Tangle - Reader interview, Part 2: Miriam

Episode Date: January 3, 2023

Miriam Stein is a Gen X woman from Yucipa, California, a mom of 2 teens & married for 25 years. She got her degree in environmental engineering and is also a photographer. Miriam says she grew up Republican and voted Republican until approximately 2012 when she realized that she liked Obama and the candidates the GOP were bringing forward no longer aligned with her beliefs. Today, we discuss her upbringing, raising kids in today's world, and what she thinks of California's environmental laws.You can subscribe to Tangle by clicking here or drop something in our tip jar by clicking here.Our podcast is written by Isaac Saul and edited by Zosha Warpeha. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75.Our newsletter is edited by Bailey Saul, Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and produced in conjunction with Tangle’s social media manager Magdalena Bokowa, who also created our logo.--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tanglenews/message Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight.

Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+. From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking without all that hysterical nonsense you find everywhere else. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and today is our second installment of the Tangle Reader interview series. I should have come up with a name for this before I started recording it, but I honestly don't have one. Today on the show, I'm super

excited. Miriam Stein from Yucaipa, California. Miriam, thank you so much for coming on and sitting down with us. Thanks for having me. It's so great to finally meet you. So before we jump in, I'm going to try and do this for everybody. Hopefully I remembered this for everybody, but just to level the playing field, I'm going to read a brief bio from you, basically what you put in your Tangle form that was randomly chosen from our little Google Excel spreadsheet. This is what you said about yourself. So, you know, you and I have emailed a bunch, which we'll talk about, I'm sure, during the interview. But for the sake of biography, I just want to make sure everybody knows as much as I do. You told me that you are a Gen X woman and a mother of two teens

and have been married for 25 years. You met your husband in college and got your degree in environmental engineering and also are a photographer. You grew up Republican and voted Republican until approximately 2012 when you realized that you liked Obama and the candidates the GOP were bringing forward no longer aligned with your beliefs. You also said, I used to go to church growing up, but when we found out the Catholic church

had allowed for the abuse to continue, I could no longer in good conscience support the church. There's tons of stuff in there that is relevant to my interests that I'm curious to pick at. But before we got into this interview, I just went because, you know, you're one of the names that I recognize from my inbox just because you've replied to newsletters a bunch before. And I went and looked and saw that you had signed up for Tangle in November of 2020, which was now over two years ago, which was really cool for me because I didn't

even know if this project was going to last two years when I started it. But you are definitely one of the original readers. And I guess I'm curious to start, A, if you remember how you found Tangle and B, why the hell you keep reading it from your political perspective. I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, what you feel like you're getting out of it in that sense. I think I just needed like a no-nonsense kind of newsletter. And I'm sure I Googled and your name came up. And so I started reading it. I think I started paying for the subscription in November, but I think I was reading well before that.

I would say, you know, at least of 2020, because I didn't like the political weather out there at all. I needed something with no nonsense. And I actually, I enjoy when you put what the right is saying, what the left is saying. And then most of the time I read the bullets on those and then I just get right to where Isaac says, this is what I think. I appreciate that. Well, it's really cool to know that there are some people out there who have stuck around that long. I mean, for me, that's, that alone was just really cool. Just looking up your email address and seeing that it made me, I forget that it's been, you know, three years or whatever since we started this. So

it was kind of a rewarding thing that you were one of the names that randomly got pulled out of this digital hat. Oh, for sure. Yeah. You know, thinking about where to start in interviews like this, I mean, I'm, I guess the beginning is the only place and you obviously you had this little bit in your form about being raised going to the Catholic church and stuff. But I'd love to hear just a little bit about your childhood. I mean, where were you born? What was your life like growing up? Who is Miriam Stein? Who am I talking to here? I was born in Chicago. And then when I was about four, we came up to San Diego. And I lived there for a lot of my childhood growing up. And I've just been kind of in the 909 Inland Empire ever

since. I grew up with a two-parent family. They were married for almost 40 years until my dad passed away a few years ago. And very conservative. My parents were very Republican too. And for whatever reason, my mom is the same way that I am these days. We'll see what else. I just grew up a total normal childhood. I don't know what else to say. Well, I'm curious about the political alignment, especially. I mean, obviously, that's something that, you know, naturally piques my interest, but not a lot of people change their political affiliations, especially, you know, I mean, you say you're like a Gen X woman, you've been married for 25 years. And so for you, this happened 10 years ago, 15 years in your

