Tangle - PREVIEW - INTERVIEW: Ari Weitzman talks with FairVote CEO Meredith Sumpter

Episode Date: March 5, 2025

In January, Managing Editor talked with Meredith Sumpter. She is the CEO of FairVote, a nonpartisan organization that researches and advances voting reforms including ranked choice voting and the Fair Representation Act. They discuss the significance of ranked choice voting (RCV) as a reform for improving American democracy. She addresses misconceptions about RCV, emphasizing its simplicity and effectiveness in enhancing voter representation and accountability.This is a preview of today's special edition that is available in full and ad-free for our premium podcast subscribers. If you'd like to complete this episode and receive Sunday editions, exclusive interviews, bonus content, and more, head over to ReadTangle.com and sign up for a membership.Ad-free podcasts are here!Many listeners have been asking for an ad-free version of this podcast that they could subscribe to — and we finally launched it. You can go to ReadTangle.com to sign up! You can also give the gift of a Tangle podcast subscription by clicking here.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our Executive Editor and Founder is Isaac Saul. Our Executive Producer is Jon Lall.This podcast was hosted by Ari Weitzman and Jon Lall and edited and engineered by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75 and Jon Lall. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Senior Editor Will Kaback, Hunter Casperson, Kendall White, Bailey Saul, and Audrey Moorehead. Our logo was created by Magdalena Bokowa, Head of Partnerships and Socials.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From executive producer, Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle podcast, the place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of our take. I'm your host for today, Ari Weitzman, Tangle managing editor, and I have a bit of a special episode for you all. As some of you may recall, back in the beginning of January,

just after we came back from break, we answered a question about ranked choice voting to a reader who was a little confused about the results of the last election and how it fared in some state level ballot initiatives. So rank choice voting was on the ballot. A lot of states didn't pass anywhere new and narrowly defended usage in Alaska and Maine. We got a breeder asking why that was. It seems like Voting Choice Voting is a good idea. It's something we've written about supportively before. So what are the arguments against it? In our answer to that question, we made a

couple statements that not only rubbed some of our friends over FairVote the wrong way. FairVote is an organization that talks about Voting Choice Voting and ways to reform the democratic process to make it more representative and fair. But we were also a little off the mark in some of the stuff we said. We're going to get into what we stepped in a little bit later in detail because I'm going to answer for our thought crimes here. A little tongue in cheek, we didn't really do anything super unfactual, super wrong, we didn't lie, but we represented some arguments and we're off the base with some of the ways we represented Frank Choice Voting and what its flaws are.

So we got a great email pushing back on some of the stuff we said from the folks at Fair Vote and we were offered to have a sit down conversation with Meredith Sumter, who is the CEO of the organization, and have a conversation about what we got right, what we got wrong, where she sees ranked choice voting evolving in the next couple years as well as for the next election and actually how it did in the last one. So it's a productive conversation, I thought. It's really appreciative for the opportunity to have it, though of course we regret having to issue corrections anytime we have to. I've been on the podcast for a bit.

While Isaac, our executive editor, was on Return Any Leave, he's back. He's doing our normal podcast. Our Friday is a lot of bonus features, but you're still going to be hearing a bit from me. So I'm going to be giving you some special interviews that we're going to keep recording, make sure that premium podcast listeners such as yourself can continue to get some of the interesting nuanced broad scoped coverage that you're used to hearing from us. All right.

Here's my conversation by Meredith Sumter, who is the CEO of the nonprofit FairVote. How are you doing today, Meredith? I'm well, Ari, and you? Well, I'm all right. I'm also a little bit nervous because I know part of what you're here to do is to make sure I'm taking my medicine over a correction that we had to issue about rank choice voting. So before I do that, just setting the table for our listeners and readers, many of you

know this, when we came back from break, we answered a reader question about why rank choice voting initiatives were voted down in the last election. Many ballot initiatives were, or in the last election. There were many states with these ballot initiatives, the majority were voted down. We answered a reader question saying why. In that reader question, we said, well, it's confusing. It spoils ballots more often than alternatives. It requires people to vote for third options.

A lot of these things were true. And then alternatives, it requires people to vote for third options. A lot of these things were true. We got a very polite but strongly worded email from the kind folks at FairVote letting us know. We had to issue a correction pretty much right after returning from break. It was a pretty bad look for us, but as always, we appreciate the feedback and the thoughtful consideration from our intelligent readers, and we're very happy that you are among them.

