Tangle - PREVIEW - The Sunday Podcast: Isaac, Ari, and Jon talk about birthright citizenship.

Episode Date: December 15, 2024

Please enjoy this preview episode of our Sunday podcast. The full editions are available exclusively for premium podcast members. To become a member, please go to tanglemedia.supercast.com and sign up. In this episode, Isaac, Ari, and Jon talk about "Karens" and the whether we should appreciate them or not. They also discuss birthright citizenship, with Jon sharing his personal immigration story as a second-generation American. They talk about the complexities of assimilation and the immigrant experience. And as always, the Airing of Grievances.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here. Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon Lall. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75. Our newsletter is edited by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, Will Kaback, Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Timothy Chalamet transforms into the enigmatic Bob Dylan in A Complete Unknown, a cinematic captivation that explores the tumultuous life of a musical icon. This mesmerizing film captures the essence of Dylan's rebellious spirit and his relentless pursuit of artistic innovation. From the director of acclaimed films Walk the Line and Logan, this extraordinary cinematic experience is a testament to the power of music and the enduring legacy of a true visionary. Watch the trailer now and secure your tickets for a truly unforgettable cinematic experience. A complete unknown.

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Find comfort this season with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp.com. As a FIS member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month, every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. I want to keep saying blood and soil, but Ari warned me not to, so blood and soil. Rightly. I'll say, yeah, just to try to get you to not accidentally chant Nazi slogans, I think, is me doing my job. But I think-

Just really quick, just sorry. I just Googled blood and soil and the first thing that comes up is blood and soil is a nationalist slogan expressing Nazi Germany's ideal of a racially defined national body. Yeah, my bad. I'm sorry. I was just having a good time. Jesus. I'm a Jew. I don't support Nazi Germany. Come on. All right. Maybe we'll call that a put that at the beginning of the video. Yeah. Coming up, we talk birthright citizenship. I say blood and soil maybe one or two or three too many times before I realize what I'm saying.

We talk about the Karen debate and then some very good games and grievances. It's a good one. We're joined by John Law. You guys are going to enjoy it. From executive producer, Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul. And on today's episode, I'm being joined by Ari Weitzman,

our managing editor, and John Law in the chair today. Tangles a trusty podcast producer and sometimes co-host. Well, kind of always co-host. Now, John, how you doing, man? I'm doing great, man. How about you? I'm good. I'm glad to have you here. Ari, you're hanging in there. You look super Vermont today, Ari. I wish people could see your outfit. Well, I guess that's up to John then if he wants to share any of my extremely low quality video with our watchers online. But yeah, it's a nice cozy day up in Vermont, very sunny and a crisp 20 degrees outside in Burlington. So perfect winter day. How would you describe the sweater you're wearing? What's that pattern called?

It's called Peruvian Etsy, I guess is the way to describe it. I've seen probably every time I go out to anywhere that's kind of trendy in any city that I'm visiting, I see like early thirties, late twenties woman wearing this exact sweater. Like I think I saw two or three people wearing this exact pattern in Bend, Oregon when we visited for our team retreat. Would that be considered a Fair Isle sweater? I don't know what that means.

All right, I'm gonna say it's a Fair Isle sweater. And I would also say where I'm from, we would call that a Cosby sweater, but that doesn't really hold well down. Yeah, to just paint the picture, the reason I asked what the pattern is, cause I'd love to describe to our audience why I said that, which is just that

it's Peruvian Etsy sweater, beautiful, like maroon wool knit hat, and a half grown in beard, which is just like chef's kiss Vermont to the T. So Ari's killing it today. Walk in the walk. Yeah. Sometimes you acclimate to the place you go and sometimes you go there because you're already acclimated. So I'm 50-50, I think. I love it. All right. Well, we brought John in today for two very important reasons. One is because he now lives in Fort Collins, Colorado, and there's a very nice Karen debate that happened

on the internet that we want to talk about, and the story is from Fort Collins, so it felt appropriate. And two is because we talked birthright citizenship in today's newsletter on Thursday and John has an immigration story and we want to talk shop with him about it. I'm trying to get his perspective and insert it into the convo from the Tangle team. So I'm curious to get his thoughts. So if you've got one complete nonsense bullshit segment with John and then one really serious personal one. So we'll start with the nonsense.