marriage, you're well into adulthood. A lot of people kind of go through a political transformations, you know, they're 18, 19, 20. I'm curious, like what that experience was like for you. I mean, what happened that kind of prompted you to rethink that? I'll admit Donald Trump, for sure. I could not believe that the GOP was okay with that kind of candidate who had no morals, no scruples, you know, married X amount of times, cheat on his wife, you know, like the whole spectrum against what the conservative movement stood for. I just, I didn't like that. And, you know, I didn't like Bill Clinton either. It was hard to vote for Hillary in 2016, because I didn't like her either. But

she was the least of the two evils. Really quick on that. I mean, I think one of the things that's interesting about sort of like this background that you have for me was sort of the two evils. Really quick on that. I mean, I think one of the things that's interesting about sort of like this background that you have for me was sort of the religious component. And then what you're talking about now that he, you know, some a candidate like Trump sort of bucked a lot of the standards that you felt like maybe conservative Republicans and religious Republicans would would hold. Yeah, obviously, he maintained a lot of that support. I mean, what was that like in your personal life? I assume you know a lot of other conservatives and a lot of other people who go to church

and are religious. I mean, how did that play out for you? For a while, I probably stopped talking to them. It was tough. My in-laws are very conservative and I love my in-laws to death. But that's one thing we can't talk about anymore. You know, it was in 2016.

My mother-in-law would say, well, he's your president now. I'm like, yeah, I know. And I don't like him and I don't have to like him. It was tough for sure. There are some people I don't talk to anymore. Just based on the Facebook posts and the things that they say on there. It was just really, it was really tough to navigate through that. But I think I've kind of settled out. I know who my real friends are. My husband's been very supportive

of kind of this political change that I've gone through and he's not really political. And so we don't really talk about it, but I have, you know, a group of girlfriends that we hike all the time and that's all we talk about because it's just like, you know, they were all fairly conservative too. And then all of a sudden it's like, we don't know what this stands for anymore. And, you know, we're fighting more and more with the Democrats. And honestly, I hate politics. I don't like what it does to us. But I feel like I need to be part of it to help make this world a better place. Do you sense that like, this is a like, is there a political or ideological North Star for you? Like a few issues you really care

about? Or is it like, you felt sort of repulsed by some of the personalities that you were running into, you know, on the party? That's something that really interests me about people who kind of change their positions is, you know, you mentioned, obviously, Donald Trump. I mean, in your forum, you said 2012, you really liked Obama. I did. You know, I'm just, I guess I'm curious, like, if you feel like your heart changed, or you were won over on certain issues, like two or three big issues that really mattered to you, or you were sort of looking at these candidates thinking, I just can't stomach voting for this person. I definitely think it's like a whole, it's a lot of that,

a lot of the candidates that were being brought up. But there were also issues too. Like I've definitely changed my position on the LGBTQ society. And I, it really started when my teenage daughter said, well, everybody deserves love. And it's like, yeah, you're right. They deserve to be loved. They deserve to have a good life too. And who am I to get in the way of that? And definitely, yeah, I'm definitely pro-choice. That was really hard to stomach. And I've, you know, had lots of conversations with my daughter about it. She's 15 now. And we talk about, you know, the abortion stance. And I've always told her, you know, I'm, I'm actually kind of a pro-life person for me. And if anybody in my spectrum or anybody else wants to have the choice

to have an abortion, I'm all for that too. So I guess pro-choice, pro-life, I don't know how you describe that. Yeah, it's sort of a, I mean, first of all, I think a lot of people feel that way. I actually, you know, one of my sort of political predictions about the future is that I think the country may become more, quote unquote, pro-life in the sense that I think people are going to become more resistant to having abortions in their own personal life. I actually think that the pendulum is going to swing in that sense, but that there also simultaneously may be more support for kind of like the, quote unquote, pro-choice legal system. Because the sense that I get from talking to people is there's a lot more Americans

