Tangle - Prescription Drug Prices

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Starting point is 00:00:29 Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Starting point is 00:00:49 Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year. Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins Thank you. this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.

Starting point is 00:01:51 Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and I am here in Chicago for the Democratic National Convention. If you are interested in what's going on on the ground here, we are posting on our Instagram channel, Tangle News on Instagram, on our YouTube channel, Tangle News with some updates. On Friday, I'm going to kind of unload my notebook and share it with everybody on just all the things I'm seeing on the ground and what it's actually like out here. Because, spoiler alert, it's a lot different than what I'm seeing on Twitter and in the news. The actual event itself feels different and looks different to me, at least observing it first

Starting point is 00:02:36 person here. But today, we have something different for you. We have a podcast on the latest regarding Medicare and negotiated drug prices. We're going to be talking about the latest news that the Biden administration has announced an agreement with drug makers to reduce the price of prescription drugs. And we're going to break down some arguments about that news. Before we jump in, if you are somebody who's listening to this and you're out in Chicago at the DNC, or you've got a tip, where you want to contact or connect with me, feel free to reach out. Isaac, I-S-A-A-C at readtangled.com. With that, I'm going to send

Starting point is 00:03:13 it over to John for our main story, and I'll be back for my take and your questions answered. Thanks, Isaac, and welcome, everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, in a speech at the Democratic National Convention, President Joe Biden defended his legacy and promised Vice President Kamala Harris he would continue the work he started in office. Hillary Clinton, Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Jill Biden, Senator Raphael Warnock, and several others also spoke. Harris made a brief surprise appearance. Number two, the Republican-led House impeachment inquiry into President Biden ended yesterday, with House investigators accusing the president of impeachable acts, but stopping short of recommending formal impeachment proceedings.

Starting point is 00:04:01 Number three, Iran was behind the hack of the Trump presidential campaign, according to U.S. officials. Number four, former GOP representative George Santos pleaded guilty to two federal offenses for wire fraud and identity theft. He faces a minimum of two years in prison when he is sentenced on February 7th. And number five, a federal judge denied Hunter Biden's request to have his tax charges dismissed, all but ensuring his trial will proceed as scheduled next month. And now for today's story, which is prescription drug prices. Big news from the Biden administration and its ongoing efforts to curb prescription drug costs for millions of Americans.

Starting point is 00:04:46 This morning, results of the first round of price negotiations with drug manufacturers have been announced. The administration predicting billions in savings in the coming years. On Thursday, the Biden administration announced an agreement with drug makers to reduce the prices of 10 of the most common prescription drugs covered under Medicare Part D. The agreement marks the first time the federal government has negotiated with pharmaceutical companies on drug prices, and the administration estimates the lower prices will save Medicare $6 billion when the deal goes into effect in 2026. A reminder, Medicare is a federal health insurance program for people who are 65 and older. Medicare Part D helps cover the cost of prescription drugs. In 2022, the Inflation Reduction Act authorized Medicare to negotiate

Starting point is 00:05:30 drug prices directly with drug makers. And in 2023, the Biden administration announced the first 10 drugs subject to price negotiations. The drugs affected by the price negotiations and the percent decrease cover a wide range of health issues, including arthritis, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, blood cancer, and psoriasis. These reflect the price reduction relative to the full retail price of the medication and do not include any discounts or rebates the drug company may have offered. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services plans to select up to 15 more drugs covered under Part D for negotiation by February 1, 2025. Pharmaceutical companies have challenged the constitutionality of Medicare drug price negotiations under the IRA, arguing the government is compelling drug makers to agree against their

Starting point is 00:06:15 First Amendment rights and is levying excess fines for noncompliance against their Eighth Amendment rights. However, those challenges have failed so far, with federal courts rejecting the constitutionality arguments and finding that drug makers are not compelled to sell to Medicare. Drug makers also warned that lowering the price of prescription drugs could stifle research into new treatments. A spokesperson for Novartis said the deal will have long-lasting and devastating consequences for patients by limiting access to medicines now and in the future. The Congressional Budget Office estimates the Medicare drug price negotiation program will result in 13 fewer new drugs coming to market in the next 30 years out of a projected 1,300 new drugs.

