Tangle - PREVIEW - The Sunday Podcast: Ari and Will talk tackling Tangle takes, reader feedback, and immigration with Mags and Jon.
Episode Date: February 2, 2025Please enjoy this preview episode of our Sunday podcast. The full editions are available exclusively for premium podcast members. To become a member, please go to tanglemedia.supercast.com and sign up.... In this episode, Ari and Will talk about tackling Tangle takes while Isaac is on paternity leave, reader feedback, the tragic accident involving an American Airlines flight and a military helicopter, and the importance of maintaining perspective in reporting. Then, Mags and Jon join to talk about the price of eggs, immigration and their personal stories, and play a trivia game about Tangle headlines. And last but not least, the Airing of Grievances.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Will Kaback, Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Transcript
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John, here's your customary 25 seconds of me just doing bullshit to cut out. Coming
up, Will and I sit down. We talk about what's been going on the last couple of weeks, what
it's like filling Isaac's shoes, flight of deportees to Columbia, then Magdalena and John join us to talk about eggs, immigration, play some games, grievances, more egg talk.
I think you'll like this one, guys. It's egg-cellent. This is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening.
This is Ari Weitzman, Tangle managing editor and temporary lead co-host of the Sunday Podcast,
joined for the first time by Sunday Podcast co-host Will K. Back. How you
doing, Will? Doing great. Very happy to be here in the co-host role. Yeah. First
time, long time first time, I guess. We've had you on the show before, but now we're
getting to get you a little bit more airtime with our readers. This was
something that we're discussing a little bit behind the scenes just to give everybody a peek behind the Tangle curtain.
We have a pretty broad, diverse staff.
So Magdalena co-hosted last week.
John is our EP.
Both of them are going to be on later.
We have a bunch of people on our associate editorial staff who we want to hear from.
But we think that having Will here
makes the most sense to add, since he's the next most
senior of our editorial staff and plugged into the day's
coverage day to day with Tangle.
And you know, you can tell us stuff that I'm missing.
So let's start with Will, who are you, where are you,
what are you up to?
I'm in Brooklyn in let's start with Will. Who are you? Where are you? What are you up to?
I'm in Brooklyn in New York and in my apartments where I work out of and do a lot of my tangling.
Yeah, I mean, I've been in tangles since April 2023. That's when I started technically kind
of in a volunteer role at first helping with research. And then that was the time where
things were happening
really fast at Tangle and we were growing really quickly.
So it was opportune and I was able to kind of jump
into a more full-time role after a few months
and here we are.
Maybe you want to tell the story that Phoebe Isaac's wife
hates about how you got involved with Tangle
in the first place.
Yeah, this is a fun story.
I'll keep it as abbreviated as I can.
But when I moved to Brooklyn after graduating from college
in 2020, I moved here in early 2021.
I had been a Tangle reader for over a year.
I'd been put onto it by a friend in the Ultimate Community.
And when I was walking back to my apartment on a weekend day
about a month after moving in, I heard a voice that I recognized
right outside my building, and I looked over, and it was Isaac Saul,
who I recognized from listening to him on the podcast
and seeing him on Twitter and following Tangle,
and introduced myself.
He likes to call it the first time that he was ever recognized publicly,
his first kind of celebrity moment,
which I think is the part that Phoebe doesn't like.
So, yeah.
But, you know, we got to know each other a little bit.
We grabbed a drink one time, you know,
we'd see each other and say hi on the sidewalk,
but my relationship with Tangle was a rear
for, you know, a couple years after that still
until we reconnected and turned into this opportunity,
which has been quite a dream.
So sometimes dreams don't have parts of them that you remember.
Other times they have parts of them that you wish you could forget.
This last couple of weeks for us, you and I have been working a lot of it over time
trying to make sure we're not ruining Isaac's life's work and getting the news to people in the way
that they've expected to hear it in Tangle.
In that time, I know I have answers to these questions,
but what are some things that you've
gotten from that experience?
What are some constructive things, maybe,
that you've heard from readers and some less constructive
things you've heard?