than I think we understand, who sort of, as you described it, are kind of pro-life for me, but pro-choice for thee. They're like, this is the decision I would make, but I also don't think I should force that decision onto other people. And yeah, I mean, it's interesting too, given your upbringing with the Catholicism, I mean, like the interesting too, given your upbringing with the Catholicism. I mean, like the standard pro-life profile you think of in America is like somebody who was raised in the Catholic church. That's also unusual too, to have that conversation with your daughter. I mean, one of the things I was going to ask you was about what it's like raising teenage kids in today's society. I can't imagine. It seems totally nuts to me. But how did that come up,

just by leaving the door open for the talk, and you felt like she kind of moved your position a little bit? Well, about the abortion, I've always had that stance. But for the LGBTQ spectrum, yeah, she really, she has lots of friends who their pronouns are they, them. And as someone else, you know, wants to be a transgender or not wants, sorry, she is a transgender. So it definitely opened up my eyes to the fact that these people, they're born this way and they have no choice. And why would they ask to go through these difficulties? You know, because society thinks it's just a choice.

Why would they put themselves through that? Why would they put themselves at risk for suicide and, you know, bullying and anything, everything else that goes with it. It's not a choice. It's just the way they are. Yeah. Do you find that the kids like you're, you know, the teenagers who are your kids age are, are sort of creating a really accepting environment for, for kids who are in the LGBTQ community? Because I can, I have like, personally, I have cousins who are, you know, between the ages of like 12 and 17 now, and it's nuts talking to them. I mean, like they're just so much more mature and open-minded than I was at that age. And the way that they kind of handle really difficult, complicated stuff like that is it's just very simple to them in a way that it was never to me. I mean, I was totally a punk. I've written about

this before. I called people gay as a slur and was much more kind of closed-minded to that when I was their age. And sometimes it's really eye-opening to me to have those conversations with them because I'm just like they already see the world in a really mature and progressive way in a way that like most adults I know, even liberal adults I know don't, which I found really interesting. Yes. To answer your question, I think they are a lot more accepting of it. But there is still bullying. It still happens for those same reasons that we all got bullied as kids growing up. They don't like different. And there's a lot of different out there. Yeah, there's a lot of different out there. Do you find that the kids your age, those age, that teenage years are really politically engaged too? Or is it just a social thing that they're

seeing this through, a social lens they're seeing those kinds of issues through? Or are they like wanting to talk to you about the presidential election or Trump or the stuff going on? I mean, I think that's sort of the big knack on a lot of kids, like teenagers too. Obviously, you have to be 18 to vote, but the youth vote is a big topic of conversation and how little a lot of people that age kind of care about politics is sort of the narrative, I think. Oh, I feel as a group, they're more political than when I was that age. I'm pretty sure when I turned 18, I didn't vote right away. I think the first election I voted in was with Clinton. I was more than 18. I was in college at that point. But yeah, I do believe that they're, they're more engaged. I think they see a lot of it on social media. parents are talking to their kids about politics and, you know, how to navigate the frustrating aspects of it. Yeah, I don't know what else to say about that. Yeah, no, I mean, it's a big

question, I think, for not just parents, but also now, like, you know, we've written a lot about social media companies and Tangle and the way they're handling it. And there's so many stories about the impacts I think social media stuff is having on kids who are in that age range. Do you at all sort of restrict like screen time and things like that? Is that something that you do as a parent and worry about for your kids? Like how much time they're spending on their phone, how much time they're spending on social media, that sort of thing? Yeah, restriction definitely is a thing in our house. So with our daughter who's 15,

we have been a little more lenient on that. And we do monitor her phone and it's definitely uncharted territory. We're still learning things and we're definitely uncharted territory. We're still learning things and we're definitely not perfect parents. I don't think anybody is, but like I said, I mean, I can't, for me personally, I mean,

I couldn't imagine sort of the challenge of navigating that right now. And, you know, with TikTok and Instagram and Twitter and Facebook, all that stuff alone. And then it's just like the, you know with tiktok and instagram and twitter and facebook all that stuff alone and then it's just like the you know i didn't get a phone till i was probably 17 in high school and now it's like i see people who are in fifth grade with them which is you know it seems totally nuts to me but it's almost like society can't function without that anymore. Like we need, you know, it's how everybody stays in touch and everything happens on the

phone. And it's just, um, it's a much more difficult time, I think, to sort of keep your kids insulated from certain things because they can access everything. I'm curious you are living in Yucaipa California which is not a place I'm totally familiar with I know a little bit about Big Bear Lake in that area because I have some family friends up there. But what's the political scene like out there? I mean, how do you fit in in that part of California? Because I think people think of California as being this great, you know, dark blue state, but it's not really. It's a lot more red and purple than I think a lot of people understand. But what's it like out there where you are? Oh, it's very red. Interesting. You know, freedom rallies every weekend for the last two years. A lot of flags. There was when Black Lives Matter movement started.

