Tangle - PREMIERE EPISODE: The Undecideds - Episode 1 - Meet Our Voters

Episode Date: March 17, 2024

On our premiere episode, we will meet our five undecided voters. Handpicked by the team at Tangle, these voters — from Florida, Ohio, California, Arizona and Pennsylvania — will answer questions about their upbringing, their beliefs, the biggest stories from the campaign trail, what stories are resonating, who they are voting for and why — all up to and then through election day. Each episode we’ll focus on a different storyline from the race, and hear how these undecided voters are thinking about it. We are now 238 days out from the election.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. The Undecideds is a Tangle Media ProductionThis episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon LallInterviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokowa, Will Kaback, Jon Lall, and Ari Weitzman.Music was composed and produced by Jon Lall--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly.

Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases. What can you do this flu season? Talk to

your pharmacist or doctor about getting a flu shot. Consider FluCellVax Quad and help protect yourself from the flu. It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages six months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. From Tangle Media and founder, Isaac Saul. And executive producer, John Long. And executive producer, John Law. This is The Undecideds.

I'm Isaac Saul, and welcome to the premiere episode of The Undecideds. In September, a Wall Street Journal poll suggested roughly one in four U.S. voters were unsure who they would cast a ballot for in the 2024 presidential race. The New York Times recently reported that about 19% of voters are heading into the 2024 election as quote-unquote double haters. That is, voters who say they dislike both President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump. Polls consistently show a majority of Americans do not want a 2020 rematch, yet that is exactly what we are getting. These voters, the undecideds, are going to be the ones who ultimately swing the election. So far in 2024, the polls consistently show the race in a dead heap or with Biden trailing. In 2020, the undecided voters broke by about a 3-1 margin for President

Biden and handed him victories in the key swing states needed to win the White House. This year, some will vote for Biden again. Some will vote for Trump. Some will vote third party or not vote at all. There are millions of these voters across the country. But this year, we've decided to follow five. The Tangle team handpicked these voters from Florida, Ohio, California, Arizona, and Pennsylvania, all with different backgrounds, views, and stories. From now until November, we're going to interview these undecided voters

and follow them along in their journey. We're going to ask them questions about their upbringing, their beliefs, the biggest stories from the campaign trail, what stories are resonating, who they are voting for, and why, all up to, and then then through Election Day. Each episode will focus on a different storyline from the race and hear about how these undecided voters are thinking about it. The election is now 233 days away. Today, in our first episode ever of The Undecideds, we'd like to introduce you to those voters as we take the plunge into the 2024 election.

Our podcast producer, John Law, spoke with Diana, a 67-year-old retired substitute teacher who resides in Florida. A registered Republican for years, she now feels closer to an independent and describes herself as fiscally conservative but socially liberal, something many of you have probably heard an independent voter say before. She's adamant about having empathy for people's individual lives and how they inform their choices. Listen to Diana as she talks about how even though she does not like Donald Trump, the decision ahead of her is not so clear. Thank you, Diana, for joining us today. You're welcome. It's my pleasure.

So where are you speaking to us from today and how long have you lived there? I'm speaking to you from Florida and I've lived here for four years. I'm originally from Maryland. We moved here when we retired. What were you doing in your career before your retirement? Well, before we retired, I was a substitute teacher in high school. But I have a Bachelor of Science degree in dental hygiene. And I originally started out as a dental hygienist, but I didn't like that. And then I was home with my kids for a while. And I had always wanted to be a teacher. And then when the oldest one was in high school, then I started working as a substitute. And I just loved it. So I did that until we retired. If you don't mind, I'm going to ask a little bit about just your upbringing. Okay.

Just generally how your family may have influenced your political views and values. Well, my parents were pretty, I thought when I was little, at one point, one was a Democrat and one was a Republican. I can't remember which one, but I know as they aged, they were definitely both Republicans. And my mother got to the point, it was so bad in her 90s, she basically said, and I can say this, because, well, anyway, she said, anybody that is voting, anybody that's a Democrat is an idiot. So, which I think is a little strong. And I don't agree with it all. But anyway, so that that's how far she had gone the other way. But politically, my parents were pretty, you know, didn't do a whole lot to influence,

which I think probably was good. I started out when I was 18 and had to register for vote. To vote, I registered as a Democrat, because at the time in the primaries, you always had a whole lot of Democratic candidates, but very few Republican candidates. So I figured I'd have more of a chance to vote. But then as I got older, it seemed that pretty much in every election, you know, once you got to the general election, I was usually voting for Republican candidates. And I eventually switched my party affiliation to Republican. But I would say I'm really more of an independent, very much in the middle I try to really look at both sides of an issue I would say I'm more fiscally conservative but socially

more on the liberal side and you know I really do feel that everybody has a right to think what they feel and most people feel what they feel because of their life experience, which, you know, everybody's life experience is valid. So what would you say your relationship to politics is now? Do you consider yourself pretty politically engaged? I try to stay abreast with what's going on. You know, I try to research the candidates. I pay attention to what's going on. You know, I try to research the candidates. I pay attention to what's going on with them. But I also try not to get too much in the weeds

because I just don't think it's good for you. And I think everything, every issue, everything is very complicated. I don't think you can, you know, nothing is really black or white. I think you can't just look at the facts. I mean, you have to just kind of, this might not make sense, but you kind of have to go with your gut, too, with what it says to a certain degree. And you're never going to find somebody that is 100% with who you want. So you kind of have to pick and choose. So let's go back to the previous presidential elections. Can you tell us who you voted for in 2008 and 2012? And if you can also just maybe why

you voted the way you did at those times? Okay, 2008, I voted for McCain. And then 2012 was Obama again, and I voted for Romney then. And so that was 2012. 2016, I voted for Trump, but it was a very... And the other two, Romney and McCain, that was pretty easy. But when it came down to Trump versus Clinton, that was really, really difficult. And I kept going back and forth and back and forth. And I did eventually vote for Trump. I wasn't happy with what I did, but I couldn't swallow Clinton. I just couldn't do it. it. And I rationalized Trump by saying that, you know, yes, I did think he was morally not what I would consider a moral and ethical human being that I would want for president. But

