Tangle - Project 2025's director resigns.

Starting point is 00:00:00 From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year. Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th.

Starting point is 00:00:34 Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. Are you sure you parked over here? Do you see it anywhere? I think it's back this way. Come on. Hey, you're going the wrong way. Feeling distracted?

Starting point is 00:01:08 You're not alone. Whether renting, considering buying a home, or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast,

Starting point is 00:01:54 a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of Isaac's take. I am your host for today, John Law. Isaac is traveling, so I'm filling in. And today, we are going to be talking about the downfall of Project 2025, including the resignation of director Paul Dance, who we actually interviewed for our piece on Project 2025, which came out as a Friday edition just a couple weeks ago. Before we get started, just a quick note that tomorrow we are going to be sending out a special Friday edition to celebrate our fifth anniversary. That's right. About five years ago, Isaac started Tangle with a little under 150 subscribers.

Starting point is 00:02:34 And today we crossed over the $1 million annual recurring revenue threshold from reader subscriptions, which is absolutely an incredible feat worth celebrating. And we're going to talk about that, what's been happening in the last year and what we plan on doing next. We're also going to introduce 10 of our favorite reader essays from the last year, so keep an eye out for that. All right, with that out of the way, let's jump into today's quick hits. into today's quick hits. First up, Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gerskovich, former Marine Paul Whelan, and more than a dozen others were released by Russia as part of a multi-country prisoner swap involving 24 prisoners and at least six countries. Number two, Iran vowed retaliation for the assassination of Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh Wednesday, reportedly ordering a direct strike on Israel. The Biden administration said it was

Starting point is 00:03:31 very concerned the assassination of Hamas's political leader would derail negotiations over a hostage and ceasefire deal. Separately, Israel confirmed that it had also killed Mohammed Daif, the leader of Hamas's military wing and the architect of the October 7th attacks. Number three, the Pentagon reached a plea deal with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and two others accused of planning the September 11th attacks. Number four, after a long delay, Ukraine received its first batch of F-16 fighters delivered through Denmark and Norway. And number five, Democrats are beginning the process to formally nominate Vice President Kamala Harris as the party's presidential

Starting point is 00:04:09 nominee with an online roll call vote starting today. A shakeup in the conservative blueprint called Project 2025 has intensified the spotlight on the presidential race. The group's director resigned yesterday following pressure from former President Donald Trump. Now, Project 2025 is a roadmap for a new Republican administration prepared by the Heritage Foundation. the Heritage Foundation. Paul Danz, the director of the Heritage Foundation's Project 2025, has stepped down. The conservative think tank's president, Kevin Roberts, confirmed Paul's departure from the organization in a statement writing, quote, We're extremely grateful for his and everyone's work on Project 2025 and their dedication to saving America. Our collective efforts to build a personnel apparatus for policymakers of all levels, federal, state, and local, will continue. Roberts was vague on providing details

Starting point is 00:05:09 about Paul's next move, saying only that he will be moving up to the front. On Tuesday, the Heritage Foundation's Paul Danz announced he was stepping down from his position as director of the 2025 Presidential Transition Project, also known as Project 2025. Dan's exit comes after weeks of Democratic criticism on the project, on the campaign trail, and repeated disavowals from former President Donald Trump, who has insisted Project 2025 is not a blueprint for his second term. The Daily Beast reported that the Trump campaign was directly involved in orchestrating Dan's ouster as part of an effort to shut down the project entirely. As a reminder, Project 2025 is a plan from the Conservative Heritage Foundation for how the next conservative president can manage

Starting point is 00:05:54 the administrative state once in office. It contains four pillars, a set of policy proposals, a database of personnel who could serve in the next administration, a presidential administration academy to train those personnel, and a playbook for the next president for the first 180 days in office. The project has no official affiliation with the Trump campaign, but dozens of former Trump administration staffers and advisors contributed to the final report. We published a deep dive on Project 2025 in July, including an interview with Paul Danz, and you can check that out in a link in today's episode description. Heritage President Kevin Roberts said Danz's departure was planned, writing,

Starting point is 00:06:35 We began Project 2025 in April of 2022. We set a timeline for the project to conclude its policy drafting after the two-party conventions this year, and we are sticking to that timeline. Roberts added that he will take over as Project 2025's director. In a note to his staff at Heritage, Danz echoed this message, saying, we completed what we set out to do, which was create a unified conservative vision, bringing together over 110 leading organizations united behind the cause of deconstructing the administrative state. Democrats have sought to tie Trump to Project 2025 on the campaign trail, administrative state. Democrats have sought to tie Trump to Project 2025 on the campaign trail, arguing that the plan serves as a playbook for a second Trump term.

