Tangle - Primetime

Episode Date: October 18, 2024

We spoke our undecided voters about the Democratic National Convention, Kamala Harris' first interview, and the debate between Harris and former President Donald Trump.The election is now 18 days away.You can⁠⁠⁠ subscribe to Tangle by clicking here⁠⁠⁠ or drop something⁠⁠⁠ in our tip jar by clicking here.⁠⁠⁠The Undecideds is a Tangle Media ProductionThis episode was written by Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Jon LallInterviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokowa, Will Kaback, Jon Lall, and Ari Weitzman. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Working in the trades is intense. It can be stressful and painful. Some guys use drugs and alcohol to cope. But when we ask for help, or we see someone struggling with addiction... Our silence speaks volumes. See how you can help, or get help, at Canada.ca slash ease the burden. A message from the Government of Canada. From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year.

Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. Based on

Charles Yu's award-winning book. Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world

beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like

to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney Plus. From Tangle Media and founder, Isaac Saul. And executive producer, John Long. This is The Undecideds. I'm Isaac Saul, and welcome to Episode 7 of The Undecideds. The 2024 election season has had many eventful moments. Arguably, the most consequential has been the elevation of Vice President Kamala Harris to the top of the ticket. While there

was some dissent within the party about this unprecedented move, ranking members, leaders, and delegates came together to formally nominate Harris at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago. Between August 19th and August 22nd, the most powerful Democrats gave their full-throated endorsement of Harris, with notable speeches from Barack and Michelle Obama, Bill and Hillary Clinton, Hakeem Jeffries, Pete Buttigieg, Gretchen Whitmer, and President Joe Biden, among many others. We were there at the United Center, and the energy in the arena could easily be compared to being at something like the Super Bowl. But was that energy reflected throughout the country? We spoke with our undecided voters about the DNC, Kamala Harris' first interview,

and the first and only debate between Harris and former President Donald Trump. The election is now 18 days away. Okay, so we're here again this week with Claire from Ohio. How are you doing, Claire? Yeah, I've been good. How are you? Pretty good. Getting into full swing in election season. Hope that you are feeling like you're staying sane. I'm trying, yeah. It's just like all of us. Did you get to watch any of the DNC from the past couple weeks? I saw the highlights. I saw a bit of Michelle Obama's speech.

And of course the moment with of Michelle Obama's speech. And of course, the moment with Governor Walz's son. But other than that, I didn't really tune in. Personally, I kind of feel like the DNC and RNC are just big parties. They don't offer much valuable, I think, to voters as far as watching them. So I did watch the recent Harris interview, but the DNC, I just kind of tuned out a little bit. I want to ask you more about the Harris interview in a second, but were there any things that kind of stuck with you from the rest of the DNC? I know you just said you didn't watch a ton of it, but any images or moments that kind

of were notable to you in any way? Um, I would say I thought it went pretty well for them. Everything was pretty expected, but listening to, I think the Michelle Obama speech, everyone kind of raved about it being good. And what I did see of it was very good. I was like, dang, kind of wish she would run, but I know she won't, but she'd be very good at it if she did um i mean other than that it was pretty much everything that was expected i feel like the campaign is kind of just running on memes and good vibes for as long as they possibly can um and i have to admit like the vibes are good but i as an undecided voter i obviously want to see all the other stuff more um but yeah they put on a nice show i guess

all right uh so let's let's talk about some of the other stuff then you mentioned that you saw harris's convention speech accepting the nomination so claire what did you think about harris's convention speech um i didn't see her full speech i saw the interview on cnn um okay i understand sorry about that you're good so let me re-ask then what did you of the moments that you saw from harris's speech were there any moments that stuck with you or that were memorable in any way um something that did and has been standing out to me, I guess, is that it definitely differs from past campaigns by Hillary Clinton and other female candidates, where I kind of expected her a little bit to emphasize the fact that it would be historic,

were she to win, to be not only the first woman, but first Indian woman, first black woman to be president. And I felt like she kind of de-emphasized that both in the speech and in interviews after that, which I think is kind of trying to appeal to undecided voters, moderate people who don't love the identity politics stuff. uh undecided voters moderate people who don't love the identity politics stuff and i don't know how i feel about that because i don't love the identity politics stuff but at the same time it's like she's clearly downplaying something that also could be a strength if i think approached right like obviously i don't think she should say something along the lines of vote for me because it would be historic to vote for me i i wouldn't go for that either. But at the same time, I think she could a little bit more own up to the fact that this is a part of her identity and people who do vote for her would kind of be a part of this story in history. So I don't think that necessarily would sway my vote either way,

but I thought it was interesting that she didn't choose to highlight that aspect. What do you think about Vice President Harris choosing Walls as her running mate? Does that impact your voting decision in any way? It definitely surprised me. I think like many people, I thought Shapiro was kind of a law. So when she picked Walls, I was like, I don't even really know who this guy is. Didn't have an initial like the pick or don't like it because I just didn't know much. And now that I do know a bit more, it's like I can see, again, the positive side culturally of him being America's dad. And he is very likable. I would agree with that.