Yeah, I know you mentioned it on the podcast last week,
but the appreciation for Isaac's role as the face of
Tangle and somebody who puts his perspectives out into
the world into an increasingly growing audience every day.
I've always been impressed by that,
getting to work with them closely,
but when you're in that position and you're in those shoes,
you do feel the weight of it when we
publish the newsletter every day and you know that you have
an opinion going out into the world
to hundreds of thousands of people.
So my respect for that work and his ability to
build up to that point and get us here
is just deepening as we continue to do this.
I think the feedback from readers has been really
constructive and positive and
meaningful to me in a lot of ways.
You know, yesterday I thought there was some great feedback to the take that I
wrote about Trump's immigration orders, where a few readers wrote into the staff
inbox and left some comments on the website about, oh, you know, you're
essentially telling us in this take what we know from public polling, things that
we know from just watching the election and seeing what the results were and hearing Trump on the campaign trail.
But what's the veracity of the claims that Trump is making about immigration?
Is there truth to these claims that immigration is negatively affecting all these facets of
American life and kind of asking me to peel back the layers a bit more and saying that's
more what they look to tangle to?
So that's really helpful feedback for me when I think about how I approach these topics
on a day-to-day basis when I am offering my opinion or my
analysis. And I think that that feedback has been offered in a really respectful way. So
I've appreciated that a lot in particular.
What about, I mean, I think we've tried to be balanced as much as we can. I think already
we're starting to skew a lot towards pro Isaac balance personally. I think maybe later we'll have to have some stories that defame him a little.
But on the other side of the balance spectrum is like the more frustrating parts of stepping
into that role. Like I said, you listened to Sunday podcast last week, you know some of those things
for me. But what about for you? What are some of the things that have been dragging you down? Yeah, I think there's the sense of I'm not Isaac, you know,
and I'm stepping in.
Which is good, as I just said.
Right, right.
But in the sense of he's the one who started this
and is really responsible for getting it to this point,
and all of a sudden I'm just stepping in
after this has all been created.
I've had a role in that, obviously,
as somebody who works on the editorial side
and works on other parts of the business,
but Isaac is the face and he's the founder
and this is his brainchild and his baby.
So there's a bit of an imposter syndrome,
no doubt, that comes with that.
And I think when feedback comes in that is critical,
but it's leading with, oh, I just wish Isaac was back,
or oh, I can't wait until Isaac is back
so that we can get through whatever this subpar analysis
that you're offering is.
That hasn't been widespread, but it has happened,
and that feeds into that sense of,
is this something that I am qualified to do
and something that I should be doing,
and is this right for the direction of Tangle?
But I do think that by
and far the positive and constructive feedback has outweighed that and made this transition
and this momentary period that we're in feel a lot more fulfilling.
You know, interestingly, the note that you had about imposter syndrome, I had a good
piece of feedback from a reader just this morning about how she felt that
the way that we were positioning ourselves was a little bit too much throat clearing,
I guess you could say.
Another reader last week put this more succinctly and said that I was positioning myself as
the authority on California wildfires just because I lived in California for four years, which made sense reading it from his perspective.
From our perspective, it was saying, Ari lived in California for four years.
He has this environmental studies background, spin through some experiences with wildfires
based on the people on the staff.
He's a person who has a connection who we want to try to push forward today.
But the way it reads to people is this is a person who's an expert on this subject.
So I know that, you know, reflecting for me, if I'm thinking about as somebody, I grew
up in Pittsburgh, like that's my hometown.
If somebody said, yeah, I lived in Pittsburgh for two years.
I'm the expert on Pittsburgh.
Let me tell you about it.
I would have certainly been bristled.
So there's a way that we can go too far and say, in our desire to try to explain why we should
be listened to, we can position ourselves as people in ways that we're trying not to,
which is helpful.
I had another reader tell me that in our coverage on overviewing Biden's presidency, which is
an enormous thing, covered a lot of ground. He told me that we
admitted the school closures during COVID and Biden's last
round of stimulus checks, which arguably, I think I'm convinced
of this, I know it's still debatable, but arguably spurred
on inflation in a way that was more harmful than if those
checks had not been issued, which is a valid criticism
even if it's something you disagree with and it was something we omitted.