Uh, how do we describe this video? I guess what's like the best. Basically somebody tweeted a thing that said, we don't hate Karen's enough. This was actually at the end of November. So it's a little dated, but it's been in our show notes for a while. And we're finally getting into getting to it. And then the caption says, watch as one tries to lecture and stop a person with a service dog from enjoying a walk in Fort Collins. And the conservative

pundit, Matt Walsh, retweeted the video with a counter take, which was actually, we don't appreciate Karens enough. Some people think they can just do whatever the hell they want and break any rule they want. Dog owners in particular seem to think they're imbued with the mystical right to bring their dogs anywhere and everywhere all the time. They aren't. Even if you call your dog a quote unquote service animal, that still doesn't entitle you to bring your dog to any and all locations on God's green earth. Karens are the only ones with the guts to call these assholes out to their faces. I think that's great. Thank God for Karen's, aka middle-aged white women who don't have time for your bullshit. This was a divisive topic, both on the internet and amongst the Tangle team.

I have my views. I side with Matt Walsh. I have my views, but I'm going to let you guys go first. Ari, you want to share your thoughts on the Karen debate? You're a dog owner, so immediately, you would be excluded, dismissed from this jury pool just for the record? I am one of those dog owners that rolls my eyes when people bring their dogs into stores where they probably should not.

We recently had been going into Home Depot to get a lot of paint and primer for a home project. And we see two, three dogs every time we go in. Ar stays in the car where she can lie down and chill and not stress out and be a hindrance to us as we're trying to get lots of stuff for painting supplies. It sort of annoys me to have dogs everywhere all the time. It was also a problem when we used to live in San Francisco and even then, 2018 or so,

people just had this expectation you can bring your dogs into places. There's no way of ensuring that somebody's dog is a genuine service animal. You can just throw a jacket on somebody, but most of the time, the dog wasn't even wearing a label or any sort of vest that said service animal. You can just throw a jacket on somebody. But most of the time, the dog wasn't even wearing a label or any sort of vest that said service animal. People just have their dogs come in. They'd shit on the floor or pee. It had to become a thing where some baristas or just service workers had to clean up after dogs as part of their jobs, which sucks. It's also food establishments. that's kind of tenuous and if not just outright dangerous. I'm maybe protesting too much here, but that's a little bit of where I come from. I think I sort of lean the other way as a dog owner that,

like, come on, have a little bit of restraint. That said, this is an outdoor situation at a public park in Fort Collins. I do sort of similarly strain when I hear about comfort animal versus service animal and you're not legally required to answer questions of why do you have the service animal. So it's hard to enforce that, which is there's reasonable reasons for that being the case. Not all disabilities are visible, so I get that. But service animals are allowed in federal park lands on trails where any other dog is allowed. And in the city of Fort Collins, I'm pretty sure that you're allowed to have service animals in public parks. So I think technically the Karen's wrong here,

but I appreciate the work that Karen's do and the role they serve in our society in a way if we can get to that as like a secondary point. But that's my whole bit. Loser. No, I'm totally with you. About what? No, no, no, no, no, no. Follow up on that. What specifically then?

I also have some appreciation for the role Karen's play in society, I have to say. And when I first saw this video, I was totally on the side of the Karen and I completely thought she was in the right that this person was like bringing their dog, their quote-unquote service animal because I know a lot of people who have service animals. I'm doing air quotes and we know who you are. But it turns out that the people with the dog appear to actually be right that there is an exception for service animals in Fort Collins, which I didn't know when the initial video came out. So I guess that makes the Karen technically wrong, but like emotionally, I just think-

She's your comfort Karen. She's your emotional comfort Karen. Yeah. I don't like rats, like tattletales. Karen's who like call the cops or like, get me the manager. I don't like that kind of Karen. Confrontational Karen, who's just, like, telling you when you're being out of pocket. I like that Karen. I'm like, I've seen some older women who are just like, they see something and they say something.

And honestly, I'm with that. Like, speak your mind, you know. Don't call the cops. Don't be a tattletale. But like, I appreciate the Karens out there who are trying to hold people to a high standard of civil society. So, you know, we'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Recently, I felt like I was getting sick, but I downloaded Maple, an app that lets you see a real doctor on your phone in minutes, 24-7. You can even get a prescription if needed. So I quickly got to see the doctor, discussed my symptoms, and she prescribed medication. Starting my treatment earlier means I'm feeling

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forever. Watch the trailer now and get your tickets for a story that inspired generations. A complete unknown, only in theaters December 25th. ["Fort Collins Guy"] What do you think, John? You're the Fort Collins guy. I am. Kind of, like for a few months. Um... John Hates being called the Fort Collins guy. I am, kind of, like for a few months. John hates being called the Fort Collins guy. Yeah, definitely.