And when was that? 20? How long ago was that? Was that 2019 or 2020? 2020. Summer of 2020, I guess, was the big the big protests. Yeah. Yeah.

The people were out with their AK-47s or assault rifles trying to protect the businesses. And, you know, nothing ever came of it. But yeah, we're pretty red over here. I'm a blue dot in the red county in a blue state. That's what I tell my friends. That's pretty interesting. So what's that like? I mean, do you do you feel like you are sort of disguising yourself a little bit in

that environment? Are you open about your political views when you talk to neighbors or meet people? I mean, how does that go for you? I'm pretty open. Sometimes to the detriment of embarrassing my husband. Yeah. Because he does, you know, like I said before, he doesn't, he's not very political, but I'm pretty vocal about it. But I'd like to think that I'm not annoying about it. Like it doesn't it doesn't it consumed me for sure in 2020, but not so much today. Well, when you say you're vocal, I mean, what's like a situation where you're actually talking about your politics?

How does that play out in real terms for you? I don't instigate it, but I won't be quiet about it either. Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. And do you find you ever have productive political conversations? I mean, it's hard, I think, these days. That's hard. It's one of the big questions I get entangled. People ask me all the time for advice about talking to their uncle who is, you know, really conservative. They're really liberal or, you know, the uncle writes in and says, I have this, you know, non-binary, super progressive niece. I don't know how to talk to her about anything.

Do you have any advice about having these conversations? And it's like, you know, I do. I have some ideas about it, but it's not easy. And there aren't a lot of people doing it right now. Yeah, it's tough. I'm not going to change anybody's mind and no one's going to change mine. So I think if we start off the conversation knowing that, it definitely helps a little bit. And there's lots of times I just kind of, I walk away. They're allowed to have their beliefs and thank God that we live in a country where we

can have different beliefs. But it has opened eyes for other people. Like, for instance, my brother thought I was this ultra conservative person. And I think about 2020 was when he told me, I didn't realize this about you. And I was like, Oh, yeah. So he, he's pretty liberal. He's 10 years younger. So he's a gen, what is he? A millennial. He's a millennial. Yeah. So he and I definitely are political makeup is about the same, but I would say 10 years ago, it wouldn't be the same. 10 years ago, it wouldn't be the same. So I think having teenagers really opened up my mind to being open-minded about things. That's interesting. I mean, I think it's so interesting that element of this that you sort of go back to is that having kids has changed some of your political views, engaging with them and seeing them grow up. I mean, how would you have described yourself before that? I mean, where were you 20 years ago? What was like the

political identity you feel like you had before going through this change, it sounds like you went through? Oh, for sure. Conservative, Republican, Christian, all the above. But it was different back then. People I I thought, had more integrity about it and good morals. And I feel like the political makeup is not like that anymore. And that it's kind of sad that the integrity is gone. A lot of the integrity, not all of it, but a lot of it. It's hard for me. Sometimes I mean, I struggle because I wonder, like, is the integrity gone? Or was it kind of just never there? And we sort of see it in different ways. I mean, are there politicians today on the right side of the aisle that you feel

you identify with or have respect for? It sounds like you're more sort of a self described Democrat now. So I guess I'm curious, you know, if there's people you kind of crossed the line for. Oh, I still, I like George Bush. I like Mitt Romney. I think I voted for Bob Dole back in the day. I do like our, actually, I like our representative for our county, Jay Obernolte. But, you know, he voted against certifying the election. So it's tough to, I didn't vote for him in the midterm election because of that. But I feel that he's also done some good things for our county as well.