I looked at it that if I had cancer, and I had a choice between two doctors, one was a really good guy, and he had a 60% success rate, and the other guy was not a great guy, but he had a 95% success rate, I'm going to go with the 95% guy. And that was my rationalization for him. Were there any particular things that stood out to you as, were they more policy issues, or were they more personality issues? Well, I would have to say with both of them, it was personality. Well, I guess personality and Clinton more personality. I never liked her from the very beginning when she wanted to work on health care and there was a lot of pushback that she was the first lady and she shouldn't be doing that. I mean, on the one hand, I felt, well, you know, good for her.

But I didn't like her comment about, well, what am I supposed to do, stay home and bake cookies? Because that's what I did. I was a stay-at-home mom. And I really felt that she was putting down stay-at-home mothers. And I did not like that. And then with the whole Monica Lewinsky thing, I think the fact that she stood by him after what he did.

Again, she's saying she's for women's rights and all this. And she I just feel like by doing that, she was basically she was just looking out for her own interest. She knew that she'd be able to get further staying with him than she would if she did not stay with him. And I didn't really care for her policies that much. Trump seemed like, you know, he was a good businessman. He was, you know, a successful businessman. He didn't put up with a lot of stuff. And I thought, well, you know, this is what we need. We need somebody different, somebody that hasn't been in politics. And I knew if she came along, Bill was going to be coming along with her. And I just couldn't stomach it. But then every time I'd be like, oh, like after the, oh, what is it?

The Access Hollywood thing. It was like, oh, I just don't know that I can do this. I think I'm going to have to vote for Hillary. But then that, it was like, nope, can't do it. So I'm not proud of it, but that's what I did. It was very difficult. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think a lot of people also have felt very similarly. And so going into 2020, obviously, Joe Biden runs. Who did you vote for then? And if anything had changed, what had changed for you in your decision making? Okay, so in 2020, I voted for Biden. You know, I thought Trump was doing okay. And actually, I think he really did some good things.

He just needed to keep his mouth shut. And if he had kept his mouth shut, I think things would have been okay. The pandemic, I, you know, I think if he had acknowledged it sooner, maybe we wouldn't have had to go through everything we went through. But I think that once, you know, everything he did with, you know, the PPP, and I think he had a lot to do with really cutting a lot of the red tape so that we could get the vaccine. You know, I thought that was all that was all pretty good. But then, you know, when he refused to wear a mask, and then all the stuff about, I don't know, what was it drinking bleach and all this other stuff, then it was like, it was like, okay, enough of this. And then just everything with the election and the election fraud and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It's like, I can't do this. He's got to go. It's just been, you know, four years of turmoil. And, you know, every time he does something good, he just shoots himself in the foot. And so I voted for Biden. And that was not a hard decision. It was a pretty easy decision. So going into 2024, do you have a particular person of the candidates that are running right now that you feel strongly about? Are you still undecided?

Are there any candidates besides Trump oriden that you're currently supporting or considering supporting well i would have to say right now i am it kind of changes day to day when you and i first talked um i i just about had it with biden and just especially just his age and all the issues and it was and i was thinking well if i had to vote today it would be trump well now with everything a lot of these things trump is saying i, it would be Trump. Well, now with everything, a lot of these things Trump is saying, I think it would be Biden. But then again, with, you know, some of the age issues with Biden now and the problems that he's having, I just don't know what to do. I mean, I can tell you if Nikki Haley makes it through all this, that's who I'll be voting for. If it comes down to Trump versus Biden, I don't know what I'll do.

So right now, if I had to choose, it would be Nikki Haley. If Nikki Haley ends up bowing out, I don't know what I'm going to do. And I am concerned with both of them with their age. Diana, thank you so much for talking with us today. And we'll check back in with you in about a month. You're welcome. Thank you so much for talking with us today. And we'll check back in with you in about a month. You're welcome. Thank you. John also spoke with Zahid, a 40-year-old tax accountant from California.

After being raised in Dubai, Zahid came to the United States in 2002 to attend college. And in 2011, he became a U.S. citizen. Since his first time voting in 2012, he's consistently voted Democrat down the ballot, but lately, he says, he's felt disillusioned with the Democratic Party, particularly in his home state of California, and he's beginning to feel like the United States is maybe not the country it once was. So thank you, first of all, for having me in this series. My name is Zahid. I reside in Sacramento, California, and I am 40 years old. And if you don't mind telling us, what would you say is your main focus in life and your career and how you kind of spend your time these days?

So I'll just give a little bit of background about myself so that it gives you a little bit main focus in life and your career and how you kind of spend your time these days? So I'll just give a little bit of background about myself so that gives you a little bit more color as to what my life journey has been so far. I am originally from Pakistan, that's where I was born, but I never lived in Pakistan so I grew up in Dubai. So I spent 18 years in Dubai before coming to the US, more specifically California, in 2002. I came to the US, of course, to go to college. So I did my undergrad at San Francisco State University. I studied accounting. Of course, since graduation, I've been working in the accounting industry.