So that kind of feedback that's checking blind spots even in something that's that large
is really helpful and I hope that keeps coming.
But speaking of checking blind spots, big week, a lot of stuff happening, a lot of things
we can't go over, we just haven't
had time to yet. Other things that are a little bit outside of our purview. I think the big
news today, we're recording on Thursday, January 30th. This comes out on Sunday. So I'm sure
we've learned things between the time that we're saying this and the time that people
are listening to it. But the big thing in the news right now that we haven't gotten a chance to cover
is this crash in DC outside Reagan of a jet liner
that collided with a military helicopter.
Worst aviation disaster in the US since, I think, 9-11,
at least since 2009.
Big tragedy, something that we're still learning more about.
Not a really left or right thing right now.
I'm sure it will become one in some way, but something that we haven't had a
whole lot of time to get into, but something I think we should address.
Uh, that was a very short summary of it.
I don't know if there's anything more that you think we
should be saying about it, Will.
Uh, I think we don't know a ton more right now. I think what we have heard today
from officials is that they don't believe anybody survived either in the
helicopter or the plane that collided. So almost certainly going to be I think
the deadliest aviation disaster in the US since 9-11. That's what the the
leading newspapers are having in their headlines right now.
But I think that it's also okay to just leave it there and say there's a lot we don't know. There's obviously video of the crash and there's a lot of speculation. We heard some of it during
the press conference today at the White House. We heard some of it in the press conference just
last night that the DC mayor held. But it's going to take a while to get answers.
And honestly, it feels like the best thing we can do right now is just allow the people
who are working on that to do their jobs.
And that's what we'll do.
I'm just going to share a little bit of factual information about it for people who are maybe
hearing about this for the first time.
This happened very early or actually very late last night on Wednesday, news came out more.
So this morning it was an Army Black Hawk helicopter that collided with an American
Eagle passenger jet.
Thankfully, a relatively small one.
There were 60 passengers on board, four crew members, three service members aboard the
military helicopter.
We have been told that that was a training flight.
And this was an accident that, as you said,
we're going to learn more information about. From what we are hearing preliminarily, it seems like
the airline was on a path that it was meant to be on and that this was some sort of mistake
for the trajectory of the Blackhawk. We're not sure exactly where the mistake came from,
but that's about what we know right now. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.
Paradise is an all-new series set in a serene community
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in the field, and well beyond.
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We prepare you to change it.
Plus, Algoma has the most affordable tuition in Ontario.
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Isaac's really good at very poor transitions
and he thinks they're great.
He's very ham-fisted about them.
So speaking of flights,
something that came out last week in the news, this
reader question that we answered was about the flights from the US of deportees to Colombia.
A little bit of background, I'm going to ask you to color in the blanks that I'm missing
here was that the US has been saying since Trump
took office that they're going to be deporting people who are in the country illegally.
They started to do that both through means, not just aviation, but they started to do
that with flights to Central and South America.
There's one flight that went to Brazil where there were reports of people who were treated inhumanely. We'll come back to that a little bit later.
Aboard a civilian jet. The jets that were sent to Colombia were military jets in route from the US
to Colombia. The Colombian president, President Petro, said that he demanded the deportees be treated with more respect, refused
their clearance to land.
They were rerouted back to the US.
And then at that point, they were put...
This is where maybe you can help with some of the details, Will.
There were Colombian flights, Colombian military planes that came to get them from the airfields in
the US and then send them back to Colombia.
Is that right?
Right.
That's correct.
Yeah.
And we got reader questions that were pushbacks to the way that we frame this and the quick
hits saying that Trump, after the refusal from Colombia, from President Petra said that, I'm going to stick 25% tariffs
on you, maybe up to 50% if you don't accept these people.
We framed it or implied that Trump's pressure caused the Colombian president to cave.
A lot of readers said you shouldn't imply this was a win for Trump.
The Colombian president actually got what he wanted.
The people on the flight, the deportees were treated with more respect.
They were boarded on a civilian or an aircraft from Colombia and then sent back to Colombia.