I think he seems kind of like an everyman. But in terms of what he said and done, I think particularly the IVF IUI thing is pretty off putting to me because like when he speaks about his military service and says, oh, I just misspoke. I'm like, okay, maybe that's true. But he put that his wife and he used IVF on his campaign things when he was running for governor on his flyers that he mailed the houses. And I was like, that's not a mistake. That's you being actively misleading. And also using that kind of misleading narrative, I think, to mischaracterize the Republican argument. Because when he says, oh, no, like, I did use IUI, and then kind of uses that to say, oh, Republicans are trying to ban reproductive freedom. It's like, well, you're fundamentally misunderstanding why someone who's conservative or Republican would be opposed to IVF.

why someone who's conservative or Republican would be opposed to IVF. And I think when you're mischaracterizing your opponent's argument, either you don't understand it, and in which case you shouldn't be vice president, or you're trying to mislead voters, which I think is like, also, then you shouldn't be vice president. And that's just like one moment and one example. So if he has other policy positions as they come out that I really agree with, then that's not, it doesn't mean I'll never vote for him, but it does put kind of a bad taste in my mouth being like, yeah, you look like an everyman, but you're also being intentionally misleading, which most politicians do at one point or another, but it's definitely something I've taken note of. Zahid, thank you so much for joining us again. Sure. Pleasure to be here again. So I'm going to go back a little bit to the DNC, the Democratic National Convention. Did you happen to watch any of that? I did. I actually watched the entire week. I would, you know, turn it on as soon as

I got back home from work. So yeah, I pretty much watched the whole thing. Were there any speeches that stood out to you? Not really. No. I mean, it was all expected. Oprah was pretty good. Of course, Michelle Obama, Barack Obama, and Kamala Harris, like they all did a great job. I really was happy that I was part of the roll call. I think the roll call for me was like the highlight. I think that music and everything that was going on, I think it was really good. I'm assuming then you got to watch Kamala Harris's acceptance speech for the nomination. I did, yes. So what did you think of her tone and the message of the speech?

Yeah, she's very upbeat. She is very polished. You would expect, you know, she was a prosecutor, so she knows how to build narrative. She knows how to tell a story. And I think she tells a very optimistic, positive story. And I think that's what differentiates her from everyone else. But then again, there was no surprises. There was nothing, something that she said that was like, oh, okay, you know, what does

that mean? Or what is she trying to say? It was nothing like that. So it was very expected. It was, I think she was very articulate in her message. I think that's the takeaway I had. What did you think of the night before Tim Walls, her running mate, also spoke? What do you think about Tim Walls? What did you think about his speech? I think his speech was a lot more emotional. I think he comes off as very emotional. I think you would expect it to be the other way around, like Kamala Harris would be and he is very good at speeches and i think uh just the fact that he was able to talk in his speech everything about him like it made sense why she why she picked him and then again it's uh i'm sure there's a lot more going on

behind the scenes but at least uh the way he communicates, his body language, everything about his vibe, his attitude, everything about him is very upbeat. And I think we need that. And for that reason, I felt like, yeah, he was a great choice. I mean, the moment he started talking, he was quite good. So I think that's the takeaway I had from that speech. All right, Phil, welcome back. Great to talk to you again. We're just going to start. We've got a few topics to run through since we last spoke. We'll start with the Democratic National Convention, which took place a few weeks ago. Did you watch the DNC or how much of it did you watch and what were some of your main takeaways? I did watch the night that Kamala spoke. Basically, I did the same thing with the Republican conventions.

I wanted to watch the night in which the presidential debate spoke. I also happened to listen to J.D. Vance, but I didn't hear Waltz's speech. So I got slight bread. What did you think of the tone and message of Kamala's speech? Yeah. I think she accomplished what she set out to do. I think she's a good communicator. I think she sounds intelligent. She controls her emotions.

I think the whole convention that night, and I've heard the other nights as well, is excellent political theater. I think it's well orchestrated. I think it's carefully planned, and the message is brought on. And the main message is, I think, trying to say, we're competent, we're confident, we're calm, and not crazy. And Trump is a terrible, bad, ugly, no good guy. And that would be the worst possible thing that could happen to the country. I mean, the main message of the convention wasn't about the Democrats and what they offered, it seemed to me, as much as what would happen if Trump was elected. Do you think that Harris's messaging, have you noticed it change at all from Biden? Or do you think it really is just running back that same kind of messaging playbook just with a different messenger? And she's a different person, so she has a different ethos. And actually, she has some pretty big challenges to overcome. I think she does a better job exuding just a different feel for Trump.

But no, I mean, I think she would like to present herself as having the values, the best part of the Democratic Party, and that she's going to continue all the good things that Biden has done, and she's hard-pressed to criticize anything. In fact, in her review, she won't criticize anything that he's done, and she basically defends what they did as good, and they will continue to do it even more. So, backing up a little bit more, before the convention, need to do it even before. So, backing up a little bit more, before the convention, Harris announced Tim Walz, the Minnesota governor, as her running mate. Phil, what did you think of that decision? Does it impact the way you're thinking about the election at all? And how do

you think Walz has done since he was announced? I don't care for Walz much. I mean, he was a surprise. I didn't know about him. I don't find him particularly substantive. And when I get clear on the substance, I like him even less. But he does present a kind of image, which is why I think he was selected, which is Midwestern, kind of a good father, a kind man. So I think that's why he was brought on, for his ethos, not his substance. And I think in some ways it was a clever move,

but I would not want to see the day that he became the president of the United States. Nor do I think if Kamala is elected and she runs her two terms, I don't think there's any chance he's ever going to be the president of the United States. I don't think he's substantive enough and left to himself. He'll make too many mistakes in what he says. Okay, so this is Magdalena tangle interviewing brian from arizona did you watch any of the democratic national convention brian i did not it was not something that popped up on my radar um it's also something that highlights or anything or i've not had the chance to do that um even if it was even if i was more aware of it, the scheduling and the

life events that have taken place lately have been such that I have been pretty disconnected from all media, at least for the last week and a half. Just unfortunate life stuff that's kept me very occupied. So I'm not familiar with what took place down there. I don't know all the explicit details. Like, I wish I could. That's totally fine. We can switch gears again. I am wondering, what do you think about Vice President Harris choosing her running mate? Do you know much about him?