I became a US citizen in 2011. And since then, I, of course, have been more and more involved in terms of learning the main issues, the main issues that I have, the main issues that I don't agree with, and the things that are just part of my day-to-day life, right? You know, everything from healthcare, education, immigration, crime, all these little issues that come up every now and then, which is something that I am more specifically interested in. And that's where I look at, you know, politicians, almost everyone who is running from city council to the president, as to what they think about those ideas. So that's what's important to me.

those ideas. So that's what's important to me. And how would you say currently you would identify politically? Are you a Republican, Democrat, Independent? So I am a registered Democrat. I voted for Obama first. That was the first time I became citizens after 2011. was the first time I became citizens after 2011. And then I voted for Biden. And all, you know, in California elections, of course, I have voted Democrat also. So yeah, so I am a registered Democrat. But over the last, I would say, two years, two years, two and a half years, or maybe since Biden was elected, things have changed. Things have changed. And I feel like there is, there's issue, there are some issues that are being neglected because there's a vocal minority that has a louder say in the party. And whereas the broader base is still, you know, one that's been neglected. And that's where I feel like, okay, that I no longer relate to it the way I used to relate to, you know, back, you know, maybe five years ago, 10 years ago. 2002. What would you say your political engagement was? And if you could maybe talk a little bit

about coming to the States and, you know, between maybe let's say 2002 and 2012 when you first voted, how being in the United States had kind of shaped and evolved your politics. Sure. So, I mean, of course, I grew up in a household that was a lot more conservative. But personally, I would not say I am a conservative in terms of like a lot of social issues, a lot of social things. But at the same time, I had ideas that were quite different from, you know, my family and my friends growing up in Dubai. And so when I came to the US, I did not have a problem understanding or looking at certain issues that were taboo subjects back home.

So that's where I was like, I know I always believed certain things. People have a right to do what they want to do and they should not be you know told by the government do a certain thing a certain way for me it was important that because i always heard in pakistan especially law and order is a big issue so when i came to the us i saw that law and order here is you know why it's considered so much you know more why is it a developed country in the sense that you know there's that there's a line for everything?

You need to go to a DMV, you need to get your driver's license, and anyone can go to a DMV. Anyone can get a driver's license if they have the proper documentation. Whereas the country I come from, that's not the case. And so for me, it was important to see that contrast. And of course, I, at the same time, growing up in Dubai, knew that same thing happens in Dubai where there's law and order, there is a certain way people do things, there are rules and regulations, there are rights. that, you know, as a student here, I had a student life, so I was not as involved in politics as, you know, I was in college. So it didn't really care much about those things until, you know, I went through the immigration process and, you know, became a U.S. citizen. That's when I was like, okay, you know, I, you know, have a house and I pay taxes. And in my property tax bill, it says a certain amount of my money goes to

schools and I don't have any kids. So I'm paying these taxes, but I don't have any kids. But then again, I know that one day I will have kids and my kids will go to school. So that's how, you know, you fund schools. So those are the kinds of things like I started to notice once, you know, I bought a house and I started having kids and all that stuff. Let's talk a little bit about 2012 comes up. It's your first vote. You said you voted for Obama. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Yeah, I mean, at that time, I mean, it was just like a default thing. Like I wouldn't say like I was like, oh, oh you know i'm going to vote for him because i know xyz but to be very honest i think it was mitch romney uh that he was against and i uh was like for really after a really long time i was like it's a republican candidate that makes sense right a republican candidate that is not your your typical republican candidate and i kind of miss him now of course you know you know now it's like you know i wish he would you know run again or he would be nominated because that would definitely put a lot of things in perspective for me because i think uh this is

a natural thing i think i've heard just a lot of people this, that as you get older, you get more and more Republican. So as I've gotten older, I have leaned a lot more towards a lot of things that make sense now. Like, you know, fiscal deficits, that's a problem. Initially, for me, it was like, well, you're funding growth. But then you realize, like, you know, there has to be a stop. Like, you know, you just can't keep on spending like you cannot keep on talking about increasing spending with social security defense and all that stuff while at the same time talking about reducing taxes and like you know other things so yeah first time uh 2012 voted for obama sort of a

default thing because you know i'd seen what he had done in the past uh and it didn't seem like you know there's something wrong with uh what he was doing and uh also uh one thing i would like to mention here is like i learned very early on that california is a democratic uh you know leaning state so even if i had voted for anyone else uh you know, the electoral college would just go to Obama. So it's like, you know, why waste your vote on something that is not going to make any sense in the larger scheme of things? So it's like, it was a default Obama. Let me ask you, 2016, Clinton and Trump. So if you could tell me who you voted for then, and what led you to that decision? Yeah, once again, same thing. It was I voted for Clinton. And again, at the same time, I was always certain that it will be a very difficult task for a woman to become a U.S. president.

I don't know why I've always had that feeling. It will be a very difficult or uphill battle for a woman to become a U.S. president. I can't logically explain it. That's how I've always felt. But at the same time, it terrified me that someone with ideas like the ones that Trump has would become the president. We get to 2020. Biden runs in 2020. You had mentioned earlier that you voted for him.

Can you tell me a little bit about why you voted for him? And if there were any things in particular that drove you to that vote? It seems like you pretty much usually vote Democrat, but were there any hesitancies or was it a pretty easy vote? I wouldn't say it was an easy vote. So let me start by saying this, that, you know, like I said, I was terrified that someone like Trump, someone a moral moral compass like trump would become the president but then at the end of the day i think um he lost me when it when it came to covid response that's where i was like okay this is just this is ridiculous because um it's i mean i don't blame him for under downplaying it initially because i think anyone would have downplayed it, not as much as he did, but anyone would have initially said to keep calm, you know, make sure that people don't panic, would have said certain things.

then, you know, anytime, you know, Dr. Fauci would say something and people would just have opinions on it. And those opinions would be a lot more, you know, given a lot more weight than what the science was saying. So I think that confusion is something that I think someone else, even if it was a Republican president, would have handled it a lot more diplomatically. But I think he, because he is who he is, he was not able to, you know, handle it the way, you know, you're supposed to. And at the same time, it's like, you're talking about like a pandemic, and then you're playing with people's lives. And then you just, you know, you're not following science at the time. And whatever we find out, of course, you know, five years from now, 10 years from now, about how the response was, how the history looks at it,

well, that's a different thing. Because in hindsight, you know, five years from now, 10 years from now, about how the response was, how the history looks at it. Well, that's a different thing because in hindsight, you know, everything is 2020. But at the time, people or scientists or the doctors were operating on the information they had at the time. And I think the response was the way they mobilized and did everything. There was a vaccine like in less than a year. I think that's just incredible, right? That, I think think was something that