So it's tough to wrestle. But yeah, there's definitely some good Republicans still out there that I like. You mentioned, I guess, sort of the other element of this is the religious factor of it, which, you know, we really should do more writing about this entangle. And I think it's something I want to cover more is. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story

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The ways that religious beliefs, not just Christianity, but Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, across the board, the sort of like different political avenues they send people down, I think is really fascinating. Obviously, there's been a lot of writing in

recent years about evangelical Christianity and, you know, the political movements that have sort of come out of that. I'm curious what your experience has been like, you know, being raised Catholic and then kind of getting some distance from the church. I mean, how did that happen for you? And sort of where have you landed now in that regard? I guess I'm non-denominational now. I definitely, it's been quite a few years since the last time I went to church. But in the 90s, when that whole Catholic church scandal came out, it was hard to support our church from that point forward. And I also, I mean, as a kid growing up, I went to, you know, Christian Bible study with my friends every

Wednesday night. And I enjoyed, you know, studying the Bible and, you know, the fun activities that you do as a teenager, you know, with the Wednesday night Bible studies that I don't know, it's, it's tough when you see all the corruption and the abuse and everything that comes from any kind of church. It's not just the Catholic church. It's all, it's all religions that I've seen. It's just hard to support an organized religion. And I still feel that I'm religious and I believe in God. And, you know, I love the stories that are in the Bible, but I just I can't support a concrete brick and mortar church anymore. And did you see other people sort of leave the church around the time that you were? I mean, was that something you felt like you did alone? My mom definitely doesn't go to church anymore. You know, she was

raised Catholic. Her mother and her were very involved with, you know, Sunday school. And when my grandmother got a divorce, they excommunicated my grandmother. So that was the turning point for my mom. I still continued to go, not every Sunday, but I would definitely go from time to time. But I think my mom and I had kind of the both, we both had the same journey, just at different times in our lives. Interesting. And you mentioned you have some siblings too? Yeah, I have a brother. Okay. I don't think he has ever gone to church. I think by the time he was around, we had stopped going. And I don't even know if he was baptized.

I can't remember. That was so long ago. So your read on him, like you said, is he's much more liberal than you are and didn't really understand where you landed politically until recently, I guess. Yes, correct. Within the last few years, for sure. Got it. So you mentioned also, you know, degree in environmental engineering. I know you have

kids at home. Are you, did you ever pursue any career with that? Are you, how does that kind of impact your, I guess, maybe your political world, but also your day to day? I mean, environmental engineering is a, that's a big degree. And I'm sure you have a lot of opinions about a lot of government stuff that's happening based on that. Yes. Yes, I do. I've actually been with my company for 21 years now. I worked part time so I could stay at home with the kids. And now I just work from home like everybody else in America right now. And it's actually awesome. I love working from home. I do occasionally go into the office when

we have our staff meetings, but I've been with my company for 21 years. I'm a loyal person. I just stay with things for a very long time. So what kind of work do you guys do? We do environmental cleanup of gas stations, pipelines. We've done a lot of work in the Long Beach Harbor getting that cleaned up. We do geotech assessment, like a lot of the bridges and highways. We assess the soil before those are built or retrofitted. We do all, we do all worth of stuff. But my, my specialty is with underground storage tanks and remediating the soil and groundwater from that. Wow. From those that have leaked.

Yeah, that's a pretty big job. It seems like we have a lot of that in America right now. Oh, yeah. A ton of that sort of soil contamination. Do you find yourself kind of supportive of the regulatory framework that California is famous for and a lot of the environmental ways. I mean, that's obviously a huge point of contention, especially I imagine in the county you live in. I mean, what's your, what's your read on that? I 100% support it. I do know it drives a lot of, a lot of companies out of our state,

but there's a reason for that. They don't want to comply with the regulations and guidelines, and that's on them. If they want to move to Texas or Idaho or wherever, it sucks. Big companies moving out of California, but there's plenty of other companies that are doing business in California. We're a fairly wealthy state, very progressive. I do remember the smog alerts in the 70s when I was a kid, and we don't have too many of those anymore. And it's because of the Clean Air Act, a lot of the stuff they've done to limit the

exhaust from cars and trucks and all the other vehicles that are associated with that. So I 100% support it. Interesting. And in your work, I mean, do you feel like, I guess I'm maybe cynical about it, but it just seems like there's so much to do. I'm not cynical about the regulations. I'm cynical about like, it feels like every time we plug one hole, another one opens. I mean, what's your sense of, you know, the progress you guys are making in, you know, cleaning out contamination from groundwater and soil? I mean, that seems like such a massive job, especially after the whole industrial revolution and everything that happened in, you know, across the whole world, you know, I mean, it's I have some friends who are in that space. And it just seems like