Would it impact your voting decision, Brian? I have not heard very positive things about the running i off the top of my head can't remember his name but um that also might be because i'm tired yes okay all right yeah the very midwestern names yeah so what i have heard has been very negative in terms of how lockdowns are handled in where he was operating and just the different support and the decisions that he's made in terms of, you know, you have the riots going on and how he what his role in all that was in certain riot areas and the way in his different stances on the classic issues like abortion and things like that. It's been on the whole very negative from what I've been hearing. I have not had the chance to do as much research on him yet, given life circumstances and all the rest. But from what I am hearing and from the

things that are popping up, it sounds like he might even be a little more to the left of the current running mate for the president, which if that's the case, would make me very concerned. Well, I was wondering because he was a school teacher for a number of years. And so I was wondering if that would move the needle for you at all. Cause he, he is, um, seemingly, you know, a little bit of older guy, retired U.S. Army officer, um, governor of Minnesota, school teacher, kind of like a regular guy is the um you know messaging that we're getting from from the camps i was wondering if if that impacted you in any way well if that's the case a regular guy quote unquote uh my suspicions are higher if that's the case only because how you would classify or how one might classify a regular guy, just the school teacher example, public schools are notoriously struggling. is going to hold to a particular worldview that is not very friendly to the worldview that I come from. In fact, antithetical, not just unfriendly, but hostile towards the worldview that I hold to.

So it's those average Joes who teach high schoolers about philosophy that I get very concerned about because the norm in today's world is through and through secular. Even the religiosity that comes out in our modern understanding of it is a thoroughly secular religion. And so, if normal is kind of the way that this particular guy is described, then it's a case where I'm definitely more interested to hear where he's at and what he believes, because normal is not that great of a sign for me personally. Diana, thank you so much for joining us again today. Thank you for having me. It's good to see you. Good to see you too. So, since the last time we talked, the Democratic National Convention was held. I'd like to get some of

your thoughts on that. Let's just start with the first question. Did you watch any of the DNC? I watched just kind of bits and pieces. I really didn't watch any of it live. I saw bits and pieces like the next day on the morning news, and that was about it. But I think they did a pretty good job of kind of covering everything. And of course, when I was on there, I was looking for you and Isaac, but I never saw you. and I was looking for you and Isaac, but I never saw you. We were there somewhere in the upper corner area, but we were actually fairly close to the stage, which was kind of exciting. Well, good. Did you get to watch any of Kamala Harris's acceptance speech? I watched a little bit of it, yes. Yeah, I did.

And what did you think of the tone of the speech? Did anything stand out to you? Nothing really stood out to me that much. I mean, I thought she did a good job. It was nice to hear somebody positive for a change. And I do think everybody needs to be cognizant of the fact that this is not something that she's been working on for the last three years. She's had like five or six weeks. So I think with everything, regardless of what you think, and I have to include myself in that, we need to give her a little bit of grace. But I thought it was fairly positive. I didn't think there was a whole lot of substance in there, but yeah, it was okay.

He nominated Tim Walz to be her running mate. What do you think about Tim Walz? You know, he gave a speech the night before. I don't know if you caught any of that, but what are your general impressions of Tim Walz as her running mate? I like the fact that he was a teacher. But I guess the way he has handled his military service, I do not like that at all. You can call it an exaggeration. You can call it misspeaking.

You can call it a lie or whatever. But I just feel like when people do things like that, there's other things that they've done that maybe haven't come out or that they're going to do in the future. And I just don't trust someone like that. And quite frankly, he is a little too progressive for me. So I wasn't really thrilled with him. He would have been, if it was up to me, he would have been my last choice. I would have liked to have seen Josh Shapiro or Mark Kelly. I would have liked to have seen one of the two of them. But anyway, that's who we've got. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year.

Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel

a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. With little time before the election and an electorate feeling justifiably curious about the expeditiously coronated nominee, Kamala Harris came under fire for seemingly avoiding the press. She put those criticisms to rest when she appeared on CNN for her first interview with Dana Bash. She was joined by her running mate, which had some questioning why she chose not to do the interview alone. Some of our undecideds didn't feel compelled to watch for reasons they will explain in these interviews, but those that did had strong opinions, particularly Phil, whose reaction was the

most surprising, even to himself. Did you get a chance to watch the CNN Dana Bash interview with Kamala Harris and Tim Walz? I did not know. That's something I skipped. The reason being, I just felt that that would be very scripted. I think they would have their talking points and they would just... Not that the DNC speech wasn't scripted, but I felt like when it comes to news media, I think they would have canned answers for most of the questions.

So I just didn't feel like that would help me understand anything more about her than I don't already know. I'm assuming you did not watch. There's a lot of talk about Harris and him doing their first CNN interview. I'm assuming, did you hear anything about that interview or watch it? I have seen some things, some commentary about it. It's something that I know I put in my little bookmark folders to address on my drive to work. That's where I do a lot of my listening is on my drive. I call it my mobile university. So I definitely have that on the list to consume. A lot of the

stuff has been interesting. I've seen a couple of clips here and there. And unfortunately, even people on my side, they like to just take a little frame and it's like, okay, if you would have gone back one second or let it play a second longer, the context could be entirely different. Instead of making her look like a ditz, maybe she's actually saying something meaningful. So a lot of the stuff that I've seen about it in terms of clips and footage hasn't really been as reliable as I would like, just from my understanding of how you can edit a video to say anything you wanted to say. Claire, what do you think about Vice President Harris and Tim Walz, their interview with Donna Bash at CNN? Yeah, I would say some of her answers, I felt like were good. Others of them were pretty unsatisfying. I think one that stood out to me was when Dana Bash was like, what caused you to change your position on fracking?