I was like, okay, no, something is not right here because even though everything else would have been okay, and I think a lot of things were okay before COVID and things were moving along fine, that was something where he lost me. And I think that's pretty much the only reason I was like, okay, well, this time I'm of course going to go for Biden. Now we're moving into 2024. Are you currently undecided in where you stand? Yes, I am undecided. Not because, you know, right now it just becomes, or it has become now, the fight has become like choosing lesser of two evils and that to me is not a you know good position or good place to be in but at the same time a lot of what the mistakes

that were made early on by with Biden and the way he has been dealing with a lot of things social issues as well as like international, like foreign issues. I think that's where I am extremely unhappy with how things are, you know, he's dealing with things at the same time, you know, I do feel that, you know, there's no better choice, right? Like it's either going to be him, Biden or Trump, it's there's no one else that could even like, you know, get to a point where they would win so for me yeah i'm still undecided i just to make a point maybe i will end up voting in a certain way but at this time yeah i'm still undecided assuming right now that you know the race is not locked up it's not

decided it's let's just say it's not definitely Biden. It's not definitely Trump. Are there any candidates that do interest you or anybody who, you know, kind of excites you, let's just say, even for a future candidacy? Oh, okay. So this is going to sound crazy, but I mean, if I could have Gavin Newsom, California, uh, run for president with like Nikki Haley as the vice president, or even the other way around, like a vice president, uh, Newsom and Nikki Haley as a president. Oh, that, that, I think that would just be amazing. That would be amazing ticket, but I know that's not happening. So, so let's, let's get back to reality. So what's happening right now? Definitely. I would definitely consider uh nikki haley uh to

be uh you know worthy of my vote uh don't agree with her almost you know i don't agree with everything she stands for but then again um there has been a lot of issues with how one thing that's important to me i would like to say, is having leadership. And I feel like that's been missing for the past two or three years. And maybe this is a different style of leadership that Biden has, but it's definitely not the one that America needs right now. And I think that's where Nikki Haley, I think, would be much better. That's where Nikki Haley, I think, would be much better. And I think she also has very much similar views as typical Republican conservative values. Some of them I agree with, some of them I don't.

But still, she would be a better candidate to go against Biden than Trump. So, Hid, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. And we were going to check in with you in about a month. Sure. Sounds good. Thank you. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Next up, you're going to hear from Claire, who spoke to our managing editor, Ari Weitzman. Claire is a 20-year-old college student from Ohio. Her first time voting was in the 2022 midterms, and this will be her first presidential election.

A self-described classical liberal, Claire aims to be cognizant of her biases and open to the best ideas, regardless of the party. She spoke to Ari about her disappointment in both Trump and Biden, her biggest concerns heading into this election, and her hope for an underdog candidate to rise up. How are you, Claire? I'm good. How are you? Oh, I'm great. You're from Columbus, Ohio. Is that right? Yeah, I'm originally from Dayton, but I'm in Columbus finishing up school. Can you tell us a little bit about your upbringing in Dayton, what it was like there, and why you moved to Columbus? Sure. So Dayton is a pretty big city, and I grew up in the suburb areas, which is really interesting because you could drive five minutes into the city, very, very Democrat, drive five minutes in the other direction,

and you're in Trump country. And where I specifically lived, it was about half and half. It was pretty equal. So that's where I grew up. I came to Columbus just because when I was looking for the right school, I didn't want to be too far from home. And I just kind of ended up at Capital University where I am now. Capital. Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about Capital, what it's like there? where I am now. Capital. Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about Capital, what it's like there? Sure. Capital, it is a very small school. It has about 3,000 students. As most colleges are nowadays, it's quite liberal leaning, but I would also say it's pretty quiet. There are a lot of the massive protests that you hear about

at Ivy League level schools. So I've definitely experienced the liberal bias from my professors that a lot of people talk about. But I would say it's not as extreme as you might think if you're just consuming mainstream news. So let's dig into it a little bit now. The big question is why you're undecided. Before we get to that, though, I think it would be interesting to know a little bit about your voting history and also maybe a little bit about how your parents voted, if that impacted you in any way. Sure. So I grew up in a conservative household, and then as I started to develop my own beliefs, I became pretty liberal in middle school and high school. And then by the end of high school, starting college, I kind of came back towards the center. And I would say now

I'm pretty classically liberal, like philosophically. And I do hold strong opinions on a lot of certain things. I'm not necessarily moderate, but those opinions don't always fall on the left or the right. And my first time voting was in the midterms because that was when I had just turned 18. And I basically split my ticket. I looked into specific people and I was looking at what they're saying and who sounded more reasonable to me. There are certain things that I dislike about Democrats to the left and certain things I dislike about Republicans to the right that I was like looking for those things. Like if a Republican said, I think we should be more fiscally conservative and worry about the debt.

I was like, that sounds reasonable to me. If they're talking about book bans, then I'm not going to vote for them. them. Whereas on the left, if they're talking with a lot of inclinations toward DEI and social justice, I think that oftentimes runs into limiting freedoms. But if they're saying, I want people to have affordable housing and healthcare, I'm like, that sounds reasonable to me. So I think I'm kind of coming from a place of trying to look at and evaluate individuals rather than having any allegiances to specific parties. And that's definitely a business for me is looking at specific values for people. So to clarify, the 2022 election was your first election that you're old enough to participate in.