Definitely do. But to go back to what you just said, I feel like you just described the difference between like a New Yorker and a Karen. Basically, just somebody who tells it how it is and gives you the truth, not necessarily considering saying it the right way or whatever, just very bluntly, directly telling you,

hey, you can't do that, versus a Karen who's like, you can't do that, and I'm gonna get some kind of authority to tell you you can't do that, so I feel better about my judgment. So in this lady's case, I guess in her mind, like, sure. She's like doing the right thing or whatever, and trying to help other people who seem to be upset about this, but there's no one else around. It's literally her on the trail by herself.

And there is like a wide berth. Like she could just walk around, no problem. But she definitely took the time out of her day to fight for this, you know, imaginary group of people who are disturbed by this, I guess. I haven't watched the video in a little bit, but I feel like she said, like the dog's like being somewhere or something. And she's saying that that's gonna like kill the wildlife or I don't know,

there was some other element of it too where I was like, yeah, she's definitely right about that. Like, hell yeah, tell them to leash that dog up and put him back in the car. But, all right. To be fair, the dog's already leashed, but yeah. I was gonna say, yeah. Tomato, tomato. The person, the imaginary group she's sticking up for could include herself.

I think this is a thing that's really common amongst dog owners, speaking as one, that you can't imagine why somebody would be threatened by your animal, knowing it to be a lovely, personable animal. Whereas so many people have had different experiences with dogs. A lot of people have had very bad experiences with dogs or from cultures where dogs aren't seen as normal domesticated pets. It's extremely reasonable that this person would be like, I don't want to see. That's a sizable dog that this person has.

I don't want to see a dog in this park where I go to relax. That's a natural area that's supposed to be conserved even though we're on a path and the park sort of accounts for that. It's reasonable for somebody to say like, I'm getting annoyed. It's my space and I see all these dogs here. I'm downing probably as you're expressing Isaac that some of these dogs are legitimately service animals and you're not allowed to have your pet dog here. And that's true, but a service animal's different and it's a tough line to walk. There's a lot of really dumb internet, like genres of content,

but I watch all the Karen videos, I gotta say. If someone puts Karen in the caption of the video, I'm like, I got two minutes for this. I'll totally see what's going on here. So I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff. All right, well, speaking of dogs, we brought John on here for a reason. All right.

Come on, that's good. That's like top 10 for me at least. I think since this is a serious topic, I wanna give it a serious introduction. We wrote about the birthright citizenship issue in the newsletter today and talked about it on the podcast as we record this Thursday. I couldn't have really stated my conclusions, I guess, much clearer than I did, which is just like, I don't think this is a real thing in the sense that I don't think Trump has a chance to change

birthright citizenship precedent. Though, you know, I've been surprised before. I just feel like he has no real path. And I think he's on the wrong side of the argument. But unlike, you know, the Brian Thompson story that we covered earlier this week, I don't really have a super personal connection or like horse in the race here. You know, I'm not like a first-generation immigrant. I have a lot of family and friends on

the border and that sort of makes it relate to me in a specific way. But honestly, I think even most of them and even the ones who are here illegally, I don't think they're in as much of a threat because they have jobs and they have like established themselves here. And a lot of them are in the process of getting papers and it's just a little different. But there's a real story that could really impact a lot of people. As we were putting the podcast together, John messaged me and was like, Hey, I've got some thoughts about this. So I thought it'd be really interesting to give some space to that on the podcast. So John, I don't know the best way to introduce this, but maybe you could tell

our audience a little bit about your personal story and kind of what it was like for you and what you're thinking when you watch some of this unfold? Yeah. So I'm a second generation American, meaning my parents were first generation immigrants. They came here from my mom from India, my dad from Pakistan, they moved together to New Jersey. Both my brother and I were born and raised in New Jersey. So my parents, well, my mom has been back to India one time since she moved here, mostly for reasons that have to do with like affordability of traveling with an entire family back there. So she took me and my brother there when we were like, I was five, my brother was eight. And even then I just remember feeling, you know, like this is an entirely different world that I don't know or understand or feel connected to. When my parents decided to move