She's also recently changed her position on the border wall. And she was just kind of like, my values haven't changed. And we're like, OK, but why did you change the actual policy then? actual policy then? And she just didn't really provide an answer, which makes it seem like she's just changing her policy to appeal to more moderate people without kind of any backing for it. And I thought she could have come up with some explanation as to why she thought allowing fracking would be, even if she just said, I think allowing it would be good for swing states, more industrial states that rely on that in their economy. And I want to understand that this is people's livelihood. Something simple like that, I think, would have been a decent explanation rather than just saying,

oh, my values haven't changed, but my policies have. I can't explain why they've changed. haven't changed but my policies have I can't explain why they've changed um but I thought she did a good job at addressing like Trump's criticism of her um when she was like oh it's just you know the same thing and kind of dismissed it I kind of like that because she didn't kind of feed into I think it would push people like me and moderates away if she went on this thing about how um he's racist and evil and so she didn't want to alienate people who weren't decided but at the same time you know even addressing it substantively and giving more air time to questions about her identity she was like that's that's not um favorable either so i'm just it. And like, let's not talk about how he brought my

race into this. And I thought that was kind of a good move. But also, again, these are all like kind of cultural moves that she's making about how we handle social things, which is nice and appealing in some ways. But the policy is still like where is it she's barely introduced anything and so she just kind of I think didn't interview to keep the conservatives quiet they keep saying she hasn't done an interview um and she didn't really provide anything any more details which I guess is to be expected that's kind of what I anticipated going in um but nonetheless it's like still um kind of waiting on more information as well as like the interview was not long at all compared to Trump has been doing like three hour podcasts where if nothing else you get to know who the man

is over three hours of like barely edited podcasts whereas hers was like 20 minutes and it was chopped up with commercial breaks which makes it kind of like is it even is it edited uh i don't know because you didn't just show me the whole thing so were there any moments that you thought told you more about harris than what you had known or what you had thought going into it or was it mostly just picking up some of the what you called cultural social stuff? Yeah, I don't think I really learned anything more other than like the cultural social stuff. I was also interested to hear Governor Walz kind of explain the controversies around his military background and the IVF versus IUI thing. And so while I kind of got what I already knew from Harris, I hadn't heard from Walls basically at all. I didn't know much about him. And so it was interesting to hear him speak a little bit as well.

Did you happen to see any of the Kamala Harris and Tim tim wall's interview on cnn yes i watched the whole thing oh great okay do you have what were your thoughts on that well um again she didn't have a lot of time to prepare for this but um she really didn't answer anything and i think her biggest mistake when she was when she's and you, when they were talking to her about, like, the flip-flopping on different things on why her positions have changed over time. And I think it's legitimate that someone's positions can change because times change, you know, and sometimes, you know, as life happens, you just change your mind on things. And just the fact that she couldn't come up with anything other than my values haven't changed, you know, well, that's all fine and dandy. But, you know, your values, I don't want to say your values don't mean anything, but, you know,

that's not what's going to move this country forward. It's your action that's going to move the country forward. So I wasn't real thrilled with that. I don't think she did a very good job. I also don't think, I think they should have done her first and then maybe brought Tim Walz in. It almost looked like he was sitting there to rescue her because everybody was assuming that she would not do well in the interviews since she doesn't, you know, do them very often. So I think it would have been better if they waited to bring him in. But I wasn't very impressed with her interview at all. So moving forward to some more recent news,

Harris and Walz gave their first interview as the candidates this past week with CNN. Did you watch that interview or did you watch parts of it? I did. I watched it after the fact, but I've watched it and actually thought quite a bit about it because it was the first time that I think there was enough time to ask some challenging questions and hear the attempted answers. And so what did I think? I'm actually surprised by my response. I mean, you've heard us interact over all these how dead set against Trump I have been.

I am closer to voting for Trump than I have ever been in my life. Once I got through, I mean, I appreciate Kamala's ethos, and she's very intelligent and articulate, although I think she's trying to create a path that is very difficult. But her one phrase that I've been pondering is when she said, now, look, you have to understand, my values have not changed. And of course, she was using that to say, I may make certain political decisions about how best to implement those values. Now, this is her defense of why she's not, she's supposedly now not against tracking. But I've pondered that phrase, my values have not changed. And I've been thinking about that. And I found myself saying, you know, mine haven't either. And so, I began to think about, well, what are my values and how do they compare to Kamala's? And I said, you know, I still value protecting unborn human life more than protecting a person's freedom of choice

to end the life of a developing child. I mean, I still value freedom of speech, whether I agree with what a person says or not, more than the right of government to control what it calls lies or disinformation. I mean, I still value a justice of equal opportunity more than enforced equality of outcome, which seems to be the focus of most DEI initiatives. And I still value the right of parents to determine what sexual values will be taught to their children. And I consider the recent laws on the transgender rights of minor children that have been passed in Minnesota under Waltzific. I still value secure borders and legal immigration and what Biden

and Harris have done is allowed to get out of control. I still value freer markets and more limited federal government than we currently have and more than Kamala values them. And then I value fiscal responsibility. And this multi-trillion dollar debt that we are accumulating, for me, is the most dangerous thing economically happening. It's the root cause of inflation. And all either party can do right now, but especially the Democrat Party, is talk about how much more money they're going to spend. Presumably demand votes to help the middle class. So I'm sitting here. It's like what she said was meant to persuade me

that I could trust her. And what it's done is it's like, it makes me sick, honestly, to think of supporting the person of Donald Trump. But when the opposing party is running almost exclusively against the person, and their policies, when articulated, and they're not very clearly articulated, but when articulated, are kind of so nuanced. clearly articulated, but when articulated, are kind of so nuanced. And when I get down to the basic values that drive them, I'm so fundamentally opposed. For the first time since we've been interviewed, I'm this close to voting for Donald Trump, holding my nose and saying, I just can't support Harris and Walz.

They are even more committed to the values of a kind of progressive liberalism than Biden was. So what am I doing? Supporting them. So that's the effect the interview had on me. Yeah. Well, that's really interesting to hear. And I have a couple follow-up questions to that. One, it seems like it wasn't necessarily anything that they said specifically in the interview.