So 2024 will be your first presidential election coming up. I want to just get a quick, immediate gut check. Where do you think you're leaning right now? If you said that you're leaning one way or the other, where do you think you're leaning and why? I think as it stands right now, if I had to vote tomorrow, I might vote like Nikki Haley, because I just don't know if I can stomach either Trump or Biden, even though that's probably what we will end up with in the end. So I think that might change depending on what happens in the next few weeks, assuming that she may drop out. But personally, I actually, I really like Dean Phillips on the Democrat side, but he just doesn't have a lot of name recognition whatsoever, where at least Haley is getting headlines. So that's kind of my gut feeling right now.

As you're undecided coming into 2024, what are the issues that are most important to you that you think are going to tip your decision one way or the other come November? decision one way or the other come November? The looming issue in my mind right now is having to do with foreign policy because, you know, looking at the war in Gaza, the war in Ukraine, and a potential move on Taiwan in the next four years. Also, we've been talking about a potential war with Iran. And those things are all looming very large. I don't want to fear longer and be like, we're going to get into World War III. but simultaneously, I think it'd be very naive to pretend that none of these wars might touch us. So as I'm looking into 2024, I'm thinking if an even larger war would break out or if America was really under threat, who do I want to be the figurehead dealing with our allies and our adversaries during that time? So let's get your impression first of the incumbent, President Joe Biden. As we're coming into 2024, what are things that you like about him? What are things that you're nervous about? And maybe what are some things that he might be able to do to tip your opinion one way or the other um i think some of the things that i like about him and there i feel like with every president

i can point out random one-off policies that i'm like uh is encouraging to me or i agree with so i remember at the beginning of his presidency he acknowledged the armenian genocide which people probably don't remember. But I remember because I was like, that's important because it shows you about backbone. A lot of people didn't acknowledge it because they were worried how it might affect our relationships abroad with Turkey. And to acknowledge, regardless of what other countries, how they might react to that, and to say that this pain was real i think was a strong starting point for me and some of the things that i'm more skeptical of or worried about are that inflation

hasn't really come back down under his presidency so um that kind of hurts and then on the foreign policy front i think um he told net niyamu back in de, I want the ground war in Gaza to be over by the end of the year. And never left. No one takes Joe Biden seriously because they see how he acts after a speech. There's a lot of talk about mental decline. And can he remember things? And so I think. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning.

Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown

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Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. I don't think any of our allies or adversaries really take him seriously as a threat. And they're kind of like, what are you going to do to me um what are the consequences if we disagree with america at this point and so far it doesn't seem like the consequences have been very big um similarly with the southern border it's a big problem for a lot of people right now and it's not something i've seen personally affect my life

that much but it does concern me that it's been an ongoing problem for a while and it doesn't seem like there's any progress. It doesn't seem like there's any mentioning toward why there hasn't been progress or explanation. It seems like we have a lot of problems in this country and the response to them has just been to kind of ignore them. Okay. And now let's talk about the presumptive challenger, former President Donald Trump, who served as president from 2016 to 2020. Real quick, do you remember much of his presidency? I know that when I was, I guess, 13 to 17 or 14 to 18, I remember living under the George W. Bush administration. I remember getting opinions of that administration, but I couldn't be able to tell you honestly that I can recall a lot of details with clarity.

So what do you remember about his presidency? What's your impression about it? Yeah, I think I remember quite a bit of it because it was constantly just in the news and everywhere. She was such a disruptive president that it was kind of impossible for not to stick out in your daily life. I mean, you'd go to school and kids are talking at lunch about what Trump tweeted and things like that because it was just always an ever present thing that's in the news. It's always the next thing. So I do remember quite a bit. And there are some like with Biden specific policies that I i'm like oh i can appreciate that um but it

was also definitely disruptive and i do not like his rhetoric i'll be the first to say that i think he's incredibly cruel and exacerbates a lot of the already existing institutional distrust that we have and a lot of the problems that we have in this country, he was both kind of a result of them and made them worse, I think, in a lot of ways. So coming into 2024, are there things that you are watching with Trump as potential things that are going to tip your vote more one way or the other? Yeah. If you had asked me a year ago if I would have even considered voting for him, the answer definitely would have been no. And a big part of

that is due to not just what he's saying, but the election denialism, not committing to a peaceful transfer of power. And then we have January 6th. And I didn't think anything could really change my mind or kind of top that. But thinking about the specific context that we're in and going back to the foreign policy point, I'm thinking, well, if nothing else, Trump keeps people on their toes, myself included. And I think what he says and what he does is very shocking to allies and adversaries in a way that might be good. I would like to have a good relationship with our allies. But if nothing else, if our adversaries don't know if he's serious or not when he says something, then they might actually listen because they don't know what's going to happen. They don't know what the consequences might be of a certain action.

listen, because they don't know what's going to happen. They don't know what the consequences might be of a certain action. So that's not always a good thing, but it could be in this specific time and place that we're in. So I think what I'm looking for from him is, again, being like, is anything that he's going to do, does it have any effect? Because the things that he's saying at this point, they're still making headlines, but i don't know if anyone's really taking them seriously i know at this point i'm certainly not taking a lot of the things that he says seriously when he refers to things about nato or weaponizing the doj i'm like but are you really going to do that or do you know how to get headlines and cameras on you um and if I were to see some indication that he was serious about doing the more damaging things, like weaponizing the DOJ, if I saw evidence of that,

I would, that would sway my vote negatively. And then it would be more positive if maybe he toned down some of that rhetoric and instead offered some sort of constructive plan for what he would do if he were to be elected instead of Joe Biden. Okay. So looking for specifics from Trump, looking for less rhetoric that would be potentially intensifying, do you think that if we get a clear sense right now, it's about 90, I'd say higher than 90% that we have an idea of who the candidates are. I know you're supporting the challengers in the primary processes. Do you think that your opinion might start to change or calcify maybe after we get a better sense of what's going to happen on the other side of the nominations for both parties? I don't think my opinions will shift too much as much as i'm i'm holding on to that last

shred of hope that we might have an alternative for some weird reason um but i think i think you're right it is pretty likely it's going to be trump and biden again and so i'm kind of orienting what i'm watching and and the news I'm consuming towards expecting that to be the case, which is unfortunate, but it just kind of is what it is. And I actually can't even vote in the primary because I'm a registered independent. And in Ohio, you have to pick a party if you want to vote in that primary. So I'm just kind of sitting back being like, I'm at the mercy of other voters right now and what they end up doing and just kind of expecting that I'm going to have to make that Trump-Biden decision, see what happens. As we wrap up,

