, is powerful enough to prompt the level of introspection needed to counteract the forces driving this rise in political violence. But considering how these events have piled on top of each other with increasing frequency in recent years, we do seem to be nearing a hinge point that will determine whether or not we have the will to step back

from the brink. If anything positive is to come out of last weekend's attacks, I hope it is that it helps us see the urgency of doing just that. Alright, that is it for my take. I will pass it back to Isaac for today's reader question and then hop back to finish off today's edition. We'll be right back after this quick break. All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying and for Will's take today. Thank you, Will, again, for stepping up, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Alicia in West Virginia.

I'm going to tackle it. Alicia said, I'm curious what the Tangle team thinks of what happened to Senator Alex Padilla, the Democrat from California, for trying to ask a question at Kristi Noem's press conference. So, last Thursday, Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem held a press conference discussing her department's recent immigration actions in Los Angeles. After attending a briefing nearby, Senator Alex Padilla, the Democrat from California, arrived at the press conference and confronted Noem about the recent DHS raids that targeted migrants without criminal records.

Video of the conference shows Padilla approaching Noam while she was speaking from a door near the side of the room. Padilla identifies himself, saying, I am Senator Alex Padilla. I have questions for the secretary before he's restrained by Secret Service and FBI agents. Law enforcement then forcibly removed him from the room, held him face down on the ground and handcuffed him before briefly detaining and later releasing him. DHS said the agents mistook him for an attacker because he was approaching the podium

where Noam was speaking and didn't follow commands, adding that they did not identify him as a senator because he was not wearing a congressional pin. From our perspective, it definitely looks like agents overreacted to Padilla. No US senator should be treated that way for asking questions. However, Padilla isn't totally blameless here either, and we understand why Secret Service and FBI agents acted the way they do.

Reacting in these situations happens quickly. Yes, Padilla identified himself, but only after law enforcement intercepted him and he approached the podium mid-speech. We can understand why the agents would be overreactive in that situation, especially considering the climate of political violence that we find ourselves in. We also understand why they wouldn't pause what they were doing to confirm whether or not

he was a Senator before they felt they had this situation under control. Most importantly, we are glad that Nolan and Padilla had a productive individual conversation following the incident. To oversimplify, the climate of political violence seems to be the backdrop that instigated Padilla's forcible detainment. And that detainment does not seem to be part of the trend of political violence or suppression of people's speech rights that we've seen in certain instances. All right, with that, I'm going to send it back to Will for the rest of today's newsletter and I'll see you guys on Friday.

Have a good one. Peace. Thanks, Isaac. All right, here is today's Under the Radar story. 40 states in the US are expected to experience extreme levels of humidity over the next two weeks. Above average ocean temperatures and southerly winds are driving this high humidity, which is forecasted to persist throughout the summer. The weather will be especially concentrated in central and eastern states, with humidity and temperatures beginning to rise on Thursday. 170 million people could experience temperatures above 90 degrees during this

time. The Washington Post has this story as well as a city by city breakdown of the forecast and you can find the link to that in today's show notes. Now on to some numbers about today's main story. The number of incidents of political violence in the United States between January 6, 2021 and August 2023 is 213, according to a 2023 Reuters report. Of those violent incidents, the number that were individual acts of violence was 76. And of those violent incidents, the number that were between dueling groups at public demonstrations and events was 58. The approximate number of threats and harassment incidents against local officials in 2025 through April is 170 according to a report from

Princeton's Bridging Divides Initiative. The percentage of threats and harassment incidents against local officials in April that were education related was 17% and the percentage of threats and harassment incidents against local officials in April that were local or community specific was 33%. The number of concerning statements and direct threats against members of Congress, including their families and staff, investigated by the US Capitol Police in 2024

was 9,474. And the number of concerning statements and direct threats against members of Congress investigated in 2017 was 3,939. And finally, here is our have a nice day story. After losing four friends to cardiac arrest, David Sullivan has spent the past few years trying to improve cardiac arrest survival rates

by installing life-saving equipment in remote places. One stop for Sullivan was Mount Everest, where he installed a defibrillator at 22,000 feet. Three weeks after returning home, Sullivan learned that it had already saved a woman's life. Quote, it was the proudest moment of my life when I learned that happened, Sullivan said, adding, it is incredible that something so simple can save someone's

life. Fox News has the story and the link is in our show notes. All right, that is it for today's edition. We will be off tomorrow as a reminder in observation of Juneteenth, but we'll be back on Friday with our Friday edition. We're very excited to share that one with you. Have a great day tomorrow. If you have off, hope you enjoy the holiday. Either way, we'll talk to you soon.

Have a great day. Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Lull. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by managing editor Ari Weitzman with senior editor Will K. Back and associate editors Hunter Tasperson, Audrey Morehead, Bailey Saul, Lindsay Knuth, and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website at

retangle.com.