It's more so the thought that it led to you having that pushed you to this conclusion. So when you say you're this close to voting for Trump, is that hesitance? You're just not fully sure if you're willing to take that step? Or are you waiting to hear if there might be some policy shifts like we've seen them, you know, Harris shifting a bit more towards the center on things like immigration that could convince you that maybe it's not as a progressive platform as it seems, or kind of what is still there? That's a really good question. And I, of course, she's shifting to the center.

I mean, she knows if she doesn't, there's no chance of getting elected. But as she said, her values haven't changed. So she's only going to shift as far as she has to, say on fracking, to pacify and keep, help the center whole. thing about immigration until they started, you know, the governors on the border started shipping the immigrants into the cities and sanctuary cities started experiencing the problems that were experienced on the border. All of a sudden, all of America got concerned. And then you saw Biden moving. I think we're going to see the same, that there's no belief that anything's going to change. I don't think, so no, there's no policy

that I can even imagine her or Wallace coming up with. And there's no sign that there's anything but a well-articulated campaigning process where they're controlling the information and controlling the interviews. And I imagine the debate, it's going to be the same. I think I'm going to be more impressed by her emotional self-control and staying on topic. And I mean, the one thing I can count on Trump is I get the real guy. I may not like him.

So no, it really comes down to, can I take the risk of this person whose moral values and whose emotional maturity, or lack thereof concerns me deeply. Can I handle that to avoid the policy direction and drift that we're currently engaged in? Or do I want to stand up and say, look, I have to say I'm against this direction. And I'm actually closer to standing up and voting for Trump, partly because I think more people are going toward Kamala Harris. Not because of her policies, not because of what she's saying, she's managing not to say too much. It's because this very sophisticated political processing with a media complicit in it, where we're going to focus on the badness of Trump,

and that's all it takes. That's a problematic situation. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Working in the trades is intense. It can be stressful and painful. Some guys use drugs and alcohol to cope. But when we ask for help or we see someone struggling with addiction, our silence speaks volumes. See how you can help or get help at Canada.ca slash ease the burden. A message from the government of Canada. A message from the backdrop of their family history.

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It's the first cell-based flu vaccine authorized in Canada for ages 6 months and older, and it may be available for free in your province. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur, and 100% protection is not guaranteed. Learn more at flucellvax.ca. On September 10th, Kamala Harris and Donald Trump met on the debate stage for the first and only time. The debate was hosted by ABC and moderated by David Muir and Lindsay Davis. After a demoralizing debate that ended the candidacy of President Joe Biden,

millions of Americans, including our undecideds, tuned in with peak curiosity to see how Harris would handle the unpredictable former president. So, Claire, a couple questions about the debate for you. First, did you watch the debate between Harris and Trump last night? I did watch the debate, yeah. Do you have thoughts about the debate between Trump and Harris?

I do have thoughts about the debate. It was definitely interesting. It did actually make me feel both better and worse about Harris I think because I feel better in the sense that I think she did pretty well and it made me feel like oh she can really do this like she can stand up to Trump with the proper training I really liked her focus on the future and specific policies that she had and kind of painting Trump as like this guy's still thinking about how he lost in 2020. We need someone who has a more positive vision of the future.

But the one thing I felt worse about is, of course, both sides were saying things that were either lies or needed a lot of context and repeating things that, for me, like fear-mongering is a big annoyance. And so when she immediately says like project 2025 is gonna happen if you elect him and I'm like he said so many times that he disagrees with some of the ideas in there and his is agenda 47 and he's not gonna implement project 2025 so there were there were several things like that where I was like that's clearly missing context and the moderators

would fact check Trump but they wouldn't fact check her about anything, which was a bit annoying. But like, I have to also take in the overall context of like the answer she did give on her own. We're pretty good. So, yeah, let's do a little bit of digging in there. So that was a lot of focus on Harris. And one of the things that you mentioned, so I'll do a pro and con here, starting with the con for Trump, is you mentioned that one of your annoyances is fear-mongering. And that's something that I think that instrument is very loud in Trump's symphony. And I just wanted to see if you had any thoughts about the things that you disliked about Trump before we got into what you liked about him? Yeah, I think he's always been definitely a fear-mongering person. And that does annoy me about him. And we certainly saw that last night. And what he's always saying

about, I'm going to prosecute everyone who cheated and I'm going to do all these things. It's just one of those things where I think I didn't hear anything new from either of them last night policy-wise. And so I think it's rhetoric I've come to expect from Trump and therefore, you know, maybe wrongly put emphasis on when the other side does it because I'm just like, oh, that's a given with Trump. He's going to do that. That's what he's been doing for the last eight years. It still annoys me, but I think it's part of his character kind of now. Breaking the other way then, things that you saw from Trump that you liked in this debate? Um, I don't know if there was much for me to like. I think, oh, I think he did say

some very true things. There were points when he definitely got Harris on um for example she mentioned things that he said in Charlottesville or project 2025 or how he thought about IVF um where she said things that were like I said just false or needed context and oh and the bloodbath comment as well that I think was grossly taken out of context it was he was talking about the auto industry and she was like he said it's going to be a bloodbath if he doesn't get the results that he wants. And I think he rightly called her out on using some of those things that were just wrong. And I think in those moments, it was hard not to agree with him. I think he also mentioned the jobs where there were so many jobs that were reported originally,

and then they revised that number down, and he brought that up. And so I think the points that he chose to kind of press on, they were good points where I was like, yeah, I can see that you have her there. Do you think that there is a winner to the debate? I would say that the winner was Harris. I think Trump didn't give a lot of specific, again, vision for the future. It was a lot of just the normal rhetoric. And I think people want a little bit more than that, including me. And I think he also didn't come off great with the moderators keeping trying to interrupt and go over his time. And I think Harris kind of kept things succinct.