So there's bluster, but Trump was irresponsible in the way that he practiced diplomacy and
the Colombian president got what he wanted.
So actually Trump didn't win here.
And they said that's an unfactual.
We kind of pushed back a little bit
on the way that that was framed.
You wrote the reader question answer to that.
So why are we right is the question.
Well, I think what is missing from some of that feedback
that we received that was pushing back
on how we characterize it is that
by every account that we have, both from the White House and Secretary of State Marco Rubio and also outlets
like CNN, Columbia granted authorization for these flights to take off. When they were in the air,
they were abruptly revoked. So this was not an instance of the United States aggressively sending these
planes with deportees without authorization, and Columbia realized what was happening and all of a
sudden, you know, scramble in to try to get the United States to back off. It was something that
in the immediate moment was instigated by Columbia in this decision to pull the authorization while
the planes were already in the air.
So that's one area that we push back on in the reader question.
In terms of the exact framing in this quick hit, we were trying to position it, I think,
chronologically of this authorization was denied, the planes came back, Trump issued
these threats, he threatened tariffs and sanctions.
After that, Columbia said, okay, yes, these flights can come back or these deportees can
be sent here and the flights proceeded from there, albeit in Colombian military planes.
I think for people who are on the right or who are supportive of Trump, they would say
this was an unambiguous win because not only did the deportations continue as scheduled,
but we didn't even have to use our own planes, right?
So how could this be construed as a win for Columbia or for President Petro?
I definitely see the perspective that the humane conditions and the humanitarian concerns
that he expressed were addressed by sending their own planes and being able to handle
their own people.
So that's fair. I think that this would be really interesting for us to have explored perhaps as a standard edition if it hadn't been such a news-packed week and we could have touched on that nuance a bit more.
But I do feel like we framed it accurately just in terms of the chronology of the events for the purposes of a one-sentence quick hit.
I have a bit of a theory about why people see this differently,
depending on where they're at.
I think if you're on the right, you can easily say,
and justify the means here, and the deportees were deported.
So what's the big problem?
But if you're on the left, I think
there's this detail that people have been focusing on,
which is the handcuffs detail.
I haven't seen reports that tell me exactly how many people were handcuffed.
Other outlets are saying shackled.
I don't know, like hands, so wrists and ankles bound.
I don't know how many people that applies to.
I don't know really what it looked like.
The pictures that we've seen, you can see some people that do have handcuffs
from the first flight, but it's pretty sparse, the details.
The details we have of the second flight,
however, very clear, which is everybody getting off
of that flight, none of them were in handcuffs.
So if you're looking at those two images,
you see handcuffs, no handcuffs, that's a win for Columbia.
Right.
I mean, is it that simple?
I mean, I think that if you're honing in on that,
you're probably more focused on wanting to deny Trump
any kind of victory in this sense,
or you wanna take away from the broader arc of this story.
I personally feel like that we ended up in the same place as we were
going anyways is the dominant part of this story. And I understand again why people might fixate on
that. And it is obviously a big concern of how these deportations are being carried out. But when
I just look at the story, I say, okay okay the deportations were temporarily temporarily paused they came back
And then they were sent off again, you know with really like no sweat off our back other than Trump got to issue a bunch of threats
And we didn't have to use our own planes anymore
So I don't know that feels like getting lost in the weeds a bit and more fixated on Trump than like what actually happened in this story
There's an aspect here of the story
that sort of stuck with me.
This is gonna be a little like, I don't know,
insensitive perhaps, but I'm just gonna respond
to some of the stuff that I saw from the Brazilian flight
that had those reports of potential
or alleged inhumane treatment.
Yeah. I'm gonna be quoting from an article from the New York Times from around this time,
which starts by saying, quote, temperatures were rising inside the plane.
88 Brazilian deportees, most of them handcuffed and shackled, were getting restless on Friday
under the watch of US immigration agents.
The passenger jet, dealing with repeated technical
problems, was stuck on the tarmac in a sweltering city in the Amazon rainforest. Then the air
conditioning broke. Again. There were demands to stay seated, shoving, shouting, children crying,
passengers fainting, and agents blocking exits, according to interviews with 60 porties aboard
the flight, who were deported, who presumably, and this is me jumping to some conclusions here, went
through a lot of hell to get to the US in one way or another, especially if they crossed
the border in an unauthorized illegal way.