here, the idea was, you know, to, I think, like for most immigrants who come to the country, they want to give their children a chance at a better life, right? Or they want to just somehow, you know, make a way for a better path. And like most immigrant parents, my parents tried to Americanize me and my brother as much as possible. So they didn't teach us Hindi or Urdu, which my dad spoke. We didn't talk too much about our culture. We didn't talk too much about family culture. We didn't talk too much about

family members. It was just go to this American school and learn the language and play sports and eat McDonald's and do whatever it takes to fit in and acclimate so that you don't have to experience the things we did coming over here. My dad was a student at a theological seminary in New Jersey, was supposed to, wanted to be a minister, was supposed to be one, but couldn't find a church to finish his ministry. So, you know, he talks about that story, or he, you know, he's passed, but he talked about that story a lot about how it was difficult for him to find like a new home in America, but wanted it for us so badly. So I guess just as it relates to birthright citizenship, you know, I can't imagine what

it would be like if at this point, or even, you know, when I'm like 12, 13 years old, having gone to American schools and learned the language and, you know, fit into this culture, what it would be like to have to go to a, you know, a country that I don't really feel connected to or know anything about. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly. Get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians.

This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News. Stay in the know. CBC News. Timothy Chalamet transforms into the enigmatic Bob Dylan in a complete unknown, a cinematic captivation that explores the tumultuous life of a musical icon. This mesmerizing film captures the essence of Dylan's rebellious spirit and his relentless

pursuit of artistic innovation. From the director of acclaimed films, Walk the Line and Logan, this extraordinary cinematic experience is a testament to the power of music and the enduring legacy of a true visionary. Watch the trailer now and secure your tickets for a truly unforgettable cinematic experience. A complete unknown. Only in theaters December 25th. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think there's a couple of things come to mind. One is like, you know, I sort of mentioned this in the newsletter, but there is something really

bizarre happening here with people who are supporting the push to end birthright citizenship, where they're just not addressing the other half of the birthright citizenship question, which is like the ancestry part. So I use the example of Ted Cruz, who's born in Canada and his mom is an American citizen and his dad who was Cuban or is Cuban was Cuban. And, um, and he's considered more American than, you know, to these people, than, uh, someone who's like born in the country to two parents who have been here for 20 or 30 years, most of their lives only because those people don't yet have legal citizenship.

And like to me, that's just like in a vacuum, doesn't really pass a basic sniff test, I guess. The thing we didn't talk about in the newsletter that I think is more interesting is, or maybe also interesting is not so much the legal question, but the sort of morality of it, which is interesting. Like, and I don't know how you guys feel about it. I would say, I think the people who oppose birthright citizenship, the kind of blood and soil birthright citizenship we're

talking about, which is like, if you're born in the US, you're a US citizen. They see a weakness in the country by adopting this idea. They see like that to them means open borders. Somebody comes here, they don't have to be here legally. They don't have to have come here legally. They can have kids here and those kids get all the benefits of being American and that's it. And I actually understand that perspective. I think something that like splits me a little bit on this issue from the social conservatives is just like, I sort of feel patriotic about that in some way. Like I, to me, it's like, that's a cool feature of a country.

It's just like, it doesn't matter who you are or where you came from. Like if you are of the blood and soil of the United States of America, like you're an American baby. And I'm like, hell yeah. Like that kind of gets, that to me is like, I almost like put that up next to like, you know,

my AR and motorcycle, you know what I mean? I'm just like America, dude, like blood and soil. This is it. But for some reason, it just doesn't connect there for them, which I find kind of interesting and feels like something we didn't really get to explore in the newsletter at all today that I thought would be kind of fun to talk about. I want John to give you the space to respond, but I just want to jump in with something, which is like, there are two different branches, just

as a clarification of ways, paths to naturalization for citizenship or paths to citizenship. One is Jews Sanguinus, which is the right of blood, blood right, which is what the Ted Cruz case is. He is, his father is an American citizen that passes through. The other is Jews Suley, which is the right of soil. So if you're born here, that's birthright citizenship. So two different things.