you won't be out of work anytime soon. That's for sure. But that was actually going to be my answer. Yeah. Like, what's your experience like going on these jobs? You leave feeling like, you know, we, we made a big difference in this whatever one kilometer square area or wherever you guys are doing these cleanups? Yeah, for sure. We definitely have some immediate gratification in addressing a lot of the petroleum impacts that we have caused to our groundwater and waterways. and waterways. But there is also a long-term effect. And Mother Earth really has a fabulous way of taking care of contaminants through, they call it natural attenuation. It is a thing at some point. She has a way of correcting a lot of the mistakes that we make when it comes to leaking underground storage tanks and pipelines. But there are things that we can do that have immediate fixes, you know, like excavating the soil and putting in nutrients in the groundwater that help

feed up the breakdown process of those contaminants. You know, we just had that recent pipeline leak. I think it was the Keystone pipeline that had a really huge leak. I am sure that they're going to have to do a lot of type of technologies to clean up the immediate effects of that release. But there is also going to have to be some long-term measures that they're going to have to take for that. But I do believe that there's a lot of red tape that's a little bit frustrating when it comes to trying to clean up a site and trying to do better. California definitely has a lot of layers of regulation and it is frustrating at times for sure being an engineer and trying to get through all the red tape, but we still get through it and we still get the job done. 14,000 gallons of, you know, fuel or oil or gas or whatever it was.

How do we actually deal with that? That's something that's sort of even beyond my understanding. Like if your company's called in to handle that, you're saying there's all sorts of different ways that somebody has to go about cleaning that out. But the first thing that happens, you know, to a creek or a river like that is what, like all the fish and the animals that are there, the sort of underwater creatures are just killed off and damaged basically? Pretty much. I honestly haven't read anything about it, but that is a huge

release. And I would have to assume it was done over a certain period of time. It wasn't just something that happened overnight. So there's definitely going to be long-term effects of the petroleum that's moved through that area for however long it did move through. But yeah, there's definitely things that they can do. They can excavate, you know, of course, stop the leak. They can supplement the nutrients to help break down those components. But it will kill the poor fish and bugs and birds and that really sucks. And I don't like that. Yeah. I mean, it's funny, just before we spoke, I was curious about some of the stuff that you

put in your form. And I looked up Yucaipa, California, which is like, looks like one of the most beautiful places in the country. I mean, you're surrounded by mountains and desert and all that stuff. Do you feel like living in a place like that day to day kind of engenders you to sort of this more environmentally friendly mindset? I mean, I'm here in the concrete jungle. So sometimes I forget that there's all this beauty out there in the world that needs to be preserved. I think definitely living in California was a segue into wanting to go into that kind of industry. But yeah, I do love my town. It is beautiful. We've got a million trails, big bears an hour away, the beaches an hour away without traffic, two hours with traffic, but Joshua trees an hour away. It really, in the environment that we live

in, it is beautiful, and you don't want to see it get mucked up, for sure. So yeah, I think it definitely had an influence where I lived. Yeah, I'm interested too. I mean, I guess, you know, looking forward, you live in this state that's kind of leading the way on a lot of the environmental regulations that are happening across the country. I mean, from electric cars, air pollution, all the stuff that, you know, Governor Gavin Newsom is doing, a lot of the blue states in the country at least kind of follow his lead. Are there, you know, things that you are looking for, I guess, from the state government there that you're really hopeful about? I mean, are there like a couple of big issues for you on the environmental side of

things that kind of get you really excited about what the future might look like? I mean, I know that's a big question, but I guess I'm curious as someone, you know, you're in California, you have this background in environmental engineering, you're in California, you have this background in environmental engineering, you see the impacts of these oil spills and environmental contamination every day. I mean, what kind of government role do you see that you find is productive, that you support and feel like is an important part of the equation? feel like is an important part of the equation? It's a big question.