I think our first discussion, just want to see if you could pull yourself internally and think, if I had to vote right now or had to vote tomorrow, where am I leaning? What do I think I'm going to do? Oh, that's so difficult. To be honest, I think I would either, again, if it were tomorrow, I would either go for one of the underdogs or maybe like write in just because at this point in time, I don't have anything nothing happens, as we stand right now, I cannot vote for someone who might be putting democracy in danger by saying they're not going to accept election results unless I have a really, really solid reason to do so, I think. Okay. Well, Claire, thank you for taking the time to talk with me today about all the things that are going on at the presidential election and in your head as you try to make up your mind coming into November. Appreciate you taking the time.

Yeah, it was fun. Thank you for having me. Now we're going to move to Arizona, where Magdalena Bikova, our social media editor, spoke with Brian. Though Brian has voted in other elections before, the 28-year-old father of two has often leaned on the opinions of friends and family to make his choice. He's a deeply devoted Christian, which informs the majority of his decision-making, and he hopes to one day work in the ministry. He also considers himself a political novice, with a desire to be more informed before going into the voting booth this November. My name is Brian, and I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and it's been quite a journey getting to where I'm at. Grew up in a pretty conservative Christian household

and had, you know, standard American family, mom, dad, two and a half kids. You know, with my personality type, I made up the half in the half point. Got out of high school, went straight into work, didn't go off to college or anything like that. And had to just kind of learn for myself and figure out where i want to go went off to be a flight attendant for a while got to see a good portion of the states flew originally uh out of dallas fort worth and really the more i entered the world the more my perspective broadened and the more i realized things are not always as they seem. I was talking with my wife last night and we were just reflecting 10 years ago. I was 18, so I'm 28 years old. And I was just thinking like, man, at 18 years old, I never could have imagined getting to where I'm at now with two babies, a wife, a house, a dog, another dog.

Overall, I mean, it's been a fun ride so far, but it's been a fun ride so far but it's been a hard ride and nowadays i feel like i have to think through things very very differently than how i was raised to think through things what are you doing now for i actually make b. I put them in new leather covers out of my own shop that's based out of Levine, Arizona. And so I run a business full-time right now. And the plan from here on out, I'm working on my degree and hopefully will enter ministry one day. You have a strong connection, obviously, to Christianityity it seems like it's in your work it's how you're making money um providing for your family of young family um how has it influenced your politics and your ideologies there uh growing up politics was kind of a side issue and it didn't

really belong in the pulpit and it wasn't addressed. So I just grew up with my parents' voting habits. They voted, you know, my dad is a very, very smart guy and I would just, I would do what he did because he knew everything in my mind. And I did that for 2016 election. I started thinking more for myself in the 2020 election and did my own thing. But Christian culture has really started to influence my ideologies and politics. Christianity has a lot to say. Surprisingly, it has a lot to say in terms of how we should think about who belongs in office and what the role of government is in God's economy and how he

designed things. And so it's very much a top-down approach rather than a bottom-up approach. Top-down meaning we start with God, we start with what he says, we start with his word, and we work our way down into all the rest of life. his word and we work our way down into all the rest of life so in 2016 you said you followed like who your parents voted for your dad um so who did you vote for in 2016 yeah first year voting voted clinton i it was it was like a coin toss for me um i wanted to put the rock duane johnson on my ballad and i didn't do that i figured i should probably just you know i need to i need to fill one of the lines with the printed names i just got to do it so i just you know i know my dad's doing this i know my mom's doing this uh okay so i just kind of you know know, Lord, forgive me, you know, cause I, at the time I

didn't, I didn't like either one. I didn't know what to do. And so I was like, I'm going to play safe bet. So that's how I went about it. 2016, 2020, I was like, you know what, let's, let's think through the issue. And in my mind, the answer to that was, uh, voting with the party that's consistent with my beliefs generally generally. At the time, 2020, when that time frame rolled around, I didn't know exactly what I know now. Like, the explanation I just gave you would never have crossed my mind when I voted in 2020. So I just voted Trump as, like, okay, he's a Republican. I think that's a consistent Christian thing to do. That's what we're going to make it. Just to clarify, for 2020, did you like Trump?

In regards to Trump and how I felt, I, again, adopted kind of my parents' view. My parents hate him, and I therefore hated him. And going into the 2020 cycle, I thought, you know, he did a lot of things that were really, really out there. A lot of stuff that a lot of Christian peers, people I was familiar with, they admired. And I thought, I guess that's admirable because they think it's admirable. And things that he didn't do well that became vocalized. And I thought, you know, they think he didn't do well there. I guess I don't think that he did well there. So it was very much like borrowing other people's views without really forming mine. How much does the president being religious matter to you? Or is it just embodying like certain Christian values. For you, if you're looking at Trump and Biden,

does Trump embody more of those Christian value sets, or Biden is also Catholic? Does that matter to you? In terms of thinking of the personal beliefs of the president, in the framework that I have, what I would believe that the Bible would lead me to believe is that a consistent Christian who is repentant, who bows the knee to Jesus, who wants to live consistently with his word, is going to be suited for any position in office, any matter whatsoever. And I think he will be competent so long as he bows the knee to Jesus and he is consistent with what God's word reveals and how to do his job and what to do. Do I think either president embodies that? No. Do I think that's an important thing? I do, to an extent, you know,