And also that like, just like blood and soil is like kind of a nativist trope. So just to like... Yeah, it is. Careful. But that's what I'm saying though. Like, it is a nativist trope. And also, blood and soil is literally like, the legal roots of what encompasses the entirety of the birthright citizenship picture. And that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm trying to clarify is that it's actually one or the other. It's like

a birthright. It's like blood right or birthright. So it's not them both. It's like blood or soil. But we have, but we have both in the United States. Like we subscribe to a total birthright citizenship, which is that it is either blood or soil, but it's blood. Like the full encompassment of what we do in our country is blood and soil. That's what I'm saying is like, you're either of, like you were born here of the soil or you have a parent who's American and you're of the blood. And I just find it a little bit funny that in this sort of nationalistic culture, we don't take pride in that.

And there's a lot of that conservative socialism about America that I personally subscribe to and sort of gets my blood going. And I like that. And to me, that fits into my imagination and picture of American patriotism, but it just totally doesn't for the modern right. Or not totally. It totally doesn't for this faction of the right that wants to end birthright citizenship, which is interesting. But yeah, go ahead, John. Well, you know, it's funny, I was just thinking, you know, the other day that Ari had written this article, you know, what is a liberal? And I think a lot of these questions are coming up now, especially with the incoming administration. And now the question, another

question is, what is an American? And to me, you know, it's obviously precedent. It's well documented for, you know, 100 years, for over 100 years now. If you're born, you know, here, regardless of citizenship, as long, if you are sub, what is the line? It's like if you are subject to the jurisdiction. Jurisdiction, yeah. Of the United States. Right of the United States, right? Which everyone is, right?

If you break the law here, you are subject to the laws of this land or you're deported one way or another. You kind of accept that. And I think the people who come here accept that too. I don't think anybody comes here, however you want to phrase it, but I don't think anybody comes here illegally and doesn't know that they're not doing that. They come into this country knowing and fully accepting that this is breaking the law, but also this is the law of the land and this is the best path forward.

I think they come here with the best of intentions. I think most immigrants come here and they want to learn the language, they want to work, they are fine with paying taxes. They understand that they don't even get the full rights of being an American citizen, but are willing to do whatever it takes to be here to provide an opportunity for their children to grow up and be American citizens. I think if you're willing to do all that, you're kind of, in a sense, you're already swearing an oath

to this country. So I don't see a reason that makes sense to me, other than I get that right now there's an overflow of immigration. And so it kind of feels like this is a chance to cut it off almost like, you know, at the top to make sure that it doesn't keep happening. But I don't really see it as that. I see it as us changing the rules of what an American is.

Soterios Johnson I think the reason is if you fundamentally believe that this is an incentive to come to the United States, then it's worth ending. And now, I mean, as we're having this conversation, I'm like, I wish I also addressed that maybe in the newsletter today, but like, you have to, you have to be at the starting point where people are coming here to have kids, to like the quote unquote anchor baby, like that's sort of the derogatory term a lot of people use to describe this idea of like, oh, somebody comes here when they're pregnant or to have kids in order to get citizenship for themselves eventually,

because the hope is their children get citizenship and that helps fast track them in the immigration process. So you have to believe that that's a real incentive, I think, to then look at birthright citizenship and be like, this is a way to stop it. And maybe that's a disconnect for me too, because I don't buy that that's a real incentive at all. I think people come here for other reasons because they have family already here in their country.

Hey everybody, this is John, executive producer of YouTube and podcast content and co-host of The Daily Podcast. I hope you enjoyed this preview of our Sunday podcast with Ari and Isaac. We are now offering this podcast exclusively to our premium podcast members, along with our ad-free Daily Podcast, Friday editions, in-depth interviews, upcoming new podcast series, bonus content, and much more. If you want to receive all that and give your support to help us grow Tangle Media,

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For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Maul signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Take care. Peace. Take care. Peace. Elena Bakova, who is also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to reettangle.com and check out our website. ["Retangle"] As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month, every month.

At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. Timothy Chalamet reinvents himself again as Bob Dylan in A Complete Unknown, a riveting portrayal of the legendary artist's meteoric rise and groundbreaking journey. Witness the untamed spirit of a musical pioneer brought to life.

From James Mangold, the visionary director of Walk the Line and Logan, this powerful film celebrates the courage to create and the legacy of an icon who redefined music forever. Watch the trailer now and get your tickets for a story that inspired generations. A complete unknown. Only in theaters December 25th. System of a Down.

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