Starting point is 00:07:14 Some controversial aspects of the project's 900-plus-page Mandate for Leadership book include stripping protections for civil servants against being fired by the president, creating new restrictions on access to abortion medication, and significantly shrinking or eliminating the education department. Democrats, led by President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris, have made proposals like these a focal point of rallies, fundraising pitches, and social media campaigns as part of a concerted push to make Project 2025 a defining issue of the presidential election. As these attacks have escalated, Trump has publicly and privately expressed frustration with the initiative and the Heritage Foundation. At recent rallies, he called some of its proposals abysmal and written by people on the severe

Starting point is 00:07:51 right. In an interview with Fox News, he singled out the plan's recommendation on abortion policy as going way too far. After Dan's exit was announced, Chris LaCivita and Susie Wiles, two of the Trump campaign senior advisors, released a statement writing, Reports of Project 2025's demise would be greatly welcomed and should serve as notice to anyone, or any group, trying to misrepresent their influence with President Trump and his campaign.

Starting point is 00:08:18 It will not end well for you. Today, we'll share reactions to the latest news about Project 2025 from the right and the left, and then Isaac's take. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break. Oh, that coffee smells good. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing? That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee.

Starting point is 00:08:50 Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with mortgage payments on their minds. If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank. The earlier they understand your situation, the more options and relief measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada.

Starting point is 00:09:10 From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain, one of the most moving and funny films of the year. Written and directed by Oscar-nominated Jesse Eisenberg and starring Eisenberg and Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin, A Real Pain is a comedy about mismatched cousins who reunite for a tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles

Starting point is 00:09:36 at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. First up, we'll start with what the right is saying. The right says the saga shows Trump will sacrifice anyone he thinks could hurt his re-election effort. Some are critical of Dan's ouster, suggesting that Trump fell for lies about Project 2025. Others say this theory doesn't matter in the long run, but think Trump handled it well. The Wall Street Journal editorial board said,

Starting point is 00:10:13 Trump buries Project 2025. You almost have to feel sorry for Kevin Roberts, the ambitious president of the Heritage Foundation. He steered the venerable think tank away from some of its longtime conservative principles to court Donald Trump, only to be spurned by the temperamental former president he and his institution courted, the board wrote. Democrats targeted Project 2025 as if it were the guide to Trump 2, and Mr. Trump responded by tossing aside Heritage and its policy recommendations like so much junk mail. Roberts' mistake was thinking that Mr. Trump cares about anyone's ideas other than his own. He governs on feral instinct, tactical opportunism, and what seems popular at any given moment.

Starting point is 00:10:54 The Democratic attacks on Project 2025 were laughable because Mr. Trump is never going to have a governing platform, the board said. The lesson for heritage and other think tanks is that it's better to stick to your principles rather than court the political favor of the day and never trust a politician. In PJ Media, Catherine Salgado asked, why does Trump believe Dem lies about Project 2025? Donald Trump has an excellent record in some ways, but he also has a tendency to shoot himself in the foot. A clear example of that now is his persistence in disavowing Project 2025 on the basis of Democrat lies, Salgado wrote.

Starting point is 00:11:32 The lies about conservative coalition Project 2025 got so ridiculous that even leftist NewsGuard fact-checked them, and yet Trump cannot seem to do the most basic research. Why would he or anyone on his side believe anything Kamala Harris and her media lackeys say anymore? Have we not learned to distrust whatever propaganda the leftists screech? Project 2025 is a coalition of conservative organizations that developed a policy agenda aimed at undermining leftism and implementing practical solutions. The basis for the project's agenda is the very Heritage Foundation mandate previously embraced by the Trump administration, Salgado said. This is exactly what Trump should be focused on.

Starting point is 00:12:11 Instead, he's buying into Democrats' soundbites and falling into Democrats' traps. Let us hope that Trump gets his head on straight and stops attacking the very individuals most qualified and determined to help him succeed. In red state, the blogger Strife called Dan's a scapegoat. In terms of substance, Project 2025, or something like it, was necessary. The project brought together over 100 veterans of Trump's administration, and center-right organizations were involved in the project, Strife wrote. Should he win, Trump will be faced with a virulently hostile federal bureaucracy. It is imperative that Trump has people waiting in the wings to take control and that they

Starting point is 00:12:48 have an action plan for accomplishing things. What is instructive about this episode is that Trump refused to spend any time fighting over what the project did and didn't say. He walked away from it. The project finished its work, and that work will be available if Trump takes office. He refused to get bogged down in a fight over a document produced by a think tank that was plausibly not sponsored by the Trump campaign. I'm not sure 2016 to 2020 Trump could have resisted the urge to go to war. All right, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying.