That almost definitionally implies that they went through some serious shit to try to get
into the US.
The conditions that they probably had to brave in order to get to the country,
pretty severe, presumably, at least for some. On the way out, this sounds like a passenger flight that a lot of us have taken before, to be frank. Like I'm on the tarmac for too long, the air
conditioning is breaking, children are crying, I'm not allowed to stand up and use the bathroom, this sucks. The
standard American passenger jet experience is inhumane treatment to
people who have gone through hell to get here. I think that probably says more
about our standards for aviation quality than anything else. And again, maybe
that's like a little snarky and cruel and like a cheap joke, but I don't know. I
think that's a that's at least a little funny.
Yeah. I think it's totally fair to point out
that separate issue of, hey,
we've gotten used to some pretty terrible treatment
across the board when we fly commercially.
I think that the context in which this is happening,
it definitely pulls at the hard strings and I
definitely responded to that story as thinking,
wow, this sounded like a nightmare.
And probably there are some differences there
between the kinds of travel nightmares
that you or I might have experienced, of course.
Getting on a flight that you've been forced
by the authorities to be on against-
And there's marshals who are overseeing you,
and it sounds like maybe forcing people not to move around
as this is going on, there are differences there.
But yes, I mean, as we talked about in the edition
on Wednesday about the immigration orders,
this is an extremely tense and heated issue
and it's only going more in that direction.
And stories like that just add fuel to the fire.
And I do think that there should be scrutiny on the conditions in which these deportations are taking place. And
honestly, this new executive order about sending 30,000 migrants to Guantanamo Bay now,
I think these humanitarian concerns are not going away. And then this is just like a taste
of what that debate is going to be like. Yeah, that's true. I think I'm just trying to level set here.
As we go forward, we're gonna keep getting reports
about inhumane treatment.
30,000 people to Guantanamo sounds like,
I mean, when I read that,
the only thing I could say was holy shit.
I know that's like insufficient,
but there's no way that all of those people
are gonna be detained in Guantanamo in a way
that's completely above the board.
By the time they get there in transit first and when they're there and being held, that's
a famously, famously questionable place.
But at the same time, at the same time, as we're taking these stories and we're reading
about them and we're on high alert for mistreatment, I think we still really should be careful not to say everything's a nine out of 10.
Because if something actually does become a nine out of 10, it's just going to be part
of the stream and going to be washed away.
And I think like this story about the people being deported on civilian flight, on the
civilian jet to Brazil
experiencing an uncomfortable layover, I think that's a five out of ten.
Honestly, deportations in general is something that's gonna be,
like that is already a very controversial item and that's polarizing.
You could say just the fact that it's a deportation brings this floor up to a seven. Okay, let's say of the people who are being
deported then, knowing that that's something that you have an immoral
concern with or you're concerned that it's just generally immoral and it
knowing that, let's try to couch these treatments in a way that is going to at
least have some standard in it so that that way when there's a story of somebody whose bus breaks down or isn't allowed to use the bathroom,
we can say that that's kind of shitty. They should let those people use the bathroom, but we don't
say this is a violation of the Geneva Convention and Trump is being a total fascist pig here when
there are going to be times that that happens. And if we say all of that stuff now,
you're just gonna be using the same words.
And it's not gonna happen.
And realistically, these things happened
when Biden was president and when Obama was president.
And there's just a magnifying glass.
Yeah, I mean, I would be highly skeptical of anyone
claiming that this is the first time
that there has been an incident during a deportation flight
or transportation like this.
So I agree, I mean, that's the challenge, right?
That's the challenge,
just keeping things in perspective and level settings.
So I think it's helpful to kind of establish that framework
for how we think about these stories
and just understanding that it's gonna be a long process.
It's like the kinds of goals that have been set out,
whether they're realistic or not, they can't happen overnight. And this is going to be an ongoing effort for Trump's entire
term. So keeping things in perspective is quite important.