Starting point is 00:06:55 Dr. Stacey Dusatzina, a professor of health policy at Vanderbilt School of Medicine, suggested the price cuts are not so great that they would meaningfully impact a company's bottom line. Companies are still going to be able to make profits and have incentives to innovate, Dusatina said. Today, we'll explore arguments about the first round of these negotiations with views from the right and the left, and then Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this quick break. Whether renting, renewing a mortgage, or considering buying a home, everybody has housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances,

Starting point is 00:07:42 visit Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. All right, first up, here's what the right is saying. The right opposes the negotiations on principle, arguing they will lead to less medical innovation. Some say the deal is in line with Harris's support for price controls in other markets. Others say Biden and Harris are concealing the downsides of the negotiations from voters.

Starting point is 00:08:45 The Wall Street Journal editorial board said drug price controls mean fewer cures. A portent came last week from Charles River Laboratories, a top research contractor that helps drug makers with clinical trials. The company warned in its quarterly earnings report that pharmaceutical companies are slashing research and development owing to the IRA's drug price controls, the board wrote. The IRA let Medicare negotiate prices for 10 to 20 drugs a year and a total of 60 by 2029. Negotiate is a euphemism for extortion. Drug makers that don't participate or reject the government's price face a daily excess tax that starts at 186% and climbs to 1,900% of a drug's daily revenue. Normally, drug makers seek to launch medicines that have multiple potential indications in the market in which they can be developed the fastest,

Starting point is 00:09:34 often those for small populations and rare diseases, since those trials don't have to be as large, the board said. But the IRA encourages companies to develop medicines first for larger populations to maximize revenue before they become eligible for Medicare price controls, seven years after government approval for small molecule drugs and 11 for biologics. This means that treatments for diseases affecting smaller populations may never be developed. In the Washington Examiner, Tom Price and Elaine Parker suggested the move foreshadows more bad policy in a prospective Harris administration. Beyond reshuffling the political horse race, a Harris-Walls administration wouldn't change much. It would just mean more of the same bad policies from Democrats. For health care, that spells fewer choices for patients and higher

Starting point is 00:10:18 costs, Price and Parker wrote. Under Biden, the Department of Health and Human Services is using the heavy hand of government to dictate prices of certain drugs accessed through Medicare. If Democrats win the White House for another term, hopes of undoing these government price controls will be dashed. The process of fixing prices and attempting to manipulate free market mechanisms is already having severe unintended consequences for seniors. Average Medicare Part D premiums are up 21% this year compared to 2023. Average Medicare Part D premiums are up 21% this year compared to 2023, and the ballooning out-of-pocket costs are expected to worsen as price controls go into full force in the next two years, Price and Parker said. Republicans have a much stronger track record. Republicans have championed the expansion of association health plans, which make it easier for smaller businesses to band together to buy coverage for employees.

Starting point is 00:11:06 The move provided extra bargaining power so Main Street could negotiate more favorable prices and terms such as those enjoyed by larger corporations. In the New York Sun, Dean Karayanas called the negotiations a prescription for pain. The White House is touting a deal with pharmaceutical companies to shave $6 billion off of Medicare costs by 2026, a move they say will save $1.5 billion for seniors.

Starting point is 00:11:24 The headlines will score political points, but a less sunny prognosis is taking shape. More pain tomorrow for promises of relief today, Karyanis wrote. As the high from this announcement wears off, expect Ms. Harris to seek distance from this policy as she has with so many of Mr. Biden's initiatives. Price controls, the essence of the Medicare deal, may be popular in the short term, but they always have unintended consequences in the market. While Mr. Biden criticized the exorbitant profits of Big Pharma, he ignored how that money funds the search for new cures and treatments. A life sciences firm, IQVIA, which tracks clinical research, found that companies had reduced spending on research and development by 22% since 2021, Kariannis said. reduced spending on research and development by 22% since 2021, Kariannis said. Mr. Biden and Ms.

Starting point is 00:12:10 Harris know that Medicare is popular and that pharmaceutical companies make easy targets, but seniors care little for political games. They're about to get mauled by high costs, having been promised honey at election time by bears far better suited to selling snake oil. All right, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. The left praises the Biden administration for securing meaningful cost reductions for Medicare and its recipients. Some say Harris should tout the deal at every campaign stop. Others say the deal is just a small step toward addressing out-of-control health care costs. In the Washington Post,

Starting point is 00:12:49 Jennifer Rubin wrote about Harris and Biden's well-earned victory lap on drug prices. If total jobs and the drop in inflation fail to impress voters, touting more specific accomplishments might. Harris did that on Thursday in an appearance with Biden in Maryland announcing the completion of Medicare negotiations with drug companies on the first 10 drugs designed for cost containment under the Inflation Reduction Act, Rubin said. While this accomplishment most directly helps older Americans, the benefits may be felt by a much wider segment of consumers. The administration hopes that now that these drug prices are public and below current insurance rates, the new prices will put downward pressure on prices for all patients. Prescription drug prices are one and below current insurance rates, the new prices will put downward pressure