Starting point is 00:13:33 The left sees the fallout from Project 2025 as a predicament of Republicans' own making. Some say Trump's efforts to distance himself from the project aren't convincing. Others dispute that Dan's departure will make the issue go away. In the Boston Globe, Kimberly Atkins-Store wrote about how Project 2025 backfired on the GOP. The reports of the demise of Project 2025, reports that are coming from even Donald Trump's campaign, are greatly exaggerated. According to the conservative playbook's own architects, it is just getting started. And as Trump knows, it's already backfiring on Republicans, Storr said. But it's easy to understand why Trump and his team wanted to pretend that the plan has disappeared. They learned the hard way that in a post-Roe world, such a bald-faced plan that focuses largely on rolling back the rights of women and other marginalized Americans was a bad idea.

Starting point is 00:14:19 It has enraged and engaged Trump opponents from the grassroots up. and engaged Trump opponents from the grassroots up. Harris has now made the plan a key part of her pitch to voters, and there is plenty of fodder within it to rev up her base and defeat Trump and other Republicans down the ballot, Storer wrote. The plan is only adding to the urgency Harris supporters feel, and that has Trump fuming. But it's too late now. What was meant to be a conservative secret is now a household name.

Starting point is 00:14:42 Trump can't distance himself from it now, no matter how hard he tries. In Ceylon, Heather Digby Parton argued Trump's attempted rebrand of Project 2025 is failing. The Trump campaign's frustration with the group has been obvious ever since the Democrats jumped on the 900-page manifesto and made it into another Trump branded product. No matter how hard the Trump campaign tried, they couldn't get people to stop talking about Project 2025, Parton wrote. Dan's departure was immediately interpreted to mean that the Trump people had engineered his ouster and had successfully gotten the Heritage Foundation to back away from it.

Starting point is 00:15:18 But is that really the case? Pretty much everything else from policies on law enforcement to trade to education and immigration are all listed on Trump's own Agenda 47 website, Pretty much everything else from policies on law enforcement to trade to education and immigration are all listed on Trump's own Agenda 47 website, with very little to distinguish them from Project 2025, except for the level of detail. In other words, they see Project 2025 as a branding problem, not a substance problem, Parton wrote. Trump has every intention of implementing its vision.

Starting point is 00:15:43 It's his vision, too. wrote. Trump has every intention of implementing its vision. It's his vision too. Not only would it be terrifying and dangerous, but it would also be dangerously incompetent. In the fulcrum, Christina Beckvar and David L. Nevin said rumors of Project 2025's demise are greatly exaggerated. The Trump campaign released a statement celebrating Project 2025's demise, but there is no reason to believe that the news is anything but damage control. Project 2025 remains quite relevant, Bekfar and Nevins wrote. There is good news to believe that pressure from Trump's campaign, which has sought to disassociate itself from Project 2025 in recent weeks,

Starting point is 00:16:18 played a role in Dan's departure. The project has faced significant backlash for its proposals, which include drastic policy changes that many view as authoritarian and detrimental to civil liberties. Regardless of the Trump campaign's desire to distance itself from a plan lacking American support, 31 of 38 people responsible for Project 2025 served in Trump's first administration. Trump's campaign platform, Agenda 47, mirrors Project 2025's economic, national security, education, and healthcare policies, Bekvar Nevin said. Nothing has changed as a result of the Heritage Foundation's decision to back off its public alignment with Project 2025.

Starting point is 00:17:11 All right, that is it for what the right and the left are saying, which brings us to Isaac's take. Just a reminder that this is Isaac's opinion, and I'm just reading it in the first person. So I was surprised all of this was happening as fast as it did, but not at all surprised by how it happened. As a journalist, one huge part of my job is developing a truth sense. It can be hard to tell how much of what people I interview say or what other journalists write is true, but over time, you start to develop a sixth sense for it. When I interviewed Paul Danz a few weeks ago, he told me that Project 2025 was genuinely working to convince Trump their outline for a future administration was worth pursuing. He delivered this to me in a way that I found credible and believable,

Starting point is 00:17:51 despite the hysteria from a lot of people in the media about what he was working on. Of course, Danz worked for Trump. The two had a seemingly strong relationship. But when Danz was in the Heritage role, both sides understood that relationship. Trump was and is the leader of the party and the odds-on favorite to be president. Dan's was leading a group of conservatives trying to convince him what to prioritize if he wins. So Dan's insistence that Project 2025 is a set of recommendations to Trump, not a blueprint for his administration, fit with my understanding. And I believed him.