We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.
Paradise is an all-new series set in a serene community inhabited by some of the world's
most prominent individuals.
But this tranquility explodes when a shocking murder occurs and a high-stakes investigation
unfolds.
Starring Sterling K. Brown, James Martin, and Julianne Nicholson, Paradise is now streaming
only on Disney+.
At Algoma University, your future has no limits.
Here, you can go further, in the classroom, in the field, and well beyond.
We provide personalized education, cultural fluency, and training for in-demand careers.
We don't just prepare you for the future, we prepare you to change it.
Plus, Algoma has the most affordable tuition in Ontario.
Make the most of your university experience.
Go further.
Apply to Algoma University today.
Another effort that's gonna be present throughout Trump's term is the price of eggs.
So we're going to bring on some of our coworkers here.
Meg Delaney Bikova, our head of things, everything that isn't production or head of things that's
not production or editorial is going to join us along with our executive producer John law to talk about
Do the John law and good old John law Johnny law talk to us about the price fags and and
Immigration here, so let's bring those guys in
eggs
John mags they're too expensive or no
Mags, why don't you go first? You have an experience.
Okay.
So, yeah, I had quite the shell shock recently.
I'm sure everyone has.
Come on.
Shell shock.
Oh, brother.
Naturally.
But yeah, we eat eggs.
I have two kids.
My kids love them.
I went to the grocery store. There are only two options of eggs and
the cheapest egg carton was $8.89 for caged eggs. And again, I live in Oregon, so this is different.
I feel like we're on the high spectrum because we have these bougie, bougie laws, right?
Surrounding our eggs.
But I ended up buying the organic eggs, which is what I usually
do. A little bit bougie. And it was $12 for my carton of eggs. And it just, it's wild.
It's a racket. And I went off on our group Slack message, I think late at night, just
how upset I was about this. So.
I know Will has some treat bombs on this because he did the research,
but I want to get a good John's take first on whether eggs are super expensive right
now. I mean, is there a debate? Yeah. Actually the hot take. Okay. Does anyone have a, sorry,
I just want to say anyone has a higher toll, more than $12 per garden. No, okay.
Although 18 eggs, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Just to clarify.
That didn't pass you. Yeah.
I think I think eggs are expensive relative to what we've experienced in the past five years.
Right? So like even just two or three years ago, eggs were,
I think a dozen eggs were like 250 or something like that,
maybe even less.
So to walk into a grocery store and to get like, you know,
basic eggs, not organic, not cage-free, just basic eggs
at $4.20 or something like that, you're feeling it.
But I think, like even here in Colorado,
I think we have some laws that are similar,
but I haven't noticed eggs that are wildly more expensive,
something that like maybe six, seven bucks,
but nothing like 12 bucks.
You know, the eggs are currently at a high.
I think that's spiked.
People are upset about it.
My hot take when Mags posted this in the Slack was,
eggs aren't expensive right now.
They've just always been stupid cheap.
And my guy, Will, backed me up with the numbers.
Will, here's your cue to back me up with the numbers. Will, here's your
cue to back me up with the numbers. Yeah this was a little bit of a silly detour
slash procrastination during work but I just think we should say like they're
high right now because of the bird flu ostensibly and so I think we can
reasonably reasonably expect them to come down if and when that is handled.
So Ari's take prompted me to just think about, well, how much does the nutritional value
of a single egg compare to comparable food that you might have? Hey everybody, this is John, executive producer of YouTube and podcast content and co-host
of The Daily Podcast.
I hope you enjoyed this preview of our Sunday podcast with Ari and Isaac.
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If it's not the right time for you to sign up, please don't worry.
Our ad-supported daily podcast isn't going anywhere.
But if it is in your ability to support by signing up for a membership, we would greatly
appreciate it.
And we're really excited to share all of our premium offerings with you.
We'll be right back here tomorrow.
For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Wall signing off.
Have a great day, y'all.
Peace. signing off. Have a great day, y'all.
Peace.
Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by John Wall. The script
is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will K. Back, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady.
The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bacopa, who is also our social media manager.
Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.
If you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website.
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