I'm interested to see this whole electrical car movement, how that's going to change the makeup of our state and our country. I like the movement, but I also have my apprehensions about it as well. The battery recycling, which from what I understand, what I read not too long ago, they're actually looking into a really effective way of recycling the batteries, which is great. But then there's also the mining of the materials. You know, we consume no matter what we do, we're always going to consume, we just have to be better, be better about consuming. have to be better, be better about consuming. So I am interested to see, you know, the reduced plastic use. I would like to see more of that. You know, they, they joke about it in California, we don't use straws anymore. It's like, okay, well, everything else is plastic. So why is it

just straws? You know, why aren't we using more paper bags instead of plastic bags? You know, why aren't we using more paper bags instead of plastic bags? You know, trees are a renewable source. They're super easy to grow. And I'm definitely interested on the consuming end of it and how we can help minimize our consumption for sure. You know, it just occurred to me in this whole environmental picture that given where you live, you've probably experienced some of the fires out west sort of firsthand, I imagine.

I'm curious what that has been like for you. I mean, I read about that stuff in the news. I remember it was actually during COVID, I think, a year and a half or two years ago that I was living in Brooklyn and there was all these fires happening out west, some in Southern California near you and then some in Colorado. And we woke up in Brooklyn one day and there was smoke in Brooklyn that had blown across the country from Colorado.

And I had gotten up in the morning and was walking down the street and was like, it looks like hazy outside. I can't understand what's going on. And then there were all these news reports, like the meteorologists in New York were talking about how this like huge plume of smoke had basically traveled across the entire country and then just gotten stuck in this little alleyway of Manhattan and Brooklyn and the

island and the rivers and the ocean and was just kind of sitting on top of us for a day. And it was kind of oppressive. It was like, you know, a little bit hard to breathe and your nose was itchy. And I was totally shocked by the experience. I'm curious if you've encountered that and kind of what it's been like for you guys, because there's been a lot of fires out there that way the last few years. Yeah, it's been really bad. I have lived in California pretty much my entire life. And we I've grown up to every summer, it's a fire season. You know, it starts, I don't know, June, July, when it starts drying out, and then it lasts until September, October. But I do remember that year was 2020. We had COVID, everything was shut down. We hiked a lot. That was my way of helping with the stress of COVID and not being able to do anything. You know,

my husband and I go to concerts a lot and everything was shut down and canceled and we were just at home doing nothing. And in September, we had a really bad fire here and it, it really sucked because we couldn't go hiking anymore and it was overcast and it was, you know, brown outside and you can't breathe and it, it sucks. But you know, being a Californian, we're, we are used to it, but it has been bad the last couple of summers for sure. This summer was, was a good summer. Interesting. So it wasn't that bad this past summer in terms of the day to day, what you

experienced? Yeah, no, the summer was pretty mild, I think because everything burned off the last two years. Yeah. And what, you just stay inside when that happens? I mean, how do you handle that? You stay inside and you go to the beach, you go to the mountains, you try to get out of it. Yeah. Interesting. All right. Well, listen, Miriam, we're coming up on an hour here. I want to give you, I guess, a last minute for two things. A, you know, I don't know how many people are going to listen to this, but you got a few thousand Tangle readers ears at least about the current state of the country and the political world. And if you have anything you

want to touch on that we haven't touched on, I want to give you a chance to do that. And I also want to give you a chance, you know, if you have any questions for me about Tangle and about, you know, my work, I very much enjoy putting some other people in the hot seat for once, but it would only be fair to kind of open the door for that. And I think I'm going to try and do that in these conversations. So I also want to give you that chance too. I honestly don't, I think we've touched on all the things that I wanted to discuss today, but I am curious to know what's the five year plan for Tangle? Oh, man, that's what you're gonna do. That's a good question. Well, the five

year plan for Tangle. I mean, look, I have. I've said this to a few people have asked sort of similar long term questions, I guess, you know, I think I have no desire to be the next CNN or Fox News or turn into some giant newsroom. I really like having a small team and I like being my own boss. And I'm really interested in sort of trying to preserve some of the original ethos of what we have. I mean, I know anytime something grows and gets big, any kind of business or endeavor or project, it'll never be the way it was in the very early days. So far, that evolution for me has been really nice, I think, for Tangle. But yeah, so five years from now, I mean, A, I hope our audience is way bigger. I mean, I never imagined we'd have