Starting point is 00:13:25 on prices for all patients. Prescription drug prices are one element of a larger economic narrative for Harris. Going after businesses that take advantage of consumers appears to be one of the strongest issues, according to a detailed messaging survey of battleground voters from the Democratic polling firm Greenberg Research. It found that in addition to abortion, the infrastructure plan, and the prescription drug cost controls, Harris's most popular issues include a crackdown on tax evasion by wealthy and big corporations, instituting a 15% minimum tax, and going after greedy monopolies making super profits and to lower prices and return money to consumers. In the New Republic, Timothy Noah said Harris should talk about drug price reductions in every

Starting point is 00:14:04 speech. Among other talking points, Harris can say that while Trump promises to lower drug prices, the Biden administration is actually doing it. The lowering of Medicare drug prices also helps Harris answer Trump's lunge for the elderly vote by promising to eliminate taxes on Social Security, Noah wrote. Medicare price negotiation is a stunning legislative and administrative accomplishment. Medicare price negotiation is a stunning legislative and administrative accomplishment. Credit for getting drug companies to negotiate Medicare discounts resides exclusively with Democrats, because not even one Republican member of Congress could bring themselves to vote for the IRA. Healthcare policy mustn't be thought of as something distinct from economic policy. It pretty much is economic policy.

Starting point is 00:14:40 That's because high prices limit access to healthcare, because healthcare is the nation's largest industry sector, and because apart from the defense industry, which is much smaller, health care is the industry sector over which the federal government exercises the most control, Noah said. Negotiated Medicare drug prices should be a central point not only in Harris's Friday speech on economic policy, but in all her discussion on economic policy going forward. In the New York Times, Erin E. Carroll asked if the deal marked a $6 billion breakthrough or a drop in the bucket.

Starting point is 00:15:10 For years, the fight to control health care prices, perhaps the most significant factor in health care spending, has felt like an unwinnable battle. So it's no small feat that Medicare is finally flexing its negotiating muscles. But it's also a drop in the bucket, Carroll wrote. $6 billion is in chump change, and that number will surely grow as more drugs are added to the list for consideration. But it's also a tiny component of the roughly $250 billion Part D spends on drugs. It's an even tinier part of the $4.5 trillion that the United States spends on healthcare in 2022 alone.

Starting point is 00:15:42 In fact, it's likely that a fair number of seniors won't actually feel much of the change in their yearly out-of-pocket costs with these new prices. Many who buy these drugs, even after the reduction, would still hit the cap on out-of-pocket spending that Medicare Part D allows, Carroll said. Fixing health care spending is anything but simple. If we reduce out-of-pocket payments, then premiums will go up.

Starting point is 00:16:02 Only by lowering prices can overall spending decline, and that's why it's important that the government has now successfully done so, even in a small way. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take. All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So yesterday, we talked about how Harris's plan to limit price gouging addressed the wrong problem poorly. The negotiated Medicare prices are a complete 180. A real problem, a real solution, prices are a complete 180. A real problem, a real solution, poised to benefit millions of Americans in 2026. Both proposals involve the government basically setting prices, which begs the question, why is this different? The price gouging ban would be the government setting a control for the entire market. Medicare drug negotiations, on the other hand, is the government exercising its power as a consumer, albeit an enormous consumer. Rather than enforcing more restrictions on the market,

Starting point is 00:17:09 this actually removes a restriction that prevented the largest drug buyer from exercising its market power. This unleashes all the efficiencies of a free market that were previously hurting Medicare and its recipients—less regulation and purchasing, better free market pricing, and increased competition among suppliers to out-compete each other. Until the Inflation Reduction Act, the IRA, the government was barred from negotiating prices directly under the terms of the 2003 Medicare Prescription Drug Improvement and Modernization Act. Instead, formularies approved by the government have been handling negotiations.

Starting point is 00:17:46 The IRA essentially cut out this middleman and doing so has already resulted in huge price reductions, which is telling. The Wall Street Journal editorial board is correct that companies don't really have much power in these negotiations with the government, but they're still positioned to make handsome profits, even if their margins might now be slimmer.