She didn't go over time and she didn't try and talk over the muted mics that much. She did a few times. But I think it makes Trump look worse when he keeps trying to butt in and answer. And in contrast, like she just kind of sticks to the time limits. I think it makes it look a lot worse on him when he tries to argue in that way and kind of get a little rambunctious when everyone else is trying to be civil.

Let me move on to last night's presidential debate. Did you get a chance to watch that? I did. I did. I watched the whole thing. So let's start with your immediate impression of Vice President Harris's performance. Okay. So I think it was an awkward handshake in the beginning. I was like, what is she trying to do? But then again, I feel like she what is she trying to do? But then again, you know, it's just, I feel like she knew what she needed to do. And I think that was a great start. But I felt like first five or 10 minutes, or maybe not 10 minutes, maybe five, first five, five minutes, she seemed a little nervous. She seemed a little nervous. But then, you know, then it was just, you know, the way she

was answering the questions. And once Trump started talking, like, you know, it was just, you know, the way she was answering the questions. And once Trump started talking, like, you know, you could put Trump next to anyone. And as soon as Trump starts talking, the other person automatically starts to look good. Even if they're not talking, that's what I feel. And then she, of course, had a lot more to talk about. She was, you know, making sense about what a lot of things that she was talking about. And I think that's the takeaway. I mean, of course, she won the debate. I think she walked away. I mean, there was a lot of criticism from I don't know who, but people were like, oh, what is your policy? It's like, you know, her policies are on her website, and

she's talking about it all the time, too. So I mean, what do you mean? Like, you don't understand what her policy, where she stands when it comes to policy. So, yeah, the debate, I felt like it was, you know, the bar from the previous debate was so low that, you know, she did her great job. I think she proved herself. And this was her first debate. Trump, on the other hand, has been debating for quite some time. This was not the first time he was debating. And still, he wasn't prepared.

It didn't seem like he understood who he's up against. Maybe it could be like his ego could have played a role. And yeah, as usual, I felt like there were a few statements that I'm not saying, there was a lot of rhetoric. And because of that, there were a few statements even Kamala Harris made that I felt like not 100%, you know, true. But then again, you're dealing with, you know, the other person talking about people eating cats and dogs, right?

So whatever she was saying, like, yeah, there was some truth to it. She would pick on certain things. And her arguments were still something you could understand. But on the other hand, you were dealing with someone who was just completely, you know, conspiracy theories and all that stuff. So, yeah, the debate was quite one-sided. I don't think I learned anything from the debate. Yeah, that's what I would say, at least from Kamala Harris. I was not expecting to learn, I would also say this.

But then again, yeah, there was nothing new. I didn't feel like there was anything new where she would target people who were undecided. I think she was just going after people who already support her and would vote for her regardless. And it's very difficult to get people from the other side to vote for her. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm right. We'll find out soon. And what would you say were your impressions of former President Trump? Yeah, I think he, once again, he just completely underestimated her. And he felt that he had an upper hand. He didn't. And I think he keeps talking about immigration, which I think he thinks is a very big issue in people's minds

i'm sure it is a big issue but it's not at an extent where you can make up things where you can run with them like the stories that he was trying to tell about criminals coming and all those things like those are not the kind of things people, I think, are seeing. Maybe his base, maybe his filter bubble is used to that. But then again, it's like no one in the room with him is ever trying to explain to him that a lot of the things that he thinks are true are absolutely false. So I think he comes from that background. And I think he, again and again, was trying to play on the immigration economy being in shambles economy is not in shambles and immigration yes it's a big issue but it's not as bad as he makes it sound so all these things that he touched on there was nothing

unexpected that he said I mean besides the people eating their pets, there was nothing that I felt like, okay, you know, this time he is changing his tactics and he's going after something else. And one thing that I, one point that I think he made towards the very end, which is something that I would have made sure that if I was him, I would have started with that and ended with that, which was, well, whatever you're talking about right now, things that you're talking about, the plans that you're coming up with, policies, you have been in power or you are a vice president,

but your boss, the president, how come you don't have enough influence on him to implement these things that you talked about in your plan? Why aren't you doing more with the borders? Why isn't there, when it comes to, like, for example, she talked about a tax break or, you know, something related to startup businesses. Why isn't that happening right now? Why aren't you doing something along those lines? So I think he missed an opportunity there.

Why aren't you doing something along those lines? So I think he missed an opportunity there. And I mean, it's really strange that there's a lot more that he could have ran with. But I felt like he was just going after certain things that he just is not able to get over. One of them being abortion. Babies are being killed after nine months after they're born, some random West Virginia thing that he keeps bringing up. And I had to look it up to find out, like, what is he talking about? And it turns out there was a governor who was a physician

who went on a radio show who talked about what happens in the case of, like, what he was talking about. There's a stillborn baby or something along those lines. And never did this person say what, you know, Trump claims to be happening. So, yeah, it's one of those things where he could have done so much more. But I think he is Harris won the debate, I would say. And I think there's no question that she won the debate on just being, you know, someone who can make an argument or can articulate a policy or someone who knows how to debate, someone who has a presence, someone who's not, you know, angry or like, you know, always who's not you know angry or like you know always in this you know grumpy mood uh someone who's positive so he she did a better job and

you just had to like she threw in a bait in there uh which was amazing i think when she did that when she started talking about the crowd sizes i knew he will just lose it. Like I just knew it. And that's exactly what happened. Like that just, you know, you don't do that with him. And he, I mean, even though he was, I'm pretty sure told that she might try to do that to him. He didn't care.