Starting point is 00:18:24 Now, is Dan's departure the end of Project 2025? No. Heritage is going to continue their work, and if Trump wins in November, I'm certain they'll have enough connection to the new administration to have leverage for their policy suggestions, and that's always how it was going to be. Here's what I said in our deep dive. Simply put, Trump's agenda and Project 2025 are not the same as evidenced by the differences in the agendas Trump has endorsed and the one Project 2025 has put forward. If Trump wins, I believe he will abandon or ignore parts of Project 2025. Other parts of the administration will not be competent or unified enough to pull off,

Starting point is 00:19:02 and some of the aims a hypothetical Trump administration did take up would fail because of legal challenges. I also think a dimension of Dan stepping down has been under-discussed. Liberals and conservatives disagree on a lot, but one thing they've both been saying over and over again is a second Trump term is going to be much more organized and competent than the first one. Project 2025 was a symbol of that. A group of conservatives spelling out where Trump was disorganized and laying out a plan to help him.

Starting point is 00:19:30 Danz himself told me that Trump was very successful, but encountered a lot of resistance, and it's incumbent on us as future conservative appointees to be able to know the landscape and to be ready to go on day one. But one of the reasons Trump might be ditching Project 2025 is that his team actually hasn't done the work necessary to implement it. Jonathan Swan, one of the best informed reporters in DC, put it this way. There are three months until the election. Trump has

Starting point is 00:19:56 done no real transition work. How do you think they're going to staff 4,000 political positions? It's cost-free to trash Project 2025 now for political reasons and then take their database and pick and choose after winning the election. That also sounds true to me. Though it happened more suddenly than I anticipated, this move to create further distance between Trump and Heritage is about what I expected. Most of Project 2025's recommendations are going to be impossible to implement anyway, either legally or because they require healthy majorities in the House and Senate. But their biggest obstacle was always going to be Trump himself, who has better political

Starting point is 00:20:32 instincts than most in his party and understands what is and isn't popular. Heritage's most visible proposals were too radical. Trump sensed this, and so he cut bait. Trump sensed this, and so he cut bait. We'll be right back after this quick break. Oh, that coffee smells good. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? Whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing?

Starting point is 00:21:01 That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee. Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with mortgage payments on their minds. If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank. The earlier they understand your situation, the more options and relief measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash it pays to know.

Starting point is 00:21:20 A message from the Government of Canada. From Searchlight Pictures comes A Real Pain the Government of their family history. A Real Pain was one of the buzziest titles at Sundance Film Festival this year, garnering rave reviews and acclaim from both critics and audiences alike. See A Real Pain only in theaters November 15th. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness

Starting point is 00:22:10 to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. at the National Association of Black Journalists Conference. Um, all right. So again, from Isaac, for those who missed it, Trump was interviewed by three Black journalists in front of a live audience at the National Association of Black Journalists Conference on Wednesday. It was interesting.

Starting point is 00:22:57 The NABJ lined up the interview after Vice President Kamala Harris's scheduled appearance fell through due to scheduling conflicts, and the NABJ declined her offer to take part in a virtual talk. Before the interview, Karen Atiyah, a prominent Black journalist, resigned from her role as co-chair of the convention over the decision to host Trump. You can watch the full interview in a link in today's episode description, but a few

Starting point is 00:23:19 moments are going to generate the most discussion. One was Trump's comments on Harris's race in response to a question about Republicans attacking her as a DEI candidate. I didn't know she was Black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn Black, and now she wants to be known as Black. So I don't know. Is she Indian or is she Black? I respect either one, but she obviously doesn't, because she was Indian all the way, and then suddenly she made a turn and she became a Black person. And I think somebody should look into that, too. Trump also reiterated he'd pardoned January 6th rioters, claimed he was the best president for Black people since Abraham Lincoln, and said he saved historically Black colleges and universities. It was a contentious interview from the start, with ABC's Rachel Scott opening by asking Trump about claiming Barack Obama wasn't born in the U.S., calling Black District Attorneys animal and rabid, and for

Starting point is 00:24:10 having dinner with a white supremacist, Nick Fuentes, at Mar-a-Lago. Trump called the question one of the worst and most rude questions he's ever been asked. So my thoughts? Well, here's five quick ones. One, in part two of our deep dive on Kamala Harris, I listed her five strengths atop the ticket. One strength was that in any future debate, I could see Harris baiting Trump into saying or doing something that'd be bad for his campaign, and that people forget how often he hurts himself on stage because of how bad Biden was at the debate. Attacking Harris for turning black is a very good example.