because I want to serve under a president and I want to have a president run this country who has been changed because the thing that's wrong with this world from a biblical perspective it's a sin problem and if you put a you know someone who's not saved a sinner in the oval office and and they want to reject what God says in His Word and leads the country to do the same, well, it's happened before in biblical history. It doesn't turn out good for the nation. Whereas you get somebody who honors God's law, you get somebody who honors what He has revealed in His Word, a president who is consistent with that, the country goes a different direction. And God honors that. And so it is important. Are there certain things that either candidate has done that has shaken your belief that they will lead with some of the

value sets that you're describing? I mean, Trump has a history and a record with all the things he's done and been accused of. Biden has accusations and there are a lot of other things that can be said about him. Both have stains in their record. It does make it hard and it's not a matter of looking for who performs the best. Obviously, I can't look into either one of the guys' hearts. I can't judge from my perspective whether or not he really is a Christian or he really is not, you know, because if I were to take it to that point and say, I know he's a Christian, you know, he's going to be the guy. I mean, I just can't say that because, again, people can be not only christian people can

demonstrate some consistency even with christianity and still be morally corrupt and just you know utterly like disgusting you know what i mean and that kind of is what makes it hard because if i'm trying to be consistent well what do i do with someone who might say they're religious but doesn't live that consistency am i voting because they say so or am I voting on another issue? You know, so. What are your top issues in this election cycle that are kind of influencing some of your decision-making thought process? The issue for me that affects all the others is how easy is it for me to do my job as a Christian, as an ambassador for Jesus, sending the gospel out into the world, calling people to repentance. That job, I'm required to do it. I have to.

Because that's what my king has said, do, do. You know, go disciple the nations, teach them to obey all that I commanded. I have to do that. Biden and this administration made it very hard to do that, especially here in the Phoenix area, out in California, pastor friends, you know, with the world shutdowns and stuff like that, and also watching Biden explain the reasoning behind certain aspects of that, it became hard to be a Christian because, you know, you can't go out and evangelize when everything is locked down, you know, trying to split up gatherings, trying to tell churches you can't gather. That was very difficult. Things like the equal rights stuff about the LGBTQ community and criminalizing

misgendering and things like that in certain areas. That makes it very hard to be a consistent Christian to proclaim the lordship of Christ over, over all aspects of life. Because as soon as you disagree with somebody and say, you know, he is giving me a hard time. Well, you know, that can,

that can have some serious consequences for people and people have experienced those consequences. So the overarching umbrella issue is, can I do my job in telling people about Jesus, and how hard or how easy is it to do that? Because the more I can tell people about Jesus and bring them into a consistency with what they, in their heart of hearts, believe to be true about God and his world, call them to repentance, they believe in Jesus, then we all of a sudden have a consistent framework for thinking through, you know, what do we do about Israel, Palestine? How do we think about the different

issues coming to light about the presidents, about the lawsuits, about the moral injustice, about what's going on globally, about the border, about abortion, things like that. Because repentant people think through things differently than unrepentant people. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. And last but not least, we have Phil, a semi-retired pastor who still teaches in the doctoral program at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. With a PhD from Cambridge and over three decades as a pastor, Phil is an expert on evangelical faith and continues to teach the next generation of leaders in ministry. Our editor, Will Kabak, spoke with him about the crossroads of faith

and politics, why he feels the term evangelical has been distorted, and his current thoughts on the candidates. I'm Phil, and I'm, it's hard to admit this, but I'm 65 years old and live in central Pennsylvania. But today I'm tuning in from Scottsdale, Arizona, which is where I grew up. And can you tell me about the focus of your work in your life and career? Basically, for three decades, a little bit more, I was a pastor. And I've been a youth pastor and associate pastor, but for 21 years. I pastored an evangelical free church in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, which is just outside of Harrisburg. It's kind of a suburb, if you will, of the Harrisburg area, which is the capital, oddly enough, of Pennsylvania,

even though it's not the center of what happens in Pennsylvania. And how do you spend your time these days? Well, I'm semi-retired. After pastoring, I began to teach other pastors, and I teach in the doctoral program at Gordon-Conwell Seminary, which has a campus in Boston Boston for three years, a fairly historic church, at least within the evangelical movement, a Park Street church. And I was teaching at Gordon-Conwell and pastoring at that church, but I moved back to central Pennsylvania where family is. So I travel to teach intensives and I supervise students and that keeps me busy and without the pressure of full-time employment. So I want to talk about two different elements there that you touched on and how they've influenced your values and also the way you think about politics, maybe the synthesis of the two. So how would you say your family and upbringing, you know, going back to growing up in Arizona, you know, through college, maybe, how's that influenced and shaped your values in life?

Yeah, I think we're all a product of our upbringing, hopefully not completely defined by it. And I grew up in a, what I'd call a genuinely vibrant Christian home. And though it would, I would characterize it now as a fundamentalist evangelical home. I didn't know it at the time. But I've since been on a journey, time. But I've since been on a journey, a broadening journey, theologically and culturally. But I was raised in a very conservative home. And I also grew up in Arizona. At a time when it wasn't a swing state, it was thoroughly Republican. And it was the post Barry Goldwater days. That's long before your time. But so I, in fact, I was a committed, politically committed young person. We had a thing called Boy State. And I was elected governor of Boy State. And as a result, I kind of traveled around the state when I was 17 years old, giving lectures. And as I look back, it was rather naive, but I was giving

political lectures. So I was a thoroughly committed Republican. And since then, I mean, I moved east, I went to a very open liberal college, a little school called Haverford College in Pennsylvania, where I would call the political captivity of American evangelicalism. So that's part of my story as well. I describe myself now as a more open evangelical life, you know, obviously. I got my doctorate at Cambridge University, which exposed me again to culture outside of the United States. My daughter went to Oxford, partly because we had that connection, and we have lively discussions, because I still tend to be Republican in my preferences. And my daughter has become much more Democrat in her preferences, though we share a common faith.