So we're going to get into that. But first, I think you should introduce yourself to everyone listening and tell us what you do at FairVote and how you got started with it. Oh, Ari, that's very kind of a first and foremost. It's just a real honor to be on the Tangle Podcast with you. And we really appreciate the opportunity to share more about what a ranked choice voting as a meaningful reform and a winning reform

can do and is capable of. So thanks so much for asking me to be on this show and to have this discussion. So I am the CEO at FairVote and FairVote Action, and these are our country's national nonprofits that are working to advance election reforms for better representation and better governance and Ranked Choice Voting is chief among them. So why Ranked Choice Voting? If you are a person who's concerned with electoral

reform in general, there are a lot of different ways to go about reforming our electoral system. What makes ranked choice voting your preferred method? It's a simple, proven way for our democracy to work for the American people. It gives voters more say and more choices in who represents them. As well as for candidates, it means campaigning to earn a broad majority of support of your voters and actually getting things done for them. So with ranked choice voting, voters have the option of ranking their preferred candidates, you know, first, second, and so on. And to win, candidates need a majority of voters' support. And so in that, you have a way of building in both an accountability of elected officials

to their voters broadly, as well as for voters, giving them better choices and more say in who represents them. That's also very important as well. I think just that the third reason why I like ranked choice voting so much is that the effects of these reforms, in addition to tying elected officials more closely to the needs of their constituents broadly, they also take what has been more of a toxic political culture and makes it much more

of a toxic political culture and makes it much more of a productive political culture with elected officials incentivized to get things done for their constituents. And that's why I think that ring choice voting is an important reform for Americans to consider it at this point in our political history. We'll be right back after this quick break. Okay, so that's a good response about Ringed Choice Voting, but another question that I think is important to lead with is why is this something that's caught your attention? Just going down your resume, looking at your background, you have experience directing

Harvard University and New America Justices Health and Democracy Impact Initiative. You're a CEO of the Council for Inclusive Capitalism. You're head of research and strategy at Eurasia Group. You oversaw this research platform and advice on global politics, and you just have all of this experience across the board. What brought you to consider electoral reforms as the next step that you're going to take in your career? Why now? Well, why now is that I'm just looking at an Ipsos poll just from this month.

You have 88% of Americans who don't believe that our politics are working for them. So there's a real market opportunity here to look at the way that our political and by political I mean election systems are working in service of the American voter. So my career has been one I've spanned both the public and the private sectors and I think broadly speaking it's been one of working to ensure that there is systems health that whether it's market systems or now let let's say, political or election systems, that these systems are functioning in ways that drive broad benefit for the shareholders in that system. And the most important shareholder here in our American democracy is the American voter,

the vast majority of whom don't believe that their elected officials know or care what they think uh... so for me it's just um... it's an incredible opportunity to work fair vote as well as election reform allies uh... who are all focused on building better representation uh... enabling better representation for voters and also rewarding leaders uh... who are working with others to get things done on behalf of their voters.

So broadly speaking, interested in the health of systems. And in that regard, I led by saying I need to take my medicine here. Our Tango system we think is generally healthy, but we had a little bit of a hiccup earlier this month. I'm going to make the unfortunate and awkward decision to read some of the answers to this reader question, or read part of this answer to the reader question that we got from Ben from Portland who asked why these ranked choice initiatives were voted down this past November. He asked, is it just too complicated for people and what other choices are there for getting

out of this, awful two party system? We replied, and again, just going to jump around and paraphrase here, yes, it's too complicated. That's not a trivial thing. When voters read up on the people they're choosing to be our leaders, they shouldn't have to read up on the system they use to elect those leaders. Electoral systems should be simple and intuitive. We then went on to say ranked choice voting was something that ended up resulting in more incorrect tabulations. They resulted in more

spoiled ballots. They resulted in delays in election results. These things we maybe didn't say explicitly, but we at least strongly implied more so than the standard systems that we have across the country now. We then said, quote, voters sometimes feel like they have to fill out a spreadsheet to simply make their voices heard. All in all, the complexity of the system creates what critics believe to be irredeemable inequities. Here we link to an article about how some people's votes counted more than others because some people were able to select more options for their electoral choices, whereas others opted not to.

We also have written about rank choice voting in the past. It's something that we've been favorable towards, frankly. It's something that I have a bias and favor towards myself. But in drafting this response, I think we probably checked our biases maybe a little too hard. And we got into some hot water with the good people at Fair Votes. So maybe you can tell us where we want to stray in our answer here. Oh, no hot water, Ari. I think it's just a wonderful opportunity to engage with what the evidence base is for how Americans are making use of this reform.

But before we even get into that, look, I think the November 2024 election wasn't one where that was very affirmative for the pro-democracy camp. Nearly all of the nonpartisan, pro-voter election reforms took a hit in November, with the exception of rank choice voting, which was the winning nonpartisan election reform, and it won across five cities in the United States. In addition to, we retained Alaska,

which is one of two states that use rank choice voting against a repeal effort there. So on the whole, I just want to preface this by saying this is a reform that continues to grow and continues to win even when you have rough election cycles, which do happen as countries, Americas and others, we go through cycles of reform. Progress is never a linear or straight line, but having the opportunity to speak with you about what these reforms are doing,

how Americans are using them. I think it's just a wonderful opportunity to answer questions that your listeners might have and speak to the points that you raised or points from opponents to election reform who were very well organized this last election cycle and worked to sow doubt amongst American voters of what these reforms are doing and are capable of. So I wonder, would it be helpful if we just would say for the misconceptions to go one point by point and sort of talk about what you've heard and then also what we know,

drawing from the the evidence base at Fairvote of the over let's say 800 for rape choice winning elections that we've been keeping track of and have data on over the past 20 years? Yes, I think we should definitely do that. And I'll say that just off the top, one of the things that's in the back of my head here listening to your response is that for sure this last election cycle was one you characterized as a rough cycle. But for a lot of people, it was a cycle that went to the direction they want to see the country go to.