Starting point is 00:24:46 was at the debate. Attacking Harris for turning Black is a very good example. Not that it needs to be said, but she went to Howard University and HBCU and joined a Black sorority, Alpha Kappa Alpha. So she identified both as Black and Indian as a college student, and for as long as she's been in public life. It was an idiotic thing for Trump to claim in any setting, but especially in front of Black journalists at an event billed as him speaking directly to Black voters. 2. Trump is at his best when he's talking about you, the American people. This interview was me, me, me. It was all about what he's done for Black people, how great a president he was, and

Starting point is 00:25:19 how unfairly he's been treated. He has a good case to make to Black voters that his policies helped them economically, but he didn't make it well. It's worth saying this campaign is very different from the one he ran in 2016, and I think this kind of messaging is a great weakness for him this year. He needs to get back to talking about Americans and what he's going to do for us. Number three, he's still complaining about how unfair Harris replacing Biden on the ticket was to him. The Trump campaign better get focused real quick. If they keep wasting time complaining about the switch rather than defining Harris to voters, they're going to be in big trouble in November.

Starting point is 00:25:55 Number four, I don't think the NABJ came out looking good after this either. As many others have noted, they were disorganized, had technical issues on stage, asked several questions that were closer to political statements, and had audible jeers and heckling from the audience of professional journalists. Most importantly, the entire thing was delayed, which clearly frustrated Trump from the outset, and then ended early and abruptly without explanation. Trump made big mistakes, but from a media projection perspective, I wasn't impressed by the NABJ either.

Starting point is 00:26:26 And number five, there's been a lot of controversy over the NABJ's decision to invite Trump. My feelings in point four aside, I'm glad they did. This interview was exactly why you should never shy away from interviewing a former president, or anyone as influential and significant as Trump. Putting him on that stage created a newsworthy event that gave voters a look into his stance on issues that are relevant to them. It is silly and counterproductive for journalists to try to boycott open dialogue with people simply because they don't like them or their views. All right, that is it for your questions answered, which brings us to our under the radar story.

Starting point is 00:27:06 Young Black voters now appear to be swing voters, according to new polling data. Black voters constitute at least 10% of the population in U.S. swing states. And while older Black voters remain heavily loyal to the Democratic Party, younger Black voters are breaking evenly between Republicans and Democrats. Before President Biden dropped out, polling showed a near even split between how Black voters aged 25 to 34 were planning to cast their ballots. This shift in preference marks a major change from elections as recent as 2020. ABC News has this story, and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section.

Starting point is 00:27:46 The search interest score out of 100 for Google searches of Project 2025 on June 30th was 18. The search interest score for Google searches on Project 2025 on July 10th was 100. The percentage of U.S. adults who say they've heard nothing about Project 2025 is 42%, according to a July 2024 YouGov poll. The percentage of Democrats who say they've heard a lot about Project 2025 is 35%. The percentage of Republicans who say they've heard a lot about Project 2025 is 7%. The percentage of U.S. adults who believe former President Donald Trump supports the proposals in Project 2025 is 44%. The percentage of Democrats who believe Trump supports the proposals in Project 2025 is 44%. The percentage

Starting point is 00:28:26 of Democrats who believe Trump supports the proposals in Project 2025 is 69%. And the percentage of Republicans who believe Trump supports the proposals in Project 2025 is 26%. And last but not least, our Have a Nice Day story. In a study completed in South Africa and Uganda, researchers found that biannual shots used to treat AIDS were able to prevent new infections in women. Tandeka Nkosi, who helped to facilitate the study in South Africa, said twice-yearly shots would eliminate the whole stigma around taking pills to prevent HIV. While discussions regarding pricing of the shots are ongoing, pills to prevent HIV. While discussions regarding pricing of the shots are ongoing, academics and industry experts project the prices may decrease as the scale of use increases. HIV currently kills more than 600,000 individuals annually, primarily in Africa. The shots are about as close as you can

Starting point is 00:29:18 get to an HIV vaccine, said Andrew Hill, a researcher from the University of Liverpool. NBC News has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to readtangle.com and sign up for a membership. You'll hear Isaac back on the mic for this Sunday's podcast with managing editor Ari Weitzman. And then we'll be back on Monday with our regular daily podcast.

Starting point is 00:29:52 For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a fantastic weekend, y'all. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kedak, Bailey Saul, and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bacova, who is also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75.

Starting point is 00:30:23 If you're looking for more from Tangle, please go to readtangle.com and check out our website.

Tangle - Project 2025's director resigns.

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