Like he took the bait. So I think she was very good as a debater. She was definitely better than Trump. So one of the things I wanted to talk to you about was the Trump and Harris debate. First of all, did you did you watch the debate? Yes, I did. I watched it and I tried rewatching it, didn't get through the rewatch. And I tried rewatching it, didn't get through the rewatch. But this is one where I want to take as much time as I can and seriously sit with it. It is one that caught my attention for various reasons, but one that I just have to go back and I have to do some deep diving in.

Once I listened to the debate, I had to sit back and ask myself, did I actually listen to a debate, or did I listen to something entirely different? Because in my opinion, that really wasn't a debate. What it was, from my perspective, was a three-on-one question-and-answer session. At a minimum, it was a question and answer session. But it was, it truly was kind of a three-on-one, it felt like. And the reason I believe that, first of all, as just a, as more of a Q&A, is there wasn't, I mean, obviously, it's which candidate deserves to run this country is kind of the unstated premise, or the unstated, not the premise, the unstated topic. Who's the

better candidate? And you have cross-examination. But what happened was there was a lot of questions being thrown out, not a lot of cross-examination. It was mostly just ad hominem attacks. attacks, and the moderators were involved in a way that is not true to real debate. So it was a question and answer session, really, without much of a, you know, back and forth between the candidates. And it was three on one because the moderators were doing the job of one of the opponents in the debate. It's normally the debate opponent on the other side who is to fact check and to present counter evidence and stuff like that. But the moderators were playing that role specifically for Trump. So it was definitely a three on one question answer session. So I walk out of it feeling like, okay, that's very, very telling. The fact that you have moderators fulfilling the role that the candidate should be

fulfilling uh responding inappropriately it's inappropriate for a moderator to be doing that kind of thing the moderator is to moderate um and so that's what's had me aside from just the claims on both sides that were just you know know, really sickening to hear. I mean, just both candidates have no idea what a debate, a real debate looks like, obviously. Aside from that, having the moderators involved has me thinking, okay, I need to do some homework and I need to cross-check the cross-checkers because this is blown way out of proportion for me. This is not the way that it should be from my perspective. Did you think Brian, any candidate won? Oh, I don't think anybody really won because again, it's really hard to classify it as a debate given how it just played

out. I don't really see anybody as a winner. I think it was revealing on both ends. It shows that Trump is definitely as egotistical as everyone thinks and Kamala is kind of as ditzy as everybody thinks. It really is kind of a revealing aspect of what's important to them. It seems seems like for trump the important thing is put everything aside and just get down and dirty to get done what needs to get done i don't care whose feelings have to be crushed in order to get there i don't care who i have to fire to get there um it seems like camilla is very much like let's do this in a way where everybody agrees and which preserves the feelings of everybody. You know, I very much, I can relate to you, the sympathetic and empathetic approach to everything. It has to

be all done with pure empathy and understanding and protection for everybody's feelings. So I feel like that came out in the debate. In either case, though, I don't think there was a winner. Not just because I don't think it was a real debate, but because even if it was a real debate, neither side really presented themselves in a way that I would have loved to have seen. Last night was the first debate, maybe the only debate, between Vice President Harris and Donald Trump. That's what you're calling it? You're calling it a debate? I guess that's what they titled it. Maybe that gives us a clue into your thoughts. So I'll start with the first question here, which is, did you watch the entire debate?

I did. But what I did, I watched about three quarters of it last night. And then I watched about a quarter of it this morning. And it's been very interesting because my thoughts of last night and this morning, I don't know if it's because I was tired then and I was wide awake in the morning, I don't know. Or maybe it could just be the content at the end versus the beginning. But I had different thoughts at the beginning and at the end. But I had different thoughts at the beginning and at the end. I'm curious, was there a reason you watched it in parts like that? Yes, because I normally go to bed early, and I knew it was going to be a struggle to stay up to 11 o'clock.

So as long as I could concentrate, I watched it. And then when I could feel myself kind of trying to nod off and everything, I decided it was time to turn it off. But part of the reason I was nodding off is because I wasn't bored, but it was just, it was just, I was like, why am I watching this? I'm wasting my time. This is the same old stuff. Nobody is saying anything that we didn't think we were going to say. Donald Trump is being Donald Trump. Kamala Harris is, you know, not answering the questions. Why are we doing this? This is not, nobody is learning anything. And so, anyway, I ended up turning it off, so, and put back on in the water. What was your immediate impression of Vice President Harris's performance? I think she did a very good job. I really think she did a great job.

Now, she didn't, you know, she dodged a number of questions, but I think she handled herself well. I think she handled Donald Trump well. I didn't really care for the strategy, because I know the strategy was, you know, to kind of make him mad and make him go off. Well, that's all fine and dandy, but that's not telling us anything. That's not telling us what you're going to do about the economy. That's not telling us, you know, what are you going to do about women's reproductive rights? And like, she never answered that. She just said, you know, what are you going to do about women's reproductive rights? And like, she never answered that. She just said, you know, I'm going to do Roe versus Wade. And, you know, we're all sitting here trying to think, okay, now what exactly did Roe versus Wade say? And the very first question,

I think about, wasn't the first question about the economy and, okay, she never answered the question. And there were a number of cases where she never answered the question and there were a number of cases where she she never answered the question so i wasn't real happy with that and just the whole strategy because it's like it's just not a debate it's not what we learned a debate was in high school and college it's not where you present your argument and you present your argument. I mean, arguing, yes. But, you know, we really didn't find out a whole lot about what she was going to do. Trump talked about what he did, and she talked about what the Biden administration did. Now, how much she had to do with that, we really don't know. So, anyway, it um underwhelming and uh disappointing and to that point but i but then i changed my mind when i got up in the morning so changed your mind that the performance was all

right well that part it seemed like towards the end or the last quarter she seemed at that point, she seemed to be answering questions a little bit better. She was really showing the difference between her and Trump when she was saying about how she is looking forward, he's looking backwards. I seemed to get a better sense of what she was. So when it was all over with, I thought, you know, you did a really good job. I feel a little bit better about you now handling the country. You know, I'm still not like rah-rah, yay Kamala Harris, but I do feel better about it. And I said, as I said before, if she wins, as far as we're concerned, she is my president. I will do everything I can to support her, and I will do nothing but wish her the best and hope that she does well.