So for this narrow interest about electoral reforms, which is something where I know that we have a lot of overlap in our interests, I think that's something where I could definitely agree, but I just don't want to go leave that broad characterization something that is unresponsive to as we move on to these small- No, that's exactly right. And we are aligned. When I say it was rough for pro-democracy reformers. that we're going to be able to make a difference in the way that we are going to be able to make a difference in the way that we are going to be able to make a difference in the way that we

are going to be able to make a difference in the way that we are going to be able to make a difference in the way that we are going to be able to make a difference in the way that we are going to be able to make a difference in the way that we are going to be able to make a difference in the way that we are going to be able to make a difference in the way that we and that you had a bevy of democracy reforms on the ballot, pro-voter democracy reforms. Nearly all of them did not pass with the exception of ranked choice voting in cities where we had an authentic ground game in peer-to-peer outreach, as well as there was one campaign finance reform in Maine.

So I want to give that a shout out as well. Okay. That's very important. But I think overhaul, you have this deep sense that American voters are, they are unsatisfied with how their politics is working for them. And that remains true. And that's the opportunity that we have as, whether you're democracy reformers or whether you're everyday Americans have been re-engaged in how our politics are working in the interest of ordinary Americans. I think that's really the work of our time and that's frankly why I'm here at Fair Vote

Ari. We'll be right back after this quick break. And we're going to get into some of the city reforms that you were talking about, but let's go one on one or one by one on those reforms that, or those misconceptions that you talked about. If they are indeed misconceptions, let's see. one by one on those reforms that or those misconceptions that you talked about if they are indeed misconceptions let's see so we're going to grill you a little bit here Meredith starting with the big one rank choice voting is too complicated what do you think? Look the voters who use rank choice voting they understand it they like it and they want to keep it it's really as simple as as, three, if I'm channeling my mic.

Well, enter Michael Jackson here. If you look at the evidence base, 95% of New York City voters say rank choice voting is simple. And this is a city where you have 200 different nationalities, you have ballots in five different languages. 95% look, this is is simple I understand it. 85% of Alaskans say the same thing and these are Americans who are mailing in their ballots many of them from from remote villages or communities. It's true also in places like Utah where you have 81% of Utahans who say,

rank choice voting easy. I understand it. I get it. And the reform is in 12 cities across that red state. Look, this is simple stuff. We rank things every day. And as Americans, we know our own minds. We know what we like.

So if your top choice in election has no chance of winning, it's simply knowing who you want to be your backup choice and marking your ballot if you want to, to reflect your preference. And then I think the last thing I would say is that, you know, for folks who think that's a great tool for folks who think that election reforms are complicated. There are best practices in things like voter education,

super important when you're rolling out a new election system. As well as ballot design, making sure that you're having a ballot design that is intuitive so that it's very natural for you to be able to go in and to mark your first and second and third choice if you want, in addition to hopefully the voter education that that election, that that locality would use in introducing these systems. Okay, but we're just getting started here. So still plenty of critiques to go through. Next would be that ranked choice voting tends

to result in spoiled ballots can cause delays, which at times can last weeks and often result in incorrect tabulations. All right. So gosh, which order should we go into? So let's spoil ballots or exhaustive ballots. Ranked choice voting actually makes more ballots count, not fewer. So if you are ranking a weaker candidate first, you can rank a backup choice and weigh in

between the frontrunners if your first choice is eliminated. In a single choice election, you're at a lock. If your first choice is not competitive, you don't have another choice to make. The error rates are low and on par with single choice elections. So for example, in Alaska Alaska 99.9% of RCV ballots cast there were valid. And if you look at just the track record of rank choice voting elections over the past 20 years, the, and I'd love for you to, I'm just going to call you on this Ari, if you could guess, what is the median overote rate for first round rank choice voting elections when you have three or more candidates? Any guesses? Sorry, just making sure I understand the

question. The median overvote rate when you have... go ahead. What is the overvote rate? So 0.15%. Wait, sorry, define overvote rate. What does this mean? So, it's one of the error rates that are counted, right? So, if someone goes into a ballot and they mark their first choice and they mark their second and third choice in that first column, that's known as an overvote rate. Gotcha. And so, the median overvote rate. Gotcha. And so the median overvote rate.

And that's 0.15% of the time that that happens. 0.15%. 0.15%. 0.15%, yeah. So, 1 out of 10,000 or so. Very low. Okay. So, not a whole lot of spoiled ballots for that reason.

I've read also that there have been ranked choice voting implementations that require voters to choose multiple options and that if they do not, their votes are thrown out. Any truth to that? Ranked choice voting as a reform and as an advocate for this reform, we would never require voters to rank their choices. That's not something that we would recommend. And in practice, voters, they rank the preferences where they're not required to. So they just want to rank their first candidate. Hey everybody, this is John, executive producer of YouTube and podcast content and co-host of The Daily Podcast.

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