Starting point is 00:18:05 When President Biden announced price negotiations last year, we weren't sure where to land. Drug pricing is pretty complicated, and there are still a lot of things about our healthcare system that need to be reformed that drug negotiations will not affect. So with that in mind, it's only fair to go over all the ways this kind of reform falls short or could backfire. First, it doesn't do anything about pharmacy benefit managers, also known as PBMs, which negotiate drug prices on behalf of insurance providers, often winning large rebates from drug companies. However, PBMs don't pass those savings

Starting point is 00:18:36 onto their clients, and 79% of the market is dominated by three firms. Pundits on both sides are pushing to reform the system. And while it's unclear how much that would help, this plan doesn't touch them at all. Second, this bill only allows Medicare to negotiate the prices of 10 drugs. So for insurance providers paying for expensive drugs to treat things like muscular dystrophy or melanoma, you're out of luck for now. Third, drug providers may have to look elsewhere to make up for this lost revenue. That could mean either cuts to research and development for future life-saving medicine or higher prices for private insurance companies or other drugs outside these 10.

Starting point is 00:19:15 Fourth, the government could just become a giant PBM. As the University of Michigan's A. Mark Fendrick notes, the private plans administering Part D benefits may move drugs that are selected for negotiation into a higher cost-sharing tier, even though Medicare itself will receive the lower negotiated price. That means some of the out-of-pocket savings for patients could be much less than the government is projecting. And fifth, Medicare Part D sponsors are required to cover just two medicines per therapeutic class, and they must cover the drugs that are part of the price negotiation program. So patients who are taking medication not covered by the negotiations may be forced to switch to drugs that are covered.

Starting point is 00:19:55 Still, at the end of the day, I'm getting more and more convinced that this kind of legislation will do more good than bad. For the shortfalls, it's totally fine that this price negotiation doesn't address PBMs. If there's actually bipartisan will to reform that system, then there's nothing stopping Congress from reforming the system. And the government is already negotiating more drug prices, with CMS set to select 15 more drugs for price negotiation by February. As for the other issues, again, there's nothing stopping the government from reacting to new problems as they come up. To me, the most concerning risk is the loss in R&D, but new research is tempering my concerns. Nonpartisan analysts at the Congressional Budget Office projected the

Starting point is 00:20:34 drug price negotiation program will reduce the number of new drugs coming to market by just 1% over the next 30 years. And something that I haven't seen discussed is that severing the tie between Medicare costs and drug research might be a good thing. If the pharmaceutical industry is relying on inflated government payments to fund research, then cutting prices for drugs,

Starting point is 00:20:54 opening up more government research grants would be an improvement to that system. In fact, I think this is actually a pretty simple story. 10 very common medications just became more affordable for Medicare users, which is likely to lower healthcare costs for millions of people,

Starting point is 00:21:09 with billions in expected savings for both patients and the Medicare program as a whole. That's a good thing. And while there's more that the government could do to lower costs and plenty of caveats and concerns to watch moving forward, I'm optimistic that this can be the next step of the much-needed reforms

Starting point is 00:21:25 that both sides agree need to come to our healthcare system. We'll be right back after this quick break. Are you sure you parked over here? Do you see it anywhere? I think it's back this way. Come on. Hey, you're going the wrong way. Feeling distracted? You're not alone.

Starting point is 00:21:52 Whether renting, considering buying a home, or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown.

Starting point is 00:22:20 When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year. Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, Thank you. this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Karali in New Paltz, New York. Karali said, can you explain whether Tulsi Gabbard being put on the TSA watch list was done by Harris or by the military official she was criticizing? What is going on with this? Okay, so this is a kind of a

Starting point is 00:23:36 crazy story, and I can answer the first question pretty quickly. I have no idea why Tulsi Gabbard, the former Democratic representative from Hawaii and current independent, is on a TSA suspected terrorism watch list. So far, the only details that I've found have come out of one whistleblower account published in Uncover DC, a right-leaning news blog. It seems to be a legitimate report. Several representatives have come out to condemn Gabbard being placed on the watch list, but the TSA has said it does not confirm or deny whether any individual has been added to the agency's watch list. So what is going on?

Starting point is 00:24:10 Well, the government is surveilling people who are suspected threats. You may have heard of the no-fly list and the terrorist screening center, but Gabbard has allegedly been placed on a different terrorist watch list you might not have heard of called the Quiet Skies, which the TSA uses to identify international travelers

Starting point is 00:24:28 who may require additional security. During her travel in July, Gabbard was subjected to enhanced screening processes and covert surveillance by the air marshals at least eight times, according to Racket News. And Gabbard is not alone. The Boston Globe detailed the Quiet Skies program in a 2019 expose, quote,

Starting point is 00:24:46 travelers are not notified when they are placed on the watch list or have their activity and behavior monitored. Quiet Skies surveillance is an expansion of a long running practice in which federal air marshals are assigned to surveil the subjects of an open FBI terrorism investigation.