Immediate impressions of former President Trump. Oh, I mean, he was just awful as usual. And some of the things he said, now, I didn't hear anybody say anything about this on the news today, but at one point when he kind of burst out about, and Biden hates you. He thinks you're terrible and you haven't done anything, and he just hates you. I'm like, what is up with you? And then, of course, the cats and the dogs. That was just, it was like, you've got to be kidding me. Even Donald Trump, you know, I couldn't believe he said that. And it was, and quite frankly, I think to a certain degree, he was a little bit like Joe Biden. Now, the demeanor and everything was different,

but he wasn't answering questions. He's going off on all kinds of tangents. He might start talking about immigration, but then he goes to the economy, and then he goes, you know, all in one question. The one thing i that really bothered me were the moderators i thought they were terrible and they just let him go on and on and then he'd say well now i need to address this and they would let him do it it's like what happened to the muted mics and you know the first debate they did a very good job of that. Now, I think maybe Biden and Trump were, you know, Trump was a little more calm then, but I just thought they were terrible. And they seemed, in all fairness to Trump, every question to him was a very inflammatory, pointed,

let's see what we can do to make you mad question, whether it was a question and the tone of voice or the question itself. They fact-checked him. They never did that to Kamala Harris. Now, her errors were never near as egregious as Trump's were, but, you know, not everything she said was 100% true, and they never called her out for it. And I just think, I mean, if I had to grade them, I'd give them maybe a D plus. They were terrible. So, and I feel bad saying that because I try not to put people down. But anyway.

So my question for you to start off, Phil, is did you watch the debate live? Did you catch up with it after the fact? How much were you following that when it was happening? I wasn't able to catch it live. I was on retreat. But when I came back, I watched as much of the debate as I could stand, which got me, you know, over an hour into it. But I didn't watch it to the very end. And going through each Trump and Harris, we'll start with Harris. What was your impression of how she did? You know, I think she technically won the debate. If it was a boxing match,

she would have won by points. There weren't any knockouts. And I think she was relatively poised, especially after she seemed to relax. She just got into a groove about 10 minutes in. And she did a marvelous job of jabbing at Trump and getting under his skin and getting him off track. So that's the positive part of it. She's articulate and she's effective in that context. She also did a great job, as she's done, of avoiding answering any questions, of saying anything that would link her to her own past or to Joe Biden's difficulties and failures. And I got the impression of someone who is all form and no substance. And on the flip side, how did you think that Trump did?

I think Trump is his own worst enemy. I think in the beginning, he was doing all right. You know, he has his personality and it doesn't appeal to everyone. But he was making his points and he was exercising a certain measure of self-control. exercising a certain measure of self-control. But once she poked his weak spot, which is his vanity, he couldn't just let it go and actually laugh it off. If he would just laugh off some of her comments, like she laughs his off, they wouldn't land. They aren't substantial, her comments about the rally, I mean, where's that coming from? It was pure provocation, and he foolishly went for it. So, he lost on four. Basically, she's running on one thing. We don't want that man.

Basically, she's running on one thing. We don't want that man. It's not that we want her or that she's presenting policies or she's particularly attractive or she has a vision for the country. It's that you can't elect him, can you? And she makes that point over and over and over again. And it's the only substantial point she makes. But he lets her make it. He fails to stick to the subject, to enforce the fact that she has the most liberal voting record of any candidate for president that we know, that she has not explained how she has moved so from the position she espoused when she was running for president and the actions she took while she was vice president, how she has moved

toward the center and why we should believe that this is something she's going to stick to or represents herself, especially when she won't articulate policies, except to say, I'll give more money, you know, to help you buy a house and help you start a business. So, Phil, when we talked about a week and a half ago, after Harris and Walz did their first interview on CNN, you mentioned that there was a comment Harris made about her values not changing that actually made you feel like you were the closest to voting Trump as you had been at any point. So I'm wondering, just to circle back on that comment and the way you're thinking about the election, has the debate or just in general the way you're thinking about the election, has that changed how you're feeling? Do you still think that you're closer to voting for Trump? Or are you kind of back at where you've been from the beginning?

I am genuinely torn. More torn than I was when we began these conversations. Because I was sure I would never vote for Trump. I haven't voted for Trump. I like him even less now than I did the other times that he ran. And I have more reasons to be concerned about his character than I had then. Nevertheless, I find Kamala and Waltz more objectionable, less trustworthy, less substantial than any of the previous candidates that Trump has run against. who has two sides, one that is fundamentally leaning on a limited government, Republican perspective and moral conservatism.

And the other, which feels like a leader, ought to have a kind of character that the people in the country want to emulate and has a character that is predictable and self-controlled and can stand up under pressure. And I'm being pulled apart by the tensions. Today, if I had to vote, I don't think I would tip in the direction of Trump. I would refuse to vote for either. Last time we talked, I was leaning toward Trump.

But seeing him again has just reminded me of why I don't want to be able to say to myself or others, yes, I held my nose and voted for Trump. That just doesn't seem an adequate answer right now. All right, that is it for episode seven. Our next episode will be our last check-in with Claire, Brian, Zahid, Diana, and Phil before the election. Join us as we reflect with them on the journey to their final choice and, of course, their predictions on the outcome. The Undecideds is a Tangle Media production. This episode was written by Isaac Saul

and edited and engineered by John Long Interviews were conducted by Magdalena Bokova Will Kabick John Long and Ari Weitzman Music was composed and produced by John Long For more content from Tangle Media, please go to our website at retangle.com. Thank you.