And she's very bright. So we have lively political conversations. That's lovely. And that's a nice segue, too too into the second part of that question. I'm curious how in the way that you practice and the way that maybe you teach as well, what are the values that you find core to being an evangelical Christian? What do you think that represents to you? I mean, evangelical is a politicized label, unfortunately, because it's distorted by being politicized. In fact, my doctoral work has a lot to do with defining the identity of evangelicalism.

But historically, evangelicalism simply means someone is from Greek, euangelion, which means gospel. It's basically someone who believes that Jesus is the Messiah. But it has no essential connection to a political position at all. And yet, in the public arena with grace and not with undue aggressiveness that's not defined by hate and an oppositional stance. And that actually describes most of the evangelicals I know, but it's not the way evangelicals tend to be described in the public arena. Yeah, it's interesting hearing you describe that. I'm curious, have you ever, you know, maybe since the 80s, you described this like political element start to come in

to what it means to be an evangelical or what the term is associated with. Have you ever felt like, oh, maybe I don't want to associate myself with this word? You know, obviously not change your faith, but have you ever questioned whether you want to identify as an evangelical? Oh, definitely. In fact, I certainly wouldn't tend to lead with that self-descriptor because I think it miscommunicates. lead with that self descriptor, because I think it miscommunicates. What many people do not understand is if you go back to the United States in the 19th century, it was a broadly evangelical country. The various denomination, I mean, Protestantism was dominant, and whatever denomination of

Protestants you were, there was a general commitment to a shared theology. Presidents of seminaries or of universities, Princeton, for example, would have been an evangelical and would have understood, would have shared a similar theology to myself. Politicians, I mean, if you read the McGuffey's Readers, which were a textbook in the schools in the 19th century in America, it's shaped by a kind of evangelical worldview. So, it has a, So it has, I would say, a rich and positive history, but it went through a stage of fundamentalism, opposition to culture, getting out of touch with the learning of the day through much of the early part of the 20th century, which forever distorted and shaped. Very briefly, I'd like to talk about your voting history. Let's start in 2008 and 2012. Maybe you could just give 30 seconds to a minute on who you voted for, if you're comfortable sharing in 2008, 2012, and your impressions of the candidates in those presidential elections. moment in American history that we could at some level get past the tragedy of the treatment of

African Americans. Not that selecting Obama did that. So while I preferred McCain for his political points of view and found him to have a good character. I wasn't at all disappointed that he lost. In fact, I found myself grateful. And as I was reflecting back about the only time that I have voted outside of the Republican point of view is I voted for Jimmy Carter. And that probably was because of his religious convictions and his character. But it was also at a time in American politics which were much less polarized.

And there was much less at stake. And I would say this was true of 2008 and even 2012. Though there were significant political differences, it was not the kind of culture we live in today, the polarization. And either candidate, whether Obama, McCain, Obama, Romney, would have made a president I would be proud of and glad to follow and support. A president I would be proud of and glad to follow and support. That's no longer the situation in American politics. The situation in American politics now is unprecedented, it seems to me. It's not just that we disagree politically. It's that we can't talk to each other reasonably. And I don't remember a time like that. 2016 comes around, Donald Trump is the Republican nominee. Maybe before, you know, before we talk about the matchup between him and Hillary Clinton, how did you feel when he became the Republican nominee? I felt despair and shock. I mean, I was one of those that found him, his candidacy, ludicrous. I don't find him articulate. And, you know, intelligence and the ability to articulate is a high value of mine. I didn't, but my primary objections had to do with character. Here's evangelicalism and

its opposition to Clinton on supposed moral grounds, somehow swallowing, you know, a serial adulterer who's made his money on gambling. I mean, it was a shock to me. And of course, the way he spoke and treated other people like a bully on a playground, I was just amazed. In retrospect, I can see what's some of the things going on. I mean, there was a build up of frustration in America that, if you will, created the candidacy of Trump and got behind him. But no, I was quickly a never Trumper. I'd be embarrassed to try to explain to my children how I would support Trump and still maintain my intellectual convictions and my moral values. So did you vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016? No. I did what I had never done before. I voted, and I left that one blank. I didn't vote for a

presidential candidate. Because for me, Hillary didn't represent either the character or the political orientation that I preferred. In retrospect, I don't know that my vote would have made a difference, but rather than Trump winning, I would have preferred Hillary. Did you expect Trump to win? No, I really didn't. Did you vote for a presidential candidate in 2020? I did the same thing that I had done before. And that's what I'm trying to decide now.

Because I have political objections to Biden, but I also have concerns, rooted mostly in his family and the behaviors there, in terms of character, that make him a very distasteful candidate for me. But now, even more than that, just basic competence. I think there's danger with either candidate being given that much authority and that much power. And I don't ever remember being in a situation like this politically. from these five undecided voters. Diana, Zahid, Claire, Brian, and Phil. Florida, California, Ohio, Arizona, and Pennsylvania. We're going to be tracking them as they make their decisions about where they're going to cast their ballots in the 2024 election.

We're going to continue probing them about who they are leaning towards, why, what's informing their decisions, what stories from the campaign trail are influencing the way they think about each candidate. Stick with us as we take a plunge into the 2024 election with these voters and we learn where they end up. The Undecideds is a Tangle Media production. The Undecideds is a Tangle Media production. This episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by John Long.

Interviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokova, Will Kabik, John Long, and Ari Weitzman. Music was composed and produced by John Long, and Ari Weitzman. Music was composed and produced by John Long. For more content from Tangle Media, please go to our website at retangle.com. Thanks for watching! Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history,

and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. The flu remains a serious disease. Last season, over 102,000 influenza cases have been reported across Canada, which is nearly double the historic average of 52,000 cases.

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