53 or 4,000 people on the mailing list, which is what we have now. But now that I'm here, I just want more. That's impressive. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, it feels good. And I hope to double it or triple it or quadruple it because I genuinely do think it's a good

thing for people. I mean, the feedback I'm getting is strong enough that I feel like it's a positive. And then I guess from a business perspective, I mean, I want to hire a few of the people who are helping me part-time, bring them on full-time and let them do this as their job, which would be really exciting. And I think there's a possibility to maybe branch out and sort of franchise the brand a little bit. There are sort of a couple of different directions to do that. One is to go to other countries, which I get probably that request once a week from readers who are like, hey, I live in France. Does this exist

here for French politics? And I have to say no, but maybe I could find a French reporter who could do because the sort of left-right dichotomy exists in a lot of these other Western countries, Canada and England and France, places like that, even in all throughout Latin America. So there's interest in that. And then there's the swing states, which I think you could also do it. I mean, I think I could write a newsletter just about Pennsylvania politics. I live here and it's crazy. There's drama all the time. And there's it's obviously really politically divided. And, you know, the 2024 Senate race that's going to happen here is going to be really interesting. The presidential race will be really important here. And then the last idea, I guess, would be to jump genres, jump verticals, which is like do tangle sports or something where it's one big sports debate every day, which I think would be

really fun and people would probably read. But it's just sort of so far outside what we're doing now. It's kind of hard to imagine going that route. Yeah, that's sort of the rough plan. I mean, I still feel like we're perfecting what we're doing and I want to grow this podcast along with the newsletter and all that. But I think there are some cool opportunities to sort of take it in a few different directions and expand a little bit once I feel like this core product is in a really good place. And that's kind of how I think about it. Well, I think you've really done a good job.

I read your newsletter almost every single day. I love that you say, it's a 13-minute read. I'm like, okay, so I could do this in six. But I really enjoyed your newsletter. Honestly, my favorite part is at the very bottom, your good news bit. And I think I comment most of the time on that, because it's just it's a feel good piece. And I really like that. But I it's been fun seeing you grow. It's been really cool, for sure. And I'm sure it's been a mostly good experience for you. I'm sure there's been growth headaches and everything else that goes along with, you know, your 50,000 subscribers.

But I am interested to see how you grow further out of this. Thanks. I appreciate it. It has really been overall a super positive experience. And this I do say often is I when I came into it, I did not expect to become kind of mission oriented in the sense that like, I just thought the media sucked and I was trying to fix it. And like, here is a good idea for how to deliver the political news and, you know, explore these debates. But now I've become a lot more like, I think people really

want something like this. And I think that this sort of status quo media is driving everybody insane and creating so much stress and anxiety and polarization. And so I'm like more gung ho now than I was in the beginning about like, this thing is good. And I want more people to see it, which has been kind of an interesting experience for me to, to feel a little bit more mission oriented in the work. So yeah, overall, it's really good. And I thank you. I really appreciate the kind words. And thank you very much for subscribing and sticking around all these years. You are like I said, you're one of the originals. So it's very much appreciated. Yeah, I'm going to be writing now more often. Yeah, exactly. Well, you've got my email, you know where to find me. Miriam,

thank you so much for the time. And yeah, looking forward to doing this again sometime down the road. I would love to. Let me know if you ever need some more information on thermal engineering. I will. Now I know you'll be my go-to expert. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. All right. Have a good one. You too. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited by Zosia Warpea. Our script is edited by Sean Brady, Ari Weitzman, and Bailey Saul. Shout out to our interns, Audrey Moorhead and Watkins Kelly, and our social media manager, Magdalena Vekova, who created our podcast logo. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75.

For more from Tangle, check out our website at www.tangle.com. Can we make a battery so powerful it can run the next generation of renewable energy? Thank you. and more, building a Western Canadian supply chain to bring them to the world. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions. To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca forward happens here. Based on Charles Yu's award-winning book, Interior Chinatown follows the story of Willis Wu, a background character trapped in a police procedural who dreams about a world beyond Chinatown. When he inadvertently becomes a witness to a crime, Willis begins to unravel a criminal web, his family's buried history, and what it feels like to be in the spotlight. Interior Chinatown is streaming November 19th, only on Disney+.