Starting point is 00:25:01 Little is known about the program's operations, but the Globe did confirm that about 40 people are on the list and that the Federal Air Marshal Service has no information on its effectiveness as a deterrent. If you couldn't tell, this is extremely distressing to me. Subjecting citizens to stops without explanation sure sounds like a due process violation, and I'm highly suspicious of government overstepping its boundaries in the name of security. Last year, we published a piece on FBI entrapment. Last month, we published a reader essay about the ineffectiveness and high cost of surveillance. We don't have details about why

Starting point is 00:25:36 Gabbard was reportedly added to this list yet, but to me, that's part of the issue. In a vacuum of information, it's easy to conclude it's some kind of political retaliation from agencies currently being led by Democratic appointees. We don't know what's going on with this, and we should all be demanding answers. All right, that is it for our Under the Radar section. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod, and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Don't forget to go check out our Instagram and YouTube channel for updates live from the DNC and Chicago. We'll see you soon. Peace.

Starting point is 00:26:09 Thanks, Isaac. Here's your Under the Radar story for today, folks. Ben Sasse, the former Republican senator from Nebraska, stepped down from his job as University of Florida president in July, just 17 months after he was hired. Sasse cited his wife's health as his reason for leaving, but he had also come under fire after tripling his office's annual spending from $5.6 million to $17.3 million in his first year while awarding lucrative contracts to big-name consulting firms

Starting point is 00:26:36 and high-salaried remote positions to his former U.S. Senate staff and Republican officials. In one of a half-dozen similar examples, Sass hired his former chief of staff, Raymond Sass, as UF's vice president for innovation and partnerships, a position that didn't previously exist, at a $396,000 a year salary. Sass worked the job remotely from Washington, D.C. The independent Florida Alligator, the school newspaper, broke the story, and there's a link in today's episode description.

Starting point is 00:27:04 to Alligator, the school newspaper, broke the story, and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. The approximate number of people in the U.S. enrolled in Medicare is 67.3 million as of April 2024. The estimated out-of-pocket spending in 2023 on the 10 drugs covered in the price reduction agreement among Americans with Medicare Part D coverage is $3.9 billion, according to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. The approximate Medicare Part D expenditures on the 10 drugs covered in the price reduction agreement in 2023 is $50 billion. The range in price reductions among the 10 drugs covered in the agreement is 38% to 79%. The estimated Medicare savings over 10 years, from 2022 to 2031,

Starting point is 00:27:50 from the drug negotiation provisions in the Inflation Reduction Act, will be $98.5 billion, according to the Congressional Budget Office. The approximate number of people with Medicare Part D coverage in 2023 was 54 million, according to the Department of Health and Human Services. The approximate number of Medicare recipients who used at least one of the 10 drugs selected for price negotiation in 2023 is 9 million. The percentage of U.S. adults who said they supported the provision in the Inflation Reduction Act to authorize the federal government to negotiate the price of some prescription drugs for people with Medicare is 81 percent, according to an August 2023 KFF poll. And the percentage of registered prescription drugs for people with Medicare is 81%, according to an August

Starting point is 00:28:25 2023 KFF poll. And the percentage of registered voters who said they were aware of a federal law requiring the government to negotiate the price of prescription drugs covered by Medicare is 36%, according to a May 2024 KFF poll. All right, and last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. All right, and last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. Heather Avis, known on Instagram by her handle, TheLuckyFewOfficial, recently shared a video of a joyful moment.

Starting point is 00:28:55 Her 15-year-old daughter, Macy, was invited to a birthday party. Macy, who is a high school freshman and has Down syndrome, was ecstatic as she showed the invitation to her mother. Heather wrote that the invitation speaks to the common humanity that we all share. We all, as humans, want to feel like we belong. We all want to be mother. Heather wrote that the invitation speaks to the common humanity that we all share. We all, as humans, want to feel like we belong. We all want to be wanted. Today.com has the story,

Starting point is 00:29:11 and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to readtangle.com and sign up for a membership. And as a reminder,

Starting point is 00:29:21 we're going to be covering the DNC all week, so go and check out our Instagram page and our YouTube channel for more coverage. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by Duke Thomas. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Will Kabak, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. The music for

Starting point is 00:29:50 the podcast was produced by Diet 75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go check out our website at readtangle.com. Bye.

Tangle - Prescription Drug Prices

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